Dr Andrew Weil — Optimal Health, Plant Medicine, and More | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)

Tim Ferriss 0:00 Optimal minimal At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake. Can I ask you a personal question? Now would seem an appropriate time. What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton. The Tim Ferriss Show. This episode is brought to you by Audible. Audible provides an unbeatable selection of audiobooks, including bestsellers, how-to, mysteries, thrillers, memoirs, and more. I've used Audible for many years, and I have a few audiobooks to recommend right off the bat. Number one, Ready Player One by Ernest Cline. So listen to the book that caught the attention of Spielberg enough to get made into a major film. The writing is fantastic. The Tao of Seneca by Seneca the Younger. This is a collection of letters, my favorite compilation of letters of all time that I've recommended the most of all the books I've ever read. And The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman. This is the fiction book that I use to convert nonfiction purists into fiction lovers. I like the version that Neil reads himself, but that's just me. He has a hypnotic voice. I also recently enjoyed Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg, which was recommended to me by best-selling author Neil Strauss. Make sure to get the audiobook version, and you will recognize it by the peace sign on the cover. And as an Audible subscriber, you can choose three titles every month, one audiobook and two Audible originals you can't hear anywhere else. And there's some really, really cool stuff among the Audible originals. You can listen on any device, anytime, anywhere, at home, at the gym, while you're cooking, on your commute, or wherever. I often listen to audiobooks when I'm walking my pooch or on the way to the gym, so on and so forth. You'll also enjoy easy audiobook exchanges. In other words, if you don't like what you buy and you're like, ah, I have buyer's remorse, you can swap it. Rollover credits. So if you don't use credits in a given month, they roll over into the next. And an audiobook library you keep forever, even if you cancel. This last part is important. Unlike, say, a streaming or rental service, with Audible, you own your books, even if you cancel your membership. And right now, for a limited time, you can get three months of Audible for just $6.95 a month. That's $6.95 a month. And that is also more than half off the regular price. So give yourself the gift of listening. And while you're at it, think about giving the gift of Audible to someone on your list. For more, go to audible.com forward slash Tim, T-I-M that is, audible.com forward slash Tim, or text Tim, T-I-M, to 500-500. I get asked all the time, if you could only use one supplement, what would it be? And my answer is inevitably Athletic Greens. It is your all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body, did not get paid for that. And I travel with it to avoid getting sick. I take it in the mornings to ensure optimal performance. It just covers all my bases if I can't get what I need through whole food meals throughout the rest of the day. If you want to give Athletic Greens a try, they are offering a free 20-count travel pack for first-time users. I always travel with at least three or four of these. This represents a $100 value. So if you buy Athletic Greens, you get an extra $100 in free product. So check it out, athleticgreens.com forward slash Tim. Again, that's athleticgreens.com forward slash Tim for your free travel pack with any purchase. Well, hello, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to tease out the habits, routines, favorite books, life lessons, and so on from world-class performers of all different stripes. And my guest today is Andrew Weil, M.D., otherwise known as Dr. Weil. He is a world-renowned leader and pioneer in the field of integrative medicine, and we've had a chance to spend some time together over the last few years, and we dig into some very fun stories. Andrew was born in Philadelphia in 1942. He received a degree in biology slash botany from Harvard College in 1964 and an M.D. from Harvard Medical School in 1968. After completing a medical internship at Mt. Zion Hospital in San Francisco, he worked a year with the National Institute of Mental Health, then wrote his first book, The Natural Mind. From 1971 to 1975, as a fellow of the Institute of Current World Affairs, Dr. Weil traveled widely in North and South America and Africa, collecting information on drug use in other cultures, medicinal plants, and alternative methods of treating disease. From 1971 to 1984, he was on the research staff of the Harvard Botanical Museum and conducted investigations of medicinal and psychoactive plants. We spent quite a bit of time talking about that. Dr. Weil is the founder and director of the University of Arizona Center for Integrative Medicine, where he also holds the Lovell-Jones Endowed Chair in Integrative Rheumatology and is Clinical Professor of Medicine and Professor of Public Health. Through its Fellowship in Integrative Medicine in Residency curricula, the center is now training doctors and nurse practitioners around the world. Dr. Weil is the editorial director of the popular website drweil.com, a regular guest on video programs on PBS, and the author of 15 books. My God, I've barely done five. I don't know how one can do 15. It's a lot. Including bestsellers such as Eight Weeks to Optimum Health, Spontaneous Happiness, Mind Over Meds, Fast Food, Good Food, and Healthy Aging. He can be found on Facebook at facebook.com forward slash drweil and on Twitter at drweil. So without further ado, please enjoy a very wide-ranging and often hysterical conversation with Dr. Weil.

Tim Ferriss 6:01 Dr. Weil, welcome to the show.

Dr. Andrew Weil 6:03 Thank you. I'm very happy to be here.

Tim Ferriss 6:05 I am thrilled to finally have you on the podcast be- because, uh, it gives us a chance to also catch up. I have not had the opportunity to hear your latest and greatest adventures in quite some time, and some of the memories that I have of the interactions we've had, and I have to thank, uh, Kevin Rose, I think, initially for making-

Dr. Andrew Weil 6:29 Uh-huh

Tim Ferriss 6:29 ... that connection, relate to your incredible gardens and plants. So I thought that a, a logical place to begin this conversation might be discussing your love affair with plants. What-

Dr. Andrew Weil 6:45 Uh-

Tim Ferriss 6:45 Can y- can you talk about how this started? W-

Dr. Andrew Weil 6:48 I think it started with my mother when I was a kid. Uh, uh, and she got that from her mother, who had a real green thumb. So I grew up in a row house in Philadelphia. We had very little, uh, ground behind the house, but, uh, my mother and I used to plant all sorts of seeds, and I grew b- flowering bulbs indoors. So that started my interest. And then as an undergraduate at Harvard, I majored in botany, which was a very unusual major, I mean, very old-fashioned in, in, uh, those days. But I had the good fortune to have as a mentor, uh, Richard Schultes, the director of the Harvard Botanical Museum, who is considered the godfather of modern ethnobotany. He had spent 14 years in the Amazon, was ... And one of his interests was hallucinogenic plants. So studying with him got me interested in medicinal plants, and that really became a career interest. And I, I always dreamed of having big enough space to grow a real garden. And, uh, I now have that both in Tucson, where I live in the winter, and in British Columbia, where I am in the summer. So I grow a lot of my own food. I grow flowers. The... All that gives me a great deal

Dr. Andrew Weil 7:52 of pleasure.

Tim Ferriss 7:53 Are there any particular go-to plants, let's just say, in, uh, in either of those places, uh, perh- perhaps they're different just based on the climates, that you use, uh, on a, on an ongoing daily or weekly basis for food or for other health purposes?

Dr. Andrew Weil 8:12 Well, in terms of foods, uh, I, I just say there's nothing like having fresh food from the garden. Uh, and I, I'm a very avid home cook. I like simple dishes that are easy to prepare, and many people who eat my food say they've never tasted such good food. Uh, well, the secret is that it's fresh food, and I think many people have never tasted plants, plant foods that come right out of the garden. In terms of, uh, medicinal plants, probably one of my go-tos is garlic. Uh, I grow my own garlic, and garlic has many health benefits. It's an an- very powerful antibiotic. It lowers cholesterol, blood pressure, many uses. And, uh, you gotta use it fresh and raw. Uh, anything you do to garlic lowers its medicinal properties.

Tim Ferriss 8:54 Hmm. Y- you mentioned Ch- uh, Schultes a moment ago and give, give a snapshot of your, your history with plants. Can you put the following in sort of chronological order? The, the book Doors of Perception, nutmeg, and cannabis in terms of, of your interest.

Dr. Andrew Weil 9:14 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 9:14 What, what is the proper order of those three?

Dr. Andrew Weil 9:17 Uh, Doors of Perception first. That was written by Aldous Huxley. Um, I'm not exactly sure of the date, but he came to MIT to give a series of lectures on states of consciousness, on visionary experience, and that I remember was in, uh, 1960. And I was a, um, freshman at Harvard, and I listened to his lectures on radio, and that really inspired me to take mescaline, which he had written about in, uh, Doors of Perception. So I wrote him and asked him, "How do I get mescaline?" And he wrote back and gave me the name of a lab in New York. [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 9:54 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 9:55 I wrote to them, but they wanted all sorts of paperwork, and, uh, I found another company that would sell it, no questions asked. This was in the days before thalidomide, and the FDA did not require... There weren't many regulations on getting drugs for experimental use. Anyway, packages of mescaline arrived outside my dorm door-

Tim Ferriss 10:12 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 10:12 ... delivered by UPS. And so in 1960, uh, never having smoked pot or really experimented with any, uh, psychedelics, I took mescaline. Um, a number of friends and I did it, uh, several times. And I didn't really have a context in which to put it. You know, I didn't know people who were using psychedelics. Um, nonetheless, it showed me possibilities which I wasn't really prepared to follow at that time. I think if I had, I would never have gone to medical school.

Tim Ferriss 10:39 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 10:39 So Aldous Huxley, Doors of Perception came first. Um, under Schultes, uh, to... I opted to get an honors degree in botany, which is part of the biology department. I had to write a thesis for that. So the thesis I wrote was on nutmeg as a narcotic. Uh, nutmeg is a, is a psychoactive drug if you take enough of it, and, uh, it was being used mostly by people who couldn't get better drugs, such as prisoners. Uh, you have to take a whole can of powdered nutmeg. I don't recommend that.

Tim Ferriss 11:09 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 11:09 Or eat one or two whole nutmegs. It, [laughs] it's pretty hard to choke it down. And, uh, you, you do get high on it, but, um, that's... I'd say it's a pretty third-rate high. Any rate, I wrote that paper.

Tim Ferriss 11:21 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 11:21 Uh, it got picked up by a lot of people, including tabloids, uh, talking about people getting high on nutmeg. So that was really my first academic paper. Then, um... What was the third book that you asked about?

Tim Ferriss 11:35 Oh, no, it was the, the s- the second, or I suppose the third if we count mescaline, third of the s- the compounds or plants, which would be cannabis.

Dr. Andrew Weil 11:44 So, uh, back in those days, in the early 1960s, I didn't know people who smoked cannabis, and I didn't really try it till 1964, uh, when I was a senior in college. I didn't get any effect from it. Um, then I went to Harvard Medical School, and I began using it and having, you know, very enjoyable highs from it. It amazed me that, uh, as, as cannabis was getting a lot of attention and causing a lot of controversy, there had been no research done with it. Uh, really nothing. A- astonishing. There had been one, uh, series of... One experiment done in 1937, I think. Uh, but since then, nobody had given marijuana to human beings to see what it did. So as a senior in medical school, I, uh, I devoted my elective time to research to try to do the first human controlled double-blind studies with marijuana. I can't even begin to tell you what a challenge that was. Many people bet me that there was no way I'd get permission. It meant coordinating the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, the Massachusetts state authorities, the universities. Nonetheless, uh, I did it. I, uh, gave marijuana to human subjects and published this as a lead story in Science, um, in, uh, 1968. Uh, it bec- was front page news on The New York Times. It concluded that marijuana was a relatively mild intoxicant. Um, I showed that it did not dilate pupils. Cops were arresting people who had dilated eyes and said that was probable cause for searching them for marijuana. Uh, showed that it didn't lower blood sugar, which was often invoked as the cause for the munchies.

Tim Ferriss 13:19 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 13:20 Uh, [laughs] and that while in people who'd never had it before, you could demonstrate some impairment on basic psychological and psychomotor tests. If you gave it to ig- people who were experienced with it, you couldn't really show anything like that. So the basic conclusion was relatively mild intoxicant. I thought that m- that pot would be legal in five years. Boy, was I wrong. Uh, [laughs] yeah, I thought it was just a matter of getting the right information out there. Uh, I quickly learned that people believe what they wanna believe and don't believe what they don't wanna believe.

