1. Speaking Without a Net: How to Master Impromptu Communication

Speaker 0:00 [upbeat music]

Speaker 0:01 Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, a podcast designed to hone your communication skills. My name is Matt Abrahams. I'm a lecturer here at Stanford's Graduate School of Business, where I teach strategic communication. And I'll be inviting my colleagues and experts in to talk about best practices you can use to become a more confident, authentic, and compelling communicator. When we think about our communication at work, we tend to focus on our presentations and meeting contributions that we know we should spend time preparing and practicing for. But if you think about it, most of our professional communication is spontaneous in nature. It's providing feedback in the moment, answering questions, introducing people. These spur of the moment communication events can be as important, if not even more important, than our planned high-stakes communications. For most people, these impromptu situations are quite challenging. I am thrilled to invite two experts and good friends here today to talk about how we can

Speaker 1:02 become more comfortable and confident in these spur of the moment situations. Let me start by introducing Adam Tobin. Adam's a senior lecturer in film and media studies here at Stanford University, and he's a teacher in continuing studies. Dan Klein is also a lecturer at Stanford, both at the Graduate School of Business, as well as theater and performance studies. And Dan also is an instructor at the d.school. Adam and Dan, thanks for being here.

Speaker 1:27 Thank you.

Speaker 1:27 Thank you.

Speaker 1:28 Yeah.

Speaker 1:28 Glad to be here.

Speaker 1:29 We all are involved with situations where the students we teach or the clients we coach, uh, feel challenged by spontaneous speaking. Can you share a little bit about where you think that challenge comes from? Why is this type of speaking so hard?

Speaker 1:43 There's a moment when we feel that the pressure is on. It's like everyone's attention is on us, and we have to perform. And the moment we have that self-conscious awareness, it's like our brain starts to short-circuit. We, we, we go into a different set of systems. We're thinking about ourself. We're thinking about how it looks, how we did. Sometimes we see this in, in, with improvisers specifically. There's another problem where if, if the pressure's on and you think you did really well, that also short-circuits your ability [laughs] to be present and in the moment.

Speaker 2:14 And it's amazing, people can shut down-

Speaker 2:16 Mm-hmm

Speaker 2:17 ... or sometimes people can talk too much.

Speaker 2:19 Yeah.

Speaker 2:19 Or they can get, you know, their voice can get high or their voice can get low. It's like their mind-body is running away from them.

Speaker 2:26 Yeah.

Speaker 2:26 It's doing everything except kind of what they need to do in the moment. But we are expert at that because for most of the time, we're improvising, you know? Nobody wakes up-

Speaker 2:38 Yeah

Speaker 2:38 ... and writes the script of the day, and everyone else goes along with that script.

Speaker 2:42 Yeah.

Speaker 2:42 We're actually experts at improvising. It's just when we get put on the spot.

Speaker 2:48 Yeah. And when Adam says we are experts, he doesn't mean me and Adam.

Speaker 2:51 Right.

Speaker 2:51 He means, like, humanity. Like, as-

Speaker 2:53 We are experts, by the way

Speaker 2:53 ... like human... We are experts, by the way. [laughs]

Speaker 2:55 That's true. You are. That's why you're here.

Speaker 2:56 We just wanted to make sure.

Speaker 2:57 But everyone-

Speaker 2:58 We all are experts.

Speaker 2:59 Right.

Speaker 2:59 And we see this in, in, in lots of high-stakes situations. I think of athletes who, who for years have been practicing what they do, but in that high-stakes situation, that pitch, that putt, where all the sudden they, they, they fail or they struggle because of that over-awareness that, that you're talking about. You know, before we start getting into specific tips and, and tricks about how to manage in these situations, I really think a lot of what you guys teach has to do with mindset and approach.

Speaker 3:28 Mm.

Speaker 3:28 Would you guys like to talk about that, that approach that you take?

Speaker 3:32 One of my favorite stories is that when I first moved to the Bay Area, before GPS, that's how ancient it was, I would go to San Francisco, and every time I would get lost, every single time. And it wasn't until the seventh or eighth time that I got lost, and I looked up and I said, "I don't know where I am, but I've been lost here before."

Speaker 3:54 Mm.

Speaker 3:55 "And if I just make a right and a right, I'll get back on the freeway, and I know how to get home." And for me, that was a mindset shift.

Speaker 4:04 Mm.

Speaker 4:04 That was, I don't need to have all the answers. I need to be present enough to kind of find a way to solve the answers.

Speaker 4:12 Mm.

