Hyeonseo Lee: My Escape from North Korea and Life Beyond

Hyeonseo Lee 0:00 [ on hold music]

Hyeonseo Lee 0:05 Today, I would like to tell you us about-- I would like to tell you a story about the most reclusive place on earth, my home country of North Korea. In this land of fear and desperation, three generations of families still can be sent to, to a labor camp for, for the most ridiculous offenses, like someone in- simply tries to access outside information and see the outside world out of the Hermit Kingdom. As a child growing up to the Chinese, North Chinese border, I was lucky to receive outside information and one day, I decided to take risk and journey into the great unknown. As a curious high school student who lived simply and quietly under the Kim dynasty, I could have never foreseen the drastic changes in my life that would follow those dramatic steps across the border. Now, more than 15

Hyeonseo Lee 1:05 years later, after an epic journey and full of hardship and triumphs, I'm here to share my story with you and the lessons I've learnt. From the moment I was born, I was fed propaganda, and I viewed the Kim family dynasty not only as our fearless protectors from the imperialist forces, but also as gods. Growing up, I never thought our country's founder, Kim Il-sung, could even go to the bathroom like us humans. It wasn't until age 14, when I saw his funeral, I realized he was actually human. Until that moment, I thought our god couldn't die. Using elaborate deceptions as well as coercive tools of control, the North Korean leadership is able to indoctrinate and brainwash the vast majority of its citizens, depriving them of their natural right to learn the truth about the outside world. Most people can't understand why North Korean people are crying after the former dictators, Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il, died. But those who grew up there, we completely understand that. We first learn to say, "Mom and Dad," when we are young children, and then say, "Thank you to our beloved leaders." Previously, when I thought they were gods, I didn't think it was

Hyeonseo Lee 2:36 strange, just as eating three meals a day was normal. So, I thought bowing to their pictures and singing their praises was also normal. As a North Korean, we can't say bad things or complain about the leaders, and we can't call their name exactly without putting any specific titles, and we can't have exactly same name as the leader. So, even if an old man who was called Kim Jong-un for his entire life, but now he must change his name. North Koreans are constantly inundated with anti-imperialist propaganda, especially against America. From the kindergarten, we learned that the Americans are our primary enemies, who killed many innocent North Koreans during the Korean War. So, even these days, North Koreans learn that, uh, Americans are colonizing South Korea and executing South Korean students. So, our hostility towards Americans was so high, and we considered that they are not as normal human beings, so they are the person who must kill them off. We also learned that British are considered gentlemen North Korean, and Americans are bastards.

Speaker 3:57 [laughing]

Hyeonseo Lee 4:00 We really never learnt why British are considered gentlemen, and so therefore, every schools we had, all the schools we hang posters about killing American soldiers. And every year on Children's Day, we played a game about how to stab American soldiers. North, North Korean authorities demand complete loyalty and submission to the system, and those who refuse are considered

Hyeonseo Lee 4:31 enemies of the state, and they are suffering hu- horrific human rights abuses. For example, there have been numerous cases in my hometown where entire family disappeared after, in the middle of the night, one of the family members complaints. One of my friend's fathers said simply to his best friend, "This system is unfair." He was sent to a political prison camp while his family was removed, forcibly removed to desolate mountainous areas where it is extremely difficult to survive. Many people in prison camp, they even didn't know why they were sent there, and they are completely stunned when they are dragged out of their homes and thrown into prison, ruining their lives forever. We also have mandatory self-criticism sessions, which we must criticize all friends and neighbors and classmates. In addition to the numerous snitches and informants paid by the government, so the system comploy- completely destroys the trust within society and even between husband and wife. Because after they divorced, one person could tell to the government about the other person's behavior. Many of you may compare this situation to the Stasi in East Germany, where entire-- where a wife find out that after Germany's unification what the, her own husband was spying on her the entire time. In North Korea, an estimated 400 thousands of people in prison camp, and one of, one of the my distant relatives actually experienced this horrible fate in North Korea. He came to North Korea during the 1970s from China, and he thought North Korea was going to be a communist utopia, as the North Korean government advertised. But after that, he realized the advertising was not true, and he decided to cross back into North Korea again. But unfortunately, he was caught by the border guards, and he was sent to the prison camp. He was sentenced to 30 years, and his son was only a baby at the time. After he grew up, he visited several times to see his

