George Mumford - Mindfulness Coach to Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant | The Tim Ferriss Show

Tim Ferriss 0:00 This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. My God, am I in love with Eight Sleep. Good sleep is the ultimate game changer. More than 30% of Americans struggle with sleep, and I'm a member of that sad group. Temperature is one of the main causes of poor sleep, and heat has always been my nemesis. I've suffered for decades, tossing and turning, throwing blankets off, putting them back on, and repeating ad nauseam. But now, I am falling asleep in record time, faster than ever. Why? Because I'm using a simple device called the Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep. It's the easiest and fastest way to sleep at the perfect temperature. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking to offer the most advanced but most user-friendly solution on the market. I polled all of you guys on social media about the best tools for sleep, enhancing sleep, and Eight Sleep was by far and away the crowd favorite. I mean, people were just raving fans of this. So I used it, and here we are. Add the Pod Pro Cover to your current mattress and start sleeping as cool as 55 degrees Fahrenheit or as hot as 110 degrees Fahrenheit. It also splits your bed in half so your partner can choose a totally different temperature. My girlfriend runs hot all the time. She doesn't need cooling. She loves the heat, and we can have our own bespoke temperatures on either side, which is exactly what we're doing. Now, for me, and for many people, the result, Eight Sleep users fall asleep up to 32% faster, reduce sleep interruptions by up to 40%, and get more restful sleep overall. I can personally attest to this because I track it in all sorts of ways. It's the total solution for enhanced recovery so you can take on the next day feeling refreshed. And now, my dear listeners, that's you guys, you can get $250 off of the Pod Pro Cover. That's a lot. Simply go to eightsleep.com/tim or use code Tim. That's eight, all spelled out, E-I-G-H-T, sleeps.com/tim or use coupon code Tim, T-I-M. EightSleep.com/tim for $200 off your Pod Pro Cover. This episode is brought to you by Tonal. That's T-O-N-A-L. Tonal is the world's most intelligent home gym and personal trainer. That's the tagline from their website, folks. So it gives you the one-sentence summary. By eliminating traditional metal weights, Tonal can deliver 200 pounds of resistance in a device smaller than a flat-screen TV. It mounts right on your wall with no floor space required. I've had one for a few months now after a number of close friends recommended Tonal to me, and it allows me to do things that I would normally need a huge gym for, like cable chop and lift or rotational exercises, and it allows me to do other things that are nearly impossible otherwise, like eccentric loading, which I'll talk about again later. Tonal is precision engineered and designed to be the world's most advanced strength studio and personal trainer. It uses breakthrough technology like adaptive digital weights and AI learning together with the best experts in resistance training so you can get stronger faster. One of my friends who used to be a competitive skier, very high-level competitive skier, has doubled his strength in many exercises over a period of months. So what are these adaptive digital weights? Tonal's patented digital weight system makes thousands of calculations a second to deliver you a smooth weightlifting experience using their advanced electronic motor technology. And a lot of the buttons are built right into the handles themselves, into the grips, so you don't need to move around, and it is extremely easy to use. Tonal lets you adjust the weight in one-pound increments, and you can do it on the fly, something that was never possible with traditional dumbbells. It's easy to dial weights up and down with just the touch of a button. Tonal also has built-in dynamic weight modes like chains, eccentric, and their patent-pending Smart Flex technology, so you can experiment with more ways to get stronger faster without the hassle of extra equipment like chains and bands. The eccentrics, which I mentioned, means that you can set a mode that allows you to say, just as an example, bicep curl 15 pounds up and then lower automatically 20, 25 pounds down. And it is incredible how much you can get done in just a handful of minutes when you use this type of technology. So check it out. Try Tonal, T-O-N-A-L, the world's smartest home gym, for 30 days in your home. And if you don't love it, you can return it for a full refund. Visit www.tonal.com, T-O-N-A-L.com, and for a limited time, get $100 off of smart accessories when you use promo code Tim21, like I'm ready for my first drink, at checkout. That's www.tonal, T-O-N-A-L, .com, promo code Tim21, T-I-M-21. Tonal, be your strongest.

George Mumford 4:53 Optimal, minimal.

Tim Ferriss 4:54 At this altitude, I can run flat-out for a half mile before my hands start to shake.

George Mumford 4:59 Can I ask you a personal question?

Tim Ferriss 5:01 Now would seem an appropriate time. What if I did the opposite?

George Mumford 5:05 I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

Tim Ferriss 5:09 The Tim Ferriss Show. Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to interview world-class performers from all different areas. And I feel very fortunate today to have not only a world-class performer in his own right, but a world-class performer who has a lot of experience working with world-class performers, George Mumford He is a globally recognized speaker, teacher, and coach. Since 1989, he's been honing his gentle but groundbreaking mindfulness techniques with people from locker rooms to boardrooms, from Yale to jail. While at the University of Massachusetts, where he roomed with future Hall of Famer Julius Erving, injuries forced Mumford out of basketball and eventually into an addiction to pain medication and drugs. With the help of meditation and mindfulness, he got clean and made it his mission to teach and work with others. Michael Jordan credits George with transforming his on-court leadership, helping the Bulls to six NBA championships. George has also worked with Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O’Neal, and countless other NBA players, as well as Olympians, executives, and artists. George believes everyone has a masterpiece within. His book, The Mindful Athlete: Secrets to Pure Performance, both memoir and instruction guide, can show you how to access it. George also has The Mindful Athlete Course, which can be found at GeorgeMumford.com, as well as many other resources. You can find him on Instagram at George.Mumford, M-U-M-F-O-R-D, and on Twitter at GTMumford. George, welcome to the show.

George Mumford 6:48 Thank you, Tim. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm excited about being here.

Tim Ferriss 6:52 Me too. We were introduced by our mutual friend, Jack Kornfield, who has nothing but wonderful things to say, and you are a practitioner in more ways than one. So I love digging into the details and the stories. So we're gonna start with a story, and then we'll probably rewind. But I would love to hear about the first time you ever watched Michael Jordan practice. What was that experience like?

George Mumford 7:20 The first time I watched Michael Jordan practice, it was amazing because he-- there's no difference between how he plays and what he, how he practices. So if you see him performing on the court, that's how he practices. There's no difference. He just playing at a high level, playing to win, but also you can see how he gets better each time he gets on the court. He just really locked in and really committed to excellence. I wanna dovetail because my first encounter with Michael was not in practice. It was when I first went to work with the Bulls. He had retired, and even though he was retired, he wasn't with the team, he actually was hanging around. He was in the locker room. And so I asked one of the players, or it might have been a coach, to, to introduce me to him. Even before I could get close to him, I could feel his aura. I could feel his, his ability, his level of concentration, his mind focus, his ability. He had this energy. And I'm like an empath, so I can feel things. I'm a, I'm a feeler. It was so profound, even before I even got to meet him, just feeling the energy that exuded from him and his ability to really be the eye of the hurricane in the midst of things. So that was the first fascinating thing I saw about him, was just his energy, just walking into the room and meeting him. Even though he didn't have on a basketball uniform, he wasn't out on the court, he was just in the locker room just hanging out.

Tim Ferriss 8:46 What is it that you felt, like, in your body? What was that experience like?

George Mumford 8:52 In meditation circles, we talk about getting into a state of intense state of concentration or samadhi or calm. So when you're really concentrated and you're really locked in, there's a, like, an alert relaxedness. So you're alert, but there's a poise there because you're in the moment, you're centered, and you're just totally present. And that's what it felt like. It just felt like a, there was a energy, a calm energy, but also an intense energy.

Tim Ferriss 9:18 Hmm.

George Mumford 9:19 So that's what it felt like, a combination of intensity and calmness.

Tim Ferriss 9:24 Now, you can't trust everything you read, but I was, of course, doing some reading in preparation for this. So please feel free to fact-check this. But I read that when you first saw him practicing, you thought to yourself something along the lines of, "There's no way he can sustain that. This must be someone with bipolar disorder [chuckles] or some type of disorder who's in a manic stage." Is there any truth to that?

George Mumford 9:49 No, I never said that.

