Tim FerrissDerek Sivers — Finding Paths Less Traveled, Taking Giant Leaps, and Picking the Right “Game of Life”
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,002 words- 0:00 – 0:58
Start
- TFTim Ferriss
[upbeat music] Should we kick this party off? What do you think?
- DSDerek Sivers
Ready.
- TFTim Ferriss
All right, so I thought we would start, first of all, cheers.
- DSDerek Sivers
Cheers.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yes.
- DSDerek Sivers
Thanks to Matt.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yes. Matt Mullenweg, thank you for the scotch blend, which we shall enjoy here. So I'll take a sip first.
- DSDerek Sivers
Ooh.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm. We have scotch, we have Go Go Gadget black tea.
- DSDerek Sivers
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
What is this called again? [laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
Go Go Goa.
- TFTim Ferriss
Go Go Goa. [laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah, Go Go Goa.
- TFTim Ferriss
It's so good to us. Yeah.
- DSDerek Sivers
Go. So we have Go Go Goa.
- TFTim Ferriss
Like Goa, India, you know, the region.
- DSDerek Sivers
Yes.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. [laughs] So this is otherwise known, I do have a backup of Diet Coke in case, this is Podcaster Speedball. [laughs] So I expect this is gonna be a fantastic episode.
- 0:58 – 5:33
The Derek Sivers School of Enough.
- TFTim Ferriss
And for those who are not watching or those who may not have video in front of them, we have two different sized scotch glasses. And if you were to walk into Derek's [laughs] kitchen, you would find a wide assortment of glasses, namely one other glass which-
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah, there are only three glasses
- TFTim Ferriss
... which is yet larger.
- DSDerek Sivers
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
It's like a Russian nesting doll of three separate glasses. And those are the only glasses you have in the house.
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah. And I didn't buy any of them, they were just-
- TFTim Ferriss
Please explain more.
- DSDerek Sivers
Oh, God. [laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
Because you walk the talk of certain types of minimalism. There are those out there who may not believe some of it, I'm just saying, or may be skeptical. Ha- have a healthy skepticism.
- DSDerek Sivers
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
I'm telling you guys, he's got three glasses in his kitchen. [laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
And this is my only pair of pants. And yeah, so these three glasses, I don't even think about it because I, I just think about having what's enough.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- DSDerek Sivers
Right? So there's only me and my kid here.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
And so you come over and you say, "Okay, let's make some scotch." [laughs] And you're like, "Do you have any?" I was like, "No, that, that's all I got."
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
"I just have these glasses. And honestly, I don't even know where they came from."
- TFTim Ferriss
But they work.
- DSDerek Sivers
They work. And this is enough. And these little bamboo cups I got for my kids so that he wouldn't break them.
- TFTim Ferriss
So I have a feeling we will come back to this in a sense because as a foreshadowing for people who are listening, if you have not read The Paradox of Choice, Barry Schwartz, he talks about maximizers and satisficers. So I think we'll probably come back to this in a bunch of different ways. But suffice to say, the embodiment of minimalism. You also have two very nice suits that act as your sort of outside in the world attire.
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
Which makes sense to me.
- DSDerek Sivers
And only two. It's, again, it's this idea of enough. It's like I wear junk, basically home pajamas. I think of them as pajamas. The, the, the big baggy T-shirt that somebody handed you at a conference.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
And you would never wear that outside the house. But yeah, Michael Brown, with an E, in London. When I lived in London right before COVID hit, I thought, "You know, I'm living here by Savile Row in London. I'm about to leave England forever. I'm gonna get a custom-made suit." So I looked at, um, oh, what was his name? Sartorial Talks. It's an interesting YouTube channel about somebody diving deep into like the, the craft of fine-
- TFTim Ferriss
Tailoring. Yeah
- DSDerek Sivers
... yeah, tailoring. So he recommended this guy, Michael Brown in London. So yeah, I went to Michael Brown and he said, "What would you like?" I said, "You're the expert. You know, just dress me."
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
So he told me what to wear, and I do. [laughs]
- 5:33 – 10:24
Scuba diving in Iceland.
- TFTim Ferriss
So let's, let's start with a story now. And I have not heard this story because you began telling me and I said, "No, I don't want to hear it."
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs] I said, "Let's save it." Scuba diving. That'll be my-
- DSDerek Sivers
Scuba diving?
- TFTim Ferriss
Scuba diving. That'll be my cue.
- DSDerek Sivers
And what it taught me about empathy and identity.
- TFTim Ferriss
Amazing. I'll listen to the TED Talk. [laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
[laughs] Oh, God. All right, here we go.
- TFTim Ferriss
I'm sold. [laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
So I was in Iceland and I never had any intention to go scuba diving, but I was at that place in Thingvellir Park, if you've ever been there, where the two continental plates meet, the American continental plate meets the Eurasian continental plate and there's this deep fissure in the ground but it's crystal clear water so you can see all the way down. I'm like, "Ooh, I wanna go in there."
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
It just looks like avian spring water, you know, poured over rocks with nothing clouding the water.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right.
- DSDerek Sivers
So I was in Iceland for a month, so I went to take scuba diving lessons. And the instructor was great. So it's dive.is and at the time it was just him in his basement, and it was me and one other guy learning scuba diving. So we did the practice in the swimming pool, and we did all the theoretical stuff. You learned to scuba?
