Dorian Yates Interview | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)

Tim Ferriss 0:00 Optimal minimal At this altitude, I can run flat-out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

Dorian Yates 0:06 Can I ask you a personal question?

Tim Ferriss 0:08 Now would seem an appropriate time. What if I did the opposite?

Dorian Yates 0:12 I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over a metal endoskeleton.

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Tim Ferriss 5:51 to receive 15% off of your website today. That's WordPress.com/tim. Okay, here we go. [laughs] It's a late night, folks. [imitates rooster crowing] That's Abu from Aladdin, and this is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, [laughs] where it is my job to every episode deconstruct a world-class performer of some type. They could be from chess, they could be from entertainment, sports, business, et cetera. In this episode, we have a very special guest because he is one of my childhood/adolescent icons, heroes, role models, Dorian Yates. Dorian Yates took the already extremely extreme [laughs] sport of bodybuilding and took it to a new level. He is a six-time Mr. Olympia, and a lot of what he did in terms of innovating and training influenced what I later put into, say, The 4-Hour Body in terms of Occam’s protocol and many other things. You can say hello to him on Twitter, @dorian_yates, or on the Facebook. He is facebook.com/dorianyatesdy. And he, along with, I would say, Coach Dan Gable of Iowa, who is coming, I promise you that, had a huge influence on a lot of my thinking and a lot of my physical training. In this particular conversation, we dig into all sorts of topics that I've been dying to ask Dorian since I was 14 or 15 years old. We talk about his relationship to pain. We talk about specific workouts like his leg workout. How does he warm up? Common mistakes, misconceptions about him. When has he surpassed limits? What is his self-talk when he's going for a PR, a personal record? We talk [laughs] about his favorite books. It goes on and on and on, including why he views freedom as not giving a fuck. [laughs] He is a fascinating guy to speak with, came from nothing, built himself up into a hero in his chosen sport, and has since reinvented and redefined himself in Spain of all places. So we cover it all, and I sincerely hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. There are many cases when you meet your heroes and they have clay feet. You are disappointed. But in this case, I came away having much more respect for Dorian, and I already had a lot, and much more fascination with this character who is truly multifaceted. So without further ado, please enjoy this conversation with Dorian Yates. [intro sound effects] Dorian, welcome to the show.

Dorian Yates 8:37 Okay, Tim. Thanks for having me on.

Tim Ferriss 8:39 I am so excited to have you on the show, and, uh, I would like to start with thanking you on behalf of a young lad, this was probably somewhere between 17 and 20 years ago, who emailed you out of the blue because he had a sports nutrition company, and you got on the phone with him, and you were very, very gracious. Ultimately, he couldn't make it worth your time to become any type of sponsored athlete or, uh, affiliated with the company, uh, but you really took the time, and it was very memorable, and that person was me. So [laughs]

Dorian Yates 9:14 Wow. I did not know that. [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 9:15 [laughs] And the company was first Brain Quick and then Body Quick and then Body Quick, and it moved around and ended up just fine. Uh, had, uh, taken me on my own journey. But I have followed you and your career from as, as early as I can really remember gathering a handful of icons in my youth, and we had Dorian Yates, and then we had Dan Gable, legendary wrestling coach, and, uh, I was very v- much

Tim Ferriss 9:47 impacted in terms of how you think and approach training to start with, and there's a, there's a lot more to that. But what I was not familiar with at the time, and I'm sure a lot of people listening have no context on, is a bit of your background and childhood. Could you tell us a little bit about where you grew up and what your childhood was like?

Dorian Yates 10:07 Yeah. Well, um, initially, I guess it was quite idyllic because I was brought up on a little, what we call in England, a smallholding, so it's kind of like a very small farm. Um, and we had horses there and dogs and chickens and all kind of animals and stuff like that. So that was pretty cool. Um, but everything changed when I was 13 and my father died from a heart attack. Um, and then my mom was gonna get remarried. We moved to Birmingham, uh, which is, uh, second-biggest city in UK. So I went from a rural, you know, kind of a more rural existence to, you know, my father dying and moving to the city. And, uh, when I was 16, um, I l- I left home. Um, my mom wanted to go living back in the, you know, back in the countryside and so on. And, um, I decided to stay on in the city. So I was 16 years old, um, no qualifications from school and nowhere to live really. I was just living at a friend's place and stuff like that. And when I was 18, I got arrested on... It was really just a stupid thing. Me and some friends were drunk and, uh, we're in the wrong place at the wrong time. But anyway, um, I got sent to a detention center when I was 18, uh, which is like a youth jail facility, I guess. Um, the idea is to put the, you know, young guys that are getting in trouble, put them in there for a short period of time, and it's very kind of, yeah, military. They're disciplining, marching everywhere, do a lot of sports, and you like try to learn, uh, some kind of skill or, you know, a job or something like that while you're in there. Um, in any case, uh, they had weights in there, which I'd done a little bit of previously and, you know, saw the magazines and everything, and I think I've trained for about six months when I was at school. Uh, I was doing karate first and then started doing a bit of weight training. So I had an interest and a little background in there. And, uh, in the facility they had weights in there, and, uh, I got, you know- You had to do this. I remember the first, one of the first times we were in there in the sports hall, you know? Uh, they gave us this, like, circuit training to do. You know, squats, um, pull-ups, push-ups, all kind of, like, in a circuit and you had to go around the circuit three times and do so many reps and, you know, when you're finished, sit down. So everyone went round, [clears throat] around that thing three times and, and sat down and the prison officer was like, you know, thought I was making fun or something. It was like-

Tim Ferriss 12:44 [laughs]

Dorian Yates 12:44 ... you gotta go, you gotta go around three times. I'm like, "I did go around three times, sir," you know? And, uh, he didn't believe me, so he made me do it again. Um, so I was, uh, stronger than... There was a few hundred guys in there. I was stronger than most of them and had, you know, the best physique and I was good with the weights and, uh, I, I... You know, at that point I think I found something that was, you know, stop screwing around. There's something here you can be... You could do something with, I think at that point was, was as far as I went, you know?

Tim Ferriss 13:16 When you left home at 16 or separated from, or went separate paths from your mother, what was that-

Dorian Yates 13:25 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 13:25 ... conversation like? I mean, was there a particular dinner? Did she see it coming? Was it a total surprise?

Dorian Yates 13:31 Uh, no. Um, well, the story is my mother moved to Birmingham, um, after my father died to remarry another gentleman, and then quite tragically had a heart attack as well within, I think it was in, within two years. So, um, my mom had no reason then to, to stay in the city, I guess. So she wanted to move back and she discussed with me whether I'd want to do that or not, and I said I didn't want to do that. So I just decided to go my own way, you know?

Tim Ferriss 14:02 Mm-hmm. And so I was watching a documentary about you recently, which was, uh, at least co-produced by, uh, the person who introduced us. Uh, well, introduced us I should say the, the second time [laughs] 17 years later, Brian Rose of London Real, and there was the observation that there are very few pics... It's hard to find a picture of you smiling before 1997.

Dorian Yates 14:27 No, that, that's something I, you know, I didn't really realize myself, I guess. Um, but I think it was a case of me being so tunnel-visioned, uh, in the pursuit of what I was doing. It's almost like it's not that I wanted to do it, it's I had to do it, you know? And, um, there wasn't much time for fun, you know? [laughs] Really.

Tim Ferriss 14:50 [laughs]

Dorian Yates 14:52 You know, people used to say to me, "Why, why don't you smile on stage?" Because previous to me, most of the guys would, you know, they would pose on stage and smile and try to look happy and, uh, uh, I just couldn't fake it. I mean, by the time I got to a contest you're, you're totally exhausted and tired and you're dehydrated and your body fat's low and you've been on a diet for three months. And, uh, for me it was a competition, it was a war. I was going there to win, so I was not really in a, you know, smiling kind of mood. So I think I brought a, a new, [clears throat] a whole new kind of persona to the sport that wasn't there before. Not purposely, but just by being myself I think, by just being genuine.

Tim Ferriss 15:32 Why did you or how did you get the nickname The Shadow?

Dorian Yates 15:37 I got the nickname The Shadow from, um, uh, a good friend of mine and probably the most respected writer in, uh, bodybuilding. His name's Peter McGough, and it's a funny story because Peter McGough was, um, a reporter for a small British magazine when I did my first competition, and eventually Peter would become the editor of Flex Magazine, which was Joe Weider's, you know, famous bodybuilding magazine, uh, in the States. Anyway, um, Peter was the one that came up with that nickname because I was kind of the opposite to, uh, [clears throat] what bodybuilders generally were at that time, you know? Quite extrovert and wanted to bring attention to themselves and, and I was the opposite, and my policy was to go to a contest... Like, my first contest [clears throat] turned up and people, you know, never heard of me and they were quite shocked at, at how good my development was. And then I would, you know, disappear and keep covered up and keep in my gym and, [clears throat] you know, there's no internet, no social media or anything like that, so the only exposure you'd get through it was through the magazines. And, um, so I'd go to a contest, win the contest and disappear and just go back to my gym and concentrate on my training. So, um, I was somewhat elusive I guess compared to, uh, the other characters in the sport. So that's where the name The Shadow came from.

Tim Ferriss 17:02 And what was, what was the gym like where you built your physique when you would vanish and go back across the pond to the UK? Could you describe the gym where you were building your physique?

Dorian Yates 17:16 Yeah. The gym was, um, well, it was right in the center, uh, city center of Birmingham. Um, and the building was probably one of the oldest buildings in the center, you know? Very... A few hundred years old, I guess. Um, and it was in the basement of this old building where the gym was, and I think it was something like, including the changing room and everything, it was less than 2,000 square feet. So very small. Um, you go down some narrow stairs into this basement. So it's very much like a dungeon. It, it reminds me of some of the dungeons I've seen in old castles. I mean, they're always in the ba- You know, you go down. Uh, there's no windows down there. So [clears throat] you kind of get down there, you're totally isolated. And I remember people used to be nervous to, to come through the door and go down the stairs because You know, it's like the steps into descending into hell or something. You don't know what's down there, and you can hear all these weights clanking and smell, you know, smell all the sweat and hear people grunting and groaning. So people were actually kind of real scared to go down there. [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 18:23 [laughs]

Dorian Yates 18:23 Uh, well, well, it was a good thing it wasn't a commercial venture, uh, at that point. Uh, s- actually it was my gym and I opened it in the '80s, uh, when gyms were far and few between, at least in the UK. So we were doing good business. But in the '90s, it really became my base for training, and we didn't care too much [laughs] whether, uh, you know, trying to get the, the members in and so on. So it's kind of like, if you like it, you can come down and train here and pay your fees. If you don't, we don't really care, you know?

