Champion of "Alone" on The Art of Survival — Jordan Jonas

1. 0:00 – 0:30

   Preview

   1. JJJordan Jonas0:00

      And I came out, and it was, like, the day. I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna render that fat." And then I started looking around, like, "What are these tracks?" And then you slowly start to have something dawn on you [laughs] like, those are wolverine tracks. I mean, they're not huge, like 40 pounds or whatever, but they fight off wolf packs, they take down full-grown moose. And that was my first time really dealing with one like that, and he kept surprising me with how bold he was. You know, kind of figure, "Okay, that'll take care of it." And then all of a sudden, whoa, right in front of me. You know, he'd run by and grab a chunk of meat and run off. You go, "No way."

2. 0:30 – 1:40

   Who is Jordan Jonas?

   1. TFTim Ferriss0:30

      Jordan, great to see you, man.

   2. JJJordan Jonas0:31

      Yeah. Good to see you, Tim. Good to see you.

   3. TFTim Ferriss0:33

      And we've-

   4. JJJordan Jonas0:33

      It's fun to be here

   5. TFTim Ferriss0:33

      ... we've upgraded our interaction to in-person.

   6. JJJordan Jonas0:36

      Yeah. [laughs]

   7. TFTim Ferriss0:36

      Because for those who are listening, we had some audio glitches, some technological woes, and we just decided to do it in person.

   8. JJJordan Jonas0:44

      Yeah.

   9. TFTim Ferriss0:44

      So here we are.

   10. JJJordan Jonas0:44

       So it's fun.

   11. TFTim Ferriss0:45

       And I have twice the number of pooches, meaning two versus one, since you last saw me. Got a, got a stray adopted a few days ago. We're also drinking what people might think are ridiculously heavy pours of whiskey, but this is not whiskey. This is Lake Missoula Tea Company, Lake Missoula Breakfast. It is delicious. Just a bit of caffeine, a little bit of a topper, let's call it, from-

   12. JJJordan Jonas1:10

       Yeah, we just both arrived at some city we're not from, so [laughs]

   13. TFTim Ferriss1:14

       ... at high altitude.

   14. JJJordan Jonas1:15

       Yeah. [laughs]

   15. TFTim Ferriss1:16

       And, uh, we're just getting back into the groove of the conversation. So we are gonna get to Russia, but first I wanted you to, and these tie together I suppose, explain what we have here on the table besides the tea, because you made the joke, you know, if the interview's not going very well-

   16. JJJordan Jonas1:35

       [laughs]

   17. TFTim Ferriss1:35

       ... might as well have this.

   18. JJJordan Jonas1:36

       You see I'm pointed the handle this way. [laughs]

   19. TFTim Ferriss1:37

       Yeah, the handle is pointed towards you.

3. 1:40 – 5:30

   The Siberian axe gospel: Single bevel, wide eye, and why your Lowe's hatchet is basically a butter knife.

   1. TFTim Ferriss1:40

      What are we looking at?

   2. JJJordan Jonas1:42

      What we're looking at is an axe. It's one I've kind of designed specifically using the knowledge and experience I have had in Siberia, in particular, with the native folks and stuff. So it's got some b- unique features, some that I've really grown to love. So in the forest, first off, just to set the foundation, the one tool you need is an axe to give yourself a chance at survival, 'cause-

   3. TFTim Ferriss2:10

      More than a knife

   4. JJJordan Jonas2:10

      ... more than a knife.

   5. TFTim Ferriss2:11

      More than anything.

   6. JJJordan Jonas2:12

      It can do all the things you can do with a knife. You know, you could get a fire, you could build some traps, you can get through the ice. You can... You know, it just kinda gives you the ability to do everything, maybe not as well as you want, but as the natives would say, the one tool you need is an axe, and I concur. So the problem, though, is that a lot of people in the States don't know what a good axe is.

   7. TFTim Ferriss2:32

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JJJordan Jonas2:32

      And so you'll go buy one at Lowe's and go home [laughs] and it just doesn't do the job you need. So I d- designed one that has all the features I like. It's kind of a Siberian axe head shape-

   9. TFTim Ferriss2:45

      Mm-hmm

   10. JJJordan Jonas2:45

       ... with some of the Evenki modifications, and then-

   11. TFTim Ferriss2:48

       The Evenki being the native people.

   12. JJJordan Jonas2:49

       The Evenki are the native nomadic folks that I lived with. They live in the woods all the time, so they kinda know what they like. So some of the features of this axe in particular, most, most interestingly, is it's sharpened from one side.

   13. TFTim Ferriss3:02

       It's like a single bevel.

   14. JJJordan Jonas3:03

       It's a single bevel grind, which means you have to have a right or a left-handed axe-

   15. TFTim Ferriss3:08

       Right

   16. JJJordan Jonas3:08

       ... based on what you are. But what that allows you to do is when you're in the woods, very often you'll be carving things, you know, whether you're building a sleigh or building a trap or building whatever it might be, and it really helps it work as a planer and really helps it do accurate work that way. It also, on most trees that you chop down in the woods, they're quite narrow. You're rarely chopping down a giant, you know, cedar tree. [laughs]

   17. TFTim Ferriss3:33

       Yeah.

   18. JJJordan Jonas3:33

       You're, you're gonna be chopping down sh- things about the size of your arm, and a couple swings with this bevel design and you can slice right through them. So it's a really efficient way of-

   19. TFTim Ferriss3:44

       Assuming it is matched to your dominant hand, right? So that-

   20. JJJordan Jonas3:47

       Exactly, yeah

   21. TFTim Ferriss3:47

       ... so that it's sticking instead of deflecting.

   22. JJJordan Jonas3:49

       Exactly. Exactly.

   23. TFTim Ferriss3:50

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JJJordan Jonas3:51

       So if you picture a bevel and h- hitting against a tree, if it's ground off on that side, there's a bit of a deflection, and by grinding it from the opposite side, when it hits that tree, it just bites right in.

   25. TFTim Ferriss4:03

       I guess you have some experience with [laughs] deflection.

   26. JJJordan Jonas4:05

       Deflection. Oh, yes, we do.

   27. TFTim Ferriss4:07

       [laughs]

   28. JJJordan Jonas4:07

       And, uh, and yeah, just to finalize a few last points, you'll notice on a lot of American axes, they have a s- narrow eye, and that means that-

   29. TFTim Ferriss4:15

       And c- can you describe the eye? The eye is basically if you had the axe, what would you call the axe?

   30. JJJordan Jonas4:19

       Blade, I guess.
4. 5:30 – 6:23

   A Montana downpour baptism.

   1. TFTim Ferriss5:30

      I recall seeing you when we first went out, our first day in the wilderness in Montana, and just a quick sidebar, one of my friends, because the forecast-

   2. JJJordan Jonas5:41

      [laughs]

   3. TFTim Ferriss5:41

      ... looked fantastic. It was a bluebird day.

   4. JJJordan Jonas5:44

      Oh, yeah. [laughs]

   5. TFTim Ferriss5:44

      And he's like, it was his first time going out on a real camping trip, and he's like, "I think I might just leave the rain gear at the, at the rental spot."

   6. JJJordan Jonas5:52

      [laughs]

   7. TFTim Ferriss5:52

      And I was like, "That is the last thing. You would just put at the bottom."

   8. JJJordan Jonas5:55

      [laughs]

   9. TFTim Ferriss5:55

      You know?

   10. JJJordan Jonas5:56

       Chest-deep space.

   11. TFTim Ferriss5:57

       Like, just stick it somewhere. And then it was torrential downpour for the ma-

   12. JJJordan Jonas6:02

       We got a legit downpour. Yeah, it was a-

   13. TFTim Ferriss6:04

       Yeah, we got hammered.

   14. JJJordan Jonas6:05

       Mm-hmm.

   15. TFTim Ferriss6:05

       And even though it wasn't particularly cold- You end up feeling cold very, very quickly.

   16. JJJordan Jonas6:11

       Mm-hmm.

   17. TFTim Ferriss6:12

       And when we arrived at, I suppose, the first camp, which maybe was sort of a premature stop because of the cold and the rain-

   18. JJJordan Jonas6:21

       Yeah, it was pretty chilly and-

   19. TFTim Ferriss6:22

       And

5. 6:23 – 10:50

   Feather sticks and ferro rods.

   1. TFTim Ferriss6:23

      it was incredible how quickly, number one, my friend Mike and I both were having trouble zippering our jackets-

   2. JJJordan Jonas6:30

      Mm-hmm

   3. TFTim Ferriss6:30

      ... even though it was not even winter.

   4. JJJordan Jonas6:32

      Mm-hmm.

   5. TFTim Ferriss6:32

      And then watching you use the axe to... Maybe you could describe this, but when you take a larger stick, people think of fire-building and they think of perhaps having, like, the fat wood, and then you have some type of cotton ball or tinder, right?

   6. JJJordan Jonas6:51

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   7. TFTim Ferriss6:51

      But when you're out in the woods, you don't necessarily... Sure, you could pack these things, but if you're improvising, what blew me away was how you used the axe to create feathers.

   8. JJJordan Jonas7:01

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   9. TFTim Ferriss7:02

      Can you explain what that is?

   10. JJJordan Jonas7:03

       You want a really sharp axe once you get control of it. You know, they're dangerous. We'll go to the deflection stories in a bit. But once you're a master of the axe, you can go in a downpour, torrential downpour, chop down a dead standing tree, because it... You know, you might see dead trees on the ground, but it's amazing, particularly in the spring when they've spent a whole winter absorbing moisture, it's amazing how wet they will be. And so dead standing, find something, chop it down, and then split it. Chop a smaller piece out of the middle, and then split that open. And once you got it split open, you're to that dry wood, and it never gets wet because it was standing. And so you then split that piece open a couple times. You get a nice edge on it. And then with the axe, you can, you can just run your axe down that wood with the right amount of control and practice and make some really fine curls that'll catch a spark. So you don't even need a lighter. You don't need anything like that.

   11. TFTim Ferriss7:58

       And what was also counterintuitive to me is you don't even have to take those off of-

   12. JJJordan Jonas8:04

       Mm. Mm-hmm

   13. TFTim Ferriss8:04

       ... the split piece-

   14. JJJordan Jonas8:06

       Yeah, it's actually-

   15. TFTim Ferriss8:06

       ... of this internal wood

   16. JJJordan Jonas8:07

       ... easier if you don't.

   17. TFTim Ferriss8:08

       If you don't.

   18. JJJordan Jonas8:08

       It's easier if you leave a big bundle of this curled wood.

   19. TFTim Ferriss8:10

       So imagine-

   20. JJJordan Jonas8:11

       Mm-hmm

   21. TFTim Ferriss8:11

       ... imagine, guys, if you would, you have... Let's just for simplicity's sake, right, say that you have a fully intact log of wood that's about the thickness of your arm. You then... And there are very particular ways to do this-

   22. JJJordan Jonas8:26

       Mm-hmm

   23. TFTim Ferriss8:27

       ... safely, right? [laughs]

   24. JJJordan Jonas8:27

       Yeah.

   25. TFTim Ferriss8:27

       Like, like leaning it against a larger-

   26. JJJordan Jonas8:30

       Yep

   27. TFTim Ferriss8:30

       ... [laughs] fallen tree.

   28. JJJordan Jonas8:31

       Yeah, yeah.

   29. TFTim Ferriss8:31

       [laughs] Uh-

   30. JJJordan Jonas8:33

       There's a lot of nuance here
6. 10:50 – 15:45

   A gnarly axe-ident, a quest for an abandoned boot, and frontier convalescence in a tipi.

   1. JJJordan Jonas10:50

      up on.

   2. TFTim Ferriss10:50

      Yeah. So we'll put up some videos of the axe and maybe have you demo some of the-

   3. JJJordan Jonas10:54

      Mm-hmm

   4. TFTim Ferriss10:54

      ... more non-obvious ways-

   5. JJJordan Jonas10:56

      Yeah, yeah

   6. TFTim Ferriss10:57

      ... of using it. Before we get to the rewind and looking at how on earth you ended up in Russia, let's, let's not let go of the loose end of the deflection story.

