Dr. Andrew Huberman — The Foundations of Physical and Mental Performance

1. 0:00 – 1:39

   Intro

   1. TFTim Ferriss0:00

      [upbeat music] Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss for a rare [ding] in-person podcast. I know that's become the norm on YouTube and elsewhere, but this is a rare occasion, and I am thrilled to have Andrew Huberman here with me. So great to have you here in person, Andrew. So Andrew Huberman. Who is this Andrew Huberman? Dr. Huberman, PhD, on Twitter @hubermanlab, is a neuroscientist and tenured professor in the Department of Neurobiology at Stanford University's School of Medicine. He has made numerous important contributions to the fields of brain development, brain function, and neural plasticity. Work from the Huberman Laboratory at Stanford Medicine has been consistently published in top journals, including Nature, Science, and Cell. For those who don't know, that's like having a sweep at the Oscars. But back to the bio. Andrew is the host of the podcast Huberman Lab, which is often ranked as one of the top five podcasts in the world by both Apple and Spotify. This is me adding a bit. You've taken the charts and the world by storm, Dr. Huberman. We're gonna talk more about that probably, but congratulations. The show aims to help viewers and listeners improve their health with science and science-based tools. New episodes air every Monday on YouTube and all podcast platforms. You can find all things Andrew at hubermanlab.com, on YouTube, that is Huberman Lab, Instagram hubermanlab, and also on Twitter as mentioned @hubermanlab. Andrew, nice to see you.

   2. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:38

      Great to

2. 1:39 – 4:13

   Inspirations and principles.

   1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:39

      see you. So happy to be here. I wanna say I grew up listening to your podcast, although I think I was in my 30s when I started listening. So for me, I'm really tickled to be here because so much of how I ran my laboratory when I first became a professor was based on principles from The 4-Hour Workweek. Now mind you, my work weeks were, like, 100-hour work weeks. I actually lived in my laboratory with my dog. My students and postdocs can attest to that, but I incorporated a ton of the principles. I was following 4-Hour Body slow carb diet. I was training. I had my cheat days, and on and on and on. So for me, this is kind of being transported forward and back in time.

   2. TFTim Ferriss2:20

      No, man.

   3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:20

      Yeah.

   4. TFTim Ferriss2:21

      Well-

   5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:21

      I can't say enough positive things about you and your podcast and what you've done. And as you know, this is not just because I'm sitting here in front of you-

   6. TFTim Ferriss2:27

      Mm-hmm

   7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:27

      ... 'cause I text you all the time.

   8. TFTim Ferriss2:29

      [laughs]

   9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:29

      In fact, I will say this. I have a notebook that dates back over a decade where at the time I was pretty lonely, it was just me and my dog. Eventually a great girlfriend at the time came along, but I was running my lab and there's a lot of social buffers between professors and students understandably and necessarily. And so I was pretty lonely and I thought, like, who are my friends gonna be? [laughs] I was in a new town, didn't know many people. And I have this list, and I read the list the other day, I'll send you a photo, and the list was of about five or six people that I really admired and whose principles and work I was trying to incorporate into basically every aspe- aspect of my life. At the top of the list is a guy named Tim Armstrong, lead singer for Rancid-

   10. TFTim Ferriss3:12

       Mm-hmm

   11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman3:12

       ... who I've recently become friends with, and so totally, that's another amazing story. Joe Strummer, who unfortunately I never met, the great Joe Strummer, which explains my attire.

   12. TFTim Ferriss3:24

       [laughs]

   13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman3:24

       He always wore a button-down black shirt in his adulthood, so then I decided to do that at some point, and much more relate to Joe. Your name, because The 4-Hour Workweek and your podcast which eventually came along. Rick Rubin, who I've had the, you know, the great blessing of having on my podcast and learning from, and then Oliver Sacks, who unfortunately passed away before I ever had the chance to meet him. But anyway, I had to tell you that, that you were already my friend before-

   14. TFTim Ferriss3:51

       [laughs]

   15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman3:51

       ... you, you knew who I was, and I did that because I would look at that list and think, "Okay, who, who do I wanna c- try and embody in terms of ways about going through life and trying to do things right in my professional and personal life?" So that was my shortlist-

   16. TFTim Ferriss4:06

       [laughs]

   17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman4:06

       ... and I'm very proud of that shortlist. I still have it. I sent Tim the, the list the other day, and he was like, "No way, man. This is pretty wild."

   18. TFTim Ferriss4:12

       That's wild.

   19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman4:12

       So

3. 4:13 – 16:12

   Sleep, nutrients, exercise, light, and relationships.

   1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman4:13

      I'm like, "You think it's wild for you, this-- [laughs] Imagine how wild this is for me." So anyway, to set the context.

   2. TFTim Ferriss4:17

      Yeah. Well, I, I appreciate that, man. And I've been incredibly impressed, not just with your research and academic bonafides and what you've accomplished there, which is a lot in and of itself, and of course we've spoken before, but the incredible focus and force with which you have just blown the barn doors off with the podcast, which is really a service to people. So I am happy to have you here, thrilled to be spending time in person after COVID and recording remotely. So we have a ton to dive into, and hopefully I will not be the, the hero with clay feet, [laughs] as they say. It's all downhill from here as far as what I can do in the conversation.

   3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman5:01

      No, no, no.

   4. TFTim Ferriss5:01

      But I thought we could begin with perhaps revisiting in some respects our last conversation. Not to rehash it, but to simply ask the question, since we last spoke, which was a while ago, I guess it was about maybe two years ago, what have you changed your mind on and what have you doubled down on, if you have answers to both of those?

   5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman5:24

      I'll start with what I've doubled down on. I've doubled down on the idea, which perhaps I stated last time we spoke and perhaps not, but I certainly believe that our state of mind and body at any point in time is strongly dictated by our state of mind and body in the hours and days prior to that. And on the one hand, people are gonna hear that and say, "Well, duh." You know, if you're sleep deprived, you're gonna feel like garbage, and if you're well-rested, you'll feel great. That's kind of the top contour of it.

   6. TFTim Ferriss5:56

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman5:57

      But when one looks at the neuroscience, for instance, of sleep- You start to realize that, you know, the amount of rapid eye movement sleep that you're gonna get in any 90-minute bout of sleep, 'cause your sleep is broken up into these 90-minute segments more or less, is strongly dictated by the ratio of slow-wave sleep, AKA deep sleep, and rapid eye movement sleep that you had in the previous 90-minute bout. And then when you start to look at the research in terms of waking states, you start to find that your ability to be focused, say, for a bout of work in the morning or the afternoon or a creative brainstorm session or, I don't know, to maybe drill into some personal issue that you're dealing with during therapy or just on a walk or while journaling, is not a square wave function. You know, none of us should sit down and expect ourselves to just drop into that state. Mm-hmm. Much of our ability to move into that state effectively, whatever effective means, right? Whatever the target or goal of that bout, as I'm calling it is, is going to be dictated by what happened in the previous moments and hours. And so when I zoom out from that, what I've doubled down on is this idea that there are just a core set of foundational things that we have to re-up every 24 hours. You know, I think thanks to the incredibly hard work of Dr. Matt Walker at Berkeley- Mm-hmm ... right? The Sleep Diplomat on Twitter, right? [laughs] It's such a great name 'cause it's so appropriate. I mean, a decade ago or so, you know, it was like, "I'll sleep when I'm dead." That was the, the dominant mentality out there, and yeah, sleep's great, but you know, getting stuff done is more important. I mean, Matt has really impressed on everybody that our mental health, our physical health, and our ability to perform is so strongly dependent on our ability to get quality sleep, maybe not every night of our life. I, I mean, we have to be realistic, but that sleep is vital. So a hat tip is insufficient. So sleep is critical, but sleep is just one of about, I would say, five things that really set the, the buoyancy or the foundation upon which our nervous system is able to accomplish these transitions that I'm talking about at all. Mm-hmm. And those five things are sleep, right? In the absence of quality sleep over two or three days, you're just gonna fall to pieces. In the presence of quality sufficient sleep over two or three days, you're gonna function at an amazing level. There's a gain of function and a loss of function there, right? Mm-hmm. It's not just if you sleep poorly, you function less well. You sleep better, you function much better. Mm-hmm. So sleep, I would say, is at the top of the list. Nutrients, you know, and there are, you can think macronutrients, and so your carnivores are only eating meat, and your vegans are only eating plants, and your, your omnivores, which is I think probably 90% of the world, is eating a combination of those. But, you know, quality nutrients, I think that when I look at all of the, the nutrition literature and arguments out there, it seems that everyone can agree on one thing, which is that probably 80% or more of our nutrition should come from unprocessed or minimally processed sources. Minimally processed would require some cooking, but could survive on the shelf, as opposed to packaged foods or highly palatable foods. So you've got sleep, nutrients, but then we should also put in micronutrients, and this is where maybe we'll get into a discussion about supplementation. I think that there's, uh, supplementation or supplements is a bit of a misnomer because it implies vitamin supplements, and people say, "Well, can't you get all that from food?" Mm. Or, "That whey protein, isn't that just food? Wouldn't you be better off with a chicken breast?" Okay, well then when you talk about convenience and the, you know, absorption, okay, but then there is this huge category of things ranging from the kind of esoterically named things like ashwagandha and shilajit and tongkat ali and Fadogia agrestis, right? I'm in. I'll buy all of them. I mean, it sounds... Exactly. All the herbal stuff, right? Yeah. You're not gonna get that from food. Yeah, totally. But this so, should we call them supplements at all? Yeah. So let's just say the second thing is nutrients, and that includes macronutrients, and that includes micronutrients as well. Mm-hmm. So those two things. Then the third would be movement, right? And this has also been an enormous transition in the last, I think, just five years, which is not just for people interested in bodybuilding or power lifting or for competitive athletes, but now it seems everybody, including the elderly, understand that you need a combination of cardiovascular exercise and you need resistance training, whether or not it's with body weight or weights or machines, et cetera, that you need both. I mean, not a week goes by without seeing an article in one of the major publications out there, standard media, let's call it traditional media, we'll be nice to them, traditional media, that highlights some study showing that, you know, resistance training in elderly people can offset Alzheimer's or, you know, or that, as our friend Peter Attia has pointed out so many times, that many of the end of life-creating injuries are due to people, older people stepping down, the eccentric movements. Mm-hmm. Okay, so, so you need movement. That's the third category. Fourth, I will argue, and I like to think that maybe I've helped this movement, if you wanna call it that, is light. In particular- Mm-hmm ... sunlight in the early part and throughout the middle of the day, and trying to minimize the amount of artificial light that you're exposed to in the evening and late night hours, most of the time, 'cause you have to live life. Just fundamental. And then the last category that's important is social connection, AKA relationships. Let's just call it relationships, because that can include relationship to self. Mm-hmm. So those things set up the core foundation, and I think one way to think about them is just as a list. Another is to think about them in terms of a, of a schedule basis, and that's how I've really doubled down, is I realize that every 24 hours I need to invest something into each one of those things. Mm-hmm. So I think that, you know, 10 years ago or five years ago or even two years ago, I used to think, "Okay, like, what's the workout split?" Or, "How am I going to eat for the next couple of months?" You know, "What am I trying to optimize for? Is it muscle? Is it fat loss? Is it just maintaining? Is it energy? Is it focus?" That's all fine and good, but sleep, nutrients, exercise, light, relationships, those really establish the foundation of what I consider to be all of the elements that create our ability to move As seamlessly as possible between the states that we happen to be in and the states we desire to be in.

   8. TFTim Ferriss12:12

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman12:13

      And when I zoom out and I think about what are the major struggles that I, and it seems most everyone deals with, it's like how to get more focused. Okay, so we can talk about, you know, what do you take? What's the supplement, you know? But you have to say, "Well, how are you sleeping? Have you done any exercise?" You really always find yourself, or I find myself, taking 10 steps back and then moving through the sequence of five things before you can even begin to talk about whether or not taking 3 or 600 milligrams of alpha-GPC, and how often to do that, and does it work, and yes, it works, et cetera. But those things really set the foundation, and so I like to think of those five things every single day. You have to re-up on sleep every 24 hours, or try to. You have to re-up on movement every 24 hours. You can go a day or so immobile, but you better move the next day, right?

   10. TFTim Ferriss12:57

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman12:57

       And ideally, you're moving seven days a week. Doesn't necessarily mean train to failure and running marathon seven days a week. You can Goggins your life or you can not Goggins your life. For those of you who don't know, I'm referring to David Goggins there, by the way, who seems to never stop moving, although I just learned meditates two hours every night.

   12. TFTim Ferriss13:14

       Hmm.

   13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman13:14

       Every night, and I'm inclined to believe when he says that, that-

   14. TFTim Ferriss13:16

       [laughs]

   15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman13:16

       ... he indeed does that. You need nutrients, even if they come from stored sources, even if you're gonna fast. You're gonna fast for a day or two? Okay, fine. I've done that. I know you've done that. You s- I would put hydration under nutrients, too.

   16. TFTim Ferriss13:28

       Mm-hmm.

   17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman13:29

       So you can derive nutrients from stored fat, protein, et cetera, glycogen. Light, you're gonna need that every 24 hours. You're going to need sunlight, even if through cloud cover. And you're going to want to avoid bright artificial lights at night. Not every night, but most nights of your life. And then that relationships one is the one that maybe we can go into in a little bit more depth at some point, but it requires focus. It requires attention every 24 hours.

   18. TFTim Ferriss13:55

       Hmm.

   19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman13:55

       Now, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to see friends, talk to friends, text friends every 24 hours. Some people are far more introverted than others. But then you're working on your relationship to yourself in that solo time, and hopefully when you're spending time with others as well, that has some internal repercussions. So if I've doubled down on anything, it's the understanding that there is no so-called optimization. There is n- no real interest, at least from me, in trying to layer in other things unless I'm paying attention to each and every one of those things every 24 hours. You have to re-up on each and every one of those five things every 24 hours. And if you don't, you can get by for a day or two, but pretty soon you're gonna hit that wall where you won't be able to do any of the things that most people are actually seeking to do.

   20. TFTim Ferriss14:41

       Mm-hmm.