Tim Ferriss 18:53 [laughs]

Dorian Yates 18:53 So [laughs] it wa- it was not a commercial venture at all.

Tim Ferriss 18:56 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 18:58 So workshop. Uh, it, uh, it, it comes to mind that, uh, a lot of people listening are, are, are perhaps not familiar with bodybuilding or have done some training, but don't know much about your career. When you were at, say, your, um, your peak in terms of, of training, whenever you felt like it was most dialed in, what did your workout split look like over the span of a week or two weeks? Is there perhaps an example of what that might have looked like?

Dorian Yates 19:28 Yeah, I mean, it, it was kind of evolving over the time, but what I settled down to, um, when I was professional... And let's be clear, if you're a professional bodybuilder, then, uh, this is your profession, so you can dedicate all your time to doing this. But even having said that, there's a limit to how much you can train if you want it to be productive. Um, so I'd split my body into four different workouts. It would be, um, chest and biceps, one workout. Legs would be a separate workout, and I would include hamstrings and calves in there. I really had pretty strong calves from, from the time I started, so they weren't a priority. So other people might want to do things differently. You know, you've got to, uh, design everything tailored to the individual.

Tim Ferriss 20:18 Mm-hmm.

Dorian Yates 20:18 Um, so that was, that was two workouts back to back. Then I'd take a day off, um, and then have a, a back workout. And the next day after that would be shoulders and triceps, and another day off. So that's a six-day cycle, and that was flexible as well, um, depending on how I felt. So very often after a leg day, it was so exhausting and so depleting, not just on the legs, but on the whole, you know, your whole system and nervous system and so on. Um, so very often it would be a two-day break after that. So that meant that I was getting around to training everything just once a week or once every six days, seven days, depended on, on how I was feeling.

Tim Ferriss 21:01 So I've seen footage of people vomiting after your leg workouts, and, uh, you mentioned people would be intimidated or afraid when they went down into the dungeon, and it seems like that was particularly common with those people you invited to do leg day with you. What, what did your leg day-- What might a work- a, a leg day workout look like?

Dorian Yates 21:21 Well, you know, if you work... if you write it down on a piece of paper, it doesn't mean much. It doesn't look like much. It's nothing special. So let's, let's, um, let's say how it would look on a piece of paper. It would be three sets of leg extensions, three sets of leg press, and two sets of squats on a hack squat machine or a Smith machine. Earlier in my career, I did do free squats, but I stopped doing them as I felt they weren't that productive and the injury risk was, was too great for me.

Tim Ferriss 21:52 Mm-hmm.

Dorian Yates 21:52 Um, so that would be quads. And after that would be two sets of leg curls, two sets of stiff-legged deadlifts, two sets of standing calf raises, and two sets of seated calf raises. So hey, that looks like a breeze, right? That's not much written down on a piece of paper.

Tim Ferriss 22:09 [laughs]

Dorian Yates 22:10 But the point is, is what you put into it. It's the intensity that you put into those sets. And even, uh, let me take you through the first exercise, leg extensions. The first set would be quite light and quite easy. So the, the goal there is to get, uh, in touch with the muscle, you know, feel the muscle contract and stretch and get the blood in there so it's warming up. The second set would be more difficult, but not to absolute maximum. Um, and then the third set is the one that I call the working set or the one that really, really counts, because the other two, they're within your capacity, so they're not going to do anything, quite frankly, apart from warming you up.

Tim Ferriss 22:52 Mm-hmm.

Dorian Yates 22:52 Because your body has no reason to change if it's working within its capacity. What-- You know, why would it? Um, you have to overload it. You have to give it something that it's not used to that's, that's going to be a shock. Um, basically muscle growth is an adaptation to stress. So you've got to give your muscles more stress than they're accustomed to, otherwise they won't change. Quite basically, that's it. So, um, that last set, you've just got to put everything into it. And it's not about throwing weights around and screaming and shouting. It's about concentrating. It's about doing the movement correctly. It's about moving the weights slowly under, under control. Even when it gets absolutely torturously hard and impossible to do those last reps at the end, that's where we have a training partner to come and help you squeeze out those last couple of reps. And when you do go to what's true muscular failure, uh, with a large muscle group like the legs and, and glutes and so on, I mean, it's absolutely exhausting because you use so much oxygen. So after that set, you'll, you know, you'll be breathing like a train. You'll probably start to feel very nauseous a- and so on. So if you're not, you know, if you're not used to that kind of work, then very often people do vomit, yeah. It's not my goal. It's not my goal particularly to get them to do that, but, you know, sometimes it's a bit of a shock. Um- Uh, but pe- most people don't train with me all the time, so I'm trying to like... Part of my job as I see it as a trainer is to take them, to show them where they can go.

Tim Ferriss 24:29 Mm-hmm.

Dorian Yates 24:30 Um, so which I'm very good at because I can observe people and I know exactly what they can do, where their limit is, and they don't know that yet. So it's like me taking them by the hand and then, like, taking them out there and like, y- you know, "This is where you gotta be."

Tim Ferriss 24:45 And, and the third set is to true, true muscular failure.

Dorian Yates 24:49 True muscular failure. And then, in my opinion, you don't need to do another set on that particular exercise. Um, so we move on to another exercise, which for, for argument's sake could, could be leg press.

Tim Ferriss 25:03 Mm-hmm.

Dorian Yates 25:03 Um, now we're involving the glutes and maybe a little bit around the lower back that we didn't hit on the leg extensions. So we're gonna warm up again, one or two sets, depends what you need. And again, then absolute failure. You're gonna have one guy either side of the leg press machine to make sure, you know, you're safe while you go to absolute failure, and perhaps they're gonna help you a little bit on the last, uh, last two reps.

Tim Ferriss 25:27 Mm-hmm.

Dorian Yates 25:27 Um, so it's all about the intensity. Probably get through this, um, workout in around 40, 45 minutes.

Tim Ferriss 25:33 Mm-hmm.

Dorian Yates 25:33 Um, so very intense, uh, to, to stress the muscles, give them something they're not used to. And then the rest of your job as a bodybuilder is really recovering from that stress and repairing your body, you know? You've gotta re- you've gotta recover first, and then you can repair and hopefully overcompensate a little bit.

Tim Ferriss 25:54 And if, if we were looking at, say, the leg extension exercise and hypothetically, let's say your, uh, your working set weight is 100 pounds.

Dorian Yates 26:04 Yeah.

Tim Ferriss 26:04 Uh, how... What, what is the repetition range or the time under tension range that is your target for failure if you have one? And then if it... If 100 pounds is your working set, what might-

Dorian Yates 26:15 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 26:15 ... your first and second set use?

Dorian Yates 26:18 Well, actually, we've got this all documented because now I'm, uh... I have, uh, my certification program, DYHIT, so Dorian Yates High, High Intensity Training. So we've got this all documented, and the guideline would be if your maximum set... So Tim, you, you, you know, you reckon you can do 100 pounds on the leg extension for, for 10 reps. That, that, that'll be your max. So we'd probably start with half of that, like 50%.

Tim Ferriss 26:45 Mm-hmm.

Dorian Yates 26:45 Uh, for your first set, nice and light. Uh, second set, probably 70%, so 70 pounds in this case. Um, and then, you know, ready to rock and roll on, on the 100 pounds. And you thought you could do 10. Well, we will probably get like 13 or 14 out of you.

Tim Ferriss 27:03 [laughs]

Dorian Yates 27:04 We'll, we'll get you beyond what you thought. And then, uh, that's the lesson in itself to say, "Hey, you know, you can go a little bit more." And these are the ones that count. The last one or two reps at the end of the set, th- that's the magic. That's where the magic happens, you know?

Tim Ferriss 27:18 Definitely.

Dorian Yates 27:18 And if you, and if you can do 100 pounds on a leg extension for 10 reps last week, if you did that last week, you can do that for the next... the rest of your life, man, and nothing's gonna happen.

Tim Ferriss 27:30 Mm-hmm.

Dorian Yates 27:31 That, uh, that I'll guarantee you, and I see it happen all the time. Um, people will get some progress first year, maybe 18 months. Uh, but then, then the body becomes accustomed, becomes smart. You know, we don't want to keep adapting to this stress. So it just... You know? Uh, you gotta, you gotta really push it to get results beyond that point.

Tim Ferriss 27:50 And, uh, I won't spend this entire time in the weeds, but I'm so curious just to whet people's appetite for the documentation that you mentioned. Between the, say, first light set, the second heavier set, and the third work set, how much rest do you take between those sets? Or, or how do you-

Dorian Yates 28:09 Well-

Tim Ferriss 28:09 ... how do you know when you're ready to go to the next set?

Dorian Yates 28:10 I don't, I don't like to work with, uh, too much with, you know, a stopwatch.

Tim Ferriss 28:15 Mm-hmm.

Dorian Yates 28:15 Uh, I kind of observe somebody if I'm training them, or I teach them to observe themselves. Uh, and basically the guideline is you rest in between the sets as long as, as long as you need so that you will be able to do the following set, um, to muscular failure. So let's say we did, you know, we did a set of leg press and you're breathing like a steam train, and we jump on and try and do another set after 30 seconds. You, you're gonna fail, uh, due to, um, cardiovascular failure rather than real muscular failure. Um, and on the other hand, if we rest, you know, way too long between the sets, we're gonna lo- use-- lose some of the intensity of the workout. So it's kind of a balancing thing. You got to rest long enough so your breathing is somewhat normal so that you're not gonna run out of gas on your next set. And so it would depend on the size of the muscle groups being trained. If you're doing a squat, leg press, deadlift, uh, exercises like that, multi-joint exercises that are using the largest muscles in your body, there's gonna be a huge oxygen debt if you go to failure. Um, so you're gonna need to rest longer between those sets as opposed to, hey, we've just done a bicep curl. You know? Um, so I think if, if it's really heavy leg training, it could be three or four minutes between the sets easily, whereas, you know, a bicep curl or a deltoid raise, it could be a minute or less.

Tim Ferriss 29:49 Got it. And what... There's one back... Well, it's not limited to back, but one exercise I would love to talk about, and that's the bent row. So I remember way back in the early '90s, I saw a lot of photographs of you performing bent rows with a palms up supinated grip. And so for, for people listening who may not, uh, be able to easily distinguish, I had a lot of trouble remembering supinated and pronated. And so if you want to have s- drink soup out of your hand, then you have to turn it up. So if... With the palms up-

Dorian Yates 30:22 There you go.