   7. JJJordan Jonas11:10

      Yeah. So with an axe-

   8. TFTim Ferriss11:11

      So, so what does it look like if you get overenthusiastic and you don't quite have the control yet?

   9. JJJordan Jonas11:16

      An axe has a learning curve, especially when you have a really well-made axe and you're swinging it hard to get the w- jobs you need done, done. When I did go to Russia, I was a little in over my head. Like, I had grown up on a farm and used an axe more than probably your typical American, but not like they do over there by any means. And so-

   10. TFTim Ferriss11:37

       I mean, these axes are as sharp at... They're sharper than most kitchen knives you would find in an Airbnb.

   11. JJJordan Jonas11:44

       Mm-hmm.

   12. TFTim Ferriss11:44

       I mean, like, they're-

   13. JJJordan Jonas11:45

       Yeah

   14. TFTim Ferriss11:45

       ... very, very sharp.

   15. JJJordan Jonas11:46

       Yep. And so w- they just use them way more than I would, and I was trying to keep up. You know, I'm trying to be productive, and in doing so, I was in a hurry. So this is gonna take a slight bit of a backstory, but the natives over there will build these huge, you know, 30-kilometer circumference fences out of only logs interlocking. They have no nails, nothing up there, 'cause there are none around. And so there's a specific technique to doing that. Partly that involves chopping a tree down, and then you set- your foot on it, and then you split that tree- On that cut end, you know

   16. TFTim Ferriss12:18

       Mm-hmm

   17. JJJordan Jonas12:18

       ... so you're ma- taking a big swing and swinging right where your foot sort of is.

   18. TFTim Ferriss12:22

       [laughs]

   19. JJJordan Jonas12:23

       And that tree is not flat like it was cut with a saw. It's got an angle like it was cut with a axe, and so there's a real deflection possibility there if you don't have all the, if you don't have it down. And so I'm trying to keep a... Smack, hit in my boot. And, you know, we're in the middle of Siberia. I can't get another rubber boot. We're working in swamps. It was very disappointing. Went home, had a cut on my foot, you know, back to home, which is a tipi. Went, had a cut on my foot, kinda bandaged it up and tried to patch my boot as best I could. Go back out next day, same thing. And, and make a long story short, I chopped the heck out of my boots, and then [laughs] finally one of the native guys was like, "Hey, you know what, Jordan? I think, you know, five years ago, I left a boot upside down on a stump, like-

   20. TFTim Ferriss13:05

       [laughs]

   21. JJJordan Jonas13:05

       ... you know, five miles that way." And so we spent a whole day. We got our reindeer, packed 'em up, rode these reindeer up and over the mountain. Sure enough, there's a stump with a boot upside down on it. [laughs]

   22. TFTim Ferriss13:15

       [laughs]

   23. JJJordan Jonas13:16

       And these are natural rubber boots, and so I could like, it was smaller than my foot, but I could squeeze my foot in there, and I was like, "Great. This is awesome." Back at it, another day or two, and swing. I chopped it, and I was so frustrated. I mean, I, it was annoying that I cut my boot open. I got mad and I swung with one hand at the tree, and then here comes defle- you know, it deflects off and rips right into my knee.

   24. TFTim Ferriss13:40

       Oh.

   25. JJJordan Jonas13:40

       And I hammered my knee. I, in the long run, I went and got it checked out many months later, but it was, you know, I mostly severed the MCL, split the bone. It was a quite a gnarly injury, and I, I was stuck out there. I had to crawl back to the tipi. I knew I was kind of in shock, so I was like, "I gotta get back to the tipi before I feel this," which was a couple kilometers away. So I-

   26. TFTim Ferriss14:03

       [laughs]

   27. JJJordan Jonas14:03

       ... kinda just bailed out, told everybody, like, "Hey, I'm, I'm going back to the tipi."

   28. TFTim Ferriss14:06

       [laughs]

   29. JJJordan Jonas14:08

       And then I got there, and man, it was a lot of pain. I, I had had surgery on my other knee not long before, so that was my good leg I chopped. And then, and I was stuck in that tipi for several days. I couldn't even move. I had to like, even to poop, I had a plastic bag. I had to like go in that and then roll to the edge of the tipi and stuff it out. I couldn't even stand on either leg. It was pretty miserable, and they were out building that fence, so it was a few days later they f- they finally came back, and, and I was still recovering-

   30. TFTim Ferriss14:36

       So what-
7. 15:45 – 17:08

   First Russian word learned, courtesy of a Moscow airport officer with zero chill.

   1. TFTim Ferriss15:45

      So it sounds like you got close to quite a few of the locals.

   2. JJJordan Jonas15:50

      Oh, yeah.

   3. TFTim Ferriss15:51

      Can you describe, hopefully this is enough of a cue, because you told me about this moment. We're out in the woods, in the mountains, but it involves, we picked up a few Russian words on this trip. And I think one of them was durak, right?

   4. JJJordan Jonas16:08

      [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   5. TFTim Ferriss16:08

      So if that's enough of a cue in terms of warm welcome.

   6. JJJordan Jonas16:12

      Oh, yeah.

   7. TFTim Ferriss16:13

      What was your, your first arrival like?

   8. JJJordan Jonas16:15

      This is probably 2005 or '6, but I was heading over to Russia the first time and didn't know what to expect, but we land in the Moscow airport, and instead of having like a bus or something come up to our airplane, it was like a farm tractor, this blue farm tractor and a wooden trailer. [laughs] And I was like, "No way." Get off the plane, and, you know, we're climbing into this trailer. And so of course, I took a picture, and this, uh, officer standing over there, "Durak," which means, like, idiot.

   9. TFTim Ferriss16:43

      [laughs]

   10. JJJordan Jonas16:45

       That was the first greeting of Russia. [laughs] Came over to my phone, made me delete it. [laughs]

   11. TFTim Ferriss16:49

       [laughs]

   12. JJJordan Jonas16:50

       And welcome to Russia, and then, uh... So that was fitting.

   13. TFTim Ferriss16:54

       I guess it's-

   14. JJJordan Jonas16:54

       fitting start

   15. TFTim Ferriss16:55

       ... I guess it's not that different from [laughs] how you would probably get treated at JFK.

   16. JJJordan Jonas16:59

       Yeah, yeah. No. [laughs] You start taking pictures, fair enough. Fair enough.

   17. TFTim Ferriss17:03

       [laughs]

   18. JJJordan Jonas17:04

       Little bit of cultural ignorance.

   19. TFTim Ferriss17:07

       All right. So let's,

8. 17:08 – 25:24

   Jordan's youthful faith crisis and a Trans-Siberian prayer.

   1. TFTim Ferriss17:08

      let's go back then to the impetus, the catalyst. Just as a, a skeletal backstory that we're gonna dive into-

   2. JJJordan Jonas17:17

      Mm-hmm

   3. TFTim Ferriss17:17

      ... but where'd you grow up?

   4. JJJordan Jonas17:18

      I grew up in Idaho, nor- on a farm in North Idaho for the most part. And-

   5. TFTim Ferriss17:23

      So did you grow up learning Russian from family members, then studying-

   6. JJJordan Jonas17:28

      Yeah

   7. TFTim Ferriss17:28

      ... in school, and then going to Russia? What-

   8. JJJordan Jonas17:30

      No, I never thought particularly a lot about Russia, although I was really into history, and so I'd read about, a lot about World War II, Russian war memoirs, you know, all this. So I'd, I'd read and really was impacted by The Gulag Archipelago. So I had a familiarity with Russia, but it was never a destination [laughs] that I had thought about. Lived a fairly typical beginning to life. Got a job when I was 13, worked, worked, worked, and then when I was about 18, my brother invited me to ri- ride freight trains, you know?

   9. TFTim Ferriss18:00

      Okay.

   10. JJJordan Jonas18:01

       So that kinda sent me on a path.

   11. TFTim Ferriss18:02

       So we're gonna skip forward-

   12. JJJordan Jonas18:03

       Yep

   13. TFTim Ferriss18:04

       ... from there and come back-

   14. JJJordan Jonas18:05

       Mm-hmm

   15. TFTim Ferriss18:06

       ... to why-

   16. JJJordan Jonas18:06

       Let's do it

   17. TFTim Ferriss18:07

       ... Hobo Jordan. [laughs]

   18. JJJordan Jonas18:08

       [laughs] Yeah, exactly.

   19. TFTim Ferriss18:10

       So what on earth happened that led to actually getting on a plane?

   20. JJJordan Jonas18:17

       You know, I grew up in a Christian household, and I had seen the fruit of that path in my life. I'd seen it in people around me, my family history. You know, I really valued it, and it was really meaningful to me. But as I was, you know, a teenager and growing up, had a lot of questions that I hadn't had satisfactorily answered. And so I found myself, although I really valued Christianity and saw it as very good, I found myself in a place where I was struggling to connect with it on any level. And so I was in a fairly dark place as a young man there. And I remember at that time, I had read this particular verse, and it basically said, "He who follows the path of righteousness and is in the darkness, continue." And that struck me at the time, 'cause like, okay, there's people that try to do the right thing and are still in darkness and that, so that's okay. But it didn't answer a lot of the questions I had, and I didn't wanna bulldoze it all because I had seen that it was good, so, so, and I also knew I was young and ignorant.

   21. TFTim Ferriss19:23

       What do you mean by bulldoze it?

   22. JJJordan Jonas19:24

       Well, I didn't wanna take my faith and Christianity and everything that it meant and just-

   23. TFTim Ferriss19:29

       Discard it

   24. JJJordan Jonas19:29

       ... say this is... Yeah, I'm gonna discard it and go my own way as a-

   25. TFTim Ferriss19:32

       Mm-hmm

   26. JJJordan Jonas19:32

       ... 18-year-old.

   27. TFTim Ferriss19:33

       What types of questions did you have?

   28. JJJordan Jonas19:35

       Yeah, they were actually fairly simple, and, and this goes to the next answer, but I had... My two main questions were, there's one, like, surely the, your Earth is not 6,000 years old. [laughs]

   29. TFTim Ferriss19:46

       Yeah.

   30. JJJordan Jonas19:46

       And then two was, I just had a hard time matching up Old Testament ethics with Christ's message.
9. 25:24 – 27:38

   From building an orphanage to living with the Evenki.

   1. JJJordan Jonas25:24

      a good summary, yes.

   2. TFTim Ferriss25:24

      How did you go from orphanage to Evenki?

   3. JJJordan Jonas25:30

      I went over to help Justice Walker build this orphanage, super... And that was neat, but I, I, it was just me, and he needed a lot of groundwork laid and, you know, wells dug. But he eventually had a crew lined up that was gonna come over and actually frame the thing and put the thing up and do all that. So I was there kinda doing the groundwork. We dug a well and did all this stuff, but it was still pretty preliminary. And I was there for a few months, really enjoyed being in Russia, but I was struck by the fact that I r- actually really wanna live with Russians, you know? And-

   4. TFTim Ferriss26:08

      Mm-hmm

   5. JJJordan Jonas26:08

      ... and so I told that to Justice, and he was like, "Well, let's call the neighboring village." He called 'em up, and the guy was like, "Whoa, yeah, absolutely, send the American over. My wife's in the hospital, and I need someone to watch my kids." So-

   6. TFTim Ferriss26:21

      How long had you been there at that point?

   7. JJJordan Jonas26:23

      About three months, I would guess.

   8. TFTim Ferriss26:24

      How much Russian did you speak at that point?

   9. JJJordan Jonas26:27

      Very little. Very little. I was trying to pick it up, but that was part of the problem, is Justice was so much f- he was one of the most well-read people I've ever been with, so it was so fun to just talk to him and, and so-

   10. TFTim Ferriss26:38

       It's a lot easier than working on your ABCs. [laughs]

   11. JJJordan Jonas26:40

       Yeah, exactly. And so I was not doing it to, to the... And when you first go to a country, you're so struck by how much you can communicate through non-verbally, and then you all of a sudden hit a wall.