Tim Ferriss 13:54 Now, this is, this, this is a perfect segue in terms of belief and expectation because my, my understanding is that one of the, just in doing some homework for this, one of the challenges of the experimental design, and I don't know if it was the IRB or maybe a different acronym at the time, for, uh, putting this study into practice, was working with nai- naive subjects, people who had not had any exposure.

Dr. Andrew Weil 14:20 Exactly.

Tim Ferriss 14:21 Could you talk about why that's, that was important to you?

Dr. Andrew Weil 14:24 Because I wanted to see what marijuana did in people that had no expectations of what it would do. Uh, my intuition told me that what you expected of pot and all drugs and the setting in which you took it, uh, were as important as the drug itself. So this idea that drug effects are a combined effect of drug, set and setting, I think is a, a basic to understanding how mind-altering drugs work. And with marijuana, where the, the physical effects are really relatively subtle, uh, it, there is... I think you really have to learn to get high on it. You have to associate an altered state with it. Uh, so it was very important to me to use people who'd never had it. That became a great sticking point with the two universities, Boston University and Harvard, that had to give approval for this because they, their fear was that if you introduced people to this drug, they would soon be heroin addicts in the street. Um, anyway, finally got permission to do that. I'll tell you one funny story.

Tim Ferriss 15:20 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 15:21 The, uh, the cops who were involved in this, the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, this was the old Treasury Department, uh, cops, um, and the Massachusetts cops kept bugging me to come down to our lab and watch people smoke marijuana 'cause they'd never seen anyone smoke marijuana.

Tim Ferriss 15:36 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 15:37 Uh, and I said, "Look, we can't have you there because that would be a major disturbance of set and setting." But I said if they were patient-

Tim Ferriss 15:43 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 15:44 ... and we had time, we'd do a demo for them at the end when the experiments were finished. So one night, we had two of my, you know, friends who were labeled chronic users of marijuana agreed to smoke it in our laboratory. And this bunch of guys, two from the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, I think there were two from Massachusetts, came. Um, and these people, they had to smoke two of these joints that we had rolled. It was relatively mild by today's standards. And they smoked them, and then we're, we were giving them these tests. So the one cop sidles up to me and elbows me and says, you know, "When is it gonna happen?" And I knew what he was after. I said, "What do you mean?" He said, you know, "When, when, when's, when, when does it happen?" And I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "Well, when do they get high?" And I said, "Well, they are high." And he said, "No, no." He said, "When do they, you know, when do they get high?" I don't know what his expectation was.

Tim Ferriss 16:32 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 16:33 Ripping off their clothes, running around screaming. But here were these two guys just sitting there, you know, doing their pursuit rotor tests and the numerical tests, and they weren't any different. That was a very sobering experience for these law enforcement agents.

Tim Ferriss 16:46 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 16:47 And, you know, over the... [laughs] And at, at that time and since, many people would ask me, "How can you tell if a person is high?" And I said that you really can't unless they volunteer that information. You know, maybe their whites of their eyes are red, but nothing else. That, that was very upsetting to many people.

Tim Ferriss 17:03 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 17:04 So after I published that study, I was in great demand as an expert on cannabis. This was in, you know, 1969, 1970, 1971. And I was asked to testify about it in front of Congress and be an expert witness in various things and give lectures. I made it a rule for myself that I would never do that unless I was stoned. So I would always smoke pot, you know, right before I had to testify or...

Tim Ferriss 17:28 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 17:28 I should say, by the way, uh, it's, you know, while I was a fairly serious user of pot in my 20s and 30s, I have, have not been much of a user of it in later in life. But anyway, it was fun to do that, and also to be in a position where I'd be lecturing or testifying and, and people would ask that question, "How [laughs] can you tell if a person is high on pot?" And I would say, "You can't unless they volunteer that information." Of course, I did not volunteer that I was high on pot.

Tim Ferriss 17:51 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 17:54 All right. I have so many, I have so many follow-up questions here.

Dr. Andrew Weil 17:57 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 17:57 The, I wanna rewind for a second because I think these two might be related. Can you describe your first mescaline experience? Was it a-

Dr. Andrew Weil 18:08 I s-

Tim Ferriss 18:08 Was it a, was it a Huxley-like explosion of aesthetic e-

Dr. Andrew Weil 18:12 It was as far from it as you could imagine.

Tim Ferriss 18:14 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 18:14 I was in a, a dorm room at Harvard in this old dilapidated building, Claverly Hall. It was on a Saturday afternoon, and I and one other, a roommate of mine took it. We took, uh, half a gram of pure mescaline, and there was about seven people sitting around watching to see what would happen, uh, before they decided whether they wanted to try it or not.

Tim Ferriss 18:35 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 18:35 So, uh, you know, I f- after about... I didn't feel anything for a long time, and after maybe an hour and a half, I began to feel some physical effects. You know, I, I just felt a little, uh... I didn't know how to... The only drug experience I'd had up to that point was with alcohol, and so that was the only thing I could compare it to. So I felt a little different. At that moment exactly, the phone rang, and it was my mother calling [laughs] from Philadelphia. [laughs] Uh, a- sh- we never t- I n- we never talked except on Sundays we would call, and I'd call my parents. So she called and said, "What are you doing?" And I said, "Well, I'm just sitting around with some friends." And she said, "Why aren't you outside?" And, uh, I said, "Well, it's, you know, I'm just s- uh, sitting here." And she said, "I hope you're not doing anything foolish like taking mescaline or anything like that."

Tim Ferriss 19:20 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 19:21 Now, I had, I had mentioned the word mescaline at the dinner table maybe three months before and said I was interested. I got such a reaction from my parents that I d- never said another word about it. Um, there'd been an article in the newspaper about a kid who died supposedly from an overdose of it. So talk about, you know, mothers being psychic.

Tim Ferriss 19:39 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 19:39 I said, "Oh, no, Mother, of course I wouldn't be doing anything like that." So that kind of affected my, my experience. But I really had n-no significant psychological change from that time. The second time I took it, I did have a very profound, uh, altered state, and, uh, uh, it's hard to describe, but I had a real sense of, of oneness of everything and, um, a much larger reality out there than I had been aware of. And I think I had to put that in a kind of box and tie it up because if I had followed that, I don't think I would've been able to stay in school and get a medical degree. So I just boxed that up until I had a chance to explore that.

Tim Ferriss 20:20 Uh, I think we will come back to the, the exploration. You, you mentioned one thing in passing that I wanted to just, uh, follow up on since I know people are probably wondering, and that is you mentioned you used to be a heavy or a consistent cannabis user, not so much so in your more recent years. Why, why has that changed?

Dr. Andrew Weil 20:41 You know, I found that, um, my experiences with it changed over time. And in, when I first, uh, was using it, uh, in my, I would say, in my, um, you know, mid-20s, um, my, the highs that I had with it were, were light, bubbly, hysterical, a lot of laughing, you know, sitting around with f- uh, with people, um, se- and sensual enjoyment of food and music and all that. Um, after several years of that, I think the highs changed for me. I was using it more heavily, but the highs changed for me, uh, to be more introspective, and it was in that period that I think i-i-it really stimulated my imagination. It was great for writing. Uh, my first book, th- uh, The Natural Mind, that I wrote in, I wrote it in 1971, it was published in '72, uh, about drugs and altered states. You know, I think a lot of that felt channeled as a result of being in the states of consciousness that cannabis ushered me into. So there was a period of, think of a, a... Then I was living in South America for s- for a number of years. I used pot pretty regularly. And during that time, I think the experiences changed more in the direction of being more sedative, and it would tend to make me groggy and not creative and imaginative. And that went on for a long time. And, um, you know, I finally just felt that didn't do much for me. So I, I, I weaned myself off it, which took some doing. Uh, and then I began to use it just occasionally with friends as a social thing. So now I just, I personally don't like the effect of it very much. So I think my body has changed, my brain has changed. It was a real ally for me in the early part of my life. Now I'm more interested i-in, at it for its medicinal uses and, uh, you know, of course, I'm, I'm delighted to see our society finally d- coming to some sensible terms with that

Dr. Andrew Weil 22:35 plant.

Tim Ferriss 22:36 We, we are gonna get to South America because I have, I, I've, I have certainly a number of questions about, about South America. But before we get to that, you mentioned set and setting.

Dr. Andrew Weil 22:47 Mm-hmm.

Tim Ferriss 22:47 Uh, for people who don't know what that means, and I think you, you, you described it in brief.

Dr. Andrew Weil 22:52 Sure.

Tim Ferriss 22:52 Could, can you explain what that means?

Dr. Andrew Weil 22:53 Yeah.

Tim Ferriss 22:53 And can you also explain how you first came across that phrase? Uh, because you, y-you were, you were at Harvard at a very interesting time.

Dr. Andrew Weil 23:01 Yeah. [laughs] Well, Timothy Leary was there and Richard Alpert, and, uh, I, o- one of my other mentors besides, uh, Schultes was a Freudian psychoanalyst named Norman Zinberg. We became very close friends. He was a colleague of mine in the marijuana research. Uh, we got high together. You know, he was older than me. He was, but it was a great connection. And he was one of... I think Leary was one of the first people I heard use the phrase set and setting, and Zinberg wrote about this a lot in his academic writing. So set is a psychologist term for all of the expectational factors that a person brings to an experience. Um, and so w-when you, you know, the effects of drugs are not just due to the drug. I mean, one factor is the nature of the drug, the dose, but then there is what a person expects to happen when he takes that, he or she takes that dose. And then there is the setting, which is the environment, the physical and social environment in which the drug is taken. And my experience has been is that the combined effects of set and setting can actually reverse the pharmacological effect of drugs, that you can give a, a stimulant to a person in conditions of set and setting that cause the person to fall asleep, and you can give a sedative drug to somebody under conditions of set and setting that cause a person to become alert and stimulated. And this doesn't just apply to marijuana and drugs, I think this has an awful lot to do with medicine and healing as well. I think that the way we present treatments to people and their effects also are very dependent on expectation and environment, and it's the expectation both of the, the giver of the treatment or the drug and the person who takes it. In the early days of LSD research, this is, you know, back in the, in the late '50s, early '60s, there was very good research being done with it in terminal cancer patients, for example, showing that, uh, people near the end of life, if they had a structured LSD session, um, and then follow-up with a skilled person, had much less pain, required, uh, far fewer opioids, had much more productive interactions with family and friends, and much easier deaths. People got excited about that research, and then other people who didn't understand that set- setting-drug interaction and thought the magic was just in the LSD tried to reproduce that by giving LSD to people without paying attention to set and setting, and they didn't get the same results, and that's one of the reasons I think people backed off from, from doing research with it.

Tim Ferriss 25:36 Mm-hmm.

Tim Ferriss 25:37 How would you, how would you suggest people these days think about designing studies for researching these compounds? Because a- as you are certainly extremely aware, there are some incredible challenges with studying ... Let's just take, uh, whether we wanna call them psychedelics or hallucinogens as an example in terms of trying to placebo control, and some people will use niacin or some type-

Dr. Andrew Weil 26:02 Right

Tim Ferriss 26:02 ... of lower dose as an active placebo. Uh, there was a great piece in The New York Times, uh, just in the last few weeks called What If the Placebo Effect Isn't a Trick-

Dr. Andrew Weil 26:10 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 26:10 ... uh, looking at the biochemical basis. And it just gets, the further down that rabbit hole you go, the more you realize how incredibly challenging it is to design a study that somehow isolates, if that's even the objective, the, the effects, particularly when you have diff-

Dr. Andrew Weil 26:29 I don't know that that's worth doing, Tim.

Tim Ferriss 26:31 Yes.