Speaker 4:12 You know, I need to be okay enough, comfortable enough being uncomfortable, that I can plug in. And our mentor, Patricia Ryan Madson, who wrote this great book, Improv Wisdom, when I told her that story, she said, "No, no, no, the, you've missed the point. The point is to get lost on purpose-

Speaker 4:30 Yeah

Speaker 4:30 ... and discover what you find." And for me, that was another mindset shift.

Speaker 4:34 I lo- I love that. I've, I've been trying to run a little bit more in my life.

Speaker 4:38 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4:38 This is, I probably started running after GPS, so-

Speaker 4:41 [laughs]

Speaker 4:42 [laughs]

Speaker 4:42 Um, and I find that it's really exciting to go out and try to get a little bit lost.

Speaker 4:48 Right.

Speaker 4:48 I was running near my house the other day in Oakland, and I, I was gonna go the way I know to get home, and I thought, "Well, I'll just, I'll just get a little bit lost." And I turned right, and literally half a block they'd made a native plants park in between two streets. It was 10 yards away from where I was.

Speaker 5:05 Right.

Speaker 5:05 And I had a walk in nature, completely transported, and I would've never had that if my mindset wasn't get a little bit lost.

Speaker 5:12 Yeah.

Speaker 5:13 Like, take the slightly less traveled path.

Speaker 5:15 And in speaking, if you're present, if you go-

Speaker 5:18 Yeah

Speaker 5:18 ... just a little bit someplace you hadn't gone before, it may feel terrifying at first, but you're only gonna discover new things that way.

Speaker 5:26 That, that I think is really the crux of, of what hinders a lot of people in these situations is, is that ability to let go. There is such pressure to do it right.

Speaker 5:36 Yeah.

Speaker 5:36 The expectation is that I've got, I've been asked to do this, or I need to do this, and I want to do it right. And I know in your experience and in a lot of the improvisation that you bring to the work you do, letting go of the getting it right is really important. So can you share some ideas about how we get out of our own way? There's a wonderful saying that comes from the world of improv, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, but this notion of dare to be dull.

Speaker 6:01 Yeah.

Speaker 6:02 And when I, I have the audacity to be in front of my MBA students and say, "Dare to be dull," and, and it sucks the air right out of the room because I immediately have to follow it up with why. And, and, and would one of you like to help articulate why daring to be dull is so liberating?

Speaker 6:18 It's exactly that. It's liberating 'cause it takes the pressure off. We are so driven to be interesting. Our, our mentor, Patricia Ryan Madson, she had a mentor in improvisation. It was Keith Johnstone, so he's like our grand mentor.

Speaker 6:31 [laughs]

Speaker 6:31 And he, he said-

Speaker 6:32 Great, old, wise

Speaker 6:34 ... he said the- these, like, our fear of being seen as unoriginal is one of the most inhibiting fears that we carry, and so the n- the idea of like dare to be dull or be obvious. Be obvious is the most powerful creative mantra that there is. He said, "When you're trying to be original, you sound like everyone else trying to be original. But when you're obvious, you're yourself, and that's what's genuine. And if the obvious thing you say is what everyone else was thinking, then they'll just think you're brilliant for saying it. And if your obvious thing is different, then that's actually genuinely original."

Speaker 7:09 Right. Right, and that obvious thing is, is kind of your voice, right? Um, but it's also a, it's also true. You're not putting on any kind of-

Speaker 7:19 Yeah

Speaker 7:19 ... fake version of yourself to try to impress people. You're actually dealing with what's going on, what's in your head, what your reaction to the thing is.

Speaker 7:29 There's another message that, that we got from Keith Johnstone and from Patricia that I've personally found really powerful, and I use it in my teaching all the time, and that is shoot for average and fail cheerfully.

Speaker 7:44 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 7:44 And when I tell students that, especially here at Stanford, these high-achieving students, I can tell that they don't really believe it.

Speaker 7:51 [laughs]

Speaker 7:52 They laugh. They, they're sort of guarded, and they're still sort of holding themself back. But over the course of 10 weeks of practicing doing this, of, of doing it with other people, of getting the, the experience of that playful support, being able to fail and have it still work out, I start to see the armor crack. I see them kind of emerge and show up as themselves, which is something that they'd been holding back.

Speaker 8:19 There's so much pressure to be outstanding and original and, and, you know, break the paradigm and-

Speaker 8:26 Yeah

Speaker 8:27 ... the truth is that we can't actually get to those spaces if we're protecting ourselves.