   12. TFTim Ferriss26:50

       [laughs]

   13. JJJordan Jonas26:50

       And you're [laughs] so you're like, "Okay." I wanted to get past that as fast as possible, so I went to that little village and was fully immersed in a Siberian village life right there. Yeah, that was pretty funny 'cause I hadn't dealt with kids before or anything like that. Yura had to go back to his lumber mill job, and so he was big Russian dude, you know, that big handshake, "Oh, so glad you're here," and showed me around, and, "Here's the kids," [laughs] five-year-old boy and a two-year-old girl, you know, introduce, have some tea. Then the next day, he's already off to work. He had pointed me where the grocery store is, and so I was in the deep end trying to take care of these two kids.

   14. TFTim Ferriss27:28

       [laughs]

   15. JJJordan Jonas27:28

       I'd never done that before. Grocery shop for 'em. I didn't even know the language. And that was my splash into Russia proper, I guess, in that regards.

10. 27:38 – 35:32

    Experiencing tug-of-war hospitality between ex-con Siberian families.

    1. TFTim Ferriss27:38

       Mm-hmm. And then how do you get into reindeer territory? [laughs]

    2. JJJordan Jonas27:41

       So these guys, Yura had been to prison before, and, and his-

    3. TFTim Ferriss27:46

       Who was that?

    4. JJJordan Jonas27:47

       Yura was the guy... Sorry, the Russian guy-

    5. TFTim Ferriss27:49

       The guy with the big hand

    6. JJJordan Jonas27:49

       ... I'd gone to live with. Yeah, the big Russian... [laughs] And he, uh, his neighbor was named, was Igor, and he had also been to prison, and these are all guys in Siberia with s- pretty storied pasts. They really enjoyed having me over there. For one, I was, like, really trying to just work hard, and it was so random for them to have an American that they, uh, [laughs] it was kind of tug-of-war me back between their two houses.

    7. TFTim Ferriss28:14

       Pet American.

    8. JJJordan Jonas28:15

       Yeah. [laughs]

    9. TFTim Ferriss28:17

       [laughs]

    10. JJJordan Jonas28:18

        And so it was, they both became like families to me. You know, they both had kids and both a lot of fun in different ways. But Igor, the second family there, had been in prison with a native fur trapper from the far north, and they were really close 'cause they'd, like, found God in prison together. And so he was always telling me, "You gotta go north and meet my fur trapping buddy." So after that year of living in Russia, right at the end of it, Yura, the trapper, came through town to sell furs, and we met, and he invited me up to live with him. So I was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna go home to America, renew my visa, get some, earn some money, and then I'll come back." And so I went back and headed straight north, more or less, and then I was in even more over my head. [laughs]

    11. TFTim Ferriss29:03

        So what was, what was the first day like when you land, first day, first week, when you land in the far north?

    12. JJJordan Jonas29:10

        Oh, it was very funny.

    13. TFTim Ferriss29:10

        And now this is in Siberia proper?

    14. JJJordan Jonas29:13

        Well, we'd been in Siberia the whole time, but it was just incrementally further north in kind of central Siberia.

    15. TFTim Ferriss29:20

        How cold does it get in the, the northernmost region?

    16. JJJordan Jonas29:22

        Well, in the far north, you know, where I would end up being with the nomads, it'd get to negative 58, negative 60s-

    17. TFTim Ferriss29:30

        [laughs]

    18. JJJordan Jonas29:30

        ... is, like, kind of the, [laughs] the cutoff. But-

    19. TFTim Ferriss29:32

        That's nippy

    20. JJJordan Jonas29:33

        ... no, first getting to the north, it's funny. Well, one thing I was struck by when I, honestly, when I got to Russia, was there's a lot of al- drinking.

    21. TFTim Ferriss29:40

        Yeah.

    22. JJJordan Jonas29:40

        And every bit I went further north, every time I would get used to it at one place. You know, I remember driving in a village, in the first village I was with Justice, and we're just cruising along on a cold winter day on, in the bus, and it swerves around this guy laying in the road. Uh, but we're out in the middle of nowhere. I was like, "Whoa, like, it's cold out."

    23. TFTim Ferriss30:00

        Yeah.

    24. JJJordan Jonas30:00

        You know, "We gotta stop." And the lady across from me, and I could, you know, make out with my bad Russian, she's like, "Ah, he's a drunk. He's dead." I was like, "Whoa." [laughs]

    25. TFTim Ferriss30:09

        Yeah.

    26. JJJordan Jonas30:09

        And stuff. And so it was kinda intense, but you kinda recalibrate at the new norm. Then when I went to the, the next northern village, re-struck me again. I was like, "Oh, there's chaos." And that first week was, was that 'cause I was with Yura, and he was showing me around, and we go to this first house, and- I mean, I think even, it might have been even on the way from the airport, but pick up some random drunk guy, and he's like [laughs] he like holds up his phone, "Listen to this." And just his wife just chewing him out and cussing him out.

    27. TFTim Ferriss30:40

        [laughs]

    28. JJJordan Jonas30:40

        He's like, "That's the fury of a Russian woman," you know? [laughs]

    29. TFTim Ferriss30:43

        [laughs]

    30. JJJordan Jonas30:43

        'Cause he's miss- been missing for who knows how long.
11. 35:32 – 38:42

    Reindeer vs caribou.

    1. JJJordan Jonas35:32

       ... is really enriching

    2. TFTim Ferriss35:32

       ... let's unpack this word and this animal and the significance of reindeer.

    3. JJJordan Jonas35:39

       Yeah.

    4. TFTim Ferriss35:39

       Because it's come up a ton, and people are like, "What is up with these magical reindeer?"

    5. JJJordan Jonas35:42

       [laughs]

    6. TFTim Ferriss35:43

       Probably. So first of all, just to paint a picture for folks, and this might not help, but how similar are reindeer to caribou for people who-

    7. JJJordan Jonas35:51

       Very similar. You probably wouldn't recognize a difference, but they do have a slight genetic, just from separation. So reindeer are technically in the Old World-

    8. TFTim Ferriss36:00

       Mm-hmm

    9. JJJordan Jonas36:00

       ... and caribou are the similar animal but in the New World.

    10. TFTim Ferriss36:04

        Right.

    11. JJJordan Jonas36:04

        So Canada and stuff. And they can breed with each other and stuff, but they, the results turn out poorly. Like, they get the worst-

    12. TFTim Ferriss36:11

        Mm-hmm

    13. JJJordan Jonas36:11

        ... traits of both. In the Old World, the reindeer were domesticated very long ago, like 10,000 years ago or whenever, so there's actually kind of become a bit of a domestic strain of reindeer. Like, the natives now can't domesticate the wild ones, and if a wild one comes in and breeds with theirs, then it's always gonna be wild. So it's been a way of life long enough that there's some even genetic separation between the wild and the-

    14. TFTim Ferriss36:41

        Mm-hmm

    15. JJJordan Jonas36:41

        ... semi-domestic ones.

    16. TFTim Ferriss36:42

        And what is the role of the reindeer? Why are they so ... important. Is it analogous to, say, bison for some of the Plains Indians in North America? Is it different?

    17. JJJordan Jonas36:55

        Well, it's, it's analogous-

    18. TFTim Ferriss36:55

        I guess it is actually, it's different because of the domestication piece.

    19. JJJordan Jonas36:58

        Exactly. I was gonna say, it's, it's analogous in that, you know, their whole cultural stories and everything are all connected with the reindeer like with the bison, but it does differ because the reindeer actually practically make living in the woods, in the taiga, in those r- remote northern forests, a thing.

    20. TFTim Ferriss37:18

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JJJordan Jonas37:18

        Like, it makes it possible to exist out there year-round and have transportation. So they ride the reindeer like you would horses, and then they also, in the wintertime, ride 'em w- you know, sleighs. They provide meat when the hunts don't go well. They provide the furs that ... You know, so they kind of provide everything. They also provide just the cultural context. Like, you could go out there, sure, and set up a tipi and live and bring in noodles and, [laughs] you know, and be just fine, but, but it would feel fairly dead without just the rhythms of life that are created by the reindeer. So they're really core to, to that.

    22. TFTim Ferriss37:59

        Sort of the rhythms-

    23. JJJordan Jonas38:00

        To the rhythms and, and-

    24. TFTim Ferriss38:01

        Of life

    25. JJJordan Jonas38:01

        ... but also they're very practically ... I always hated snowmobiles, 'cause they're gonna break down, and then you're gonna be stuck, you know, 40 kilometers from camp, and like you said, your hands aren't working, you gotta try to work on this little thing. When you got a reindeer and a sleigh, no problem, you know? [laughs]

    26. TFTim Ferriss38:18

        You're fine.

    27. JJJordan Jonas38:18

        Yeah, yeah.

    28. TFTim Ferriss38:19

        Yeah.

    29. JJJordan Jonas38:19

        And so there's a point that is interesting to make that I learned living in the woods for a while, is like, you're home. You're just already home wherever you are. And so, like, when you have your reindeer and stuff, you're not lost, you're home. You know, like just where you are is kind of home, and you're able to take that and really embody it and become, like, a part of the wilderness in that way. [laughs]

    30. TFTim Ferriss38:41

        Mm-hmm.

12. 38:42 – 42:43

    The Gulag Archipelago at 17.

    1. TFTim Ferriss38:42

       So we're gonna get back to hopping trains in a second, but you, you kinda passed over Gulag Archipelago.

    2. JJJordan Jonas38:52

       Right. [laughs]

    3. TFTim Ferriss38:53

       And you're like, "It had an influence, it had an impact on me."

    4. JJJordan Jonas38:56

       Mm-hmm.

    5. TFTim Ferriss38:56

       Seems like that might be an understatement.

    6. JJJordan Jonas38:58

       Mm-hmm.

    7. TFTim Ferriss38:59

       I don't know.

    8. JJJordan Jonas38:59

       [laughs]

    9. TFTim Ferriss39:00

       For people who are wondering, this is not a light, breezy, 100-page read.

    10. JJJordan Jonas39:04

        Mm-hmm.

    11. TFTim Ferriss39:06

        And we're gonna come to that in, in just a second, but what did your childhood education look like?

    12. JJJordan Jonas39:12

        I was homeschooled, so I was... My mom took it real seriously, and we, she was pretty hands-on in, in teaching us. And I, for whatever reason, really got into history as a young kid. So even probably was 12, I read this big, I remember it was my first real thick book, but it was about Iwo Jima and, like-

    13. TFTim Ferriss39:29

        Mm-hmm

    14. JJJordan Jonas39:29

        ... World War II and those battles. And, and then I got really into those memoirs, read a bunch of German memoirs from World War II, which were always crazy, 'cause they had to go through so much, and then the Russian ones, 'cause I was... Anyway, got into all the memoirs, and then somehow came across The Gulag Archipelago. And I was fairly young, you know, I was probably 17, 18 when I first read it, and it impacted me in, in a lot of ways that were relevant to my, you know, the little spiritual path that I was on before. Because a lot of what he talks about is that happiness can't be our ultimate goal in life. We have to have purpose, you know? And so-

    15. TFTim Ferriss40:08

        C- could you, just for people who-

    16. JJJordan Jonas40:10

        Mm-hmm

    17. TFTim Ferriss40:10

        ... s- uh, and certainly I'm not intimately familiar with the book, what is written about?