Hyeonseo Lee 7:01 father in the prison camp. But every time, he was denied access. His father never freed, and eventually after he died, his son even couldn't retrieve his body for a proper burial. I also witnessed my first public execution when I was seven years old. I was stunned to see a crowd gathered around a man hanging from a bridge. The North Korean authorities want people live in a constant state of fear, so they force us to watch public executions. So sometimes the schools cancel their classes so all the students could witness the public execution, and attendance was mandatory. Sometimes people were even executed for very minor offenses, such as a man who stole one kilogram of grain from the farm to feed his starving family. North Korean authorities often imprison those who trying to escape or make money in China to support their families back home, yet supposedly the socialist system provides no support and forces people into miserable life of poverty and hunger. Even though the people who saw the public execution were usually terrified, we accepted the public execution as part of our life automatically, since we didn't know anything about the concept of human rights. So the executions were a constant reminder that I shouldn't do anything to disobey to our government. Ultimately, the biggest killer in North Korea is starvation, which has killed more than a nor- m- more than a million North Korean people. By mid 1990s, I started to notice that people around me were suffering. One day in 1995, I went to my friend's home during the lunch time after the school, but the family didn't, didn't prepare anything for the lunch. So I complained to my friend that whenever she come to my home, my family fed her meals, even snacks, so I thought their family were very stingy. She reluctantly took me her family's kitchen and showed me a pot that had barely anything inside of it. I was stunned, and still I don't know what was the inside exactly, but I was kept thinking at the time myself, "This isn't food for human. Why don't they have normal food?" But few months later, I discovered the answer when I read the, um, when I read a letter from a woman about her whole family was dying because they didn't have any food for weeks. They had no energy and no hope, so the five family members were lying on the floor together and waiting to die. I was so shocked. This was the first time I heard that people in my country were suffering. My most vivid memory from the famine was, uh, when I was, saw a lifeless woman lying on the street while an emaciated child in her arms just stared helplessly at his mother's face. I was so sad, and I p- replaced some money in the child's lap, but I knew it wouldn't last. At that time, when I saw so many people dying and begging on the street, I began to doubt then my country's propaganda that North Korea is the best in the world. We were always taught that the capitalism was a sickness that would cause society decay, but I didn't see how communism could be better when people are dying and begging in the street. Even our teachers had stopped teaching so they could earn a little money from the market. Still at the time, I didn't know that we were suffering due to our government's failed system, and I

Hyeonseo Lee 11:06 believed the regime's propaganda that we are only suffering because of American's sex, sanctions, and I praised our leaders to protecting us and doing their best for us. Fortunately, information from beyond the regime's control would soon help open my mind. Since I lived right next to Chinese border, and amazingly, our television could pick up a few Chinese TV channels, and as I watched secretly, I became overwhelmed with curiosity and full of dreams about the outside world. Although even watching TV was a problem because of constant power shortages. At night, surrounded by darkness and poverty and starvation, I often gazed across the river at China's brilliant streetlights and neon signs, and I gradually realized that my country is not the best in the world. I have been lied to all my life. After

Hyeonseo Lee 12:07 this revelation, I was determined to leave North Korea to find out the truth about the outside world. For North Koreans, trying to cross the border is a huge risk, and some people die trying. Border guards will shoot to kill, and sometimes I saw dead bodies floating down the river during the famine. Luckily, my family had some connections to the border guards in my area, so it wasn't hard for me to cross the border at all. Uh, I could have never imag- I thought I could, uh, quickly come back from my journey to China, yet I could have never imagined that it would take 14 years until I would see my family again. After arriving in China, I began to learn the truth about my country, and I was stunned to learn that all the history I've learned was full of propaganda. Most importantly, I realized that a life of fear, hunger, oppression is a crime against the North Korean people. Although I began to get a sense of freedom in China, I was also terrified since the Chinese government will capture and repatriate North Koreans to a back, t- horrible fate back in North Korea. So even in China, I wasn't really free. After three years of living under the radar, someone eventually reported me, so I was taken to the police station. The interrogators were grilling me for a long time and forced me to read difficult Chinese newspapers. I acted calmly on the outside, but inside, my heart felt it was like, like going to explode. If I failed to convince them that I was Chinese, my family and I would be in huge trouble. Thanks to the countless hours I spent studying

