Pixar's Early Days - A Never-Before-Seen Interview With Steve Jobs, 1996

1. 0:00 – 0:33

   Buying into Ed Catmull’s dream of a computer-animated feature

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      Why'd you buy a computer animation company?

   2. SJSteve Jobs0:02

      Um, I met Ed Catmull, um, who was the... who was running the computer division of Lucasfilm, uh, in 1985. And Ed showed me what they were doing. Uh, and he shared with me his dream about making the first computer-animated feature film. And I bought into that dream, both financially [laughs] and spiritually. And it, it took us 10 years to do that, uh, but we did it. And, uh, the first computer-animated feature film, first totally computer synthetic film of any kind, which was Toy Story, fortunately,

2. 0:33 – 1:46

   Why Pixar’s graphics leadership felt inevitable to him

   1. SJSteve Jobs0:33

      uh, um, it came out really well, and it became the third most successful animated film of any type, um, in terms of box office success. So, um, the things that, that captured me were I've, I've been involved in graphics most of my life. Um, the Apple II most people don't remember was the first real color computer that you could get your hands on, and che- cheap one. Um, the Macintosh obviously was graphics. The LaserWriter was graphics, but it was all 2D. And, and we'd done some 3D work at Apple, and I was cer- certainly aware of the field and, and the stuff that Ed and his team were doing was way ahead of anything I'd ever seen anyone do. Uh, and I think Pixar still holds that mantle today. You know, I think it's the mecca of high-end computer graphics.

   2. SPSpeaker1:19

      Y- you bought, uh, Pixar from Lucasfilm.

   3. SJSteve Jobs1:22

      Right.

   4. SPSpeaker1:22

      What kinds of things did you need, did you need to do, both personally as, uh, learning to become a, a filmmaker as along, along with everything else you've become, you, you are, uh, and as a businessman, to put, uh, the company in the position that it's in today, um, and basically head and shoulders above anything else in the industry, um, and put in a position where it's li- literally starting to operate like a studio?

3. 1:46 – 2:16

   Building Pixar as a studio by unifying creative, technical, and production peers

   1. SJSteve Jobs1:46

      Yeah. Well, Pixar is a studio. Um, I, I'm not a filmmaker. Uh, I don't direct our films. John Lasseter does, and I think he's the most brilliant director working in animation today. Uh, what I try to do is help create the environment where all these incredible people [laughs] can make films. So we've got a whole creative team, which is a- about 100 people now, and we've got an incredible technical team, and we've got an incredible production team, and we figured out a way to have all those people work together as peers. Um, that's a really unique thing in the industry in

4. 2:16 – 3:09

   Hiring the best: bridging Hollywood culture and Silicon Valley culture

   1. SJSteve Jobs2:16

      that, um, you know, the, the very best creative people will only go to work at a few places: Disney, Pixar, um, possibly DreamWorks. Um, but the very best people, it's, it's very hard for these other places to get them. In the same s- uh, i- in the same sense, the very best computer scientists in computer graphics will only go to work at a few places, and Pixar is one of those. But most of the studios are not because they don't have that level of a technical culture there, and I think Pixar is the only place in the world that can hire the best from both of these areas. And we've worked for 10 years to, to figure out a way to have them all work together, which is not easy 'cause they come from very... The Hollywood culture and the Silicon Valley culture are really different. And, um, you know, we think we've picked the best from both, so.

5. 3:09 – 3:45

   What “Sillywood” means—and why Pixar stands out

   1. SPSpeaker3:09

      That leads into another question I have. What's Sillywood? [laughs]

   2. SJSteve Jobs3:12

      [laughs] Well, Sillywood's a term for a lot of, uh, you know, uh, Sillywood is a, um, a term that was invented for the space that a lot of companies were in so they could raise investment, but they never produced any products. [laughs] You know, it was sort of technology meeting Hollywood. And, uh, Pixar is the only, only company I know where Silicon Valley and Hollywood have met, where there's actually been any offspring that have been successful. Um, it's a very difficult thing to do.

   3. SPSpeaker3:43

      How's that working out?

   4. SJSteve Jobs3:44

      It's working out great.

6. 3:45 – 5:02

   The Disney partnership and strategic options after the three-picture deal

   1. SPSpeaker3:45

      Now, you have a, a, a relationship right now with Disney.

   2. SJSteve Jobs3:48

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SPSpeaker3:48

      But at a certain point you're gonna break off on your own. Is that, I mean, what's the... Where are you taking Pixar now? Uh, what's on the boards for the next few years, and, and what do you, do you wanna get into the, uh, in it distribution end of it yourself, control more of the product, um, and the ancillaries?

