69. Feeling Nervous? How Anxiety Can Fuel Better Communication

Matt Abrahams 0:00 How we approach our communication and how we approach others when we're nervous about our communication can make a tremendous difference in feeling confident and portraying that confidence. [upbeat music] I'm Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. I am really excited today to chat with Kelly McGonigal. Kelly is a lecturer at Stanford GSB who teaches a class on presentation and communication skills for academics. She is also the best-selling author of The Willpower Instinct, The Upside of Stress, and her latest book is The Joy of Movement: How Exercise Helps Us Find Happiness, Hope, Connection, and Courage. Welcome, Kelly. Thanks for being here. I am super excited to get time with you.

Kelly McGonigal 0:53 Oh, thank you for having me. I know we have a lot to talk about. I think we have a lot of common passions.

Matt Abrahams 0:58 Absolutely. So let's go ahead and get started. You have so many interesting and exciting areas that you look into and explore. I look forward to talking about all of them. But I'd like to start where I first came to know you and your work, like millions of people, and I mean, like, 29 millions of people. I watched your TED Talk, How to Make Stress Your Friend. We've addressed the topic of anxiety management and communication several times on this podcast, and I'm just curious to get your take on how we can manage anxiety and leverage the benefits that it has for our communication.

Kelly McGonigal 1:30 Oh, leverage the benefits of anxiety for communication. Okay, well, let me start by saying I'm someone who was born anxious, so I come to this sincerely-

Matt Abrahams 1:38 Mm-hmm

Kelly McGonigal 1:39 ... and in a bit of desperation, right? So not one of those people who's like, "Oh, I've never been nervous, and therefore I'll teach other people how not to be nervous." It's more, "I know what it's like to have a panic attack, so let's figure out how to stay engaged with life-

Matt Abrahams 1:50 Mm-hmm

Kelly McGonigal 1:50 ... even when anxiety is, uh, a part of your life." And I'd say, so since you said the benefit of it, I think that for me, what I have come to value about anxiety is it's a sign that I care.

Matt Abrahams 2:04 Mm-hmm.

Kelly McGonigal 2:05 So, you know, for example, when I start to feel anxious now, I will say to myself, "My heart is in it," which is a kind of a mindset reset. You know, I can feel my heart pounding maybe, or I feel other stuff happening in my body, and saying my heart is in it-

Matt Abrahams 2:21 Mm-hmm

Kelly McGonigal 2:21 ... is a way of embracing that one of the reasons I have anxiety is not because my nervous system is broken or, you know, I'm a, a person who just can't face life. I have anxiety in moments that matter where I recognize that something is at stake and I want to contribute or I want to do my best. I want to serve. I want to enjoy life. When you come to value that anxiety as a signal of meaning often or a signal of caring, then the benefit is in staying wholehearted, so that in that moment I don't have to say to myself, "Kelly, if you don't calm down, you're gonna blow it," or, "Kelly, why are you anxious?" You know, "What's wrong with you?" I don't have to get into that self-talk. I can instead double down on the caring. I can think about who and what I care about, why this matters to me. Maybe I can imagine the best possible outcome.

Matt Abrahams 3:17 Mm-hmm.

Kelly McGonigal 3:17 And then I can also use the energy that often comes with anxiety. I've come to recognize anxiety as a physical state-

Matt Abrahams 3:26 Mm-hmm

Kelly McGonigal 3:26 ... that actually really does serve me when I am in a role that I'm meant to be in.

Matt Abrahams 3:33 Mm-hmm.

Kelly McGonigal 3:33 So, for example, teaching.

Matt Abrahams 3:35 Right.

Kelly McGonigal 3:35 If I don't get anxious before I teach a class, I mean any class, a class I've taught a thousand times before-

Matt Abrahams 3:41 Right

Kelly McGonigal 3:41 ... if I'm not feeling anxious right before it or even when I'm walking over to teach it, there's something wrong. It's almost like I'm dissociated from the fact that this is what I was born to do. I prepared really hard for it. I really want to connect with my students. If I'm not feeling that, something's off, because I've learned that I can actually trust myself to use that energy. I know that that energy, like, my body is now a vehicle for it.

Matt Abrahams 4:09 Right.

Kelly McGonigal 4:09 And that comes in part from practice, a lot of practice, a lot of preparation, and then this developing self-trust.

Matt Abrahams 4:16 I really like how you literally embody the notion of greeting your anxiety.

