Jefferson Fisher | The Next Conversation Workbook | Talks at Google

1. 0:00 – 0:06

   Intro

   1. ZBZara Brownless0:00

      [upbeat music]

2. 0:06 – 1:41

   From trial lawyer to everyday communication: why the workbook exists

   1. ZBZara Brownless0:06

      Jefferson Fisher was an esteemed Texas trial lawyer [lips smack] whose very job when communicating was to win, right? And although he came to reconsider that goal when it comes to communication, he did find that a lot of the tactics that worked in the courtroom could also benefit those of us in our day-to-day lives, in the communication from our dining room table to our boardroom seats, right? And he has come out with not one, but two rather splendid books to help us with just that. One of which we are going to be talking about today, The Next Conversation Workbook. So without further ado, let me introduce you to Jefferson, and we're gonna have a little chat about chatting. Jefferson Fisher, everyone. [audience applauds] Welcome to Google.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:57

      Thanks.

   3. ZBZara Brownless0:58

      Good to have you. I'll pass you right over here.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher1:00

      Hey, everybody.

   5. ZBZara Brownless1:01

      Jefferson, this isn't your first time in New York. When were you last here?

   6. JFJefferson Fisher1:04

      Oh, I was here back in, I don't know, March.

   7. ZBZara Brownless1:07

      March.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher1:07

      Yeah, yeah.

   9. ZBZara Brownless1:08

      Yeah.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher1:08

       Little bit different.

   11. ZBZara Brownless1:09

       Right. But from Texas originally, right?

   12. JFJefferson Fisher1:11

       That's correct.

   13. ZBZara Brownless1:11

       Yeah, yeah. What's your, uh, your general views on the city? How do you like being in New York?

   14. JFJefferson Fisher1:16

       Um, you know, there... I don't understand really. You'll have these gases that, like, come out of the ground-

   15. ZBZara Brownless1:22

       [laughs]

   16. JFJefferson Fisher1:23

       ... and above the ground. And I'm like, "Does anybody question what this... "

   17. ZBZara Brownless1:28

       [laughs]

   18. JFJefferson Fisher1:29

       This feels like it's, it's opening up my pores-

   19. ZBZara Brownless1:31

       [laughs]

   20. JFJefferson Fisher1:31

       ... like at a spa, and like nobody really cares. Uh, it's great.

   21. ZBZara Brownless1:35

       [laughs]

   22. JFJefferson Fisher1:35

       Um, New York is awesome. Uh, the food is great, and the people are even greater. So I'm loving it.

   23. ZBZara Brownless1:40

       The food is pretty great.

   24. JFJefferson Fisher1:41

       Yeah.

3. 1:41 – 2:51

   How the workbook relates to "The Next Conversation" (and what it adds)

   1. ZBZara Brownless1:41

      Um, look, I imagine you might have been experiencing a little bit of deja vu recently because it's pretty hard to talk about your new book without also talking about its bestselling predecessor, The Next Conversation. Um, now tell me, what is the relationship between these books? Is it a codependent relationship? Do they need each other or can they stand alone?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher2:00

      They can stand alone.

   3. ZBZara Brownless2:01

      They can stand alone.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher2:01

      Yeah. They-

   5. ZBZara Brownless2:02

      Tell me a little bit about what these books have to do with each other.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher2:03

      Sure. So last March, uh, I had a book called The Next Conversation come out, and I was honored for it to be, um, New York Best Times. And I was at the, um... It's like that big three-story Barnes & Noble somewhere here in New York.

   7. ZBZara Brownless2:15

      It's sweet.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher2:16

      I'm not really sure where pl- things are yet.

   9. ZBZara Brownless2:18

      [laughs]

   10. JFJefferson Fisher2:18

       Uh, here it's pretty big, but, uh, that was a wonderful time. And the workbook is based on that, but it gives practical exercises.

   11. ZBZara Brownless2:26

       Mm.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher2:26

       So a lot of prompts, a lot of places to journal and write things down to actually apply it. So it's practical exercises for arguing less and talking more.

   13. ZBZara Brownless2:35

       Mm-hmm. I like this because we can sometimes get very bunged up in the theory. Especially in a place like Google, we talk a lot about, like, ideas, and I think putting things actually into an application-focused context is often really important for us. So I'm very glad that you've accompanied what was already an excellent book with an excellent companion.

   14. JFJefferson Fisher2:50

       Thank you, sir.

4. 2:51 – 4:11

   Who Fisher wrote the workbook for: people caught in the middle

   1. ZBZara Brownless2:51

      So look, you, you do communication videos online. They gather tens of millions of views. Um, so clearly your advice resonates very deeply with everyone from engineers to executives and everything in between. You will have a range of those people in the audience with us today. Who did you write this book for? Who do you most hope in the room today, um, will pick up a copy and take a read?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher3:13

      Hm. The person who is kind of that middle, finds themself in the middle. Usually, they have people who are underneath them, and also have to talk to people above them.