Hyeonseo Lee 14:08 Chinese, at that time, my Chinese language abilities were good enough to answer those difficult questions and read the papers. After what seemed like eternity, one officer said to another, "This was a false report. She's not North Korean." And they let me go. It was a truly a miracle. I just quickly decided to move to Shanghai since it's a big city and without many North Korean defectors, so it would be difficult for the Chinese police to find me. So in Shanghai, s- I started a new life again, and with m- all my hard work, I purchased Chinese ID cards, and eventually I was able to get a job at a trading company. After 10 years of living and struggling in China, I decided that I wanted to see the differences between the North Korean propaganda and the life in South Korea with my own eyes, so I got a visa to South Korea. In 2008, in South Korea's Incheon International Airport, I asked for asylum, and two officers approached me, and they checked m- my documents closely, and they asked me with suspicious eyes, "Your Chinese passport and visa are real. Are you really a North Korean?" They thought I was a Chinese citizen impersonating North Korean-

Speaker 15:39 [laughs]

Hyeonseo Lee 15:41 ... to receive South Korean citizenship. So they want me to go back to the Shanghai to the next airline else I would receive strict punishment under law, law, and then be deported. I couldn't believe in, even in South Korea, I'm in danger of being repatriated to China and then be to North Korea, where I might be tortured and publicly executed for being, for visiting to South Korea. Thoughts

Hyeonseo Lee 16:11 were racing through my mind. Was this all, like, uh, was this all mistake that I came to South Korea? After a long investigation in National Intelligence Service that lasted three months, I was finally accepted as a North Korean, and I was finally released into South Korean society six months after I first arrived. My first day as a South Korean citizen, there was a huge burden for me to adjust another new life again. But I was still very grateful because at least I have a citizenship, a place to live, and assistance from the government. In China, I started with nothing, and I worked my way up, so I reassured myself I could overcome this difficult time. But settling down in South Korea was a lot more challenging than I had expected. North Koreans and South Koreans look similar on the outside, but inside, we've changed due to more than 60 years of division. Throughout this time, our lifestyle and culture, even languages, have become different. And North Koreans have to endure prejudice and icy stares from some South Koreans, so many North Koreans try hard to hide their identities, especially when they're looking for jobs. After many years of hiding my identity in China, I was hurt and disappointed that I need to, have to hide my ident- identity again in motherland too. In the end, I went a serious identity crisis, and another surprising aspect of life in North, in South Korea was that I, I had to face yet another language barrier. I already experienced a language barrier in China, but I could never imagined that English would be so important in South Korea, so

Hyeonseo Lee 18:13 I had to start learning my third language. While studying for the university entrance exam, suddenly one day everything changed. I heard that my family in North Korea had a serious problem by the government, so I had no choice but to risk my life by helping them to escape. I went back to China, and I secretly waited my family on the Chinese border with North Korea. After 14 years, I would finally see my family for the first time in person. My mother had faked her own death and paid a doctor to forge the death certificate, while my brother used his connections to the border guards to get them across. When I finally met them on the bor- Chinese border with North Korea, I was really excited. But we couldn't even embrace each other for fear of getting caught. So until we got to the hotel, we didn't say any word. After we were finally safe in hotel, I was so sad because my mom and brother looked pitiful. They were soaking wet and shivering, and especially my mom looked very old. She told me the stress was almost unbearable. We couldn't stop crying and hugging and stay up whole night to talking, and I told them full details about my plan. We would travel China by bus and then cross border into Laos and then seek asylum in South Korean Embassy. We stayed a few more days so everyone could regain our energy. But we didn't have much time to waste. We had a long journey ahead of us. The