Speaker 8:33 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 8:34 We need to allow ourselves to play and discover and be authentic. I think those skills can be learned over time. You know, you can, as, as Dan said, the more you do it, the more you tap into something kind of true-

Speaker 8:48 Yeah

Speaker 8:49 ... instead of trying to wow everybody with-

Speaker 8:52 Yeah

Speaker 8:52 ... this false version. I really think this is critical to take the time to understand how much pressure we put on ourselves and how much judging we do of ourselves that gets in the way of us actually being able to do what it is we want to do.

Speaker 9:09 Yeah.

Speaker 9:09 And that notion of reflecting on what happens if it doesn't go well, accepting the failure, really is liberating. We are certainly not saying that this is the only way to communicate. I, all of us agree th- there are situations where we need to do what we traditionally do, prepare, plan, the wording has to be right. But to have flex these other muscles and be able to, to have another approach so we can choose in certain situations to turn off the evaluation and the judging and act in another way. Well, in Patricia's book, in the opening she says, you know, "When I go to a surgeon, I certainly want a surgeon who is prepared and-" Yeah "... schooled up and knows what they're doing, but I also want if something goes wrong for them to be able to be present and-" Yeah "... improvise." You know, also I would like that surgeon to be able to talk to me about [laughs] about what's going on. Yeah. I think if you get expert enough in your material, then that frees you up to be more connected, more conversational because you know deep down- Mm-hmm ... I know this. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 10:19 Right.

Speaker 10:19 You know? Sometimes we'll do a exercise where we'll have somebody tell the story of their name, just some story about their name, first name, middle name, last name, whatever, or tell a story about what they did this weekend, and remind them that when you're an expert on the material, you don't have to have every word perfectly staged. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Speaker 10:40 Right.

Speaker 10:40 If you build a comfort in your material, then you can be a little more free-flowing in how you present it. Being present oriented is really critical in what I'm hearing us discuss. Yeah. And, and I know a lot of improvisation requires or invites that kind of present orientation. So I'd like to hear from each of you a bit about how present orientation helps in spontaneous moments, and also let's include in that this notion of listening. Many of us in a Q&A situation where people are asking us questions or asking for our feedback feel that in that moment we are being challenged, that we are, that we are being, uh, evaluated. And I know- Attacked ... attacked in some cases. And I know improv has a lot to say about this notion of offers and opportunities. Do you wanna make mention of that? I think that reframing these situations as, as a positive then, uh, versus a negative can make a big difference. Yeah. I mean, one of the improviser's mantras is that there are always offers coming at us from all different directions and that we should notice those offers. So an improviser goes on stage with absolutely nothing planned, and just the posture of their partner coming on stage will say, "Ah, that person is just a little slumped," or, "That person is a little proud." And I'll notice that, and I'll treat it as an offer, and now I'll have a sense of what we're beginning to do on stage. Mm-hmm. So there are these offers everywhere, and our audiences for sure are giving us offers all the time.

Speaker 12:11 Yeah. When an au- in the moment when an audience member is challenging, when they ask a question that might have an aggressive tone to it, something that might put you on the defensive, especially if you're not That confident about that specific area. One of the things that I learned as a facilitator, I was taught and I've seen it happen over and over again, that person is the most engaged.

Speaker 12:33 [laughs]

Speaker 12:33 That's what they're showing you. They are engaged-

Speaker 12:35 Oh, that's great

Speaker 12:35 ... and they are the best opportunity. It's not a fight. You're not gonna fight with them, but they're an opportunity, so take that energy, get delighted. Whenever something goes wrong on the improv stage, improvisers just get excited. They lo- they get, their eyes light up and they go, "Oh, good. What can we do with this?"

Speaker 12:50 It's live. It's an opportunity. It's new information.

Speaker 12:54 I-

Speaker 12:54 Yeah

Speaker 12:54 ... I am surprised that, that I'm the one that has to say this, but yes and.

Speaker 12:59 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 12:59 Yeah.

Speaker 12:59 Isn't that what it's all about?

Speaker 13:00 Yeah.

Speaker 13:00 Yeah.

Speaker 13:01 Right.

Speaker 13:02 So someone challenging you, someone being sort of negative or, or, or a, a problem, we're instantly reframing that, and I've seen it many times. The person who has the most challenging question is most likely to be your champion. They're the one who is gonna be your biggest supporter when you work with them and are able to engage and turn around. The other thing I learned was when they ask a, a question that has a lot of energy behind it, don't answer. Say, "Tell me more," or say, "What thoughts do you have about that?" Like, let them keep talking 'cause sometimes you're just misinterpreting that negative energy. It's just they're fired up in another way.

Speaker 13:38 And the other thing, this, this is a, a story I tell in the class that Matt and I teach together. There was a time where I was pitching a TV show, and the person I pitched it to said to me, "Tell me why this isn't a sci-fi story."