Dr. Andrew Weil 26:31 You know? I think really what we're, what we're going for is how do you maximally i- increase the chance of producing a positive experience. You know, I'm fascinated with the potential of these drugs in, in, for healing, in medicine, not just psychological problems, but, you know, real r- things like autoimmune diseases, cancer. I think there's a tremendous potential for these psychedelics especially, um, to g- to sh- give people the experience that they can change whatever's going on in their body. I'll give you one example that I ... I'll give you a couple that I've written about. Um, in, when I was about 28, right before I left for South America, I'd started, was starting to practice yoga, and I, I had had problems with some poses. The one I had the most difficulty with is the plow where you lie on your back and try to touch your toes to the ground behind your head. I got so I could get my toes about a foot from the ground, and I couldn't go any further. I had excruciating pain in my neck. So I ch- I was about to give up. I thought I was just too old to be doing this at 28.

Tim Ferriss 27:33 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 27:33 And one day [laughs] I, uh ... It was a spring day. I was living in Virginia. I took LSD with some friends outdoors. I, it was fabulous. It was in a fabulous state. My body felt totally elastic, and I thought, "Gee, while I'm feeling this way, I ought to try to do that." So I lay on the ground, brought my toes down, and I thought I had about a foot to go, and they touched the ground, and I didn't have any pain, and I kept doing it over and over. I thought, "This is fantastic." The next day I tried to do it. I could get my toes about a foot from the ground, and there was excruciating pain [laughs] in my neck. But, uh, it was now different because I had seen it was possible. If I had not had that experience, I don't think I would've been motivated to continue to practice. But knowing that, I kept at it, and in a few weeks I was able to do it. To me, that's a, a, a model of what these drugs can do. They can show you possibilities that you wouldn't have believed, but then it's up to you to figure out how to have that more of the time.

Tim Ferriss 28:25 That's, uh ... I l- I love that example because it's, it's parallel with many experiences people would tend to put into the box of psychological or emotional in the sense that you have someone like Sam Harris, a very smart guy-

Dr. Andrew Weil 28:41 Right

Tim Ferriss 28:41 ... who-

Dr. Andrew Weil 28:42 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 28:42 ... came to meditation through seeing what was possible via-

Dr. Andrew Weil 28:46 Right

Tim Ferriss 28:46 ... certain psychedelic experiences. Uh, I came across your name very unexpectedly at a, the, at the home of a friend's parents.

Dr. Andrew Weil 28:57 Mm-hmm.

Tim Ferriss 28:57 Uh, and I was browsing their bookshelf, and I came across a book with the very appealing title, to me at least, of Wizard of the Upper Amazon.

Dr. Andrew Weil 29:05 Ah.

Tim Ferriss 29:06 And I, I was astonished I hadn't come across this book before. And you wrote, I th- w- I don't recall if it was the forward or the introduction to that book.

Dr. Andrew Weil 29:14 I wrote ... Yep, yep.

Tim Ferriss 29:16 And, uh, I, I, I became really engrossed in this, which was a, a bit of a problem because I was supposed to be at a party being social. Uh, but I ended up-

Dr. Andrew Weil 29:25 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 29:25 ... in the guest bedroom reading part of this book.

Tim Ferriss 29:28 Can you explain what drew you to South America? Why did you go? How long were you there? What did you do when you were there?

Dr. Andrew Weil 29:36 Well, Schultes sent me there. You know, as I said, he had really lived there. He lived in the Amazon continuously from 1939 to 1953, and he'd had, he had great connections, especially in Colombia. So he wanted me to go down there, and I was interested in studying coca leaves especially, but a whole range of plants. So, um-

Tim Ferriss 29:54 Why were you interested in coca specifically?

Dr. Andrew Weil 29:56 Because he w- he got me interested, and he said he had chewed it every day during the time he was in the Amazon, and he recommended I go down there. I just liked the name, and it seemed like something interesting.

Tim Ferriss 30:05 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 30:06 This was before cocaine was around in, in, up here. So, um, I wrote The Natural Mind, uh, sent it off to the publisher, and I got a fantastic fellowship from a group called the Institute of Current World Affairs, um, that sent people far and wide, and all you had to do was write a monthly newsletter for them.

Tim Ferriss 30:27 Oh.

Dr. Andrew Weil 30:27 Most, most people did this on political subjects, and I had proposed to them writing about altered states of consciousness and psychoactive drugs and things like that, and they'd never done anything like that. And so I got this great fellowship that paid all my expenses. I had that for three and a half years. So I first went to Mexico, uh, lived there for three months to learn Spanish, which I did, uh, just by living with people and having to speak Spanish. And then I drove m- my Land Rover all the way to Colombia. Um, and [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 30:59 [laughs] That's an exciting trip for people.

Dr. Andrew Weil 31:01 It was an exciting trip.

Tim Ferriss 31:02 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 31:03 Um, took a while. Anyway, and then, um, I spent about three and a half years in South America, mostly in Colombia, which I... A country I love, but also Ecuador, Peru, some in Brazil. Um, I saw a lot of interesting things. I learned a lot about plant medicine. I spent time with shamans, some of whom, which were, who were a very mixed bag. I mean, there were drunks who just wanted to be paid for giving people ayahuasca. You know, I saw a few real genuine healers. Um, I, I saw a lot of interesting alternative medical stuff. Um, anyway, it was, it was a, a, a, a, a very interesting period of time in my life, and, uh, I still retain that connection. I look forward to going back and spending more time in Colombia. So I learned a lot of stuff. But interestingly, I had been most interested in, in finding healers. And the... When I... At the end of that time, my car... I came back to the US. I was just gonna be here briefly and go back down to Mexico. And, um, the Land Rover agency that overhauled the car in Laguna Beach forgot to pack one of the wheels with grease, and I drove through Tucson. I was just gonna get supplies, and the wheel bearing shattered, and, uh, took six weeks to get a replacement. It was February of a very warm, wet winter. The desert was in full bloom. I met people I liked, and I never left, and here I am 45 years later, still living

Dr. Andrew Weil 32:24 in Tucson. It turned out that the most fascinating healer, the person I had most to learn from, was in Tucson and had been here all the time, b- before I had gone down to South America. I mean, there's something perfect about that too.

Tim Ferriss 32:38 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 32:38 That, you know, going all this wandering, and then right under your feet is what you're looking for. It was an old osteopathic physician named Robert Fulford, who was a master of cranial therapy, and the best healer I've ever seen. I mean, he just put his hands on you, and remarkable things happened. And he really made me aware of the healing power of nature. You know, he used to... Uh, he... It felt so good to be worked on by him. A- and people would say, "When should I come back?" And he'd say, "You don't need to come back. You're fixed." And he would say, you know, "All you have to do is make these little adjustments and let old Mother Nature do her work." He charged $35 for a visit, used no equipment. It was, uh, very inspirational to spend time with him.

Tim Ferriss 33:16 Did he have anything in common with the, a- a- as you mentioned, few genuine healers you came across in your travels in South America? Were there, were there any commonalities?

Dr. Andrew Weil 33:27 You know, I think, uh, m- m- Fulford used a modality, cranial therapy, which I think is terrific. I'm, I'm a big fan of osteopathic manipulation. It's wonderful, and un- it's unfortunately, a very small percentage of osteopaths do that anymore, and fewer do re- really good cranial therapy. I think Fulford was a healer, and if he'd been working in some other means, he would be as effective. So I think I've met people who are able to catalyze that in other people, maybe just by their own presence, by their own energy, people who are whole and healed themself. That, by the way, goes back to your question about structuring, uh, research with psychedelics. I think the key thing is that the person running the show, who's giving the drugs, him- himself or herself has to be fully experienced. I mean, they have to be a, a shaman. This is what shamans are trained to do. Uh, and you can't just have research hacks trying to give these drugs in clinical settings and expecting to get, you know, wonderful results.

Tim Ferriss 34:29 Yeah.

Tim Ferriss 34:30 Yeah. It's... E- even, even within the clinical setting, of course, there's a huge, uh, I mean, the, the enormous range of experience, right? So you could have someone coming in fresh off the boat, so to speak.

Dr. Andrew Weil 34:41 Yep.

Tim Ferriss 34:41 Or you could have someone like Mary Cosimano at, uh, Johns Hopkins, who's incredible and has-

Dr. Andrew Weil 34:47 Yep

Tim Ferriss 34:47 ... uh, uh, just a, a library of vast experience. Uh, you mentioned Schultes, a name I'm very fond of, and, uh, he, he put out a book, I believe it was maybe co-authored or just, uh, featured an introduction f- with Albert Hofmann called Plants of the Gods.

Dr. Andrew Weil 35:06 Yep.

Tim Ferriss 35:07 Which is a fantastic book. You put out a book, uh, that, as I understand it, had, uh, [laughs] I'm thinking of a senator in particular.

Dr. Andrew Weil 35:16 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 35:18 Uh, mixed, mixed responses-

Dr. Andrew Weil 35:20 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 35:20 ... that I'd love for you to talk about a little bit, called Chocolate to Morphine.

Dr. Andrew Weil 35:24 Choc-

Tim Ferriss 35:24 Subtitle, Understanding Mind Active Drugs. Why did, why did you write this book?

Dr. Andrew Weil 35:28 Before, before I-

Tim Ferriss 35:28 Oh, yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 35:28 Before I do that, let me ask you, did you ever see another book that Schultes put out, which is a real collector's item? You remember the Little Golden Guides? Uh-

Tim Ferriss 35:35 Yes, I do

Dr. Andrew Weil 35:35 ... the ones... Well, he did a Little Golden Guide of hallucinogenic plants.

Tim Ferriss 35:39 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 35:39 If you can find a copy of it, it's amazing. I mean, it, it's every hallucinogenic plant, it... done in that same style of minerals and birds and-

Tim Ferriss 35:47 Oof

Dr. Andrew Weil 35:47 ... and plants, and it was on sale in museums and stuff like that. So see if you can find a copy of it.

Tim Ferriss 35:51 Wow. I'll have to do that before I publish this podcast. [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 35:54 [laughs] Anyway, I wrote a book, um, with a co-author, Winifred Rosen, uh, called From Chocolate to Morphine, about mind-altering drugs. Um, I think it's an excellent book. It's still in print. It's much loved. Uh, many parents have given it to their kids. Many kids have given it to their parents. It came out in 1983, just when the war on drugs started, um, uh, which was precipitated by the death of a basketball player, Len Bias. Uh, and that started the Reagans and a whole crusade. So that book caused a lot of controversy because it did not say no. It's, it said, "If you're g- we're not gonna tell you whether you should use drugs or not, but if you are, this is what you should know about them, and these are the, the precautions that you might take." And it went through all drugs, the legal ones, nicotine, all the forms of caffeine, um, you know, all the psychedelic stimulants, downers, so forth. Uh, so a senator, Republican senator from Florida, Paula Hawkins, who was a crony of Nancy Reagan's, made it a campaign to get the book banned, and she stood up on the floor of the Senate waving the book around. It was on national news, which got more publicity than the publisher got for it. And, uh, there then followed a campaign to ban that book from libraries, and there was a personal campaign to try to keep me from speaking in places that was organized by the White House. Very interesting times. Uh, anyway, I'm still here. The book is still in print and very popular, and, you know, I recommend it. It's great.

Tim Ferriss 37:19 [laughs] What... Were, were, were there any, uh, particular... Actually, let me, let me take,

Tim Ferriss 37:26 uh, take a step back. For people who are listening to that experience and looking back at some of the blowback that was experienced in the, let's just call it the, the Leary era-

Dr. Andrew Weil 37:39 Mm-hmm

Tim Ferriss 37:39 ... and wondering if there are things that can be done to minimize the likelihood of, uh, or t- or just mitigate excessive blowback to current research and attempts to, uh, reclassify things like MDMA, psilocybin, and so on for very legitimate medical applications, do, do you have any thoughts on kind of best practices for people who are very enthusiastic? Um, I'm just, uh, you've, you've, you've been in this world for so much longer than most. I, I don't know if you have any, any particular thoughts on how to not unnecessarily jeopardize things, I guess is, uh-

Dr. Andrew Weil 38:21 Okay. First, first of all, don't be angry because I, I see many people out there who talk about subjects and get tremendous blowback and think that people are reacting to the content of what they're saying, and it's not. It's the tone of what they're saying.