   3. ZBZara Brownless3:22

      Mm.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher3:22

      And so they have to manage these relationships where you also have to lead, but also you have to report. And so I find a lot of my content resonates a lot with, uh, teachers because they have of course students, and faculty, and parents, of course.

   5. ZBZara Brownless3:36

      Mm.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher3:36

      And so as a, a son of a teacher, and my sister's a teacher, and my mother-in-law is a principal, there's a, a lot to be said for good communication when it comes to our education.

   7. ZBZara Brownless3:47

      What was it like being raised by amazing teachers like that? It must have taught you a lot about communication from an early age.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher3:52

      It taught me a lot about sitting still and keeping my mouth quiet-

   9. ZBZara Brownless3:56

      [laughs]

   10. JFJefferson Fisher3:57

       ... when they were talking. Um, my brothers, uh, had my mom for a teacher, and Lord, I, I don't wish that I'd [laughs] ... Uh, I didn't have to have that. But, um, yeah, it was... taught me a lot about being very disciplined.

   11. ZBZara Brownless4:11

       [laughs]

5. 4:11 – 6:23

   The biggest communication breakdown: what was said vs. what was heard

   1. ZBZara Brownless4:11

      Being very disciplined. Okay. Well, before we dive into some specifics about some of the ideas, and rules, and principles in your book, um, let's set the stage a little. When I was preparing to chat with you today, I was looking up some quotes about what people tend to say about communication, and I found one from George Bernard Shaw, who famously cautioned that the single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place. Now, I wonder if an Irish playwright and a Texan lawyer would see eye to eye here. Um, what do you think is the single biggest problem in communication?

   2. JFJefferson Fisher4:48

      That what was said was what was heard.

   3. ZBZara Brownless4:52

      Right.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher4:52

      And usually we get into this conflict, and anybody who's been in any kind of relationship knows what it feels like to go, "I didn't say that." And they go, "Yeah, you did." And you're like-

   5. ZBZara Brownless5:03

      [laughs]

   6. JFJefferson Fisher5:03

      ... "That's not what I said." And they're like, "I, I, I wish I had it recorded."

   7. ZBZara Brownless5:06

      [laughs]

   8. JFJefferson Fisher5:06

      "You know what? I wish I had a video camera to show you that you said this." And you're like, "That's not how I said it."

   9. ZBZara Brownless5:11

      [laughs]

   10. JFJefferson Fisher5:11

       And so we have this skewed understanding of just because I said it is exactly how the other person receives it. So instead of saying, "That's not what I said," what I would consider you to try, after the principles in my book, is instead saying, "Well, what did you hear?"

   11. ZBZara Brownless5:27

       Mm.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher5:27

       "What did you hear?" And that allows you to at least have some kind of perspective that we're terrible, subjective judgers of what we say because we not only will say my words, I also will interpret them for you, and that's where we get in trouble.

   13. ZBZara Brownless5:43

       Fascinating. So actually it turns out an Irish playwright and a Texan lawyer might actually share something in common there. I think, like-

   14. JFJefferson Fisher5:49

       Yeah

   15. ZBZara Brownless5:49

       ... there's a fascinating idea about, like, if what George Bernard Shaw was trying to do was, like, write something for an audience to hear. And what you're often doing in the courtroom is, you know, delivering something that a, a jury or a, a judge or s- some kind of adjudicator is gonna hear. Actually, maybe those things are more similar than they might in some ways appear on the surface. Anyway, I am neither a Texas playwright nor a Texan lawyer, but I'm a British behavioral scientist, which is hard to say, but fun to do. Um, so I share your fascination with- ... human behavior and communication. And I think a lot about how behavioral biases influence how we talk-

   16. JFJefferson Fisher6:22

       Mm

   17. ZBZara Brownless6:22

       ... how we argue.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher6:23

       Mm.

6. 6:23 – 9:13

   Cognitive dissonance in conversation: the instant “I don’t like that” reaction

   1. ZBZara Brownless6:23

      Um, and you talk about several such phenomena in your book, from fundamental attribution error, to, uh, confirmation bias, the autonomic nervous system, to the idea of flooding. The one that really stands out to me though, slightly selfishly 'cause it's what I wrote my thesis on-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher6:39

      [laughs]

   3. ZBZara Brownless6:39

      ... is cognitive dissonance.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher6:40

      Mm-hmm.

   5. ZBZara Brownless6:41

      Tell me what cognitive dissonance has to do with communication. How it shows up, um, for better or for worse, and what we can do about it.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher6:52

      You know, I, I come from a small town in Texas, and so though this is not gonna be the best use of my vocabulary, cognitive dissonance is that part in a conversation when you're listening, you go, "Eh, I don't really like that."