   21. AHDr. Andrew Huberman14:42

       And the last thing I'll say about that is, you know, I think people hear a list of those five things and they think, "Gosh, okay, well, m- that must be nice for you, Andrew and Tim. You know, you wake up, you look at sunlight, you guys don't have kids, you know? Like, don't have to worry about kids running around. You don't have to... You know, you can exercise." There are ways of layering in the, the protocols that re-up, as I'm referring to it, these five things every 24 hours, that also include other people in your life, kids, pets, et cetera. Exercise certainly can include that as well. But I would argue that there is no showing up properly for yourself and for the other people in your life unless these things are being handled. And it's not about becoming soft and cushy. It's about becoming quite resilient and effective. And I think this, for me, is the... It seems so simple, but as our friend Paul Conti said to me recently, he said, you know, after all the analysis and pouring through things and the complicated notions of the s- subconscious, he's a psychiatrist after all, you know, in the end, really great mental health is about simple practices, like first principles of self-care. So to which I raised my hand and said, "Well, like, what is a first principle of self-care? I'm a biologist after all." And he said, "Aha, it's basically the things that we were just talking about, is those five things." And so I, I'm doubling down, I'm tripling down on those as essential to the point where nothing else really happens for very long unless those five things are tended to.

   22. TFTim Ferriss16:11

       Question.

4. 16:12 – 24:42

   Making movement matter.

   1. TFTim Ferriss16:12

      Of those five, let's just say if you had to pick one that you're, neglecting may be a strong word, but underweighting, that you are now weighting differently, what would it be, and what have you done? What have you added or changed or subtracted?

   2. AHDr. Andrew Huberman16:29

      Mm-hmm. I'll have to pick two.

   3. TFTim Ferriss16:32

      Let's do both, then.

   4. AHDr. Andrew Huberman16:33

      Yeah. The two are movement, really changed the way that I train and exercise to some extent, and, and, and actually my whole philosophy on what's possible in terms of training and how to incorporate it into a week in a way that really works to build strength and endurance and feel really good in one's body all the time. And then the other one is relationships, which probably reflects my place in life, you know, where I'm 47 now. I've chosen to delay having a family, but that's a primary focus. But also having done a lot of personal work, you know, in, toward my mid-40s, you know, I thought I w- I was, quote, unquote, there, and then realizing that-

   5. TFTim Ferriss17:21

      It's a trap door [laughs]

   6. AHDr. Andrew Huberman17:22

      ... it's a trap door. And then realizing that there, I guess here again I'll, I'll use language that Paul uses, which is that there were some unresolved core conflicts, and this, this idea of core conflicts is, is really, I think, the most appropriate way to, to put the important psychological stuff that people need to work through. Everyone has them. Many people have trauma. Not everyone has trauma, but as defined as an event that fundamentally changes the way that your nervous system works such that you function less well-

   7. TFTim Ferriss17:58

      Mm-hmm

   8. AHDr. Andrew Huberman17:58

      ... in some or many domains of life. Again, I robbed that definition from Paul Conti, and I'm far less eloquent than he is in delivering it. But realizing that there's still some core conflicts that I needed to resolve, and I've been- I'm going whole hog on that and it's, it's been interesting to say the least.

   9. TFTim Ferriss18:16

      So let's start with perhaps the easier one, movement.

   10. AHDr. Andrew Huberman18:20

       Mm-hmm.

   11. TFTim Ferriss18:21

       What have you implemented? What have you embraced or cut back on in the movement category? And I'm very interested in this personally because I have really taken this as one of a few of those five to focus on myself in the last, I would say, year. 'Cause I've, I've done a lot of training, let's just say in the last 10 years, but I've not done a lot of competition, and I miss developing athleticism. And if I take as an assumption that we have largely evolved to move through space [laughs]

   12. AHDr. Andrew Huberman18:57

       Mm-hmm

   13. TFTim Ferriss18:58

       ... to actually move and navigate, ski touring is just one example. So putting on skins, these are ... Actually, they used to be actual animal skins, now they're synthetic, but you put on skins on the bottom of skis and you effectively NordicTrack your way [laughs] up the mountain with switchbacks, and then you take them off, you do a transition, you ski down, and you rinse and repeat. But the experience of being, if you choose your environments, in a location where you get lots of sunlight in the morning and early afternoon, symmetrical exercise, movement where you're not too heavily weighting one side or the other. There's, there are benefits to asymmetrical types of exercise, but I have found this to just be absolutely, I don't think it's an overstatement to say, revolutionary for my physical and mental wellbeing.

   14. AHDr. Andrew Huberman19:50

       Mm-hmm.

   15. TFTim Ferriss19:51

       And you also get, in this particular case, for me, a degree of hip extension that I really just do not get in my day-to-day existence otherwise. So I'm, I'm putting that out there just as an example and an explanation for why I wanna dig a little bit deeper on the movement side. So what have you ended up implementing?

   16. AHDr. Andrew Huberman20:11

       Well, first of all, l- let me just say that your statement about movement being so fundamental to who we are as a species, um, the Nobel Prize-winning physiologist, is r- really what he was, Sherrington, said that, you know, the final common path of the entire nervous system is movement.

   17. TFTim Ferriss20:27

       Hmm.

   18. AHDr. Andrew Huberman20:28

       Which I sometimes think about because, you know, we often think that our emotions somehow, uh, impact the world, but they really don't except insofar as we say things or do things, right?

   19. TFTim Ferriss20:40

       Mm-hmm.

   20. AHDr. Andrew Huberman20:41

       The, the other way to put this, uh, is that evolutionary biologists will say, you know, there is no fossil record for the brain, right?

   21. TFTim Ferriss20:49

       Hmm.

   22. AHDr. Andrew Huberman20:49

       If you look at brains, uh, it's only what people actually did with the internal architecture of their brain. It all boils down to movement or vision, I would say, 'cause I'm a vision scientist. But when you look cubic millimeter by cubic millimeter through the brain, if you take the circuits devoted to movement and the circuits devoted to vision, you've got about 75% of the human brain.

   23. TFTim Ferriss21:07

       Mm-hmm.

   24. AHDr. Andrew Huberman21:07

       [laughs] So that's, that's a lot. The rest is important too, of course. Movement-wise, okay, so we did a guest series, this was a six-episode guest series with Dr. Andy Galpin, who's a professor of kinesiology, Cal State Fullerton, and his laboratory works on, does everything from muscle biopsy all the way up to working with competitive athletes, you know. So they'll do deadlifts or boxing or whatever it is, or running, students running on treadmills, huge range of subjects, and then they'll, you know, stab out some muscle and a little core muscle and do bi- you've had this done, right? This was in The 4-Hour Body. [laughs]

   25. TFTim Ferriss21:38

       Yeah, I did, I did a muscle biopsy and videotaped the entire process in, at the Sports Science Institute of South Africa.

   26. AHDr. Andrew Huberman21:47

       Yeah.

   27. TFTim Ferriss21:47

       Yeah. Tim Tartar is what I called it when it came out.

   28. AHDr. Andrew Huberman21:49

       So good.

   29. TFTim Ferriss21:50

       Turns out my muscle enzymes are, if it's possible to be below some type of graph representing Homer Simpson, like citrate synthase and these [laughs] various elements that would be very helpful for endurance, which I seem to lack.

   30. AHDr. Andrew Huberman22:04

       You're built for explosiveness.
5. 24:42 – 26:43

   Striving to “be like a mule” on Sunday.

   1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman24:42

      My training week starts on Sunday, because Sunday sits leftmost on the, on the calendar. [laughs] Sunday, I make it a focused effort to move as much as possible, ideally outdoors. I'm thinking endurance. I essentially wanna be like a mule.

   2. TFTim Ferriss25:00

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman25:01

      I'm just thinking-

   4. TFTim Ferriss25:02

      Well-

   5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman25:02

      ... be like a mule. I actually have this shirt-

   6. TFTim Ferriss25:03

      [laughs] That's gonna be-

   7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman25:04

      That, that-

   8. TFTim Ferriss25:04

      That's gonna be in the headline-

   9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman25:05

      Yeah

   10. TFTim Ferriss25:05

       ... of this episode. [laughs]

   11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman25:06

       Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, exactly. I actually have this shirt that I sometimes like to wear on those days. It's not a black button down shirt, but it has a picture of a sloth and it's crossing its three sloth fingers like Wolverine.

   12. TFTim Ferriss25:16

       [laughs]

   13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman25:16

       And I get... That's, like, what I'm trying to embody. I'm trying to embody the sloth.

   14. TFTim Ferriss25:19

       [laughs]

   15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman25:20

       So what I'll do on that day is, because sometimes it's a social day with other people in my life, if I'm on my own, I'll throw on a 8 or 10-pound weight vest.

   16. TFTim Ferriss25:28

       Mm-hmm.

   17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman25:28

       They have these thinner ones now that aren't these mirror vests that, where, you know, you don't look like you're in law enforcement or you're trying to pretend you're in the SEAL teams, which I-

   18. TFTim Ferriss25:38

       Yeah

   19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman25:38

       ... I'm not and never was. But they have these thinner ones that sit a bit more flush. I forget the brand name now, but I don't have any relationship to them. I'll get it for you, but I really like this one. And I'll head out for a, probably a 75-minute to a 90-minute slow jog with some hills, and I'll try and nasal breathe the whole time. I'll often listen to a podcast or a book. Sometimes I'll just let my mind drift. That's if I'm on my own. If I'm with other people, what I will do is I'll fill up a backpack with a bunch of heavy stuff, usually some water in there too, and drink it as I go, and I'll do three or four, five hours of just hiking and just trying to be outside as much as possible. The specific goal of that day is endurance. Just keep going. And, and what I notice is, because of the other things I do in the previous days, the, the 10 or 20 minutes which I, you know, at the, that come at the start really suck. Like, I either wanna go faster, like these little aches and things. But what's amazing is somewhere in that 25, 30-minute period, you start to feel really good. You actually start to adapt to it right then. You kinda go, "Okay, this is about the heart rate I'll use. This is about the breathing rate."

6. 26:43 – 30:31

   The neurological processes of cultivating the physique.

   1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman26:43

      So this is zone-

   2. TFTim Ferriss26:43

      So what, what is happening at that point-

   3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman26:45

      Yeah

   4. TFTim Ferriss26:45

      ... physiologically?

   5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman26:46

      Yeah. Well-

   6. TFTim Ferriss26:47

      Or neurologically or both?

   7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman26:48

      Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned neurologically. I think physiologically they're the standard things that happen during exercise. You're getting warmer, you know, so joints are more fluid. Your cardiovascular system is able to fuel the relevant muscles, but not, you're not shuttling too much fuel to specific muscle groups, et cetera. Because of course I could be stressed when I start that, I could be relaxed, I could be tired, depending on how I slept the night before. But neurologically, what happens is really important, and we know this from data. What you're starting to do is you're starting to incorporate what are called central pattern generators. Central pattern generators are what allow you to engage in a repeated movement without voluntary attention to it. Very different than, you know, say, squatting or front squatting or doing curls or something, where you're trying to focus on each rep. Fundamentally different-

   8. TFTim Ferriss27:34

      So it's like the autopilot button appears on your-

   9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman27:36

      That's right

   10. TFTim Ferriss27:37

       ... steering wheel after-

   11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman27:38

       That's right

   12. TFTim Ferriss27:38

       ... 30 minutes.

   13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman27:39

       That's right. And at that point, your mind can really attend to other things. And of course, as your body warms up, you're also able to achieve much more output, so you, you actually are getting better and more efficient as you progress. Now, that, that's weird. Most exercise doesn't work that way.

   14. TFTim Ferriss27:57

       It is weird, but as a intrepid pseudo-endurance athlete who's at least really embraced the ski training, I mean, I did, I've done-

   15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman28:05

       Mm

   16. TFTim Ferriss28:05

       ... a lot of it in the last six weeks. The first 30 to 45 minutes are generally terrible for everybody.

   17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman28:13

       Right.

   18. TFTim Ferriss28:13

       And then you click into a rhythm and you feel like you've accessed an extra set of batteries.

   19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman28:21

       Yeah. It's neural.

   20. TFTim Ferriss28:22

       Mm-hmm.

   21. AHDr. Andrew Huberman28:23

       And I think Andy would agree it's neural. You're engaging the proper amount of what are called upper motor- you have upper motor neurons and lower motor neurons. Lower motor neurons reside in the ventral spinal cord. They're the ones that degenerate in ALS. They're the ones that fortunately most people don't degenerate and cause contractions of the muscle fibers. They are directed by upper motor neurons, which are the ones in your brain that allow you to generate voluntary movement. However, the upper motor neurons and the lower motor neurons are happy to engage in a, in a central pattern generator-type circuit-

   22. TFTim Ferriss28:55

       Mm-hmm

   23. AHDr. Andrew Huberman28:55

       ... if you carry out something repetitively for long enough. So as you are able to take your mind off of the, the voluntary parts of the movement, it just becomes easier. And what you end up finding is that your system becomes very, very good at doing, you know, for me, it's small steps or, you know, or jogging. I mean, I'm not going excruciatingly slow, but for some people it seem really slow. But that run or that long-weighted hike accomplishes the, the endurance piece. It checks off the box of the zone 2 cardio requirement, not all of it for the week, but a lot of it.

   24. TFTim Ferriss29:31

       And for the lay folks out there, zone 2 would be, you could have a conversation, but you really don't want to-

   25. AHDr. Andrew Huberman29:37

       That's right

   26. TFTim Ferriss29:37

       ... as Peter might describe-

   27. AHDr. Andrew Huberman29:38

       Right

   28. TFTim Ferriss29:38

       ... Peter 2.

   29. AHDr. Andrew Huberman29:39

       Yeah.

   30. TFTim Ferriss29:39

       Mm-hmm.
7. 30:31 – 45:06

   Monday.

   1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman30:31

      that the state that we're in on Monday has a lot to do with what we did on Sunday.

   2. TFTim Ferriss30:34

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman30:35

      So I'm trying to optimize for Monday in some ways too, but it's really about endurance. Then Monday is, the goal for me is to train my legs, just get a leg workout on Monday. First of all, I just like the way that sounds to myself, like leg workout on Monday, but it also sets up the work week really nicely. Here's why. I'm gonna train my legs the way that's always worked best for me for training, which is a warmup and then two to three, maybe four hard sets, kind of Mike Mentzer-

   4. TFTim Ferriss31:02

      Mm-hmm

   5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman31:03

      ... or Dorian Yates. Not with four reps and all of that, but what we're talking about is warming up and then doing hard sets that are heavier or more repetitions than the last time.

   6. TFTim Ferriss31:14

      And just so I'm clear-

   7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman31:16

      Yeah

   8. TFTim Ferriss31:16

      ... are we talking about multiple sets of the same exercise, single sets of four different exercises? What are we talking about?

   9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman31:22

      We're talking about two to four sets, but usually two to three, of two exercises per muscle group, and I'll explain it, what that is in a moment. I should mention that the reason for training legs is that everyone should train legs. So the, you know, large muscle groups, I'm trying to maintain some lower body strength or build lower body strength and explosiveness. You know, the data that I see on longevity and just simply ability to perform different sports and to just feel strong throughout the body-

   10. TFTim Ferriss31:50

       Mm

   11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman31:50

       ... is strongly rooted in the legs.