    18. JJJordan Jonas40:14

        Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn was a guy who was on the front in World War II and wrote a letter back criticizing Stalin or something. And of course, he got checked, and he got arrested and sent to a gulag, which were the Soviet prison camps that, you know, kinda snaked their way all through the Soviet Union. And, and he w- they were particularly harsh on political prisoners, as opposed to crime prisoners. [laughs] But like, so they would send these guys out to basically death camps and have them mine or do the labor, basically, that kept the thing going. But they were designed to be really brutal and dark places. You know, they, just the way the, the fact that even, you know, because the political prisoners were the bottom of the rung, they allowed the, like, rapists and those guys to kinda rule the roost and set the rules. And so it is, they degraded into some pretty terrible situations. And so he... Uh, but this was all unknown, basically, to the West, and he was some kind of a brilliant mind, and he, over his eight or however many years he was in the prison camp, had an ency- cyclopedic ability to, like, remember, maybe he wrote down, I don't know, but all these stories of people who had been through all these situations. And when you read it, I was just struck by, like, man, there's all, there's a little paragraph about this lady. That lady should have her own book. Like, that's a crazy amount of tragedy and story and, uh, and all the stuff packed in those books. Another example of something that really stood out was, like, you know, when you get in prison, everybody says to themself, "I'm gonna survive," you know? Uh, and then you add, "at any cost" to the end, almost nonchalantly. And then pretty soon you part, start down this path where you're basically stomping on others to survive because you need to, you know, look out for number one, survival of the fittest. And he was like, and everybody basically adopted that mentality. He's like, except for these, like, corrupt Orthodox Church had somehow created these babushka, [laughs] these old ladies that didn't allow their soul to go down that path. And he's like, they all died, but they all were a light in the-

    19. TFTim Ferriss42:22

        In the darkness

    20. JJJordan Jonas42:22

        ... in the darkness on their way. And then kinda gets at the point of, yeah, the, you could lose your life, but don't lose your soul. And, like, happiness can't be your ultimate goal. That can be taken from you by a health change or by getting thrown in a gulag or by [laughs] whatever it is. You have to have something deeper. And so f- forging a purpose, you know?

13. 42:43 – 47:08

    The homeschooling advantage: Finishing academics by noon, then deep-diving history for fun

    1. TFTim Ferriss42:43

       I wanted to talk about the- ... homeschooling because [laughs]

    2. JJJordan Jonas42:49

       [laughs]

    3. TFTim Ferriss42:50

       Not that there is a single mold, but-

    4. JJJordan Jonas42:52

       Yeah

    5. TFTim Ferriss42:53

       ... there are, there are certain, I suppose, ar- maybe archetypes that people might have in their heads as to what constitutes, like, a rugged mountain man effectively. And I was chatting with my girlfriend last night, and she was like, "He doesn't really fit-

    6. JJJordan Jonas43:09

       [laughs]

    7. TFTim Ferriss43:10

       ... my vision of, like, a rugged mountain man," which is not, she's not saying you're not rugged.

    8. JJJordan Jonas43:14

       Yeah. [laughs]

    9. TFTim Ferriss43:14

       But when you're talking about, and I'm sure we'll get to this, like Assyrian history and reading Gulag Archipelago as a 17-year-old, like, these are not terribly common-

    10. JJJordan Jonas43:27

        Yeah

    11. TFTim Ferriss43:27

        ... things that get woven together.

    12. JJJordan Jonas43:29

        Mm-hmm.

    13. TFTim Ferriss43:29

        How did your mom do the homeschooling? Like, what did a week look like or the lesson plans? Does that, does that make any sense?

    14. JJJordan Jonas43:35

        Yeah.

    15. TFTim Ferriss43:35

        I'm just wondering because homeschooling, I think it, for a lot of people in the United States seems like an aberration, but when you look at some of the people whose books we read-

    16. JJJordan Jonas43:45

        Mm-hmm

    17. TFTim Ferriss43:45

        ... a lot of them had some equivalent of homeschooling. And-

    18. JJJordan Jonas43:48

        Yeah. You know what I think it kind of is, is it's a, you know, like a public school, there is a standard, and everybody's gonna t- be taught to that standard, and there's kind of a minimum bar and this and that. Homeschooling allows for more divergent options, both on the negative and the positive, so you can keep your kid at home and not teach him anything and go on, but also you can really focus on your kids' unique interests and abilities, and they can really excel and develop those in a way you wouldn't in kind of the public school realm. So because I was, yeah, really into history, you know, we leaned into that and, and I had the time to, 'cause honestly, in a public school setting, you burn up so much time going to rec- you know, just dinking around, whereas I could get done with my actual academic schooling in just a couple hours in the morning, a few hours maybe, and then go on to my interests. And so it allows you to do that. And she kinda taught us, you know, initially she was really hands-on, and then the older we got, it was more hands-off, where we had to be more self-taught and follow this whatever curriculum she had. And then the last two years of school, so my last junior and senior year, I went to a public high school.

    19. TFTim Ferriss44:59

        Mm-hmm.

    20. JJJordan Jonas45:00

        Got that experience too.

    21. TFTim Ferriss45:01

        Got socialized.

    22. JJJordan Jonas45:01

        Got socialized [laughs]

    23. TFTim Ferriss45:03

        [laughs]

    24. JJJordan Jonas45:03

        Which was an odd experience. [laughs] Just ki-

    25. TFTim Ferriss45:06

        [laughs]

    26. JJJordan Jonas45:08

        I'm not sure what I think of the socialization, but-

    27. TFTim Ferriss45:10

        [laughs]

    28. JJJordan Jonas45:11

        ... it was, uh...

    29. TFTim Ferriss45:12

        Prefer... Yeah, I was gonna say prefer to be an indoor cat, but you're not really an indoor cat.

    30. JJJordan Jonas45:16

        No. So with homeschooling, though, I think it has a really awesome thing. You know, I, I think it's great that it's an option in the country. It is one thing if you're homeschooled, you have to focus on its weakness, which is, like, community and friends and, and developing that. So for people that think that's a interesting option, just know that that's its weakness and then account for that in how you organize. So that's what we do with our kids.
14. 47:08 – 49:25

    Campfire psychology for gentlemen.

    1. JJJordan Jonas47:08

       Yeah.

    2. TFTim Ferriss47:08

       And similarly, it's like when we were out in the woods, and we were sitting around. Your brother was there.

    3. JJJordan Jonas47:14

       Mm-hmm.

    4. TFTim Ferriss47:15

       Maybe had a thing or two to do with the jujitsu influence, I don't know.

    5. JJJordan Jonas47:18

       [laughs]

    6. TFTim Ferriss47:18

       Another reason to never start fights. Like, you would not see him and be like, "Oh, I'm terrified of that guy."

    7. JJJordan Jonas47:22

       [laughs] Right.

    8. TFTim Ferriss47:23

       And yet he could absolutely bend you into a pretzel and, and cause lots of orthopedic-

    9. JJJordan Jonas47:27

       He's a monster. Yeah

    10. TFTim Ferriss47:27

        ... lifelong problems. [laughs]

    11. JJJordan Jonas47:30

        [laughs]

    12. TFTim Ferriss47:30

        Um, so we were out there. It was your brother, couple of llamas, one with a slightly lopsided head prone to falling over.

    13. JJJordan Jonas47:38

        [laughs]

    14. TFTim Ferriss47:38

        It's a long story. And then just a few guys, right? Two of my close friends, and we're all around a fire. And I can't remember who said it. Maybe it was your brother, maybe it was Mike. But, oh, I get it. I see why. This is, again, not saying this is a purely gendered thing. But this-

    15. JJJordan Jonas47:58

        Mm-hmm

    16. TFTim Ferriss47:58

        ... is what he said, 'cause it was all guys.

    17. JJJordan Jonas48:00

        Mike, yeah, that was a good one. Yeah.

    18. TFTim Ferriss48:00

        Mike probably. And he said-

    19. JJJordan Jonas48:01

        No, it was, uh, Matt

    20. TFTim Ferriss48:03

        ... it was Matt, okay. Who said, "Now I see why guys like fire so much."

    21. JJJordan Jonas48:07

        Yeah.

    22. TFTim Ferriss48:07

        "Because they can connect and talk without making eye contact."

    23. JJJordan Jonas48:11

        [laughs] Oh, no.

    24. TFTim Ferriss48:11

        You can just look at the fire. Having something that is, like, ancillary.

    25. JJJordan Jonas48:15

        Yeah, I thought it was a very, a fun observation of-

    26. TFTim Ferriss48:18

        Yeah

    27. JJJordan Jonas48:18

        ... paid a little more attention to it ever since. But it does just give you something, a third party to, "Hey, we should have a little, start a little fire on the table here."

    28. TFTim Ferriss48:26

        [laughs]

    29. JJJordan Jonas48:26

        No, but the, uh, um, for sure having a common activity like that. And we are fortunate enough to just be able to, to live in a place that's really conducive to sending the kids outside, and it's something I've obviously tried to foster in them. So they do spend a lot of time just running around and being creative, and, you know, they don't have... One thing I've avoided a bit is phones and stuff like that, and I think it is fairly low-hanging fruit because I mean, you can see how they affect us-

    30. TFTim Ferriss48:57

        Mm-hmm
15. 49:25 – 55:05

    Why llamas are more practical than reindeer on Jordan's expeditions in the northern United States.

    1. TFTim Ferriss49:25

       as, for instance, I'm training this very large puppy right now.

    2. JJJordan Jonas49:30

       [laughs]

    3. TFTim Ferriss49:31

       Although, I think I'm being trained-

    4. JJJordan Jonas49:32

       [laughs]

    5. TFTim Ferriss49:33

       ... a lot more probably. In any case, very different personality from my other dog.

    6. JJJordan Jonas49:38

       Mm-hmm.

    7. TFTim Ferriss49:38

       Probably mixed with Anatolian Shepherd. Very stubborn. And when you're trying to train a dog like that, I remember a dog trainer said to me, "If you're using treats," as an example, right?

    8. JJJordan Jonas49:52

       Mm-hmm.

    9. TFTim Ferriss49:52

       "You have to tip with 20s 'cause the bar is crowded."

    10. JJJordan Jonas49:55

        Mm-hmm.

    11. TFTim Ferriss49:55

        Right? There are a lot of distractions.

    12. JJJordan Jonas49:57

        Mm-hmm.

    13. TFTim Ferriss49:57

        And when I think about kids, and of course, I do not have kids yet, I hope to in the very near future.

    14. JJJordan Jonas50:06

        Cool.

    15. TFTim Ferriss50:07

        But if you're sitting in an apartment in the city-

    16. JJJordan Jonas50:11

        Mm-hmm

    17. TFTim Ferriss50:11

        ... and you're like, "Kids, you can't use your phone."

    18. JJJordan Jonas50:13

        Mm-hmm.

    19. TFTim Ferriss50:14

        What are you offering them as an alternative?

    20. JJJordan Jonas50:17

        Mm-hmm.

    21. TFTim Ferriss50:17

        Right?

    22. JJJordan Jonas50:17

        Mm-hmm.

    23. TFTim Ferriss50:17

        It's like, what is the alternative that is more compelling? And you've deliberately put yourself in an environment where there's, you have quite a lot to choose from.

    24. JJJordan Jonas50:27

        And that has been intentional, and obviously, that is probably more difficult if you have a small apartment and you live in a city. You know, I imagine it takes a lot more hands-on, going to the park or, you know, there's a lot of creative outlets in learning to paint, learning an instrument, learning a this or that, that may scratch that itch. For me, I did have it as a high priority to let the outdoors be a big part of our life, so I moved where that was possible, and I have structured our life such. I got the llamas, you know, [laughs] we were joking about initially, so that I could take the family out on one, two-week long trips rather than, because I just couldn't carry enough gear to take them out for shorter. So it's been really intentional, and it's been great, and it's something to work out in a more urban context. But I guess it's, it's not where I'm at, so.

    25. TFTim Ferriss51:17

        Llamas. People might be like, "Llamas? Really? Are we in the Andes?"

    26. JJJordan Jonas51:19

        No, that's a good point.

    27. TFTim Ferriss51:19

        "What's going on?"

    28. JJJordan Jonas51:20

        Yeah.

    29. TFTim Ferriss51:21

        Why llamas instead of-

    30. JJJordan Jonas51:21

        That's a great question
16. 55:05 – 1:04:49

    How Jordan's grandparents found purpose and built a joyful family after surviving Assyrian genocide.

    1. JJJordan Jonas55:05

       of tea.

    2. TFTim Ferriss55:06

       Let's hop to purpose.

    3. JJJordan Jonas55:08

       Mm-hmm.

    4. TFTim Ferriss55:08

       Right?

    5. JJJordan Jonas55:09

       Mm-hmm.

    6. TFTim Ferriss55:09

       This, which I, I feel like- Looking back at your family history, looking back... And is it fair just to tie up one loose end-

    7. JJJordan Jonas55:20

       Mm-hmm

    8. TFTim Ferriss55:20

       ... with Gulag Archipelago, is it, how analogous is it to Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl?