Kelly McGonigal 4:22 Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams 4:22 And the mantra that, you know, my heart's in it is so powerful because one of the first signs people report is their heart's pounding and it distracts them. But if you embrace that and say, "Hey, this means that this, I care about this," and it even extends to, "I care about the audience that I'm in front of."

Kelly McGonigal 4:39 Yeah.

Matt Abrahams 4:39 And I hear you about getting nervous about something that's important and how it, it, it clues me into this is meaningful for me, and I also get nervous before I teach, and I now look for it like you do, and if I didn't have it, I would be a different-

Kelly McGonigal 4:50 It's never happened, but, like, once or twice I've had a class where I was feeling kind of numb before-

Matt Abrahams 4:54 Yeah

Kelly McGonigal 4:54 ... and man, that, things did not go well.

Matt Abrahams 4:56 Right, right. It's either one I've done before or something was distracting and you, you missed that.

Kelly McGonigal 5:00 And I wasn't there.

Matt Abrahams 5:01 Yeah.

Kelly McGonigal 5:01 I wasn't present for it, and that's even another way to reframe it, that sometimes my anxiety is a sign of presence, which is so different from how people typically think of presence as being very calm. You know, I actually love the energy of anxiety when it's that right combination of adrenaline and endorphins and dopamine. We love this feeling. People do all sorts of things to try to get that chemical cocktail of adrenaline and dopamine and endorphins. You know, by paying attention to my physiology and other activities I love, like working out-

Matt Abrahams 5:32 Yeah

Kelly McGonigal 5:32 ... I realize it, it feels very physically similar, so I just have to give myself A goal. Like, anxiety's not as great in situations where I have nothing to do. I will be honest about that.

Matt Abrahams 5:43 [laughs] Right.

Kelly McGonigal 5:43 When it's worrying about the future and there's nothing I can do, or I'm on an airplane and I clearly can't fly it.

Matt Abrahams 5:49 Right. [laughs]

Kelly McGonigal 5:49 Um, like, anxiety in those moments, I have other coping skills for.

Matt Abrahams 5:53 Right.

Kelly McGonigal 5:53 But since you asked specifically about speaking or that kind of-

Matt Abrahams 5:55 Right

Kelly McGonigal 5:55 ... performance.

Matt Abrahams 5:56 No, that's exactly right, and I think it's that reframing that these are the normal physiological symptoms that, in many cases, we seek out and enjoy. I think about first dates or exciting conversations, and we're doing the same thing. But we frame them as, "Hey, this is a great thing." I, I really like that. You and I both teach communication skills at the GSB. In fact, as part of the COVID emergency plan that was put in place here, you and I were backups for each other if one of us got really sick.

Kelly McGonigal 6:23 This was a smart policy, by the way. I actually think that was pretty good that we got in the habit of doing that.

Matt Abrahams 6:27 Right.

Kelly McGonigal 6:28 But yes, that was, that was a first.

Matt Abrahams 6:28 Well, it reduced stress for me that I knew somebody as competent as you could step in. Although I do have to admit I got a little nervous that my students would like you more than me [laughs] if, if I disappeared. I'm curious, what do you find are the most common mistakes you see our students and those you coach when it comes to communication?

Kelly McGonigal 6:45 Yeah, so first of all, let me set the context. I work primarily with PhD students-

Matt Abrahams 6:49 Right

Kelly McGonigal 6:49 ... who are all doing amazing research. So they're used to communicating their research in academic settings, and my class is to help them communicate in every setting.

Matt Abrahams 6:58 Mm-hmm.

Kelly McGonigal 6:58 Professionally, at conferences, but also to the media and to potential collaborators and stakeholders and a random person on the street. And I would say that the thing that I say over and over again, and we do all of these exercises to try to practice it and yet is really hard for them, is to talk about crunchy details, not abstractions.

Matt Abrahams 7:21 Hmm. Right.

Kelly McGonigal 7:22 So I don't want to know that you study the technological interface of emotions and artificial intelligence in market analysis of blah, like, basically a string of nouns.

Matt Abrahams 7:36 [laughs]

Kelly McGonigal 7:37 And I'm waiting to like, "Okay, would you point to something that you actually study? Like, for example, a dating app. Okay, great. And what problem are you trying to solve? How to get people better matches or something like that." And so I'm always saying, like, "Show me the actual thing. Show me the question you ask people in your study. Take a picture of people doing the thing that you study."

Matt Abrahams 8:00 Mm-hmm.