Tim Ferriss 9:51 Okay. [chuckles] So-

George Mumford 9:52 I, I never-- no, 'cause my thing is, see, I, I know the difference between high intensity and having an intensity based on, on a mindset that's positive and combined. The one thing I did notice about the first practice that you reminded me of was that when I first saw him practice, he looked like a person trying to make the team.

Tim Ferriss 10:14 In what respect? He was just, uh, he was putting forth the extra effort.

George Mumford 10:18 Putting forth the extra effort, like I gotta make the team. And of course, now that I understand why he was that way because what he did was, let's think about how he related to his experience. We call it strong self-efficacy. It's like when you master your mastery of life experiences. So he got cut from his high school basketball team-

Tim Ferriss 10:35 Hmm

George Mumford 10:36 ... in the tenth grade. And so I think at that time, he made a decision he would never get cut from a team again. And I saw that in the practice-

Tim Ferriss 10:46 Hmm

George Mumford 10:46 ... where he was acting like he was trying to make the team. Now, I don't mean, like, like he has a anxiety and he, he's trying to impress people. I'm saying he was proving that he's the best player on the court. You were getting his best. You were getting at a high level. He wasn't resting. He was acting like, "I need to get better. I need to prove a point." Not so much prove a point, but to let people know that there's no way I'm not making this team-

Tim Ferriss 11:13 Hmm

George Mumford 11:13 ... or there's no way I'm not gonna be central to what we're doing. So I see it as a positive. I don't remember saying that 'cause I, I don't know if I would s- I would say he has high energy. I know other people that have high energy. But his difference of him having high energy, it's with a purpose, and there's a cat-like quality to it. And what I mean by, like, a cat-like quality, like, you could see a cat, a house cat. They can go from being kinda chill to jumping to action with a grace, with a ease, with a ferocity, and with a direction, like a direct assault or whatever. They just shh. It was like, yeah, he could pounce on you any minute.

Tim Ferriss 11:51 [laughs] And we're gonna certainly come back to Michael Jordan, who especially, I mean, at that time, was effectively treated like a god. I mean, this was-

George Mumford 12:01 Mm-hmm

Tim Ferriss 12:01 ... this was the man who could walk on water. And, uh, I'll add a, a footnote just for anyone at Vice who's listening. So this is an article from Vice.com, which has a lot of great articles, well-researched articles, but this one may need some factual corrections. So that is the Zen Master's Zen Master, which is a great headline, though, you must admit.

George Mumford 12:18 Mm-hmm.

Tim Ferriss 12:18 That is [laughs] that is a very complimentary headline. Let's roll back the clock because I wanted to provide a snapshot of you working with not just athletes at the top of their game, but really at the time, this pantheon of athletes who were worshiped around the world, and there's a big difference.

George Mumford 12:42 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Tim Ferriss 12:42 There really is a difference.

George Mumford 12:43 Right.

Tim Ferriss 12:44 But it wasn't always that way, far from it. And so let's fact-check a separate quote, [laughs] and you can tell me if this is more on the money. And I should say also that the Manic quote wasn't so much a quote, it was an indirect quote, so they didn't use quotation marks, but they said-

George Mumford 13:02 Oh, they didn't

Tim Ferriss 13:02 ... thought to himself and things like that. This is one that I believe is a direct quote, and it's from The Boston Globe. Quote, "I had a security clearance on my badge and track marks on my forearm." If that is even approximately accurate, could you provide a time and a place for when this was-

George Mumford 13:21 Yeah

Tim Ferriss 13:21 ... and explain, please?

George Mumford 13:23 Yeah, that was totally accurate because when I first jumped out of college was I was working in w- what was called, it was a financial management development program, and I was working for GTE Sylvania. I don't even know if that, what they're called now, but General Telephone Electronics and then Sylvania light bulbs, and that was a big company. At the time when I got out of college, I was a functional addict, and so I had tracks on my arms. So I had, I always wore long-sleeve shirts. I couldn't we- wear short-sleeve shirts. And-

Tim Ferriss 13:54 And this was from the her- heroin use?

George Mumford 13:56 Mm-hmm.

Tim Ferriss 13:57 Heroin use.

George Mumford 13:57 Yeah, from shooting up. Yes. So in those days when, when I was getting my security clearance, they literally had FBI agents coming around and interviewing my friends and family going back 10 years. You have to go through this tremendous process just to get a s- secret clearance, and then there's top secret. But I had the secret clearance, so I had the clearance, but at the same time, I had this hidden life of, you know, tracks on my arm, so that's very accurate.

Tim Ferriss 14:23 Hmm.

George Mumford 14:24 It's totally accurate, and it wasn't until probably when I got clean in '84, years after that, that, that there's no, no more track marks. But for years it was very tenuous because I was concerned about passing physicals because I had to get examined [laughs] by the doctors and they say, "Oh, what's up with that?" You know? [laughs] "What's that on your arm?" You know? They kinda know what it looks like. That was a process, and as a matter of fact, when I used to have to give blood sometimes they would make a comment like, "Well, you got that all used up look" [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 14:53 [laughs]

George Mumford 14:54 "... on your arms." You know? So I would just laugh at it. But it was a fair statement. So yeah, I, I had to wear long-sleeve shirts all year round.

Tim Ferriss 15:02 At that time, and this might seem like a really silly question because in the introduction and in the bio I read, it mentioned injuries and addiction. But at that point when you had this clearance and you're shooting up, why were you an addict? That's not to say that it wasn't natural and understandable. I'm just, I'm just wondering if it was a by-product of the pain and then you became physically dependent or if there was more to it.

George Mumford 15:32 It's complex, but one of the things I discovered in my days of competing as an athlete, when I got injured, they didn't have pain medicine, so they would give me Darvon or they'd give me some kind of pain ... because I was always in pain.

Tim Ferriss 15:46 Mm-hmm.

George Mumford 15:46 Part of it was emotional pain. I had a lot of stomach problems or GI issues 'cause of stress. I noticed that when I was, was under the influence of these pain meds that I actually felt good and I could talk to people. Other than that, I was quiet and shy and let my basketball talk to me. So it impacted me in a certain way like any addiction. So you do it, you do it, and then you cross that line where you become addicted, you cannot not do it. Not only does it become something that your body craves, but it becomes part of a lifestyle, part of an identity. So I got my first vaccination shot two weeks ago tomorrow, and I remember, so she went right into my arm, gave me a vaccination spot, and I realized that it reminded me when I started using drugs, I didn't start off just going into the vein. I started off what we call skin popping, just like getting a vaccine. It is put into your system, into the skin. So it always starts where you, you know, you just get high a little bit, then it keeps growing. It's a progressive thing. It's a progressive disease, and it kept progressing and then you start doing other things, and then you start doing things in combination, and then you're doing drugs that are not even your drugs of choice or drinking things you don't even drink. You're looking to get high, so it's the emotional pain, but it's also a way of dealing with reality. So that was my thing. I was under the influence in one way, form, or fashion.

Tim Ferriss 17:07 Many addicts don't make it out or they don't stop using until they either just continue as a functioning addict until the end of their days or some catastrophe befalls them. What were the deciding moments or elements that helped you to become sober?

George Mumford 17:33 I had an incident, I think it was in March, because I went to my first 12-step meeting, which was AA on April Fool's Day, April 1st. In March, I had a strep infection, but I didn't know that I was sick until I went to the doctor's and I had 104-degree temperature, so I had to go in the hospital. I went in the hospital, and I had a abscess in my arm, and they had to treat it And they wouldn't give me any pain meds 'cause they knew I was addicted to drugs and I was withdrawing or whatever. And at that point, as people would say, "You know, if you keep this up, you're gonna die." And for some reason, it hit me that I just couldn't do it anymore. And so I got to a spiritual bottom. So I call it as the elevator theory. You might start off at the penthouse, and for some people, they have to go to the sub-level, B2 or B3, whatever it is. But for me, I knew I was at maybe not at the penthouse, but if I was on, on the 25th floor, I'm now on the fourth floor, then I'm heading towards the third floor. So I decided to get out because, you know, I just couldn't do it anymore. It was just emotionally, it was like being in a place where I couldn't do it anymore, but I could not not do it [laughs] 'cause it was a habit.