    9. JJJordan Jonas55:26

       It's real similar. I think it's like the thicker version of that.

    10. TFTim Ferriss55:30

        Mm-hmm.

    11. JJJordan Jonas55:30

        You know, it's like Gulag Archipelago light would be the Man's Search for Meaning.

    12. TFTim Ferriss55:33

        Yeah. Got it. Okay. Could you give us a bit of your family history? And you can go back to your grandmother. You could-

    13. JJJordan Jonas55:43

        Mm-hmm

    14. TFTim Ferriss55:43

        ... kind of start wherever you want. The, the purpose specifically made me think of your dad-

    15. JJJordan Jonas55:47

        Right. I know

    16. TFTim Ferriss55:47

        ... and, and the reinvention of purpose-

    17. JJJordan Jonas55:50

        Yeah, yeah

    18. TFTim Ferriss55:50

        ... which I think is a pressing need for a lot of people-

    19. JJJordan Jonas55:54

        Yeah

    20. TFTim Ferriss55:54

        ... in a fast-moving modern environment where-

    21. JJJordan Jonas55:56

        Mm-hmm

    22. TFTim Ferriss55:56

        ... they feel like they're on very unstable ground-

    23. JJJordan Jonas56:00

        Mm-hmm

    24. TFTim Ferriss56:00

        ... perhaps in a lot of ways.

    25. JJJordan Jonas56:01

        Mm-hmm.

    26. TFTim Ferriss56:02

        But let's go back. You know, I threw out this term Assyrian, but most people don't... It's not a familiar word.

    27. JJJordan Jonas56:10

        I guess you would almost call it the indigenous people of the Middle East, you know, before kind of the Arab takeovers and stuff, were Aramaic-speaking Assyrians, is what they're called. So that's what my family was. They lived in northwestern Iran, kind of near a lake called Lake Urmia. And during the chaos of World War I, you know, there had been, the Ottoman Empire was crumbling and, and all these people who had been under the Ottoman, like, colonial yoke were seeking out their independence and their freedom-

    28. TFTim Ferriss56:44

        Mm-hmm

    29. JJJordan Jonas56:44

        ... and breaking off. And in all that chaos, I think what happened was they, it was an easy time to get rid of a entire people group. You know, like actually Anatolia, you have an Anatolian shepherd, was a pretty diverse place up until then.

    30. TFTim Ferriss57:00

        Mm-hmm.
17. 1:04:49 – 1:12:28

    Dad's 12-year health collapse and facing death with radical joy.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:04:49

       Yeah.

    2. JJJordan Jonas1:04:49

       Mm-hmm.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:04:50

       Well, let's talk about your dad. I mean, whether by nature or nurture or both, he made s- seemingly some pretty remarkable choices as well.

    4. JJJordan Jonas1:04:57

       So he w- grew up as a, obviously a son of immigrants in America, and they, was raised by mostly his sister out on [laughs] you know, it's like, all I think he really wanted was a family and stability and wanted to work hard. And, you know, his most joyful-

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:05:12

       Mm-hmm

    6. JJJordan Jonas1:05:12

       ... moments when I was growing up was when he'd come home from work, and we'd run out and give him a hug. Like, I think that was his, like, life most fully lived, was just being a provider and being able to, you know, he was an engineer, so he was smart guy [laughs] and being able to, like, just create a family. That's really what he wanted. He was very family-oriented. But then it was interesting 'cause when, he had also had childhood diabetes and polio, so he had some health issues, and he wasn't great at managing his diabetes well. So when he was probably about, I mean, I was pretty young, I guess, you know, still a teenager probably, he started, you know, get the sores on your feet that you get. And then basically because of the degrading situation with his feet, he lost his job, and all of a sudden he had to watch as my mom had to go back to school, which was something that was very difficult for her 'cause she's just not academic. But sh- but no longer could Dad be the provider. He was basically somebody we had to care for 'cause he lo- ended up losing his foot and this and that, and it was like a 12-year process of his health degrading. And it was really hard for him. You know, Mom's going to school, and we had to go to the food bank, and I remember him just, like, crying, like, "I failed." [laughs] Like, the one thing he wanted to do.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:06:31

       Yeah. Brutal.

    8. JJJordan Jonas1:06:31

       And then his foot finally recovered, and he and I went out in the woods, and we were splitting wood, and he, like, crushed his foot into the log splitter.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:06:39

       Oh.

    10. JJJordan Jonas1:06:40

        And it was [laughs] oh, deflate yourself.

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:06:43

        Oh.

    12. JJJordan Jonas1:06:43

        So then they just amputated his other foot, and so basically he lost his ability, his physical ability to, to pursue his purpose in the world, and, uh, that was really difficult for him to do. He had to watch his family suffer and this and that. But then it was interesting over the years-

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:07:01

        Mm

    14. JJJordan Jonas1:07:01

        ... to watch him. So from my perspective as his son, from my mom's perspective as his wife, we never lost sight of his purpose. You know, like, we, we knew who he was in our lives. It was never about the money he was bringing home or the this or that. It was like, what an encourager, and, you know, what a [laughs] joyful person and all that. And we never lost sight of that. He did. But then it was interesting to see over the course of those 12 years of health degradation how it was almost like- He had to re-find his purpose, and he did. And, you know, [laughs] like, and then when his health was at its worst and he was on dialysis and in tons of pain and stuff, was in a way when his, what would you call it, spiritual giftings or something, were at their peak. Like, he was really able to... I could hear him at night crying in pain and like, "Oh, oh." And then in the morning he would, "Oh, Jordan, you're, you know, doing great," and this and that, and, "Let's read this psalm together," or, "Let's do this." You know, he was very much... He refound his purpose in pouring into us and into facing the loss of his health and his own death with joy. And that's what he did. He finally was like, "Man, it's... I'm in too much pain. It's too degrading, you know, to have me rolling him off the bed, and take him to dialysis." He's like, "I'm just gonna stop going to dialysis." And that was a hard decision for him, but when he did, it was just like, all right, let's just party for the next two weeks. You know, he was diabetic, so finally he could eat all the crap food he wanted. [laughs] And we all had tons of laughs, and he was kind of full of joy right up until the end. And you're like, what a cool legacy to see someone face all that and see purpose, not in their life even, but even in how to face death and the way he did that. We're all gonna be in the same position where we lose our, whether our health or whatever inevitable suffering is coming down the hatch, you know? Like, I now have a template for how to face that in a way that I'm still putting into the world some kind of light, because I could see that it's not only possible, but, you know, I could see the template for doing that. So it's interesting having seen that. It really makes you be grateful for the, like, the blessing I have now, and that I do know what I love to do, and that I have an opportunity to, to share it with others, and I know my purpose now as it is. But I also know that's gonna have to evolve with inevitabilities of aging [laughs] and, and everything else. And so it's interesting to make sure your priorities now are in such a way that as you have to shift directions, that you'll be able to make that adjustment. Like, they should rhyme, you know? You shouldn't have to, like... It's not gonna be something completely different.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:09:42

        Mm-hmm.

    16. JJJordan Jonas1:09:42

        It's just gonna evolve into a little bit different angle, but-

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:09:45

        When you think of your dad's purpose changing-

    18. JJJordan Jonas1:09:50

        Mm-hmm

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:09:50

        ... over those 12 years-

    20. JJJordan Jonas1:09:51

        Mm-hmm

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:09:53

        ... is one way to view it as him going from prioritizing how he acted in the world, like how he does things in the world, to how he then supports and teaches the rest of you in the family? I mean, w- was he taking on more of a teacher role? Was it a supporter role? I mean, how-

    22. JJJordan Jonas1:10:11

        Yeah, maybe not explicitly, but definitely implicitly. His gifting was that he really was an encourager and was really joyful and f- you know, people enjoyed being around him, and he was able to lean into those skills, you know, those gifts, in spite of the fact that he couldn't walk or that he couldn't [laughs] didn't have hands or whatever. [laughs] I think you lean into those giftings that you have that are not dependent on your ability to produce, you know? [laughs]

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:10:42

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JJJordan Jonas1:10:43

        Which, which is great while you have it, but-

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:10:45

        How long after he stopped dialysis, how long did he last after that?

    26. JJJordan Jonas1:10:49

        It was about a week. It wasn't as long even as we expected, you know? Like, I, it might be up to two weeks or whatever. At about a, I think it was about a week in, his temperature just spiked and then that was it. We were all around and-

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:11:01

        Did you at the time understand his decision? Were you conflicted about it?

    28. JJJordan Jonas1:11:08

        Yeah, it, you know, to be fair, I mean, to be honest, I actually... He was really struggling with it 'cause, you know, he was also a man of faith, and I remember him reading, you know, he was like, "Well, it says," you know. 'Cause he really was having a hard time hanging on, you know? 'Cause just the pain, the amount of pain he was in and stuff. But he was like, "It says here, you know, the Lord will never give you more than you can bear." And I remember actually in conversation with him, "Well, that's actually not true, Dad. Like, everybody that's died was given more than they can bear." It says they won't tempt you beyond your ability to bear, which is a different thing, you know? You're kind of on a different realm there. [laughs]

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:11:44

        Yeah.

    30. JJJordan Jonas1:11:44

        And, and so we had that conversation, so it's not that I was... I wanted him to hang on as long as possible, but I also wanted him to have the freedom to... You know, we talked a lot about how it's weird in the modern world where you have this choice that we've never had in the past, where you have to now choose when to stop going to dialysis or stop doing this or that, or you can just drag on your inevitable downfall kind of forever. And so I think it was ultimately, it just came down to the fact that he wasn't ever gonna get better. He recognized that. He was in a lot of pain, and I think he wanted to free, you know... I mean, you can only do that for so long.
18. 1:12:28 – 1:23:22

    Freight train philosophy and evolutionary dopamine alignment.

    1. JJJordan Jonas1:12:28

       probably.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:12:29

       Mm-hmm. I'm gonna use some of the kind of promises and perils of modern healthcare, like you said-

    3. JJJordan Jonas1:12:34

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:12:35

       ... to extend the runway sometimes in cases where the quality of life just entails so much suffering or lack of awareness that it just, it raises a lot of ethical questions-

    5. JJJordan Jonas1:12:47

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:12:48

       ... right, that we didn't have to face 200 years ago-

    7. JJJordan Jonas1:12:50

       Right. Right

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:12:50

       ... 300 years ago. Just to take a closer look at modern living-

    9. JJJordan Jonas1:12:55

       Mm-hmm

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:12:55

        ... and specifically where I wanna go with that is maybe we could take it to our trip in the mountains.

    11. JJJordan Jonas1:13:03

        Mm-hmm.

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:13:03

        Because particularly since we weren't doing any hunting, if you're hunting, then you have to time your rhythm with your quarry, and it's a different situation. But I remember asking you at one point, I was like, "So when are we waking up tomorrow?" And you're like, "Well, when we wanna wake up."

    13. JJJordan Jonas1:13:18

        [laughs]

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:13:20

        And this comes back to the Evenki as well.

    15. JJJordan Jonas1:13:21

        Mm-hmm.

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:13:22

        And living in a settlement where you are managing someone else's property or an employee of the government-

    17. JJJordan Jonas1:13:33

        Mm-hmm

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:13:33

        ... versus having more flexibility in, in the way you structure your life and your days.

    19. JJJordan Jonas1:13:39

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:13:39

        Right? I would just love you, to hear you riff on sort of overstructure versus too little structure versus where humans kind of naturally fall.

    21. JJJordan Jonas1:13:48

        The first glimpse I got of this Way of life that we've lost in the modern context was actually riding trains, where it's like you wake up in the morning, I don't have anything I have to do, I just gotta figure out where to get food and water, and that's basically it.