   7. ZBZara Brownless7:05

      Mm.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher7:05

      I hear an opinion, "Eh, I don't really... I don't agree with that opinion."

   9. ZBZara Brownless7:09

      Mm.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher7:09

       Cognitive dissonance really, uh, in my opinion, shows up when you hear something and without even thinking about it, you go, like you just start to frown. You start to go, "I don't know if I agree with that. I don't know if I like that." Anything that somebody says, any kind of opinion that they give, we have this filter of saying, does this agree with me or is this something that does not agree with me? Every opinion that is different from yours, however big or however small, it hits that system to where you feel that dissonance of going, "That doesn't agree with me." So you might hear an opinion that disagrees with something you learned when you were six. It's an opinion that disagrees with something your grandmother believed.

   11. ZBZara Brownless7:51

       Mm.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher7:51

       It's something that's deeply rooted within you. And all of a sudden when you hear an opinion that's different from yours, we just put up our walls, and all of a sudden we get into confirmation bias. We get into different types-

   13. ZBZara Brownless8:02

       Right

   14. JFJefferson Fisher8:02

       ... of modes where we start defending and filtering out everything. You see this a lot with juries. In a opening argument is crucial. In fact, even before that, when I'm picking a jury, what they call voir dire down in Texas, voir dire up here-

   15. ZBZara Brownless8:16

       [laughs]

   16. JFJefferson Fisher8:16

       ... in, uh, the Northeast, and that's simply a process where it's my first chance to paint a frame about the case. And instantly, without even knowing it, every jury and every person even here is you're starting to sniff of, I don't know, does this guy know his stuff? Does he not know his stuff? I, I don't know if I really like him. And you start looking at every little microexpression. And once you decide, I like this side, you immediately filter out everything that doesn't go with that side. So we do that every little argument, every opinion that we hear.

   17. ZBZara Brownless8:47

       Mm. And like how... what can we do about it? Like if you're talking to someone or you're trying to convince them of something or-

   18. JFJefferson Fisher8:53

       Mm

   19. ZBZara Brownless8:53

       ... explain a concept to them. And I think we can also see it happening in the people we talk to, right? You can notice when you're like, you're saying something and it's just hitting a kind of, uh, membrane wall around them where they're like, "Nuh-uh, that doesn't-

   20. JFJefferson Fisher9:04

       [laughs]

   21. ZBZara Brownless9:04

       ... I don't agree with that," or it, uh, "That doesn't a- align with what I already believe."

   22. JFJefferson Fisher9:07

       Mm.

   23. ZBZara Brownless9:07

       What can we do about it when we're trying to communicate with someone like that?

7. 9:13 – 11:21

   Why facts often fail—and the “learn, not prove” mindset shift

   1. JFJefferson Fisher9:13

      It's an understanding that the person you see is not necessarily the person you're talking to. We all have a surface and we all have a depth. And usually if I were to tell you you're wrong, I might also be saying your grandfather's wrong.

   2. ZBZara Brownless9:26

      Mm.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher9:26

      Your mom's wrong. All these deeply held beliefs that you've had your whole life, that experience you had when you were at camp when you were eight is all wrong. And you will go to the ends of the earth to keep that comfort rather than reject it, because you keep to what you know. That's why a lot of the times in arguments evidence doesn't work, facts don't work. You have all this stuff in online and in news articles and politics where they do fact checker. Does anybody... Does it really sway anybody? Generally, no. 'Cause a lot of the times the facts don't matter, it's the strongly held belief that we've had. So what do you do instead? It, it's, um, if there's something I want you to remember from our brief time, it is this. When you go into that difficult conversation, you want to change somebody's mind, have something to learn, not something to prove. So the more you can stop pushing your opinion and instead flip it and start trying to learn more about their opinion, it opens them up. And all of a sudden their drawbridge starts to come down, 'cause they start to share. And then they kinda get curious about where you are. So instead of the w- why do you, why do you believe that? It's instead of the why, use an open-ended question. Well, how long have you felt that way? What led to that? When did you first take to that opinion? Find ways to get them curious, and that's where real conversation happens.

   4. ZBZara Brownless10:52

      And because, you know, we're not talking with a machine where it's like input in equals input out.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher10:57

      Mm-hmm.

   6. ZBZara Brownless10:57

      Where it's like if I give you this fact you will ingest it in a-

   7. JFJefferson Fisher11:01

      Yeah

   8. ZBZara Brownless11:01

      ... entirely detached way, right?

   9. JFJefferson Fisher11:02

      Or like-

   10. ZBZara Brownless11:03

       Um

   11. JFJefferson Fisher11:03

       ... Claude or AI Chat-

   12. ZBZara Brownless11:04

       Yeah, exactly

   13. JFJefferson Fisher11:05

       ... or whatever. Yeah.

