EVERY SPOKEN WORD
75 min read · 14,828 words- 0:00 – 1:31
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- TFTim Ferriss
[upbeat music] Hello, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to interview world-class performers and world-class experts of different types from all different fields. My guest today is Dr. Brené Brown. Dr. Brené Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston, where she holds the Huffington Foundation Brené Brown Endowed Chair at The Graduate College of Social Work. She has spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy, and is the author of five, count them, five number one New York Times bestsellers: The Gifts of Imperfection, Daring Greatly, Rising Strong, Braving the Wilderness, and her latest book, Dare to Lead, which is the culmination of a seven-year study on courage and leadership. Her TED Talk, The Power of Vulnerability, is one of the top five most viewed TED Talks in the world with more than 35 million views. Let that sink in, 35 million views. My goodness. She is also the first researcher to have a filmed talk on Netflix. The Call to Courage special debuted on the streaming service in April of 2019. She lives in Houston, Texas with her husband, Steve. They have two children, Ellen and Charlie. She also has a brand-new podcast just in, should be launching right about now, called Unlocking Us coming out March 2020. You can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- 1:31 – 6:10
Why women love Brené
- TFTim Ferriss
Brené, welcome back to the show.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
I'm excited to be here.
- TFTim Ferriss
It's so good to see you.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
I love your digs.
- TFTim Ferriss
Thank you very much. Beautiful Austin, Texas.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
Although you can't see much of it right now with the cloud cover. But I wanted to start with two things that happened today.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Okay.
- TFTim Ferriss
Number one, talking to my girlfriend this morning and she says, "Oh, who are you interviewing today?" And I say, "Brené Brown." She goes, " [gasps] I love how casually you say that." And then a woman downstairs, I won't mention by name, who works in the building, similar story, similar reaction. And I have met so many women who are otherwise very tightly composed who start gushing at the mere mention of your name. And what I would love to hear you comment on is what chord do you think you have struck or what archetype are you providing that gets that response? Because it, it's not a common response. I know a lot of very successful or very famous women who do not elicit that kind of response from people. How do you explain that?
- BBDr. Brené Brown
No idea.
- TFTim Ferriss
No idea?
- BBDr. Brené Brown
No idea. Um, I don't know.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Do you know?
- TFTim Ferriss
I have perhaps a theory. I mean, the only other person I've heard elicit similar responses is Esther Perel. So I-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Love her
- TFTim Ferriss
... have to imagine, she's great, that it has something to do with vulnerability. But is it just that? I mean, what, what is the feedback that people give you?
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Okay. So I do have a theory.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And I don't know, I don't know if this, I don't know if this is the driver of that reaction because it's still shocking to me. Like normally, like if somebody, if I walk up and someone goes, " [gasps] " I still like look behind me like, "What's happening?"
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Like, you know, or mostly I'm looking for danger 'cause that's [laughs] how I'm wired.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
But, um, here's what my new theory is. My new theory is that it's not that people... I mean, people, I think, appreciate the research, they appreciate the work, but I think what really connects to people, uh, kind of across gender, is what they really like is watching me struggle with my own work.
- TFTim Ferriss
Hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
So rather than being someone that's like, "Here's what we should all be doing" and, you know-
- TFTim Ferriss
"I've got it all figured out"
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... "I've got it all figured out," I'm like, "This shit sucks." Like and if I-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... didn't think we had to do it, I'd be like, "No way in hell am I doing this."
- 6:10 – 8:09
On setting boundaries
- BBDr. Brené Brown
I don't like anybody enough.
- TFTim Ferriss
How did you, and I know we, we spoke about using a certain format for this conversation. We'll get to those.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Okay.
- TFTim Ferriss
But I'm curious as someone who as best I can tell was not trying to become famous, you gave your TED Talk that now has 35 plus million views. It's one of the top talks of all time. So it, it seems from the outside looking in that you were sort of thrust into becoming a public figure. How did you navigate determining where to draw lines and boundaries?
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Well, I don't know. I- it's still a daily practice. I'm still drawing them every day, and I'm readjusting them every day, but I am so grateful that this didn't happen to me when I was younger because I don't know... There's like this working theory that a friend of mine, Jennifer, shared with me that she said, "I don't know that anyone who is trying primarily to be famous has anything interesting to say."