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:14:02

        Can you give us, like, a minute or two of just, like, how on earth did you end up hopping trains? [laughs]

    23. JJJordan Jonas1:14:06

        The quick minute or two of that was that my brother had, for whatever reason, done it for years. He hitchhiked and didn't like relying on people to pick him up. Somehow he heard about riding trains, jumped on one, and probably a lot to do with this freedom that we're about to discuss, just loved it. And then 10 years, he basically, or seven or eight or 10, however many years, he just rode trains, and at some point when I was 18 or so invited me to go along and, and so I did, which was probably a fork in my road just from having a job and doing the stuff to all of a sudden-

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:14:39

        It's a pretty wide fork, yeah

    25. JJJordan Jonas1:14:40

        ... being a bum. [laughs]

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:14:43

        [laughs]

    27. JJJordan Jonas1:14:43

        But what you glimpse that I think is the appeal there is that, yeah, that, that rhythm of life that humans are designed for, that we've lived for as long as humans have been around, it's like then I would really get immersed in, again, living with the natives later, where you wake up and you have a... things you have to do, but there's no particular schedule. They're all directly tied to your existence right now. You know, you're not working to make money to put in your 401 [k] so that later this... You know, it's just all very direct. It's like, "Oh, let's go catch some fish today. We're hungry," or, "The reindeer might be getting away. Let's go herd them back." And, you know, you kinda have these activities that are directly related to your life, and in that, you would know the proper terminology, but it feels like your dopamine and your serotonin, all that kind of stuff, is just lined up properly.

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:15:34

        Well, you're living the way that we have evolved to live.

    29. JJJordan Jonas1:15:36

        Exactly. You're f- in the right mold basically [laughs] for that, and I've described it be- before, but when you're successful on a hunt or when you, like, get into some good fish and you're in that rhythm, it's like you just couldn't be more joyful than that. There's just no more... That's it. That's your max human experience. It's, "This is amazing. Yeah," you know? We didn't have to earn a bunch of money, and it's just so much more accessible [laughs] in a way, which is interesting.

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:16:02

        Well, it, it also makes me think about... I [laughs] sorry to jump in, but-
19. 1:23:22 – 1:26:22

    Grandma moose rodeo.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:23:22

       one more story. I mean, these are all gonna be stories, but we're gonna do one more story. Some of the native hunters are better than others. I'm gonna cue you. [laughs] Also involves moose, if I'm not mistaken. Canoe?

    2. JJJordan Jonas1:23:36

       Oh, this is great.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:23:37

       [laughs]

    4. JJJordan Jonas1:23:37

       Yeah, this is another hilarious story. So there are these two in their mid-60s women that were gonna come out to the tribe. So there's this village, the native village, 500 people.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:23:50

       [laughs]

    6. JJJordan Jonas1:23:51

       It was about a 12-hour float from a place that's a common stop that the nomads often stop. And so they had found out that we were gonna be there, so these old ladies were gonna come out and visit the tribe. Well, they got in a... It's just a 12-hour float, so you don't really need much to get there at the end of the day, and can eat when you get there. So all they brought, as you, any native did, would be an axe. And so they untied their rope, it was an aluminum boat, and jumped in the boat, and they're just floating along. Well, picture two [laughs] you know, senior citizen women floating down, and there's a moose swimming across the, the po- the lake, and-

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:24:30

       [laughs] Jackpot

    8. JJJordan Jonas1:24:30

       ... as, as you do, [laughs] they thought, "We gotta kill this thing. We'll be the heroes or whatever."

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:24:35

       [laughs]

    10. JJJordan Jonas1:24:35

        So they rowed up next to it, and with the rope that was attached to the front of their boat, they lassoed over the, I don't know if it was the antlers or the neck of this thing. But at the same time, they had the axe. They pictured themselves, like, chopping it in the neck and-

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:24:50

        Mm

    12. JJJordan Jonas1:24:50

        ... trying to kill it. Well, it of course, got traction on the shore, and it was on the water before they were able to pull that off, and took off into the woods, and skied these ladies in this boat behind him, like several hundred yards up into the woods before it finally went through these two trees and snapped the rope off, and it disappeared. And those ladies, like, just were gone for a few days. [laughs] They had to, like, sit by the side of the river till the next people. They couldn't carry their boat, so they just sat there until finally somebody floated by that could help them drag their boat back to the water. And the lady, they made it out. The lady was very funny, 'cause we then had to get back to the village eventually. It was like a, you know, by land, it was like a 30-kilometer reindeer ride, and that poor lady... And I had the same problem. I would always fall off the reindeer, but she was the, the only other person that apparently had that problem. [laughs] 'Cause they just put the saddle on loosely. It's not like a horse saddle where you kinda cinch it up.

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:25:48

        Yeah.

    14. JJJordan Jonas1:25:49

        They just throw it on and it kinda wobbles, but they get used to it, and so they can kinda ride along, and it took me a long time to get used to, but obviously it took her also a long time. And I was walking, but we were in the rain, and that poor lady, every time we crossed a river or a puddle or anything, it was just whoosh. [laughs]

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:26:06

        [laughs]

    16. JJJordan Jonas1:26:06

        Had to keep lifting her back on. It was very funny. That was a great story. I g- they're a different breed of people that- When Grandma sees the moose swimming across the river [laughs] and decide to go-

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:26:17

        Goes the hatchet in the neck

    18. JJJordan Jonas1:26:17

        ... and go and axe it. [laughs]

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:26:20

        All right. So

20. 1:26:22 – 1:33:36

    Alone Season 6: The "Super Bowl of survival" just south of the Arctic Circle.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:26:22

       I'd be remiss if we didn't talk a little bit about Alone.

    2. JJJordan Jonas1:26:26

       Mm-hmm.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:26:26

       Which is probably the only, let's call it reality TV show, that I've watched two full seasons of in the last-

    4. JJJordan Jonas1:26:34

       Which were they?

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:26:35

       ... decade.

    6. JJJordan Jonas1:26:35

       I'm curious.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:26:35

       Six and seven.

    8. JJJordan Jonas1:26:36

       Oh, yeah.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:26:36

       Because the word on the street, otherwise known as the internet-

    10. JJJordan Jonas1:26:40

        Yeah

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:26:40

        ... was that season six, which you were a part of-

    12. JJJordan Jonas1:26:43

        Mm-hmm

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:26:43

        ... and season seven were two of the highlights.

    14. JJJordan Jonas1:26:46

        Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:26:47

        With some insane fucking events that transpire-

    16. JJJordan Jonas1:26:52

        [laughs]

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:26:52

        ... in these two seasons. If you ever have to, you know, I had to... Well, had to, I chose after elbow surgery to do hyperbaric oxygen treatments-

    18. JJJordan Jonas1:27:00

        Oh, yeah

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:27:00

        ... for a host of reasons. Sidebar on that, if you're gonna do that, it sh- needs to be hard shell, medical grade, typically like 2 to 2.5 atmospheres. Don't do any soft shell stuff. It's a waste of time. But what do you do? You're just sitting there, and especially in a hard shell, you can't-

    20. JJJordan Jonas1:27:16

        Oh, yeah

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:27:16

        ... bring anything in. But they set up TVs.

    22. JJJordan Jonas1:27:19

        [laughs]

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:27:20

        And so my guilty pleasure turned into watching these multiple seasons of-

    24. JJJordan Jonas1:27:24

        Alone

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:27:24

        ... of Alone. So for the season that you were a part of-

    26. JJJordan Jonas1:27:29

        Mm-hmm

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:27:29

        ... because the format of the show changed a bit-

    28. JJJordan Jonas1:27:34

        Mm-hmm

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:27:34

        ... over time-

    30. JJJordan Jonas1:27:35

        Mm-hmm
21. 1:33:36 – 1:41:04

    How Jordan survived 77 days in the woods barely breaking a sweat.

    1. JJJordan Jonas1:33:36

       and [laughs] just-

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:33:37

       So how long did you ultimately last?

    3. JJJordan Jonas1:33:40

       77 days.

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:33:41

       77 days.

    5. JJJordan Jonas1:33:42

       That was... Yep.

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:33:43

       And is it fair to say that last is the wrong word to use? Because my understanding in conversations with you is that it was... Of course television has to be edited-

    7. JJJordan Jonas1:33:55

       Mm-hmm

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:33:55

       ... in such a way-

    9. JJJordan Jonas1:33:56

       Mm-hmm

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:33:56

        ... that everyone is going through this crucible with-

    11. JJJordan Jonas1:34:00

        Right

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:34:00

        ... you know, coming close to glancing off the breaking point-

    13. JJJordan Jonas1:34:03

        [laughs] Right, right, right

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:34:05

        ... and so on. But it doesn't seem like it was that hard for you.

    15. JJJordan Jonas1:34:07

        It really wasn't. [laughs] It could've been. Like, you know, it's the woods. You never know what's gonna happen. But man, it was going really well. I actually, you know, I snared a bunch of rabbits, had, like, 20-something-plus rabbits before I got the moose, which I got a moose at day 20. And then from then on, I really nailed the fishing, and I just was piling up food like crazy. And just because of my previous experience for, you know, years at a time in Russia, a couple, few, three, four months there just didn't seem like a long time away from the family, because I knew our relationship was strong and generally could handle it. And I'd come back, and we'd catch up, and it'd all be good. But I bore a lot of stress because I didn't know how long the show would last.

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:34:53

        Which is something that changed in season seven.

    17. JJJordan Jonas1:34:55

        Yeah, it was a big difference in season seven by th- in the next season, they capped it at 100 days. Which, had that been my season, would've been interesting, 'cause I... Once you get the moose, I could've just basically partied and enjoyed myself. But because I got this moose, it almost added... It was a lesson that I learned on Alone-

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:35:10

        That was the first large mammal harvest-

    19. JJJordan Jonas1:35:14

        Yeah

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:35:14

        ... on the show, right?

    21. JJJordan Jonas1:35:15

        Yeah, yeah.

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:35:16

        Yeah.

    23. JJJordan Jonas1:35:16

        And something that I really noticed out there was I should've been more present in the moment, because I did allow myself to stress about this future. You know, I was like, "Okay, I got a moose. Now I'm getting fish. Surely somebody else is. So man, we're gonna be out here six, eight months." And I lost some fat, so now I'm gonna lose. So I had like this, "I can't be out here eight months and lose." [laughs] So I was bearing a lot of stress because I didn't actually... As much as I would advise myself if I were to go on again, like, just be in the present. You know, don't worry about that future. What happened is I was gunning for 140 days before I even thought it might end, and hadn't even allowed the thought to cross my mind that it would. Had a lot of food to get there, and then it ended at day 77. And I hadn't... I can't say I ever thought I was gonna win. I went out there to win, 'cause I wasn't, like, trying to prove anything. But I, you know, you try to keep going stride, and keep- just see what happens. I'm just gonna go out there and see if I can be sustainable. And I was genuinely shocked when it ended, and thought it was gonna go quite a bit longer.

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:36:18

        Let me tackle a couple of things.

    25. JJJordan Jonas1:36:20

        Yeah, yeah.

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:36:20

        Because [laughs] there, there are a number of details that I think might be instructive to get into. First, let's talk about the basic tools.

    27. JJJordan Jonas1:36:29

        Yeah, yeah.

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:36:30

        I'm amazed. I don't wanna give too many spoilers, but, like, one of your competitors made a shocking decision, which was to not bring a ferro rod.

    29. JJJordan Jonas1:36:40

        Yeah.

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:36:40

        That was a very risky maneuver.
22. 1:41:04 – 1:48:43

    Harvesting a moose at day 20 via Russian fence-funneling tactics.

    1. JJJordan Jonas1:41:04

       that. [laughs]

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:41:05

       So the moose, so corralling or fencing, I mean, fencing gives people an image that maybe is not exactly-

    3. JJJordan Jonas1:41:11

       [laughs]

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:41:11

       ... the right image.

    5. JJJordan Jonas1:41:12

       Right. Right.

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:41:12

       But animals are really good at taking the path of least resistance.

    7. JJJordan Jonas1:41:17

       It's something you employ when you're trying to snare them, when you're trying to do anything to catch an animal. You just take advantage of the fact that we all take the path of least resistance. [laughs]

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:41:25

       What do you do?

    9. JJJordan Jonas1:41:26

       I was actually out there, and, you know, I'd done a lot of calling, a lot of placing my shelter in the proper wind location, and doing all this to try to make a moose encounter happen. And I had set up a trip wire that would signal a tin can so that it would, like, if a moose came by, I would know. And then I went out, had a 40-yard shot at a moose, and I missed. And [laughs] long story short, it was a big fail on my part. But I remember watching that moose run away just like, "Oh, you idiot," like, "How'd you do that?" You know, you get used to screwing up and failing. When you're in the woods like that by yourself, whining isn't gonna help. There's nobody else you can blame anything on.