   14. ZBZara Brownless11:05

       Exactly, yeah. We're not, we're not talking with like machines here, we're talking people.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher11:08

       Or Google, AI. I don't know.

   16. ZBZara Brownless11:09

       [laughs]

   17. JFJefferson Fisher11:10

       Okay, sorry. But-

   18. ZBZara Brownless11:12

       Gemini, yeah, yeah.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher11:13

       What do you call yours?

   20. SPSpeaker11:14

       [laughs]

   21. JFJefferson Fisher11:14

       Yeah, yeah, sorry.

   22. ZBZara Brownless11:15

       [laughs]

   23. JFJefferson Fisher11:15

       I don't know which one.

   24. ZBZara Brownless11:16

       Appropriately named-

   25. JFJefferson Fisher11:17

       Yeah, yeah

   26. ZBZara Brownless11:17

       ... after the idea of being two-faced, right? Like-

   27. JFJefferson Fisher11:19

       Yeah, there we go. Yeah

   28. ZBZara Brownless11:19

       ... um, so yes.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher11:20

       That's what I meant. Yeah.

8. 11:21 – 13:38

   AI and communication: useful tool, but it can’t create trust

   1. ZBZara Brownless11:21

      Actually, this is a great segue because, you know, we're in a tech audience today. Like many others here I spend a lot of time thinking about how technology interacts with communication.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher11:30

      Mm-hmm.

   3. ZBZara Brownless11:31

      Um, specifically how technological shifts influence our communication trends and tendencies. So like today y- you know, smartphone revolution made innumerable changes to the way we tend to communicate. You can FaceTime a far-flung family member anytime, anyplace, but we tend to actually text over popping on a call these days. Whereas in the past we probably did more voice-to-voice communication. And as with most things, there's two sides to this coin, right? There's the ways in which the smartphone m- revolution made communication, um, you know, easier, um, and deeper in some ways. But also ways in which it maybe made it harder and more superficial. And now we're no longer in the smartphone revolution, we're in the AI revolution.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher12:18

      Mm.

   5. ZBZara Brownless12:19

      What do you see as the ways that AI is affecting how we communicate? And what are, what are the two sides of the coin here?

   6. JFJefferson Fisher12:26

      Well, let's just go ahead and put it out. A lot of people use AI, um, to say, "Hey, I'm about to have a conversation," or, "I wanna change this email." And we use it as a tool to help us go, "This is kind of what I want to, to talk about." And I think it's fantastic because it gives you another way of... another picture. Because sometimes our minds can be pretty stubborn. Sometimes our minds can be, "Well, this is how I want them to interpret it, and I want to interpret it for them."

   7. ZBZara Brownless12:51

      Mm.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher12:52

      AI can give you words, but it, it can't... Uh, how can I put this? AI can build sentences. It can't build trust. AI can't build character. AI can't build the integrity of wherever you're working. So it can give you tools, but it, it can't do things that only human connection can do. So if I want to build trust with you, I can't be like, "Hold up. Real quick, let me-

   9. ZBZara Brownless13:22

      [laughs]

   10. JFJefferson Fisher13:24

       You wanna trust me?" You know, it doesn't, it doesn't happen that way. And so we will always favor the in-person smile and the in-person touch rather than the winky face.

9. 13:38 – 16:14

   Using AI as a thought partner: spotting blind spots and distilling your message

   1. ZBZara Brownless13:38

      And I, I find I sometimes think, um, from a behavioral science perspective, one strategy that can work for people who are both, like, feeling very resistant to using AI, whether to improve their communication, draft an email or otherwise-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher13:51

      Mm

   3. ZBZara Brownless13:51

      ... and people who are, like, really leaning into it, is the idea of like a veto list. Like saying to yourself, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna decide what things there are in my life that I'm not gonna use AI for ever."

   4. JFJefferson Fisher14:00

      Right.

   5. ZBZara Brownless14:00

      Like, I always think of the example of like your, your wedding vows, right?

   6. JFJefferson Fisher14:04

      [laughs]

   7. ZBZara Brownless14:04

      Like, can you imagine being stood across from your partner on your wedding day-

   8. JFJefferson Fisher14:08

      Yeah

   9. ZBZara Brownless14:08

      ... and they're like, you know, they're saying their vows to you and you're like, "That sounded like ChatGPT."

   10. JFJefferson Fisher14:14

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. ZBZara Brownless14:14

       Um [laughs]

   12. JFJefferson Fisher14:14

       Exactly.

   13. ZBZara Brownless14:15

       Right? [laughs]

   14. JFJefferson Fisher14:15

       That would be a little, that'd be a little rough.