   12. TFTim Ferriss31:52

       Yeah.

   13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman31:52

       You know, the... So don't skip leg day.

   14. TFTim Ferriss31:54

       Legs and hips, folks.

   15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman31:54

       Guys, yeah. Exactly.

   16. TFTim Ferriss31:55

       Feed the wolves.

   17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman31:56

       It's kind of funny how glutes have become the new biceps.

   18. TFTim Ferriss31:58

       [laughs]

   19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman31:59

       You know? Like this is like what I heard, like glutes are the new biceps. Growing up, this was not the case.

   20. TFTim Ferriss32:03

       [laughs]

   21. AHDr. Andrew Huberman32:04

       You know, it was like, uh, '90s, everyone was like these like waify... You know, I grew up with, uh, I went to a school of, like waify, hacky sackaroo dudes with like the flowy hair. I wasn't one of those.

   22. TFTim Ferriss32:12

       Mm.

   23. AHDr. Andrew Huberman32:12

       All the girls liked those guys. [laughs]

   24. TFTim Ferriss32:14

       [laughs]

   25. AHDr. Andrew Huberman32:14

       A bunch of skateboarders, you know, and it was the kind of waif era. You know, I don't know what's, what it is now. It doesn't matter, but train your legs, folks.

   26. TFTim Ferriss32:21

       [laughs]

   27. AHDr. Andrew Huberman32:21

       Like having strong legs is, is great and it-

   28. TFTim Ferriss32:23

       Or learn to hacky sack.

   29. AHDr. Andrew Huberman32:24

       E- exactly.

   30. TFTim Ferriss32:25

       If you're [laughs]
8. 45:06 – 46:17

   An aside about cheat day.

   1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman45:06

      for your Monday workout.

   2. TFTim Ferriss45:06

      Yeah.

   3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman45:06

      There are all sorts of ways this layers together.

   4. TFTim Ferriss45:08

      Cookies. [laughs]

   5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman45:09

      [laughs] I'm not a cookie guy. Seriously.

   6. TFTim Ferriss45:10

      I'm just joking. [laughs]

   7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman45:11

      For me it's like pizza is the... I do love pizza. No cheat days anymore for me however. I haven't done one in a while. I'm actually thinking of going back on 4-Hour Body. Just try it and do it. Ought to still work.

   8. TFTim Ferriss45:22

      I said cookies. I'll make a very embarrassing admission, which is I am going to be going back onto strict slow carb.

   9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman45:32

      Okay.

   10. TFTim Ferriss45:32

       And so I had these incredible cookies last night. We're not gonna spend a lot of time on this, 'cause we do need to get to today. But it was sort of my last hurrah before locking down the fort. So yes, I'm getting back.

   11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman45:44

       Great.

   12. TFTim Ferriss45:44

       I'm getting back on it.

   13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman45:45

       Let me know. I'll start, I'll start with you.

   14. TFTim Ferriss45:47

       [laughs] All right.

   15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman45:47

       Lots of stories about cheat days. My, my ex-girlfriend and I, we used to do the cheat days together, and at, at one point, because I'll blame myself, we were in couples therapy and we're asking like, "So describe a week for yourself." [laughs] And she's like, "Well, and then on Sunday we're eating like eight croissants, and then we're doing..." And the, the therapist was looking at us, "Excuse me." I'm like spitting here. Laughing so hard. Trying not to laugh. Like, "What in the world is this?" You know. But we had a good time with it. She was one of these mutants that could just eat anything-

   16. TFTim Ferriss46:16

       Yeah

   17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman46:16

       ... drink anything,

9. 46:17 – 48:48

   Tuesday.

   1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman46:17

      and feel fine the next day and, you know-

   2. TFTim Ferriss46:19

      Yeah

   3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman46:19

      ... never put on an ounce.

   4. TFTim Ferriss46:19

      I know the type.

   5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman46:20

      Yeah. So the Tuesday is very different. Tuesday, I don't wanna call it a recovery day, but Tuesday I'm doing something really different. First of all, my legs need recovery, so what I'll do is substantial amounts of deliberate heat exposure and deliberate cold exposure. Yes, I do cold showers in the morning first thing nowadays. Yes, it is a bad idea to do cold water immersion after hypertrophy training. So just for the record, you don't wanna get into an ice bath after hypertrophy training, in the six hours after hypertrophy training, 'cause it can blunt the hypertrophy.

   6. TFTim Ferriss46:55

      Hmm.

   7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman46:55

      It, it blocks the inflammation, which is exactly what you want to trigger the adaptation of hypertrophy. But Tuesday is really about getting the maximum effect of heat exposure and cold exposure, and when I've, I've done multiple episodes on each one of those. I learned about deliberate cold exposure from you, so thank you, Tim. I do a protocol which is pretty intense, designed to amplify growth hormone, stimulate a bunch of mood, positive mood-promoting hormones that last not just days but weeks, say the literature, and just get better at it. So I'll do 20 minutes of sauna, hot sauna.

   8. TFTim Ferriss47:30

      What does hot mean?

   9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman47:30

      I'm up to like 260 now.

   10. TFTim Ferriss47:32

       Okay. [laughs]

   11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman47:32

       260. But I worked up to that. You know, you can check out the banya. I'll give a plug to these folks. There's Spa 88 on Wall Street-

   12. TFTim Ferriss47:38

       [laughs]

   13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman47:38

       ... in New York. They are amazing. They are incredible. That's... They have a hot-

   14. TFTim Ferriss47:43

       They have-

   15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman47:43

       ... Russian sauna

   16. TFTim Ferriss47:43

       ... very hot sauna.

   17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman47:44

       And Archimedes Banya in San Francisco-

   18. TFTim Ferriss47:46

       Fantastic

   19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman47:46

       ... is great. A couple of notes about that one. It's clothing optional. I wear my swim trunks-

   20. TFTim Ferriss47:52

       Boo

   21. AHDr. Andrew Huberman47:52

       ... when I go. [laughs] Just kidding.

   22. TFTim Ferriss47:53

       How are you gonna show off those glutes [laughs] you're working so hard on?

   23. AHDr. Andrew Huberman47:56

       But it, but it is, so just know what you're getting into. It's coed and clothing optional. And it is in Hunters Point, Bayview, which is a rough neighborhood.

   24. TFTim Ferriss48:04

       Yeah, I wouldn't go for a jog.

   25. AHDr. Andrew Huberman48:05

       Yeah. Don't leave anything in your car, but don't do that anywhere in San Francisco now.

   26. TFTim Ferriss48:08

       Yeah.

   27. AHDr. Andrew Huberman48:08

       So 20 minutes in the sauna, very hot. Three to five minutes in the cold plunge up to the neck. Back into the sauna for 20 minutes. Back into the cold plunge for three to five minutes. Back into the sauna for 20 minutes. Back into the cold plunge for three to five minutes. It's work, but it's amazing in the sense that you recover very well from the leg day. You- Generate all the hormone neurotransmitter type of adaptations that one wants, and you get very, very good at tolerating heat and cold. And I should mention, during these times, if there isn't someone else there, I'm listening to books, I'm thinking, I'm putting this work and time to use.

10. 48:48 – 50:39

    Wednesday.

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman48:48

       So there's multiple things going on there. Then Wednesday, I do one of two things. I'm either going to do a shorter duration than Sunday cardiovascular training workout. So I might do, I'm thinking about five minutes of warmup, and then about 25 to 30 minutes of usually running for me, where I'm just trying to get out and cover as much distance as I can at a fast clip, but steady, so I'm not sprint, stop, sprint, stop. That's typically what I'll do on Wednesday, although if my legs are still a little bit sore, that's when I'll train, and here the bodybuilders are just gonna go, "Ugh," they're gonna scoff. I train what I call torso. What do I do? I'm trying to get pushing through the chest and shoulders. I'm trying to pull for the back. I already got my lower back with the glute hammer raises.

    2. TFTim Ferriss49:31

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman49:31

       So what I tend to do is overhead shoulder presses after a warmup, two to three sets, working sets, or maybe four. I like ring dips and dips these days. Those are hard for me, but I, you know, two or three work sets of those. So chest, shoulders, and I'm gonna upset some people here, but I don't tend to train back every week. I do it every other week because just I have some genetic abnormality where those grow really easily, and I can throw proportions off really quickly. But I might do three or four sets of chins, sort of max rep chins, slow, with slow eccentric movements, the lowering as well.

    4. TFTim Ferriss50:06

       Now, slow eccentric, four seconds, 10 seconds? What are we talking about?

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman50:10

       Yeah, usually about four or five seconds-

    6. TFTim Ferriss50:12

       Mm-hmm

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman50:12

       ... and then slowly pulling up, contracting whatever muscle group. So all of the movements are done at trying to move as much weight as possible as quickly as possible on the concentric phase, and then lowering it anywhere from two to four seconds, kind of loading it like a spring, and then trying to explode. I want strength, I want explosiveness, and some hypertrophy sneaks in because I'm working in that, you know, five to eight rep range.

    8. TFTim Ferriss50:33

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman50:34

       So that's what I call torso because it's chest, shoulders, back. If I, every other

11. 50:39 – 57:13

    A strong neck is more than just an appealing aesthetic.

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman50:39

       week I'll throw in those chins. And I think everyone has a muscle group like this, where if they train, it just grows like a weed. But I wanna keep proportions right, strength proportions as well. And I do train my neck that day as well. I know you wrestled.

    2. TFTim Ferriss50:53

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman50:53

       I, I can tell very easily looking at somebody whether or not they need neck work or not. If your neck kind of comes down right where your jaw is-

    4. TFTim Ferriss51:02

       Mm-hmm

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman51:02

       ... you don't need to do a lot of neck work.

    6. TFTim Ferriss51:04

       Yeah.

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman51:04

       Right? You don't look like a head placed on top of a little neck. Your neck is actually, you know, Laird Hamilton's neck is out-

    8. TFTim Ferriss51:09

       [laughs]

    9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman51:10

       ... to his, the lobes of his ears, genuinely.

    10. TFTim Ferriss51:12

        Yeah. [laughs]

    11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman51:12

        Right? Danny Way, great skateboard too.

    12. TFTim Ferriss51:14

        Yeah, yeah.

    13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman51:14

        He trains his neck quite a lot. He broke his neck, surf-

    14. TFTim Ferriss51:16

        Yeah, yeah, yeah

    15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman51:16

        ... years ago. So having a strong neck, why is that so important? Well, it's important because you want a strong spine, and it's the upper portion of your spine. The other thing that I notice that it does is it completely changes my psychology to train my neck. I just naturally stand more upright.

    16. TFTim Ferriss51:32

        Yeah.

    17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman51:33

        I find it easier to look people in the eye. It's not hard for me to look people directly in the eye when I speak to them, but I find I just have, like, my posture and presence is just better-

    18. TFTim Ferriss51:40

        Mm-hmm

    19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman51:40

        ... in a chair or standing when I train my neck, and I think it's because my head isn't, let's just use the word again, it's not, you know, flaccid, falling of the chin towards the chest.

    20. TFTim Ferriss51:48

        [laughs]

    21. AHDr. Andrew Huberman51:49

        That word just freaks everybody out. You want flaccid feet, you don't want a flaccid neck.

    22. TFTim Ferriss51:54

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    23. AHDr. Andrew Huberman51:54

        So neck work is very important.

    24. TFTim Ferriss51:55

        How do you work your neck? I actually recently bought, I've been thinking about it for decades, I bought a four-way neck machine.

    25. AHDr. Andrew Huberman52:02

        Mm-hmm.

    26. TFTim Ferriss52:02

        And it's actually, I got a-

    27. AHDr. Andrew Huberman52:04

        Wait, did you get the full four-way neck machine?

    28. TFTim Ferriss52:05

        I was gonna get, like, a Hammer or one of these-

    29. AHDr. Andrew Huberman52:07

        Those are great

    30. TFTim Ferriss52:08

        ... giant contraptions. I actually bought, and look, do your homework, folks, because you can hurt yourself on these things-
12. 57:13 – 57:28

    Thursday.

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman57:13

       then I'll do that weight workout I just described, torso, on Thursday.

    2. TFTim Ferriss57:16

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman57:17

       Or I'll swap them.

    4. TFTim Ferriss57:18

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman57:18

       So there's some flexibility built into the week, travel, et cetera. By the way, the cardiovascular workouts can be done in the morning or the evening, but I always prefer to do them in the morning and just get it done with.

13. 57:28 – 58:36

    Friday.

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman57:28

       Then Friday is a really important day, because Friday is the day that I do a short workout, usually only about three minutes of warmup and about 12 minutes of training, and the goal is to get my heart rate as high as I possibly can. I learned this from Andy Galpin. Just increasing VO2 max, getting those really fast twist- muscle fibers. My favorite way to do this is I'll get on the assault bike, which are the ones with the handles with the fan-

    2. TFTim Ferriss57:53

       Mm-hmm

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman57:53

       ... which is not designed to keep you cool, it's designed to create resistance, folks, and do 20-second on sprint, 10-second rest, 20-second on, 10-second rest.

    4. TFTim Ferriss58:01

       Tabata style.

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman58:02

       Tabata-type thing for six to eight rounds, and then what I like to do is take a band and tie it to something, like a chin-up bar or something, and I'll squat down and jump, and I'll do as high jumping as I possibly can, but I actually control the eccentric. I'm holding the band as I come down. And so I learned from Peter Attia, I've learned from Andy Galpin, that our ability to jump and land is strongly correlated with physical longevity. Or you could do broad jump.

    6. TFTim Ferriss58:29

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman58:29

       So you could do a bunch of broad jumps. You could do some HIIT workout. And then I'm just showered and out the door to go do, do my work-

14. 58:36 – 59:29

    Saturday.

    1. TFTim Ferriss58:36

       Mm-hmm

    2. AHDr. Andrew Huberman58:36

       ... or to work. So it's a really short workout. And then Saturday is the fun one, because I still enjoy this. I'll go into the gym in the morning, usually it's mid-morning, and I'll do kind of small muscle groups, biceps, triceps, rear delts. I'll do another tib and calf workout, little bit lighter than the one on leg day, because leg day is coming in two days-

    3. TFTim Ferriss58:58

       Mm-hmm

    4. AHDr. Andrew Huberman58:58

       ... and the next day I'm doing that long hike. So that, that day is really to round out the smaller muscle groups that need work. And I have short torso, long arms, and so torso muscles grow very easily for me, get stronger easily. Long arms, like, you know, they require a little bit more work, so I like to do a dedicated day for that.