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And I think part- and I think that's true. Like, I, I, I didn't wanna be f- I, I don't know that I'm famous, but I didn't wanna be a public person, um, because I'm too self-conscious for that really, to be honest with you. Like, um, and I'm pr- I'm a tough person, but I, I get my feelings hurt.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And so when people make fun of what I look like or what I say or if I use the wrong word or mispronounce something, um, like it can, it can take me down. Less than it used to be able to, less than it did I guess. But, um, so I didn't really want the public part. So when that first started happening after the TED Talk, I already had a team together 'cause I was- I wanted to get my, scale my work. I wanted to get to as many people as I could with my work. I just wanted to stand like down and push my work into the world.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And not be...
- 8:09 – 11:43
Chasing the extraordinary vs. embracing the ordinary
- BBDr. Brené Brown
There's a lot of people whose work is in the world, but they don't, we don't know who they are.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yep.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
But again, going back to your first question, I don't think it's my work. I think it's me as a vessel for the work-
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... that resonates with people because I think I am... It's like a terrible paradox. Um, it is a terrible paradox. I was just, I'm having a moment. Like, that it's my ordinariness that makes me relatable, and it's also my ordinariness that makes me where I take all the hits.
- TFTim Ferriss
Hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Do you know, do you know what I'm saying?
- TFTim Ferriss
I do, and I, I also think, uh, I mean, I'm not gonna... I, I, I would over, over drinks maybe debate the ordinariness, but I, I do understand what you're saying and s- and I think that in your displaying of your fully imperfect self, which we all are, right? In that ordinariness, doing what you do and putting your work into the world as you have is extraordinary. And so I think that may be a piece of why people connect and find it so inspiring, right? As opposed to seeing like a LeBron James-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah
- TFTim Ferriss
... or whoever it is and going, "Well, that's, that guy-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah
- TFTim Ferriss
... is a mutant."
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
There is, that, that is a separate planet. There's no, there's no room for me to aspire to emulate that because it's so out of reach. Does that make, does that make sense? Where-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
It, it totally, it totally makes sense
- TFTim Ferriss
... whereas when you are very vulnerable and discuss the struggle, people go, "Oh, shit. That's how I feel." I didn't know people who do things like put work into the world in a TED Talk and this, that, and five bestselling books and so on could also feel that way and do-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Oh, yeah
- TFTim Ferriss
... the work that they do.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah. Uh, so yes, I definitely, I definitely feel that way. I mean, I think, and I think the people who have followed my work for a long time were kind of just growing up together and learning together. I mean, when I started, I didn't understand that I could be brave and afraid at the same time, and now I kinda live in that. I'm like, I'm, I feel brave right now 'cause I'm with you here doing this, but I'm also afraid. And I'm like, I'm literally thinking how much longer can I hold in my stomach and talk to him? And at some point w- I'm just gonna have to like breathe [laughs] . Like these are the things I think about, you know?
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And then I'm like, I shouldn't have worn the clingy like, uh, Rolling Stones shirt.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
I should've worn something like puffier so I could breathe. Like, like I'm just a normal person. But, but yeah, I'm just a normal... I am a really, I think we're all kind of ordinary people. I get to do extraordinary things, but I think we're all ordinary people. But I think sometimes this world is tough because we shame and diminish ordinary.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Ordinary lives are small lives.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
You know, ordinary moments are, you know, we chase extraordinary moments instead of like being grateful for ordinary moments until, until hard shit happens.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And then in the face of really hard stuff, illness, death, loss, the only thing we're begging for is a normal moment. Like, oh, my God, can I please have that ordinary moment back?
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- 11:43 – 14:58
Brené’s confronting photo session
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And I'll, I'll tell you a true story. I'm, I'm, I'm debating right now whether I should tell it or not 'cause it's so fresh, but I just had to do a photo shoot, um, for the podcast, like the image for Apple and everyone to use. And I was, the photographer, uh, was great, um, Randolph Ford, and it, it was, it was fine. It was at the Hotel St. Cecilia here in Austin, which was a really fun place to do it.
- TFTim Ferriss
It's a great place.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
So ch- ch- ch- ch- ch- ch- ch-, and I'm like uncomfortably like- You know, doing that, like, how m- how much, how much is too toothy, you know, that whole thing. And they said, "Well, come and look in the monitor. They're great." And then I stepped around to look at the monitor, and it was such s- shock to me because this was the thing playing in my mind. Like, I'm 54. I know who I am. I really like who I am. But then I'm looking in this monitor and I'm like, "Oh my God," because my training for 54 years has been, "Why are you taking pictures and having all these fancy people here when you're not perfect looking?" Like, this is, this is the realm of perfect pe- like, models do this and st- you know, like, but to see on these big screens with all these professional people against a white back- backdrop, like, me, I'm like, "Oh my God, this is, this is not what we normally see in a photo shoot behind the scenes," right?