Tim Ferriss 18:47 Right.

George Mumford 18:47 That was in March when I think started hitting the rock bottom, and then when my friend came by, took me to AA meeting on April 1st, that's when I saw that there was, there was a way forward. There was a way out. I looked at this person that was like me, but yet he was, he had sobriety. I went to the meeting, and then I continued to use and, but I started thinking about ways, and then when I went into the detox, I was different. But I think all of that paid dividends, so even though I was around recovery, going to meetings, but I was still getting high and, well, using drugs and alcohol. But mostly, yeah, I was doing both, but it was different. Something changed when I shifted, when I went to my first meeting. But then what happened when I went into the detox, there was a thought process or inner dialogue that said, "The same George that goes in here can't be the same George that comes out."

Tim Ferriss 19:43 Hmm.

George Mumford 19:43 'Cause the same George that goes in, if that George comes out, he's gonna get high. He's gonna keep doing what he's doing, so you have to be a different person. You have to be a different George. And I don't know where that came from. It was just, just a thought that told me that, yeah, I had to do it differently. I had to be different.

Tim Ferriss 19:59 Where were you at the time, geographically?

George Mumford 20:02 Yeah, I was living in Dorchester. I mean, actually, where did I live? I lived in Mattapan, so I was living in Boston. A lot was happening. I, I lost my car. You know, I was just barely surviving. I continued to work and everything, but I had some issues. And when I did that, and the detox is in walking distance from my house, and so after I got out of the detox and walked home, it was the first time I ever saw my house, my street.

Tim Ferriss 20:28 First time you ever saw it, meaning you, first time you saw it in a, in with clarity.

George Mumford 20:31 On life on life's terms, where I could really see it and not seeing it through a phase or through, through a haze.

Tim Ferriss 20:37 Hmm.

George Mumford 20:37 Or, you know, 'cause I, I lived in fantasy or I was, you know, hiding out in plain sight.

Tim Ferriss 20:42 Hmm.

George Mumford 20:43 So I didn't know that until I noticed that, oh, I'm really seeing, [laughs] you know, I really see things.

Tim Ferriss 20:47 [laughs]

George Mumford 20:47 But it was more about me really seeing life and seeing myself for the first time without having the influence of substances or hiding out in my own little inner fantasy world.

Tim Ferriss 20:59 How did mindfulness in any capacity enter your life?

George Mumford 21:06 What happened was, just to give you a little insight, my spiritual experience or my first mindfulness or meditative experience that I can think of that, that was powerful was that day I got out of the detox, and maybe it was the next day, I went to work. When I went to work, I, I had like, it was three weeks out of work. I had all this money waiting for me, and the obsession to lo- to use, the compulsion, obsession to use came upon me. This is the thing. I got triggered, and I knew that if I were to go into the restroom, in the men's room and just recite the serenity prayer, "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference," I did that like a mantra, just repeating it silently over and over, and the obsession was removed, and I had some stabilization. So that was my first experience. But what also happened when I got clean, I had chronic pain. My migraine headaches, which if anybody ever had a migraine headache, you know when it gets to a point, doesn't matter what they give you, it's just not enough. And I had chronic back pains, which I had since college. I used to sleep on a bed board, and I've been going to a chiropractor since 1975. So what is that, 46 years?

Tim Ferriss 22:22 Yeah, long time.

George Mumford 22:23 So I, I was going to chiropractor before, you know, when it was still wasn't viewed like it is today. So I had a lot of pain. I was dealing with my pain, administering pain medicine, not just physical, but emotional and probably spiritual pain.

Tim Ferriss 22:38 So you use the serenity prayer as this sort of grounding mantra that helps you to stabilize. And then from where does the mindfulness or meditation come?

George Mumford 22:53 So I had the chronic pain, and so at the same time, I was in a HMO back in those days and, and they had this experimental program. So I was in-- I had a therapist I was working with to help me, you know, sort out stuff so I can go into the detox, and I was working with him. And when I got out, we were talking about strategies, and they had this experimental program run out of Beth Israel run by Dr. Joan Borysenko, who at the time was one of the three psychoneuroimmunologists in the world. It just means mind-body medicine and the endocrine system and that sort of thing. So they had this stress management program, so I signed up and I had to pee and spit, and they'd take pre and post-testing. And what they did was they introduced us to this idea of taking responsibility for ourselves, learning about the mind-body process, but being an active participant with the healthcare that we were getting, whether it was the doctor or whatever. And that's where I learned about meditation and mindfulness and yoga and, and some of the mind-body practices like Tai Chi and yoga, obviously. And they gave us a syllabus of a bunch of books to read I don't know if they had twenty, twenty-five books on that list. I read every one of those books, and then I read books that they recommended. So I'm thirty-six years and six months clean and sober, and I have averaged over a book a week during that time. So I just really got into understanding. I wanted to understand how did I get clean and others don't? What was the motivation? How do I enhance my ability to grow and develop? And so I got really stimulated, intellectually stimulated around that, and that's how I got into this whole thing of mindfulness. And then I was doing that, and that helped with my recovery. I was already in twelve steps. My recovery was pretty good 'cause I, I was connected to the spirit or I had my concept of God, which worked for me and, and allowed me to understand that there is a power greater than myself and that all I had to do is basically, there's a plug in the wall. All I had to do is plug into the power source and, and I would be able to do things. And then as a natural outgrowth of that, she suggested that I go to do a retreat at this place in Barre, Mass called Insight Meditation Society. And so I did a weekend retreat there, and then I was introduced to the Cambridge Insight Meditation Center, which is in the s- in Cambridge, right in the city, and you could go there and do day longs and stuff like that. So that's how I got into it. And then while I was doing that, my teacher there, Larry Rosenberg, was good friends with Jon Kabat-Zinn. After three, four years of recovery, I connected with Jon, and then I did the mindfulness-based stress reduction, and then I ended up working in the, um, Center for Mindfulness. At that time it was called Stress Reduction and Relaxation Program. I ended up working there for five years. I had a prison project, and then we developed an inner city project. But I lived at the Meditation Center, uh, in Cambridge for six years while I was working and two years where I wasn't working, where I was just meditating and reading and studying and teaching. Going out from the center, we'd get these requests from different outlets. It could be a youth center, it could be a business like AT&T or NYNEX at the time. And I would go out and I would teach mindfulness. I would teach meditation, uh, Harvard Business School. So I was doing my training, uh, to become a teacher. At the same time, I was continuing to grow and evolve. And then when I worked at the Center for Mindfulness, it was part of my job is to teach mindfulness-based stress reduction. But really it was more about teaching them the same process I had. It's an inner game and how to take control of your life in the sense of being responsible and understanding how the mind and body work and how we can relate to our experience in a way that leads to more peace, ease, freedom, compassion.

Tim Ferriss 26:46 That's one hell of a U-turn and self-transformation.

George Mumford 26:50 Yes.

Tim Ferriss 26:50 And I'm also still thinking about the stacks of books that would represent the number of books you've read over that period of time that you mentioned. Were there any books in the beginning that really ignited you or any books that you remember really grabbing your attention? Because you, you really applied yourself-

George Mumford 27:14 Yes

Tim Ferriss 27:14 ... in a very-

George Mumford 27:16 Yes

Tim Ferriss 27:16 ... wholehearted way, and I'm wondering what some of the catalysts might have been. Were any books particularly impactful or conversations?