Kelly McGonigal 8:00 Even if what you're doing is modeling and you never leave your computer, go out into the world and take a picture of the thing you're mo- that you're modeling so that I understand. So I'd say, like, that's the, the biggest thing we work on. I talk about coming up with artifacts for your research.

Matt Abrahams 8:14 Mm-hmm.

Kelly McGonigal 8:14 The photos, the videos, the audio samples, the objects that will help people understand what you do, and using language that people will immediately understand. I think the other mistake is the mindset that a lot of academics have, in part because they're terrified. Getting a PhD is basically understanding that you don't know anything, and people are eager to point that out to you.

Matt Abrahams 8:35 [laughs]

Kelly McGonigal 8:36 So people get in this habit of feeling like they have to prove that they know stuff, hide that they don't know stuff, and also persuade you that their research is correct. So a lot of times in research presentations or communications, my students will try to, like, talk fast and deliver things so fast you can barely keep up, so you can't interrupt with critiques. And I don't want to take questions 'cause the questions might reveal what I don't know. There's this idea that, like, my job is to just sort of push my research at you-

Matt Abrahams 9:11 Mm-hmm. Right

Kelly McGonigal 9:11 ... and get through it without there being any kind of critical dialogue. And what I always say is the purpose of any really interesting communication should be for the other person to have interesting thoughts in their own head about your work. It's not to convince them that your work is right or important or that you know everything about it. You want the person who is listening to you or watching you to think, "Wait, what if this..." or, "I wonder if..." or, "I don't think so." The degree to which they are having their own interesting, spontaneous thoughts and questions, that's the measure of success. It really reframes, like, what you're doing and how you do it. Those are two things we spend a lot of time talking about.

Matt Abrahams 9:55 Wow. So there's a lot there. I really like that the goal is to have people have their own experience about your content. Absolutely. And, and it, n- not only does that invite collaboration rather than challenge and threat, it also forces you, I think, to be audience centric.

Kelly McGonigal 10:13 Yes.

Matt Abrahams 10:13 My goal is to have you have an experience-

Kelly McGonigal 10:16 Yes

Matt Abrahams 10:16 ... rather than me just push all that information.

Kelly McGonigal 10:18 That's-- We do all that. I teach empathic design for talks.

Matt Abrahams 10:20 Yeah.

Kelly McGonigal 10:20 What do they need to know? When do they need to know it? What do they need to see? What do they need to, like, literally visually see? When do they need to be able to interrupt? That it really is from that, that point of view.

Matt Abrahams 10:32 And it's not, this is not just for academics. Anybody is in that same position. I coach and teach executives and managers who feel like they don't want to be threatened and challenged. They just want to push out their decrees and move forward. It's the same thing.

Kelly McGonigal 10:45 The thing, the thing I always tell them is, "If there are problems with your work, people already know." It's so funny. I, I, I'll see students. They'll, like, they'll say something kind of interesting, and I'll be like, "Wait a minute. That was so fascinating." Like, I'm, I'm remembering that this woman in my class had mentioned that she calculated stuff with a certain 15-minute window during market trading, and it was, like, very specific. And I was like, "That's so interesting. Why that 15-minute window? And tell me more about that." And she's like, "Well, I kind of rushed through that 'cause I didn't want anyone to ask questions about it. I was afraid that maybe it was, like, the wrong choice." I'm like, "No, this is, that you made a choice-"

Matt Abrahams 11:19 Right

Kelly McGonigal 11:19 "... is interesting," and it almost doesn't matter if it's the perfect choice. I want to know that you made a choice.

Matt Abrahams 11:26 Right.

Kelly McGonigal 11:26 I want to hear why you made the choice. I want to be able to have an opinion about your choice.

Matt Abrahams 11:31 I think that that particular example is really Important and resonates nicely with some of the things we've talked about when we've talked with folks who are experts at improv. Make a choice, commit to the choice, be behind that choice, and be willing to accept what consequences come from that choice. And I don't want to lose what you said earlier about this notion of help people actually see what you're talking about.

Kelly McGonigal 11:55 Yes.

Matt Abrahams 11:55 And that is so critical. It is so easy to hide behind slides and data, but if you can actually have people, help people have an experience of what you're talking about-

Kelly McGonigal 12:04 And it can be with data, too.

Matt Abrahams 12:05 Sure.

Kelly McGonigal 12:05 So I'm always saying, like, you know, if you've got videos of babies doing funny things 'cause you study infant cognition, show the baby videos. But also, if what you've got is data or a model, you know what people always do is they put it all up there, and they're like, "As you can see, X. Next." I'm like, "No."