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And it was just this moment that, like, it was such a metaphor for life. It's like I earned every single one of these effing wrinkles and stretch marks.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Like, and this is the body, you know, that raised my kids and, you know, like... But that ordinary-ness can almost be, for those of us who haven't found a way to love it in ourselves, repulsive.
- TFTim Ferriss
Hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
You know? Like-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, the realness
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... the realness.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Like, this is me. And so, like, when they were d- when they were doing the photos, like getting, you know, Photoshopping the photos, I was like, "You know, make sure that you make, that I look my age because I don't like that, like, shock and awe when I show up some place [laughs] and they're like, 'Damn, was that an old photo?'" You know, like, um-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
It's true, but it's like-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. Yeah. [laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... but really grappling with... And I'm just gonna say these things out loud.
- TFTim Ferriss
Hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Do you know where, like, because... And maybe that's why people are like, "Oh, thank God someone's saying them out loud"-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, right
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... because they're normally relegated to our secret shame lives.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
You know? And we all-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... have them.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. Oh, for sure.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Right?
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you are, it's, uh, odd to put it this way, but showcasing that, right? I mean, it's, I think it's, I think it's a, it provides a sigh of relief to a lot of people who feel like they have to keep all those things relegated or to d- or, or feel like they have to divorce those parts of themselves in, in some way.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yes. Yeah. And I think it's, I think it's, there is a divorcing, there's an orphaning even, I would say, that, you know, of these parts of ourselves, and it's not like... You know, it's weird too because people always say...
- 14:58 – 29:22
Self-acceptance vs. complacency
- BBDr. Brené Brown
This is an interesting question. I should ask you this question.
- TFTim Ferriss
Fire away.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
People always say, "Where's the line between embracing imperfection and vulnerability and kind of our humanity and striving for excellence?"
- TFTim Ferriss
Hmm. Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Do you know what I mean? And-
- TFTim Ferriss
Absolutely
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... and I'm a striver. Like, I'm a, like-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... you know, like we're serious about-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... our brand and my work and attributions, and I work out all the time and, you know, you asked me to [laughs] before we started, we were checking, like, "What'd you have for breakfast?" And I'm like, "I am intermittent fasting." [laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
And I'm like, "Damn it. We just need 10 seconds of audio. What are you fantasizing about eating for lunch?"
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
And, uh, so on.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Keto bar.
- TFTim Ferriss
Keto bar. Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Um, so it's not like, you know, it's not like embracing your imperfection is giving up.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
But what do you, how do you answer that question? If I said, "Tim"-
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... "where's the line between being our best selves or striving for excellence and embracing who we are?"
- TFTim Ferriss
Funny you should ask-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
... because we're recording this in January 2020, and I thought a lot about this on New Year's Eve and in the few days after the passing of the new year when, uh, I was going through notes and photographs and everything from the past year, and I'm actually still doing that review. I mean, we're well through the midpoint of January and I'm still doing my last year review. And one of the conversations with my girlfriend, with some of my best friends, was this topic exactly. And I can tell you where I landed, because I, I wanted to try to get the right phrasing for me of the question. So I talked about the line, right? Like, a- and there were a number of different versions of the question. One was how can you be self-accepting without becoming complacent, right?
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Oh, God. That's great.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
That's it.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right? Like, that was one, right?
- BBDr. Brené Brown
That's great.
- TFTim Ferriss
That was one. And then-
- 29:22 – 32:05
Worries about losing my audience
- TFTim Ferriss
I know this is, this is getting out there a bit, but this, this is, this is the type of stuff that... And sometimes I worry that I lose, that I've lost my audience. Can I make a confession?