George Mumford 27:24 One that was on a New York best seller list for like ten years, The Road Less Traveled by, um-

Tim Ferriss 27:30 Yeah

George Mumford 27:30 ... M. Scott Peck, but also Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. It was a lot of books. Pain as Motivator, Love is Letting Go of Fear, and there were a lot of different books, but the Bible was always in there. It's interesting, I was doing like a presentation at Lululemon for about a thousand people a couple years ago, and they asked me, "Well, what book would I recommend?" And I was thinking about, 'cause there's tons of books, depends on where you are and what books work for you. And I said, uh, "The Bible." And I don't know where that came from. It just came out of my deep sense. And I said, "Well, that makes sense because there's one in every hotel room, and there's a lot of stuff in there." And I said, "The acronym that I remember is ask, A-S-K, and that is ask and it shall be given to you, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you." It's amazing. I went to Su- Sunday school till I was thirteen, then I stopped going to church. And yet, as I get older, all of those sayings, like there's even mindfulness in the Bible. "A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways." And I started realizing that spiritual truth is spiritual truth, whether it comes out of the Bible or the Quran or the Kabbalah. It doesn't matter. Or from the Buddhist teachings. It's all that wisdom, literature, and philosophy. I've read a lot of Martin Buber's stuff, I and Thou, The Way of Man. I got really drawn to existentialism when I went back to graduate school, and I studied Viktor Frankl and Man's Search for Meaning and what I call the religious existentialists like Viktor Frankl and Martin Buber, and then there's Camus, Sartre, Kierkegaard.

Tim Ferriss 29:11 If we look at the entire spectrum of books you've read, I'll try to help narrow them down, and then we'll, we'll move into some different lines of questioning. But what books would you say, aside from your own, that you have gifted to other people or recommended the most to other people? Those people could be high-level athletes. I'm just wondering if there are a handful of books that you tend to gift the most or recommend the most to other people.

George Mumford 29:39 Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind used to be one that I would recommend years ago. So it depends on, on the time and who the person is. But I think more recently when we're talking about performance, when I'm working with clients, it's, there's a book called The 3 Laws of Performance. This is what that looks like. It's a really good one.

Tim Ferriss 29:58 Steve Safran and Dave Logan.

George Mumford 30:00 Yeah, yeah. And then on becoming a leader, the, these are the books that I've been reading recently by Warren Bennis

Tim Ferriss 30:07 Warren Bennis, yeah. Lots of good stuff

George Mumford 30:08 Yeah. The thing I like about it, he says, "To become a leader, you have to become yourself." So I've been focusing on leadership a little bit more recently. But any of the books that, you know, some of the books about the teachings of the Buddha or psychology books. I read a lot of Rollo May, The Meaning of Anxiety, Erich Fromm. There's a bunch of guys. Obviously, Victor Frankl's book, Man's Search for Meaning would be a good one. It's really challenging for me to answer that question because it's fluid.

Tim Ferriss 30:39 Yeah, totally. Depends on the person as well. [electronic buzzing] Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs. Small business owners have always shown an incredible ability to adapt and innovate. This past year has certainly highlighted many examples. Now, another way you can adapt and innovate in 2021 is by finding the right people to help you grow your business. LinkedIn Jobs makes it possible for you to do exactly that. Get started by posting your job for free to reach LinkedIn's network of more than 740 million professionals. Fill out targeted screening questions to get your role in front of the most qualified candidates with the experience, skills, and motivation you're looking for. Then, with simple filtering and management tools, you can easily review, rate, and home in on your top candidates. LinkedIn Jobs can help you find the right person to help you grow your business, and your first job post is free. So just visit linkedin.com/tim to learn more. Again, that's linkedin.com/tim to post your first job for free. Terms and conditions do apply. [electronic buzzing] Well, it seems like you're traveling this path. You've gone from competitive athlete, then to working and using simultaneously. You become sober. You're still working, but then the nature of your self-work certainly changes, and you're developing this ability, cultivating this greater awareness, this ability to observe your own thinking. How did elite sports enter the picture? How did you end up becoming connected to that world?

George Mumford 32:21 When I was working at the medical center, and at that time we had the Prison Project. We were in about five Department of Corrections, Massachusetts Department of Corrections prisons, but I also taught at their training facility. I used to work with staff, do two cycles a year of teaching the staff mindfulness-based stress reduction. At that time, Jon used to go to this place called Omega Institute.

Tim Ferriss 32:44 Jon Kabat-Zinn.

George Mumford 32:45 Jon Kabat-Zinn. And, uh, he was out there, him and his partner, Saki Santorelli, and, and they met, and Phil used to do a program called Beyond Basketball there. So they were there on campus at the same time, and they were talking and-

Tim Ferriss 33:00 This is Phil Jackson

George Mumford 33:01 ... Phil Jackson. Phil Jackson. I'm sorry. I keep-

Tim Ferriss 33:02 Which a lot-

George Mumford 33:03 You caught me

Tim Ferriss 33:03 ... That's, that's okay. Which a lot of people would have-

George Mumford 33:05 Phil. Yeah

Tim Ferriss 33:05 ... seen from The Last Dance.

George Mumford 33:07 Yes. So at that summer interaction, Phil was, and his wife at the time, June, they were interested in having somebody come in and work with the Bulls at, 'cause they had just won three NBA championships in a row. And so they were giving a presentation, and then they saw me, and they said, "Well, who's this guy?" And, "Who does he work with?" They said, "Yeah, this is George Mumford. He roomed with Dr. J, and, you know, he does this." And they said, "He would be perfect for our team." And so Phil and I talked, and he invited me to training camp in 1993. And in the interim, we talked in July. In the interim, Michael Jordan's father got murdered, and Michael retired. When I showed up in Chicago in October of 1993, they were in full-blown crisis. And then I went in and they were, and I had to pretty much doing a intervention with the team and then talking to them about this process of, I talked about being a spiritual warrior. Just like martial arts, you have to train a certain way. And so I talked about martial arts. I studied Tai Chi for a lot of years. I brought Zen into martial arts. That's what I, I presented to them, and then being in the zone, being in flow. That's how it all started, and then it just took off from there.

Tim Ferriss 34:20 Let's approach this from a bunch of different angles. The first angle I'd love to cover is what Phil believed the team needed or why he felt it would be well-served by having your skill set or you there. What, what was it that he hoped to accomplish?

George Mumford 34:43 Phil, we have a, a similar philosophy. You may recall when LeBron James entered into the political sphere, they told him to just dribble and shut up. Phil looks at the whole person as a basketball player with a body, mind, heart, and soul. And so to him, he's, his job is to care for them and beyond basketball, and they had just won three NBA championships. They were dealing with the stress of success. What happens when you become successful? Everybody comes at you. They want something. He wanted them to be prepared and wanted to support them in their ability to sustain that success and to continue to grow and evolve as people, not just basketball players. And so bringing me in to, to help them deal with the stress of success, 'cause I was working in a stress reduction clinic, it made a lot of sense [laughs] .

Tim Ferriss 35:33 Mm-hmm.

George Mumford 35:33 And yet I, I had similar backgrounds, and I, I played basketball. I was a athlete, and I was around celebrity. Dr. J was Michael Jordan before Michael Jordan, so even when I was in college being his roommate, everywhere he went, it was like, not quite like The Beatles-

Tim Ferriss 35:49 Mm

George Mumford 35:49 ... but everybody would come and, and he just couldn't go many places because he would draw a crowd. He had a certain level of charisma and stuff. So I had my experience, had the experience of, and I used to go visit him when he played in the ABA. So I've been around the NBA and that sort of thing, so it made perfect sense for me to go in and to teach them how to deal with the stress of success. That was the initial Thing, but of course, when I had gone down there, they were, had a identity crisis as well as an opportunity to grow, and that's what I proposed to the, to the team, is that crisis has two meanings. One meaning is danger, which we get, but the other meaning is opportunity. That this is an opportunity to look... Just like me, it's a opportunity. My substance abuse wasn't a curse, it was a blessing. Wouldn't be who I was if I didn't experience that. How do we relate to life in a way where it empowers and inspires us? That's why when I, I was down there, that's why I worked so well with Phil, because if he didn't have my philosophy, if he had the philosophy of just shut up and dribble, I, I wouldn't be able to work with him.

Tim Ferriss 36:56 Had Phil tried other approaches to impart, even if this word is appropriate, as the objective, mindfulness? Had he tried other things-

George Mumford 37:06 Mm-hmm

Tim Ferriss 37:06 ... before? Or was, were you just the perfect vehicle in his mind for introducing the players to some of these skills?

George Mumford 37:16 To answer your question, yes, that's what happened. I came in and he realized that it could work, and especially, it's nothing like baptism, you know? [laughs] Baptism by fire.