Hyeonseo Lee 20:15 day we choose to depart was a horrible day, and at the time I didn't know that. It was China's National Day, so there was a huge Chinese police presence checking IDs o- on all the buses. Within the first five minute depart, depart, departure, our bus was stopped for the inspections. The military soldier boarded, and he started checking IDs while he's looking at each pa- passenger's eyes, in, in the eyes. I couldn't believe our bad luck. My brother, he was onl- unfortunately, he was the only male passenger on the bus at that time, and he was also stood out since he's thinner, he has, he was thinner, and he had a darker skin color as compared to the other Chinese men in hi- in his age, because North Koreans, we never used any sun cream. And he pretend to be asleep, but I saw the soldier walking directly to- towards my brother. My heart found, pounding was so fast, and I myself, I found myself in panic. I knew if I don't do anything in that situation, it would not probably end well. I had to do something, but what? I froze, and my heart and my body turned to stone. As the soldier approached, um, I was, kept asking myself, "What can I do? What can I do?" The guard was so close now and just a few more steps left. And suddenly I found the answer and jumped up in front of him, and I put the cameras in his face, and I started taking picture of him. He became, he was stunned. And, and I started taking more pictures of him, and I, uh, and he became furious. "Don't you know it's illegal to take pictures in this kind of situation?" he yelled in Chinese. So I gave him s- innocent smile, and I said, "I'm sorry. I didn't know it's illegal, since I never seen anything like this before. I will delete them right away." And every passengers on the bus was staring at us between him, and he was flustered and turned around, and he ran off the bus. I was so relieved, but the long and difficult journey had just begun. After the long, af- after the first bus ride, we took a short break, and we started another long bus ride that would take between 16 to 18 hours. Again, our bus was stopped eight hours later after the departure. This time there was a Chinese police officer. He demanded all the Chi- all the passengers' ID cards, and even he questioning names and asking, asking questions like, "Where is your hometown? Where are you going?" And, "Why you are going there?" Like this. It's obvious he's looking for Ch- North Korean defectors. My heart sank. Even though my mom and brother had the Chinese ID cards that I borrowed from some Chinese, but they can't speak Chinese at the time, so. Soon my brother's, uh, fake name was called. The o- Chinese police officer demanded my brother to come up to the front to meet him. My brother just froze, and I noticed his face turned completely dark. It was like nothing I've ever seen like this before. He called my brother's name second time and then a third. He was clearly annoyed. And I just pushed my brother to get off, but I f- So my brother was shaking with fear. It was really hurt me at the time, so I spring into another action once again. I told the police officer, "He's deaf and dumb."

Speaker 24:41 [laughs]

Hyeonseo Lee 24:43 "And I'm his chaperone." He looked at me with suspicious and in disbelief. As I was just trying to explain, I heard grunting noise behind me. It was my mom pretending to, pretending to be a mentally challenged person.

Speaker 25:02 [laughs]

Hyeonseo Lee 25:05 "She's with me, too," I said. "Sh- sh- she's also deaf and dumb."

Speaker 25:11 [laughs]

Hyeonseo Lee 25:12 I told the police officer. He looked absolutely shocked, and after an awkward silence, he muttered, "There are too many deaf and dumb people on this bus."

Speaker 25:24 [laughs]

Hyeonseo Lee 25:28 And he turned around to the bus driver and ticket checker. He asked, "Is this true?" And those two person was vis- visibly annoyed by the long delays and quickly assured him that it was indeed true. Reluctantly in disbelief, he got off the bus and we started to move again. As we, my family and I returned to our seats, every single passengers was staring at us. At that time, I, it occurred to, to me, actually my family and I had been talking Korean the entire time, so every passengers in the bus, they know that my mom and brother were deaf and dumb. But amazingly, they didn't say anything. It was another miraculous moment in the journey, and I'm so thankful to those passengers that they didn't expose us. So for the rest of the journey, three of us sat in silence, and even after the bus ride, ride over, the overcoming, overcoming stress made us too difficult to talk each other. After the two, after dodging two huge bullets on the previous ride, I decided to quickly move to the last part of the journey, and we took yet another bus to south. Now we had traveled more than thousands of kilometers from the snow-capped mountains of northeast China into the subtropical heat of southeast China. As we appro- cr- approached near the border, we felt a growing sense of excitement since the end seemed to be s- seemed to be in sight. However, the journey and heat had taken its toll, and three of us lost a lot of weight and couldn't cope well with the scorching heat. Our energy was nearly depleted when we finally pulled into the last bus station near the border. I had arranged the, for the broker so he could take my family to the, into the Laos since I don't know the way. I met him at the last bus station, and we said our goodbyes, and I