Tim Ferriss 38:37 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 38:37 Uh, I've gotten away with saying the most outrageous things because I'm not angry, and people listen, and we can have actual dialogue. Secondly, I think it's very important to suggest possibilities for uses of these agents for which we don't have f- that, that address problems for which we don't have solutions. For example, the opioid crisis is a fantastic opportunity at the moment, both for integrative medicine in general and for cannabis medicine. Uh, you know, uh, doctors working in states where, um, cannabis is legal say that it has tremendously improved the lives of patients who are dependent on opioids and im- and tremendously improved their lives as practitioners who are faced with how to deal with chronic pain management. So that's o- one area that I think is very important. So the demonstration that, uh, psilocybin, for example, is, can be used with obsessive compulsive disorder, that MDMA produces these tremendous results with post-traumatic stress disorder, you know, this is all helping greatly to legitimize the uses of these.

Tim Ferriss 39:42 Mm-hmm. And, uh,

Tim Ferriss 39:46 let's talk about, uh, bec- this is something, uh, that, uh, we could, we could talk about for hours and days and weeks probably, but just for, for the sake of, of definition, could you define for people, uh, w- w- uh, integrative medicine, the, the combination of these two?

Dr. Andrew Weil 40:06 Sure. Uh, first of all, I think this is medicine of the future, and the term integrative medicine is now totally accepted in academic discourse. There are textbooks of integrative medicine. You know, all medical journals refer to it. So, uh, the short answer is it's the intelligent combination of conventional medicine and natural and preventive medicine and, uh, useful alternative therapies. The longer answer is that it's a s- a system that emphasizes the natural healing power of the organism, um, that looks at people not just as physical bodies, but also as, uh, mental, emotional beings, spiritual entities, community members. That's sometimes called whole person medicine. Uh, that places a great deal of emphasis on lifestyle and all of the lifestyle factors that influence health and illness, uh, that really values the practitioner-patient relationship and makes use of all available therapies that show reasonable evidence of efficacy and aren't gonna cause harm. And we often butt heads against the evidence-based medicine people who say we're trying to advocate unscientific or anti-scientific ideas and practices. You know, my feeling has always been, uh, uh, that, um, a good way to use evidence, a good rule to follow is that the greater the potential of a treatment to cause harm, the stricter the standards of evidence it should be held to for efficacy. Uh, if we had followed that principle in standard medicine, we'd save ourselves a lot of trouble. Uh, I often teach patient... commonly teach patients breathing techniques. There hasn't been a lot of research on the health effects of breathing because nobody takes it seriously. It doesn't involve a drug or a device. But the chance of, of these breathing techniques causing harm is so negligible that I'm not bothered by recommending in the absence of a great deal of evidence for them. Anyway, integrative medicine is the future. Uh, I founded and direct a center of excellence at the University of Arizona College of Medicine, the Center for Integrative Medicine. We're the world leader in educating physicians in this new system, so we give, um, two-year, thousand-hour fellowships for MDs and DOs that, uh, teach nutrition, mind-body interactions, uh, herbal medicine, including the uses of cannabis and psychedelics, um, the strengths and weaknesses of alternative medical systems, uh, s- spirituality in medicine. You know, all these things that are left out of conventional training. And we've now graduated about sixteen hundred physicians from that, uh, intensive fellowship. They're in practice all over the country and in many other countries. We have, uh, our curriculum in eighty residencies throughout the country. We teach medical students. Uh, we're about to open an integrative primary care clinic in Tucson, so we're really on a roll. And as I say, um, I think this is the future because the great promise of integrative medicine is that it can lower healthcare costs while m- maintaining or, I think, improving health outcomes, and I think it's the only way out of this, uh, mess that we have with healthcare in this country.

Tim Ferriss 43:07 So there's a lot to dig into here.

Dr. Andrew Weil 43:08 Yeah.

Tim Ferriss 43:08 And, uh, I, I'm, I'm looking forward to it. So you have, just for people who may have missed this earlier, uh, but they, they must have been smoking something of their own if they missed it earlier. You do have experience with and familiarity with double-blind placebo-controlled studies, and, uh, there... I don't, I don't think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you would argue that there is no place for that, uh, and, and, and that it, it has a place. It is a source of information. There, there-

Dr. Andrew Weil 43:40 It's one kind of information.

Tim Ferriss 43:41 Right.

Dr. Andrew Weil 43:42 Uh, and it has its own limitations. I think there are other kinds of information that are valid. For example, the information that comes from your own experience, and, uh, I like to point out to people that in all languages derived from Latin, unfortunately not English, the word for experience and the word for experiment are the same. In Spanish, experimentar means both to experience and to experiment. So your own experience is a form of experimentation that produces useful information. You have to check it against other kinds of information. With double-blind studies, you know, this is held out as the gold standard, and many people think this is the only kind of information we should pay attention to. But here's an interesting thing. You can try this yourself, and it's an assignment that I give to medical students and doctors. Go into a medical library and pull out any medical journal that reports results of placebo-controlled double-blind testing. Turn to the... You know, pick an article, turn to the back of the article where there's a summary that summarizing the ta- a table summarizing the results. In the placebo group, there will always be one or two or a small number of subjects who show all of the changes produced in the experimental group who got the, the drug. That is fascinating. I mean, that means that any change that we can produce in the human organism by giving a pharmacological agent can be exactly mimicked in at least some people some of the time purely by a mind-mediated mechanism. The placebo response, if you want. Anyway, we should be trying to take advantage of that, find out how to make it happen more of the time. Uh, also, I would just say that there are a great many worthless and dangerous drugs on the market at the moment, and many of them have a lot of placebo-controlled randomized trials behind them, you know, supporting their use. So things can be structured in ways to produce results that people want.

Tim Ferriss 45:38 So, so I, I wanna spend some time on this because I find myself, and I think you probably, uh, certainly, not probably, have found yourself kind of straddling what at times people perceive to be mutually exclusive worlds. So I have, on one hand, a lot of interaction with, uh, you name it, right? Clinical psychologists-

Dr. Andrew Weil 46:00 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 46:00 ... and different researchers at UCSF, at Johns Hopkins, at, at, uh, many different institutions where I'm funding or helping to fund the, the types of studies, uh, that we're talking about. And then on the other hand, uh, I experiment with a lot of what people would consider esoteric and probably just outright crazy stuff.

Dr. Andrew Weil 46:24 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 46:25 Um, some of it below the border, not all of it below the border. And, uh, I, I would love to hear, uh, since you've spoken, you've spoken, uh, I think quite, quite a bit about some of the limitations of the, the types of studies we're talking about, among others we haven't even talked about, but it, the, the, that these are not necessarily the first place to go if you're looking to generate hypotheses that are innovative for testing in the first place. But if, if we were to flip the coin and look at the other side, uh, because you mentioned tone earlier and how a lot can be dismissed if you are angry, and you, you... it's, it's not a response to the content, but it's, it's a response to the tone. Where do people in the integrative medicine field or in the complementary or alternative, uh, treatment realms make mistakes? Like, uh, where-- What are some of the ways in which they think they have all the answers or, uh, alienate themselves from people who might actually be open with a different delivery to some of what they're experimenting with?

Dr. Andrew Weil 47:30 Well, with the, the people that I come in contact with who come through our training programs, I always emphasize this not being angry and to have some, uh, published data to support things that you're doing with patients so that if somebody asks, you know, "Why are you giving this treatment?" you can cite something. Um, so I, I think to me that's most important. Uh, I, I don't see many people today who... I mean, the common mistake is just to antagonize colleagues or to, um, reject conventional medicine out of hand. I, I, you know, a primary... I, I don't like the term alternative medicine. It suggests that you're trying to replace conventional medicine, and that's not my goal. I, I wanna make conventional medicine better. Uh, a- and, and, you know, knowing when and when not to use that system is extremely important. Uh, I, I said earlier, drawing on your own experience for hypotheses. Um, let me give you two personal experiences of mine that suggest, uh, possibilities that I would love to see tested in research settings. Um, at this-- about that same time that I had that experience with yoga and LSD, uh, on another occasion, I took LSD also in a wonderful outdoor setting, feeling great. I had a, a lifelong allergy to cats. Uh, this is again when I was 28. If a cat, uh, came near me, my eyes would itch, and I, my nose would run, and if a cat licked me, I'd get hives where it licked me. So I always, you know, tended to avoid them. So on this day, when I was high on LSD, feeling great, a cat came up and jumped in my lap, and I had a moment like, you know- Trying myself against it. And then I thought, "This is silly." Uh, you know, I'm, I'm just gonna drop this, and I began petting the cat and enjoying it. I had no allergic reaction, and I never had one since. So instant disappearance of allergies. All right, so how about you offer allergy treatment centers where people come in, and on the first visit they take a full dose of the substance, and then over, say, 10 visits, you reduce the dose until at the end they're taking nothing, and they've learned to unlearn the allergy. Um, also around the same time, another dramatic physical change in me. Uh, I grew up, I was told I had very fair skin. I could never get tan. And, uh, we used to go down to the Jersey Shore in the summer and beaches. I, I can't tell you how many times, you know, uh, sheets of skin peeling off, you know, horrible, and then I'd never, you know, never get tan. So that's-- I just accepted that. So also around the same time when I was doing all this experimentation, and I think this is again with LSD, outdoors running around naked in the sun, and I was lying down looking at the sun, and I thought, "This is silly." I mean, uh, the sun is not my en-enemy. I got tanned the next day, and I have ever since. Now, these kinds of changes I have not seen much written about. And to me, that's, that's the stuff I would love to see tested. I'd love to see us figure out, you know, these potentials and how to allow more people to experience them. And this is why I say that when you're dealing with people with chronic illness, whether it's chronic pain or autoimmunity, um, where they don't n- see a possibility of changing it, you can, I think, arrange conditions of set and setting, uh, with the right agent in which you can show people that it's possible to experience your body in a different way.

Tim Ferriss 50:50 Do you, do you recall how many roughly micrograms you were consuming with the cat allergy experience?

Dr. Andrew Weil 50:58 Um, my guess is it was some-somewhere around, uh, you know, maybe 200, something like that.

Tim Ferriss 51:03 Got it. And how would you, if you had to, how would you attempt to explain that? Like, what-- Do you, do you have a hypothetical mechanism or, or-

Dr. Andrew Weil 51:14 The allergy thing is easier to explain than the, than the-

Tim Ferriss 51:16 Than the tanning

Dr. Andrew Weil 51:17 ... tanning reaction. Uh, because there's obviously a, a mind-body component of allergy. You can show, uh, if a person has an allergy to roses, you can show them a plastic rose, and they'll have al-allergic symptoms, uh, for example. Um, uh, I think many people with allergies can see that, um, um, changing emotional states really affect the allergic expression. So that to me is more understandable. Although the fact that it was, was a permanent change I find very interesting. With tanning, I mean, that's a little more complex, the physiology of that. Um, so I, I haven't thought about that. I'm, I'm sure there is a, a physi- uh, you know, a ph-physiological mechanism underlying it, but it again suggests that many aspects of, um, our reaction to the environment are modifiable by changing our internal state.

Tim Ferriss 52:12 Mm-hmm.