Tim Ferriss 37:26 Baptism by fire. [laughs]

George Mumford 37:27 Yes. That's what it was. Okay, how'd you do? Oh, it's okay when everything's nice, but what's gonna happen when, when everybody's butts are on fire? How's he gonna... Is he gonna be able to meet the challenge? I think that Phil used to do sessions with the guys, but it was obvious, and he says it in his books, that it made sense for somebody from the outside to come in. And because I could do it in a way where they could listen to me and I had a f- user-friendly language, you know, I could teach in any domain. That was all of those years going and making house calls, if you will. Not working in the main centers or, or the traditional places, but going where people lived and being able to talk to them in a language they could understand, but yet give them the essence of the teachings. But he has, from time to time, he's, he's brought in yoga teachers, he's brought in somebody to teach them tai chi. But the thing was, I think a lot of people can have the training in these disciplines, but you have to meet people where they are. And so they would come in, and I remember having conversations with this one particular person, and I told her, I said, "They just had two and a half hour practice. You can't take them through two hours of yoga."

Tim Ferriss 38:37 Mm-hmm.

George Mumford 38:37 You can't do it.

Tim Ferriss 38:38 Yeah.

George Mumford 38:38 Or you have to make it real for them, and you have to understand that less is more. Might be better for you to teach them how to stretch and relax a little bit, and then depending on their situation, and you can teach them, some people maybe need more standing yoga poses, whatever. So my whole idea was you gotta start with the understanding of what you can do to help the situation, and you gotta meet people where they were. So a lot of people, I think, or at least in, in some cases, they come in not understanding that the context is more important than the content.

Tim Ferriss 39:12 That's a really, that's a really, really important concept in line to underscore, right? The context is more important than the content. And this insomuch as what that sort of brings to mind for me is that the tendency, the very understandable impulse that a lot of people have to copy and paste whatever is working in one place to another place. But-

George Mumford 39:34 Right

Tim Ferriss 39:34 ... that just doesn't necessarily work. Like you said, if someone's just come out of a two and a half hour practice, and they're going 100%, they don't have the slack in the system to do two hours of yoga. And I've, I read that, a- as you noted, one of the things you observed when you first started working with the Chicago Bulls was that they're dealing with all types of distractions that you don't necessarily-

George Mumford 39:58 Mm-hmm

Tim Ferriss 39:58 ... get exposed to until you're at a higher level, and that the more successful a person or team becomes, the more distractions there are. So it actually gets, in some respects, very difficult to continue doing the things that got you to where you are in the first place. So they're getting requests for tickets from friends and other hangers on right before some of their most important games, all manners of shiny objects and obstacles and distractions. What were some of the recommendations you made or tools you suggested, anything to these players so they could turn down the volume on some of these distractions?

George Mumford 40:38 Yes. The thing is understanding that whatever you're doing, you gotta be fully present to it, and understanding what are you doing and what are the consequences. What's it costing you? How much energy can you allow for this activity versus the next activity? I would say a lot of things to them. One thing I would say to them is, "Don't believe the hype." So what does that mean? That means that when you go get interviewed, if they tell you you're the greatest thing since sliced bread, you say thank you and you just smile. And if they tell you you're the biggest choke artist of all time, you just thank them and smile. So it's more about how do you relate-

Tim Ferriss 41:13 [laughs]

George Mumford 41:14 ... to people and just not give energy to that, and just really understand that what's really important. You have to understand that even though you have your family with you, even though there's certain things that are going on, you have to create a, a kind of a cocoon for yourself to be ready to play. And so y- your rituals, your, your rituals the day of the game. And so I would talk to them about rituals, but it was really more about there's no such thing as multitasking, that you just do one thing at a time. So if you have a process where you're gonna write tickets for a certain amount of time at certain time during y- the pregame thing, then you do that, then you set that aside, then you have to have your space and time for your readiness for you to get ready to play. But I didn't really get into that. They'd have to ask me about it. Back in those days, it was really different. I, it was like they had a volunteer, whereas now, the analogy I would use is before it was like laissez-faire, the ones that wanted to do it, fine, the ones that didn't, that's fine. But I have the analogy of if you have somebody out in the rain- You can at least go out there with an umbrella and ask them if they want to come in. [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 42:24 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

George Mumford 42:25 You know, so you just meet them where they are, and then if you can kind of bring them in. But some people, they thrive. I mean, everybody's different. Some people like quiet. Some people want, you know, rousing music. It's different.

Tim Ferriss 42:37 Like Dennis Rodman in the latter category.

George Mumford 42:38 Yeah, like Dennis Rodman. But it's really more about them-- It was really more about teaching them from moment to moment how they're relating to their experience and understanding the quality of mind that they have, the mind state that they have, and how to just be in the moment and to be clear about what you're doing and what you're getting, and the willingness to adjust and adapt. Like you said, what gets you here is just what that is. It got you here, but to go beyond that, you have to let go to grow, and you have to be willing to develop other habit patterns, other ways of being to go, to continue to evolve and to grow. So it's really more about the inner game and them getting clarity about what they want and who they're being and how to develop the me, but the we has to be the context in which the me is operating.

Tim Ferriss 43:29 S- let's talk about meeting people where they are because that person in the rain, you know, you might have, not to stretch the metaphor too far, but you might have one person who's doing jumping jacks and smiling, one person who's huddling in a corner, [laughs] another person who's, who knows, drinking out of a puddle. There are so many different personalities.

George Mumford 43:49 Right.

Tim Ferriss 43:49 And I was reading a piece in The Boston Globe, and man, I mean, you, you-- the, the types of testimonials that you have, the belief that other people ascribe to you is, is just incredible. I, and, uh, I'll just read a little piece here. This is from The Boston Globe, a piece in twenty fifteen. This is Kobe Bryant. He's basically saying, I'm gonna paraphrase here, so he's saying that many people tried to get him to meditate. Kobe Bryant once told an interviewer, quote, "But I couldn't sit still for twenty minutes." Under the tutelage of Phil Jackson and Mumford, however, meditation became a key to game preparation for Bryant and for his teammate and feud counterpart, Shaquille O'Neal. "There weren't a lot of things that Shaq and Kobe agreed on," says Lazenby, another person in this piece, "but they both agreed on the effectiveness of George Mumford." [laughs] Okay. Could you speak to the differences or similarities in teaching, say, Michael Jordan versus Kobe versus Shaquille O'Neal some of the tools in your toolkit? Like, how did you approach those seemingly very different personalities?

George Mumford 44:53 When I say talk about meeting people where they are, I let the wisdom and the mindfulness dictate what I do. I have to get insight. I have to get a clarity of, okay, w-what's the context, and how do I deal with this person? One size does not fit all. It has to be a specificity of really getting clear, but also getting clear in my mind what's my intention. But at the same time, it's just going in and just figuring out how to relate to them in a way that makes sense. You think about, about the great spiritual teachers like Jesus or Buddha, they talk in parables. Or if they're going to talk to carpenters, they're gonna use carpentry examples. If you're gonna talk to people who are bricklayers or stonemasons, you're gonna use that language to express the essence of what you're talking about. So when you talk to people about if you create a vision of possibility where you say, "Hey, you're challenged with this," or, "You want to achieve this, you might consider doing this," 'cause this can enhance you. And by the way, you know, I did this with this person, or, you know, I know the elites, they do that. Yeah, I roomed with J. J., Dr. J., I'm talking about, and he, you know, I know for a fact there's certain practices people have, there's certain ways of being that you can have. So some people are auditory, some people are visual, some people are kinesthetic, so I have to meet them in that modality where they can take in information. So a lot of it is connecting with them. I don't know how else to say it.

Tim Ferriss 46:19 Yeah.

George Mumford 46:19 And then, and then feeling your way through, just being present with it and relating to them as each individual and understanding how, what will work for them. When I first started doing this, I didn't like standing still. I used to do more walking meditation than sitting or do more tai chi or more yoga. But I talk about sometimes you got to move your way into stillness.

Tim Ferriss 46:44 I like that. That's great. Yeah.