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:42:04

        [laughs]

    11. JJJordan Jonas1:42:04

        It's like you literally better solve your problem, or you're screwed. So I was like, I was disappointed I missed the moose, but at the same time, I was immediately, it's still running away. I was like, "How do I make this happen again?" It just made me more determined to learn from what I just did. And then as I was watching it run away, it just kinda dawned on me that there's, I mean, I don't know how far apart, but say 500 yards, you know. There's just kind of hills, two hills. It's not like they were cliffs or anything, but hills. The animals are gonna go through the low point there, 'cause it's easy. And then I just remember-

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:42:34

        [laughs]

    13. JJJordan Jonas1:42:34

        ... oh, we built those fences in Russia. Like, should I really... Because what had happened is it had come on a kind of unexpected path, so I wasn't really quite set up to get him. But I was like, well, I guess I'm not here to starve. I'm here to make it happen. Like, I, I'm an action-oriented person in that way. So I went over there and decided to try to build one of those fences and funnel the... 'Cause I remember even the natives saying before guns, they used to funnel animals with fences like that-

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:43:00

        So could-

    15. JJJordan Jonas1:43:01

        ... to hunt them

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:43:01

        ... you explain, when you say fence-

    17. JJJordan Jonas1:43:03

        Yeah

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:43:03

        ... like, that might involve chopping down some saplings and kinda knocking up-

    19. JJJordan Jonas1:43:07

        Yeah. It's like the real-

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:43:08

        Knocking them over

    21. JJJordan Jonas1:43:09

        ... basic, yep

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:43:09

        ... so that you're creating obstacles, something like a moose does not wanna have to step over or navigate.

    23. JJJordan Jonas1:43:15

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:43:16

        So they go kind of where you intend them to go.

    25. JJJordan Jonas1:43:19

        Yep. Yep. So I had kinda set up the same tin can alarm system, and then I had found a nice shooting bush that I could shoot from and get to with relative cover. And then I built a fence. I hadn't even finished it when it ended up working. But with the natives, we'd do four rows, so four rows of thick logs kinda stacked-

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:43:41

        Yeah

    27. JJJordan Jonas1:43:41

        ... in such a way that they hold up into a fence-looking thing.

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:43:43

        Okay, so it did look like more of a fence.

    29. JJJordan Jonas1:43:44

        It did look like a fence when it's done, but I just initially did one rung. You know, like-

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:43:49

        Mm-hmm
23. 1:48:43 – 1:54:57

    Wolverine vs. man with axe, a tin can alarm, and a wife who likes rustic jewelry.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:48:43

       So you mentioned you had some fat stolen.

    2. JJJordan Jonas1:48:46

       Mm-hmm.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:48:47

       Noticed [laughs] some very unique earrings on your wife-

    4. JJJordan Jonas1:48:52

       [laughs]

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:48:53

       ... this morning. These may tie together.

    6. JJJordan Jonas1:48:56

       Yeah, they do.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:48:56

       What, what are the-

    8. JJJordan Jonas1:48:57

       Just so happens they tie together.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:48:58

       Yeah. What were the earrings?

    10. JJJordan Jonas1:48:59

        Man, so, you know, you're out there and things are going well, but you're still living on the edge, you know, and little mistakes can be the difference between surviving or not.

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:49:08

        Mm.

    12. JJJordan Jonas1:49:08

        And so, you know, even the process of keeping yourself hydrated, like we talk about, is, is elaborate and involved and thought out. Walking to your fishing hole, it's like, "Oh, I better take some ash so I can sprinkle on the really icy spots." And th- you know, everything's thought out. And so the last thing you need is this whole extra variable [laughs] coming in and adding a bunch of difficulty. Well, one morning I went out, and I had set my meat out on a shelf with this, like, kind of half-hearted, not half-hearted, but, you know, maybe a bear will come. And if a bear comes, I can shoot that from my shelter, so I could maybe double up and get a, almost like a ready-made bait pile. But I hadn't even really thought about the fact is that there's wolverines up there, and that they might show up and I might not hear it or notice it as much. And so I came out one morning, and I had stored probably 90,000 calories worth of fat in this gallon jug. I don't know how much is in a gallon, but full gallon of fat. And I came out, and it was, like, the day I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna render that fat." And I started looking around like, "What are these tracks?" Like, "Huh, that's interesting." Like, and then you slowly start to have something dawn on you. [laughs] Like, "No." [laughs]

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:50:16

        [laughs]

    14. JJJordan Jonas1:50:16

        And then I noticed my jug was gone. And then I was like, "Oh, those are wolverine tracks." And like, "Oh, no." And just, like, ran down the tracks- ... pointless. That thing's long gone. And so I came back and I was like, "Oh, no, I'm like, got a wolverine here." One thing you notice about the woods, when you have meat, every forest freeloader knows you have the meat. And so, like, all the jays and all the, you know, the wolves were coming around, and the wolverine now, and just everybody's coming to get your meat. And that wolverine, they're known as being some of the most ferocious animals on Earth, and they're like that honey badger video everybody's seen-

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:50:51

        Yeah

    16. JJJordan Jonas1:50:51

        ... but they're much larger and on steroids.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:50:53

        Technically in the weasel family.

    18. JJJordan Jonas1:50:54

        Weasel family. Yeah, the weasel.

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:50:55

        It's like if you took a weasel and put it on every performance-enhancing drug-

    20. JJJordan Jonas1:50:59

        [laughs] Totally

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:51:00

        ... imaginable, like Dolph Lundgren in Rocky IV-

    22. JJJordan Jonas1:51:05

        Yeah. [laughs]

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:51:05

        ... and just gave it on top of that just, like, a very irritable, combative demeanor. Like-

    24. JJJordan Jonas1:51:09

        I mean, they're not huge, like 40 pounds or whatever, but they fight off wolf packs, they take down full-grown moose

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:51:15

        So just think about that for a second, guys. 40-pound animal. How much does a moose weigh?

    26. JJJordan Jonas1:51:21

        Like 1,000 pounds at least. Yeah.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:51:22

        I mean, that's insane.

    28. JJJordan Jonas1:51:23

        They just grab on, and there's been stories of them holding onto a moose's neck for days until the thing suffocates of, of blood loss and dies.

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:51:31

        [laughs]

    30. JJJordan Jonas1:51:31

        Just like, "Nah." [laughs]
24. 1:54:57 – 1:56:55

    The crappy fate of less-than-lucky rabbit feet.

    1. JJJordan Jonas1:54:57

       Yeah, in the normal way. I couldn't even walk on the ice to ice fish yet.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:55:00

       Right.

    3. JJJordan Jonas1:55:01

       So there's a couple week period there where it's just hard to fish. And then I had all the rabbits I needed, honestly. I had so much protein with the moose that there's no reason for me to go kill or snare rabbits, so I didn't do that.

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:55:14

       Also AKA toilet paper, right?

    5. JJJordan Jonas1:55:16

       Yeah. [laughs] They make great luxury-

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:55:17

       What did you use for toilet paper?

    7. JJJordan Jonas1:55:19

       Oh, the rabbit feet.

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:55:20

       [laughs]

    9. JJJordan Jonas1:55:21

       [laughs] I hate to say it, but it was quite luxurious.

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:55:25

        Okay, continue. [laughs]

    11. JJJordan Jonas1:55:27

        [laughs] Your imaginations can carry the rest of the... And then this wolverine came, and I had to only play defense, and it was a very tangible shift that I went from being, you know, like, be in control of my own destiny to all of a sudden being on this what felt like a downhill trajectory. It's like I've collected everything I can collect, and now I just see what happens and try to defend against the wolverine, and all I can do is wait for the ice to s- You know, it felt like a very different frame of mind, and that was a more difficult period to get through.

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:55:57

        I mean, how all these animals have optimized to steal food, right? I mean-

    13. JJJordan Jonas1:56:00

        Yeah, that's all they do

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:56:00

        ... and-

    15. JJJordan Jonas1:56:01

        They're scavengers

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:56:01

        ... and so especially something like a wolverine, it's like you can take the bark off of the-

    17. JJJordan Jonas1:56:06

        Right

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:56:07

        ... pillars holding up your elevated platform, but-

    19. JJJordan Jonas1:56:10

        Mm-hmm

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:56:10

        ... um-

    21. JJJordan Jonas1:56:10

        Yeah, I made a cool platform. The Evenki had showed me. You know, they'd built a bunch of them with the natives. But, you know, you-

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:56:15

        Participated in the latest years and almost killed himself trying to copy that.

    23. JJJordan Jonas1:56:18

        Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:56:19

        [laughs]

    25. JJJordan Jonas1:56:20

        Well, you- there's a certain technique to how to build them which was useful to know to do it safely. But you're also calculating, like, not using unnecessary calories.

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:56:29

        Yeah.

    27. JJJordan Jonas1:56:29

        And so I should have finished it. There's actually a- You box in that raised platform, and then you build a box on top, and it's pretty everything-proof. But of course, again, that wolverine kept surprising me. So I had built the platform, done a few tricks to try to keep it from getting up there, and then it got up there. [laughs] And by then it was like, shoot, I should've built the thing. But, [laughs] you know, anyway. So yep, learning on the fly and trying to react accordingly,

25. 1:56:55 – 2:01:07

    Fat as a survival bottleneck, and how to experience the wild with Jordan.

    1. JJJordan Jonas1:56:55

       but-

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:56:55

       Most people in modern life-

    3. JJJordan Jonas1:56:57

       Mm-hmm

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:56:58

       ... they have their, I'm making this up, right-

    5. JJJordan Jonas1:57:00

       Mm

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:57:00

       ... random meal, but then like salmon or chicken breast-

    7. JJJordan Jonas1:57:04

       [laughs]

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:57:05

       ... some veggies, maybe some pasta or sweet potato, who knows.

    9. JJJordan Jonas1:57:11

       Mm-hmm.

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:57:11

        But you mentioned the fat being stolen.

    11. JJJordan Jonas1:57:14

        Oh, yeah.

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:57:15

        People can look up something called rabbit starvation too.

    13. JJJordan Jonas1:57:17

        Mm-hmm.

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:57:17

        But how important is fat?

    15. JJJordan Jonas1:57:20

        Yeah, you learn that really fast also, and that was the first time just solely living off the land that I had, where I didn't have any noodle backup or any- anything like that. And so for an extended period of time, I was curious how long you could live off a rabbit. I was curious how, you know, all this kind of stuff, and what I learned quite quickly was your body needs fat right away. And every day you're burning your fat reserves or fat you're bringing in. The protein, it's actually more attainable out there. There's a lot of little animals and a lot of things. Even mushrooms have protein in them, but the fat is the bottleneck of survival, for sure. And so that's why we love it, I guess. [laughs] But it was... And it just proven, it was so interesting to observe the animals, just how honed everybody was in on just the fat. The wolverine, the crows, the jays, everything would just try to get the fattiest part of your fish or your meat.

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:58:10

        Eyeballs.

    17. JJJordan Jonas1:58:11

        Mm-hmm. Eyeballs-

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:58:12

        Brains

    19. JJJordan Jonas1:58:12

        ... brain, skin. And they would leave the chunks of meat, like a big fish. They'd strip the skin off, eat kinda the fatty belly area, the eyes, and leave it.

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:58:21

        Grizzlies do the same thing, too, right? Like when they're-

    21. JJJordan Jonas1:58:23

        Mm-hmm. Yeah, right

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:58:23

        ... grabbing salmon-

    23. JJJordan Jonas1:58:24

        So you can learn-

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:58:25

        ... if they're plentiful enough, they eat the brain and just-

    25. JJJordan Jonas1:58:27

        Mm-hmm

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:58:27

        ... leave all the meat.

    27. JJJordan Jonas1:58:29

        Yep, and it's pretty interesting. So that's the fuel of the forest out there.