Tim Ferriss 52:13 S-- And, and you mentioned breath. I wanna come back to breathing since that seems to also tie into this. A-as you mentioned, and I think you've also discussed publicly having this, this sliding scale of, uh, [lips smack] evidence in, in the sense that the, the, the more something has the potential and a demonstrated potential for harm, the greater the burden of proof should be, uh, and, um, you know, the hormone replacement therapy. And so, I mean, there are many examples that come to mind that, uh, seem to be a great idea at the time, uh, with certain populations which demonstrably could have been predicted to have known dangers. Uh-

Dr. Andrew Weil 52:53 Yep

Tim Ferriss 52:53 ... the-- In the case of breathing, right, compared to benzos and all these other drugs that are available, uh, what, uh-- Is there a sample breathing technique you could describe for people who are looking-

Dr. Andrew Weil 53:06 Yes

Tim Ferriss 53:06 ... to reduce anxiety?

Dr. Andrew Weil 53:08 Uh, there's a, a breath that I teach, which I learned from Dr. Fulford, that I call the four-seven-eight breath, and if people will just Google my name and four-seven-eight breath, you'll get demonstrations of me doing it. It's all over the place these days. But, uh, basically, it's, it-it's a yoga technique. Uh, you let all the air out through your mouth, and you breathe in quietly through your nose to a count of four, hold your breath for a count of seven, blow air out your mouth forcibly to a count of eight, and you repeat that for four breath cycles. Uh, you gotta do it at least twice a day. It's a practice, and by doing this, you change the tone of the autonomic nervous system. You decrease sympathetic tone, increase parasympathetic tone, the relaxation response, that after practicing this for, you know, several weeks, months, it becomes an amazing tool for, um, all sorts of things. One is, is controlling anxiety, lowering blood pressure, heart rate, improving digestion, and so forth. And, uh, breath is really, it's the key, uh, to controlling involuntary functions. Um, and the, uh, breath is-- Breathing is the only thing you can do completely consciously or completely unconsciously. Uh, the theory is that by using your voluntary system to impose rhythms on the breath, gradually those are induced in the involuntary nervous system, which you can't get at directly. So I've seen tremendous results of people doing this four-seven-eight, uh, breath practice. Um, just amazing things, stopping atrial fibrillation, um, having cold hands become warm, uh, chronic digestive problems disappearing. But for anxiety, it is far and away the best method I've ever found. It makes, uh, benzodiazepines look very pathetic by comparison, and I've seen even the most extreme cases of panic disorder respond, uh, to this breathing technique once people practiced it enough.

Tim Ferriss 55:02 You, you have a history of, uh, spotting, uh, or, uh, and/or popularizing ... concepts, terms, uh, even fields of, of, of study lo- long before they hit the mainstream. If, if n- so, so right now we're, we're edging into some territory that, that might lead into this. For instance, uh, and the, and the question's gonna be, what, what, what current accepted concepts or practices do you think are gonna be obsolete in the near future or significantly revised, right? Because we have m- we have mi- this, like, Cartesian mind-body separation, which-

Dr. Andrew Weil 55:39 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 55:39 ... to, to me is hilarious also because it's, it tends to overlap almost perfectly with people who have a, um, sort of, um, hyper materialist view of brain, brain equals mind. Uh, but so just very hard to reconcile since it's an organ. But the, uh, the, uh, the, the reason this came to mind for me is you mentioned autonomous nervous system, right? And the-

Dr. Andrew Weil 56:00 Mm-hmm

Tim Ferriss 56:00 ... these are things that I, I suppose most would assume you do not have any conscious control over. And yet, uh, I've spent time f- as, as an example, and no, I haven't seen this studied in a, a clinical setting 'cause who the hell would actually do it [laughs] and, uh, study it, and who would wanna put their career on hold or for two to three years to do it? But there is a, uh, a, a professor formerly from Stanford Medical School, life- lifelong meditator, uses neurofeedback very consistently, and he can do some very strange things. I've seen him do this multiple times, where you can pick one of his eyes and he can hyper dilate [laughs] his pupil in the eye that you choose. You can watch-

Dr. Andrew Weil 56:43 Ah

Tim Ferriss 56:43 ... this happen. It is one of the strangest things, uh, I've seen. Um, so that, that's a long-winded way of asking a question, but w- what are, what are certain concepts or beliefs held to be true or, uh, things that are held in strong conviction now in medicine or, or tangentially related to it that you think are going to be significantly revised?

Dr. Andrew Weil 57:06 Well, first let me tell you two quick stories, uh-

Tim Ferriss 57:08 Please

Dr. Andrew Weil 57:09 ... relevant to this. I grew up in, uh, Philadelphia, late 1940s, 1950s. All shoe stores had fluoroscopes in them. Uh, these were big consoles, and to check the fit of shoes. So you went in as a kid, the salesman got you shoes, and then you would go to this fluoroscope, stick your feet under it, and there was a, a viewing thing you could look into, and you'd see the bones of your feet, this big glowing green screen. And the shoe salesman would point out to your parents how well the shoes fit. And as a kid, your job was to distract the shoe salesman and your parents so you could spend as much time under there as possible. I mean, unbelievable fluoroscopes in shoe stores. What were they thinking? Going back a little earlier, I, when I was at Harvard Medical School, I found this old attic of medical curiosities, and one item in there, this was from about the turn of the, uh, you know, early 1900s, was a belt with two pouches that held radium ore that was supposed to be worn around the waist. The pouches fit o-

Tim Ferriss 58:06 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:07 ... pouches fit over the kidneys to deliver healthful radiation to your kidneys for several hours a day.

Tim Ferriss 58:12 Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:12 Now, whenever I see things like that, I wonder, what are we doing now-

Tim Ferriss 58:15 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:16 ... that we're gonna look back at-

Tim Ferriss 58:17 Right

Dr. Andrew Weil 58:17 ... 50 years from now and not believe that we did? I'll tell you, one area is dentistry. I, I think the whole, the whole idea of drilling cavities and filling them with foreign materials, I think that's... We will not believe that we were doing that. Uh, I really think that chemotherapy and radiation will be obsolete as cancer treatments, probably in not too distant future. Uh, and you know, the problem with those is they just don't distinguish well enough between, uh, malignant cells and normal cells, unless you're dealing with a cancer that has a very rapid, uh, cell division rate, which, you know, most of them don't. So, uh, I think that'll be replaced by things like gene therapy and, uh, immunotherapy, anti-angiogenesis therapy, so forth. Um, I think the whole field of regenerative medicine is right on the horizon. Uh, this recent research that was done in, uh, Japan of being able to take cells from skin and, uh, get them to reverse to an embryonic state where they can differentiate into any line. I mean, there's a-- we're really close to being able to regenerate organs, spinal cord injuries, damaged hearts. I think that's all on the horizon and will replace a lot of the things that we have now. Um, I think a lot of the diseases that we consider incurable, that's just, you know, a concept that we have, and, and once you see it's possible, then it's possible. And if it's possible in one individual, why shouldn't it be possible for everyone?

Tim Ferriss 59:42 The, uh... You've talked about the, uh, certainly, uh, I think it was through a quote, um, maybe it was Ful- uh, was it Fulford? Am I getting that right? The-

Dr. Andrew Weil 59:53 Fulford, yeah

Tim Ferriss 59:54 ... Fulford. But related to the body healing itself, right? And, um, the, for people who are interested, I just wanted to mention also, in the meantime, as it relates to cancer, there's some very interesting work being done looking at the impact of fasting-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:00:12 Mm-hmm

Tim Ferriss 1:00:12 ... when com- uh, when combined, typically pre-treatment, with different types of, uh, chemotherapy and radiation. Um, and from a anecdotal perspective, I can, I can certainly vouch for the-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:00:26 Mm-hmm

Tim Ferriss 1:00:26 ... protective effects f- of nor- related to normal cells of fasting, uh, with a friend who was part of a cohort, this group of people who were going through these very intense treatments for, uh, a later stage cancer that he had. And those who did not fast in his group, they were, there were a few experimenting with fasting, and sure, you could explain this away in a number of different ways, but, uh, the people who did not fast were laid out for days afterwards, basically on the couch, not moving. And he and a few others were going for five, 10-mile training runs the next morning.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:01:00 Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Tim Ferriss 1:01:00 Uh, so really fascinating stuff. Uh, the, the dentistry that you mentioned, uh, you, you talked about some of the potential replacements v- that, uh, that, that, that are certainly being, uh, explored quite a bit now related to cancer. With dentistry, what would you see replacing the current approach to drilling and filling?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:01:18 One possibility is a, a vaccine, uh, that would inoculate you against the bacteria that, uh, cause decay. Um, you know, that's one thing. Um, I think it's an, also a place for regenerative medicine that, uh, possibly being able to stimulate the growth of new teeth. I think that's all within the realm of possibility.

Tim Ferriss 1:01:40 Mm-hmm. And, and there are... This is probably not specifically intended to help people regenerate teeth, but there are services now, which may be outdated shortly, but for people who are curious, where you can, you can take the, [smacks lips] uh, baby teeth-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:01:59 Mm-hmm

Tim Ferriss 1:01:59 ... as they are, I suppose, discarded, I'm not sure what the proper word is-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:03 Yes

Tim Ferriss 1:02:03 ... released from the mouth by your children.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:05 Yeah.

Tim Ferriss 1:02:05 And then, uh, have them immediately shipped for storage so that you can harvest-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:10 Ha

Tim Ferriss 1:02:10 ... the, the pulp, uh, the stem cell pulp later for regenerative uses. Uh, there are-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:17 Oh, great. I didn't know about that.

Tim Ferriss 1:02:18 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:18 That's, that's neat.

Tim Ferriss 1:02:19 It's pretty cool. Yeah, there are services that do that, so you don't necessarily have to drill into your kid's hip or [laughs] whatever it might be.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:25 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:02:25 Which is of course part of the, part of the, uh, [smacks lips] of what makes the, the research in Japan and so on, uh, so exciting, the, the possibility of getting to the kind of embryonic, [smacks lips] uh, starting point wi- without having to use these really invasive procedures. Uh, [smacks lips] what else are you most excited about right now?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:02:46 Well, I, I, I have to say that, um, the mainstreaming of integrative medicine, uh, thrills me. You know, I've been writing and saying the same things about medical education, medicine, health for probably 45 years. And in the early years, nobody paid attention to me, and then I got a larger and larger following in the general public. But none of my medical colleagues took me seriously. Uh, and that didn't change until the early 1990s, and it was then when the, the economics of healthcare began to go south, uh, that institutions began to open to this. Um, and th- one lesson I draw from that is that no amount of ideological argument moves anything. It's only when the pocketbooks of institutions get squeezed enough that they begin to open to change. Um, but the change is quite remarkable. Uh, you know, there's a group called the, uh, Consortium of Academic Health Centers for Integrative Medicine, and now, uh, two-thirds of the medical schools in the US have joined this.

Tim Ferriss 1:03:45 Wow.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:03:45 Uh, and this requires, uh, the dean or chancellor of an institution has to request membership, and the school has to show that they've got activity in, uh, two of the three areas of clinical medicine, research, and teaching. So, uh, it's quite wonderful to watch this happen.

Tim Ferriss 1:04:02 Mm. What, uh... I'm just, I'm, I, uh, there's... I mean, we could talk for hours and hours and hours, and we definitely have to hang out again, and maybe we can go for a hike with our mutual friend. Certainly you've known him long enough.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:04:15 That'd be great. [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:04:15 Paul, Paul Stamets. [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:04:16 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:04:17 Would just be amazing. Uh,

Tim Ferriss 1:04:20 what books have you gifted the most to other people outside of your own books? Are there any books that you've gifted, uh, often to other people?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:04:28 Yes. One is a, um, a translation of Lao Tzu, uh, by a man named Witter Bynner. It's called The Way of Life According to Lao Tzu. That's beautiful translations, and I find those, you know, verses, which was the sole output of this philosopher, to be, you know, remarkably right on. Uh, I, um, I... Another book that I've given out a lot recently is We by Robert Johnson, a Jungian psychoanalyst. It's subtitled The Psychology of Romantic Love. A very short, easily read book about the traps that people get themselves into in romantic relationships.