    5. TFTim Ferriss59:14

       Mm-hmm.

    6. AHDr. Andrew Huberman59:14

       Same way, warm up plus two to four work sets of two to three exercises. I always include dips at some point during the week, bench dips, tricep extensions with cables, basic stuff, preacher curls-

    7. TFTim Ferriss59:26

       Mm-hmm

    8. AHDr. Andrew Huberman59:26

       ... that kind of incline curls. So very basic stuff.

15. 59:29 – 1:05:14

    A recap of how the days synergize with one another.

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman59:29

       But I just wanna backtrack one step, because I failed to say that Friday the idea is to get that VO2 max up, but guess what? It's also designed to indirectly hit the legs. We hit legs on Monday.

    2. TFTim Ferriss59:39

       Oh, yeah.

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman59:40

       And they've recovered. We now know that protein synthesis maximizes after these training workouts at about 48 hours, and then starts to taper off. Now, you read that, you hear that a lot, especially on social media, and people think you have to hit a muscle group every 48 hours. But no, you hold onto the protein synthesis you generated for another couple of days. So that Friday sprint on the bike workout or sprint on a field workout and jumping is indirectly targeting the quads and calves and hamstrings, and so you're keeping them online for hypertrophy. So when you hear all this, you might think, "Gosh, that's a lot of working out." But what we're really talking about is a long hike with friends or family on Sunday, or by oneself, 90 minutes to three hours. You're talking about an hour workout on Monday morning. You're talking about sitting in the sauna and cold on Tuesday. You're talking about running for 20 or 30 minutes on Wednesday. You're talking about doing some dips and overhead presses, maybe some chins, and a little bit of neck work on Thursday. You're talking about doing a 12-minute workout on Friday, and you're talking about going to the gym for an hour, hour and 15 minutes- ... more casual kind of, I don't wanna call it what it is, but you could call it a vanity workout.

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:00:48

       [laughs]

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:00:48

       I told- I called it that to Joe Rogan, and he was like, "That's ridiculous. Bicep is key muscle group." And I was like, "Give me an example." And he's like, "Well, you know when you're grappling and you're about to choke somebody out?" [laughs] And I was like, "Okay, well, that's you."

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:00:59

       [laughs]

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:00:59

       But he's absolutely right.

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:01:00

       Yeah.

    9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:01:00

       You know, if you've ever fixed a... Yeah, actually, I chipped my tooth really hard once by, I was trying to fix something with a wrench, and you're, you're pulling with your bicep and your arm-

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:01:07

        Yeah

    11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:01:07

        ... toward you, and it completely broke loose and, you know, chipped my tooth. But keep your head out of the way.

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:01:12

        Good thing you train your neck. [laughs]

    13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:01:13

        Yeah, this is mostly a falsie, the, this one front tooth.

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:01:15

        [laughs]

    15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:01:16

        Exactly. Good thing. I could've knocked myself out. But the, but, you know, there's a lot of things that, you know, bicep is good for, forearm strength is good for, so Joe is absolutely right. But I think that when you look at all of that, it's not that much time in the gym.

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:01:27

        Mm-hmm.

    17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:01:27

        You can do all, all of that at home. There are ways to do the leg workout even at home or in natural terrain for the hikes and things. And so it's, that's the, the schedule. And again, if you think about that schedule, each day you're accomplishing is like endurance, leg strength, cold and heat adaptation, and all the neural stuff that goes with that. Torso, keep the torso strong. But here again, and we can say the torso work is indirectly hitting biceps and triceps. Then running for 20 or... Being able to run a couple miles is a good skill, and what you find is that if you trained your legs properly and you give them enough rest for, and the cold and heat really help too, you are so strong on that 20 or 30-minute run. Your tibs are strong. You know, you've, you know, floppy feet, no back pain. You're running with, with vigor. And you go, "Wow," like, "this is great." And so what I've noticed in the last 24 months or so is that I continue to get stronger and better in each of these areas, and supposedly that's not supposed to happen. I'm 47. You know, Attia the other day said, you know, "You and I were both far more physically robust when we were in our teens." I was like, "Speak for yourself." I was getting injured all the time.

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:02:31

        Yeah.

    19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:02:32

        My body hurt. I was unhappy. I was skateboarding then, so I was slamming a lot, but-

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:02:36

        Mm

    21. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:02:37

        ... I find that this routine has really helped me because I think it takes into account the slower recovery. That is just me. My nervous system doesn't recover that quickly. And it also embraces the fact that our nervous system and musculoskeletal system can train for different adaptations simultaneously across the week. Now, the one cap on everything that's vital, and again here a hat tip to Charles Poliquin, is if you start training for longer than 60 minutes with resistance training, cortisol levels go up. You start feeling lousy. You're not sleeping well, or you find you can't sleep enough and you don't recover. So keeping the workouts relatively short has really helped. And then, and then the final thing is that I'm a scientist slash, I guess now podcaster, and I'm not interested in being a competitive athlete, so I don't wanna spend all my time training. I really wanna be able to get the most out of my training routine to feel much better than I would otherwise when I'm doing cognitive work. And I'm a big believer that this workout schedule captures most if not all of the neural circuits that one would want to, to activate. Perhaps the one thing missing from it is there isn't anything in there that's really about dynamic movement in multiple planes. I'm not doing jujitsu. You know, I sometimes play badminton, [laughs] you know, as something. Badminton's fun. I'll do an hour of play type stuff, non-competitive, low-stakes stuff. Big fan of the book Play It Away. I think I learned about that book from your podcast.

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:04:04

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    23. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:04:05

        Charlie-

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:04:06

        Charlie Han.

    25. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:04:06

        Yeah. You know, having an hour a week where you're not trying to get fitter, you're not trying to burn calories or accomplish any adaptation. You're just trying to play and enjoy your ability to en- engage in low stakes, maybe competitive, but generally low-stakes type movement where you're very focused-

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:04:22

        Mm-hmm

    27. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:04:23

        ... which is w- how I define play. That's also great. But that's not really exercise.

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:04:30

        Yeah. Yeah, there's a difference between sometimes recreation and exercise-

    29. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:04:35

        Yeah

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:04:35

        ... if we're talking about provoking adaptations. So I just wanna underscore a few things. One is you talked about nervous system or, you know, central nervous system, CNS recovery, which is, I just wanna make note of that because I think a lot of folks think in terms of muscular recovery but not nervous system recovery. And depending on what you're doing, I mean, certainly that's, that's very important. Question on a few things that I just took notes on. So Ben Patrick, Knees Over Toes, I might need to connect with him at some point.
16. 1:05:14 – 1:08:08

    Nordic curls for boys and girls.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:05:14

       the question that I have. You mentioned Nordic curls-

    2. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:05:17

       Mm-hmm

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:05:17

       ... in passing. What the hell are Nordic curls?

    4. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:05:20

       Yeah. Nordics are a great semi-substitute for the glute ham raise. The glute ham raise allows you to fix your feet and then put your head down towards the floor and go up into a back raise and then into what's ef- effectively a hamstring curl.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:05:35

       Mm-hmm.

    6. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:05:35

       It hits the whole posterior chain and the lower back. Nordic curls are when you either brace your heels underneath a heavy piece of equipment-

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:05:42

       Mm

    8. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:05:42

       ... or you use a lifting belt and strap yourself to a bench, or someone-

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:05:47

       That's-

    10. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:05:47

        ... strong enough or heavy enough holds your ankles down-

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:05:49

        Got it. Got it

    12. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:05:50

        ... and you're lowering down, and you're touching your hands to the floor and coming back up.

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:05:54

        Yeah. [laughs]

    14. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:05:55

        Or you can do the Ben Patrick, Ben Bruno. Ben Bruno is another excellent Instagram trainer and professional trainer. He trains Justin Timberlake and a bunch of other kind of famous, not kind of, famous people. Justin Timberlake's not kind of famous. He's famous.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:06:09

        [laughs]

    16. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:06:10

        And he can do the cookie challenge, which is to put a cookie in your mouth and dip it in milk without putting your hands to the floor.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:06:15

        That is incredibly hard.

    18. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:06:16

        He, it's interesting, Ben is deceptively strong because he's not that large, but he's very, very strong. Ben Bruno Training is his handle.

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:06:26

        Cue breakdancers.

    20. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:06:27

        Yeah.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:06:27

        You wanna see some strong people who are-

    22. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:06:29

        Oh, yeah

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:06:29

        ... deceptive.

    24. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:06:30

        Yeah.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:06:30

        Ooh, the, yeah.

    26. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:06:31

        Yep.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:06:31

        B-boys.

    28. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:06:32

        Yep.

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:06:32

        B-girls.

    30. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:06:33

        So Nordic curls are great. There, there are now machines that, or an apparatus that you can buy where you can fix your heels under something.
17. 1:08:08 – 1:10:55

    Minimizing shin splints.

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:08:08

       I wanna recreate.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:08:09

       Not fun.

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:08:09

       Not fun.

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:08:09

       Not, not endorsed.

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:08:10

       No.

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:08:10

       So on the tib work side, this may be a question for Ben or someone more qualified, but one of the challenges that I've had for decades, shin splints, and my dorsiflexion is actually seemingly, from a strength perspective, pretty decent. Ankle mobility, also pretty decent, although the left ankle's been broken so many times that it's, it's a little crunchy. But I have done training with this fella named Jerzy Gregorek, who's-

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:08:38

       Oh, yeah

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:08:38

       ... holds multiple world records in Olympic weightlifting, or he held.

    9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:08:41

       Also deceptively strong.

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:08:43

        Incredibly strong.

    11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:08:44

        Yeah. I met him and his wife, right?

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:08:45

        Yeah, and-

    13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:08:45

        She's also-

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:08:46

        She also-

    15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:08:46

        Yeah

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:08:46

        ... has world records in Olympic weightlifting. And just to give you an idea, folks, he's gotta be in his, I wanna s- he's probably 67, 68 now, and he can do a full barbell snatch ass to heels while on top of an Indo Board, which are those balance boards-

    17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:09:01

        [laughs]

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:09:01

        ... on top of a cylinder.

    19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:09:02

        Sounds very dangerous.

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:09:04

        And I don't recommend trying to replicate that, but he's, he's quite a physical specimen. So the point of all of that is that my, my ankle mobility's pretty good. My dorsiflexion strength seems pretty good, but I always feel like the front of my shins are about to explode. Someone could just pop them like a balloon with a pin.

    21. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:09:23

        Mm-hmm.

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:09:23

        And I've not figured out a way to address this.

    23. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:09:27

        Yeah, I vote tib work. I used to have terrible shin splints.

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:09:29

        Okay.

    25. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:09:30

        Yeah, terrible shin splints from, and also pain in my shins just from skateboarding, taking so many shinners, as they're-

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:09:35

        Yeah

    27. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:09:35

        ... called, um, from doing a little bit of Thai boxing when I was in-

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:09:39

        Yep

    29. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:09:39

        ... high school and college, and, you know, and thinking I was being smart by conditioning my shins with Coke bottles, like I heard they did it over in Thailand. Just made a mess of my shins. The tib raises have changed everything. Also given m- I used to think I had flat feet.

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:09:54

        Mm-hmm.
18. 1:10:55 – 1:13:56

    You say soleus pushup, I say seated calf raise.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:10:55

       in the, apparently, I think this is possible, the lying to myself about the flat feet part.

    2. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:11:00

       Yeah.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:11:01

       That's-

    4. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:11:01

       I was convinced I had flat feet. You wanna hear something really wild that has nothing to do with fitness, but has everything to do with metabolism and the obesity crisis?

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:11:07

       Wild metabolism and obesity-

    6. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:11:09

       Yeah

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:11:09

       ... crisis.

    8. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:11:09

       And tibs.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:11:09

       Tell me.

    10. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:11:10

        There's a very important paper published from the University of Houston this last year, where they had people sitting for a couple of hours, and every two or three seconds, they would keep their toe on the ground, and they would do what was effectively a seated calf raise.

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:11:26

        Okay.

    12. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:11:26

        Think about the, the jumpy kid in class or when you've had too much-

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:11:28

        Yeah, yeah

    14. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:11:28

        ... coffee.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:11:29

        Yep.

    16. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:11:29

        Okay? They're doing it slowly, and they're measuring the contraction of the soleus.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:11:33

        Mm-hmm.

    18. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:11:33

        Right? The longer, flatter muscle of the calf underneath the gastroc.

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:11:37

        Yep.

    20. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:11:38

        Turns out that muscle is very unique. It does not use the same fuel sources as other muscles in the same way. It's not so much a glycogen-dependent muscle. It is designed, of course, to carry you very long distances over... You know, it's an endurance muscle. They had people do this while seated for a couple hours a day, and they looked at glucose uptake, and they looked at overall insulin management, and there was a significant and meaningful improvement in insulin sensitivity.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:12:11

        Hmm.

    22. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:12:11

        Now, this is not about caloric burn.

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:12:14

        Yeah.

    24. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:12:14

        This is about essentially doing exercise while seated.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:12:17

        Mm-hmm.

    26. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:12:17

        Now, I put out some stuff about this on social media, and people understandably go, laugh like, "Oh, that's ridiculous." First of all, they call it a soleus pushup in the study. People are like, "That's a c- seated calf raise," but most people don't know what a seated calf raise is.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:12:29

        Yeah.

    28. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:12:29

        So, you know, gym rats, you know, you're only laughing to yourselves.

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:12:32

        [laughs]

    30. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:12:33

        I throw that myself in that. I mean, you know-
19. 1:13:56 – 1:15:41

    Flat feet, Tabata, and self-coaching.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:13:56

       as fundamental pillars that you've doubled down on.

    2. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:13:59

       Mm-hmm.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:14:01

       Anything that you've changed your mind on?

    4. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:14:03

       Okay. Well, one of them was the fact that I always believed-

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:14:07

       Flat feet

    6. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:14:07

       ... that we couldn't, that I had flat feet. I also believed that we couldn't obtain multiple exercise adaptations at once.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:14:13

       Right.

    8. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:14:13

       Which we can.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:14:14

       Yes.

    10. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:14:14

        Because I track my numbers. I'm not super neurotic, but I keep a, you know, handwritten training journal, or at the end of the day, I'll... I generally can remember what I did in the gym and didn't do, or on a run, and I'm improving over time, so that's great. I, I thought I would, kind of had hit my peak ability, and I was... it was all downhill from here, but I feel much better.

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:14:34

        How do you track, if you track, like the Tabata, for instance? Are you looking at wattage? Are you looking at anything, or is it more-

    12. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:14:39

        Yeah

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:14:39

        ... subjective?