   15. ZBZara Brownless14:17

       And I think we could all... there are parts of our lives we wouldn't want AI to encroach in, but sometimes actually setting that boundary can, for people that are feeling resistant to AI, setting that boundary can then actually help them feel more open-

   16. JFJefferson Fisher14:27

       Mm-hmm

   17. ZBZara Brownless14:27

       ... to the parts of their life where they actually are like, "Okay, now actually I can be more receptive to the idea that there are parts of my life I would be comfortable using-

   18. JFJefferson Fisher14:34

       Yeah

   19. ZBZara Brownless14:34

       ... AI for."

   20. JFJefferson Fisher14:35

       And I find that it's, it's very good at helping me see blind spots.

   21. ZBZara Brownless14:40

       Mm.

   22. JFJefferson Fisher14:40

       So maybe if you have a conversation that's coming up and to ask it, to have, what are the blind spots of this conversation? How are they going to interpret it? What's a way that I might be able to approach it?

   23. ZBZara Brownless14:48

       Yeah.

   24. JFJefferson Fisher14:49

       And so using it as a thought partner, uh, is, is to me in- invaluable. It just can't say the words for you. It can't make you say things confident.

   25. ZBZara Brownless14:59

       Mm.

   26. JFJefferson Fisher14:59

       So it can, it can give you the actual words, and you could recite them. But unless you say them in a way that's you, in a way that's genuine, it's, it doesn't mean a thing.

   27. ZBZara Brownless15:10

       Yeah. And I know you love to get to the practical, so what, what's a practical way that you've been using AI in your work or communication lately to your benefit?

   28. JFJefferson Fisher15:20

       Hmm. A lot of the times I will... I might have a thought. So I have a rule in my company. It's three wor- three sentences or less. That's what I try to keep emails to.

   29. ZBZara Brownless15:28

       Okay.

   30. JFJefferson Fisher15:29

       And sometimes I have a big thought, and it's hard for me at the moment to kinda condense it down to three sentences. And so I might just get it and verbalize my whole thought, and I say, "Give me three sentences." And then it helps me distill, like, what are the essential parts that I really need them to know? 'Cause most of the time, and this is the same thing in jury trials, you feel like they need to know all this information, all the evidence, every file, every record. But really they don't. They only need this little, bitty thing that makes the difference. 'Cause a lot of the times you'll have this piece of evidence that you think this is really what the whole case is about, and the jury goes, "No. I didn't care about that. I cared about this."
10. 16:14 – 17:25

    What people remember: the feeling you leave, not the information you share

    1. ZBZara Brownless16:14

       I see this all the time in, like, public speaking forums like this, whether a fireside or a keynote. You'll talk for, like, I don't know, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 40 minutes.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher16:22

       Mm-hmm.

    3. ZBZara Brownless16:22

       And you'll always feel like there was stuff you didn't get around to saying. And then you'll talk to an... maybe lucky enough to cross paths with an audience member-

    4. JFJefferson Fisher16:29

       Yeah

    5. ZBZara Brownless16:29

       ... like the next day or a week later, and they might, if you're lucky, have remembered one specific thing you said.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher16:35

       Yeah.

    7. ZBZara Brownless16:35

       So like the... It's a numbers game. It's like you're gonna say all this stuff, and very little is actually gonna, like, truly go through and stay.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher16:43

       Oh, yeah.

    9. ZBZara Brownless16:43

       You know?

    10. JFJefferson Fisher16:43

        Yeah. I've done it before where I've spoke and, and I... the next day I saw somebody and they were like, "Yeah, I just, I remember... You had that shirt. That's the same shirt that my cousin has."

    11. ZBZara Brownless16:52

        [laughs]

    12. JFJefferson Fisher16:52

        And I was like, "Oh, that's, that's awesome." Like [laughs]

    13. ZBZara Brownless16:55

        [laughs]

    14. JFJefferson Fisher16:56

        And, and that just, that just happens. What you think is the information they d- that they remember, it's not. And that's the same thing. People rarely remember what you taught them. They remember how you talked to them. Uh, it's not the things you say, it's often the, how you made them feel-

    15. ZBZara Brownless17:11

        Yeah

    16. JFJefferson Fisher17:11

        ... with it. And so it's, it's that same underlying thing of what's, why, what makes them go, "You know what? I kinda like that person." Usually it's not the thing that we think. It's, it's something else.

    17. ZBZara Brownless17:21

        I don't know. That saying, well, yeah, it's not what you said, it's how you made them feel that people remember.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher17:25

        Yeah.