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
Because for a long time, I was thinking about writing a blog post about this, but for a very long time, if you look at all the books that I've written, it's, like, book on entrepreneurship, book on physical performance, book on cognitive performance and learning, The 4-Hour Chef, et cetera, et cetera, it's mostly developmental. It's about improving performance in one or more areas. And now what I've spent more and more time on, like we're spending time on it right now, is the inner game.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
For sure.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right? And the importance of developing a keen level of self-awareness so that you can examine the contents of your, this is gonna get super woo-woo for a second, or it's gonna sound, but the, the contents of your consciousness, right? Like, wherever you go, you're carrying your mind with you, and so to develop a familiarity with that I think is the, the, the crux ... skill that underlies everything else. And you and I both know plenty of-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
For sure
- TFTim Ferriss
... achievers who are miserable, who are-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
For sure
- TFTim Ferriss
... high-performing, well-known people who are utterly miserable. And to me, the q- the question of why is that, how can that be the case, is the question that I'm ex- extremely interested in these days. And, um, but I worry that having built an audience who is largely, but not entirely, kinda go, go, go, rah, rah, rah, win, win, win, um, there's nothing wrong with that, but people who are trying to develop skills and then d- competitive advantages and so on, that, uh, that I may lose a large por- portion of those people in shifting into talking about more of these things. We'll see where it goes, but that's something that has occurred to me, and I think I'm willing to make that trade. I think I'm willing to, to take that, if that's a cost of, of doing business. I don't know.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
So a couple things. One, the go, go, go audience that you've built, you... This may scare them, but, I mean, as someone who works with elite athletes and professional folks and CEOs and those things, what I can tell you is this is the hardest challenge you've issued.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Like, and it's not about the conceptual complexity of what we're talking about. It's about unlocking performance is one thing.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Unlocking people-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... way harder.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Way scarier. And unlocking ourselves and creating self-awareness, um, to me it w- to me, you would be remiss not to go here.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Because,
- 32:05 – 34:36
Narcissism
- BBDr. Brené Brown
you know, I, I don't know. I think, like something you said when you were talking about we all know a lot of narcissists and they love themselves, but that's actually not true.
- TFTim Ferriss
Hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Do you know that narcissism is the most shame-based of all the personality disorders?
- TFTim Ferriss
Hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Narcissism is not about self-love at all. It's about grandiosity driven by high performance and self-hatred. It's, you know, I define it as the shame-based fear of being ordinary. And so you have, to me, you have this audience that, and I'm one of them, I mean, like, and I'm probably an outlier, I guess, in your... It's like me being a Rush fan. Like-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Of course, there's always outliers, but.
- TFTim Ferriss
Well, yeah, the audience is, like, 40, 40 to 50% female, but I appreciate-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Is it?
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. Yeah, it is.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah?
- TFTim Ferriss
It's, it's, it's, uh, shifted a lot in the last handful of years.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah. But I think, you know, when I get invited in by a Fortune 50 CEO and s- you know, and he or she says, "Look, we need help. We need help with the team. We need..." They're not asking me to help with time productivity.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
They're not helping me to set up a Scrum or Agile process for software development. They're saying, you know, "We're at each other's throats. We hate each other." It's a shame-based finger-pointing... Like, it's all about self-awareness and changing those behaviors. And to me, you know, to me, the hard thing about this, this area and your work is a lot of what I've learned from you that has changed my life has been not only effectiveness-based, but efficiency-based.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And so where you can lose people with this conversation is this is not an efficient process.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, right.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Do you know what I mean?
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
There's no, I don't think there's a four-hour self-awareness.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
It's like-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, I have no plans to write that one.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah, but, I mean, but I-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
But people would love it if you could-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... if you could unlock that fast. But to me, this is the capstone conversation for you.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- 34:36 – 44:17
Shedding our pathological armor for our superpower
- BBDr. Brené Brown
the thing about these conversations that you and I end up having every time we sit down, or this is the second time, but both times we've sat down, is what, what differentiates us as a social species is the need to be seen and known and loved, and the need to see and know and love others. And no one rides for free.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Like, we all come into this adulthood with hard stuff.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And what I would say is true about complacency, and 95% of what I see that people call pathology, is it's armor.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
It's not, it's armor. It's how, it's behaviors and ways of thinking that I've developed to protect myself from being hurt.
- TFTim Ferriss
So I've, I have a question-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Okay
- TFTim Ferriss
... for you about that. And I'm just gonna reach in and this... There we go. All right. So, eh, you're good. You're good. So my question related to armor is, um, I'll get to through a segue, which is a quote that I want to say Tara Brach, the well-known meditation teacher, also writer, Radical Acceptance is a fantastic book, shared with me, which I'm gonna paraphrase, and it's along the lines of, you know, "A great sage once said there's only one real question that matters, and that is what are you unwilling to feel?" I've thought about that a lot, and not to say I have any concise answers to that, but I think it's, I think it's, I, I think it's a, an anecdote really worth meditating on, and I've thought about it. What do you say to the people you meet who are on the third marriage, their kids don't talk to them, and there are certain things that they have convinced themselves subconsciously or otherwise, maybe through an abusive upbringing or trauma, whatever it might be, that it is unsafe to feel certain things. And you come in, they've asked for help, but they do not want to open Pandora's box, right? They do not want someone to drag them into the deep waters of emotions that they've kept under lock and key for so long. How do you help someone like that? What do you suggest to them? Because it does get messy, right? It's gonna get messy before it gets clean, right? [laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
At least in my experience. It's like you... Oh, you're gonna do spring cleaning? Guess what? You gotta take all the things that are up on the, up on the shelves, all the things in the drawers, all the things that are hanging, uh, on coat hangers, and you're gonna put them in the middle of the room, and it's gonna be a mess. It's gonna be a fucking mess.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
And-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And you're gonna be pissed that you did it halfway through
- TFTim Ferriss
... and that is, and that is... But you can't really get past go without that type of step. So for someone who's listening to this and says, "You know what? I buy it. Like, I get it, and yet what do I do? Because I've been... I've had on this armor for so long."