Matt Abrahams 12:22 [laughs] Right.

Kelly McGonigal 12:22 You don't say, "As you can see."

Matt Abrahams 12:24 Right.

Kelly McGonigal 12:24 You walk me through it.

Matt Abrahams 12:26 Mm-hmm.

Kelly McGonigal 12:27 What you're looking at here is this.

Matt Abrahams 12:29 Mm-hmm.

Kelly McGonigal 12:29 Notice this. Like, you zoom in, you interpret it. This dot, this slope, whatever, this means this. As you can see, it's different from th- Like, you want people to actually see it. So it can be photos and videos or it can be data, but the idea that somebody can understand something just because their eyes see it on a slide, that's so different from somebody having an actual understanding and an opinion about it.

Matt Abrahams 12:59 Oh, absolutely. And, and it takes them outside of themselves and puts them in their audience's perspective. And I just want to get meta for a second and not, not Facebook, but you, you d- have done a great job in the answer to that question of doing exactly what you're talking about. You helped show us and have a, uh, give us an experience of it. You are an excellent communicator yourself, both in writing and speaking. I'm wondering if you can share a bit about your process. What do you do as you're thinking about crafting your communication?

Kelly McGonigal 13:27 Mm-hmm. I always start with the best possible outcome for the audience that I care about most, right? So you can never control everyone who's in the room-

Matt Abrahams 13:40 Mm-hmm

Kelly McGonigal 13:40 ... or everyone who reads, you know, the op-ed that you write or, or the book that you write. So I'm always thinking, "Well, who am I really trying to speak to or reach, and what's the best possible outcome for them?"

Matt Abrahams 13:53 Mm-hmm.

Kelly McGonigal 13:54 Do I want them to feel a certain way? Do I want them to change their behavior in a certain way? And then I work backwards and I think, what do they need to hear? What do they need to do? What story could I tell that would make that outcome more likely? And, uh, you know, I'm often, like, literally just writing this stuff down. I'm writing that out, and I start to get ideas for content blocks. And this would be true if I was drafting a chapter for a book or giving a keynote. And, uh, I'll often think, "Well, what are these content blocks?" Like, what's the best story that I have? What's the b- the best case study I have? What's the best scientific study I have? You know, I really learned to put things in judiciously, and that it only has to be one.

Matt Abrahams 14:39 Mm.

Kelly McGonigal 14:39 I only have to tell one story for an idea. I only have to share one study.

Matt Abrahams 14:44 Wow. So to get back to the first part of what you said that I find so cool is you, you actually backward map. You start with what's the outcome-

Kelly McGonigal 14:52 Oh, yeah

Matt Abrahams 14:52 ... and what are the steps that I need to get there.

Kelly McGonigal 14:53 I do that for teaching, too, right?

Matt Abrahams 14:55 Oh, absolutely.

Kelly McGonigal 14:55 That's how you design a class.

Matt Abrahams 14:56 Absolutely. We haven't talked about that before, but it's really, uh, interesting to start with what's the end and then what do I need to add to it, and you are adding things very judiciously. Just one key example. You know, many of our listeners know that for decades I've found great benefit from doing the martial arts, and I know you're a big believer in exercise and movement, not just in communication, but in life in general. And in your newest book, The Joy of Movement, is a testament to that idea. I'm curious if you could just share why exercise is so important, not just for health, but for life. And, and I saw in The New York Times that you've got joy exercises, and I'd like to hear a little bit about that. We all need a little more joy in our lives.

Kelly McGonigal 15:35 People listening, Partha couldn't see, I just did a joy move-

Matt Abrahams 15:38 Yes

Kelly McGonigal 15:38 ... when you said that.

Matt Abrahams 15:39 Yes.

Kelly McGonigal 15:39 But let's, let's go backwards. Let's start with the joy workout.

Matt Abrahams 15:42 Sure, please.

Kelly McGonigal 15:42 It's really, like... So one of the things I tell my students is always start in the middle of the action. Like-

Matt Abrahams 15:46 Yeah

Kelly McGonigal 15:46 ... like, start your talk with something interesting and specific.

Matt Abrahams 15:49 Right.

Kelly McGonigal 15:50 So often people start with, like, these general vague things or-

Matt Abrahams 15:53 It's, it's gotta be like an action movie, I tell my students.

Kelly McGonigal 15:55 Yeah. So, okay, so let me-- When I explain the joy workout, you will understand how I think about movement.