Tim Ferriss 1:05:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:05:06 Uh, and that's one that I, I like very much. Um, geez, I have a whole bunch out there. [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:05:13 What, what catalyzed or led you to, to gift We?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:05:17 Just because I see so many, uh, my friends who are trapped in, uh, repetitive patterns with other people that are, are very unfulfilling. And I, I, you know, We is all about, um, how we project something onto another person which really is inside us, and that, uh, totally fits with my ideas about, uh, drug highs and healing, that these are all within us, and we sometime need something external on which to project our, uh, our belief in order to experience what we

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:05:49 want to experience.

Tim Ferriss 1:05:50 On, on that note, I, I've, I've heard you talk about the, the drive to experience, um, [sighs] I don't want to use th- that. I won't, I won't-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:01 Other states of consciousness.

Tim Ferriss 1:06:02 Non-ordinary states of consciousness-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:04 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 1:06:04 ... to be in- innate to human beings, right? Uh, and-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:08 No, that was the premise of my first book, The Natural Mind, that we have an, an innate drive to alter consciousness, not necessarily with drugs. There's all sorts of ways of doing it. Uh-

Tim Ferriss 1:06:18 Children, children spinning.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:19 I talk about whirlings, yes.

Tim Ferriss 1:06:20 You mentioned. [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:06:20 Children spinning around and so forth. Um, that also got me in a lot of trouble when that was first f- uh, first published. You know, people didn't want to hear that. But I think this is absolutely the case, and it's in all societies. And I think th- the inability of our society to allow for, [smacks lips] for that drive and to help channel it in good directions is one reason why we have the kind of drug problems we do today. Um, so I think teaching people how to, um, experience these states, how to get them in ways that are, uh, manageable and will hold up for you over time, we should be doing that. And the people who should be teaching that are people who have mastered that themselves, whether, you know, the, the equivalents of shamans, uh, in our society.

Tim Ferriss 1:07:07 When, when you look at periods in your life where you feel like you're in the zone, uh, however you would define that, what are some of the daily or weekly practices that you That you spot, just in terms of the pattern recognition. When you look back at these sweet spots when you've just really been performing and feeling, uh, performing well and feeling good, are, are there any particular daily, weekly practices, morning habits, whatever comes to mind that, that you-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:07:40 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 1:07:41 ... see as consistent?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:07:42 Well, I, I do have a sitting meditation practice, sometimes quite brief, but I do it when I first get up in the morning. Um, and, and I've done that quite regularly for a long time. Part of that is my breathing work. Um, another is, uh, being physically active, and the forms of my physical activity have changed over my lifetime. Uh, in my 20s I ran, then I got signals from my knees that they didn't like that, and I started biking instead. Uh, always did a lot of walking and hiking. And, um, in later life I've really gotten into swimming. I mean, that's my favorite physical activity

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:08:17 at the moment. Uh, I've lived with dogs for most of my adult life, and I can't imagine life without dogs, and that has been a very important part of my, um, emotional well-being, I s- would say. My connection with plants, which we started out talking about, um, brings me a great deal of fulfillment, but growing plants, uh, using them as medicine, cooking. Uh, cooking and food preparation have always been, uh, very grounding for me. I, I've often said and written that for me, cooking is a meditation. Uh, chopping vegetables. Uh, also manifesting. I have a, a concept in my head, something that I wanna prepare. I think, uh, cooking is great training in practical magic. You know, how do you manifest things? How do you take things from inside your head and make them real in physical reality as close to your, uh, imagination as possible? And to me, cooking is a great way of for doing that. Uh, so that's been very important to me, and I love, um, I love turning people on to new experiences, including experiences of food and plants. Um, a, a lot of people over the years have said to me that, uh, uh, reading and reading my books, that I've put into words things that they always knew to be true but hadn't put words, i-i-into words themselves. That makes me very happy. Uh, I, I have many people come up to me who say that, uh, reading my books or taking our training programs has really changed their lives for the better. That makes me very happy. It makes me feel I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing.

Tim Ferriss 1:09:48 Do you, uh, I don't know what your current troop looks like, but do you still have your, uh, I wanna say Rhodesian Ridgebacks?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:09:56 I have two Rhodesian Ridgebacks, a male and a female, who are... This is my third generation of them, and they're stellar. They've also, you know, uh, for me, uh, living with them has really taught me to be good at nonverbal communication. You know, we're really good at reading each other's, uh, needs and wants and intentions. Uh, and, and that's been remarkable training. There's been also some, um, you probably have seen some of this research on, uh, some of the positive interactions with dogs especially. Uh, one is that dogs are the only animal that hold our gaze, and most animals regard looking into the eyes as a threat. And dogs have evolved the ability to hold our gaze, and there's research showing that when a dog holds your gaze, there is oxytocin released both in the dog's brain and the human brain, and the longer the eye connection is, the greater the release of oxytocin, which is the, the bonding hormone.

Tim Ferriss 1:10:50 Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:10:50 Uh, there was also a paper [chuckles] that came out in this past year showing that when you exchange saliva with a dog-

Tim Ferriss 1:10:55 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:10:55 I won't, I won't go into how that happens, but it happens. That this does very good things for your microbiome. Uh-

Tim Ferriss 1:11:01 Oh

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:11:01 ... and, and in particular, it changes it in ways that seem to protect against obesity. [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:11:07 [laughs] I cannot wait to see the products that come out of that comment.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:11:10 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:11:11 [laughs] The dog saliva s- morning swish-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:11:15 Yeah. Right

Tim Ferriss 1:11:15 ... for anti-obesity. Uh,

Tim Ferriss 1:11:17 the, the morning meditation, uh, could, could you elaborate on that just a second in terms of the, the format? Like when you s- what, what does that look like in practice?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:11:25 Okay. I, I first, uh, you know, I, uh, long, long ago, around the time that I was writing The Natural Mind, I became interested in meditation. I began reading about Zen. I met people who practice Zen. So that's what I f- first tried, of sitting down, counting breaths. Uh, then I took some Vipassana training, uh, mindfulness meditation. And so what I do now is a kind of combination of that. I sit down. I first do my, uh, breathing. I, I do some, um, uh, bellows breath, breath of fire, and then I do that four-seven-eight breath for at least eight breath cycles. Uh, and then I try to keep my attention on my breath, on sensations in my body, um, on a, a, you know, whatever's actual s- uh, sensory s- uh, signals in the room around me. Uh, and if I'm aware that my attention is in my thoughts or on images, I just try to bring it back to those things. Um, so that's really all that I do, and, uh, y- you know, a simple sitting. But to me, um, meditation is not about doing it just in a special time of sitting. It's carrying that experience and training into all aspects of your life. So whether it's driving, walking, chopping vegetables, you wanna be e- as much in that state as possible. To me, that's the essence of mindfulness.

Tim Ferriss 1:12:50 Uh, and you mentioned Vipassana. Um, you, you may have, uh, or you may have other recommendations, which I'd love to hear, but, uh, for people who are curious about experimenting with Vipassana in a way that does not involve, uh, a whole, a, a ton of language that perhaps they don't speak natively-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:13:07 Hmm

Tim Ferriss 1:13:07 ... uh, s- we me- or we, using the royal we, I mentioned, uh, Sam Harris earlier. His, his Waking Up app I find-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:13:15 Mm-hmm

Tim Ferriss 1:13:15 ... to be very, very, uh, very good, uh, for this, particularly if people have previously had an allergy [chuckles] to-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:13:22 Uh-huh

Tim Ferriss 1:13:24 How it's, how, how meditation can someh- sometimes be presented. Um, the-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:13:29 I'm a great, I'm a great admirer of his, uh, work, and another one of the books that I have commonly given out to people is The End of Faith.

Tim Ferriss 1:13:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:13:36 You know, it's a very slim little volume. Um, and I, I, I, he's ... The, the combination of being a neuroscientist, uh, you know, somebody who really questions religious dogma and also, uh, accepts the mystery of existence, I think that's a very unusual combination.

Tim Ferriss 1:13:54 It is. That

Tim Ferriss 1:13:55 is very unusual. Uh, the ... Yeah, I was thinking about your cooking resp- uh, remark because I only in the last handful of years discovered cooking in the process of f- of writing my third book, and have often wondered why I find cooking so meditative, as you put it. And, uh, one th- one theory, uh, that I have is that much like why I f- or for sim- uh, it is for similar reasons that I find certain types of sports and physical training meditative-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:14:26 Yes

Tim Ferriss 1:14:26 ... and that is that there are actually some consequences built in. Like, you have to pay attention [laughs] if you're chopping, if you're finely dicing-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:14:33 Exactly, right

Tim Ferriss 1:14:33 ... vegetables. [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:14:34 Yeah, yeah.

Tim Ferriss 1:14:35 Or you have three things-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:14:36 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:14:36 ... uh, at, on different heats, uh, uh, on the, on the stove top. Uh, but-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:14:41 I was, uh, kicked out of the kitchen growing up. My mother said, you know, I should be out playing. But I was always fascinated watching people do it. And, uh, I didn't ... I really got into it when I was in medical school. And I found, you know, I ... In those days, you had to work really long shifts in hospitals, and it, they were ghastly places. And when I came out of them, uh, I, I, I was in such bad mental and emotional states. And I found that imagining something that I could cook for myself and getting the ingredients and then doing it, that this put my head back in a very good place. So from a, a very early time, I discovered, you know, that power of cooking for me. And I've gotten to be a very good home cook, and over the years, uh, many people said, "You ought to open a restaurant." And I never was interested in that because, um, I knew I knew nothing about the restaurant business, and it looked like a very tough business. And then, uh, about 12 years ago, a mutual friend introduced me to a successful restaurateur here in Arizona. Uh, and I proposed to him the concept of a restaurant that would serve delicious food that was also healthy. He, his immediate response was, "Health food doesn't sell." Uh, he tho- I think he thought I was talking tofu and sprouts. Uh-

Tim Ferriss 1:15:52 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:15:53 I eventually asked him and his wife to come out to my place. I cooked dinner for them. They liked the food. But he was very skeptical. And, but his wheels turned, and he said he was willing to give this a try, but he was very doubtful. S- but we got a, he got a piece of real estate in Phoenix, um, at, which was a coffee shop, and we converted it and opened the first True Food Kitchen 11 years ago. Um, it was from the moment it opened an immediate success. Uh, a lot of my recipes, um, you know, my concept based on my anti-inflammatory diet, uh, it's delicious, wonderful-looking food. It also happens to adhere to good nutritional guidelines. And we now have 25 of these around the country. Uh, very successful. We're gonna open eight more this year. Um, I'm, uh, still a minority owner in it and oversee the menu, and that's been great fun. Uh, and watching people eat the kind of food that I eat and loving it is great.

Tim Ferriss 1:16:51 It's, uh, it's ... There's a location here in Austin-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:16:55 Mm-hmm

Tim Ferriss 1:16:55 ... True Food Kitchen, about, uh, a few blocks from where I'm sitting and recording, and I was actually there two nights ago having dinner. Uh, for those people who might be interested, the, the seasonal ingredient salad with chicken added to it. Uh, and, uh, with Dan Engel, who is also a, uh, a previous, uh, guest on the podcast. So-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:17:15 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 1:17:16 ... I'm a, I'm a fan. Uh, why do you think, given the fatality rate, and not just the fatality rate, but, like, the infant mortality rate of restaurants and, uh, new concepts, to what do you attribute it being successful from the get-go? Did you guys do a lot of testing beforehand? Did-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:17:34 No, no we didn't. No, we didn't. Um, I, I think my, my partner, Sam Fox, uh, his tastes and mine couldn't be more different. You know, he likes cheeseburgers and steaks. Uh, and we butted heads over a lot of things. But he knows the restaurant business, so in our compromises, I think we worked out a formula that worked. Uh, one reason for the success is we have something for everyone. Uh, something for meat eaters, vegetarians, vegans, gluten-free people, and we're willing to modify recipes to whatever diners want. Uh, the, the restaurant has created its, its own culture that's very distinctive, and it draws people to work there who live the lifestyle. The servers, the cooks, uh, really all follow the kind of lifestyle that, that I preach, and that's visible when you go into one of these places. Um, uh, the, uh, I, I, I just can't tell you. A lot of people tell me that they, uh, that people eat there four and five times a week. Um, some of our dishes, like the kale salad, have become so popular we created a shortage of organic kale on the West Coast-

Tim Ferriss 1:18:37 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:18:38 ... some years ago. [laughs] And, uh, I've had, you know, kids come, uh, m- parents come up with kids and say their f- kid's favorite dish is the kale salad, and they have to make it for them at home. I mean, who would, who would have ever thought that American kids would be eating kale salad? So I think th- that there's th- this culture that's apparent when you go into the restaurant. We've had really no successful competition. And the food speaks for itself. It's, it's beautiful. It's delicious. Uh, uh, flavors come through, and the fact that it makes you feel good when you leave, I think is, you know, what draws people back.