Tim Ferriss 30:23 Uh-

Dorian Yates 30:23 Palms up, supinated, yeah.

Tim Ferriss 30:24 And do you, uh... Could you describe how you- uh, performed the bent row? It doesn't have to be that variation, but, uh-

Dorian Yates 30:34 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 30:34 ... and/or how you teach people to do it. Like, what, what is the right way to do a bent row in your mind?

Dorian Yates 30:39 Well, you know, first of all, I should say I'm a, you know, uh, I'm very studious. I like to study things. I studied nutrition right from, you know, from day one. I bought books on nutrition and studied nutrition. I bought, you know, I, I must have had every book that's been published, every magazine from the early '80s until the day I retired. So, um, I've read everybody else's training articles and books and everything, so gleaned a lot of information from here and there. And the bent over row, I came up with that position lifting my body up above parallel. The old traditional way to do bent over rows was with the body parallel to the floor, [clears throat] fairly wide grip, and pulling the bar into the chest, which is fine if you want to work the upper back, uh, rhomboids and lower trapezius and so on. But the area that I saw that was lacking in most bodybuilders was the middle to low lats. And when that's fully developed and it's thick and you get that Christmas tree separation, it looks really dramatic, you know? And, uh-

Tim Ferriss 31:42 And just, just to pause there. For people who don't know-

Dorian Yates 31:45 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 31:45 ... what that might mean, I was gonna bring this up later, but just Google Dorian Yates Christmas tree back [laughs] to see-

Dorian Yates 31:52 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 31:52 ... what this looks like. [laughs]

Dorian Yates 31:53 Well, you get the Christmas tree kind of shape, uh, the separation between the, where the lats, uh, attach and the, the spine erector. So obviously you got to be in very lean condition, literally no, uh, body fat there, so you can see all the separation, fine separation of the, those muscles. So what I was trying to do was to thicken my mid and lower lats. Um, naturally my w- my lats are very wide. Uh, always had a good back. But I got beaten twice in professional bodybuilding. The first was my, uh, debut in the professional ranks, and I was beaten by a guy called Mohammed Benaziza in my first show, which was called Nights of Champions in New York, 1990. If anyone wants to go and look, Mohammed B- Benaziza was an incredible bodybuilder. Very short, I think he was only like 5'4" or something like that. But anyway, he beat me, and his back was like 3D thickness, you know? And mine wasn't quite there yet. So I got inspired by that, um, started working on my lower lats, mid back. And I realized with the reverse grip, I could really kind of pull the elbows, uh, further back at the top and squeeze and really contract that, the lower lats. Um, so that's why I started working with the reverse grip. And between Mohammed Benaziza, who beat me in my first contest, and Lee Haney, who beat me in my first Mr. Olympia, where I got second. And Lee Haney, again, was... had that super, like, three-dimensional thickness on the lower lats. Uh, he wasn't quite as lean with the separation, but he had very impressive thickness. So those two guys pushed me to, like, you know, further concentrate on that area and thicken it up, and actually I became [laughs] really well known for that in the end. Probably more than those two guys. [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 33:46 Oh, I would... I mean, certainly based on my obsessive reading of all the magazines at the time, I think that's, that's certainly true. And when you're performing an exercise like that form of row, do you think much about, uh, tempo in terms of the speed of lifting? Are there any pauses? Uh, how, how do you think about that?

Dorian Yates 34:06 Absolutely. [clears throat] Well, first of all, you need to understand the, the function of the muscle and the exercise and how that's, um, performing the, the function. Uh, you need to kind of get your head inside the muscle so you feel it stretch, you feel it contract. You almost become like part of the fibers. And I often say bodybuilding is really the opposite of weightlifting or powerlifting, where their job is to get the weight from point A to point B. However, you know, the easiest or best way to do that is, um, so they use momentum, they use mechanics, they use as many muscle groups to lift the weight. Whereas a bodybuilder is using the weight as a tool, k- so to speak, uh, in order to put maximum stress on the particular muscle group they're trying to isolate and work. So it's very important, um, to move the weights in a controlled manner, uh, and not to create any kind of swing or momentum to, to move the weights. And the most important thing that people don't realize is that you have different phases of the rep. You have the positive, which is the lifting, which everybody kind of concentrates on, and then you've got the lowering of the weight or the negative phase, which people kind of just tend to rush through. Um, but I think a lot of the muscle damages occurs on the negative part of the rep. So, [clears throat] you know, we could argue which one's more important, the positive, the negative. I say, I don't know, so [laughs] let's do both-

Tim Ferriss 35:42 [laughs]

Dorian Yates 35:42 ... of them to the absolute maximum, you know? Um, and you're always stronger in the negative phase of an exercise. So unless you're slowing down the negative, unless you're consciously slowing down the negative part of the movement, you're never gonna fully tax that part, 'cause you might fail on the lifting. You know, say you're doing bench press and you're pushing it up, right? And you can't push anymore in a positive, you know, way of pushing the weight up. But if somebody lifted the weight to the top to you, you could probably lower two or three more, 'cause the negative, uh, phase of the muscle is not exhausted. So in order to get somewhere near exhaustion of the negative phase, you need to slow that down. So I tell people, you know, do the positive quite explosively, but not swinging, and then consciously slow down the, the negative. Although I don't like to, you know, count seconds and so on.

Tim Ferriss 36:33 How did you h- how did you connect with- Mike Mentzer, and who is Mike for people who don't know?

Dorian Yates 36:40 [clears throat] Well, as I said, I did a lot of studying, [smacks lips] and, uh, I think I'm quite a logical thinker. And Mike Mentzer was, uh, Mr. Universe, professional bodybuilder, and top competitor in, in, uh, Mr. Olympia. And Mike was around and in the magazines when I started reading magazines, and he was, uh... had a kind of unique training system, I guess, called Heavy Duty. And this was short, r- uh, relatively compared to how the other guys were training anyway, short, intense workouts. And Mike would be the first one to say that he'd got, um, pretty much all his principles from a guy called Arthur Jones, who, um, made a line of exercise machines called Nautilus machines way back in the '70s. And Arthur Jones was, I guess, a pretty brilliant guy, and he was a self-made billionaire, uh, with no financial interest in the bodybuilding world really. He just made these Nautilus machines because he felt they were the best way to build muscle, and it was something he was very interested in. He used to have, uh, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Mike Mentzer, Casey Viator, all these guys go out to his place in Florida to train. Anyway, Arthur was the first guy to say, you know, what's the science behind muscle growth? And to point out that the intensity is really the key factor. Intensity and recovery and, uh, so on. So all the, the principles, uh, of heavy, high-intensity training, weight training, come originally from Arthur Jones, got refined by Mike Mentzer, and Mike Mentzer was somebody that I admired very much and, uh, you know. So I guess I took those methods, maybe refined them more, uh, over the years. Um, but the guy that deserves the credit for originally pointing out, um, a lot of facts, uh, he was the first guy to talk about genetics, you know. About previously to that, you know, we'd been sold a story that, you know, everybody could be Mr. Universe or Mr. Olympia if you train like Arnold and eat like Arnold and so on. Uh, Arthur Jones was the first guy to point out scientifically that's, you know, that's not possible. Um, people have different genetic, uh, abilities to, to build muscle, just like they have for running or jumping and singing or whatever else it is, you know?

Tim Ferriss 39:06 Right. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's the, the raw materials that you begin with, whether it's you have better myostatin inhibition than someone else or fill in the blank. There, there's so many variables known and unknown. And for people who have only now heard the name Arthur Jones for the first time, I highly recommend, he's a very colorful character and a good writer also, checking out some of his earlier... his bulletins that he would put out and some of his writing. He had a crocodile farm. He was a, he was a very, very odd-

Dorian Yates 39:37 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 39:37 ... an eccentric, but smart guy.

Dorian Yates 39:39 Eccentric guy.

Tim Ferriss 39:40 Yeah.

Dorian Yates 39:40 He had, um, you know, he had gorillas as well. And one time-

Tim Ferriss 39:44 [laughs]

Dorian Yates 39:45 ... there was a, there was a picture of one of the gorillas in the Nautilus pullover machine.

Tim Ferriss 39:49 [laughs] Oh, God.

Dorian Yates 39:50 So, uh, you know, I think they had to... must have had to put the gorilla on some heavy sedatives or something-

Tim Ferriss 39:56 [laughs]

Dorian Yates 39:56 ... to get that picture in the Nautilus pullover machine. But that's a pretty famous picture. Yeah, he's a colorful guy and, uh, obviously a very, very smart guy and a thinker and, uh, you know, I, I read all his stuff. I read Mike Mentzer's stuff, and then that was kind of coupled with my own observations in the gym, that if I did more than a certain amount or if I trained more often, my progress would just come to a halt.

Tim Ferriss 40:23 Mm-hmm.

Dorian Yates 40:23 And then I would, you know, get run down, get tired, take a week off, and guess what would happen after I had a week off from the gym? I'd go back and boom, I was stronger. Why was that? It was because my body was exhausted and depleted and it wasn't recovered. I took a week off and it recovered and rebuilt itself and I was stronger. So, uh, there was a lesson there. You got to train, you got to put stress on the muscles, you got to break them down, and then you must let your body recover and, you know, that takes time and it takes, uh, good nutrition as well.

Tim Ferriss 40:56 When you, uh, observe people who are attempting or hear from people who are attempting some form of high-intensity training or some type of, uh, rational le- limited volume to failure training, what are the most common mistakes, uh, that you see or the most... some of the most common misconceptions, either?

Dorian Yates 41:20 I, I think the most common misconceptions is, um, that you got to use a ton of weight.

Tim Ferriss 41:27 Mm-hmm.

Dorian Yates 41:27 Uh, you know, if you look at my training videos of Blood and Guts, uh, that we filmed, yes, I'm using what can be considered very heavy weights in there, but I'm using them in the correct way. So if I wanted to lift more weights in those particular exercises, I probably could have done, but I would have to do it in a form that was not, you know, was not putting the maximum on the muscles that I'm trying to train. So, um, the first misconception is that you're going to be throwing around tons of weight. You're going to be using the weight as a tool. That's, uh, I think that's the main mistake that people make, and also because they've read about beyond failure training techniques. So for people who are not familiar, if you're lifting a weight and it gets to a point where you're, you're stuck, you can't complete the rep, then that's failure. You can go beyond that point if you've got a training partner there to slightly assist you just to get one or two more reps right at the end of the set. Uh, that's the correct, uh, way to do forced reps. Um, but people get carried away with it, and they're in the gym, they've got too much weight on there, and they're doing like one rep correctly, and then the training partner's helping them on the second and third rep. And that's, you know- Uh, that's not gonna get you anywhere apart from injured

Tim Ferriss 42:46 So I'd love to talk, uh, a little bit about the mental and self-talk. Uh, so in 1990, I want to talk about that loss, but could you place for us, uh, in 1990, where were you living? What were you doing when you were not on stage competing?