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- DSDerek Sivers
Okay.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
And so the swimming pool was great, and I love the fact that it's calm, that you don't need to panic about holding your breath. It's just s- slow and meditative. But then the first time we went into the cold ocean, and to be clear, I had to wear one of those giant dry suits. You're like, you're like a spaceman with four-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah
- DSDerek Sivers
... layers of rubber and, you know, stuff over the rubber. So it's very claustrophobic. And then I get into the water and it gets down to about 20 meters and I'm just like, "Oh God, do I hate this. I hate, I wanna, like, I, I need to go. I need to, I just wanna go back at home. I wanna be on the internet. I wanna be emailing my friend. I wanna talk to my friend. I, I just wanna... You know, I, I just, I gotta get out of here." So I rapped on his tank and I went up to the top.
- TFTim Ferriss
You pointed. You pointed to go up.
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah. And I was just like, I tore off my mask and I was just like, I said, "I don't wanna... " No, I said, "I'm just gonna go. You guys go ahead. I'm gonna wait on the side, uh, there. I'll ju- you go ahead. I'll, I'll just wait." And he was so sweet. He was so cool. He looked at me and just stopped for a second and he said, "Hold on a second." He said, "It's a really nice day today." He said, "Look around. Look at those mountains." And then he goes, "See? It's a nice day today." He said, "Yeah, look, look at what a, look at, at what a beautiful area we're in right now. If you were to leave now," he said, "I know you're flying back in seven days. If you were to leave now, you wouldn't be able to complete the training and you wouldn't get your certification. I know you don't want that." He said, "Just relax for a second. It's all right." And so I just relaxed for a second. You know, you inflate your BCD so you're just buoyant and you float.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- DSDerek Sivers
And I went, [sighs] "All right. Yeah. What was I scared of?" So I went, "Okay, I'm ready." And so we go back down and I completed it and it was great. It was no problem. And I love being underwater. It's wonderful. So that was the completion of my training. The next day was my first official dive. So we're there with a dozen other people that have flown to Iceland from around the world, including this couple from Germany that were bragging about how many dives they've done. "We've done over 100 dives."
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
And so they were acting like know-it-alls, but then they're like, "Oh, dry suit. We've never done dry suit before."
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
And so they're getting into dry suit and yeah, it's-
- TFTim Ferriss
Ruh-roh.
- DSDerek Sivers
[grunts] It's, it's tough, you know?
- 10:24 – 17:15
Categories we apply to ourselves and others.
- TFTim Ferriss
babe. I'm out of here.
- DSDerek Sivers
I've accidentally missed one step-
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm
- DSDerek Sivers
... in the storytelling of this that I should have included, is the night in between those two days, I went home that night thinking, "What the fuck? I think I just had a panic attack." Like, I'm not one of those people.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
Like, I have no respect for people who have panic attacks. Because usually panic attacks to me, I think of, like, people who are just like, "Oh no," like, "my cake is late. I'm gonna die." And they freak out over shallow little things.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- DSDerek Sivers
And it seems to me like they have no perspective on life. So then I have no respect for that kind of silly panic, right? But I had just panicked, and it was involuntary. And so, like, that night I had this moment of just like, "Wow, what, what does that mean? That am I a panic attack person now? Have I changed categories from a not panic attack person to a panic attack person?" I just kind of fell asleep with no, you know, answers to that. So then, yeah, then the next day had this thing happen with the German couple and I feel like that experience taught me two kinds of empathy. That we categorize people.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
Like I just said.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right.
- DSDerek Sivers
The type of person who has a panic attack. And we think of a category of person that's, say, like depressed, fat, homeless, divorced, bankrupt, and you think, "I would never be those things. I'm not that kind of person." But I thought, "Wow, like, a lot of these things are involuntary." It's not like somebody chooses to be depressed.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
And I realized I had been unfairly categorizing people the same way I had unfairly categorized panic attack people, 'cause now I am one, right?
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs] Yeah.
- DSDerek Sivers
I've had that. Addiction, right? Like somebody who said they would never be an addict, then they find themselves addicted to something that seemed harmless at first, and they have to admit, "Oh my God, I'm an addict." But then I realized that Someday these categories might be me or anybody else if you're, you know, categorizing people. This might be you. But then the thing that happened on the second day where there's another category that we don't think we could be, which is like hero, rescuer-
- TFTim Ferriss
Hmm
- DSDerek Sivers
... leader-
- TFTim Ferriss
Right
- DSDerek Sivers
... athlete. [laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
Things with a positive connotation.
- DSDerek Sivers
Millionaire.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right.
- DSDerek Sivers
Some people in the past few years have become millionaires, which is something that they held in a different category and thought, "I'd never be that," and suddenly they're, "You have to admit, you know, I'm a multimillionaire now."
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- DSDerek Sivers
It's a category. So I've realized that we can... Even those categories can be involuntary.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
That you can suddenly be a rescuer even if you never intended to be one-
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm
- DSDerek Sivers
... just through the power of imitation. So yeah, you can deliberately step into these roles-
- 17:15 – 22:59
Derek’s people compass.
- DSDerek Sivers
to keep calling yourself that.