   4. SJSteve Jobs4:05

      Um, well, our, we have a, a relationship with Disney now, and it, it's turning out great actually. Um, we had some fears going into it. I'm sure they did too. This was the first time Disney ever went outside for mainstream animation. And so I'm sure we both approached it with some degree of fear, and it's turned out to be far more s- successful and far more fun and, uh, than we ever imagined. [laughs] So the relationship's going really well with Disney. We love working with them, uh, creatively, uh, from the marketing side. They have very good people. Um, so that's going pretty well. And, and we have a three-picture deal with them, and at, and at the end of that deal, uh, you know, we'll have to make some decisions. Should we, you know, sign up for a longer relationship with Disney? Should we sign up with another studio? Should we, you know, do some more of the marketing ourselves and just rent a studio for distribution? And we don't have to make, we don't have to make those decisions for a few years, and we're busy educating ourselves to understand, you know, uh, what our options are, and I, I think, think we are getting our hands around that.

7. 5:02 – 7:42

   Why commercials and special effects became a bad business model for Pixar

   1. SPSpeaker5:02

      This is a new way. This is, this is really a new kind of existence for computer animation as a business. Um, we talk a lot about where has computer animation gone in the last 20 years-

   2. SJSteve Jobs5:13

      Uh-huh

   3. SPSpeaker5:13

      ... and how is it. Pixar clearly is well beyond where anybody else has gone in terms of, in terms of, of computer animation as a business. How has the business changed?

   4. SJSteve Jobs5:23

      Well, you know, most people doing computer animation, um, n- never got paid for it. They did it as a labor of love, as you know. And, um, the ones that did get paid for it, the business model evolved, uh, to doing commercials and flying logos and special effects. Those were the primary ways that people would get paid for their, their, their, um, their avo- their avocation, to turn it into a vocation. And Pixar did that for a while. We made television commercials. We won most every award in the book. Um, the problem with, with doing commercials and, and special effects is that the business model has eroded, uh, over the last several years. I mean, it's all work for hire. You don't share in any of the upside of what you create. You just get paid for the work once. So if Listerine sold more Listerine because of our commercials, we didn't make any more money for producing the commercials. And the margin in that business, the amount of profit you can make has, has been under pressure because more people have been coming into the special effects business and the commercials business, and it's, it's been going down and down and down and down. And Pixar always operated at the high end of that business because we could do things with character animation that very few others could do. But nonetheless, uh, I think that's a pretty poor business to be in, and there's really kind of no way out of that business. Um, you work harder and harder to make the same amount of money and, and it's, it's pretty difficult. Um, we actually pulled out of the commercials business this year. Uh, we loved the commercials business, it was fun making them and, and it was a great stepping stone for our company. But, you know, we had 25 incredibly talented people there doing work for hire when we have all these other opportunities where we own a piece of what we create. Um, so we, we, uh, reluctantly pulled out because, um, you know, great people are hard to find, and we couldn't afford to have 25 of them making commercials anymore.

   5. SPSpeaker7:17

      Now, you've been a hardware producer and a software producer.

   6. SJSteve Jobs7:21

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SPSpeaker7:21

      And with Pixar, you're a content producer.

   8. SJSteve Jobs7:24

      Right.

   9. SPSpeaker7:25

      And I found it interesting that you didn't want to refer to yourself as a filmmaker, but it... How is, how is what you... your relationship with Pixar different from, say, Louis B. Mayer or some of the o- the, the great studio heads who may not have been directors or producers themselves but certainly had a great deal to do with what was done? Something to think about.

8. 7:42 – 9:03

   Jobs’ role as a studio head: focus, talent, strategy, and relationships

   1. SJSteve Jobs7:42

      Um, well, we're a small studio, and, uh, so we don't want to let any of this go to our heads. [laughs] Uh, and, and we hope... You know, what we're trying to do is to build, um, a great animation studio. We stay very focused on that because if you, you know... The other great animation studio is, of course, Disney, and, um, they've done an incredible job. And as a matter of fact, you know, feature animation is really at the heart of Disney, if you look at it. They've created all the character franchises that really bring, breathe life into the theme parks. Um, and if you look at where the profits come from from Disney, it's, it's a tremendous amount of it has, i- is from feature animation and the videos and stuff directly, or it's, it's really s- sort of dependent on feature animation as is the, as are the theme parks. And, um, what we're doing is just a pure play, you know, to build a feature animation studio. And so my role in that is, is to try to understand, uh, the pieces we need to put in place to do that and then to, you know, work with everybody to attract and, and retain the people to do that and get a clear strategy in place and, you know, help with the relationships with Disney and other people and, and I, I enjoy it tremendously. I mean, we've got an incredible collection of people at Pixar. So I learn a lot. I learn a lot.