    14. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:14:40

        I tend to add another round or two, or just do a little bit more work or go a little bit harder. I tend to like to do things pretty subjectively when it comes to exercise.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:14:48

        Mm.

    16. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:14:48

        Like I, my calendar, like for legs, it'll say tib, calf, ham, quad, and I'll put level, anywhere from level one to level 10. Level 10 would be the workout with like four straps and drop sets, just all out. I rarely, if ever, do those. But typically I'm trying to make that workout at least a level 7.5 to nine. And generally the shorter workouts are the harder ones.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:15:10

        Mm-hmm.

    18. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:15:11

        Occasionally, just because of schedules or I'm not feeling great, I'll do that Wednesday run and it'll end up being a, you know, 15-minute jog or something, and I'll just say, "Level five, lame," or something like that. Like I didn't, you know, [laughs] or something like that. And then, you know, and then push a little bit harder the next day. So I'm, I'm kind of my own coach. I'm sort of observing myself rather than getting really deep into the metrics, but I'm always trying to put a little bit more weight on the bar or go slower with the repetition, or add a set or a rep or two-

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:15:40

        Mm-hmm

    20. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:15:40

        ... you know,

20. 1:15:41 – 1:20:36

    The holy trinity of Andrew’s sleep stack + one.

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:15:41

       or all three.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:15:42

       So let's hone in on sleep, my perennial favorite and the bane of my wellbeing, depending on the quality. But last we spoke, I remember you spoke about, I think it was magnesium threonate, apigenin, and there may have been one or two other-

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:15:59

       Theanine

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:16:00

       ... lucky charms in there.

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:16:01

       Yeah, theanine.

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:16:01

       Right, theanine. Are those still the holy trinity for your sleep, or do you have other things that you've added, things you've subtracted? What is your current cocktail, with the understanding that as much as people want to fix everything with silver bullets, light exposure in the morning, exercise, all of these are contributors-

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:16:22

       Yeah

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:16:22

       ... to good-

    9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:16:23

       Yep

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:16:23

        ... good quality sleep.

    11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:16:25

        I still use the same sleep stack. So it's magnesium threonate, spelled T-H-R-E-O-N-A-T-E, theanine and apigenin, and I've added, every once in a while, I'll take 900 milligrams of myo-inositol. Myo-inositol has a rich literature associated-

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:16:43

        Interesting name. Myo as in muscle? Why myo? M-Y-O

    13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:16:46

        That's a good question. Yeah, it must be.

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:16:48

        Yeah, it must be. Yeah.

    15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:16:49

        So it's amino acid, but it can be a neurotransmitter mimetic. Extensive literature on inositol for improving insulin sensitivity.

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:16:59

        Hm.

    17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:16:59

        There's also something called D-chiro inositol, which is important for female fertility. We can talk about that. But what I've added in the 900 milligrams myo-inositol for is I do sometimes, like many people, wake up at 3:00 in the morning-

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:17:14

        Mm

    19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:17:14

        ... to use the restroom.

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:17:15

        Mm-hmm.

    21. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:17:15

        And although there's a simple solution to that that I just recently learned that really works, and I'll share it in a moment-

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:17:20

        Catheter. [laughs] No

    23. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:17:21

        ... [laughs] it helps me fall back asleep after that.

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:17:25

        Hm.

    25. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:17:25

        And I am tracking my sleep because I sleep on an Eight Sleep-

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:17:27

        Mm-hmm

    27. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:17:28

        ... and that has good sleep tracking ability. What Attia has taught me, that a lot of the wristbands and rings for tracking sleep, while they can be quite good and are quite good, Whoops and Auras being-

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:17:39

        Mm

    29. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:17:39

        ... the two most popular ones, they can get movement wrong because of movement of limbs, whereas the Eight Sleep seems to really capture-

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:17:48

        Mm-hmm
21. 1:20:36 – 1:22:46

    How the first half of your day should differ from the last half.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:20:36

       Oh, are you kidding? I mean, I'm not gonna throw stones in my glass house here. I interrupt constantly. But you were talking about the, so the kidneys. And you're saying-

    2. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:20:44

       Mm-hmm

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:20:44

       ... not the same organ in the morning as it is at night.

    4. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:20:47

       Yep.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:20:47

       This is what circadian biologists have been screaming from the rooftops, and now that's coming home to roost in these papers that you're reading, or maybe it's a meta-analysis, I don't know. And you were saying sipping water at night-

    6. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:21:02

       Mm-hmm

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:21:02

       ... or just slower intake, gulping in the morning.

    8. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:21:04

       Mm-hmm.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:21:05

       And I, I threw your, your train of thought off the rails.

    10. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:21:08

        All good.

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:21:09

        [laughs]

    12. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:21:09

        I mean, basically you wanna look at the first half of your day very differently than the second half of your day. Morning part of your day, you want sunlight or bright artificial light. Why? It increases cortisol 50% above baseline. You want cortisol high early in the day, and you want it low, low, low later in the day. Not because it disrupts sleep, but because it's, late shifted cortisol is associated with depression, screws up your immune system to have it late shifted. Beautiful work from Bob Sapolsky and David Spiegel at Stanford School of Medicine have shown that. Hydration, caffeine, sunlight, movement, bright light if you can't get sunlight early in the day. You really want what are called the catecholamines, which are dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine, and you want cortisol, which is a glucose corticoid, elevated in the early part of the day. That's what's gonna give you energy, focus, alertness, all that great stuff throughout the day, and then you want to taper that stuff off as the day goes on. Now, recent data have shown that if you want to improve your rapid eye movement sleep, why would you wanna do that? Well, rapid eye movement sleep is when you get the emotional, the unpacking of emotions from previous day memories.

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:22:16

        Yeah. Read or listen to our usual friend, Matt Walker.

    14. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:22:20

        Mm-hmm. Right?

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:22:20

        Yeah.

    16. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:22:20

        I mean, how do you get more rapid eye movement sleep? High-intensity interval training early part of the day, or cycling appears to greatly improve different stages of sleep as well compared to running, although running will do-

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:22:32

        Why is that?

    18. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:22:32

        ... it as well. I don't know.

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:22:33

        [laughs]

    20. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:22:34

        I think it has to do with the central pattern generator thing. High-intensity interval training, I mean, you're pedaling on the bike or you're sprinting-

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:22:40

        Yeah

    22. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:22:40

        ... so it's repetitive, but it's not repetitive for long enough that you're engaging certain brain circuits.

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:22:44

        Huh.

    24. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:22:45

        So,

22. 1:22:46 – 1:24:21

    Dutch bicycles or bust.

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:22:46

       and it's going to deplete different neurotransmitter systems. It's gonna engage the endorphin system rather than the dopamine system.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:22:51

       I, I wonder if it's also a study bias in the sense that it's so much easier to get your slaves, AKA, like, undergrads [laughs] or grad students or whoever recruited in a university setting to sit on a bike.

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:23:06

       Yeah.

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:23:06

       So if you have 100 studies with bikes and you have five studies with running, that maybe it's sort of a selection bias in some, in some respect, because there's just such a higher volume of studies. I don't know.

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:23:18

       I don't know. I love bicycling-

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:23:20

       Mm-hmm

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:23:20

       ... when I can be upright. You know, think your Dutch bicycle, you know?

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:23:23

       Yeah.

    9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:23:23

       Moving through a city, seeing things, optic flow, seeing, which we know shuts down the amygdala to some extent, it suppresses activity. The amygdala, it's beautiful. You see things, you see people. How anyone in the world could want to be hunched over in a partial C position and pedaling as you, as one is on a road bike, I have, it's just, I have zero minus one interest-

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:23:42

        [laughs]

    11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:23:42

        ... in doing that. It sounds horrible. And then I heard it gives you all these, like, prostate issues, and it can give men-

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:23:47

        Oh, no

    13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:23:47

        ... erectile dysfunction, like, you know, 'cause from the pain. They now put grooves in the seats because-

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:23:51

        Yeah, yeah

    15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:23:51

        ... you know? I, I just think, like, why would anyone be a cyclist? This is terrible. And you're surrounded-

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:23:55

        Turns out having a pool cue shoved into, like, your perineum for hours at a time isn't good for you. [laughs]

    17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:23:59

        No, hunched over like a C. And, and I realize that, that, you know, I have many friends who are triathletes and cyclists, so I realize there's really an allure there. Moving fast through space feels really good, but also the danger of cars and, like, yeah. So cycle- riding a bicycle recreationally to me makes sense-

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:24:13

        Hmm

    19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:24:13

        ... as does, you know, walking or running or skateboarding or whatever. [laughs] But to me, cycling hunched over like that just seems like a dreadful form

23. 1:24:21 – 1:26:24

    Omega-3 supplement nausea.

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:24:21

       of, of exercise. But that's just me.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:24:23

       So let's go from the dreadful to the sublime perhaps. We, we mentioned a couple of supplements, and I, I don't want to fixate on that, but I follow my own curiosity here.

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:24:34

       Mm-hmm.

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:24:35

       And there's a list here. So on the omegas, because we discussed omega-3 fatty acids, EPA, DHA, and I increased my intake. I'm so curious to know, because I do observe seemingly a very consistent improvement in n- in mood and sleep. However, I've tried multiple brands, and I've tried to do the homework and look at the various, like, certificates of analysis to make sure that I'm not, you know, eating rancid garbage. I end up getting mild nausea after-

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:25:12

       Hmm

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:25:12

       ... like, a week of, I suppose, higher intake maybe if I'm taking I might be getting the, the amount off, but maybe two grams total-

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:25:22

       Mm-hmm

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:25:22

       ... something like that. I-

    9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:25:23

       In liquid or capsule form?

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:25:24

        In capsule form.

    11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:25:26

        Mm-hmm.

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:25:26

        I-

    13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:25:26

        With food or without food?

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:25:28

        That's a great question. I, I probably wasn't even paying attention. It, although I tend to take fat with food-

    15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:25:34

        Mm-hmm

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:25:34

        ... so probably with food.

    17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:25:36

        Yeah, same.

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:25:36

        Or maybe just before food.

    19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:25:38

        Yeah.

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:25:39

        I, I'd be curious to know, anyone on the internet, if you're listening to this, if you've, if you've experienced anything similar, because I see the benefits, and then let's just call it five to seven days in, I just get this, like, low-grade nausea, almost like a motion sickness.

    21. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:25:54

        Hmm.

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:25:54

        And then I stop for a washout period, and then I'm fine, and I'm like, "God, this is-

    23. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:25:58

        So you know it's the fish oil

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:25:59

        ... a bummer."

    25. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:25:59

        Hmm.

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:26:00

        Yeah.

    27. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:26:00

        Yeah, there's some, I mean, obviously some great high-quality fish oils out there. There's, for liquid, the Carlson's brands-

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:26:07

        Mm-hmm

    29. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:26:07

        ... the ones that, that are lemon flavored to make them less fishy-

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:26:11

        Uh-huh
24. 1:26:24 – 1:27:49

    EPA dosage, Carlson’s oil on oatmeal, and sushi.

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:26:24

       but that's just the truth.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:26:25

       What is your dosage target for omega-3s or EPA specifically?

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:26:30

       Minimum one gram per day of EPA.

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:26:33

       Okay.

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:26:33

       Minimum. Sometimes more.

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:26:35

       And do you take it in one dose or split doses?

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:26:37

       I take it, it ends up being three capsules with my big meal of the day-

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:26:44

       Mm-hmm

    9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:26:44

       ... which tends to be a midday meal.

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:26:45

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:26:46

        And then I take a tablespoon of the Carlson’s oil, and people, uh, gasp when I say this, but I actually like it on my oatmeal with salt.

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:26:55

        Oh.

    13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:26:56

        It tastes good.

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:26:56

        I, you know-

    15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:26:57

        Yeah

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:26:57

        ... I, when I've spent time-

    17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:26:58

        You stir it in, like it doesn't-

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:26:59

        ... in, like, Iceland and Scandinavia-

    19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:27:00

        Yeah. It's delicious

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:27:00

        ... like, I've, I've had these little shots of, like, cod liver oil and so on. I can do that, but on top of the oatmeal?

    21. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:27:06

        No, I'm telling you, it's really good.

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:27:08

        Ugh.

    23. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:27:08

        And I hate sardines. I despise sardines.

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:27:11

        Wow.

    25. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:27:11

        I despise anything smoked flavor. I'm really boring. And I absolutely loathe anchovies, like fishy oil smell.

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:27:19

        Yeah, can't do anchovies.

    27. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:27:20

        I don't even like eating fish.

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:27:21

        Still like sardines.

    29. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:27:22

        I like sushi. I like sushi, that's about it.

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:27:24

        Yeah.
25. 1:27:49 – 1:28:14

    Benefits of EPA.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:27:49

       either or, with the intake of, say, one gram minimum of EPA per day?

    2. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:27:54

       Mood antidepressant effects.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:27:56

       Yeah.

    4. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:27:56

       Absolutely clear, and there are so many clinical trials supporting that. People can get away with taking lower doses of antidepressants or even coming off antidepressants, of course, always, you know, check with your psychiatrist before you do that, by increasing their omega-3 intake above one gram per day, even as high as three grams per day.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:28:12

       Okay, so question for you. I remember last

26. 1:28:14 – 1:33:21

    How EPA (and, in general, food) affects mood.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:28:14

       time we spoke, we were ch- we chatted a bit about the ability for the gut, let's just say, it's, as some people refer to it as the second brain, to sense the intake of sugar, fat-

    2. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:28:30

       Mm-hmm

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:28:30

       ... and a handful of other things. What is the mechanism of action by which the EPA is affecting mood? Is that known?

    4. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:28:41

       Mm-hmm.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:28:41

       Or is-

    6. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:28:42

       I think so. It's a, it's probably two-pronged. One, the EPA is a fundamental structural lipid for neuronal membranes and for the neurons in particular that release neuromodulators-

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:28:55

       Mm-hmm

    8. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:28:55

       ... such as serotonin and dopamine.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:28:57

       Mm-hmm.

    10. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:28:58

        That's one. The other is that these neuropod cells in the gut, as they're called, sense, as you point out, sugar, essential fatty acids-

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:29:09

        Mm-hmm

    12. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:29:10

        ... essential amino acids, and signal via the vagus to the dopamine centers of the brain. So your gut is subconsciously signaling to your brain what kinds of nutrients are coming into your system.

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:29:20

        Yep.

    14. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:29:21

        And when you have a lot of flavorful food or, and/or high caloric food, but it's not high in nutrients, it sets that system totally out of whack because there's an increase in dopamine, for sure, from the taste of the food that's not matched by that subconscious parallel signal.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:29:40

        Mm-hmm.