- TFTim Ferriss
So I may be skipping ahead because I do like mixing tangents.
- DSDerek Sivers
Great.
- TFTim Ferriss
But that's the nature of conversation, especially when you have Go Go Gadget tea and scotch involved. [laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
So we were talking about this the other night at dinner. We use language. We're creatures of language. I mean, part of the reason that we've become such a dominant pest on the planet [laughs] is our ability to use concepts and abstraction.
- DSDerek Sivers
Hmm.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right? And you'd mentioned at one point thinking of yourself after entrepreneur as a writer. How did you make that switch?
- DSDerek Sivers
Looking to your heroes.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
I call it my people compass. That, like, if you're not sure which way to go, you can ask yourself, "Well, who do I admire? Who do I like?"
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
So for me, this was like, as I was not sure what direction I wanted to go, like I, I am an entrepreneur and I'm a programmer and I'm an author. I actually thought about it in that order. Maybe programmer first, entrepreneur. And then writing seemed to be something I was doing as just, like, a waste product. [laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs] A metabolite of your other-
- DSDerek Sivers
Right
- TFTim Ferriss
... focus. [laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
It's like, it was like, it was like, and as I'm doing my thing, if I learn some lessons, there.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right.
- DSDerek Sivers
I just put them into writing.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- DSDerek Sivers
But then I noticed that all of my heroes were authors.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm.
- DSDerek Sivers
These were the people I looked up to the most, and that helped me realize my values. Like, it helped reveal my values. So ultimately, like, we want to be our ideal selves, right?
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
And I think that your heroes are your idealized self, right? It's kinda, that's why we idolize certain people is we want-
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm
- DSDerek Sivers
... to be like them. So that kinda reveals what your values are. So in that moment I went, "Oh my God, that's right. In my heart I'm actually more of an author." And programming is fun. I love programming. I love what it empowers, and I think we're gonna talk about that later. And I'm not an entrepreneur anymore. So in that moment I was like, "That's it. I'm really an author now, aren't I? Wow, that feels weird to me. I never thought of myself as an author." So the reason I call it a people compass is it's related to when you're not sure what business to start.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
Like, a lot of people are, you know, they're looking at the many different options right now. The way I think about it is asking yourself, "What kind of people do I like being around?"
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- 22:59 – 59:39
How to secure your tech independence.
- TFTim Ferriss
Okay. So, so many directions we can go here. I think you alluded to it, so why not hop to it? Programming, the empowerment that can provide. Let's talk about escaping the cloud. [laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
All right.
- TFTim Ferriss
Or broadly speaking, tech independence.
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
And to set the stage for folks, we were walking down the street here in Wellington, beautiful Wellington, New Ze-
- DSDerek Sivers
Lovely Central Wellington
- TFTim Ferriss
... New Zealand. Well, yeah, the central area is a l- a little bit like Haight Ashbury in some respects, but for the people that get the reference. But all in all, beautiful city. I mean, lots of hiking trails. Shockingly similar to Northern California.
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
I mean, I felt like I was flying into SFO. You have Monterey pine here. You have eucalyptus, which we both borrowed from Australia. You have nasturtiums. A lot of the vegetation here is similar. It's really nostalgic and kind of eerie in a way to be here, because I feel like I'm back in Northern California.
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
It's like being in a time machine. In any case, we were walking around, not in the, on the nature side of things, but downtown, and I said, "You know, I'd love to ask you about cybersecurity." And I said, "Let's say," and I'm not gonna use anyone's name, but somebody who's very technical and hyper-paranoid. I was like, "Let's say they're a 10. Let's say your mom is a one." Not to make assumptions about your mom, but I will.
- DSDerek Sivers
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
Where do you fall on the cybersecurity spectrum? And that opened up a ve- I think fun discussion. We chatted. You also then wrote in your diary about it the next morning.
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah, 'cause I'm slow like that. You'll ask me something like that, and in the moment as we're walking down Courtney Place, I'll give some half-ass answer. And then later that night I'm like, "Ooh, I got a better answer now."
- TFTim Ferriss
I mean, I'll push back a little bit. Yeah, slow is relative. I mean, I think that you were very coherent, and you thought about it before you launched off into some type of, of monologue, which you didn't. It was a conversation, but you then refined it the next morning.
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
So let's talk about this because you gave a couple of, I wouldn't say recommendations. You, you described a few things you do personally that I found very interesting.
- DSDerek Sivers
Mm-hmm.
- TFTim Ferriss
One of which was you don't use the cloud.
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
Which I think will get a lot of people's attention because, in part, I think there are many people who feel, myself included, that there's something uncomfortable about it. But I assume, since I'm non-technical, there really just is not an alternative, right? But there is part of me that's very privacy sensitive-
- DSDerek Sivers
Mm-hmm
- TFTim Ferriss
... and is fundamentally uncomfortable with having all this stuff, all this miscellanea, all these impulsive, ridiculous group chats and whatever backed up somewhere else-
- DSDerek Sivers
Mm-hmm
- TFTim Ferriss
... for a lot of reasons.
- DSDerek Sivers
Your phone book, your calendar.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, all of that.
- DSDerek Sivers
All these things, yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
All of that. There's something deeply uncomfortable about it, and yet I use the off-the-shelf tools because everyone else does, and I just assume there are no alternatives-
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah
- 59:39 – 1:11:21
The un-optimized life.