Hyeonseo Lee 28:03 told my family I will, I will see them soon back in South Korea. I reassured them, and exhausted, we parted our ways. In the next morning, I took a taxi. I thought my job was done. But just as I was approaching to the airport, my cell phone rang. "Your family was caught after crossing the border into Laos, and they are probably taken, taken to the prison in Luang Namtha." It was a broker. "Luang what?" I asked. I never even heard about the Laos until I started planning this journey, and certainly I don't know anything about the country. He said, "In the past, the captured re- North Korean defectors were taken to there, and it's, uh, about 40 kilometers from inside, from the border." And he said he couldn't help me anymore, and he just hung up the phone. My head started spinning, and the energy seeped out of my body, and I slumped into the seat, immobilized by hopelessness. And I told the taxi driver turn around and to go to the border area. Not knowing where to go, and I asked some random people for the directions and finally walked, uh, cr- walked to, to the border areas of Laos immigration building. Looking to the mountains around the border, I was guess- I was trying to guess which mountain my family had crossed because I wanted to have some kind of feeling to connect that they are still, still near me. I was kept looking at the mountains, and I was trying to connect my brother and my mom to Seoul, and I couldn't stop thinking if I would have a chance to meet them again in my lifetime. Maybe their souls were lost on the mountain that day. Finally, I walked across into the immigration line, and I noticed a tall white man was standing behind me, and we took the same bus to the, mm, Luang Namtha. But I, I didn't pay any attention to him. Little did I know this man would soon change my life. After arriving in Vientiane, I spent for weeks between, going back and forth between the law immigration and the policy station to desperately trying to negotiate my family's release. I bribed them every days, but they, the authorities wouldn't release them. And one day, after many days later, they told me if I pay fine per person with the US dollar, then they can release my family. But at that time, my cash was running very low because already I borrowed twice from a friend in South Korea. I just went to coffee shop to think what to do, but I couldn't find any good options. I was so depressed, and the whole world seemed so dark. But luckily, a bright ray of sunshine came into my life when I needed it most. "Excuse me, are you a traveler? I just wonder, the people live, staying here for a few days, but I saw you a few weeks ago." He was the tall, white man from the bus. I only knew a little English, and even though I couldn't completely understand him, but we started communicate with my cell phone dictionary.

Speaker 31:57 [laughs]

Hyeonseo Lee 31:59 After he heard my story, he looked quite surprised, and he made a quick phone call with his friend, and he told me he would help me. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Why would a total stranger be help us like this? So many people in my life had been deceitful and manipulative. "Please wait for me here," he said. I wasn't even sure if he would come back. But soon, he came back with a fistful of cash. "By the way, my name is Dick." Then, then he hit me. I even didn't know, I even, even hadn't even know his name. Eventually, we went to prison together and released my family and three other North Koreans to be freed from the same prison. My mother first looked at me in disbelief and then ran like the wind to embrace me. She was sobbing and awful. She looked very awful, but at least we were together again. After that, I decided to bribe, to pay some police officer so we could get a ride to capital of Laos without being stopped, but eventually we were betrayed. Instead of taking us to the South Korean Embassy, they handed us to off some security officers who arrested my mom and brother once again.