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:58:33

        [laughs] All right, so let's talk about some new projects. Well, first of all, so I mean, not really first of all-

    29. JJJordan Jonas1:58:42

        Yeah

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:58:42

        ... but lest I forget, where can people get one of these incredible axes? I have one.
26. 2:01:07 – 2:04:03

    Jordan hopes his upcoming book will help readers build reservoirs of resilience before they're needed.

    1. TFTim Ferriss2:01:07

       So speaking of purpose-

    2. JJJordan Jonas2:01:09

       Mm-hmm

    3. TFTim Ferriss2:01:10

       ... the book.

    4. JJJordan Jonas2:01:11

       Oh, yeah. Yeah.

    5. TFTim Ferriss2:01:12

       What are you up to? Why write a book?

    6. JJJordan Jonas2:01:14

       My wife and I talk about it fairly often, that it's like we have a life that is very good, very full, and on a lot of levels, I would say, like emotionally, spiritually, on the family. It's a big blessing. When I was on Alone too, it kinda struck me. I was like, "Well, how is this situation that's so difficult, or, I mean, even life-changing for people," it just kinda felt like another trip to Russia. Or like, it felt very normal for me. I was like, I wonder what prepared me in life to make this kind of unusual situation seem normal.

    7. TFTim Ferriss2:01:47

       And just to provide the counter to that-

    8. JJJordan Jonas2:01:51

       Mm-hmm

    9. TFTim Ferriss2:01:51

       ... I mean, people break on this show-

    10. JJJordan Jonas2:01:53

        Right

    11. TFTim Ferriss2:01:53

        ... in a lot of different ways.

    12. JJJordan Jonas2:01:54

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    13. TFTim Ferriss2:01:55

        Sometimes in very dramatic fashion.

    14. JJJordan Jonas2:01:57

        Mm-hmm. And so it made me a little bit introspective about what had prepared me for it well. And in do- in thinking about those things, I was like, man, there really are some patterns of my being that have created, you know... And Tim, if you guys listen, know he's really good at naming things and putting a place on it. But have created, like, a reservoir of resilience that-

    15. TFTim Ferriss2:02:22

        Mm-hmm

    16. JJJordan Jonas2:02:22

        ... that I can tap into and that is well-exercised. And I, and I just thought it would be really interesting to share with people through the story of my life and all these kind of fun stories, but also some of the keys to living a life well, really.

    17. TFTim Ferriss2:02:38

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JJJordan Jonas2:02:38

        But by building- ... resilience that'll help that. And what is interesting is you wanna build that resilience before you find yourself in the situation, 'cause once you find yourself in the situation, it's often a little late. And so the key is to come through hard times and trials. Anybody can get through it.

    19. TFTim Ferriss2:02:58

        Mm-hmm.

    20. JJJordan Jonas2:02:58

        But you wanna get through it and be positive and be putting light into the world. So it's me trying to help-

    21. TFTim Ferriss2:03:04

        Like your grandparents

    22. JJJordan Jonas2:03:04

        ... like my grandparents, like my dad. It's me trying to help people learn the lessons that I've learned that might help make their reservoir [laughs] of resilience, you know, fill up so that they're able to confront things as they come. It's a fun project. I got Harper Collins and I partnered up on it, and it'll be what I work on this year, so it's been fun starting.

    23. TFTim Ferriss2:03:26

        When's the tentative pub date plan? Any idea?

    24. JJJordan Jonas2:03:30

        No, early, like start of 2027, so-

    25. TFTim Ferriss2:03:33

        Yeah

    26. JJJordan Jonas2:03:33

        ... yeah.

    27. TFTim Ferriss2:03:33

        It's exciting.

    28. JJJordan Jonas2:03:34

        Yeah, it is exciting.

    29. TFTim Ferriss2:03:35

        Very exciting.

    30. JJJordan Jonas2:03:35

        First book, so it's a fun, new project.
27. 2:04:03 – 2:06:18

    The most overlooked part of the Serenity Prayer: "Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace."

    1. JJJordan Jonas2:04:03

       yeah. Fun.

    2. TFTim Ferriss2:04:03

       But, but you mentioned hardship, and earlier this morning we were chatting because I was, I was in Tennessee, and was with very, very skilled podcaster and kind human, Sean Ryan.

    3. JJJordan Jonas2:04:20

       Oh, yeah.

    4. TFTim Ferriss2:04:21

       And found this folded up piece of paper-

    5. JJJordan Jonas2:04:23

       [laughs]

    6. TFTim Ferriss2:04:23

       ... in the chair I was sitting in, and it ended up being a copy of the Serenity Prayer.

    7. JJJordan Jonas2:04:28

       Mm-hmm.

    8. TFTim Ferriss2:04:29

       And I have long been a fan of the Serenity Prayer, in part because it has echoes of and reinforces a lot of my reading in stoicism.

    9. JJJordan Jonas2:04:41

       Mm-hmm.

    10. TFTim Ferriss2:04:41

        What I didn't realize is that what I thought was the Serenity Prayer is actually just a small piece of it.

    11. JJJordan Jonas2:04:47

        Mm-hmm.

    12. TFTim Ferriss2:04:48

        Are you able to pull it up on your phone by chance?

    13. JJJordan Jonas2:04:50

        Yeah. It's a great prayer, so I'll read the full thing here. It says, "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." Then it goes on, "Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time, accepting hardships as the pathway to peace. Taking, as He did, this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it, trusting that He will make all things right if I surrender to His will, so that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with Him in the next." It has a lot of interesting concepts there. Most people are familiar with the start.

    14. TFTim Ferriss2:05:26

        The very beginning.

    15. JJJordan Jonas2:05:27

        But then it has the-

    16. TFTim Ferriss2:05:28

        Right

    17. JJJordan Jonas2:05:28

        ... the next one is, like, living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time. There was that lesson I got slapped with on Alone, where it's I'm worried about the future, and worried that-

    18. TFTim Ferriss2:05:36

        Mm-hmm

    19. JJJordan Jonas2:05:36

        ... ended up not coming. And then accepting hardship as the pathway to peace, as we were discussing this morning. Quite a profound bit of wisdom in that little prayer.

    20. TFTim Ferriss2:05:45

        There's a lot in there.

    21. JJJordan Jonas2:05:46

        Yeah.

    22. TFTim Ferriss2:05:46

        Right?

    23. JJJordan Jonas2:05:47

        It's been hitting home hard.

    24. TFTim Ferriss2:05:47

        It's just, I mean, some of my favorite maybe concepts, maxims from Buddhists, philosophy from stoicism. I mean, it is so neatly wrapped-

    25. JJJordan Jonas2:06:01

        Mm-hmm

    26. TFTim Ferriss2:06:01

        ... into the Serenity.

    27. JJJordan Jonas2:06:02

        Mm-hmm.

    28. TFTim Ferriss2:06:02

        Stoicism. It's so beautifully put, and it just kinda blew my mind [laughs] that-

    29. JJJordan Jonas2:06:08

        That's cool

    30. TFTim Ferriss2:06:08

        ... I had such a partial understanding of it.
28. 2:06:18 – 2:12:55

    The wilderness as political neutral ground and other parting thoughts.

    1. TFTim Ferriss2:06:18

       Jordan, people can find you at jordanjonas.com, J-O-N-A-S. They can find you on Instagram and YouTube @hobojordo. [both laugh] Makes me laugh every time I say it. Is there anything else you'd like to say? Anything you'd like to add, ask of my audience?

    2. JJJordan Jonas2:06:35

       We've all been noticing lately that the political division is ramping up more and more. I've been thinking a lot about the idea that so many people I know and love over the years have vastly diverging political opinions, but when you filter each other through politics, you're really likely to see people as avatars of an ideology rather than as fellow humans. And I see that right now. It seems like with immigration's the hot topic at the moment. Of course, I believe we should keep track of immigration and who comes in, and people who take advantage of the system shouldn't, because there's a social contract and a trust that has to be shared and maintained in a society. But at the same time, I have a personal belief based on my faith that I should help those in need when I have the ability. So in my personal life, I've chosen to take on, for example, in my case, a couple who were Russian asylum seekers, didn't wanna go to the front in Ukraine, so they, they fled. But I don't expect others to be forced via the government and taxation to live out my morality, and I don't judge or think ill of those who don't because I know there is a genuine sacrifice there. So I don't use politics to vicariously fulfill my moral obligations that I feel good about myself without having to make the personal sacrifices that a personally lived out ethic in the world requires. If I have the government fulfill my morality, it costs me nothing, and I can even find myself in the situation where I'm judging people who might actually practically be doing more to bear the actual burden of what I think is right in the world. So I think if more people approached their morality on a personal level actively, but also taking responsibility for it in their lives, the reality has a way of tempering the extremes, and it cuts in every direction. If someone on the right r- has a really strong opinion about abortion, it's like, foster children, adopt, support single moms. If someone on the left has a really strong opinion about wanting an open border, well, take in an immigrant family, support them using your own means and social connections. Get to know the complexity that comes when you do all that, and you'll find you'll actually understand people that don't because it is a sacrifice. And you'll be less judgmental and probably less self-righteous. So it's something I've been thinking about a little bit lately. Working that out is my favorite part of my spiritual path of Christianity. It's like, it, I don't have a law. Like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do usually. I'm supposed to filter, like, the real world through this ideal of love your neighbor as yourself, love the Lord your God. And in doing so, I'm constantly like, what does it mean to love your enemy? Like, it's not realistic. Like, what's it mean to give to everybody who asks? That's not realistic. But it makes me wrestle with this thing, and in that, it all comes to life. Whereas I could just, you know, I could have chosen to throw it out at some point and throw all that wrestling out with it, but I would have lost a lot of what provides meaning and value in my life also. So I don't know. W- working that out in your life is super valuable.

    3. TFTim Ferriss2:09:48

       It strikes me, I mean, this, this framing of wrestling with God.

    4. JJJordan Jonas2:09:53

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    5. TFTim Ferriss2:09:54

       And look, I know I'm getting over my skis here a bit, but it's the people who wrestle with X-

    6. JJJordan Jonas2:10:00

       Mm-hmm

    7. TFTim Ferriss2:10:01

       ... who foster a type of introspection that I think often leads to decisions that are better aligned with their truest of true values.

    8. JJJordan Jonas2:10:12

       Yeah, it gets a little dangerous when you know for sure.

    9. TFTim Ferriss2:10:15

       Yeah.

    10. JJJordan Jonas2:10:15

        [laughs] And, and-

    11. TFTim Ferriss2:10:17

        Yeah

    12. JJJordan Jonas2:10:17

        ... and so I embrace that struggle, I guess.

    13. TFTim Ferriss2:10:19

        Yeah, man, I don't know attribution, but it's like, uh, admire the seeker of the truth, beware of the person who has found the truth.

    14. JJJordan Jonas2:10:27

        Yeah, right, right, right.

    15. TFTim Ferriss2:10:27

        But I mean, there are times-

    16. JJJordan Jonas2:10:29

        Yep

    17. TFTim Ferriss2:10:29

        ... when it's like to have solid values or principles that you choose to live your life by, but at the same time to wrestle, right?

    18. JJJordan Jonas2:10:36

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    19. TFTim Ferriss2:10:37

        And to-

    20. JJJordan Jonas2:10:38

        I mean, it, yeah

    21. TFTim Ferriss2:10:38

        ... ask questions, you know, under what circumstances would this not be right? And to cross-examine. It's asking a lot of people, I recognize.

    22. JJJordan Jonas2:10:47

        Right.

    23. TFTim Ferriss2:10:47

        It's asking a lot of anyone.

    24. JJJordan Jonas2:10:48

        Right.

    25. TFTim Ferriss2:10:48

        But-

    26. JJJordan Jonas2:10:49

        'Cause it's easy to just have a formula to follow.

    27. TFTim Ferriss2:10:53

        Yeah.

    28. JJJordan Jonas2:10:53

        But, like, the f- the highest path is to, like, work it out. [laughs]

    29. TFTim Ferriss2:10:58

        Well, I admire how you have tried to work it out.

    30. JJJordan Jonas2:11:02

        Oh, thank you.

Episode duration: 2:13:07