- TFTim Ferriss
You know, there's so many options here for where to go next. I think one I'd actually like to talk about is the un-optimized life, if you'd be open to going there next. What do you think?
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
All right, let's do it.
- DSDerek Sivers
London.
- TFTim Ferriss
London?
- DSDerek Sivers
2019.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs] Ooh, this is gonna be good.
- DSDerek Sivers
I took my boy-
- TFTim Ferriss
Tuck in, kids
- DSDerek Sivers
... on the train from Oxford to London, and it was one of those days that looked like it might rain, it might not. So we made a plan on the train. I said, "Okay, if it's raining, we're gonna go to the museum, and if it's not raining, we're going to the zoo." And he said, "Okay." So we got to Marylebone Station in Central London. We walked out, and he said, "You know what, Dad? I don't wanna go to the zoo or the museum." I said, "What do you wanna do?" He said, "Let's just walk around." "You sure?" "Yeah." "Okay." We just walked around. So at every intersection, he said, "Let's go this way." I said, "Okay." And so he just led the way through London that day. We walked around for eight hours. So at one point, he was jumping around park benches and met these kids from Croatia, where they got into a little tickling match.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
At another time, in, like, a little alleyway, he saw this huge cardboard box. It was, like, almost as big as he is, and he got into this cardboard box and wore it like a turtle shell. So he walked around London in a cardboard box for, like, an hour, and everybody would do double takes looking at him, and he just felt so cool in the cardboard box. And then at some point, we found ourselves right in front of the West End musical Wicked
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm
- DSDerek Sivers
And the show was about to begin in 10 minutes. And I said, "Do you have any tickets? What are, what are the best tickets you have?" And they had eighth row center tickets. They had two left. So we're like, "Yeah, let's do it. Let's go see Wicked." So he left his cardboard box there. We went in and saw Wicked, and he, at one point he whispered to me, he said, "Dad, I like the girl next to me." And I said, "Okay." And later I look over and he's holding her hand.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
He held her hand. They, they held hands. And so show was over, we go home, and I tuck him into bed that night and I said, "Did you have a good day?" And he said, "I had a great day." And I said, "All right. So what was your favorite thing today?" And he thinks for a bit and then he said, "The cardboard box."
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
And I was just like, I marveled at that. I was just thinking later, like, "If I would've planned and said, 'No, we're going to the museum. Come on, it's a g- it's an important museum for you to know,' then he wouldn't have had this un-optimized experience and f- stumbled into the cardboard box."
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
And so of course, you know, I think about life and I think about, like, that day as a metaphor for how we tend to make plans. Because plans seem to be the th- the tool we use to make the most of our time.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
But that doesn't always make sense, does it? Because, like, as you go through life, you keep getting new information moment to moment that helps you make the, the best decision for that moment, not what you thought would be the best decision earlier-
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm
- DSDerek Sivers
... when you made the plan, which was a prediction. So I think about, like, for example, this stupid house I'm in right now. [laughs] So this is my stupid house, everybody. I don't like this house.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
But here I am.
- TFTim Ferriss
I would never guess based on your assortment of-
- DSDerek Sivers
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
... matching plateware.
- DSDerek Sivers
Fine. [laughs] Yeah. Right? How much energy I've clearly put into this house-
- 1:11:21 – 1:28:10
The meaning of Derek’s upcoming book, Useful Not True.
- TFTim Ferriss
All right, I'm gonna combine this, maybe another Sivers-ism. It's not really a Sivers-ism, but in terms of how Professor Sivers operates in the world, useful, not true. We've been talking a, a bit about this. I wanted to save a lot of it for this conversation with the mics.
- DSDerek Sivers
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
Where should we start with this?
- DSDerek Sivers
All right. So again, I'm addressing the audience for a second.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
So, you know, I figure I'm coming on the podcast. This isn't just one of our random conversations.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- DSDerek Sivers
This is for the audience. There's a reason we're hitting record.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
It's for them.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yep.
- DSDerek Sivers
We can talk freely without hitting record.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
So I had to think, what's the most useful thing I could share with your audience that I've learned, like, in the last seven years since we last spoke? The thing that's made the biggest difference in my life, a superpower, a, a big, huge change. So to me, it's been, in short, skepticism. So if you wonder why I'm so happy, why I'm thriving, why I seem to be doing well, to me, it's a lot of my happiness comes from this worldview that is radical doubt. It's skepticism. And so I'm gonna give this the shorthand of calling it useful not true, but the visual for it is that moment at the end of The Matrix movie when Neo realizes, like, those aren't bullets. This is just code.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
Remember all the bullets come his way?
- TFTim Ferriss
Yes.
- DSDerek Sivers
And he's like, "Oh, wait, right. Like, none of these rules apply to me."
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
That's deep skepticism. It's empowering. It's liberating. And so what I'm gonna do for a few minutes-
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm
- DSDerek Sivers
... including little stories, is to play Morpheus to help emancipate the listeners.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
So yes, I call this useful not true, but it-
- TFTim Ferriss
Preach. Preach.