Dorian Yates 43:05 Okay. In 1990, I was living with my, um, first wife, or w- I don't think we were married at that time, but we were living together with my son, and we were living in a t- two-bedroom, uh, council estate maisonette. So I know people in the States wouldn't know what a council estate is. I guess it's like... I don't know what you call it in the, in the States, but government housing, you know?

Tim Ferriss 43:31 Yeah, affordable housing. Uh-

Dorian Yates 43:33 Affordable housing, government housing, whatever. It's not [chuckles] not the best place to live probably. Um, you know, you used to have noisy neighbors, always stuff like this, problems going on. Um, so I was living there. Um, I was making a living from the gym, which I had had, um, for about three years at that point, and there were not a l- lot of gyms around, so the... You know, I was making okay living from the gym, uh, and supporting my wife and, uh, child and, you know, uh, the expenses, uh, that I incurred in bodybuilding with the diet and the supplements and all that kind of stuff. Um, so that's where I was at. And, um, I was the best. You know, I'd won... 1998, I'd won the, the British Championship Heavyweight and Overall, and that qualified me to be a professional, and I chose the show Night of the Champions, as it was called at the time, which was kind of a, a very prestigious show to, like, try and do a debut at, and quite well-respected. And if you got in the top five of that show, you could go on to compete in the Mr. Olympia. Um, so it's quite an attractive show to do. Um, so at this point, you know, um, I've been doing this thing for five years now, competing and training and really absolutely putting everything into it, and, you know, sacrificed social life, sacrificed friends, time with the family. And, you know, if you've got a family, then that means they're sacrificing as well. So I, I observed a lot of people around me, a lot of people following this bodybuilding dream, you know, and they weren't getting anywhere and they weren't gonna get anywhere because they didn't have what it took. But, you know, they were still making all these sacrifices and, you know, um, damaging relationships and business and money and lots of things, you know, that you're totally focused on this thing. So I said, "I don't want to be one of those guys." And I've observed the way things work. If you're gonna be a top professional and you're gonna make it in the sport of bodybuilding as a professional, then you're pretty much gonna make a mark from, you know, from your, your first contest. You, you don't, you don't go into a pro contest and get 15th place and then next year win Mr. Olympia because it just don't work like that. So if you've got what it takes, it's gonna be apparent.

Tim Ferriss 46:01 You have all of these, uh, sacrifices that you're making. You are living in a, a place with its own problems or challenges certainly. W- when you found out that you did not win, uh, and after that, maybe it's the n- the, the night after or the day after, what was your self-talk like? What were you saying to yourself, if you remember?

Dorian Yates 46:26 Well, I'll, I'll tell you what the self-talk was before I got there because that's, that's, uh, pretty relevant. Um, so I, I saw everything that was going on around me and I said, "Right. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna take 18 months off after my British Championship win. I'm gonna take 18 months off. I'm s- gonna give 100% focus to this contest, absolutely everything I've got, and if I don't place in the top five of this contest, then I won't compete again." You know? Because, um, I haven't got what it takes basically. So I'll concentrate on the gym, maybe open another gym, something like that. But as for, you know, being a competitive professional bodybuilder, um, that would be the end for me if I don't place in the top five, so I put myself under a bit of pressure. Um, [clears throat] so in the end, I got second place, but I mean, it was a great lineup and some people in there, like Robbie Robinson, I mean, this guy was a hero of mine when I started, you know? Um, and before I went to America, I was pretty much told by everybody that I didn't have much of a chance because I didn't have any name recognition. Uh, I wasn't known by any of the judges or the promoters, had no publicity in the magazines, da, da, da, da, da. And plus, you're English and they're gonna favor the American athletes, and, you know, all this, um, negative stuff which I didn't really listen to. I just thought, "If I'm good enough, I'm good enough," and that, that's it. Um, so I made a huge impact at the show. Um, the crowd was very vocal, and I was their favorite. Um, and from that showing, I got invited to, to California to go to Gold's Gym and do a photo shoot for the Weider magazines and all this stuff. So although I didn't win the contest, um, I probably got more out of it than the guy that did win it-

Tim Ferriss 48:23 Right

Dorian Yates 48:23 ... because, because I was brand new and such a different look and a persona and everything, and the crowd was going crazy. Um, so I was not disappointed at all in getting second. It was like a vindication for me. It was like, "Wow, I am good enough then." 'Cause I got second in this first pro contest with no publicity, no nothing, and it was a close second as well, and I beat a lot of really good seasoned bodybuilders and professionals. So Maybe I do have what it takes.

Tim Ferriss 48:53 Uh, what, what would you say from... So we're looking at 1990. Was that a similar experience to your first Mr. Olympia competition? Was the self-talk before and after the same, or did it change at all?

Dorian Yates 49:06 Uh, it, it was different because, um, at this point my confidence was building because, um, the following year, '91, when I did my first Mr. Olympia, earlier in the year to, to qualify for the Mr. Olympia, I did the same contest again, Night of Champions, and this time won it. And, you know, I was improved from the previous year. Physique was better. I was feeling more confident, more comfortable with being on stage and doing that, uh, part of it. So the one hurdle really was that Lee Haney was Mr. Olympia when I started training, and, you know, so he's the guy that I've been looking up to all these years, uh, you know, uh, as Mr. Olympia, and now I realize I've got to change my mindset because this is no longer the, you know, the hero, the guy. I gotta go there and try and beat this guy. So if I have this, you know, uh, this approach to it, "Wow, it's Lee Haney and it's Mr. Olympia and wow," you know, of course, great respect, but I had to go as a competitor, so I had to say, like, you know, now the guy's a competitor, and you know what? He's, he's a man. He's got two arms, two legs. He lifts weights, and I think maybe I can beat him because nobody lifts weight harder than me, so that made me... You know, gives me a lot of confidence going into it. Um, so it didn't happen, but once again, it was a very close second, and it's the first time that anyone got second on their, uh, debut event at, at Mr. Olympia. Um, so it was a couple of firsts there, and, um, I was happy with the placing. You know, some people at contest said, "Oh, you should have won," and what have you, but, um, I think at the time it was a fair result.

Tim Ferriss 50:55 So, so the, the next question's gonna be about '92 to '97-

Dorian Yates 51:01 Okay

Tim Ferriss 51:01 ... and obviously feel free to take this off track somewhere else, but I, I've, I've always, in watching videos of you, watching, uh, looking at photographs of you training, wondered about your relationship to pain. So let's say during that '92 to '97, how did you think about pain or relate to it? And I don't know if that's a, a good question or not, but I've, I've always wanted to ask it.

Dorian Yates 51:25 I don't know. I think you become accustomed to pain, you know, and make friends with it, and I even look for it. I mean, I, I was... I know I was talking to, I was talking to somebody and I was explaining, look, my legs were sore, like can't sit down on the toilet sore, for three or four days of every week of my life for, like, more than 10 years.

Tim Ferriss 51:51 [laughs]

Dorian Yates 51:53 Yeah.

Tim Ferriss 51:54 Yeah.

Dorian Yates 51:54 So if I was not hobbling around for a few days of every week in pain, uncomfortable to sit down, uncomfortable to sleep, I wasn't happy. I wasn't doing my job properly. So, you know, um, with me it almost became like I had no fear, and it beca- it made me maybe a little reckless at times, and perhaps that's why I got injured going really for con- because I was doing stuff before contests that probably wasn't necessary I realize now. Um, and you know, your, your intake of nutrients is less. You're more dehydrated. You're tired. So the injury risk, uh, gets greater going to a contest, and the two serious injuries I had would have been in the last six weeks before a contest. So, um, but you know, I literally used to go and attack the weights and, uh, you know, you, you... I felt I was indestructible. You often do when you're young, you know?

Tim Ferriss 52:52 [laughs] Yeah. So I, I had a, uh, certainly not to that ex- extreme necessarily, but, uh, well, let me just ask. I mean, how much, how much weight in terms of water and dehydration would you lose in the last 24 to 36 hours or 48 hours prior to a competition?

Dorian Yates 53:13 Um, probably not a lot, hopefully. I mean, um, some people used to do extreme things, but because I was very calculated, I'd probably be within, uh, within five or six pounds of my contest weight from, like, couple of weeks out.

Tim Ferriss 53:29 Oh, that's fantastic.

Dorian Yates 53:30 So yeah. And then the last week I would just manipulate, um, carbohydrates and water and so on to try and get, uh, a little drier, uh, between the skin and so on, so you get the separation of muscles coming out. But I'd probably lose a couple of pounds the last, uh, two days. It wa- it wasn't very drastic, but it, you know, it was the end of... Usually I'd take 12 weeks to specifically dial in for a contest.

Tim Ferriss 53:57 Mm-hmm. I was, uh, when I had a number of my most serious injuries and needed reconstructive shoulder surgery and had a number of different tendon and ligament issues, it was always, uh, while I was dehydrating for making weight for competitive wrestling, uh, that... So I, I wrestled for more than a decade and I-

Dorian Yates 54:19 Wow

Tim Ferriss 54:19 ... almost all of the major injuries and chronic injuries and issues that I have now I can trace back to a period of extreme dehydration.

Dorian Yates 54:27 Well, that could've been the case with me. I don't, I don't know if it was extreme dehydration or a combination of slight dehydration, extremely low body fat, um, uh, tiredness.

Tim Ferriss 54:39 Right.

Dorian Yates 54:40 You know, it could, it could be all a combination of all those factors. But dehydration a- absolutely is gonna increase your risk.

Tim Ferriss 54:47 I want to come back, and hopefully I'm not beating a dead horse here, but I think it's really valuable for people to hear, and I'm fascinated by it, the how you utilize- ... self-talk because in this conversation with you, in conversations that I've heard of yours, you seem very good at speaking to yourself well, giving yourself instructions and feedback well. And I, I've... What, what brought this to mind was watching footage of you looking at old training journals. And, uh, in the journal, not only did you have the specifics of a given workout, but you [laughs] there was one line, and as I'm not gonna be getting this perfectly right, but it was something like, "I am ashamed of this workout." [laughs]

Dorian Yates 55:32 [laughs] Yeah.