Speaker 13:53 [laughs]

Speaker 13:54 And I, [laughs] I thought, "This isn't a sci-fi story. It never occurred to me as..."

Speaker 13:59 [laughs]

Speaker 13:59 Like, maybe there's some element.

Speaker 14:01 Right.

Speaker 14:01 Um, and, and I said, "W- why do you say that?" And it turned out that that person's boss had been burned by the last three sci-fi stories that they had made. What this person was doing was actually asking me for ammunition-

Speaker 14:17 Yeah

Speaker 14:17 ... that he could then take to his boss to sell my story. You know, he was solving a problem-

Speaker 14:24 Yeah

Speaker 14:24 ... that I didn't even know existed.

Speaker 14:26 Yeah.

Speaker 14:26 And so rather than seeing that question as an attack, see it as this person is bringing information from, like, outside of my head space, right? Like, I wasn't aware of this. By bringing that question, he's bringing his concerns, and he was actually trying to help me.

Speaker 14:46 What I love so much about that story is it brings together many of the things we talked about. You, you, you had to be present in the moment-

Speaker 14:52 Right

Speaker 14:52 ... to, to see that that's what was going on. You had to take the offer that he was giving you and see it as an offer, that there was something of value there. So you really had to be present. You had to listen and have that mindset.

Speaker 15:03 And I did paraphrase. I said, or I asked a question back, as Dan said.

Speaker 15:07 Yeah.

Speaker 15:07 You know, "Tell me more. Why? Where is this coming from?" And it turned out the deeper source-

Speaker 15:14 Mm-hmm

Speaker 15:14 ... was something useful to both of us.

Speaker 15:16 Mm-hmm. I think for folks who are, find themselves in situations where they're handling objections or taking questions, this advice and guidance is critical. You have to listen. You have to be open. You have to see how this is now an opportunity to expand and extend versus to just defend and entrench.

Speaker 15:34 I mean, one thing that was very powerful that I learned was from you, Matt, which is to make this into a conversation rather than a performance.

Speaker 15:43 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Speaker 15:43 And that mindset shift of I'm presenting, I'm in front of a group, but it's much more like I'm in a conversation-

Speaker 15:50 Mm-hmm

Speaker 15:50 ... where I'm putting information out, you're giving information back, I'm taking that in and, and moving it forward. And that's a way to kind of demystify or take the anxiety out of-

Speaker 16:02 Mm

Speaker 16:02 ... these, these situations.

Speaker 16:03 Absolutely. Being conversational always, I think, is beneficial. We've talked about a lot of really interesting, useful skills that people can use to feel more comfortable speaking in a spontaneous way. I'm curious if, if both of you would be willing to be a little spontaneous. We end each-

Speaker 16:21 No

Speaker 16:21 ... of these podcasts- [laughs]

Speaker 16:22 No, no, no.

Speaker 16:23 No what?

Speaker 16:23 No, we talked about this.

Speaker 16:24 Right.

Speaker 16:24 No, not this.

Speaker 16:25 All right, so, so indulge me then.

Speaker 16:28 I mean, yes, and.

Speaker 16:29 Yes, and.

Speaker 16:30 Yes, so I'm gonna ask each of you three questions that we end each podcast with. So le-

Speaker 16:34 Okay

Speaker 16:34 ... we'll alternate back and forth.

Speaker 16:36 Okay.

Speaker 16:36 So, and we'll switch who goes first so y- so one of you will truly be being spontaneous. So Dan, I'm gonna start with you. If you were to capture the best communication advice you've ever received as a five to seven word presentation slide title, what would it be?

Speaker 16:53 Adam already said it earlier. I just wanna pull it back in.

Speaker 16:56 Yeah.

Speaker 16:56 It is not about you.

Speaker 16:59 Nice. Very good. Adam, same question to you. What five to seven words would be on your slide title?

Speaker 17:04 I was gonna say that.

Speaker 17:04 That was yours?

Speaker 17:05 It was mine.

Speaker 17:05 [laughs]

Speaker 17:05 It's gonna be, "It's not about you. It's about them."

Speaker 17:08 Oh.

Speaker 17:08 Oh, okay. We'll, we'll give you credit.

Speaker 17:10 All right.

Speaker 17:10 That's all right.

Speaker 17:10 Yeah.

Speaker 17:11 That's all right.

Speaker 17:11 [laughs]

Speaker 17:11 So, so Adam-

Speaker 17:12 So I'll do, yes and

Speaker 17:12 ... since you were a-

Speaker 17:13 Yes and

Speaker 17:13 ... a little-

Speaker 17:14 It's about them

Speaker 17:14 ... less original-

Speaker 17:15 Yeah

Speaker 17:16 ... uh, we'll give you the q- question number two.