- BBDr. Brené Brown
So I would say a couple of things. I mean, the first thing I always feel like is really important to say is that I'm a researcher, and so I'm not a therapist. That would be... differentiate me with Esther. Like, I don't see clients. If I go in and I'm working with CEOs, and this question comes up all the time, what I would say to people is, "Pandora's box is closed right now, but are you under the impression that you're living outside of the box or in the box?" Like-
- TFTim Ferriss
That's like... Yeah, I like that.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
You know what I mean? Like, you don't wanna open Pandora's box because that's strange to me, 'cause you're living inside Pandora's box, and what I feel like you've asked me to come here to open it up. Like, we're not gonna do this process without walking through some deep shit. There's gonna be deep, swift water. And if the water's super deep and swift, you need to go through that with a therapist and get that, that, that settled before we work in the organizational way. But what I would say to people, what I always say is, is the same for me and I'm sure the same for you, that we all grew up and experienced at vary de- varying degrees trauma, disappointment, hell, you know, hard stuff. We armored up and at some point, that armor no longer serves us. And so what I think I would say to that person is, "How is not talking about this serving you?"
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Like, I've been sober for 23 years, so someone in AA would be like, "How's that shit working for you?"
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
You know? Like, but I probably would put a softer spin on it than that.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right. [laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Um, over black coffee and a cigarette. But, you know.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
But I would say that it's not serving anymore.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And now the weight of the armor is too heavy, and it's not protecting you. It's keeping you from being seen and known by others.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- 44:17 – 46:22
The control self-awareness brings
- TFTim Ferriss
And, you know, what you were saying about Pandora's box and the question, which I liked, of, uh, do you think you're living outside of Pandora's box or are you just locked inside Pandora's box, uh, is, is a really insightful question, and also reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend of mine who's had a very, who had a very, very tough time, multiple divorces. Uh, fortunately, on good terms with his kids, but a lot of interpersonal strife. And he said what no doubt you've heard a lot, which is like, "Yeah, I'm just not sure I wanna go there. I'm not sure I'm ready to sort of open that. I'm not sure I'm ready to deal with it." And what oc- what occurred to me as I was listening, because I've experienced this for a long time, is, "Oh, you're dealing with it."
- BBDr. Brené Brown
[laughs] I was gonna say, yeah, yeah-
- TFTim Ferriss
Whether-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
You're dealing with it, yeah
- TFTim Ferriss
... your choice is, do you wanna deal with it head-on in the sunlight, or do you wanna have, have it come oozing out of the corners in the darkness, where you can't contend with it in a direct or systematic way? So you're dealing with it no matter what. The question is, how are you dealing with it? And-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
A great Jungian saying, "Keep your shadows in front of you. They can only take you down from behind."
- TFTim Ferriss
Oh, I like that. I like that. Um-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah, you're dealing with it. Like, like, here's the thing. Emotion and cognition, undefined and unexplored, drive every decision you make.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
I mean, you either develop self-awareness or these things control you.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Like, I mean, it's... But it's really, I have to say that it can, as someone who chooses affect or affect words carefully, it can be terrifying for people.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
But rarely does anyone around them who knows them, like you with your friend, say, "Oh my God, I'm shocked to hear this," when the reveal comes out.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
You're like, your whole life has been defined by this.