Speaker 33:37 [coughs]

Hyeonseo Lee 33:39 Then stunningly, I was interrogated, accused of human trafficking for merely trying to help North Koreans reach safety, and I ordered to pay another fine. The officers in Laos were exploiting us in every way possible. I finally resolved the issue by even more borrowing from a friend in South Korea, and I had to leave the country immediately

Hyeonseo Lee 34:09 while my family rotten in prison for another three months and followed by three more months waiting in South Korean Embassy. After my final- my family finally arrived in South Korea, they had to spend a total of six months in interrogation center and reeducation facility. So in total, I had to wait a full year after leaving Laos until I could finally meet them again. After arriving in South Korea, I thought about the kind Australian man a lot. After he paid fine for my family, when he found out that I didn't even have enough money to go back to South Korea, so even he paid my airplane ticket at that time. So I thanked him with all my heart, and I asked him, "Why are you helping me?" "I'm not helping you," he said. "I'm helping North Korean people." His good deeds changed my life completely. Before meeting him, I thought the whole world was so cold to me, but at the moment, I realized that life is still worth living, and I believed that angels not only in novels or movies, that they're walking among us. It was a, a huge realization for me, and because of his actions, I got to where I am today. Unfortunately, we lost contact after I left Laos, but amazingly, he saw my TED Talk last year, so he was able to contact me once again. So we were eventually reunited on an Australian TV show, and we are still talking to each other these days. North Korean refugees have experienced a lot of pain, and we are sometimes awkward in the outside world since we lived such sheltered lives, and but still we are doing be- our best to laugh and sometimes at ourselves. One time, a North Korean refugee friend, she started eating an unpeeled banana in public since she never seen anything like that before. As everyone around her was stared and stopped, she felt so embarrassed. But now it's a funny joke between us. My mom also had some funny moments since arriving in South Korea. The very first day of freedom in South Korea, my mom and I went to ATM to withdraw some cash to buying some clothing. But she just, just stood there, and she's staring at the machine for a while. So I asked my mom, like, "Mom, what are you doing?" And she said, "I can't understand this machine. How is the money counted so fast, and how even the worker fit inside?"

Speaker 37:13 [laughing]

Hyeonseo Lee 37:15 "The little man has to work there all day,"

Speaker 37:18 [laughing]

Hyeonseo Lee 37:19 "and even without a window."

Speaker 37:21 [laughing]

Hyeonseo Lee 37:22 I just burst out laughing, and I told her this was the machine, and there's nobody inside.

Speaker 37:28 [laughing]

Hyeonseo Lee 37:30 We can only laugh about this kind of incidents because it helps us to realize how ridiculous life in North Korea has truly become. But sometimes we wondered if how different life would be if we were born somewhere else. While I was living in China, I was always thought if I would have been born in there, it would have been 100 times better than living, than living in North Korea. Even though China has many problems, but the situation compared to North Korea much better, and for the average, the life is much stable. But since we couldn't ch- we can't choose our parents, when my mom first gave to me, and I first opened my eyes, I saw my fate was grow up in North Korea. In reality, countless other North Koreans are suffering simply because of the sin of being born in North Korea. But looking back, due to that adversity, I became more matured and learned many virtues like wisdom, strength, and bravery. I didn't feel angry whenever I encountered hardship that I couldn't change. Instead, I lived my life overcoming obstacles and dealing with adversity instead of complaining because I realized I couldn't change the situations in front of me, but I could only determine my response, and that has been very empowering. It's an epic, it was an epic, uh, epiphany to realized that the constant obstacles in my life were not actually blocking my road, that they were showing me a new path. So I urge you all to truly appreciate the country where you were born and the opportunities you have. And gathered here in this beautiful facility, clearly we have all been given much, therefore, much is expected of us. So when we find somebody in need, lend, let's lend a helping hand and be good Samaritans using our talents to make this world a better place. And finally, I hope you also remember when, if you encounter an har- an obstacle, don't think of it an, as an obstacle at all. Think of it as a challenge to find a new path on the road less traveled. Thank you for listening.

Speaker 40:17 [applauding]

Hyeonseo Lee 40:28 Oh, thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 40:30 [applauding]

Speaker 40:42 Thank you so much, Hyeonseo, for sharing your story. We really appreciate you being here. Um, we're now gonna take questions from the audience. Ryan and Michael are going to pass around microphones. Please stand up, introduce yourself very briefly, and also please take into consideration Hyeonseo is a non-native speaker, so please, um, speak slowly and succinctly.