George Mumford 46:46 And then sometimes-- And you have stillness and movement. It's my teacher, my sifu used to talk about there's movement in stillness and stillness in movement. So you have to understand my modality is more, like, physical, so how do I move myself in the stillness?

Tim Ferriss 47:00 Can you give any examples, any specific examples or stories related to working with, say, Kobe or Shaq? I'm curious to know what this looks like in practice, if any moments or stories or examples come to mind.

George Mumford 47:16 It's interesting 'cause I spend a lot of my time just, just sitting there observing. Most of it is observing and getting a sense for where people are and then finding the moments when I can go in and, and give them a teaching or talk to them about something they're dealing with. I had a conversation with Kobe early on in my first year I worked with him when I said to Kobe, "The best way to score is not to try to score," 'cause I saw that he was trying really hard. And several years ago, when he invited me to go down to Newport Beach and hang out with him, I asked him about that, and he said that he remembered everything I told him. He has, like, a photographic memory. But it's picking the time to really ask them how they're seeing things or talk to them about, "Okay, I know you want to achieve this. Think about this." A lot of people think that the practice of mindfulness, the practice of insight meditation is just sitting and being still. There's a big part of it is, is cultivating wisdom and talking about integrity, talking about walking your talk, but also understanding how to cultivate A sense of compassion for yourself and others and how to, I guess love is the way I would talk about it. You- when you love something, you labor for it, y- you make it grow. And so talking about just heart to heart, just talking about, well, if this is what you're interested in, here's an application. Here's a way of thinking or looking at it, and you might consider these things.

Tim Ferriss 48:44 Could you explain what the dizziness of freedom is? I've heard you use this-

George Mumford 48:50 [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 48:50 ... phrase before.

George Mumford 48:51 Yes.

Tim Ferriss 48:52 And, uh, it really stuck with me. Could you please explain what this is and how you see it?

George Mumford 48:58 Freedom is not free, if you will. [laughs] So the dizziness of freedom is because you're on- you're on the road less traveled or you're on shaky ground. The ground you're on is moving to the degree that, and I'm going back to 1846, Soren Kierkegaard, and he said that one side of the coin is freedom or potential, the heads, the other side is anxiety or uncertainty.

Tim Ferriss 49:23 Hmm.

George Mumford 49:23 He called it the alarming possibility of being able.

Tim Ferriss 49:26 [laughs]

George Mumford 49:29 When you change a behavior or a habit, you have to experience anxiety. You have to experience uncertainty. You have to experience discomfort because we're comfortable with where we are, and so when we grow, the only way that happens is you gotta be able to be a little bit uncomfortable. You gotta be beyond your comfort zone. You gotta have a discomfort zone where you go into.

Tim Ferriss 49:53 [laughs]

George Mumford 49:53 And then because we adapt to things, then you will adapt. So it's possible you get comfortable with being uncomfortable. So the dizziness of freedom is like, okay, before when you didn't have freedom, you did the same thing. You don't have to think, you don't have to reflect, you don't have to take a risk, you don't have to be vulnerable. But now you're being freedom and you're going through a different door, you're trying something else, then the dizziness of it is you do this thing, but you could do that thing. How do you make a choice out of all of these options? And you wanna have more options 'cause if you only have two options, on some level it's restricting, but on another level it's yes, either/or. So when you start understanding that there's just-- there's no meaning in the universe other than what you give it, or even though you could do this thing, you can also do that thing, and when you do this thing, you no longer have those things. So if I have five choices and I make one, I lose four. So now that I'm in here, now I'm worried, oh, did I make the right choice? So the uncertainty.

Tim Ferriss 50:53 Mm-hmm.

George Mumford 50:53 It's a military term they use, VUCA, V-U-C-A. From moment to moment, things are volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous, so you have to embrace uncertainty, ambiguity. That's part of the life. This is what life is about. It's about saying yes and. Yes, it's frustrating, it's unpleasant, and it's okay. This is it. When I grow, this is what comes with it. If I achieve my goals, you look at the positive, but there's a negative. The other side is you're in a rowboat with people. You change, they gotta change. They gotta move. They don't wanna move.

Tim Ferriss 51:26 [laughs]

George Mumford 51:29 Or they got you in a box and now you're out of the box, so now they gotta refigure who you are. They're gonna keep you in a box and get mad at you. So for whatever reason, but it always comes down to discomfort, being uncomfortable. The nervous system is wired this way. If it's pleasant, we move, approach. If it's unpleasant, we avoid. And if it's neither, with indifference, we space out. It's what the nervous system does. So when you impute meaning onto something and say, "It's gonna be great, even though it's uncomfortable, I know on the other side is this is the only way out, it's true," then once I commit to that and have the experience of going through it and then coming to a- another level of grace, of ease, of peace, then I continue to do that. That's what I talk about, the superpower of trust. You need trust, but when you can verify it through insight, through information, through experience, now it goes from confidence to conviction. And then now you, you get on a, a beneficial cycle where things keep getting... The rich get richer because you know that if you learn and, and you achieve, it's gonna generate enthusiasm and you're gonna wanna learn more. You're gonna wanna commit to it 'cause you know that, and this is what the elites do, they see those things as challenges. Oh, this is great. This is an opportunity for me to express myself. That mindset is the growth mindset, but it's also pursuing excellence.

Tim Ferriss 52:53 Let's talk about growth and excellence, and I'd love to frame it through a contrast that I've read you make, and you've written about this and, and there, there are examples of this on, uh, GeorgeMumford.com. The or a barrier breakthrough versus the improvement trap. Could you explain for people what these two things are?

George Mumford 53:17 Incremental improvements means you're just improving, but when you have a paradigm shift, then it's totally different 'cause when you're improving something, okay, I'm gonna improve this shift, I'm gonna do it. So that can be a trap. It can be helpful, but it can be a trap because you're just looking to improve instead of looking to break out. As Stephen Covey says, "Every breakthrough is a break with." So you, you have to change the paradigm. So you have to change how you see yourself. So if you keep... So Michael Jordan's, what did he say when he hit the winning shot against Georgetown in the NCAAs? He said, "I went from Mike Jordan to Michael Jordan."

Tim Ferriss 53:53 [laughs]

George Mumford 53:56 See what I'm saying? So he had a paradigm shift and realized, "Okay, I'm great," not I'm gonna be great or I can be great. I'm a great player. I see myself as Michael Jordan, capable of doing everything. When you have a breakthrough, that means you're changing how you see things, and when you change how you see things, then things change. So when you change how you see things, the things you look at change. The constant improvement is great to have improvement, but a breakout has to do with you could be improving and be in a little pond- And it's good for the little prime, but to really break out, to really go beyond that, it's you have to just have courageous initiative. It's nice I can hit singles all day. I'm playing baseball, just get a single. But you wanna be able to not only hit a single, but hit, hit whatever the heck you want. Hit home runs, hit, hit whatever. So I would say the vision of possibility is bigger in one versus the other, where it's keeping you playing small and it's comfortable versus being big and having a breakout.

Tim Ferriss 54:56 Right, having that complete kinda shift of perspective, uh, in, uh-

George Mumford 55:01 Yes

Tim Ferriss 55:01 ... and it sounds like particularly as, as you mention in the Mike Jordan to Michael Jordan, it's a shift in how one views themselves. Are there any other examples that you can think of, things you've seen in athletes or others that have really stuck in your mind, that stand out in your memory? Other breakthroughs or breakouts like this where, not over a long period of time but in an instant or in a single game, in a single practice, maybe over a, a week or a month, you see a, a real quantum leap in someone you've worked with.