- 46:22 – 48:55
Accelerated self-awareness
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, and I would, I would also like to say, and this is, this has just been my experience and my experience observing a, a pretty decent sized group of close friends who have had this realization in the last, say, 10 years, that the process of becoming curious about your subconscious programming and the old scripts and the armor can feel messy, and it probably will be messy, and it'll feel terrifying. But, uh, not all changes need to take 20 or 30 years. Like, some changes can, in, in my personal experience at least, you know, I had some terrible things happen to me as a kid, and, uh, in the last, say, five years with the right tools and the right prompts and the right books and the right accountability partners, like my girlfriend, who's a very well-developed empath and a very clean fighter, which is really important-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Huge
- TFTim Ferriss
... huge. S- and one thing that she does really well that has been instrumental for me, she's been the clearest mirror maybe, uh, I've ever had, in the sense that I have my stuff. She has her stuff. I have my scripts and my sensitivities, many of which are out of date, and we set time to do what we call batching. So rather than having, uh, lots of interspersed criticisms or constructive pieces of feedback that may not be taken the best way [laughs] by, by me, especially at 3:00 PM on a weekday, we'll set time aside to sit down, and we will take turns, and this is a format, it may not be the best format, but it's something we came up with that works for us, where we'll tell the other person what they're doing well, like what they're really doing well, what we think we are doing well, and then we'll ask for what we would like more of. And in that format, you can start to spot patterns, right? And so if you do that once a week or every two weeks, certain things come up, and I'm like, "Oh, wow, the first time you said that, I thought it was just an exception, but now I realize that is a pattern that I have," right? When X, Y, and Z happens, I go, "Uh-uh," like, "Let's talk about it later. Don't wanna deal with it now," and I sort of shove off certain types of topics or questions. And then you can begi- you can begin to experiment with working on alternatives. And
- 48:55 – 54:02
Marriage hacks
- TFTim Ferriss
the reason I'm saying all this is just because I don't, I don't want people to feel like the curiosity, if you're willing to take that first step, about your patterns, your programming, these out-of-date strategies and armor, does not necessarily lead to you trying to run an ultramarathon with a blindfold on. Like, there are, there are actually tools and resources and books and methods that can be really, really, really helpful in short order.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Y- y- and, and you'll be surprised. I mean, it's really like, it's like putting off a mammogram or, you know, the prostate check or whatever it is-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... that you have to do. Putting it off, putting it off. All the shit you make up about it, all the scary stories. You collect as many horrible things as you can, and then you go and you're like, "Wow, the fear leading up to this-
- TFTim Ferriss
So much worse
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... was so much greater."
- TFTim Ferriss
So much worse.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
I mean, I'm not saying it's not gonna hurt. It's, it's gonna hurt, but I do think... I mean, the two hacks that we have, Steve and I have been together for 32 years. Dated off and on for seven years, then married for whatever the delta is there, 25 or whatever we're married now. Um, hardest thing I've ever done. Hands down-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... hardest thing I've ever done. Y'all hear me out there?
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Hardest thing.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Um, he and I both come from, our parents' marriages on both sides, divorced, remarried several times, shit shows. We had no idea what it was supposed to look like, right? We just were willing to keep showing up, and the conversations like you and your girlfriend have, we do that, too.
- TFTim Ferriss
Hm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
It's uncanny how similar it is.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, it is.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
It's amazing.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah, especially what we want more of, what's really working. I really appreciated this this week. Um, we try not to, if it, unless it needs to be done in real time, we'll usually wait until we're in a good place to do it, you know? And-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... and, and w- I, I don't know, I don't think that he saw dirty fighting, but all I saw was dirty fighting.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
I'm like-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... you know, shame, humiliation, put downs, you know, stuff that leaves marks.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Stuff that you can't ab- and I, and I can default there when I'm in, like, a powerless corner. I can come out, like, mean.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
I know it's hard to believe, but no, it's really not. I know. [laughs]
- 54:02 – 55:03
Family decision-making at Brené’s house
- TFTim Ferriss
How do you weigh, if you do at all, the, the voting system, so to speak, right? So if you all come to the table, does everyone have equal v- vote in the decision-making process-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
No
- TFTim Ferriss
... with respect? No.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
No. This is a dictatorship.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah, like, yeah. I fix my mouth. Oh, no-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah [laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... yeah, no. Like, we don't even bullshit around that.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
It's like when my kids, like, ooh, if I say, like, "Oh, shit," m- my, my kids are like, "Ooh, you can't say that." I'm like, "I can say anything I want."
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
"You can't say that, and when you're old enough, you can do whatever you want."
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs] When you get your cursing license.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah, when you, yeah, you, but right now-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... I c- I can totally do that.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Um, watch me.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah [laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Um, but it's a, so we have very, we talk to our kids about everything. We're super open. Steve and I both have veto power, and we rarely use it. I bet I've, I bet I've pulled out my veto card once in the last five years.
- TFTim Ferriss
Veto meaning kid says, "I wanna do X," and you say, "Can't do it."
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Or Steve.
- TFTim Ferriss
Or Steve.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
I'm like, "I, I have to veto that. I cannot do that."