    16. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:29:40

        By the way, this, this is not woo biology. This is coming from the laboratories of Diego Bohorquez at Duke University School of Medicine. Charles Zucker, who's a Howard Hughes Medical Investigator at Columbia University, has done this for sugar sensing, and a number of other laboratories have shown that this pathway from the subconscious signaling from the vagus to the dopamine centers of the brain are driving an, an appetite for certain kinds of foods. However, when these neurons, these neuropod cells in the gut are, quote-unquote, "satisfied," they're seeing the, the nutrients they want to see. They signal to the brain dopamine release within the brain, but they also are signaling satiety.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:30:20

        Hmm.

    18. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:30:20

        And [chuckles] that's really what you want. So in many ways, we are a essential amino acid, essential fatty acid foraging machine. It just also so happens that, at least in the short term, sugar will trigger the same pathway.

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:30:34

        Mm-hmm.

    20. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:30:34

        This is also why people who increase their intake of omega-3s, get above that one gram per day of EPAs, or who take small amounts of L-glutamine-

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:30:45

        Mm-hmm

    22. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:30:45

        ... reduce their sugar cravings. You're activating the same neurons. You're giving the alternative stimulus.

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:30:51

        So the L-glutamine is vis-a-vis the, the neuropods?

    24. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:30:54

        Likely.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:30:55

        Likely.

    26. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:30:55

        Yeah, that hasn't been directly established, but it's long been known that increasing intake of certain essential amino acids can reduce craving for-

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:31:04

        Hmm

    28. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:31:04

        ... sweets. And whenever people say, "How do I kill my sweet craving?" Well, it's not a conventional approach, but you could take, you know, you could get a quality branched-chain amino acid or essential amino acid powder, which sometimes have some non-caloric sweetener or something and fruity taste, and mix it in there. People find, "Oh, yeah, I don't actually crave-" ... chocolate the same way or-

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:31:24

        Mm

    30. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:31:24

        ... I mean, in my opinion, a little bit of dark chocolate is wonderful every once in a while, so I don't wanna give the impression that you're ne- never supposed to have sugar. But there are people who very much feel a slave to their sugar cravings.
27. 1:33:21 – 1:35:47

    Are you eating enough nattō and Bulgarian yogurt?

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:33:21

       all of that.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:33:21

       Yeah.

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:33:23

       Gut health, you know, overall, it's hard for most people to do what they need to for their gut.

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:33:28

       Yeah.

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:33:28

       In addition to all the things to avoid, like too frequent use of antibiotics and things of that sorts, it's pretty clear that one serving of fermented foods a day is not gonna be enough, that you need three or four servings of low-sugar fermented food, so nattō for people that can stomach it.

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:33:44

       [laughs] Good luck.

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:33:45

       I can't.

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:33:45

       [laughs]

    9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:33:46

       You know, sauerkraut, kimchi-

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:33:47

        [laughs]

    11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:33:48

        ... uh, a good Bulgarian yogurt. I like these really sour Bulgarian yogurts. They're so good.

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:33:52

        Bulgarian yogurt?

    13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:33:53

        Yeah. Oh, there's this amazing Bulgarian yogurt. You have to try this stuff. It is so good, except they don't have r- the full-fat one in particular. It comes in a-

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:33:58

        What makes the Bulgarian yogurt so magical?

    15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:34:01

        I wish I could remember the name of this brand.

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:34:02

        [laughs] We'll put it in the show notes.

    17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:34:03

        It's so good.

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:34:04

        [laughs]

    19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:34:05

        But I don't want people to... They run out 'cause they only put two or three of these in every Whole Foods.

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:34:08

        Yeah, yeah.

    21. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:34:09

        And I'm, I'm buying those two or three, so-

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:34:10

        [laughs]

    23. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:34:11

        ... the, of the full-fat ones. But it's hard for most people to get that much low-sugar fermented food per day.

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:34:16

        Mm-hmm.

    25. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:34:16

        And so most people just don't do it.

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:34:18

        Yeah.

    27. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:34:18

        And, and then high-dose probiotics are very expensive, need to be refrigerated.

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:34:23

        Yep.

    29. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:34:23

        So that's why I think the AG1, you know, checks off a number of boxes there.

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:34:27

        Yeah.
28. 1:35:47 – 1:40:57

    Rhodiola rosea.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:35:47

       tongkat ali, Fadogia agrestis-

    2. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:35:49

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:35:49

       ... if I'm pronouncing that correctly. But the one I wanna ask you about first is actually, if I'm getting the pronunciation correctly, Rhodiola rosea?

    4. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:35:57

       Yeah, Rhodiola rosea. It's-

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:35:58

       S-

    6. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:35:58

       ... impressive supplement

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:35:59

       ... so please tell me more about this because I have heard in my conversations with athletes over the years of people using this for various endurance purposes, altitude acclimation. But I don't know if any of that has any foundation.

    8. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:36:15

       So Rhodiola rosea is a really interesting compound because it falls into this category of what people call adaptogens. But normally when you hear adaptogens, first of all, that's a very vague term.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:36:25

       Yeah.

    10. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:36:25

        Doesn't actually mean anything specific. It means a- an ability to adapt generally or specifically. No one's really pinpointed what that means. But typically, the adaptogens are going to reduce cortisol. So for instance, ashwagandha is a very potent suppressor of cortisol. There's some evidence it can indirectly increase testosterone-

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:36:44

        Hm

    12. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:36:44

        ... but probably through suppression of cortisol since those are in the same synthesis pathway. Ashwagandha's an adaptogen. Ashwagandha, because it lowers cortisol, should probably be taken late day, not early day, because you want cortisol high.

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:36:58

        Yep.

    14. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:36:58

        Ashwagandha as a cortisol-suppressing adaptogen probably also should not be taken in high amounts, not low, low amounts, but in high amounts meaning, you know, four to 600 milligrams prior to exercise because the whole goal of exercise is to trigger the adaptation through a spike in cortisol.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:37:15

        Mm-hmm.

    16. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:37:15

        Or one of the goals. Rhodiola rosea is a very interesting compound because it's an adaptogen in that it greatly reduces perceived effort and allows for greater power output and endurance output, as you pointed out a moment ago. But it does not do that by suppressing cortisol. So 200 milligrams of rhodiola rosea prior to, say, a resistance training workout or even on one of your, uh-

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:37:42

        The skeetering days

    18. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:37:43

        ... you will notice you have more vigor. You can just go longer, and your perceived effort is much lower. And it's kind of striking-

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:37:51

        What is it doing?

    20. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:37:52

        Now, this is interesting. It's kind of striking how after the workout you don't feel as depleted. That perhaps the main reason I started taking it is I found I could train harder, but then I suffered quite a lot from a post-exercise dip in energy, especially if I ate a big meal. I no longer experience that if I take rhodiola rosea, um, 30 to 60 minutes before a workout. The effects of it last about four hours. So what's happening during that workout? It's clearly having an effect on the central nervous system by reducing the total amount of adrenaline that's released, or the efficacy of adrenaline, epinephrine during high-intensity effort or long-duration-

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:38:30

        Yeah

    22. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:38:30

        ... effort. So what this effectively means is you're, in principle, one is able to generate the same amount of effort without the same amount of energy-depleting neurochemicals. I mean, epinephrine, norepinephrine help you generate energy, but there's always a trough afterwards.

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:38:46

        Mm-hmm.

    24. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:38:47

        Always. And so if you can generate the same amount of physical output in the absence of X amount of adrenaline or, or norepinephrine, then you're essentially better off. It also seems to catalyze recovery better. I would not take it more often than just before training, however, because there are a few studies showing that the effects of it can-

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:39:08

        Yeah

    26. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:39:08

        ... kind of taper off if you're taking it all day every day.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:39:11

        Now, would that be true for, say, ashwagandha? Let's just say someone's taking it before sleep. Would they wanna cycle off of that? How would you think about cycling, if recommended?

    28. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:39:22

        Yeah. Low dose of ashwagandha, you know, 25, 50 milligrams a day taken continuously, no problem. I actually think AG1 has low dose of ashwagandha in it. But when people are taking ashwagandha to offset high stress of, you know, mental or physical stuff or both for a period in life, I would say after about two weeks, you want at least two weeks off.

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:39:42

        Mm-hmm.

    30. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:39:42

        You really don't wanna suppress cortisol chronically unless there's some clinical reason for that.
29. 1:40:57 – 1:42:50

    Tongkat ali and Fadogia agrestis.

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:40:57

       other things in life.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:40:57

       Anything else.

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:40:58

       Yeah.

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:40:58

       Yeah.

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:40:58

       And I think most people are like that.

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:41:00

       Are you still taking the tongkat ali and the Fadogia agrestis? And for those who are not familiar, because I think we may have made mention of this in our last conversation, but just in brief, what are these two things do?

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:41:10

       Tongkat ali is an Indonesian ginseng. There's a Malaysian version, too, but you want the Indonesian one if you wanna pursue these effects, which are, it's known to decrease sex hormone binding globulin, which frees testosterone-

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:41:23

       Mm-hmm

    9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:41:24

       ... which is important in both men and women. It turns out in women, there's more testosterone circulating in a healthy woman, post-puberty woman, than there is estrogen. Peter Attia taught me this. If you normalize for nanograms per deciliter, women have more testosterone than estrogen. Healthy women do.

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:41:40

        Hmm.

    11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:41:40

        So testosterone is associated with libido, ability and desire to generate effort, mood, et cetera, in men and women. Probably the best way to describe testosterone's effects are it makes effort feel good.

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:41:53

        Mm-hmm.

    13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:41:54

        So, um, tongkat ali frees up more testosterone, so it, mild libido enhancer for some, more extreme for others. Increases energy, will increase, you know, feelings of well-being. And typically the dosages are 400 milligrams a day in single dose or divided do- doses with or without food, taken early in the day before noon or 2:00 p.m. because it can increase energy. You don't want to disrupt your sleep. There are a number of good sources of it. We can provide links to a couple of those sources. And Fadogia agrestis is a Nigerian shrub.

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:42:27

        Okay.

    15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:42:27

        It's taken from a Nigerian shrub, and it stimulates the release of luteinizing hormone-

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:42:31

        Mm-hmm

    17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:42:31

        ... which is going to come out of the pituitary, and in women will stimulate anything that comes from downstream of luteinizing hormone in the ovary, so typically estrogen, maybe even testosterone to some extent. And in men, it will increase testosterone output from the testes

30. 1:42:50 – 1:44:43

    Yes, men depend on estrogen too.

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:42:50

       by way-

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:42:50

       Mm-hmm

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:42:50

       ... of increasing luteinizing hormone, maybe subtle increase in estrogen as well. This is important. Men hear that something increases estrogen and they go, "Ooh, I don't want that." Well, keep in mind that if you flatline your estrogen, so if men are taking anastrozole or crushing their estrogen, their libido is gonna be zero.

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:43:08

       Yeah.

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:43:09

       Their cognitive ability will be diminished.

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:43:12

       Yeah.

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:43:12

       Estrogen is important in both men and women.

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:43:13

       Also cardioprotective, isn't it?

    9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:43:14

       Cardioprotective. The endothelial cells, we think of our blood vessels and our arteries and capillaries as tubes, but they're really tubes. Imagine Silly Putty kinda rolled out, Play-Doh made into little flat sheets and then rolled up to comprise those tubes. So it's many, many endothelial cells that make up those tubes, and the flexibility of those tubes is very important. Obviously, you don't want them rigid. You need them to expand and contract as needed, and estrogen's important for, for some of that signaling leading to that malleability of the endothelial cells. Fadogia agrestis is typically taken in dosages of 300 to 600 milligrams per day with or without food. Doesn't seem to matter if it's early day, late day. There's some evidence that in rats it can be toxic to the testicular tissue, but that's in very, very high concentrations. And the- it's interesting, the, the number of studies on humans for both tongkat ali and fadogia have greatly expanded since our last conversation.

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:44:07

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:44:07

        And especially for tongkat ali, there's, uh, quite good support. Safety margins are good within the dosage ranges that we've talked about. I've heard of people taking up to a gram a day of tongkat ali. That just makes me cringe. I think taking herbal compounds in very high concentrations is gonna be risky no matter what because these things can trigger immune responses. So, you know, 400 milligrams of tongkat ali, 300 to 600 milligrams of fadogia taken daily should be fine. I don't cycle them and never have. Some people cycle the fadogia-

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:44:36

        Why not?

    13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:44:36

        ... 'cause they're afraid. Why don't I cycle them?

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:44:38

        Yeah, because I-

    15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:44:39

        'Cause I just keep working. [laughs]

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:44:40

        [laughs] Well, well, I mean Louis Simmons could've said that about-

31. 1:44:43 – 1:53:13

    Fine-tuning fertility (and, by proxy, vitality).

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:44:43

       Right

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:44:43

       ... anabolics too. [laughs]

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:44:44

       Yeah, so a couple of reasons. I do blood work twice a year.

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:44:48

       Yeah.

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:44:48

       Uh, liver enzymes are included there.

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:44:50

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:44:51

       We can talk about fertility perhaps, i- if you want today. The last year, because of my age and the fact that I don't have children yet, but I'm cognizant of the fact that I do want them at some point, I started doing... I got really down the rabbit hole, interesting figure of speech-

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:45:06

       [laughs]

    9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:45:07

       ... of sperm analysis, including everything from DNA fragmentation to how to increase sperm numbers and motility and quality and egg quality. I got-

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:45:14

        So you're a gambling man.

    11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:45:15

        Yeah.

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:45:15

        If you're making your swimmers world class-

    13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:45:17

        Yeah

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:45:17

        ... but you don't want kids.

    15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:45:18

        Yeah.

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:45:19

        [laughs]

    17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:45:20

        [laughs] Well, it's all about readiness, I suppose. What is it that in the SEAL teams they say? Like, you, you fall not to the level of your, your hope, but to the level-

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:45:27

        You, you, you do-

    19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:45:27

        ... of your preparation?

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:45:28

        You, you do not rise to the level of your hopes but fall to the level of your preparation. That's actually a quote from Archilochus, who is-

    21. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:45:35

        Mm-hmm

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:45:35

        ... a Greek poet and I believe philosopher also. But, yes-

    23. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:45:38

        Got it

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:45:39

        ... also widely used in the Special Forces teams.

    25. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:45:42

        Yeah. So I've been monitoring sperm parameters, freezing sperm, 'cause I might wanna do IVF someday with somebody, you know, this kind of thing. Or hap- conceive naturally. But, and because yeah, we're talking about tools, supplements, et cetera, as it relates to vitality and fertility, I think there is a way to optimize for both of those things.

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:46:00

        Mm-hmm.