Speaker 41:13 Thank you very much for speaking to us. My name's, uh, Tom. Um, Myanmar was a similarly, or was a very oppressive regime as well, and in the last sort of five years, Myanmar has changed a lot. Do you see hope for North Korea?

Hyeonseo Lee 41:29 Uh, in this case, it's hard to compare any, like Myanmar or China or Germany situation because, uh, North Korea is a completely different situation because the North Koreans are the most brainwashed people in the world. And... What was the quest- [laughing] I just...

Speaker 41:57 North Korea.

Hyeonseo Lee 42:00 Yeah. There's, uh... Even though North Korea is a really reclusive country, but still it's changing, the society, because of, because of the young generations. When our parents' generations, they are more believing in the what government says, but the young generations, which is my generation, because of the, a lot of information flowing into North Korea from the border areas, like South Korean dramas or movies and music, it's helping to change their minds. But still it's hard to say the society is, because of this, is we can't see the huge pictures for that. Even though the young, the emergence of young leader, Kim Jong Un, and- Even though younger generations in the society, their activities, we can't, uh, see the differences because all the higher ranking positions, officers, all from the older generations. So after they changed, replaced from the younger generation, then we can hope for some changes, but not yet. That's my answer.

Speaker 43:14 Hi. Uh, thank you for coming today. My name is Yemi. I just wanted to find out, what do your family, what jobs do they have right now in Korea? And also, you mentioned it's difficult-

Hyeonseo Lee 43:26 In South Korea?

Speaker 43:26 In South Korea.

Hyeonseo Lee 43:27 Yeah.

Speaker 43:27 And you mentioned that it's difficult for, um, people who come from North Korea to get jobs in South Korea. So I would love to know what jobs do most of the s- uh, North Koreans who are now in South Korea do?

Hyeonseo Lee 43:44 You know, even North Koreans are, in South Korea, we share the same blood, we consider the one country, but obviously we are treated as a refugee. You know, it's a dif... Even as I said, in the space, we look similar on the outside, but inside we were changed because of the long s- separation. So especially when... It's the same as different other countries' refugees. So North Korean citizens is the same in South Korea. They s- they can't find bec- nice job because especially North Koreans have lack of education from South, in North Korea because, uh, we didn't have proper education or learned important job skills, and they, we lived completely like a communist system. And then when they asylum to South Korea, which is a 70 years gap, and then there's a capitalist, from s- communist from capitalist system, they moved to one time, and then the economy gap is, uh, we cannot even measure how big. So, and in North Korea, people, they don't have, they don't have own decision to make a decision living in South, in North Korea because always government tell them to what to do. "You do this, do that," blah, blah, blah, like that. So, but when we, when they move to South Korea, there's nobody is there to let them do this, that, or blah, blah, blah. So they make, they should make all their decision, which is, uh, seems totally free. But since who never tasted the freedom, for them, it's really difficult to have the freedom to make all their decisions in every single way. So there's a, a lot of side effect for that. So because of the lack of, uh, something, knowledge, so the only way they can get a job is something difficult jobs, which is most South Koreans, they don't want to work in the kind of workplace, but North Koreans replaced with that. Yeah. It's having hard time. But still, I want to have positive, uh, opinion for that. It's changed. When I arrived in South Korea 2008, like, uh, South Koreans treated North Koreans more like alien. But because, uh, they never heard about the North Korean refugees, not that common through the media. But over the time, it's 2014, over the time, there's many North Koreans are giving a public speech, and they are doing a lot of, uh, activities in different ways. And then especially there's a North Korean woman's talk show in North, in South Korea. So many ways it's helped to North, South Koreans to get to North, North Koreans more. And so it's their hostility or just prejudice becoming less. But we need to have more time to make this gap more close. We need take time. Yeah.

Speaker 46:48 Thank you for coming. I read an excellent book on North Korean refugees by Barbara Demick. It's called Nothing to Envy. It, it was just a, such a revelation for me. I think what surprised me most was after the North Koreans arrive in South Korea, we Americans think, "Oh, now everything is perfect, and it's Disneyland, and there are no more problems." And what struck me was the culture shock that you have talked about, and I was amazed at just how difficult it is for the North Koreans to enter into South Korean society or Western society. Is there any way you can see that can facilitate that? You mentioned the TV shows, and now people are starting to have more awareness. But I just was hoping there was some solution you see that can speed the process or ease the process for the North Koreans.