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And then we really respect the veto 'cause we don't overuse
- 55:03 – 59:09
Brené’s approach to parenting
- BBDr. Brené Brown
it. So our, our thing with our kids, this is my theory on parenting. My, my theory on parenting is the best we can do is a loving course from compliance to commitment, that your kids need to do what you're asking them to do out of compliance. So don't run into the street, don't do this, that's, that's, you know, you're not allowed to watch that kind of TV, you're not allowed to play that kind of video game. You need to comply, otherwise there- there's some natural consequences. At some point, I've, I've got a 14-year-old now, he, he's at other people's house doing video.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And so if all I teach him is compliance and don't give him the why about why you can't do that, if I don't say yes every time I can and explain the nos, then when he's there... And I can tell you that, like, we got a call from a parent maybe a month ago and said the boys were having a sleepover, they wanted to watch, I don't know, some R-rated violent thing, and Charlie said, "Can we watch something else? You know, my parents are not cool with this."
- TFTim Ferriss
Hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And he could, he didn't have to do that.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
But he's moved to a commitment to our family values because we say yes every time we can. We don't do any of that stuff that my parents did because I said no. We explain. So in the voting process we'll sit down and say, "Here's the fall semester." Charlie's like, "I've got guitar, I've got, you know, this, I've got this, and I've got this, and I'd really love to do this." And Steve's got, "Here's what my fall looks like." You know, we still keep time in semesters. "Here's what my time looks like. We're gonna be able to do two curriculars. You can choose."
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Why not? A, a lot of my friends are doing that, so I totally understand. Different families have different ways of operating. And it was like my daughter when she went to high school. She's a junior now in college, but we sat down with her and said, "The number of AP courses that you'll take will be limited by your time. You won't go to bed past 10. You will not miss a single dance. You will do something every weekend with friends. We will not participate in the race to nowhere. Like, you don't need to graduate with 40..." And she's a super academic kid, and she's like, "What?" You know? And like, she's like, "But I need to take this and then I take this." I'm like, "It's not gonna work that way." And then when she got to college we were like, "We're not paying for it if you already know what you wanna be. You're 18."
- TFTim Ferriss
So what does that... Say more. I'd like to hear more on this. So does that mean that you wanted her to... Well, actually I'm not even gonna speculate. So could you elaborate on that?
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Take every class that's interesting to you.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Learn who you are. Because if I had a dollar for every interview I did with a late 20, early 30-year-old that got on the engineer, lawyer, doctor path, because that was the moving escalator for smart people, who was depressed, hated what they did, never even knew that you could be a shoe designer or a casting director or a microphone builder, if I had a dollar for every one of those, like-
- TFTim Ferriss
Set for life
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... set for life.
- TFTim Ferriss
Hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah. And I said, "You need to explore." But, you know, and she's like, "That's so cringy, Mom. That's so, so cringy. Like, everyone at freshman orientation knows exactly what they're gonna be, where they're gonna go to grad school." I'm like, "That's great. That's not the way we work."
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And so, you know, I'll call her, I'm like, "What are you taking?" She's like, "Taking a class on black power movements, Germany in the 20th century, um, statistics and multivariate analysis," and I'm like, "Great." I mean, granted, that spells graduate school, but-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... she's like, "As it turns out, I don't think I wanna do this and I don't wanna do that." And I'm like, "Super valuable." And she's like, "No. Are you sure it's as valuable as knowing what you do wanna do?" I'm like, "Oh, yeah."
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Knowing what you don't wanna do, you get to save all the part in your 30s and 40s where you hate work, you're drinking heavily. You know, [laughs] like, you get to save a lot of that. Like, figure it out. Nothing's wasted.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- 59:09 – 59:55
Take service jobs when you’re young
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah, I graduated from college when I was 29.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
I was like, "Go see the world. Get a job. Wait tables." Everyone I know is better at, who's waited tables. A hu- better human being.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. Yeah, I think everybody, everyone should have to work at least one, preferably two service jobs.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yes.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. Yeah, you really learn a lot.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yes.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Y- yes. I mean, like, that and, like, that's what I always tell Ellen. You need to get one job where you're serving the public.
- TFTim Ferriss
Hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And you not to ever, do not ever date a guy who's a dick to a waiter.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
So I'm going to suggest, we could talk for hours-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
... and hours and hours, but because I know we have a finite amount of time today, that we, that we switch to the, the format-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
... that wa- was, uh, anticipated.
- 59:55 – 1:08:06
Five things Brené has changed her mind about
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yes.