Speaker 17:17 But I was present and average.

Speaker 17:19 [laughs]

Speaker 17:19 And who-

Speaker 17:20 And I shot for average, and I failed cheerfully.

Speaker 17:22 [laughs] Who is a communicator that you admire and why?

Speaker 17:25 You know who I really enjoy is, uh, is Trevor Noah, the, the new, um, not new-

Speaker 17:31 Newish

Speaker 17:31 ... it's been years now-

Speaker 17:32 Right

Speaker 17:32 ... um, host of The Daily Show, and his autobiography audiobook-

Speaker 17:37 Mm

Speaker 17:37 ... is just amazing.

Speaker 17:38 Mm.

Speaker 17:38 But what I like about him is a mix of he does seem always present. He seems always him. You know, you really-

Speaker 17:47 Mm-hmm

Speaker 17:47 ... feel his voice, but he can speak with authority. He can speak sometimes crassly or glibly or sometimes, like, really kind of profoundly. Um, and so I enjoy the range that he brings, and yet it's always him. Uh, it's-

Speaker 18:05 So that authenticity.

Speaker 18:06 Yeah, yeah, and specificity and, and naturalness. Yeah, I really enjoy watching him.

Speaker 18:12 So Dan, who's a communicator that you admire and why?

Speaker 18:14 I'm gonna go a little bit obscure here. Um, almost 20 years ago, I went to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. There's a British comedian storyteller named Daniel Kitson, who was hosting, uh, there was an event called Late and Live, and Late and Live was notorious because it was at midnight, and the crowd would be packed, and it was ... And you get a random collection of stand-up comics, and they were handling hecklers, just pure, like, that was the culture of that environment. And Daniel was the host of it, and he was so masterful at playing with what people would shout out. He would disarm them so easily. He was so present, not high status, not aggressive, very calm and comfortable, but so comfortable in his own skin, and he would name exactly what was there in the room.

Speaker 19:06 That's cool. That's cool. So usually the third question that I, that I ask, ask the person to give three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe, but I'm gonna turn this into a little bit of an improv game. So instead of each of you telling three, let's each, and I'll play as well, say one ingredient that you would put in the recipe. So Adam, what's, what's one thing you would put in?

Speaker 19:26 Cinnamon.

Speaker 19:27 Oh, excellent. [laughs]

Speaker 19:28 No, I'm sorry. No, I'm sorry. Um, uh, like, y- how do I say this? You build up a trust in yourself over time, and by, by putting yourself out there in safer ways, and then increasingly you get more and more comfort. I think, I think ultimately having some trust in yourself is-

Speaker 19:49 Excellent

Speaker 19:49 ... is a really powerful ingredient.

Speaker 19:51 Dan?

Speaker 19:52 Here's something we haven't quite talked about, but it fits into everything. Plan the talk, be ready, have-

Speaker 19:57 Yeah

Speaker 19:57 ... do, do the research, get, think about the audience and their needs, but in the moment when you're delivering, use an opportunity to pay attention. Like, meet people beforehand in the room, have some quick conversations, listen to the speaker right before you, and use something from the room in your talk. You don't have to change everything you're gonna do, but reference something that's come up on that day, in that moment, so that your talk is particular to that space and that, and that instant in time.

Speaker 20:25 Just so, I, I like it, the, the, this notion of trust yourself, be ready, and I would add to this, have fun. We put a lot of pressure on ourselves.

Speaker 20:34 Yeah.

Speaker 20:34 I'll never forget, when I went for my first martial arts black belt, uh, somebody I trust and a mentor, right before I went to do the test, he looked at me and said, "Have fun." And I was in total, utter shock. How can this be fun? This is, this is something that's gonna be torturous. But taking that approach really made a big difference. I think those three ingredients would make for a wonderful spontaneous speaker. Thank you for that, and thank you for joining today. I really hope that people listening in take to heart the advice

Speaker 21:04 that we gave. It's about the approach you take. It's about having that open mindset, being present, listening, relying on structure, trusting in yourself. Taken together, those are w- the skills that will help somebody become a better spontaneous speaker. Thank you, guys.

Speaker 21:22 Thank you.

Speaker 21:22 Thank you.

Speaker 21:24 You've just listened to Think Fast, Talk Smart, a podcast produced by Stanford's Graduate School of Business. For more information and episodes, visit gsb.stanford.edu, or subscribe to our show wherever you get your podcasts. You can find us on social media at Stanford GSB.