Tim Ferriss 55:33 From, from this point on, it's all guns-

Dorian Yates 55:35 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 55:35 ... blazing or something. Could you-

Dorian Yates 55:37 Yeah, yeah. S- stop screwing around, you know?

Tim Ferriss 55:39 Yeah. Could, could you, could you describe how you used that type of written feedback and so on?

Dorian Yates 55:46 It's just notes and motivation and, uh, what I would do as well is, like, set goals. And, um, whenever, whenever I advise people, I, I tell them this. It's just instead of saying something, get a pen, get a piece of paper, and write it down. It just makes it 100 times more powerful. You know, I'm gonna do this. I, I wanna lose this amount of weight. I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna do... You know? But you gotta be realistic. I'm gonna do this in four weeks. I'm gonna lose... No, no, no. I'm gonna lose four pounds in, in four weeks. And write it down. And then how are you gonna do that? Write it down. You know, all, everything, I wrote everything down, so I had a plan. And, um, I'd even rehearse... It, it's funny. It's almost like instinctively. I think some of it is instinct and some of it was studying. Uh, the whole sport psychology, I pretty much got it down, uh, very quickly, you know? I didn't need anyone to, to coach me on it. I kind of found out myself. And plus, you know, reading all the stuff I did and other people, I think Mike Mentzer used to advocate keeping a training diary, so I probably picked that up from there. Um, and, uh, even before going to workout, I would sit down, I would... with the training diary, and I'd look at what I did last week. So this is what I did last week. These are all the exercises, all the sets, these are all the reps. Okay, so this is what I want to do today. I want to do... I did 250 pounds for six reps last week. I want to do seven or eight this week. All right? So seven or eight on that bench press. And when I get down on that bench press, the weight's gonna feel like this, and I'm gonna bring it down, and it's gonna feel like this, and I'm gonna be wearing this shirt. It's like literally used to visualize the whole workout before I even went to the gym. S- um, so I knew exactly what I was doing, in what order, and, and everything. And that was just dialed in. So I, I wouldn't even talk to anybody when I went to the gym. You know? I would just do my workout. So you gotta have a plan. You know, if you just wander in the gym and think, "Oh, what shall I do today?" You're not gonna get anywhere.

Tim Ferriss 57:55 So when you walked in with a plan, and let's say you get to a particular exercise where your work set is gonna be a new PR for you, a new personal record-

Dorian Yates 58:03 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 58:03 ... what is going on in your head between, uh, either, like, when you walk in the gym or in the minutes prior to that, uh, that set?

Dorian Yates 58:17 Well, it's just really confirming, um, what you're gonna do and, you know, why you're doing it. You gotta, you gotta have a motivation, man. You're not gonna put yourself through pain and discomfort unless there's some kind of motivation there. So what's your motivation for doing this, and how bad do you want it? And for me it was like life or death, really. You know? That's, that's how it felt anyway, life or death. I gotta do this. I've gotta change my life, and this is what I gotta do, and this is the road I'm gonna take, and nothing's gonna stop me. But, you know, that was my personal motivation. You gotta, got- everyone's gotta find their own. Um, but you're only gonna push as hard as you're, you're motivated, basically.

Tim Ferriss 58:55 S- so let's, let's dig into that a little bit because I, uh... [laughs] So after one of the Mr. Olympias, [laughs] maybe multiple, you were asked, when are you gonna start training again? [laughs] And then you would say, uh, very straight-faced, "Next week." And it sort of boggled-

Dorian Yates 59:10 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 59:10 ... boggled people's minds because they were like, "Why don't you take a few months off?" And you're like, "Why don't you take a few months off of sex?" [laughs] And so-

Dorian Yates 59:17 Yeah. Like, in other words, if you enjoy it... I, I like training, so why am I gonna take it? You know? Maybe, maybe it would've been good sometimes to take a couple of weeks off, probably give my joints a rest and so on. But I was a man with, with a mission and, you know, um, it's hard to, like, control that fire sometimes.

Tim Ferriss 59:35 When you say life or death, what was feeding that fire? Was there anything else that was, was driving you? Or was it just a-

Dorian Yates 59:42 I, I mean, who knows? Deep psychological reasons perhaps. Uh, who, who knows? Um, I, I'm sure that, um, because I didn't have an easy childhood and, you know, a particularly close and loving family and all these kind of things that other people might have, um, I think if I had a really comfortable upbringing like that, I probably wouldn't be the driven person I was, you know? So I'm sure there's something there in that, in wanting to achieve or wanting to be recognized, uh, or something. But, uh, i- in any case, it, it... In some ways it felt like I already, already knew that I was gonna do this or I had to do this. Um, I don't know if that's, if that's easy to understand, but it's, yeah, it's almost like I had to... I knew I was gonna do this.

Tim Ferriss 1:00:32 What are certain beliefs that you had then that you think were unhelpful now? Uh, if, if you look back at your competitive career or the period of time after that, after you were sidelined, taken out by injuries, uh, what, what are, what are th- what are beliefs that you had that were unhelpful, or things that you've really changed your mind about a lot in, uh, in the last, say, d- d- decade or two or since competing?

Dorian Yates 1:01:03 I think what I struggled with, and I think this is very common with athletes that have had tunnel vision, is like who are you, you know? Who are you now that that goal has been... It's not there or it's been taken away or however one you- however you want to put it. Um, with me it was injury. So, um, [clears throat] all throughout my career I was very controlled. You know? I controlled everything and when I competed and all this kind of stuff, and this I didn't have control of because it was like, you're injured and you can't compete anymore and, and that's it. So, um, I didn't have control over that. Um-

Tim Ferriss 1:01:42 And these were... This was bicep and tricep injuries?

Dorian Yates 1:01:45 Yeah, it was bicep was the original injury. Um-

Tim Ferriss 1:01:48 Which people can see photographs of. It's basically from-

Dorian Yates 1:01:51 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 1:01:51 ... your tips of your fingers to your armpit is just black on one arm.

Dorian Yates 1:01:55 That was six weeks before a contest in 1994, and again, you know, six weeks out maybe, maybe a little dehydrated, tired, body fat's low, and I was training too heavy, uh, for that phase of my training. I was doing 440 pounds bent over rows and, um, yeah, the bicep popped. Um, so I wasn't indestructible, you know?

Tim Ferriss 1:02:26 And what did you find helpful or unhelpful for finding peace with yourself after losing that singular goal?

Dorian Yates 1:02:38 I think it takes time, you know? It takes time because you've been doing this one thing for so long and, you know, it's kind of like that's all you know. So it takes some time to readjust and rebalance and, um, come to the realization of like, okay, that's over, but, you know, there's a... You can do anything you want, you know?

Tim Ferriss 1:03:03 Mm-hmm.

Dorian Yates 1:03:03 Anything you want with- and you have more time now, you have more freedom to pursue things and interests and that wouldn't be possible before because I was on such a strict, uh, regime. So in the end, I, I came to appreciate that, but it did definitely take time.

Tim Ferriss 1:03:19 You've, uh, undergone a transformation, uh, I, I think many people would say, or certainly the people who've had close exposure to you. Uh, among other things, you now practice yoga. Uh-

Dorian Yates 1:03:33 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 1:03:33 ... you, instead of wearing only black and gray shirts, you wear [laughs] white and colored shirts, which oddly enough is something that I've started doing in the last two years. Uh, and you've changed locations. You know, you've, you've made a lot of, of changes to your life in the, in the last, say, five years. Uh-

Dorian Yates 1:03:52 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 1:03:52 ... are there any particular experiences or teachers who have helped you to undergo that transformation? Because you seem like a far happier human being or at peace human being, uh, now than certainly in, in anything that I've, uh, seen of you during competition or shortly thereafter.

Dorian Yates 1:04:12 Yeah, I think it's a qui- case of constantly adjusting and, um, I don't know, at some point I thought, wow, I'm just kind of, you know, doing the same things. Um, maybe I need some more variety. So I just... I started doing some different things and I was looking at my body, you know. Uh, I got quite a few injuries. I got the bicep, the tricep and the supraspinatus torn on the left side. So, um, me pursuing what I was doing before, you know, trying to push the weights in the gym, was starting to be kind of, in some ways could be detrimental and lead to more injuries. Um, so, um, yeah, I don't know. I, I, uh, I kind of had a message internally that I need to do something different, and I wasn't sure if it was yoga or Tai Chi or something along those lines, [clears throat] but I started doing yoga and, um, I found it amazing for the, the physical side. Uh, a lot more mobility. I didn't realize... Because I always did some stretching when I was training, so quads and hamstrings and, you know, basic stretches. I was pretty good on for- especially for a bodybuilder, I guess. Um, but a lot of the mobility and twisting and things like that was quite limited. Uh, I remember I was talking to a chiropractor friend of mine, and he was like, "You know, people didn't used to get back problems, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years ago, uh, because they used to sit so much around the campfire in that squat position and, you know, they sit like that for hours. Uh, and if you can sit like that and you're comfortable, you probably won't have any back problems." I thought, "That's interesting. Let me sit in a squat." And it was like kind of uncomfortable and tight and didn't feel right, you know? Um, so yeah, I was, uh, I was led to do the yoga and I enjoyed the physical side of it, the mobility, the stretching, and also the kind of spiritual side as well, and I do meditation, uh, as well as the yoga. And, uh, but I, you know, I still like to push physically. I do cycling over here in Spain. I've got some good steep hills, so I do cycling up the hills and, you know, people can hear me shouting and screaming at myself going up the hills up there. [laughs] So, uh, I still like to push myself. I do some functional training in, in the gym with ropes and pushing sleds and stuff like that. Um, so I, I, you know, I still love to, to challenge myself. If I'm going to do it, I, you know, I'm going to still go pretty hard. And I'm very interested now in, um, just keeping cardiovascular fitness, mobility, flexibility, all the things that are re- relevant to me as I'm getting older. You know, this vehicle that we have, that we live in, uh, this machine, the body, is the only thing you've got to function in this, you know, in this, uh, reality. So if it's not working very well- You know, you're not gonna have such a fun time, you know? So really that's, you know, my training's all geared to that now, to keeping it efficient. The same as the diet. And, you know, I honestly feel great, tremendous. Um, I'm 55 next month, and I feel great. I feel better than when I was 35.

Tim Ferriss 1:07:22 [laughs] Well, happy ear- early birthday, number one. And number two, do you remember what your first yoga class was like, or do you have any notable yoga, early yoga experiences that you could describe?