Matt Abrahams 15:59 Right.

Kelly McGonigal 16:00 So The New York Times called me up, and they were like, "You know, we've got all these seven-minute workouts that are based on getting your heart rate up or, like, using all your muscles in a specific way, and we were curious, would it be possible to create a workout specifically to make people happy?"

Matt Abrahams 16:15 Mm.

Kelly McGonigal 16:16 And I was like, "Why, yes."

Matt Abrahams 16:17 [laughs]

Kelly McGonigal 16:18 "Actually, I do it 10 times a week." What they ended up doing was asking me to leverage the science of what we know about what joy looks like and feels like in the body, and can you teach people to move in those ways so that it actually makes them happier, more optimistic-

Matt Abrahams 16:34 Right

Kelly McGonigal 16:34 ... feeling more connected, more celebratory. And it's based on this, this fascinating research that when people are in situations where they are dynamically happy, like you get good news, and just imagine, what would you do when you get good news? People pump their fists.

Matt Abrahams 16:46 Right.

Kelly McGonigal 16:46 They throw their arms in the air. They jump up and down. What would you do if you saw someone that you, that you love but you haven't seen in years? You fling your arms open wide. You, like, lift your face to the heavens. There are these gestures that people do.

Matt Abrahams 17:01 Right.

Kelly McGonigal 17:01 Or even if you think about, like, an athlete who just, uh, did something amazing in a game, right? They pose, they show off, they do their happy dance.

Matt Abrahams 17:10 Right.

Kelly McGonigal 17:10 So it turns out that these movements are really similar all over the world.

Matt Abrahams 17:14 Uh-huh.

Kelly McGonigal 17:14 Uh, in lots of different cultures, it seems to be a, a natural expression of joy. So I developed this workout where you just, like, jump for joy and celebrate and sway and bounce. Show people what it can look like, but you do it your own way. We put it to happy music designed to also make people feel better.

Matt Abrahams 17:32 Right.

Kelly McGonigal 17:32 And, you know, by the end of eight minutes, the idea is you can move your body in ways that get your heart rate up, that are good for you physically, but you did it not as, like, a punishment for what you ate or not because you're afraid of some disease you might get in a decade. But-

Matt Abrahams 17:47 Or giving a presentation.

Kelly McGonigal 17:49 Yeah. Or it's... But you, you do it because you can have a direct experience in movement that you value. And, you know, the research is really clear that people who are more physically active-

Matt Abrahams 17:59 Right

Kelly McGonigal 17:59 ... in an activity they enjoy, they're happier. They have better relationships. They have more meaning in life.

Matt Abrahams 18:04 I would love for all of the people we work with to experience that joy in their communication, but also in just life in general. I find your approach to both mind and body, mindset and physical movements really empowering and so helpful. Before we end, I'd like to ask you the same three questions I ask everyone who joins me. Are you, you up for that?

Kelly McGonigal 18:28 Yes.

Matt Abrahams 18:29 All right, I saw a big smile, everybody. If you were to capture the best communication advice you have ever received as a five to seven word presentation slide title, what would it be?

Kelly McGonigal 18:40 I think this is gonna be unusual, but my honest answer is, trust that people are adequate to their experiences. That was eight.

Matt Abrahams 18:51 That's all right, I'll let you go. Help me understand what that means.

Kelly McGonigal 18:53 Yeah.

Matt Abrahams 18:53 Trust that people are adequate to their experiences.

Kelly McGonigal 18:56 So this was something that I was taught by a Zen teacher talking about how we show up for other people, and how important it is, particularly when you're trying to help someone.

Matt Abrahams 19:09 Mm-hmm.

Kelly McGonigal 19:10 That to be present with them in a way that can hold the opposites of both, you might be suffering right now, you might be overwhelmed-

Matt Abrahams 19:18 Mm.

Kelly McGonigal 19:18 You might have health challenges and whatever the situation is, and I want to help. And also to have some kind of core belief that because you're human and because this is your reality, you're adequate to this moment.

Matt Abrahams 19:36 Mm.

Kelly McGonigal 19:36 There's something in you that is adequate to the moment of your life. And this is something that it's a matter of trust or faith. It's a kind of a putting a trust in the audience as well, that it's their, their life. It revolves around them.

Matt Abrahams 19:53 Mm-hmm.

Kelly McGonigal 19:53 And I'm just here in a moment of interaction, and often before I give a talk, I'll even think like, "All right. I just hope that I say or do something that somebody here needed to hear."