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah. There we go.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
Number one. So, okay, I'm gonna tell you the four bits first, and we'll use that to kind of make sure that we come back to this. So, like, number one, almost nothing is objectively true.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
Number two, beliefs are placebos. So you gotta believe whatever works for you now. Number three, rules and norms are arbitrary games that can be changed. I'm preaching to the converted-
- 1:28:10 – 1:47:21
The problem with moral relativism and other -isms.
- TFTim Ferriss
So there's a lot of this that I agree with. I also wonder how we avoid, maybe we don't, but sinking into a moral relativism where everything is okay-
- DSDerek Sivers
Mm-hmm
- TFTim Ferriss
... on some level because nothing is objectively good or bad, therefore general mutilation of, like, 12-year-old girls or whatever it is is totally fine in that culture because the culture is different.
- DSDerek Sivers
Right.
- TFTim Ferriss
Therefore, I'm not going to object to anything like that-
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah
- TFTim Ferriss
... because I'm not the arbiter of universal truth. Therefore, like, everything is okay in different cultures, different places, different households because everything is relative. How do you think about that?
- DSDerek Sivers
I defer to Sam Harris.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs] Okay.
- DSDerek Sivers
Did he ever talk about the moral landscape on your show?
- TFTim Ferriss
I don't think we've discussed it-
- DSDerek Sivers
Okay
- TFTim Ferriss
... explicitly, so if you wouldn't mind elaborating.
- DSDerek Sivers
Probably the best elaboration is to tell people to go search for Sam Harris moral landscape.
- TFTim Ferriss
All right.
- DSDerek Sivers
The best TED Talk I've ever seen.
- TFTim Ferriss
Okay.
- DSDerek Sivers
Ever. That is the one. Sam Harris, the moral landscape so beautifully summarizes this idea of judging something morally, objectively-
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm
- DSDerek Sivers
... based on individual well-being and-
- TFTim Ferriss
So utilitarianism, like the greatest good for the greatest number of people type stuff.
- DSDerek Sivers
Probably. Yeah. He says it better than that.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, I don't want to sp-
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
I don't want to speak for Sam.
- DSDerek Sivers
But yeah, go find that talk. That's kind of my intro.
- TFTim Ferriss
Well, I'm curious. There's, I think, a tension sometimes in my mind between living a self-authored, unorthodox life-
- DSDerek Sivers
Mm-hmm
- TFTim Ferriss
... that does not conform to convention for the sake of conforming to convention, while also trying to have some type of consistent moral compass.
- DSDerek Sivers
Mm-hmm.
- 1:47:21 – 1:56:55
Giant leaps.
- DSDerek Sivers
This is my belief now."
- TFTim Ferriss
So for folks listening who may want, who would find it helpful to have a structured way to cross-examine their own beliefs and maybe take an opposing stance and then gather evidence, there's something called The Work by Byron Katie-
- DSDerek Sivers
Oh, yeah
- TFTim Ferriss
... which is very much this, and I've found personally very useful.
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
Super, super useful. You teased, you didn't really tease, you, you weren't sure whether to open the door or not. Giant leaps, so with the understanding that what you do is not necessarily what you recommend for all people-
- DSDerek Sivers
[laughs] You're going there
- TFTim Ferriss
... what are, what are, what are [laughs] ... Is there an example of a giant leap-
- DSDerek Sivers
Well-
- TFTim Ferriss
... that might make for a story?
- DSDerek Sivers
... is there? Um.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah. I, um, I renounced my US citizenship in 2011-
- TFTim Ferriss
That's a big one
- DSDerek Sivers
... as a way of doing something to... I, I deliberately burned the ships.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- DSDerek Sivers
So I have to explain this metaphor because I've found that most people haven't heard this tale.
- TFTim Ferriss
All right.
- DSDerek Sivers
But we have all heard of burning the bridges.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
So you burn the bridge when you destroy a friendship, a connection with somebody, the bridge between you and another person. But to burn the ships is a reference to some, I think, like a Spanish conquistador that had headed off with three ships to South America somewhere, and when he landed, there were thousands of Aztecs waiting to kill them, and they only had a few hundred men. Of course, I'm messing up the details here. But he turned to one of his men and said, "We must not retreat. Burn the ships. The men need to know that we cannot go back. We must go forward."
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
So I wanted to challenge myself to go forward and not go back.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
And after 40 years in America, I s- felt like, all right, I spent the first 40 years of my life here. I want to spend the next 40 out. But what I found is whenever things got tough, I kept wanting to retreat back to my comfortable California.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
So I thought, I need to burn the ships. So I did.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs] Okay. I'm laughing because there's so many rabbit holes we could go down here. I'm gonna, I'm going to use my, my creative license as a host of this podcast to avoid most of them. But are you glad you did that?
- DSDerek Sivers
For years, it was my, one of my biggest mistakes in life.
- TFTim Ferriss
Made it hard to visit, like, family and friends in the US, right?
- 1:56:55 – 2:05:20
Finding and asking mentors for help.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. So let's segue from personal growth to mentors.
- DSDerek Sivers
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
'Cause many people have had mentors. Many people seek mentors. Many people pine after mentors. And if they could only get ahold of Person X-
- DSDerek Sivers
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
... and have a cup of tea or a coffee, pick the brain.
- DSDerek Sivers
Pick the brain. [laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
Have, pick the brain. Have a-
- DSDerek Sivers
So appealing
- TFTim Ferriss
... have a meal.