George Mumford 55:40 One of the athletes I worked with at Boston College, name is Troy Bell, and he's a point guard. I think he holds the record in BC for the most points scored. Troy, as a sophomore, we were playing in the Big East. He, he got Big East Player of the Year. He was co-player of the year with Murphy from Notre Dame. His junior year, it was kinda okie-doke. Then he came back in his senior year, and he won player of the year outright. And as a matter of fact, you saw where his game was going. He was increasing, and then it just took off. In January in his senior year, he just went to a whole other level with his play, so much so that Sports Illustrated came and interviewed him. When they told me, he says, "Well, you know, working with George and, you know, just the mental game is all of that stuff that we were working on. All of a sudden, it just took off." In a linear perspective, you say one plus one equals two. But in a nonlinear or right brain, if you're left-- right-handed, one plus one equals six. You get a jump. So that happened with Troy. The team he was playing on, Boston College Eagles, Al Skinner's team, who was my roommate from college, one year he was six and 21, six wins, 21 losses. The next year, the team was 11 and 19, and out of those 19 losses, 12 losses came in a row when they lost in the last possession of the game. The next year, that same team, which you played 16 games in the league. So Big East, you play 16 games. That first year when they were 11 and 19, they won three games and lost 13. The next year, they won 13 games and lost three, so they was 27 and five. It kept going, and then it just t- took off. I could say the same thing-

Tim Ferriss 57:34 Took off

George Mumford 57:34 ... same thing about the, the Bulls, you know, when they won 72 games. You know, they struggled. They go through it. Then you take off. You chip away at it, but because slow motion gets you there quicker or it's like the tortoise and the hare, you just keep doing what's in front of you. You, you stay in-- locked in. You stay en- enthusiastic. You do what you have to do, then something happens. It happens a lot of the time. You just break out. You have a breakout because you're not just improving, you're looking, and these guys had vision. So that team that was 27 and five, that year we had what they call a European trip. So we're in the gym in August before they go, and I'm hanging around, I'm listening, and the guys are saying, "You know, we've been getting beat by 40 by all these teams. Any team that comes in here this year, we gonna beat them by 20." That's self-image. That's a shift in consciousness.

Tim Ferriss 58:28 Right, and it's very concrete too, very specific.

George Mumford 58:31 Yeah, and you know what their record was that year? 17 and 0, and they won by 22 and a half points.

Tim Ferriss 58:37 I'd be curious to know is since you've sort of tracked yourself and your sort of development over a long period of time, if you look back at the younger George, say, in the first year of working with high-level athletes, is there any advice that you would give him now, just with the benefit of hindsight?

George Mumford 59:00 I would tell him that focus on self-observation, teaching them how to observe their experience in a uncritical way, where they can start to see, okay, if I'm shooting free throws, let's just talk about shooting free throws.

Tim Ferriss 59:14 Mm-hmm.

George Mumford 59:15 When I go up and I shoot a free throw, I wanna be able to observe of what happened. You know, I missed a free throw. A lot of times people say, "Shoot, I missed a free throw." I want them to be able to say, "Okay," so I'm observing it. So when I shot the free throw, what did I notice that was off? Did I use my feet? Did I keep my elbow in? Did I stick it? And it's just a matter of like, okay, so what do I need to change? Okay, I need to stick it next time. If you go back to Michael Jordan playing in 1998 against the Utah Jazz, in the fourth quarter, he was shooting shots, and they were short.

Tim Ferriss 59:48 Yeah.

George Mumford 59:49 So what adjustment did he make? So when he shot the shot, he stuck it.

Tim Ferriss 59:54 Can you explain sticking it to people visually, right?

George Mumford 59:56 Yes, yeah.

Tim Ferriss 59:56 That's more extension through the wrist.

George Mumford 59:58 Y- yeah, but it's, it's really more like sticking it like this, like, like follow through.

Tim Ferriss 1:00:02 Follow through. Mm-hmm.

George Mumford 1:00:03 Right? What he did was he made the adjustment. My shot is short, so to get it up, I have to get it up and stick it. So you see in real time he'll make an adjustment, but how does that work? So I talk about the four As. So the four As have to do with awareness, the kind of awareness that you could just notice, you know, this uncritical, it's mindfulness. You just notice like mirror mind. You, you're aware of what happened. Okay, I'm shooting my jump shot, and it's flat. Then the acceptance of it. That's the har- challenging part because sometimes you say, "Oh man, you know, I just rushed it," or whatever. You're not taking responsibility for it and saying, "Yeah, I don't like it. It sucks. It feels bad." But once I embrace it and say, "This is what happened. This is... Know the truth and the truth shall make you free." You know that it was short, and then what's the compassionate action? Compassionate action is what? Okay, what do I need to do to fix it? I need to stick it. That's all I need to do is just follow through.

Tim Ferriss 1:01:02 Mm-hmm.

George Mumford 1:01:02 Then the assessment afterwards is-

Tim Ferriss 1:01:05 Mm-hmm

George Mumford 1:01:05 ... so there's awareness; acceptance, which is the big challenging thing; action, compassionate action; and assessment, what worked, what didn't work? And then, then go back to it. So if you're practicing meditation and you're sitting and you notice that you're sitting but your mind keeps thinking about... Let's do what happens to a lot of people. I'm listening to a song on the radio, like, let's say Start Me Up by Mick Jag or whatever, and you hear it on the radio, and you're in your meditation, and then, "Start me up," and it keeps going, and the more you try to avoid it, it keeps staying there. Then you go through the sitting and you say, "Well, the whole time I was struggling with this damn song. I couldn't get rid of it." The awareness is this song or this... It could be a, a thought pattern or whatever, or could be something we're worried about, like somebody's sick and we're worried about how the operation went or something like that. So the instructions are when you get distracted, just go back to your breath or be with the body. But you spend all the time doing that, but it's a struggle and it's hard to do it. The awareness of that, then the acceptance is, "Yeah, I couldn't do it." But then the compassionate action is, "Okay, so George, what do you do?" Here's what I teach. So if this becomes so much of a distraction, instead of fighting it, just turn your attention towards it.

Tim Ferriss 1:02:27 Mm-hmm.

George Mumford 1:02:28 And that becomes the object.

Tim Ferriss 1:02:30 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

George Mumford 1:02:30 What is this? And so by not resisting it, by looking at it, then you notice, well, what is it? What does it feel like? You know, this song, you know, what does it feel like in my body? What is it? Why is it this song is staying there? Maybe there's something about Start Me Up or Jimi Hendrix, who knows? [laughs] You know? Or, you know, the Power of Love. Well, it could be whatever it is, but then we look at it, but we just notice that it's just thinking, and we just, instead of resisting it, we, we turn attention to it and we open it up. Okay, what is this? And you just let it be there, the acceptance, and then by doing that, you notice that you'll calm down.

Tim Ferriss 1:03:07 Mm-hmm.

George Mumford 1:03:08 And then because all you're doing is taking this, instead of being attached to this object, you just take whatever comes up. Okay, this is here. Let, let's just go with that. Notice the song. You just focus on that, and you will still get concentrated 'cause you're focused on one thing.

Tim Ferriss 1:03:24 Mm-hmm.

George Mumford 1:03:25 So that's where, you know, the awareness, the acceptance. But if I'm going through this every day for five days in a row, if it's not that, it's something else and I'm struggling, I just can't stay on the object, what I'm gonna do is say, "I can't do this. This is not for me. I'm not able to do it." Instead of saying no, it's just noticing what's happening. You're distracted, and it's, instead of fighting it, just let it become your object of awareness. This is part of the process, and then when you do that, then you're gonna get to this place of calm, then you can let go, and then you can just come back-

Tim Ferriss 1:03:55 Mm

George Mumford 1:03:55 ... to wherever you are. But you have to be aware of it. You have to accept that, yeah, it's happening and I'm, I suck as a meditator. That's all judgment. It's awareness without being critical or without judgment. And then our compassionate action is just notice, okay, let's see where the mind takes us, 'cause maybe the mind is telling us something, and you focus on that. Then you come back, and then you notice that there's more ease. And so then your assessment of it is what worked, what didn't work, what did you change? So now you have that ability. So it could be a sound. It could be a ache in your body. Now you have the same thing, so you're aware of your breathing, but there's this twisting, burning, and maybe it's anxiety, and you have this tightness in your chest, and you're like this. So instead of avoiding that, you open to it. You focus on that and say, "What is this? And can I open and can I just breathe and just let it be there? What's the sensation?" Okay, it's, it's tightness, but then at some point it's gonna change. It's gonna dissipate 'cause I'm not fighting it, then I can move on. So that's what I mean by the four As.