9. 9:03 – 10:18

   A leadership model where the CEO supports rare, in-demand talent

   1. SPSpeaker9:03

      Do you like to, uh... I mean, to what degree are you involved with the technical side or the creative side? How... Do you like to get in there and play?

   2. SJSteve Jobs9:09

      Um, well, I, I like to get in there and help where I can. Um, but my greatest joy is when we have people that are much better than I am at something, so I can not wo- forget about it and not worry about it and get onto something else where I can help. Uh, so I, you know... What happens is, is that th- this is the same in technology as it is, uh, at Pixar and, and, and on the creative side, which is where you've got, um, incredibly talented people that are also rare and in demand. Uh, if you don't treat them right, uh, they can go get another job in 10 minutes, right? So this strange thing happens, which is the, the sort of the, the hierarchy of power inverts, and the CEO is actually at the bottom. [laughs] So I sort of feel like I work for most of these people because, um, they're the ones that are doing all the brilliant work, you know? And it's the same, same in the, in, in software. It's the same thing. Uh, the best people are, you know, are very hard to come by and so it's, you know, it's management's job to support them because they're on the front lines doing the work. So that, that's kind of how we run the place.

10. 10:18 – 11:32

    How Pixar tries to operationalize that support (environment, obstacles, teams, quality)

    1. SPSpeaker10:18

       How do you do that?

    2. SJSteve Jobs10:20

       How do we do that?

    3. SPSpeaker10:21

       How do you do that?

    4. SJSteve Jobs10:21

       Um, we do that by creating the right environment, a very rich environment, uh, and removing obstacles out of their way, uh, and putting together the right teams of people, uh, together and getting the right projects, uh, keeping the quality levels very high, both in terms of people and, and strategy and projects. Those kinds of things. You know, helping to manage relationships like the ones with Disney that we have. Um, those kinds of things.

    5. SPSpeaker10:49

       I've-

    6. SJSteve Jobs10:50

       I mean, as an example, our studio has grown tremendously this year. We started off at about 175 people, and we'll be at about 300 people by the end of this year. And one of our major challenges was not to lower the quality bar one iota, um, and we managed to accomplish that. We put together a, you know, a very strong recruiting group. Um, we did a lot of other things that I'd rather not talk about, uh, because they're competitive advantages, and we were able to hire, you know, 125 A-plus people this year. Now, that was something that was incredibly important to the studio, um, as an example of the kinds of things that, you know, management has to do.

    7. SPSpeaker11:26

       Toy Story's a good calling card.

    8. SJSteve Jobs11:28

       To... Uh, Pixar is a very hot place to be right now.

    9. SPSpeaker11:31

       Oh.

    10. SJSteve Jobs11:31

        Yeah.

11. 11:32 – 13:28

    What Pixar learned from Disney about making animated features

    1. SPSpeaker11:32

       It... Now, you talked about working with Disney being beneficial. What kinds of things did, did Disney teach you?

    2. SJSteve Jobs11:37

       Mm.

    3. SPSpeaker11:37

       I mean, feature filmmaking is obviously a very specific kind of industry, and feature animation is different from short films and commercials.

    4. SJSteve Jobs11:45

       Well, as you know, um, making an animated film is entirely different than making a live action film. Um, as you, you know, when you make a live action film, a director typically shoots between 10 and 25 times as much footage as will end up on the screen. They take that into the editing room, and they build their film, and hopefully they can do a good job because if they can't, it's too late. The actors are gone. The sets are down. Um, and Walt Disney, uh- realized, you know, many decades ago that animation was so expensive that you couldn't afford to animate 10 times more than what you need. Matter of fact, you don't want to animate even 10% more than what you need. And therefore, the only conclusion you can come to is you have to edit your film before you make it. So how do you go about doing that? And Disney pioneered a, a lot of, a lot of, um, techniques for doing that, and they've refined those over the last 60 years. Working with Disney gave us access to that wisdom, uh, because you can't buy it for love or money, the wisdom and experience of having made, you know, tens of feature animated films. And, um, I think we learned a tremendous amount, and we've even, we've even been able to improve upon some of those things in, in our own ways. And, um, and I, I think that that education, um, was not available, you know, at any price to anybody else, and we were very fortunate to be able to work with some of Disney's best folks, and they helped us a lot. Um, so I, I think we learned a great deal on Toy Story, and, uh, we've now internalized it into our company as well.