- DSDerek Sivers
Who would not wanna have their brain picked?
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. So how would you suggest people ask mentors for help?
- DSDerek Sivers
Here's what I do. I have three mentors. So anytime I think, anytime I hit a little dilemma in my life, I write a really good description of my dilemma before I reach out to them, 'cause I don't wanna waste their time, right?
- TFTim Ferriss
Right.
- DSDerek Sivers
My mentors are VIPs. I don't wanna waste a minute of their time. So, so first I write a really good description of the problem, and then I summarize it. I summarize the context, the problem. I summarize my options, and I summarize my thoughts, because I gotta make this succinct. I don't wanna send somebody a 20-page long email. So I have to make this as succinct as possible.
- TFTim Ferriss
What does that in practice look like?
- DSDerek Sivers
Oh-
- TFTim Ferriss
A half- half page, page?
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah, half page. Like it's like bullet points for everything instead-
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm
- DSDerek Sivers
... of paragraphs, right?
- TFTim Ferriss
Yep.
- DSDerek Sivers
As succinct as I can. And then before I send it to them, I try to predict what this person would say.
- TFTim Ferriss
So each of those three?
- DSDerek Sivers
Right, right, what anybody would say to this, but yeah, what this mentor would say, what that mentor would say. I know the way this guy thinks. I've read all his books. I know the way... We've talked a lot. I know what he would say. So then I internalize that, and I address those points that I'm predicting they would say. I'm gonna address those in advance, again, to not waste their time.
- TFTim Ferriss
When you say address them, what do you mean by that?
- DSDerek Sivers
Kinda like how you asked... I said something five minutes ago, and you asked me a question like, "Can you give me an example of that?" Or, "How do you know this?"
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, I see. Yeah.
- DSDerek Sivers
So it's like, "Okay, I knew you were gonna ask that," so, you know.
- TFTim Ferriss
Here's my follow-up.
- DSDerek Sivers
Right.
- 2:05:20 – 2:09:36
Games.
- TFTim Ferriss
I feel like we should do two things.
- DSDerek Sivers
Okay.
- TFTim Ferriss
I feel like we should get a, a slight refill-
- DSDerek Sivers
Mm-hmm
- TFTim Ferriss
... on the scotch, and then maybe talk about games, the games we play.
- DSDerek Sivers
All right.
- TFTim Ferriss
Getting good at games, things of this type. So a little bathroom and then scotch break? What do you think?
- DSDerek Sivers
Great.
- TFTim Ferriss
For people wondering, we just came back from our bathroom/break/scotch refill. This is, I would say, very similar to a lot of our conversations.
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
Like, it's not that different-
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah
- TFTim Ferriss
... from a lot of our conversations, but I do appreciate how much thought you give to deliverables for the audience. Makes a big fucking difference, honestly.
- DSDerek Sivers
The greater good thing, I think about making an interesting conversation for you, but then there's, like, how many people that listen, so it's like I try to-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. You're good at holding both
- DSDerek Sivers
... looking at you, but I'm thinking of them, no offense. [laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs] Wow, we could, we could unpack that for a while. [laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
[laughs] All right. You and your euphemisms. All right.
- TFTim Ferriss
Dark Mirror, here we come. Uh, cheers, man.
- DSDerek Sivers
Cheers.
- TFTim Ferriss
So nice to see you.
- DSDerek Sivers
Thank you for suggesting... Oh, thanks again, Matt.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
[laughs] I don't know why we think Matt's there.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. [laughs] Matt's got the, Matt, Matt's got the fuzzy hat on-
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah
- TFTim Ferriss
... otherwise known as the boom mic. Uh, ah, it is nice. All right. So we're all playing games, right? And I think it's a matter of knowing which games you're playing outside of some basics. You got shelter, you got food, you know, you cover some of the lower rungs of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Beyond that, we're all playing different games. So knowing which games you're playing, then choosing the game you wanna play, these are, these are important topics. Why don't I just hand the mic over-
- DSDerek Sivers
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
... and let, let you talk about how you think about this kind of thing, playing games. Maybe not the proper tee up, but I'm gonna go with it.
- DSDerek Sivers
No, that's what it is.
- 2:09:36 – 2:14:38
The wisdom of quitting when you’re ahead.
- DSDerek Sivers
And the temptation to keep playing even though the rewards are done, isn't that the definition of addiction?
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
And so it, yeah, it's continuing a behavior even though it's not rewarding you anymore.
- TFTim Ferriss
Hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
So to me, that's what making money is.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
It's a game that I've decided to stop playing because I got enough. But this could apply to anything. Somebody who wanted to be a successful musician... Oh, there's a great, Gotye.
- TFTim Ferriss
Gotye.
- DSDerek Sivers
I, I think that's how you pronounce it. You didn't have to cut me out, you know.
- TFTim Ferriss
Oh, yeah.
- DSDerek Sivers
Now you're just somebody that I used to know.
- TFTim Ferriss
Uh.
- DSDerek Sivers
That guy, one hit wonder, Gotye from Australia, that was his stage name.
- TFTim Ferriss
Uh-huh.
- DSDerek Sivers
And he did a beautiful thing as he has retired that stage name. He's like, "There. Did it. I had a massive number one hit. I don't wanna keep singing that song for the rest of my life."