Dorian Yates 1:07:34 I do, yeah. I have a funny story. It was, um... So I got this thing that, you know, I wanted to do yoga. Um, but I didn't want to just go to a yoga class or... I said, "You know what? If I concentrate on this, if I think about it enough, the person will come along," kind of thing. So, you know, I put it out there, I want a yoga teacher. I want to... And I ask around, and through a, a friend of mine, he said, "Yeah, I n- I know somebody, and she's good, and think you'll like her." And, uh, so me and Gal, we went along, and, uh, the first class with this lady we did, and I thought this yoga stuff, you know, it looks like a piece of cake, right?

Tim Ferriss 1:08:12 [laughs]

Dorian Yates 1:08:14 So you, you just stand there and do this, and some of the stuff I'm not gonna be able to do 'cause I'm physically too big, but, you know, it should be all right. And I didn't realize how difficult some of the poses are and how long you hold them and, uh, you know, your body's not used to that. It's not accustomed to that. If you're used to just powerful, you know, powerful stuff, it's, it's, it's a different kind. So I, I was holding a pose and, uh, like a lunging pose, and my legs just gave way and I fell on the floor, you know?

Tim Ferriss 1:08:44 [laughs] So this is like a-

Dorian Yates 1:08:47 And, uh, the-

Tim Ferriss 1:08:47 ... this is like a warrior pose, one of those?

Dorian Yates 1:08:49 Yeah.

Tim Ferriss 1:08:49 Warrior II.

Dorian Yates 1:08:49 Warrior po- yeah, the wa- that's exactly what it was. It was, like, Warrior II, I think, and I just, my legs just buckled. I couldn't stand up. I fell on the floor. And the yoga teacher looked at me and ro- you know, lifted her eyebrows up and kind of went, "Ah, Dorian." You know? Like, "Not so easy, is it?" You know?

Tim Ferriss 1:09:04 [laughs]

Dorian Yates 1:09:05 [laughs] So, you know, it, it, it got easier now.

Tim Ferriss 1:09:10 So, so I think this is actually a good point to ask, uh, that there are many different listener and fan questions that came in.

Dorian Yates 1:09:18 Okay.

Tim Ferriss 1:09:18 You have a lot of fans in my audience, but one of them is, I think, closely related to what we're talking about. This is from Nicholas Meyer: "Knowing what you know now, what do you wish you could change about your training program back when you were competing, if anything? Like diet, uh, high-intensity training versus volume, anything." Mm-hmm.

Dorian Yates 1:09:35 Yeah, I've had this question before, so it's something I've, uh, pondered on, you know? Right, the only thing that I think would be... Well, two things that would be beneficial to me if I could go back and change them, uh, would be, uh, not training with super intensity, uh, to the absolute maximum the last two months before a contest, where your, uh, calorie intake and so on's restricted and you're doing more cardio and you may be dehydrated, and avoid those injuries. That would be great. Um, the other thing is I don't believe I ever really presented the best physique I could on stage, 'cause I generally looked better, in my opinion, and I can confirm this now by looking at photos and, uh, you know, from a different perspective now, 'cause I'm not quite so involved. Um, the best physiques which I present were probably, like, two or three weeks before a contest, so I always overdid it a little bit, you know? Dorian Yates would never underdo anything.

Tim Ferriss 1:10:41 [laughs]

Dorian Yates 1:10:41 There was always a, always a tendency to overdo, and that's the thing that needed to be controlled a little bit, perhaps. So those two things are the only things that I would've changed. Um, but would I change them? Because those events led me to where I am now. So if we went back in time and stopped me from getting injured, this whole story would be different. Maybe I would've competed longer, and maybe that wouldn't be good. Who knows? So, uh, I, I don't, uh, live with any regrets, you know? So, so, so in fact, I probably wouldn't change it.

Tim Ferriss 1:11:26 So if, if you were, though, tasked with going back in time and trying to convince-

Dorian Yates 1:11:31 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 1:11:31 ... younger Dorian to leave a little bit of slack in the system for the, the weeks leading up to competition to underdo that a little bit-

Dorian Yates 1:11:40 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 1:11:40 ... because you look back at the photos and you're better three weeks out, what would you have said to that young, younger Dorian?

Dorian Yates 1:11:48 Well, I was kind of conscious of that the last couple of years, and I was trying not to do it, but still a tendency to overdo it. And, you know, I had good friends who... When I won in Mr. Olympia in '93, and it was probably the most devastating win in the history of the contest, that it was just outright first place, and it was a physique, um, size and condition, uh, that had never been seen before. So everyone was saying to me then, "Well, look, you know, you gotta stop that crazy heavy training you're doing, 'cause there's risk involved with that. You can't do that forever. And maybe just kind of cruise now and, you know, hold your position and earn your money." And, uh, that probably would be wise advice, but, uh, it wasn't exciting for me, you know? I wanted to, I still wanted to try to push the envelope to see how far we could go.

Tim Ferriss 1:12:43 Did you ever have... This is, this came up a number of times from different people, and I'm curious as well. [sighs] What was your plan B if bodybuilding didn't pan out, if you, if you, if you had one?

Dorian Yates 1:12:54 Well, um, I didn't have a plan B, really. Um, I, I knew that bodybuilding was gonna do something good for me, and in a very short time I won the British Championships and got a financial backup because of that, 'cause I didn't have- You know, two pennies to rub together. I didn't have a car. I didn't have anything. Um, somebody, uh, backed me and financed me with, with the gym because I was British champion. So very quickly, you know, I was already earning a living now from this thing that I love doing. I got my own gym with doing my own equipment that I chose and everything, and I'm making a nice living. So, um, that was already happening. I think the question was whether I would be a successful professional bodybuilder or not. If I wasn't, then I probably would open some more gyms. Um, and, and who knows? I was never the guy that was gonna be, you know, working for somebody else or doing nine-to-five. That was never gonna happen.

Tim Ferriss 1:13:57 So this next question is from Tierney Eaton. Uh, and she asks a question that also came up a number of times and comes up a lot, so I, I'm sure you've heard some variation of this. "What is the best way for women to build beautiful lean muscle? Higher reps with light weights or lower reps with heavy weights? I'm reading books on both but would love to hear his opinion."

Dorian Yates 1:14:18 It's exactly the same that would build big muscles on a male. There's absolutely no difference in my opinion. There's a lot of hype and a lot of marketing around women's training. Um, if women want to, uh, change their appearance, shall we say, change their appearance, there's only a couple ways you can do that. Uh, you can build muscle and/or you can lose fat. That's the only way. I mean, you can't change your bone structure, so what makes your shape apart from your bone structure is your muscles and, and body fat. So, uh, you need high-intensity training, uh, rep range, you know, eight to 12 reps in a set, uh, going to failure, and, um, and the rest is diet, you know? To make sure you're getting sufficient protein and eating regular small meals and, uh, keeping a control on your calories so it's not too much but it's enough. So there's, there's a lot involved, but it's, you know... I don't see anything different from a lady training to a guy training. They got the same [chuckles] muscles in the same places, and they respond to stress in the same way.

Tim Ferriss 1:15:34 I would like to just underscore that because I get this type of question a lot, and I don't have an opportunity to answer it, uh, publicly, uh-

Dorian Yates 1:15:42 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 1:15:42 ... or I haven't taken the opportunity much. So a few, a few things just because I think what you said is so important to underscore. There's a lot of sales and marketing to women that is very, uh, I think insulting frankly because they use words like toning and lengthening when you can't-

Dorian Yates 1:15:58 Oh, man. Don't, don't start with the toning, man.

Tim Ferriss 1:16:01 Uh, yeah. [laughs]

Dorian Yates 1:16:02 That's, that's, that's my pet hate.

Tim Ferriss 1:16:04 Oh, well, there-

Dorian Yates 1:16:05 What the fuck does that mean? Toning?

Tim Ferriss 1:16:07 [laughs] It doesn't mean anything. And then-

Dorian Yates 1:16:09 Well, I'll tell you, I'll tell you what it means. Actually, what a lady means when she says toning. She means that she's gonna look leaner and tighter, right? So her tone is gonna look... Her muscular tone is gonna look better. Although it's a nonsense word, I, I know where you're coming from. And how do you get that look? Easily. Well, not easily, but h-how do you get it is you build your muscle and decrease the body fat. So the ratio of muscle to fat is higher, and then you're gonna look leaner, and you're gonna have that look that you call toned. Um, but there's no magic exercise that can do it for you, no magic diet. It's, it's, you know, uh, consistent weight training in the gym and good diet. And it's not, you know, there's not that much of a difference in a woman's program to a man's program. It's just, uh, you know, if I'm dealing with a client, I just deal with that client on an individual basis. Whether a man or a woman, it, it doesn't matter to me. I just, you know, I figure everything out depending on the, on the individual.

Tim Ferriss 1:17:17 Right. And also just for, for women who might be listening and are concerned about getting too bulky or whatever it might be, number one, I would say you have... and, and I'm estimating here, but let's just say one tenth to one twentieth the free testosterone of a male, and a lot of men have difficulty adding mass. So you're not gonna become, uh, you know, Mrs. Olympia overnight as a surprise. [laughs] So you can very much-

Dorian Yates 1:17:42 Oh, yeah

Tim Ferriss 1:17:42 ... notice the changes and adjust.

Dorian Yates 1:17:43 Yeah, you're not gonna, you're not gonna build muscles by mistake, you know?

Tim Ferriss 1:17:47 Right.

Dorian Yates 1:17:47 It's... It takes a lot of work to, to build muscles. But I, I, I know where the lady's coming from. Maybe they start lifting and, you know, first few weeks the jeans get a bit tighter or something like that 'cause you're, you're starting to build muscle. But you... A- as long as you control your diet, you'll be losing the body fat at the same time. So you'll get this, this look that you're looking for. It's called less body fat and more muscle.

Tim Ferriss 1:18:12 Yeah.

Dorian Yates 1:18:13 And that's what you're looking for, and that's why you're called toned and all these kind of nonsense terms. But that's what it is. So if, if a lady wants to change her body, she's got to do weight training. She's got to do resistance training, and she's got to be conscious about her diet. And that's it. Same as a guy. May- is it more difficult for a woman to build muscle and lose body fat? Yes, probably generally speaking, yes, but it's the same process.

Tim Ferriss 1:18:39 Even if you look back at some of the physiques that I think, uh, have been iconic female physiques, and I'm not saying they were physique competitors in the modern sense at all, but even Marilyn Monroe actually did resistance training. There are photographs of her doing dumbbell work.