12. 13:28 – 17:06

    No contracts: adopting Silicon Valley’s retention model over Hollywood’s

    1. SPSpeaker13:28

       Getting back to the issue of, of, of working, getting a team together and, and making, making the environment, uh, healthy. I've heard that, you know, one of the things that, that I read a lot about in, in the material from Pixar is that there's no contracts, and that's different than a lot of-

    2. SJSteve Jobs13:42

       Mm-hmm

    3. SPSpeaker13:42

       ... Hollywood production.

    4. SJSteve Jobs13:43

       Sure.

    5. SPSpeaker13:44

       W- talk, talk to me about that. Why... what's the philosophy behind that? What is the op-

    6. SJSteve Jobs13:48

       [coughs] Well, you know, in this, in this, um, blending of a Hollywood culture and a Silicon Valley culture, one of the things that we encountered was that the Hollywood culture and the Silicon Valley culture each use different models of employee, uh, retention. Hollywood uses the stick, which is the contract, and Silicon Valley uses the carrot, which is the stock option. And we examined both of those in, in really pretty great detail, both, you know, both economically, but also sort of, um, psychologically and, and culture-wise. What kind of cu-culture do you end up with? And while there's a lot of reasons to want to lock down your employees for the duration of a film, because if somebody leaves, you're, you know, you're, you're, uh, at risk, those same dangers exist in Silicon Valley. During an engineering project, you don't want to lose people, and yet they, they manage to evolve another system than contracts. And we prefer the Silicon Valley model in this case, um, which, which basically gives people stock in the company, um, so that we all have the same goal, which is to make, create shareholder value. Um, but also it, it makes us constantly worry about making Pixar the greatest company we can so that nobody would ever want to leave. You know, when you sign a contract with somebody, you can sort of say, "Well, I don't have to worry about that person for five years," you know. And if you're real sophisticated, you'll have a little database that tickles you six months before their contract's up, so you can start paying more attention to them, you know. And they're the most important person in the world for six months, and then after they sign up again, you can put them in the drawer. And our system's a little different than that. W- every single day we worry about how can we make Pixar a better company so that nobody will ever want to leave. And we don't take anybody for granted, um, because if they don't want to be at Pixar, then, then probably they should leave anyway, uh, whether or not they would ever have a contract. So, you know, we've watched Silicon Valley, which is, you know, four or five times as big as Hollywood, uh, has grown up much faster than Hollywood, uh, and has grown up on this different model, and we think it's a pretty good model, so we adopted it. And so far it's working really well.

    7. SPSpeaker16:03

       Now, where's all this going? I s- you're operating a significant studio. Lucas is operating a s- a significant operation up here in the Bay Area. The... is this... you know, the technology allows for a significant amount of decentralization from what used to be the industrial heart of the entertainment industry, which was Hollywood, like the industrial heart of the, of, uh, motor, uh, motor vehicle industry, automobile industry was Detroit. Um, and you-

    8. SJSteve Jobs16:28

       [coughs]

    9. SPSpeaker16:28

       ... have also, uh, key... I mean, one of the biggest impacts that you've had is the democratization of, of technology and putting, putting high technology in the hands of, of people, uh, right on your desktop.

    10. SJSteve Jobs16:40

        [coughs]

    11. SPSpeaker16:41

        I've had... I'm on my fifth Macintosh.

    12. SJSteve Jobs16:43

        Oh, great. [chuckles]

    13. SPSpeaker16:44

        I have the... I still have the 128-

    14. SJSteve Jobs16:45

        Uh-huh

    15. SPSpeaker16:45

        ... sitting at home. It was a wonderful machine. Um, brilliant design. Absolutely brilliant. Is... you were key and also involved in, in developing the, uh, graphic user interface, making the t- the technology that much more transparent. Where is all this going?