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
There is no more Gotye. So now he's just back to his legal name, and he's the drummer and singer in a band called The Basics, and he retired Gotye. He stepped away.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
Jacinda Ardern, the most recent prime minister of New Zealand-
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm
- DSDerek Sivers
... after six years felt that she had had enough, and she quit. Instead of going through the process of running for re-election, she quit kind of midterm and just said, "That's enough. I'm feeling full. I'm feeling spent." Serena Williams, I think-
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm
- DSDerek Sivers
... you know, quit instead of going longer than she should've. She quit after, I think, 27 years, and, like, that was enough. She hit her point that was enough. Cameron Diaz, I suddenly, after watching There's Something About Mary-
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm
- DSDerek Sivers
... with my kid, said, "I wonder what ever happened to her."
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
And I looked up and saw that she was the fifth highest grossing actress in America, the highest paid Hollywood actress over 40, and then she'd had enough. And so she just quit to do other things.
- TFTim Ferriss
I should interview her.
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah. Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
I love those stories. I mean, she would probably not say yes, but I mean, those stories are fascinating to me.
- 2:14:38 – 2:18:24
Why would Derek — never in need of external validation — seek fame?
- TFTim Ferriss
I'm excited to dig into this because there's so many facets that I want to hear your thoughts on. So first, I wanna pick up on something that I did not know, although I guess looking at your history makes some strange sense. But wanting to be famous, you mentioned. You strike me as someone, and I mean this in a very neutral way, and this is also why I asked you the other day at lunch, I was like, "What makes you emotional?"
- DSDerek Sivers
Hmm.
- TFTim Ferriss
You strike me as a very thoughtful, but in some ways unemotional person.
- DSDerek Sivers
Wow.
- TFTim Ferriss
Not in a bad way.
- DSDerek Sivers
Okay.
- TFTim Ferriss
But, like, you're not... You don't have volatile emotions.
- DSDerek Sivers
No.
- TFTim Ferriss
You don't have strong displays of emotion. And that could be a misread. I admire that about you, by the way.
- DSDerek Sivers
Thanks.
- TFTim Ferriss
Just the general, at least from the outside, maybe it's like the duck on the pond, right? Calm on the, on the top and, like, kicking like hell underneath. I don't know. But you have a thoughtful, almost serene contentedness almost all the time that I interact with you. That is my perception.
- DSDerek Sivers
That's true.
- TFTim Ferriss
And that's remarkable, right? And you seem to have a very, very, very low need for external validation. That's my perception.
- DSDerek Sivers
Yes, that's true.
- TFTim Ferriss
So that makes it odd, or for me to hear you say, "I want to be famous," because I'm like, "What do you get out of fame?"
- DSDerek Sivers
Um, well, then but let's-
- TFTim Ferriss
If that's your constitution? Like, it's, it's-
- DSDerek Sivers
Formerly. Okay. So wait, you know what? Something interesting came up. Okay, we won't let that go.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
But check this out.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah.
- DSDerek Sivers
You and I have thought for hundreds or thousands of hours about the concept of success.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yep.
- DSDerek Sivers
What it means to be successful. I'm 53 now. I have spent, whatever, almost 40 years, or let's say like, you know, 35 years thinking about being successful. Just a few weeks ago in a podcast interview, somebody asked me, "What's your definition of success?" And I said, "To me, it's just achieving what you set out to do. That's your personal success for that thing. I think it's very individual." And he said, "Nothing to do with what other people think of you?" And I went, "Other people think?" I was like, "No. What, what?" And he goes, "Yeah, I think for a lot of people, they would define their success through the eyes of others." I was like, "Why? Why would anybody... " And he said, "Wait, you seriously have never considered that?" And I was like, "Wow."
- TFTim Ferriss
He's barking up the wrong tree. [laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah. [laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
He's got the wrong guy. [laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
In 35 years, I had never, ever, ever for a single millisecond considered success as something that would be seen through someone else's eyes. To me, success has always been hyper personal.
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah. So how does fame fit into that?
- DSDerek Sivers
I think a little bit like the things that you talked about being competitive, like your personal tendency to be competitive.
- 2:18:24 – 2:21:00
What makes Derek so darned interesting?
- DSDerek Sivers
hear it is to-
- TFTim Ferriss
Hmm. Someone was asking me recently because I was describing how excited I was to see you. We haven't hung out in so long.
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
It's been so fun to hang out.
- DSDerek Sivers
12 years. Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
God, it's crazy because we also interact virtually. I was describing to someone that I was excited to see you, and they asked what made you interesting, or I don't think they said unusual. It's like, "Oh, so what, what's, what's he like? What's, what's so interesting about him?" And I said, "Well, part of what's interesting is I don't think I've met anyone who has the combination, outside of you, who has the combination of seemingly no need for external validation, yet being a good performer."
- DSDerek Sivers
Hmm.
- TFTim Ferriss
Right? Like you are-
- DSDerek Sivers
Interesting
- TFTim Ferriss
... you're a ringleader in a circus.
- DSDerek Sivers
Right. [laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
Musician. You're really good at imitation, voices, et cetera. You enjoy, you seem to enjoy performing.
- DSDerek Sivers
Mm-hmm.