Tim Ferriss 1:19:11 So, uh, you know, I was just thinking as you mentioned the kale shortage, I was thinking for all the, the hedge fund managers listening to this, they should, they should try to get [laughs] inside information on, on-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:19:21 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:19:22 ... on pending menu additions-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:19:23 Yes. [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:19:24 ... so they can go along whatever, uh, that or this, look at the-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:19:26 Right

Tim Ferriss 1:19:26 ... secondary and tertiary effects of whatever the shortage will be. Uh- Which is a real thing. I remember th- uh, almonds in California. Any case, uh, you me- so, so you mentioned True Food Kitchen. This, this is a good, this is an, this is a good opportunity for me to ask you about, uh, investments. I mean, you, you've thought about investing in many different ways, and I'd like to talk about investments, not of money, but time, energy, and so on. Is, is... Can you think of one of or any of the best or most worthwhile investments you've ever made? The... It could be money. It could be money in the sense that I've had, uh, people on the podcast, like Amelia Boone, who is a, an attorney, but paid for her first, uh, competitor ticket to World's Toughest Mudder. She ended up being a four-time, uh-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:20:15 Mm-hmm

Tim Ferriss 1:20:15 ... world champion, and it really changed her life. So it could be, it could be money, but not in the, in the strict sense of investment into a stock or a, a company, if that makes sense.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:20:25 Well, one of them has to be True Food Kitchen. I was a... I did invest money in it, but I invested a great deal of time, and the reward that I've gotten back has been manyfold. Um, I've created a private foundation, the Weil Foundation, which funds integrative medicine, um, education and research in this country and other countries, and, uh, been able to give away, um, $7 million in the past few years since that was created. Um, that's been very fulfilling to me. Uh, i- in terms of, uh, time investments, I guess, you know, I've invested an awful lot of time in writing, and, uh, that's not the easiest, uh, occupation, as you know. Um, but that has also been incredibly rewarding to me. You know, I... Publishing is a very uncertain business these days, and I was fortunate enough to be in it at a time when, you know, it, it worked and, and to reap the benefits of that, and that's been very satisfying. But that's been a major part of my life.

Tim Ferriss 1:21:24 Mm-hmm. What about on the, uh,

Tim Ferriss 1:21:27 conver- if we look at the, the other end of the spectrum, uh, can you think of any failures or apparent failures that set you up for later success? Do you have, uh, any favorite failures?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:21:39 Let me think about that. Um.

Tim Ferriss 1:21:42 Or just things you viewed as catastrophes or real-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:21:44 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:21:45 ... awful occurrences that turned out to be blessings in disguise.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:21:49 Well, you know, for a, a lot of years, uh, the kind of medicine that I advocated, uh, people thought I was nuts. Uh, and, uh, uh, you know, n- no, uh, as I said, none of my medical colleagues took me seriously. They thought I'd gone off the deep end.

Tim Ferriss 1:22:06 Wow.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:22:06 Um, so, you know, I, I, I knew that I was on the right path, and I've always had great trust in my intuition and my, you know, inner light. And even in periods when I did not get much, um, confirmation of that from the e- outside world, um, I think I developed the ability to just hold true to what I knew, knew to be right and keep following my footsteps.

Tim Ferriss 1:22:32 Wow. Are there, are there any, uh, positions or opinions in the last few years, uh, or, or it could be way back, it doesn't have to be in the last few years, that you've changed substantially, where you've shifted, shifted your position or completely changed your mind?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:22:46 I change my position all the time.

Tim Ferriss 1:22:47 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:22:47 And, uh, you know, I think that's, uh, that's one thing that people respect about my work. I'm quite willing to say that I was wrong about something or to, as new information comes out. You, you, you mentioned, though, I do have a very good ability to spot trends and to, um, m- pick up on things that may take the mainstream culture years to come around to. And for example, um, I was warning people about trans fats probably 15 years before people saw how dangerous they were and there was any attempt to ban them from food. Um, so I'm, I'm just really good at stuff like that.

Tim Ferriss 1:23:23 How did that come about? Do you mind giving us a little bit of background on how-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:23:26 You know, I just, I, I, I, I s- a lot of information comes across my desk, and now that I have, you know, all of these students out there that I've trained, uh, you know, they constantly send me things. I don't have great patience to read whole articles, but I'm very good at, uh, getting the gist of things very quickly and putting together with other information that I know. And, uh, so, uh, uh, you know what? With s- or with the anti-inflammatory diet, I s- I saw this, you know, it must be, again, 15, 18 years ago, but there was this hypothesis out there that chronic low-level inflammation, uh, may be the root cause of many diseases that we had thought were unrelated, like heart disease and Alzheimer's disease and cancer. And, um, I picked up on that, that idea very early, and that led me to develop this anti-inflammatory, yeah, eating plan. There's now a tremendous amount of, uh, validation of that. So all I can tell you is I, I'm very intuitive about that. I pick up on things. I see the connections to other things, and, you know, I'm willing to start, uh, advocating them before the, the evidence is all there, but most of the time, the evidence comes in.

Tim Ferriss 1:24:35 And you've been... There are certain things you've done for a long time, uh, like you mentioned the cooking really beginning in, uh, uh, if I'm remembering correctly, medical school.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:24:43 Yep.

Tim Ferriss 1:24:43 Uh,

Tim Ferriss 1:24:44 i- i- in recent memory, it, uh, could be the last few years, last five years, uh, are there any new beliefs or behaviors or habits that have really improved the quality of your life that come to mind?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:24:58 Well, I'm fascinated by, uh, the, the stuff that's been out there on intermittent fasting. That's something that I've been experimenting with. I think the biochemistry of it is fascinating. I think there are all different ways of doing it. Um-

Tim Ferriss 1:25:10 Mm-hmm

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:25:10 ... I haven't figured out exactly what's right for me, but I'm sure there's something there that's valuable, and I will continue to experiment with that. Um, what else?

Tim Ferriss 1:25:19 Are there any resources or particular people who led you to, to look into that closely?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:25:25 I can't think of one person. I think it's been hearing that from a variety of sources-

Tim Ferriss 1:25:29 Mm-hmm

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:25:30 ... and, and, and, uh, reading the medical literature about it.

Tim Ferriss 1:25:33 Mm-hmm.

Tim Ferriss 1:25:35 So I have a, maybe a strange question to ask you, but I feel, I feel like I, I want to ask nonetheless. It's, it's not a scary question, but it might-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:25:41 Okay. [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:25:41 ... you might, but it might be odd, which is, uh, when is the last time you remember crying tears of joy? And this is a question that was used as an o-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:25:50 Ah

Tim Ferriss 1:25:50 ... op- opener at a group dinner once, and I thought-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:25:53 Huh

Tim Ferriss 1:25:53 ... and I thought it was gonna completely fall flat and could be a catastrophe. Uh, Michael Hebb, I want to give him credit, and it opened the portal to such a incredible conversation among strangers that I, I, I jotted it down. Uh-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:26:07 I, I don't know that I've actually cried tears of joys, but I feel myself welling up-

Tim Ferriss 1:26:13 Mm-hmm

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:26:13 ... uh, in certain circumstances. And I think a, a, a number of times when, um, people have written me or told me in person, um, that something that I wrote or said, uh, had really, um, saved their life literally. Uh, and, uh, you know, that's, I, I just, I have a very strong emotional response to

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:26:37 that.

Tim Ferriss 1:26:37 Is, is there anything, uh, that you, besides looking into inter- intermittent fasting, is there anything in particular that you are working on these days? Do you do anything like New Year's resolutions, or, or do you have any rituals around the new year?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:26:54 No. First of all, I don't believe in the new year. I think it's just an artificial, uh, concept on a calendar. If there is a... You know, I, I was always fascinated by the fact that the Jewish new year is at the time of the autumn equinox, and it's not in the first month of the Jewish calendar. So that's odd that the first, the new year begins not in the first month. And in some ways it's calling attention to the importance of the autumn equinox, and I think that's a very special time. You know, I think the, uh, image, the symbolism that I have there is that if you plant root crops at that time, um, they develop in the dark. They put roots down. You don't see any sign of them, and then in the spring shoots come up, and the result of all that work in the dark, you know, manifests itself. So the idea is that at that time of year, in that equilibrated time of year, that the mental patterns, the, the life patterns that you set, uh, may manifest, you know, when spring comes around. So I, I, I sometimes, at that time of year I think about, you know, what I want to do. But since I'm mostly doing what I want to do, I don't have to change too much. [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:28:01 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:28:02 Well, do, is your, is, is the first, say, 60 minutes or 90 minutes of your day, uh, fairly scripted at this point? Uh, i- if so-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:28:11 Yes

Tim Ferriss 1:28:11 ... I mean, what does it-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:28:12 Yes

Tim Ferriss 1:28:12 ... what does it, what does it look... When do you wake up? What does it look like?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:28:15 You know, I, I wake up pretty consistently at 4:00 AM, although it changes through the... You know, I tend to wake up when it gets light. But my pattern now is I wake up at 4:00, and I usually go to bed at 9:00, so I like to get seven hours of sleep. And I sleep with my dogs, and if I don't wake up at 4:00, the female dog wakes me up exactly at 4:00 by licking my head very vigorously.

Tim Ferriss 1:28:36 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:28:38 Uh, anyway, so I get up, I brush my teeth, and then I sit down and do my meditation, um, however long that takes. And then I go in and, um, I, uh, I usually feed the dogs. Um, I may feed myself. Uh, and then, um, as soon as it gets light, I take the dogs out. There's a, a pretty wild wash near my home and, uh, where they run off leash fairly early in the morning.

Tim Ferriss 1:29:04 What, what, what are your def- default breakfasts, if you do have breakfast?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:29:08 You know, I love Japanese breakfast, uh, and I know you and I are both Japanophiles.

Tim Ferriss 1:29:13 Definitely.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:29:13 I hated breakf- I hated breakfast growing up as a kid. There was nothing I was served that I liked. And I went to Japan when I was 17. [coughs] This was in 1959. Uh, I was there with a student exchange group. I lived with, uh, Japanese families outside of Tokyo and in Kobe, and I suddenly discovered this is what I want to eat for breakfast, you know? That a piece of broiled fish, and miso soup, and steamed rice, and some seaweed, and pickles, and green tea. That just suits me fine. Uh, and, uh, if I can, I have things like that for breakfast.

Tim Ferriss 1:29:48 It's gotta be the best breakfast on the planet. I've tried so many breakfasts, and-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:29:51 That, that's my favorite

Tim Ferriss 1:29:52 ... it's just so good

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:29:53 ... and, you know, just American breakfast make me feel horrible.

Tim Ferriss 1:29:55 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:29:56 And when I'm on the road, that's the meal I have most difficulty with.