Hyeonseo Lee 47:53 Yeah. Mm, there's many NGOs actually trying to help North Korean people get out of China. There's a lot, but actually they are focusing most inside North Korea. But there's less NGOs focusing on North Korean refugees living in South Korea. Actually, they are also suffering a lot of problems. Also, they are suffering in terms of human rights and in terms of financial system. Uh, especially, it's hard to get job in South Korea. Even university student, after graduate, it's not, even South Korean students, it's hard to get a job these days. So North Koreans more having a difficult chance even they graduate from school. So actually, I was think about the question many time. Like, that is exactly what I wanted to do in the future, mm, because we need to more give help hand to North Korean refugees because- They are like a model living in South Korea right now. If they're having a hard time, that's a good propaganda for North Korean regime to North K- living inside North Korean people. Like, "Oh, North Korean, uh, people in South Korea, they are suffering," blah, blah, like this. So it's a really good propaganda tool for them. So I want the North Koreans are having a better life, better situation than now. So for them, I think need international help, uh, communities help, especially, like, uh, in terms of English, uh, programs, something, because, uh, m- many of my friends, especially when they, if someone went to America to study abroad, even for six months or one year, after they come back to South Korea, they have an enormous proud of that. Like, you know. And then also it's 'cause it looks good for the resume and that they can learn English. But it's, uh, the chance is really limited for North Koreans. It's really hard to get to study in abroad, in America especially, in English, in speaking English country. So I hope if there's possibilities, just helping North Korean refugees, giving them more chance to study or to learn something in the international community, then it's really help for them.

Speaker 50:17 All right, we're gonna take one last question.

Speaker 50:26 Hi, thanks for coming today and sharing your remarkable stories. Um, I'm Kent. I'm one of several members of this community who have actually visited North Korea as tourists. And I wanted to ask you, because I know before making that decision to go, some of us struggle. We think on one hand, maybe we're helping North Korean people because we're coming from the outside world and giving people exposure. On the other hand, some of our money goes to the government.

Hyeonseo Lee 50:54 Mm.

Speaker 50:54 So what do you think, as someone who's lived there and is now working for, uh, improvement of people's lives in North Korea, do you think it's good for foreigners to visit North Korea or do you think it's bad?

Hyeonseo Lee 51:10 Uh, actually, I'm the person who's against the foreign tourist in, to Pyongyang, because, um, some people think, "Oh, when we visit the North Korea, it's good for them." Like, oh, they, they somehow learn about America by looking, uh, something. They have some different ideas. But as North Korean, what we learnt from the, from the kindergarten exactly, we, also we see the medias, news, everything through the TV. And then when we see a lot of foreigners visiting North Korea, we had the wrong ideas. "Wow, the, the foreigners respect our government a lot, and then they are, like, say, 'Dear Leader, dear blah, blah, blah.'" So, so our coun- we just feel our country is the best in the world. That, like, that's another propaganda tool the North Korean government uses. So yeah. So it's n- and another way is you said, like, a kind of a soft policy or, like, a hard line. Um, uh, many people... I think, yeah, we tried a h- a sanction policy in the past. It didn't worked. And then we also tried hard policy also. It didn't worked. So I want to have something mixed together, not to go this way or the other way. We need mix. But one thing we should real- we should know, uh, even though there is, uh, s- sanctions these days, and even though there is, uh, no help from the outside, uh, something help, aid, but North Korean people still, there's a middle class is raising in North Korea, which means they, many people in North Korea, after the famine, they didn't rely on the government. They are earning money by themselves from the black market or markets. Uh, so they didn't rely on the government totally right now. So individually, they started to have money right now. And then we support the North Korean means support the regime, not the ordinary people. Yeah, that's my answer. [laughs]

Speaker 53:17 Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in thanking Hyeonseo. [clapping] [outro music]