- TFTim Ferriss
And I did this previously with, uh, my friend, Dr. Peter Attia, and it, it was, it was fun, so I wanna try it again, and it is talking about things you're excited about-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah
- TFTim Ferriss
... or thinking about, things you've changed your mind on, and then silly, absurd, stupid, anything that you love-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Okay
- TFTim Ferriss
... doing. And-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
I got my homework.
- TFTim Ferriss
Perfect.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
I'm so glad we're gonna do this-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yes
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... because I did, I prepped.
- TFTim Ferriss
I know. I know.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And you know I like my gold star.
- TFTim Ferriss
I, yes.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
I'm a self-aware person, but like-
- TFTim Ferriss
I've got my gold star
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... I still like my gold star. Okay.
- TFTim Ferriss
I got my gold stars in my wallet.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
And so why don't we start, and we'll, we'll go one from each-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Okay. Oh
- TFTim Ferriss
... bucket. Bucket.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Really?
- TFTim Ferriss
Is that, is that okay? Or we could do the other way. How would you like to do it?
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Oh, no, I wanna do it batched.
- TFTim Ferriss
You wanna batch it?
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
Okay, let's batch it.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Is that me, like, being, like, asserting myself into your process?
- TFTim Ferriss
I'm all for it.
- 1:08:06 – 1:13:09
Five absurd, stupid things Brené does
- BBDr. Brené Brown
okay, so five absurd, stupid, fun things I do. I wa- on movie night, I give myself a movie night 'cause I love movies.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, me too.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
I only watch movie trailers.
- TFTim Ferriss
Huh.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
Wild.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
I watch, like, 20 movie trailers. Um, don't-
- TFTim Ferriss
Do you do it on y-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... don't look judgy over there
- TFTim Ferriss
... do you do it on YouTube, or how do you find the trailers?
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Apple Trailers.
- TFTim Ferriss
Oh, wow.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah, I-
- TFTim Ferriss
Just-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah, and it's, like, the happiest place in, like, ever.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- BBDr. Brené Brown
It's my, it's my... It's, like, I probably... Imminent light.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Like, okay, so I watch movie trailers on movie night.
- TFTim Ferriss
Uh-huh.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
It's so... It's, you get the whole emotional rush-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... and narrative-
- TFTim Ferriss
Without the 90 minutes
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... with no commitment. Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Um, I, this is a stupid thing I do. I really am a bad trash talker and super competitive, so whether it's, like, ping pong or we play a lot of family Foursquare.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Um, card, I play a lot of cards. I'm, like, a shit talker.
- TFTim Ferriss
Wow.
- 1:13:09 – 1:18:37
Five things Brené is excited about
- TFTim Ferriss
excited about?
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Okay. Excited about two big things-
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... for 2020. One is that I am taking a visiting professorship at Texas McCombs at UT.
- TFTim Ferriss
Whoa.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
University of Texas Austin. Yeah, hook 'em.
- TFTim Ferriss
High five.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
That's amazing.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
So I'm gonna do, be there for a year, and I'm bringing Dare to Lead to UT Texas McCombs.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
And so we're gonna do our trainings out of the University of Texas, more research, develop some cloud-based tools for organizations to use.
- TFTim Ferriss
Nice.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
It's really exciting.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
Go UTX.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Go UTX and-
- TFTim Ferriss
That's awesome
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... UT.
- TFTim Ferriss
I know.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yes.
- TFTim Ferriss
Amazing.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Um, podcast.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
The new podcast is starting. I'm really excited.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Um-
- TFTim Ferriss
What is the name of your podcast?
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Unlocking Us.
- 1:18:37 – 1:19:16
Parting thoughts.
- TFTim Ferriss
well, I'm so happy that you're gonna be spending more time here in Austin.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yes.
- TFTim Ferriss
How exciting.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
And, uh, where can people-
- BBDr. Brené Brown
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
... learn all about your latest interests, including TikTok, your latest projects? Where can people best find you?
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Uh, brenebrown.com is the-
- TFTim Ferriss
All of the things
- BBDr. Brené Brown
... all of the things.
- TFTim Ferriss
BrenéBrown.com.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
So nice to see you again.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
It's so nice to see you, too. It's so fun.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. So, to be continued.
- BBDr. Brené Brown
Yeah. Uh, yeah. Oh, yes. To be continued.
- TFTim Ferriss
And, uh, for everybody who's watching or listening, you can find show notes, links to everything we've talked about, including the promised TikTok videos [laughs] in the show notes at tim.blog/podcast.
Episode duration: 1:19:37
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Transcript of episode Wh5SUF0gPWQ