11. 17:25 – 22:13

    Moving between communication cultures: relatability, humility, and perspective language

    1. ZBZara Brownless17:25

       Yeah, totally. Okay. I wa- I wanna talk a little bit about, um, I alluded to this in my intro, like subcultures of communication-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher17:32

       Mm-hmm

    3. ZBZara Brownless17:32

       ... and how we move through them. So big tech, like most industries, is actually pretty incestuous, right? Like, most of us have either worked at Apple or Microsoft or Meta in the past or will do at some point in the future. That's the way most industries work, right? And big tech also, like most industries, um, has particular kinds of communication culture, right? Both practically, in terms of the tools that we use. Like, people always talk about, like, Slack messages, and I'm like, that always goes right over my head, 'cause I'm like, we don't use Slack here, right? Um, you know, compared to, say like you look at how big law tends to communicate.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher18:06

       Mm-hmm.

    5. ZBZara Brownless18:06

       Or how the arts or how education have cultures of communication.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher18:09

       Mm-hmm.

    7. ZBZara Brownless18:10

       So in Google, for instance, um, we have this word called Googliness, very aptly named, right? It captures our unique emphasis on, like, moving quickly and not taking ourselves too seriously. And that comes from-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher18:21

       Can you use it in a sentence?

    9. ZBZara Brownless18:22

       Um, keep being Googly

    10. JFJefferson Fisher18:25

        Oh

    11. ZBZara Brownless18:25

        Right?

    12. JFJefferson Fisher18:25

        Okay.

    13. ZBZara Brownless18:26

        Like that's often a thing you'll see-

    14. JFJefferson Fisher18:27

        That sounds great, guys

    15. ZBZara Brownless18:28

        ... showing up in like [laughs]

    16. JFJefferson Fisher18:28

        Yeah, that sounds great.

    17. ZBZara Brownless18:29

        [laughs]

    18. JFJefferson Fisher18:30

        Keep doing that. That was a long-

    19. ZBZara Brownless18:31

        We have, we have like great peer recognition incentives around where you can kind of like give a colleague a little like peer bonus for helping you out with something.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher18:38

        Yeah.

    21. ZBZara Brownless18:39

        And often in the text of that peer bonus will be something like, you know, they're so gloovy or like, you know, great googliness or something.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher18:46

        Yeah.

    23. ZBZara Brownless18:47

        [laughs] I'm seeing a mixture of emotion.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher18:50

        Use that. I'm gonna use that in-

    25. ZBZara Brownless18:51

        [laughs] It's-

    26. JFJefferson Fisher18:51

        ... my life, yeah

    27. ZBZara Brownless18:52

        ... it's great. Um, it's, it was something-

    28. JFJefferson Fisher18:54

        [laughs]

    29. ZBZara Brownless18:54

        ... I was excited to be a part of when I joined Google and I was like-

    30. JFJefferson Fisher18:56

        It sounds awesome, yeah
12. 22:13 – 23:25

    Creating an “owner’s manual” for how you communicate and what you permit

    1. ZBZara Brownless22:13

       And there's also, is it the operator's manual that you talk about as well?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher22:18

       Yeah.

    3. ZBZara Brownless22:18

       It's kind of like this, this practical thing that you can use to help people know how to communicate with you. Tell me a little bit about that and how that maybe can help in these sort of like culture transition moments.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher22:31

       We invest a lot in all kinds of things. Most people care more about how they make their coffee and how they drink their coffee than how they think about how they communicate. And w- what I created was to help you make an owner's manual, manual. Meaning, what you say is who you are. If you want to be a kind person you have to use kind words. If you want to be seen as aggressive, well, y- there's words for that too. So how do you find a way of going, "This is what I allow. This is how I will allow myself to be spoken to. This is what I will permit. And this is what I will not allow, and this is what I will not permit." And so I have a lot of these kind of fill-in-the-blank places to where you get to sketch out. Like, how do I, how do I wanna be spoken to? What will I ... That goes into boundaries, right? And then also, what words am I going to use to say, "This is how I wanna communicate." If you want to be remembered, what you say is who you are.

13. 23:25 – 26:00

    Phrases that undermine credibility: replacing “Does that make sense?” with real questions

    1. ZBZara Brownless23:25

       And, yeah, while we're on the topic of tech culture, I have to say throughout the book you call out several phrases that I see all the time, every day-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher23:34

       Yeah

    3. ZBZara Brownless23:34

       ... show up in how we talk to each other.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher23:36

       [laughs]

    5. ZBZara Brownless23:36

       Um, and they tend to be phrases which like undermine our credibility or our confidence. Um, you know, like close your eyes for a moment, okay? Do me a favor. Close your eyes. Put up a hand if you've ever said, um, "Sorry to bother you." Okay, keep your hands up. Add your hand if you said, "This might be a dumb question." Yep, a few more. Um, and finally, "Does that make sense?" Okay, open your eyes. [laughs] Lots of hands up around you. Everyone's in good company here. "Does that make sense?" is a particularly big one-

    6. JFJefferson Fisher24:10

       Yes

    7. ZBZara Brownless24:10

       ... here at Google, right. Personally, I do the thing where I use just in moments where I don't need one. Just to clarify, uh, just to ask something, right? You call out these phrases as things that we don't really need-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher24:23

       Mm-hmm

    9. ZBZara Brownless24:23

       ... and that are undermining us in ways we might not fully appreciate. If you could eradicate one phrase from- Tech culture communication tomorrow, what would it be, why, and what would you replace it with?