Matt Abrahams 20:04 That's a lovely mantra as well. I found myself getting hung up on the word adequate, because to me, adequate means minimally acceptable. But in the way you're using it, it's very different. And it's an, it's an adequate in confidence.

Kelly McGonigal 20:16 Right. Nobody wants to be adequate. But I think what it is, is it-- what saying is, people often desperately feel that they're not adequate to this moment. "I'm inadequate to this."

Matt Abrahams 20:24 Yeah.

Kelly McGonigal 20:24 "I can't handle this."

Matt Abrahams 20:26 Right.

Kelly McGonigal 20:26 "This is too much." And I know what that feels like.

Matt Abrahams 20:30 Yeah.

Kelly McGonigal 20:30 Like, I have that voice in my head, too. So there's something about, it's a kind of acceptance.

Matt Abrahams 20:35 Absolutely. And, and it's also removed some of the pressure that I don't have to be great. Let me ask you the second question, and I'll be very curious to hear your answer. Who is a communicator that you admire and why?

Kelly McGonigal 20:46 So this will be somebody that most people don't know, but I'll try to describe her well enough that you appreciate her. Her name is Natalie Goldberg. So Natalie Goldberg is an author and also a Zen teacher, and she has a really strong accent, like a deep, strong, powerful voice. And so she sounds very distinct. And then what she says when she talks is, like, just absolute ruthless authenticity. "This is how it is. This is my experience," the, the details. There's just something so grounded about it, and I will listen to her talk about anything-

Matt Abrahams 21:25 Hmm

Kelly McGonigal 21:25 ... because she'll tell you the color of the carpet, but because she'll tell it to you because it means something. [chuckles] I don't know, it's, it's like the opposite of abstractions, and yet she's so, um, in touch with what it means to be human that everything that, that comes out of her teaching and her writing, I just feel like it reminds me of common humanity.

Matt Abrahams 21:48 I think a communicator that we admire who inspires us and challenges us to change or at least reflect on who we are is, is the right kind of communicator.

Kelly McGonigal 21:57 Mm-hmm.

Matt Abrahams 21:57 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

Kelly McGonigal 22:03 I have an answer [chuckles] that actually has three parts that I didn't even have to make up for this.

Matt Abrahams 22:07 Okay.

Kelly McGonigal 22:08 This is something also that I teach in my communication class, and also when I've coached people giving TED Talks. Um, this is an idea that I learned from Gail Larson-

Matt Abrahams 22:15 Mm

Kelly McGonigal 22:15 ... who teaches a speaking style that I, I really admire. It's really about, like, y- viewing speaking as an opportunity to change people's lives. And she says that there are three sort of sides of yourself that you can show in any talk. One is the face of wonder-

Matt Abrahams 22:32 Mm-hmm

Kelly McGonigal 22:32 ... which is really, it's curiosity, it's open-mindedness, it's what you wonder about, it's what, what motivates you. The second is the face of creative fire-

Matt Abrahams 22:44 Mm

Kelly McGonigal 22:44 ... and it's what you're passionate about, it's your drive, it's all of your time and your energy made manifest in showing that you care. And then the third is my favorite, which I don't, I don't know how often I get to do it, but it's rude magnificence. And that is when you realize there's something that people need to hear that might be difficult-

Matt Abrahams 23:04 Mm-hmm

Kelly McGonigal 23:05 ... and you know it because of your lived experience or the wisdom that you have acquired through your own suffering and adversity, or because you've been willing to look and think about something for a long time. Do you have an opportunity to say something that feels important and true that is, like, you're the one who can say it. You're the one in the room who has thought about this the most, or you have a unique life experience to share.

Matt Abrahams 23:35 Well, I would expect no less from a communication teacher to share three really powerful ingredients. So the notion of curiosity, passion, and what I'm gonna call authentic wisdom. Well, Kelly, this has been a true joy and pleasure for sure. I have always admired what you teach and how you teach it and the passion that you bring, and it's been a true pleasure to chat. And I am, I'm hoping that people take away that there's so much value into reflecting on our communication, on our physical wellbeing, and the joy that we can bring to others, so thank you.

Kelly McGonigal 24:09 Thank you. [upbeat music]

Matt Abrahams 24:14 Thanks for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart: The Podcast from Stanford Graduate School of Business. This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Michael Riley, and me, Matt Abrahams. For more information and episodes, visit gsb.stanford.edu, or subscribe to our show wherever you get your podcasts. Find us on social media, @stanfordgsb. [upbeat music]