Tim Ferriss 1:29:58 Oh.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:29:59 Uh, by the way, let me also tell you another story. Uh, at that, when I was first in Japan, it was, I arrived in, I think it was November 1st of 1959. Was with this family outside of Tokyo, in Urawa City, and there was no language in common. There was, none of them spoke English. I didn't speak Japanese, so there was a lot of gesturing. But on the second night that I was there, the mother of the household, uh, took me next door to her neighbor, who was a practitioner of Chanoyu tea ceremony, and, uh, I experienced a tea ceremony for the first time and was served matcha. And, uh, two things about it fascinated me. One was the color of the powdered tea. I had never seen a more beautiful green powder. And the other was the chasen, this whisk that's made from, you know, one piece of carved bamboo that's just a, a miracle of carving, and something about the shape of that just fascinated me, that was used to whisk the tea into a froth. So, uh, as you can imagine, when I, uh, came back to the States in 1960, uh, you know, nobody knew about Japanese food. Uh, there was w- every city had one Japanese restaurant that was named Ginza or-

Tim Ferriss 1:31:09 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:31:10 ... Sakura, and they had miso soup and clear soup. They had, um, uh, some tempura and, uh, some kind of broiled salmon. I mean, the idea of eating raw fish would n- never be there at all. And if anybody had told me that Americans would be eating sushi the way they are now, I would never have believed it. So anyway, I became a fan of matcha from that time, and that's another example of something that I came across and turned people on to many, many years before it became popular. And, uh, in recent years I, uh, found a, uh, a sourced really good matcha in Japan in, uh, from Uji, which is the town outside of Kyoto where most of the tea growing goes on. Um, and I've been making this available, too. I helped start a company called, uh, Matcha Kari. The website is matcha.com. And, uh, it's just amazing to me to watch matcha suddenly being discovered here, and I've seen it on, you know, there was a recent episode of Madam Secretary where [laughs] her daughter is preparing a bowl of matcha for somebody. I mean, that's amazing. So I was, I think, 40 or 50 years ahead of that one.

Tim Ferriss 1:32:13 And, uh, matcha, for those of you wondering on the spelling, is M-A-T-C-H-A. Matcha.com, that's a hell of a URL. Um-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:32:20 I know, not bad.

Tim Ferriss 1:32:21 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:32:21 And matcha, it literally means powdered tea, and this is the only form of tea in which the whole leaf is consumed. So you're getting all of the, uh, nutrients, phytochemicals there. Um, and it's a labor-intensive process of making it, but it's just, it's a, matcha's a beautiful thing.

Tim Ferriss 1:32:38 It is, it is a, a fantastic tea. I consume matcha regularly. I have some at home. And, um, you can use the whisk if you want to be sacrilegious, but really efficient.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:32:47 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:32:47 You can also use one of those battery-powered [laughs] frothers.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:32:52 I, I like, uh, iced matcha also, especially in warm weather, and I, I just put the matcha in cold water and use one of the, uh, electric whisks to whisk it and then add ice to it. I don't sweeten it, and it's, again, beautiful green and a wonderful drink.

Tim Ferriss 1:33:05 Yeah. Yeah, green is my favorite color, and I... If people were to ask me what shade of green, I used to know the exact Pantone number, which is pretty nerdy.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:33:12 Aha.

Tim Ferriss 1:33:12 But, but it is, it is, it is, w- they're one and the same really. It's the color of maple leaves in July on Eastern Long Island, or when the sunlight hits the backside, or matcha green tea.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:33:25 Matcha. Right.

Tim Ferriss 1:33:26 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:33:26 Great. I like it.

Tim Ferriss 1:33:27 It's, it's so beautiful. Uh, let me ask just a, a few more questions, and then, uh, maybe we'll do a, a round two sometime. But-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:33:34 Okay

Tim Ferriss 1:33:34 ... but, uh, I'd, I'd love to, to break bread in person, uh, in, in the meantime at some point. But, uh, if you could have... Well, actually, no, I'll start with a different one. The, the, I'm gonna ask you the, my, my usual what would you put on a billboard question.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:33:50 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:33:50 Um, but we'll, we'll get to that.

Tim Ferriss 1:33:52 In terms of small purchases, are there any purchases of, say, $100 or less that have positively impacted your life in recent memory? Anything, and it's specific, people always love specifics. But is there any sort of little thing-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:34:07 Yes.

Tim Ferriss 1:34:08 Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:34:08 Well, one of them I'm holding in my hand right now, and my daughter turned me on to these. She's now 28. Uh, computer glasses, which I got on Amazon. Um, I know that they were less than $20. But these are yellow-tinted, uh, glasses that enlarge things slightly. That has totally changed my comfort in sitting in front of a screen.

Tim Ferriss 1:34:30 Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:34:30 You know, it cancels out the blue light, and, uh, it just, that's been a great thing to have in my

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:34:35 life.

Tim Ferriss 1:34:35 Mm-hmm. Perfect. So we're going from the micro to the macro.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:34:39 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:34:39 So we have the, the computer glasses, and then something that probably wouldn't require glasses, which is a gigantic billboard. This is more of a, a metaphorical question.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:34:47 Sure.

Tim Ferriss 1:34:47 But if, if you could get a message out to millions or billions of people, could be a word, could be a sentence, could be a quote, could be anything non-commercial, um, what might you put on-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:34:59 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:34:59 ... such a billboard?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:35:00 I think it's the, you know, it's all the good stuff is inside you. I mean, that was the main point of The Natural Mind is that the highs that you get from drugs are inside you. They're in the nervous system. The drugs acts as r- as a releaser. Healing is a potential inside you. Various treatments or people can activate that or release it, but it's that, you know, it's that everything really is within.

Tim Ferriss 1:35:25 Hmm. Yeah, and the, and, uh, you don't have to, as, as, as... I'm j- not saying this for you, I'm saying this for people listening. You don't have to believe in witchcraft and fairy dust to come to that conclusion. Uh, if you read the, the article that I mentioned, I'll put it in the show notes for everybody as well-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:35:44 Great

Tim Ferriss 1:35:44 ... on the placebo effect, on how the placebo effect varies culturally, on how it's become stronger in the United States.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:35:51 Hmm.

Tim Ferriss 1:35:52 On looking at the outliers in the control groups, these placebo groups, like you mentioned. If you're looking at the tables of studies, it's so exciting to explore, and, um, uh, I am so excited to see, uh, how it is further studied and utilized in medicine because it's, it's-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:36:11 Tim, this is another one that I think I was onto long before, you know, people got into it. I, if you, I don't know whether you've read my book called Health and Healing.

Tim Ferriss 1:36:20 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:36:21 Um, it came out shortly after From Chocolate to Morphine. It was the first book that I wrote on medicine and medical philosophy. There are two chapters on that, i- in that on placebos.

Tim Ferriss 1:36:30 Hmm.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:36:31 And, uh, it, I would if- recommend go back and read them because it's, it's all-

Tim Ferriss 1:36:35 [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:36:35 ... the stuff that we've been talking about.

Tim Ferriss 1:36:37 [laughs] Medical Nostradamus strikes again.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:36:40 Exactly.

Tim Ferriss 1:36:40 [laughs] You know, uh, Andrew, y- people can find you at drweil.com.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:36:45 Yeah.

Tim Ferriss 1:36:45 Uh, medicine.arizona.edu. You're on, uh, Twitter, @DrWeil. That's W-E-I-L. Do you have any other, uh, or any final asks or requests or suggestions for people listening to the podcast at, just in the process of, uh, of, of, of finishing up?

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:37:04 No. I think, you know, my work is out there. It's easily, uh, accessed, and, um, I, I think it's relevant to many people today. And, um, I, I really enjoyed talking to you. I, uh, it's been a while since we worked together in person. I hope we can remedy that.

Tim Ferriss 1:37:19 Yes, definitely. Well, I guess, uh, you know, it, there might be more locations. I won't, uh [laughs] ...

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:37:24 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:37:25 True Food Kitchen popping up-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:37:27 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 1:37:27 ... in the very near future, and not, not necessarily too far away from either of us. So perhaps we can, we can rendezvous at one of those. Or even better if, uh, if I could sample some more produce from your garden, which was just incredible. Uh, and, uh, you know, maybe we can bring, invite some bald eagles, which was also something I'd never seen before.

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:37:46 Yep. Ha.

Tim Ferriss 1:37:47 While we're after it, um, that would be, that would be really wonderful. But, uh, I really appreciate you taking the time. I've, I've been wanting to have you on the podcast for, for quite a while, so it's nice to finally reconnect, and certainly hope it's, it's not the last time anytime soon. So thank-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:38:03 Good. Thanks for having me.

Tim Ferriss 1:38:04 Yeah, so thank you. And for everybody listening, everything we talked about, the books, the, uh, various websites, uh, the matcha, you name it, all of those will be available in the show notes, as always, at tim.blog/podcast, so you can find links and extended links to everything, studies and so on. And, uh, Andrew, thank you again. And-

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:38:27 Thank you

Tim Ferriss 1:38:27 ... to everybody listening, be safe, experiment and experience widely. [laughs]

Dr. Andrew Weil 1:38:33 Sure.

Tim Ferriss 1:38:33 Use, use your brains, pay attention to your body, and till next time, thank you for listening. [upbeat music] Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is 5-Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And 5-Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up [laughs] in the, uh, the world of the esoteric, as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little, tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out, and just drop in your email, and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. I get asked all the time, "If you could only use one supplement, what would it be?" And my answer is inevitably Athletic Greens. It is your all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body, did not get paid for that, and I travel with it to avoid getting sick. I take it in the mornings to ensure optimal performance. It just covers all my bases if I can't get what I need through whole food meals throughout the rest of the day. If you want to give Athletic Greens a try, they are offering a free 20-count travel pack for first-time users. I always travel with at least three or four of these. This represents a $100 value, so if you buy Athletic Greens, you get an extra $100 in free product. So check it out, athleticgreens.com/tim. Again, that's athleticgreens.com/tim for your free travel pack with any purchase. This episode is brought to you by Audible. Audible provides an unbeatable selection of audiobooks, including bestsellers, how-to, mysteries, thrillers, memoirs, and more. I've used Audible for many years, and I have a few audiobooks to recommend right off the bat. Number one, Ready Player One by Ernest Cline. So listen to the book that caught the attention of Spielberg enough to get made into a major film. The writing is fantastic. To Seneca by Seneca the Younger. This is a collection of letters, my favorite compilation of letters of all time that I've recommended the most of all the books I've ever read. And The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman. This is the fiction book that I use to convert nonfiction purists into fiction lovers. I like the version that Neil reads himself, but that's just me. He has a hypnotic voice. I also recently enjoyed Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg, which was recommended to me by best-selling author Neil Strauss. Make sure to get the audiobook version, and you'll recognize it by the peace sign on the cover. And as an Audible subscriber, you can choose three titles every month, one audiobook and two Audible Originals you can't hear anywhere else, and there's some really, really cool stuff among the Audible Originals. You can listen on any device, anytime, anywhere, at home, at the gym, while you're cooking, on your commute, or wherever. I often listen to audiobooks when I'm walking my pooch or on the way to the gym, so on and so forth. You'll also enjoy easy audiobook exchanges. In other words, if you don't like what you buy, and you're like, "Ah, I have buyer's remorse," you can swap it. Rollover credits, so if you don't use credits in a given month, they roll over into the next. And an audiobook library you keep forever, even if you cancel. This last part is important. Unlike, say, a streaming or rental service, with Audible, you own your books, even if you cancel your membership. And right now, for a limited time, you can get three months of Audible for just $6.95 a month. That's $6.95 a month, and that is also more than half off the regular price. So give yourself the gift of listening. And while you're at it, think about giving the gift of Audible to someone on your list. For more, go to audible.com/tim, T-I-M that is, audible.com/tim, or text Tim, T-I-M, to 500-500. [upbeat music]