    10. JFJefferson Fisher24:36

        Ooh. Um, there's several.

    11. ZBZara Brownless24:39

        Mm.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher24:39

        The one that I think resonates the most is does that make sense?

    13. ZBZara Brownless24:43

        Yeah.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher24:44

        It's real easy to kinda tag on to the end of your sentences, and it often becomes a crutch. And I know why you do it.

    15. ZBZara Brownless24:50

        [laughs]

    16. JFJefferson Fisher24:51

        All right? You wanna make sure that what you said made logical sense, right?

    17. ZBZara Brownless24:56

        [laughs]

    18. JFJefferson Fisher24:57

        And what happens is the other person hears something different, right? They hear one of two things. Either one, you're making sure that they got it because you're not sure they're smart enough to get it.

    19. ZBZara Brownless25:10

        [laughs]

    20. JFJefferson Fisher25:11

        Does that make sense-

    21. SPSpeaker25:12

        [laughs]

    22. JFJefferson Fisher25:13

        ... to your little brain?

    23. ZBZara Brownless25:14

        [laughs]

    24. JFJefferson Fisher25:16

        Or, or you're not really sure what you're talking about.

    25. ZBZara Brownless25:20

        [laughs]

    26. JFJefferson Fisher25:21

        And so you kinda have to say it out loud. Does that make sense?

    27. ZBZara Brownless25:24

        Like I'm not sure-

    28. JFJefferson Fisher25:25

        Yeah

    29. ZBZara Brownless25:25

        ... it makes sense.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher25:26

        Yeah.
14. 26:00 – 29:36

    The power of silence: short pauses for thought, long pauses for rude remarks (and when to wait)

    1. ZBZara Brownless26:00

       Yeah. [laughs] You argue that in communication silence can be a very powerful tool, as I'm currently demonstrating. [laughs] Um, can you explain the difference between a short pause and a long one, and how we should use each, especially in a fast-paced environment like ours?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher26:22

       Whenever you hear somebody pause, kind of like I just did, I gave it about two more seconds, it signals to you that I'm thinking. If I just give rapid responses to everything you say, it often signals that I'm, I'm just, I'm all about speed. I'm not actually thinking. But imagine asking somebody a question and they're going, "Give me one more moment to think about that." You go, "Oh, okay. That's different. They're actually thinking. They're actually appreciating what I'm saying." I can tell you the people who sound and look the most confident in interviews are the people that when you ask them a question, they sit back and go, "Hmm." Rather than having some rapid fire nightly TV show talking head response. You go, "That's a great question. Let me think." Take time to actually think. People appreciate that. Short pauses are great for capturing the point. Long pauses are great for when somebody's saying something that's mean or rude or belittling. Five to seven seconds of saying nothing often reflects back as like an echo to them. Somebody says something ugly. Imagine you saying something really mean to me, and instead of responding, I just gave it five seconds. Becomes uncomfortable for them 'cause now their words are out in the open.

    3. ZBZara Brownless27:39

       Mm-hmm.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher27:40

       And I get to kinda say, "Are you good with what you just said? You sure you, you good with that?" And often they'll take it back or they'll apologize, or maybe they'll double down. But silence can never be misquoted, so it's much better to leave it there. Also, when it comes to like email or text, take time. If you're not really sure what to say, that means you shouldn't say, send anything at all. You should wait. Often if I am heated about something and I just like rapid fire, I decide like the, that message was really rude, 'cause of course we always read that it's rude. It could be like, "Have a good day." I'm like, "Have a good day?"

    5. ZBZara Brownless28:16

       [laughs]

    6. SPSpeaker28:16

       [laughs]

    7. JFJefferson Fisher28:17

       Like, you know, we always read it, we always read it negative. Uh, and you're like, "Can you ... Come here. Can you read this? Can you see what they said? They said have a good day." And instead of that, just, just wait, even till the next morning. Whatever is most urgent typically is not, so don't let somebody's urgency become your priority.

    8. ZBZara Brownless28:35

       Hmm. And I, I wonder if some folks might worry that using a pause might be misinterpreted as uncertainty.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher28:42

       Mm-hmm.

    10. ZBZara Brownless28:43

        Or not knowing what to do. Is there anything we can be doing with our, like, you know, other sort of like vocal noises like, "Hmm," or our face to just like convey that like, "Hey, I'm not glitching right here."

    11. JFJefferson Fisher28:53

        Yeah.