    27. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:46:01

        So I don't cycle them because I haven't felt a need to or-

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:46:04

        Okay

    29. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:46:04

        ... seen a need to. Some people choose to just take a week off from fadogia every once in a while, or go five days on, two days off. You know, people should do what makes them comfortable. Males will notice an effect of fadogia. It actually will increase testicular size somewhat, and uh, density.

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:46:17

        Mm-hmm.
32. 1:53:13 – 1:55:03

    Benefits of afternoon de-light.

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:53:13

       but that represent key micronutrients that really move multiple needles in the right direction, it's gonna be getting above that one gram per day threshold of EPAs-

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:53:23

       Mm

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:53:23

       ... so omegas. It's also going to be anything that moves the hormone system toward the green zone, which is gonna be tongkat ali. Now, of course, doing all the other things right, trying to get sleep, exercise, sleep, movement, nutrients, sunlight, all, all that. In fact, there's a really wonderful study out of Israel that showed that if people got 20 minutes three times a week of sun exposure to their skin, their face, and they removed their shirts, or if it was women, they wore tank tops and shorts, for both men and women, three times a week, significant increases in testos- free testosterone, and this was afternoon sun, it wasn't morning sun. Increases in free testosterone and estrogen and significant increases in libido. Also, if you chart out the amount of free testosterone across the, the months, even in places that aren't really far north, you're going to see significant variations in free testosterone in men and women-

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:54:16

       Hmm

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:54:17

       ... toward the summer, spring and summer months. So we're somewhat seasonal, and, and some people robustly seasonal, depending on your, your ancestry. So that sunlight thing is real. And, and the mechanism, just so that people aren't like, "Oh, get sunlight, he's just saying sunlight again," is that the keratinocytes, which are a component of the skin, signal through this, for you nerds the, like me, the p53 pathway, and impinge on the pituitary to signal luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone release.

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:54:45

       Hmm.

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:54:45

       It's so interesting because what we think of the, as the skin, which is protecting our organs and, you know, a place to put tattoos and earrings and jewelry and stuff-

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:54:53

       [laughs]

    9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:54:54

       ... is actually an endocrine organ.

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:54:56

        Yeah.

    11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:54:56

        The skin is a hormone-producing organ, hence the vitamin D thing and everything else. So anyway-

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:55:00

        Yeah, a lot of fat cells too-

    13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:55:01

        Yeah

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:55:01

        ... which a lot of people don't-

    15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:55:02

        Yep

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:55:02

        ... think about.

33. 1:55:03 – 1:58:40

    The highs and lows of self-pleasure in the modern era.

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:55:03

       Yeah, so definitely the omegas and tongkat ali. Rh- Rhodiola rosea is great to enhance workouts.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:55:09

       Yeah.

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:55:09

       Fadogia is definitely a, it's a, it's a boost on the hormone system for sure. I have a friend who was single, now he's in a great relationship. We can't say it was because the Fadogia, but he was taking Fadogia and he was like, "I gotta stop taking this stuff," 'cause uh, he was flying solo at that point.

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:55:24

       [laughs]

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:55:24

       He was like, "This is just really, it's really intrusive." And I, and I-

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:55:28

       Wait, intrusive because he was just humping the walls or what? [laughs]

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:55:31

       I don't know if we want to go here. You know, there's this whole online community now about semen retention and things like that. He's not part of that community, but there's this idea that- Well, we'll just be, we're adults here. I mean, there's this idea that-

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:55:42

       Speak for yourself

    9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:55:42

       ... if you look in the journals of sexual health-

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:55:46

        Yeah

    11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:55:46

        ... and I'm really interested in, in sexual health and urological health. There's a ton of interesting stuff on pelvic floor. This stuff just isn't often discussed.

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:55:53

        Yeah.

    13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:55:54

        What you find is that masturbation for women turns out to their self-reported notions of well-being, of mood, of immune system function, of quote-unquote knowing their bodies and what gives them pleasure, et cetera-

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:56:07

        Mm

    15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:56:07

        ... all increase. If you look at the data in men in terms of masturbation, and here we're talking about masturbation to the point of ejaculation in men, they report lower mood, less willingness to pursue relationships.

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:56:18

        Shocker. [laughs]

    17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:56:19

        You know, they're, they're home watching porn, right? So we, we have to be very careful with statements like masturbation is bad or, or, or something like that.

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:56:25

        Yeah.

    19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:56:25

        'Cause that's not true. It's gonna be gender s- well, we should say, stay out of that discussion, biological sex dependent.

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:56:31

        Yeah.

    21. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:56:31

        'Cause that's a clearer ground. We'll just leave it at that. And then there is this whole notion that a lo- a whole generation of young males are, are becoming porn addicted and masturbation addicted-

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:56:39

        Yeah

    23. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:56:39

        ... but can't look someone in the eye, ask them out on a date, or learn how to navigate healthy consensual sex.

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:56:46

        Yeah.

    25. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:56:46

        Right? And they're not doing neck work, so they can't look anyone in the eye, which I'm just... [laughs] Um-

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:56:51

        They've got flaccid feet and they don't do neck work. Ugh.

    27. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:56:54

        Yeah, I mean, and here I'm not trying to create notions of like hyper males. We're really just talking about a radical shift in the way that sexual health has evolved over the last 10 years-

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:57:03

        Mm-hmm

    29. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:57:03

        ... because of the accessibility of hardcore pornography, its relation to the dopamine system.

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:57:08

        Yeah.
34. 1:58:40 – 2:03:31

    Optimizing the health of one’s reproductive material.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:58:40

       say of, of free versus bounded testosterone, et cetera. Where did you end up after doing your research on environmental endocrine disruptors or things that we should be subtracting rather than adding?

    2. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:58:55

       Yeah, no.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:58:55

       Because it's hard for me as someone who is, say, certainly a non-specialist in reproductive health, to find the time or even maybe just the, the dedication to sort the signal from the noise with all that-

    4. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:59:11

       Mm-hmm

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:59:11

       ... because there's a lot of hysterics too.

    6. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:59:13

       Mm-hmm.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:59:13

       There's a lot of-

    8. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:59:14

       Sure

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:59:14

       ... nonsense out there.

    10. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:59:15

        Sure.

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:59:15

        Where did you land with what are important, if anything, to be mindful of or subtract?

    12. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:59:22

        Mm-hmm. So, so for cutting through that four and a half [laughs] of the Dances with Wolves reference-

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:59:28

        [laughs]

    14. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:59:28

        ... that is a long movie.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:59:29

        Well, hey, I love Dances with Wolves, so I'm not knocking it for the length. I think people should listen to, to this podcast. But specifically just to hone in on this piece-

    16. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:59:37

        No, it, it was designed for individuals or couples who are thinking about these issues and, um, and also for, in particular, for women who are interested in banking eggs.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:59:51

        Yep.

    18. AHDr. Andrew Huberman1:59:51

        You know, like most women don't know that cutoff after which you can't freeze eggs, you can only freeze embryos. So in California, if you're 42 years old or younger, you can freeze eggs. You might meet someone later and decide you want to conceive children or use a donor. After 42, I think it's at 42 and a half, you can only create embryos and freeze those. They're just not... The, the eggs are, on average, are just too aged out.

    19. TFTim Ferriss2:00:17

        Hmm.

    20. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:00:18

        Males, if you want to be a sperm donor, you know, ideally you're, you're gonna do that before 45. Sperm donor or you might want to do IVF someday. Now, there is a significant increase in the incidence of autism with each half decade for the father. You know, so as you go from, you know, 30 to 35 to 40, the sperm age matters, but the increase is still incredibly small overall.

    21. TFTim Ferriss2:00:45

        Mm-hmm.

    22. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:00:46

        So it's not something you can really point to and say, "Oh, it's the sperm," you know?

    23. TFTim Ferriss2:00:50

        Mm-hmm.

    24. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:00:50

        Or it's the egg, for that matter.

    25. TFTim Ferriss2:00:51

        Mm-hmm.

    26. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:00:52

        Okay, now dos and don'ts. We can now easily look back to our, the beginning of our discussion. It's very clear that quality sleep on a regular basis, sunlight, keeping stress in check, healthy relationships, aura, all of that is going to support sperm health and egg health. No question about that. It's also clear that getting sufficient omega-3 fatty acids is going to support sperm health and egg health. I'll just point out that if there were one supplement that really seems to move the needle in terms of egg quality, which is a morphological but also a, a meaningful physiological metric, or sp- and sperm quality, which is going to be shape, motility. You don't want what are called dead sperm. They're always going to be some in a sample because of the age of the sperm, et cetera, and the way the spermatogenesis cycle go. But you want forwardly motile sperm. The other ones are called twitchers, so you know, they just twitch in place. [laughs] They can actually take twitchers and force them into the egg during IVF, something called ICSI. But- In general, the, the greater number of forward motile sperm. I'm swimming them toward you. [laughs]

    27. TFTim Ferriss2:01:51

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    28. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:01:52

        I, I'm actually swimming them an angle away from Tim.

    29. TFTim Ferriss2:01:54

        So forward-

    30. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:01:55

        Yeah, exactly
35. 2:03:31 – 2:09:21

    Is your smartphone sterilizing you?

    1. TFTim Ferriss2:03:31

       Yeah.

    2. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:03:31

       So L-carnitine can really help. Avoid smoking anything. You know, i- the issue of tinctures and edibles is a different subject altogether. I think the big wow for me was something, again, I'm just gonna tip my hat to you, which is that, in 2015, I taught a class at, I was then a professor at UC San Diego, on neural circuits in health and disease, and I decided to do a lecture on whether or not cell phones inhibit sperm health and/or testosterone level. The data were very mixed, frankly. There were essentially two good studies in rats, each of them taking a standard smartphone, putting it under a rat's cage, and then looking at some metrics related to testicular health, sperm health, et cetera. One showed increases in testosterone, the other showed decreases. So it was, it was kind of a disappointing situation, so I would present both. Now, there is an extensive meta-analysis, I can send you this for the r- for the show notes if you like, an extensive meta-analysis-

    3. TFTim Ferriss2:04:32

       I'll-

    4. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:04:32

       ... of dozens of studies-

    5. TFTim Ferriss2:04:33

       I'll add it to the next reprint of The 4-Hour Body

    6. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:04:35

       ... and it very convincingly shows that keeping the cell phone in one's pocket, so this isn't putting it to your head, this isn't putting it on the desk in front of you, but keeping it on and in one's pocket, and it does not matter if it's on Wi-Fi or you're using cellular, decreases sperm quality, which means forward motility, number of healthy sperm per ejaculate, et cetera, even ejaculate volume to some extent, and lowers testosterone overall, which is perhaps not surprising given the known heat effects of the phone. So even though it doesn't feel hot to the touch, there are heat effects. Sperm don't like heat. In fact, the most promising male contraceptive that's out there that's not a condom is a, it's like a cuff that goes around the vas deferens, which is the portal from the testes to the urethra that allows the ejaculate to leave the body, that heats that, right?

    7. TFTim Ferriss2:05:29

       Right.

    8. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:05:29

       I mean, a sauna will, it's not a great form of contraception-

    9. TFTim Ferriss2:05:32

       Mm-hmm

    10. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:05:32

        ... 'cause it's not sureproof, but it will reduce your total number of motile sperm by 75% or so. When I go in the sauna, 'cause I do hope to-

    11. TFTim Ferriss2:05:40

        75% is a lot. [laughs]

    12. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:05:41

        When I do hope to conceive children somewhat, so I wear shorts into the sauna and I actually put a, a cold pack at my groin-

    13. TFTim Ferriss2:05:47

        Yeah

    14. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:05:47

        ... while I'm in there. It's actually ki- when the sauna's really hot, it's also, it makes it a little less unpleasant. [laughs]

    15. TFTim Ferriss2:05:53

        [laughs]

    16. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:05:53

        It's a little painful. But you definitely don't want to do that on bare skin. I'm chuckling too, but heat is part of the problem with the cellphone.

    17. TFTim Ferriss2:06:01

        Yeah.

    18. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:06:01

        But it turns out, yes, and here people are gonna think I'm a, like, crazy person, but they might think that already, the EMFs, that business is real.

    19. TFTim Ferriss2:06:08

        Yeah.

    20. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:06:09

        Now, is it so real that it's giving us gliomas? Unclear. I'm not gonna go there. The data aren't in. But it is very clear that the radiation from phones, the EMFs, and the heat are combining to reduce sperm quality, motility, and overall testosterone. So it's a simple thing. Turn off your phone completely, or even better, just don't put it in your front pocket. If you have to put it in a pocket, put it in your back pocket. If you, even better would be to put it in a shoulder pocket or a backpack. And I also, I'm a weirdo perhaps, but I don't like keeping the phone to the, my head too long, but that's also 'cause I al- don't like holding the [laughs] phone to my head for too long. We don't know very much about the effects of EMFs and heat effects on the different tissues of the body, but we now know a lot about the effects of heat and EMFs on sperm quality, and it's not a good picture for the sperm.

    21. TFTim Ferriss2:07:00

        Hmm. Where does airplane mode fit into this equation, if at all?

    22. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:07:06

        Yeah.

    23. TFTim Ferriss2:07:06

        In terms of between on and off. I mean, does it prevent or mitigate some of the effects perhaps?

    24. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:07:13

        It seems to.

    25. TFTim Ferriss2:07:14

        Yeah.

    26. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:07:15

        It seems to. Here's what's really scary about this meta-analysis. Their conclusion is that the total amount of time spent with the phone in the pocket is not a strong determinant, that it's, it's not all or none, but that the threshold beyond which you start seeing these damaging effects is pretty low.

    27. TFTim Ferriss2:07:31

        Hmm.

    28. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:07:32

        So, you know, I, again, here we're talking about a don't, not a do, and so it's pretty straightforward. You know, don't keep the phone in your front pocket if you're concerned with sperm health-

    29. TFTim Ferriss2:07:41

        Yeah

    30. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:07:41

        ... and testosterone production. Now, why is sperm health and testosterone production so correlated? And you say, "Well, duh, it's 'cause, you know, testosterone and sperm." But if you're not interested in conceiving children, you might not think this is an issue. But remember that the two types of cells, those Leydig cells and the Sertoli cells of the- Of the testes combine testosterone and the androgen-binding protein to give rise to sperm. So any time you're seeing a reduction in sperm, y- you are definitely seeing that as a reflection of a reduction in androgen-binding protein, which means whatever testosterone you have around is also not having the effect on that local organ-
36. 2:09:21 – 2:16:05

    Lessons learned from IVF.