Dorian Yates 1:18:53 Absolutely. We, we had a big black and white poster of Marilyn Monroe in the, uh, ladies changing room at Temple Gym down in The Dungeon. We say it's the ladies changing room. It was just like a little cupboard in the wall really. [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:19:07 [laughs]

Dorian Yates 1:19:08 But anyway, room, room for one lady to get changed in there. And, uh, we had a big black and white, uh- Of Mallorie and Monroe doing bench press with dumbbells

Tim Ferriss 1:19:17 And you've spent, I mean, you've spent a good amount of time also, just so people have context of time around, uh, female competitors and, uh, who are testing all these different protocols and regimens right alongside the men. So I, I, I don't want them to get the impression that, um, you haven't had a lot of direct experience both coaching and interacting with, with-

Dorian Yates 1:19:40 Absolutely. And, you know, my wife is a, a world champion, a figure champion and a Brazilian champion, South American champion. So, um, you know, I, I live with somebody that, uh, that trains as well.

Tim Ferriss 1:19:55 So, so we talked a little bit about, uh, gender differences or lack of, of differences in terms of training protocol. Here's a question from... I, I really prefer personal names, but this is from a Facebook page, I guess. [chuckles]

Dorian Yates 1:20:09 All right.

Tim Ferriss 1:20:09 Per- Perfect Body Quest. Okay, fine. Uh-

Dorian Yates 1:20:12 Okay

Tim Ferriss 1:20:12 ... so, so that tells you, uh... But in any case, the question is, uh, please ask him about the differences in training and nutrition for enhanced versus natural lifters. And-

Dorian Yates 1:20:23 Okay

Tim Ferriss 1:20:24 ... uh, and we can define some terms here. Uh, so-- And I'd like to actually clarify something because it's a, it's a, it's, it's, uh, just a personal note. And so the f- the first is enhanced. It can go by a number of different w- terms. Could be using gear, could be using anabolics, could be using, uh, you know, PEDs. There are many different ways to phrase it. But also-

Dorian Yates 1:20:46 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 1:20:46 ... um, this is just a cr-- something that drives me nuts, so I'm gonna point it out for people. If you, if you look at my Wikipedia page right now, [chuckles] there is a, at least there has been a line that says something along the lines of Tim Ferriss has admitted to using, uh, like Sustanon 250, HGH, et cetera, after surgery. And that drives me nuts because it's, it's what they would call on Wikipedia a weasel word. I wrote an entire chapter in my second book about the sort of benefits and risks of, uh, a very methodical anabolic use, say, after reconstructive surgery, which I used after my shoulder was reconstructed. So that's something I just want to clear the air on. I didn't admit it. It makes it sound very shifty. Wrote an entire chap-

Dorian Yates 1:21:31 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 1:21:31 ... chapter on it, folks. So, uh, so that all having been said, uh, what are your thoughts on training and nutrition differences for enhanced versus natural lifters?

Dorian Yates 1:21:43 Well, the, the thing with anabolics and, uh, I mean, how they work is they enhance your body's ability to recover from the stress. Um, at, at some point, uh, your, your body's not gonna be able to recover from the amount of stress you're putting on it, and then you're gonna reach a plateau. Um, so athletes use, uh, mainly anabolics steroids, which are derivatives of testosterone, male hormone, and, um, also to some degree, growth hormone, um, to recover and repair from the workouts. So if somebody's using, uh, enhancement, uh, or anabolic steroids... Just call it enhancement for argument's sake. If anyone-- if someone's using enhancement, they're gonna be able to recover, uh, more efficiently, uh, than somebody that's not, and they're gonna be able to... They're gonna take things to a, a higher plateau, um, before, again, they plateau, you know? Um, so if you're not using anabolics, you're not gonna be able to train like a lot of the guys you read about in the magazines that might be training five or six days a week and two hours a day and everything. It's not something I recommend, but you know, some guys do. Some professionals do train that much. Um, if you try to do that, uh, without enhancing your hormone level, um, you know, you're gonna get over-trained very quickly, and you're not gonna get the results you're looking for. So, I mean, whether you're using anabolics or not, [clears throat] the process is this: You go in the gym and you put stress on the muscles, um, and then they have to recover. If after they've recovered, [clears throat] there was sufficient stress, then they overcompensate. So you need to allow enough time for that to happen. So I use this analogy at seminars sometimes, very, very simple, uh, analogy, but it gets the point across. Um, if I was to take a piece of sandpaper and rub it across the palm of my hand until it's kind of bleeding a bit and damaged. If I was to leave that for a few days, it would heal up and the skin would be, you know, marginally stronger and thicker than it was before because it wants to protect itself from that stress. Um, and that's basically, you know, what happens with muscle growth. So let's say we take that situation again. I get the sandpaper, rub it across the palm of my hands. It's all red and bloody and, you know. I leave it for a day or two. It's not quite healed yet. It's still a bit red, and I go and do it again. We're not getting anywhere, right? We've just got bloody hands. Um, so it's the same thing with, uh, training in the gym. You've got to apply stress and then you've got to recover. If you're using steroids, you'll be able to recover more quickly and train more frequently. So, uh, it's all about the recovery. Uh, whether you use it or not, you have to be aw- aware of recovery. Um, so it's, and it's gonna enhance your, your ability to recover from that stress, and you're gonna be able to go further than if you didn't use it. That's, you know, very basically how they work.

Tim Ferriss 1:24:56 And, and I should also say, obviously, I'm not a doctor. Don't play one on the internet. But there are, uh, there are potential risks associated with use and abuse of any of these things for people listening. And if you're two months into your training protocol or a year, whatever, and you're not a professional, there are very few circumstances in which Uh, I would recommend, uh, certainly any cavalier use, but, uh, medical, medically supervised use of a lot of these compounds. It's not something to be taken lightly as a decision, but it is a reality of almost every competitive sport that has, uh, endurance, power output, uh, oxygen-carrying capacity as primary determinants of placement. And whether it's-

Dorian Yates 1:25:40 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 1:25:40 ... cyclists or sprinters or otherwise, uh, even in something like the biathlon, people are, are... would potentially use something like beta blockers to calm their nerves so they can take more effective shots after elevating their heart rate. So, uh-

Dorian Yates 1:25:55 Well, we got a couple of things in, in England, at least when I was a kid, they used to call sports... I don't know why they're called sports, but you got one called darts-

Tim Ferriss 1:26:02 [laughs]

Dorian Yates 1:26:03 Where the, you know-

Tim Ferriss 1:26:04 It's great

Dorian Yates 1:26:05 ... the guys throw the darts in a board, right? And the other one, snooker, which is a bit like pool. Um, and you know, even these guys, they're using beta blockers and drinking beer [laughs] to, to help calm their nerves and enhance their game. You know, if, if it's competitive, people are gonna do whatever they can to get the edge. And, uh, I, I don't recommend them to anybody. I don't tell people what they should do. I just, um, kind of be frank about my experiences and, uh, leave it up to other people. But to be honest, if I was not, um, a competitive bodybuilder, I wouldn't... uh, I don't see the point in using steroids and perhaps opening yourself up to potential, uh, health risks, which, which, you know, which are there o- over the long period. And then you have the other subject of, um, you know, using it therapeutically for, uh, uh, older guys, um, that their testosterone level's declining, and this causes age-related, uh, illnesses and diseases, uh, which can be, um, stemmed by putting your testosterone back to normal, uh, hormone replacement, so to speak, or recovering from surgery and the other, other applications. So, you know, um, they, they, they have uses, uh, outside of, uh, sports.

Tim Ferriss 1:27:29 Yeah. Yeah, there are definitely legitimate applications, even in wasting diseases, uh, where you have, uh, say, decreased T cell count. Uh, so a lot of... uh, there are some HIV-positive patients who will use oxandrolone and things of that type. So for, for folks interested, I'd su- I'd suggest educating yourself. And it's a fascinating subject with, uh... there's some documentaries out there. I think it's Bigger, Faster, Stronger, which was, uh, done by Chris Bell. It features his brother, Mark Bell, uh, who has become a friend. A fascinating documentary, and people can do, uh, more homework on their own. So the, the next question is from Mohammed Samar Gulzar: "At the peak of your career, were there any days you felt stuck when things weren't moving? What did you do then?"

Dorian Yates 1:28:17 Well, you know, when you get to the level of, um, top competitive level, Mr. Olympia and so on, um, uh, the, the more developed you get and the higher up you get, the, the actual changes and the gains are very, very small, you know? If, uh, if you put a, you know, three or four pounds of muscle on over a year, uh, when you're at professional level, it would be considered a pretty good gain. Um, so things really do slow down and it's... you're not gonna get the kind of progress you got when you, you know, when you first started out. Um, so it's, it's more of a... you kind of cycle the training, you know? You'll train hard for five or six weeks, and then you, you back down a little bit. You train lighter, and then you go up again. Um, so you're looking for small gains over the course, uh, of a year, um, at, at that point. So you're not getting the feedback you used to get where, you know, [laughs] you go in the gym and, "Wow, look, look at the progress I made since, uh, last month," or something. It's, uh, it's more or less like maintaining it and, and trying to improve on certain areas and, and things like that.

Tim Ferriss 1:29:25 So Dorian, one question that I would love to ask that's maybe related is, if you look back at the period of time between the end of your competitive career and now, uh, what have been one of your darkest periods or, uh, dark period for you, and how did you find your way out of it? What were the things that helped?

Dorian Yates 1:29:47 Uh, the darkest period would probably be kind of the couple of years, the first couple of years after I, uh, retired. Um, you know, there was a... I was, uh... I didn't even know what was going on. I was waking up at night. I couldn't sleep. I was feeling nervous and, uh, uh, I was diagnosed with clinical depression. You know, I'd just been forced retired from this thing I'd been doing for so long. Um, I ca- uh, and a lot of things kind of came to the surface that maybe because you've got such tunnel vision while you're doing it, um, I realized there was problems in my marriage that maybe I hadn't really looked at because, you know, you're just in this tunnel and keep going and keep going. So all these kind of things you maybe swept under the carpet, so to speak, they all, you know, they all start popping out. Um, so, you know, I had been retired from this thing, uh, that I was doing, which is, you know, can be quite traumatic for people retiring from their profession in any case. Um, my marriage was breaking up. Uh, somebody very close to me passed away. So all these things like, you know, a perfect storm of, uh, of stress all at the same time for me to, to deal with. And, um, you know, the one thing that kind of got me through it was going to the gym. Although I didn't have that goal of training for a Mr. Olympia, just to go to the gym and train was like a form of meditation for me, um, where I would forget about the outside world and problems and, uh, so on. So You know, and even now, I j- I just love to train. I'm not really... I'm not doing weight training as I used to now, but, you know, for whether I'm riding my bike or swimming or doing yoga or, you know, functional training, whatever it is, I, I really, uh, love to exercise. And I think that's, you know, that helped me get through that period, and it took quite a few years before I started, you know, um, balancing out and maybe, uh, you know... And now it's, uh, it's 20 years since I was competing, you know? And I think, uh, I feel like I'm in a, you know, really good place now, but that's [laughs] that's a lot of time, man, 20 years, you know?