    12. ZBZara Brownless28:54

        Right? This isn't like a system loading moment.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher28:56

        Right.

    14. ZBZara Brownless28:56

        Um, I actually am thinking. Is there anything you tend to do subtly to just signify this is an intentional pause?

    15. JFJefferson Fisher29:02

        No. I like-

    16. ZBZara Brownless29:02

        [laughs] No. You just run the risk. [laughs]

    17. JFJefferson Fisher29:04

        I, I, I ... No, I like the full sentence. I'm gonna s- I'm, I'm gonna rather say, "I'm not ignoring you. I'm thinking."

    18. ZBZara Brownless29:09

        Right. Yeah, yeah.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher29:10

        Yeah. A lot of the times like in a argument in a relationship maybe and you ... It's just a big pause, and you're like, "Did you hear me?" Like are you just thinking of like-

    20. ZBZara Brownless29:18

        Mm-hmm

    21. JFJefferson Fisher29:18

        ... it's much better to go, "No, I, I hear you. I'm thinking of how I wanna respond." Or, "I, I need time with that before I respond. I need to think a moment before I say something." Like that signals strength. It does not signal weakness. So just use the full sentences.

15. 29:36 – 32:30

    Communicating on video calls: show warmth, use your hands, and keep answers concise

    1. ZBZara Brownless29:36

       I think that'll actually be especially important in a video call context. Because that ... This was another thing I was gonna ask you about. I was like at Google we spend a lot of time on video calls, and we're not alone. The video conferencing industry is booming. $10 billion and growing, right? Tons of people are on video calls these days. And, um, it's not just team meetings that are happening on these calls. You talked about interviews, like a lot of job interviews are happening on video calls these days. Um, you're a keynote speaker as well. Keynotes are happening virtually these days-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher30:01

       Mm

    3. ZBZara Brownless30:01

       ... more and more often. So you know, big stakes moments happening on a screen.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher30:06

       Mm-hmm.

    5. ZBZara Brownless30:06

       And communication can be a little different on the screen than face-to-face. And I can imagine, for instance, in a pause on a screen you don't want people to think like, "Has their internet dropped?"

    6. JFJefferson Fisher30:17

       Yeah.

    7. ZBZara Brownless30:17

       Like they ... I've had that before where I'm thinking-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher30:18

       Right

    9. ZBZara Brownless30:18

       ... and they're like, "Oh, are you still there?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm just thinking." [laughs]

    10. JFJefferson Fisher30:21

        Yeah, yeah.

    11. ZBZara Brownless30:21

        So like yeah, sometimes, um, there are nuances to communicating-

    12. JFJefferson Fisher30:25

        Mm-hmm

    13. ZBZara Brownless30:25

        ... via screen than via face-to-face. Do you have any, any notes on how we can be communicating better- on screen when we can't be face to face with someone?

    14. JFJefferson Fisher30:36

        Well, one, it's, it's gonna be something y'all all know, uh, even though you may not want to do it. Smiling on a video screen is never a bad thing, so let me just put that aside. Two is your hands. The more people can see your hands even in screens rather than if it was just cut off and it's all they see is a talking head, it's hard to kind of place things into context. We use hands a lot when we talk as well as our facial f- features. So I would treat it just as any kind of normal conversation. What I would ... I'd say number three, what I try to emphasize on video calls, the shorter the answer, the better it typically tends to go. Because on video it's much easier for your mind to wander. You're on the screen and all of a sudden you're like, "What am I having for lunch?" Like you [laughs]

    15. ZBZara Brownless31:19

        [laughs]

    16. JFJefferson Fisher31:19

        You start wondering about like ... It's c- Because what? You're probably not wearing pants. You may be looking at a screen.

    17. SPSpeaker31:25

        [laughs]

    18. JFJefferson Fisher31:26

        And then you're like, "Ah, my feet are kind of cold. I need to get socks."

    19. ZBZara Brownless31:29

        [laughs]

    20. JFJefferson Fisher31:29

        And you're like thinking about other stuff. And so if I can keep the answers really short and concise, the faster that conversation is, is going to go. So when you, when you give that long information, it's hard. So what I like to teach is rather than being a waterfall, be a well. Right? Rather than over-explaining and telling them things they probably already know. Say your sentence. At least limit it to three sentences if you can. And then if they have a question, they will ask. Everybody that's on your Zoom call is highly intelligent despite what you might think.

    21. ZBZara Brownless32:05

        [laughs]

    22. JFJefferson Fisher32:06

        Right? Allow them [laughs] trust them enough. They have the agency to ask a question.

    23. ZBZara Brownless32:15

        Please join me in giving a big hands to our terrific guest today.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher32:17

        Thank you guys. [clapping] Thank you all very much. Appreciate it. [outro music]

Episode duration: 32:35