    1. TFTim Ferriss2:09:21

       embryos, even though you can say it only takes one sperm in IVF as well, you wanna stack the odds in your favor, which means you need good morphology, good motility, and you need a good count-

    2. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:09:35

       Mm-hmm

    3. TFTim Ferriss2:09:35

       ... of non-crippled sperm. [laughs]

    4. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:09:38

       Yeah. Sperm analysis can be a humbling thing because, you know, no matter what, no one's getting 100% motile, forwardly motile. Everyone, males and females, learn a lot about their biology, what they're doing well, what they're doing less well when going down that pathway of IVF, I think.

    5. TFTim Ferriss2:09:55

       Yeah.

    6. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:09:56

       I think for women one of the big surprises is that it doesn't take much ingestion of alcohol to diminish egg quality. You know, beyond two or three drinks per week, per week, you really start to see reductions in egg quality that are probably indirect through effects on diminished sleep and changes in stress hormones. And so, you know, again, some people will be more resilient to this than others. People always like to make jokes about how alcohol facilitates the conception process, you know, et cetera.

    7. TFTim Ferriss2:10:29

       [laughs]

    8. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:10:30

       You know, I think that in general, you know, if women are having very regular cycles, whether or not they're 28 days long or 35 days long is less important perhaps than they be fairly regular. Women in general tend to know more about their bodies and, because they cycle, than, than men. But I, if I could go back in time to my 30s, I sure, sure would have banked sperm then.

    9. TFTim Ferriss2:10:49

       Yeah.

    10. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:10:50

        And, you know, I feel good about where I've gotten my parameters, but it's really interesting as you learn this you, you just realize that freezing sperm, freezing eggs is a great idea.

    11. TFTim Ferriss2:11:00

        Mm-hmm.

    12. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:11:00

        And freezing embryos makes sense if you have the appropriate pairing or situation, right?

    13. TFTim Ferriss2:11:05

        Yeah.

    14. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:11:06

        And that life gets so much easier for those wishing to conceive when you have healthy embryos frozen in the bank.

    15. TFTim Ferriss2:11:14

        Yeah.

    16. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:11:14

        Anyway, for those challenged in that area, it also becomes this, like, incredibly expensive, emotionally and financially expensive battle.

    17. TFTim Ferriss2:11:20

        Yeah. I will, I will say, much to my surprise, that this is, I mean, within the last year I suppose, prior to the breakup of course, but going through the IVF or at least embryo creation process, my sperm quality, because I h- I have banked starting probably, I, un- unfortunately not as reliably as I would've liked, but probably starting around 2010 or 2012.

    18. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:11:51

        Oh, okay. Quite a while ago.

    19. TFTim Ferriss2:11:53

        Banking sperm. Sadly, there was actually a technical issue at this particular location-

    20. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:12:00

        Oh, yeah?

    21. TFTim Ferriss2:12:00

        ... in San Francisco because they were bought by some larger conglomerate, and I think a lot of the samples were lost. But the point I was gonna make is that after trying to do a deep dive, taking copious amounts [laughs] of L-carnitine, adding in a few other things like maca and a handful of, of other basics, my sperm quality is actually better, seemingly better now than it was 10 years ago.

    22. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:12:26

        Mm.

    23. TFTim Ferriss2:12:27

        Which is shocking.

    24. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:12:28

        Yeah. I mean, it's, again, if, if one is doing the right things-

    25. TFTim Ferriss2:12:31

        Yeah

    26. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:12:31

        ... I do think that we can perform physically, probably in the domain of sexual health too. I think that's a, that's a misconception-

    27. TFTim Ferriss2:12:39

        Yeah

    28. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:12:39

        ... that, you know, oh, like, you know, men peak in their 80s sex- 1880s.

    29. TFTim Ferriss2:12:43

        [laughs]

    30. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:12:43

        Excuse me, at 18.
37. 2:16:05 – 2:17:24

    The consequences of having more than two drinks a week.

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:16:05

       And then, y- you know, alcohol, again, not trying to, you know, rain on anybody's party here, but past two drinks a week, you know, is when you start seeing some negative health effects in males and females. I did a long episode on this. By the way, I drink the occasional drink every once in a while. I like white tequilas, things of that, that sort.

    2. TFTim Ferriss2:16:21

       This, the number two most shared podcast in the world in 2022.

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:16:24

       Yeah, I did not expect that at all.

    4. TFTim Ferriss2:16:25

       What alcohol does to your body, brain, and health.

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:16:28

       Yeah. I did not expect it to have that kind of traction. I, there's no agenda there. I think a lot of people think that I'm in AA or something. I have deep respect for th- that community, but no, I've never had a problem with alcohol or drugs. It's never been my thing. So that there was no agenda whatsoever. I think that alcohol is a n- toxin, you know, essentially making a toxin for your cells. That's part of its, the way it creates its effects. Look, it can be enjoyed. I also think that if people are going to drink more than two drinks per week, they want to pay more attention to the other things that we talked about at the beginning.

    6. TFTim Ferriss2:16:58

       Yep.

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:16:59

       Nutrients, sunlight, exercise, sleep, et cetera. I'm not trying to say what people should or shouldn't do. They should just know what they're doing.

    8. TFTim Ferriss2:17:05

       Yeah. And talking about how the preceding 24 hours leads to the current 24 hours, which leads to the next 24 hours, a friend of mine, I don't, I won't give him credit 'cause he probably doesn't want it, but he s- [laughs] he was quoting someone else, so it doesn't really matter, but he said, "Alcohol is borrowing happiness from tomorrow."

    9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:17:22

       Oh, yeah.

    10. TFTim Ferriss2:17:22

        And I was like, "Yeah."

    11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:17:23

        Yeah.

    12. TFTim Ferriss2:17:23

        "That's a, that's a good way to put it."

38. 2:17:24 – 2:19:01

    Cocaine? Just say no.

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:17:24

       Yeah, and I've never tried cocaine, but from what I hear, cocaine is borrowing happiness from 10 minutes from now.

    2. TFTim Ferriss2:17:28

       [laughs]

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:17:29

       I, I spoke to a guy recently who's a, who is a former cocaine addict, and I said, "What does it feel like?" And he said, "Let me just explain it this way." By the way, this is not a direct quote. I'm, I'm quoting somebody else. He said that the first time he did cocaine, his experience was one of, "Wow, that was terrible, and when can I get more?"

    4. TFTim Ferriss2:17:46

       Oh, God.

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:17:46

       Like, uh, so that the gestalt of the experience-

    6. TFTim Ferriss2:17:49

       Terrible

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:17:49

       ... was a peak and then a trough-

    8. TFTim Ferriss2:17:50

       So bad

    9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:17:50

       ... that we know exists.

    10. TFTim Ferriss2:17:51

        Yeah.

    11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:17:51

        The dopamine system drops below baseline. I'm, I'm too afraid to try cocaine, and especially nowadays with the fentanyl that's laced in-

    12. TFTim Ferriss2:17:58

        Oh, yeah

    13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:17:58

        ... so many street drugs.

    14. TFTim Ferriss2:18:00

        I know two people, they were at a bachelor party in Mexico, otherwise very responsible folks, but they decided to do what a lot of people do at such parties and decided to do cocaine. They, they each did one line, not a copious amount. These were not cocaine users. Both of them immediately collapsed on the floor. One died and one ended up in a coma-

    15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:18:27

        Fentanyl

    16. TFTim Ferriss2:18:27

        ... for a period of time. Fentanyl. My best friend growing up also was given, unbeknownst to him, fentanyl, died, went, fell asleep, didn't wake up. So be very-

    17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:18:38

        So sorry

    18. TFTim Ferriss2:18:38

        ... careful out there, folks. Fentanyl is no joke, and there are other things as well, but many, many, many, many, many drugs are cut with fentanyl, including those that at face value you would think make no sense.

    19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:18:52

        Like Ambien.

    20. TFTim Ferriss2:18:53

        Yeah.

    21. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:18:54

        Yeah.

    22. TFTim Ferriss2:18:54

        Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so-

    23. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:18:55

        Or cocaine. I mean, why, why they would cut fentanyl, which is essentially a sedative-

    24. TFTim Ferriss2:19:00

        Yeah

    25. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:19:00

        ... into a

39. 2:19:01 – 2:28:35

    Concerns about cannabis.

    1. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:19:01

       stimulant like cocaine makes no sense to me, but-

    2. TFTim Ferriss2:19:03

       And yet-

    3. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:19:04

       Yeah

    4. TFTim Ferriss2:19:04

       ... that's what's happening.

    5. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:19:05

       Yeah.

    6. TFTim Ferriss2:19:05

       So be careful out there, folks. So to move from cocaine to maybe a, a, a lesser villain, I wanna revisit cannabis for just a second.

    7. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:19:13

       Mm-hmm.

    8. TFTim Ferriss2:19:14

       So cannabis in, I'm curious to know, because I, I have experienced incredible, well, let's say, um, there, um, there may be trade-offs, but benefits with respect to onset insomnia from low-dose edible, I could say cannabis, but in, in this case, you know, we're talking about in legal settings w- where state governments allow this, say 2.5 milligrams of THC.

    9. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:19:41

       Mm-hmm.

    10. TFTim Ferriss2:19:43

        With CBD, it just takes too high, I mean, I would have to consume just kind of a, a mountain of it for it to, for it to subjectively help with that. What are the trade-offs, if any, with dosages in that range, if you're aware?

    11. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:19:56

        Yeah, it depends on who you are. So I did an episode on cannabis. I also had on our mutual friend Nolan Williams, who's a, one of these ... freaks of nature. He's a triple board-certified psychiatrist, neurologist, neurologist at Stanford-

    12. TFTim Ferriss2:20:09

        Underachiever

    13. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:20:10

        [laughs] Yeah, real underachiever. Doing a lot on combination of psychedelics with transcranial magnetic stimulation. Talked about cannabis and I did a solo episode on cannabis, which means basically all I did was think about, read about, and talk to people about cannabis for months on end. Here's the story with cannabis. It's, as you point out, it's going to be the ratio of THC to CBD that's important, and for the real aficionados out there, and boy are they out there, 'cause they let me know-

    14. TFTim Ferriss2:20:31

        Oh, they are

    15. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:20:32

        ... there's also the terpenes.

    16. TFTim Ferriss2:20:34

        Yeah.

    17. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:20:34

        They're gonna be the lemon-like terpenes and the other kinds of terpenes and chemicals in these, these that are also gonna matter. And then also it's gonna be smoking, vaping, edible or tincture.

    18. TFTim Ferriss2:20:44

        Mm.

    19. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:20:44

        Those are gonna be the... So here's the deal. Smoking or vaping anything is bad, nicotine or cannabis, or worse for you than edible or tincture. Let's just move that off to the side. High THC concentration cannabis, of which now there is almost pure THC cannabis available, is dangerous for the following reason, and there I just pissed off some people. But first of all, it does have therapeutic applications for glaucoma, pain management, maybe even some mental health effects, ability to help pe- certain people focus at low dose. But for, in particular young males in their teens, early teens and 20s who take high-THC-containing cannabis, there is a much greater, like 4X increase in probability of psychotic episodes later that don't ever reverse.

    20. TFTim Ferriss2:21:35

        Mm.

    21. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:21:36

        In fact, when I spoke to the leading researcher on this up in Canada, she told me that the probability that a lot of what we see as kind of street homelessness now, what people appear to be schizophrenic, was likely triggered by high-dose cannabis use. Now I'm not trying to return us to the 1960s and talk about devil's weed and this kind of thing. It is clear that cannabis has therapeutic benefits, but very high potency THC cannabis can be a problem. At the dosage you describe, 2.5 milligrams, very unlikely to be a problem. Now-

    22. TFTim Ferriss2:22:08

        Psychologically speaking

    23. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:22:09

        ... psychologically speaking.

    24. TFTim Ferriss2:22:10

        Yeah.

    25. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:22:10

        Yeah.

    26. TFTim Ferriss2:22:10

        And I mean, I could be on 2.5, I'm not, but I could be on 2.5 right now and it would be-

    27. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:22:14

        Yeah

    28. TFTim Ferriss2:22:14

        ... it would not be discernible.

    29. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:22:15

        Sub-perceptible dose. It's kind of like micro dose.

    30. TFTim Ferriss2:22:17

        I would feel it-
40. 2:28:35 – 2:35:26

    Changing thoughts on psychedelics.

    1. TFTim Ferriss2:28:35

       So how has your thinking, any observations, commentary, beliefs around psychedelics changed over the last few years?

    2. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:28:49

       My beliefs and stance and also what I'm willing to say-

    3. TFTim Ferriss2:28:53

       Mm-hmm

    4. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:28:53

       ... has completely changed in the last 24 months. This last week, Stanford Magazine, which is a magazine of the Stanford Alumni Association, goes out to many more people than just who attended Stanford, put out an issue of this... It's a very nice bound magazine of the kind that you would, you know, see at the dentist office or, you know.

    5. TFTim Ferriss2:29:11

       [laughs]

    6. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:29:13

       On the cover and inside, there's a feature article about psychedelics. I could not believe it at first.

    7. TFTim Ferriss2:29:20

       Mm.

    8. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:29:20

       But it is essentially a guide to psychedelics. It's not telling you how to do them, but it explains what is ketamine. Now, here they're broadly defining psychedelics.

    9. TFTim Ferriss2:29:29

       Mm-hmm.

    10. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:29:29

        Okay? So the classic psychedelics, right, psilocybin, mescaline, LSD are included there. Chemical structures, how they're used, the history, clinical trials happening now, known benefits, considerations and risks for all of those drugs, plus ketamine, plus MDMA. I was just shocked, uh, positively shocked because three years ago, five years ago, certainly ten years ago, a conversation like this would've been the conversation that would have ended my career-

    11. TFTim Ferriss2:29:55

        Yeah

    12. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:29:55

        ... at least as a university professor. My understanding is that thanks to the incredible work of the group with MAPS and a number of specific laboratories, Matthew Johnson's laboratory, Robin Carhart-Harris' laboratory, Roland Griffiths' laboratory, and thanks to the philanthropy organized by you and others, truly, and also thanks to the public education efforts of people like Michael Pollan-

    13. TFTim Ferriss2:30:18

        For sure

    14. AHDr. Andrew Huberman2:30:19

        ... we are moving very quickly towards legalization of MDMA as administered by either psychiatrists and/or clin- licensed clinical psychologists in the US. Psilocybin probably a longer road, but I'm told that we'll get there, quote, unquote. Why am I framing it this way? Well, I'll just be very direct. In high school, I took LSD recreationally several times, had not good experiences. The experiences were far too long, 11, 15 hours. I might have spent my senior prom in an elevator. [laughs] You know?

Episode duration: 2:59:05