Tim Ferriss 1:32:08 What helped you to find meaning, uh, in the sense that... I mean, was there just a day when you surprised yourself and you're like, "Oh, the clouds are not hanging over my head," or did you sit down and journal or have a, some type of friend or mentor who helped you to find, uh, a direction or a purpose after being a competit- competitive for so long?

Dorian Yates 1:32:31 I think, uh, I think a lot of people kind of, you know, and, um, a lot of reading and stuff I did. It's kind- uh, you kinda got to figure it out for yourself. And, uh, at one point, I, you know, say, "Hey, I've been doing this thing for 12, 15 years, and I haven't been able to do this and do that, so let me, you know, go out and party and be crazy and go to nightclubs and let me travel and go here and, uh, go on safari and things that I couldn't do before." So I started to realize instead of, like, looking at what you lost, look at what you gained.

Tim Ferriss 1:33:06 Right.

Dorian Yates 1:33:07 You know, I couldn't imagine living that lifestyle that I was living as a professional bodybuilder now, you know? It's, it's, it's just, you know, uh, be way too restrictive now. I couldn't do it, you know?

Tim Ferriss 1:33:18 Mm-hmm.

Dorian Yates 1:33:19 Um, so yeah, it took me some time to find a balance, but, uh, the benefits are I feel much more a free person now. I'm not... You know, I don't have to eat six times a day. I don't have to, you know, be at the gym at this time or, uh, you know. I- I'm maintaining some discipline on, you know, because that's my nature, but then I've had to learn to sometimes not have discipline, you know? [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:33:44 Right.

Dorian Yates 1:33:45 That makes... So you get balance.

Tim Ferriss 1:33:46 Mm-hmm. No, it does make sense. And you mentioned books. I'd love to, uh-

Dorian Yates 1:33:52 Oh, I love to read. I mean, that's, uh... I always loved to read, and I think that was a huge advantage for me when I did bodybuilding. I just consumed books on training and nutrition and kind of worked it all out for myself, and that, that was half of the fun of it, you know? Now guys have got nutritionists and trainers and managers and God knows what else. Um, for me, the whole... This, bodybuilding was an individual pursuit, an individual test of character and everything. It was not a team, team sport, you know?

Tim Ferriss 1:34:26 Are there any particular books that you've reread, uh, or gifted to other people?

Dorian Yates 1:34:33 Well, I'm reading a lot of stuff at the moment. I've, I've read quite a lot of books from, from one guy, uh, um, on a spiritual level, which has helped me. So I'll just say his name. His name's Eric Pepin. That's P-E-P-I-N. Uh, if you guys want to check him out, uh, I think he's a great, uh, spiritual teacher in techniques and meditation and things like that I find interesting at the moment, so.

Tim Ferriss 1:34:58 Is there a book of his that you would suggest people start with?

Dorian Yates 1:35:01 Um, the one to start with would probably be Handbook of the Navigator or Meditation into Eternity. That'd probably be the best one. Either of those two. The meditation book is more on, you know, teach you, um... A- and Eric Pepin is very much like, uh, Arthur Jones or, you know, uh, Bruce Lee. I call him Bruce Lee of spirituality because, uh, it's, it's kind of like spirituality/science. And now science and spirituality are now pretty much coming together to be the same thing with, you know, quantum physics and stuff like that. So, uh, I find his stuff very, uh, logical, you know? So anyway, uh, if people are interested in spiritual side of life, I would, I would recommend go and read some of his stuff.

Tim Ferriss 1:35:49 So, so this is gonna seem like a left turn, but I don't think it, I don't think it totally is. So, so you mentioned to, uh, our mutual friend Brian once, and, and I'm simplifying here, but [laughs] that freedom is not giving a fuck. And I, uh, maybe I'm misquoting you, but I w- I would love to hear you elaborate on that, and maybe you can give context as well.

Dorian Yates 1:36:13 Yeah, I was... I think I was talking to myself at first.

Tim Ferriss 1:36:15 [laughs]

Dorian Yates 1:36:16 You know? Because, um, you know, there's still that thing. You're, you, you're Mr. Olympia, right? Six times Mr. Olympia, legend in the sport. So I guess you, you, you feel like you have to maintain some kind of image or, or whatever it is, you know? And, uh, I thought, you know, am, am I doing this now? Am I trying to maintain some kind of, you know, am I doing this training, maintaining this level of physique for myself or am I doing it for, you know, for other people or other outside forces? Um, so I, I think it was a question for myself at first of like, do you... Are you gonna live your life or make decisions or in any way be controlled by the opinions of other people or what you perceive to be the other [laughs] opinions of other people, which might not even be their opinion anyway? Uh, in any case, in the end, uh, you gotta live your life the way, um, that you think you should live it at, at that time and not, uh, be controlled. And we all are, you know? We, we're controlled all the time. From the day we're born, we're controlled by, uh, by our parents' opinion, by the school's opinion, by the government's opinion, by the media's opinion and so on. And, uh, I want to be free of that. So basically, um- Uh, the greater is suspect. I'm gonna do what I need to do, um, taking care not to hurt anyone else, and that's it. I don't really give a fuck what anyone else thinks about that

Tim Ferriss 1:37:58 And I've, I've heard you also say that, uh, and there are a few different metaphors, but that, that life is like a movie. And I, I, I, I enjoyed hearing you talk about that. I don't know if you could maybe, uh, elaborate on that as well because it seems like it's pretty closely related-

Dorian Yates 1:38:13 You know, we, we can go into quantum physics and stuff, uh, on this but, I mean, what quantum physicists have, have discovered is that the reality we live in is not what we think it is, and it's made of, uh, computer code. And it's kind of our thoughts interact with this code, so therefore your thoughts can help create your reality. So, um, you know, you're on The Truman Show, man.

Tim Ferriss 1:38:45 [laughs]

Dorian Yates 1:38:45 What, what do... What, what do you want it to be? You know, what do you want to do? What do you want to play in this movie? You know? Um, create that, uh, that story with your mind, you know? Uh, and, and take steps to, to make it happen and, and it can happen. So that's what I mean by it being a movie or a, a video game or, or something like that, you know?

Tim Ferriss 1:39:11 Being the director in your own movie. Uh-

Dorian Yates 1:39:14 Oh, you're in a holographic movie, man. Check it out.

Tim Ferriss 1:39:16 [laughs] You know, there's, there's a lot of other subject matter that we could discuss that would, that would definitely veer into that territory very quickly. Uh, at some point we could talk about that because-

Dorian Yates 1:39:28 Oh, we'll just whet people's appetite for next time

Tim Ferriss 1:39:30 Oh, yeah. We'll just whet people's appetite.

Dorian Yates 1:39:31 Yeah.

Tim Ferriss 1:39:31 And, uh, for people listening who are wondering what the hell I'm talking about, you can also look up Johns Hopkins, uh, and, uh, psychedelic and research and my name, and you'll, you'll see a number of things pop up. But the, uh... One of the last questions, just, just one or two more-

Dorian Yates 1:39:46 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 1:39:46 ... is if you had a, a gigantic billboard and you could get a message out to millions of people, what might you put on that billboard? Does anything come to mind?

Dorian Yates 1:39:56 We are one.

Tim Ferriss 1:39:57 We are one.

Dorian Yates 1:39:59 We are one.

Tim Ferriss 1:40:00 We are one. Well, I think that's it.

Dorian Yates 1:40:02 Yeah. We're all, we're all part of one thing, man. We're all connected. Just, ju- just like cells in a human body. They're all separate cells, but they make up the body, so they're part of one thing, right?

Tim Ferriss 1:40:14 We are one. We are-

Dorian Yates 1:40:16 Yeah.

Tim Ferriss 1:40:16 I think, I think that's a good place to wrap up. Dorian, I, I, I thank you so much for your time and-

Dorian Yates 1:40:22 Thanks for having me on, man. It's been fun, so you know?

Tim Ferriss 1:40:24 Maybe we'll do-

Dorian Yates 1:40:25 You want me back again, if people want me back again and they want to ask more stuff, let me know what it is and we'll, we'll get, we'll get chatting, you know?

Tim Ferriss 1:40:31 I, I will let you know, and I'm sure we'll have plenty of questions. Uh, where can people best find you online, say hello, see what you're up to, learn more about the certification that we mentioned?

Dorian Yates 1:40:43 Yeah. There's... Well, there's various places. Instagram is thedorianyates. Facebook, we've got dynutrition. A dynutrition website and DYHIT website. Uh, so if you search Dorian Yates Nutrition, Dorian Yates High Intensity Training, um, you know, various ways you can get in touch with me.

Tim Ferriss 1:41:05 Well, once again, uh, this has been, I, I feel like a conversation 20-plus years in the making, so I'm really thrilled to be able to connect via-

Dorian Yates 1:41:15 Great. And I didn't, and I didn't remember that phone call we did 20 years ago.

Tim Ferriss 1:41:18 I was... It was a long time ago. You've had a lot of phone calls. [laughs]

Dorian Yates 1:41:21 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:41:21 So, but the point being that you at the time were, uh, the, the, the equivalent of, say, reaching out to Bruce Lee for me, and you were very gracious in that phone call, and that stuck with me. That really stuck with me, that you, that you made the time. Even though it was a polite decline, you were very, very gracious and it-

Dorian Yates 1:41:42 Oh, sowing, sowing seeds, man. Look where the, what happened to the seed. How about that, right?

Tim Ferriss 1:41:46 [laughs] Now here we are.

Dorian Yates 1:41:48 Yeah.

Tim Ferriss 1:41:48 So, uh, so I want to, number one, thank you for the time. And for everybody listening, you can find links to everything we've talked about, all the books, the certifications, the websites, where you can learn more about Dorian, his Instagram, in the show notes for this episode. You can find the show notes for this episode and every other episode at tim.blog/podcast, or just search Tim Ferriss Show, uh, and show notes and it'll pop right up. And, uh, that is all. So everyone listening, I hope you enjoyed this as much as I did. And until next time, keep experimenting, be safe, and question your assumptions. [upbeat music] Hey, guys. This is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is 5-Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? 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