13. 17:06 – 20:49

    Why enduring stories matter more than technology’s short product cycles

    1. SJSteve Jobs17:06

       Uh, I don't know. I mean, I don't think about this all the time. Um, you know, one of the differences that I've noticed between content and, uh, technology, selling technology boxes, is that, you know, you can hardly find... I mean, I'll relate it to my own life for a m- you can hardly find an Apple II around too much anymore. You still can in the schools, but that's about it. Um, it's not clear whether you'll be able to boot up a Macintosh five years from now or not. Um, and all the products, all these technology boxes and all this software, you know, if it has a life of a year or two, you're very lucky. If it has a life of five years, it's extraordinary. And every once in a while, something has a life of 10 to 15 years, and I've been lucky to be associated with a few of those products as well. But sooner or later, they all become part of the sedimentary layer, [chuckles] you know, which is the foundation for new innovation. Disney released its first animated feature film, Snow White, in 1937. That's 60 years ago. A few years ago, they re-released it on video and sold 28 million copies, making probably around a quarter billion dollars of profit. 60 years after its initial release. And I have a young son, we got it, and he loved it. He watched it 30, 40 times. And it really, um, struck me that m- I, I know people on most of the continents of this world, and I think I know ... I think everyone I know knows the story of Snow White. I don't, I don't think I know one person who doesn't, who hasn't seen it. And watching my, my son watch this, it really hit me that these stories renew themselves with each generation of young children. And, you know, you read Joseph Campbell, I mean, these are our myths. And here's something that's 60 years old that's regenerating itself in my son and other young children. And, you know, I think people are gonna be watching Toy Story in 60 years. Um, not 'cause of the computer graphics, but because of the story, you know, about friendship. And that's something really amazing to me, something very different than, than the industry I worked in in the past. And to have the opportunity to put these stories into the culture like this, if we can, if we can work really hard and be lucky, uh, again and again, uh, is a rare opportunity. And I think everybody at Pixar feels really, really privileged to, to have this opportunity. So that's, that's what we're all about, and we wanna, we wanna make these products that hopefully will be around for a long time, and everybody will get a lot of, you know, enjoyment from and learn from.

    2. SPSpeaker19:52

       I think you answered this question, but one of the questions I have is-

    3. SJSteve Jobs19:54

       [coughs]

    4. SPSpeaker19:55

       ... what kind of challenges, what gets you up in the morning?

    5. SJSteve Jobs19:57

       Oh, that. Obviously, you know? Yeah.

    6. SPSpeaker19:59

       Yeah. I think you have... In f- in, in, in, in motion pictures, you know, historically, in old Disney film, uh-

    7. SJSteve Jobs20:05

       Uh-huh

    8. SPSpeaker20:06

       ... Disney Animation-

    9. SJSteve Jobs20:06

       [sniffs]

    10. SPSpeaker20:07

        ... Warner Bros. Animation, the animators and the filmmakers always put a little bit of themselves in the product.

    11. SJSteve Jobs20:12

        Sure. [coughs]

    12. SPSpeaker20:13

        What... Are... What, what, what Toy Story character are you?

    13. SJSteve Jobs20:16

        [laughs] Oh, I don't know. Um, you know, I mean, Toy Story came out of the heart and mind of John Lasseter. It was the toys he grew up with. And, um, so you should ask that to John. That's a be- he's a better person to ask that to.

    14. SPSpeaker20:36

        So I should ask him what to- what character you are?

    15. SJSteve Jobs20:38

        No, a- what character he was.

    16. SPSpeaker20:39

        Oh, okay.

    17. SJSteve Jobs20:39

        Yeah.

    18. SPSpeaker20:39

        I was, well, I planned to do that-

    19. SJSteve Jobs20:40

        Yeah

    20. SPSpeaker20:40

        ... actually. [laughs] I really did. So where's all this going? What's gonna surprise us?

14. 20:49 – 22:37

    What might surprise viewers next: rendering arms race vs. timeless storytelling

    1. SJSteve Jobs20:49

       Well, you know, on the visual side, um, 10 years ago when we made the, the landmark short film Luxo Jr., um, it took about three hours on average to render each frame of that short film. Now, fast-forward to today, um, Toy Story, computers are 100 times faster, and yet in Toy Story it took three hours on average to render each frame. And, and, uh, the reason was the frames were 100 times more complex in many cases. And, you know, we're throwing, uh, between five and 10 times more computer power at our second feature film, codename Bugs, than we are at, than we did at Toy Story. And, uh, it'll still take three hours to render each frame, and, and I think that's sort of a constant, that we're... Our ambitions visually are growing as fast as the technology can feed them. And so I, I think the worlds, the visual worlds which we'll be able to create will be much richer over time. Um, on the creative side, though, you know, I think the art of storytelling's very old, and no amount of technology can turn a bad story into a good story. I mean, John's taught me that. That's our mantra at Pixar. And, uh, you know, it's the story, stupid, if you will. And so, you know, I think storytelling is a real art, and, and that's something that we're always gonna, you know, always gonna be working on very, very hard. And I, I don't think it's changed in a long time, and I, I'm not sure it will. And I don't think it's something that technology has anything to do with.

    2. SPSpeaker22:33

       Thank you very much.

    3. SJSteve Jobs22:34

       Sure.

    4. SPSpeaker22:34

       As they told me we had half an hour from when I was done, I'm good.

Episode duration: 22:37