- TFTim Ferriss
Almost everyone, and I do mean almost everyone, and I'm only saying almost [laughs] because it seems too absolutist to say everyone, but it might be everyone, who I know who is a really good performer, it could be comedy, it could be acting, it could be fill in the blank, had that drive to become excellent doing that because they, they loved or needed or both external validation.
- DSDerek Sivers
Hmm.
- TFTim Ferriss
I think it's a very uncommon combination, which is why I was asking you about it.
- DSDerek Sivers
Hmm. Maybe it is because I just had that life shift where it's like I did it to a certain point. I didn't get as famous as I thought I could. But I was successful enough
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm
- DSDerek Sivers
... like I bought my house in Woodstock with the money I made touring.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
You know, like by my own definition, I was a pretty successful musician.
- TFTim Ferriss
Mm-hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
And then just at the time that that was getting boring, I accidentally started CD Baby and I just threw all my attention into serving musicians. So I think that flipped something in my head where it's like, I no longer need the attention for me. I no longer, I don't need any more attention, I don't need any more validation. Now I don't even need any more money. I really don't need anything from anybody. But yeah, you're right, I still am socially skilled. I know how to get on stage and talk
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, you're good at it
- DSDerek Sivers
... yeah
- TFTim Ferriss
... really good at it.
- DSDerek Sivers
Thank you.
- TFTim Ferriss
You're a combination of elements that I don't usually see together. It's very
- 2:21:00 – 2:30:06
Has Derek always been a satisficer?
- TFTim Ferriss
rare.
- DSDerek Sivers
Am I blushing?
- TFTim Ferriss
You're blushing. [laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
[laughs]
- TFTim Ferriss
Could be the scotch. [laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah.
- TFTim Ferriss
All right. So the next question that comes to mind for me is whether you've always been a satisficer, to harken back to-
- DSDerek Sivers
Mm
- TFTim Ferriss
... the paradox of choice terminology from Barry Schwartz, or if you've ever been a maximizer. And the reason I ask is because framing games in the way you have, which is once you're, once you're good at a game and you win, it's only natural you'd stop playing that game, is to me, the, the je ne sais quoi, the spirit, the essence of a satisficer. There are people, however, who, let's just say, they want to be a grand master in chess. It's like, "This is my game."
- DSDerek Sivers
Right.
- TFTim Ferriss
I win, that is a win on the road-
- DSDerek Sivers
Ooh
- TFTim Ferriss
... of additional wins and mastery to strive to become the best in the world. Or, here's another option, which is someone who has played a game for so long, let's just say it's finances.
- DSDerek Sivers
Mm.
- TFTim Ferriss
They finally "win," in quotation marks. They no longer need to work to meet their needs. But they have played one game for so long, they don't know what other game to play, and that paradox of choice and anxiety leads them to continue playing the same game. I know so many examples of people who have won.
- DSDerek Sivers
Mm.
- TFTim Ferriss
They've won the Oscar. They've made a gajillion dollars, done whatever. They don't have the same love perhaps they once did for that game, but they continue to play it because subconsciously or consciously, they do not know what else to do.
- DSDerek Sivers
Right.
- TFTim Ferriss
So I know this is a hodgepodge of a question-
- DSDerek Sivers
Yeah
- TFTim Ferriss
... but it leads back to, I guess, the, the first, which is, have you always been a satisficer?
- DSDerek Sivers
Oh, wow, okay, the sub questions. We are reversing back to the-
- TFTim Ferriss
Yeah, this is a whole-
- DSDerek Sivers
Okay, so the-
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs] Series of plays wrapped into one
- DSDerek Sivers
... for that third, uh, uh, in fact, I, if you don't mind, I'm gonna, I think I might end up-
- TFTim Ferriss
Let's do it in reverse
- DSDerek Sivers
... answering in whatever order they...
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
So the, the third category of people that don't know what else they can do, that's the category that by my values, I want to like physically pick them up and put them into a different scenario. I think it's just objectively you need to change now.
- 2:30:06 – 2:34:12
Living on the edge case.
- DSDerek Sivers
Well, I think 10 years ago I overthought the where to live-
- TFTim Ferriss
Hmm
- DSDerek Sivers
... thing a lot. I was feeling very free after I sold my company. It's like, what do you do if you can do anything but you don't have to do anything? And where do you go when you don't have to be anywhere and you can be anywhere? It's like too much freedom.
- TFTim Ferriss
It's too much.
- DSDerek Sivers
It was a complete blank slate with no restrictions at all. I wasn't even in a relationship. I was just completely unbound. And so I spent far too long in my diary thinking of every possible place on earth I might live and why I could, or I spent hours reading about places that I still haven't even visited.
- TFTim Ferriss
[laughs]
- DSDerek Sivers
But I learned all about them. [laughs] I even know what it takes to move there and the, you know, the naturalization law of becoming a citizen there, and the steps to becoming a resident there, and the pros and cons of living there, and I've read books about it. Still haven't been there. Because I did that for many countries. That's something that was like 10 years ago. I was still maximizing that.
- TFTim Ferriss
Hmm.
- DSDerek Sivers
And now here we are in New Zealand, where the longest I've ever lived somewhere in my life is right here. I used to always move around every two years, and I've been right here in Wellington for-
Episode duration: 2:48:57
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