Tim Ferriss 1:05:01 Yeah, I like it. I like the four As and the, the, you know, the examples that you gave of turning, let's just say, what people might consider a problem into the object makes me think of this... It's basically a fortune cookie that I was given at one point to carry in my wallet or that I ended up carrying in my wallet, and it said, "That which hinders your task is your task." And [laughs] uh, I think it's, it's a very helpful framework, this four As, especially for beginning meditators because it's so easy without that type of perspective to become very frustrated and to beat yourself up.

George Mumford 1:05:41 Mm-hmm.

Tim Ferriss 1:05:41 It's a very valuable, very valuable approach, so thank you for that.

George Mumford 1:05:45 Yeah. So can I give you an example, a story that illustrates that?

Tim Ferriss 1:05:48 Yes, please. Great.

George Mumford 1:05:49 Okay. So I was working in this prison, Norfolk County House of Correction. Actually, the little tidbit is there, that's where Malcolm X did his time, in that prison. I actually saw his jacket, you know-

Tim Ferriss 1:06:00 Wow

George Mumford 1:06:01 ... his record. So I used to work in there, and so I go in there to teach this meditation class or this meditation yoga class, but meditation class, and I have all these copious notes. This is when I was really new, [laughs] and I was gonna give them a sermon or a lecture or Dharma talk, whatever you wanna call it. It's gonna be awesome. I got all these notes in there and everything. So, and this also goes into what Bruce Lee talks about, be like water. I go in there, and then when I get in the class, I realize that out of 32 students, 28 of them are Spanish-speaking only. [laughs]

Tim Ferriss 1:06:35 [laughs]

George Mumford 1:06:37 So, so the awareness, the acceptance Okay, what's the compassionate action? Okay, I gotta interpret it. I gotta make this shit real simple. I gotta just, just give them the basic things. Breathe in, breathe out [laughs] , whatever. You know, it's something about being in the present and what that looks like.

Tim Ferriss 1:06:53 [laughs]

George Mumford 1:06:54 And that's when all them notes went out the window.

Tim Ferriss 1:06:57 Yeah. Totally.

George Mumford 1:06:57 And I just had to just be like, well, just, okay, what is, what is here? How can I work with it? Just sur- I wouldn't say surrender, I'd say embrace it, and then generate the hope. How, what can I do? How can I still... I have to keep it simple, but I can just show up and do things. And so that applies, and then we can fast-forward to g- you like stories, I'll give you another story.

Tim Ferriss 1:07:18 Well, one second. How did that talk turn out?

George Mumford 1:07:21 How did it turn out? It turned out great.

Tim Ferriss 1:07:23 Yeah.

George Mumford 1:07:23 'Cause they got something and I got something.

Tim Ferriss 1:07:25 Yeah.

George Mumford 1:07:26 And I realized that what it told me was, especially working in prison, you have no idea what the hell's gonna happen.

Tim Ferriss 1:07:32 [laughs]

George Mumford 1:07:32 You could be doing a class, and then the, then the alarm goes off and everybody gets locked down.

Tim Ferriss 1:07:37 Right. Right.

George Mumford 1:07:39 So how did it go? It went great because I gave them what they could hear. I met them where they were, but the main thing was I wasn't rigid. I wasn't attached to my wanting to force something on them.

Tim Ferriss 1:07:52 Right.

George Mumford 1:07:52 I said, "Okay, they're not gonna be able to hear this, so what can I do? How can I be of service?" And so I just went right into it. But I laugh because I said all that preparation, and it just kinda goes.

Tim Ferriss 1:08:03 [laughs]

George Mumford 1:08:03 And so that's the same thing. So whatever happens, can we say yes to it?

Tim Ferriss 1:08:07 Mm-hmm.

George Mumford 1:08:07 Can we embrace it and then j- generate the hope or say, "Okay, what can we do? What's the next play?"

Tim Ferriss 1:08:13 Mm-hmm.

George Mumford 1:08:13 This is an opportunity for us to figure out what we need to do, and maybe if we don't know, well, just start with just sitting [laughs] and just being present with what's going on. I had a friend of mine, his name is Bo Lozoff. He passed away, but he, he was doing a thing in prison, and he decided to bring the men and the women together. And when he did that, it was t- utter chaos.

Tim Ferriss 1:08:33 [laughs]

George Mumford 1:08:34 And he was there, and you know what he did?

Tim Ferriss 1:08:36 What'd he do?

George Mumford 1:08:37 He sat down and meditated right in the middle of them, and they all got quiet.

Tim Ferriss 1:08:40 [laughs]

George Mumford 1:08:42 He had no idea what the hell to do [laughs] , so he said, "I'm just gonna sit and think about it, you know, see what happens." And they all looked at him and said, "Well, how could he do that?"

Tim Ferriss 1:08:49 [laughs] And they all got up.

George Mumford 1:08:51 So you see what I'm saying? So there's-

Tim Ferriss 1:08:53 Yeah

George Mumford 1:08:53 ... and I'm guaranteeing you, if you think about your experience, or even the listeners, if you think about a time when you were able to just say, "Okay, this is what it is. What can I do? How can I relate to it?"

Tim Ferriss 1:09:02 Yeah.

George Mumford 1:09:02 That's what it is. So awareness, acceptance. Once you accept it, then you can do something about it, so you're not in denial or you're not blaming somebody. You're saying, "Okay, this is what it is. How can I do about it?" So those four As can apply anytime, anywhere.

Tim Ferriss 1:09:17 That's a great story. What are you most excited about these days personally?

George Mumford 1:09:22 Personally, I'm excited about the fact that, that I get to do what I was put here to do and be of service and just show up. I mean, it's a journey of discovery where I have no idea what's gonna happen with COVID and, and all the other things. My job is just to sh- like I said, to show up and to be myself, which in my case is I wanna be loving, I wanna be compassionate, but I wanna be helpful. To show up, be myself, and have fun is like, okay, so I had to be like wise, so whatever is coming, can I embrace it and create a container to hold it and at the same time generate, "Okay, how can I relate to this in a way that inspires, motivates, moves, is helpful?"

Tim Ferriss 1:10:04 Yeah. It is, uh, there's certainly a world of uncertainty right now. It's a ripe opportunity for practicing a lot of what you discuss.

George Mumford 1:10:13 Yeah.

Tim Ferriss 1:10:13 And it's really highlighted how much is outside of our control.

George Mumford 1:10:17 Yes. But at the same time, Hans Selye, the guy, the, the scientist that came up with the stress of life and the stress reaction and all, all of that, it's his belief and it's also my belief that when the crisis or when there's a challenge, that's when our latent abilities express themselves. It's like seeing everything, so we know this, that how you can predict how somebody does in a job, three things. What they call positive genius or optimism and hope. Second thing is social support, and the third thing is seeing a crisis as a challenge. And so when we can do that, now we generate, we stimulate these latent abilities. Oh, this is great. This is an opportunity to show up and to really be helpful. So that's what I'm excited about, is it really doesn't matter what happens on some level. What matters is can I create space between stimulus and response, and in that space, can I be loving? Can I be compassionate? Can I be wise? Can I make wise choices? And can I live according to what my core values are? Love, compassion, connection, that sort of thing. And that no matter what happens, I need to train myself so I can keep showing up. But the good news is because I share, I give away what I have, I get more of it. And if I wanna learn something, I teach it.

Tim Ferriss 1:11:38 Mm. George, I wanna commend you for the work you do in the world and also the fact that you share what you've learned and your story and the tools, not just with the celebrities that are known worldwide, but that you've also dedicated a substantial part of your life to at-risk populations, people who are looking for new ways to change and new chapters and transitions into a better way of being. And I just think that's really a, a manifestation of love in you, and it's beautiful to witness that and to know that there are people like you offering that. So I just wanna thank you.

George Mumford 1:12:23 Thank you, and it's people like you that, that give me a opportunity to share my experience, strength, [laughs] and hope. And it's also wonderful because I know the impact you've been having on folks and continue to have, so I wanna say ditto to you. But I, I'm, I'm just happy, man. I'm just happy that, that I can Just be here and have this wonderful conversation about how do we live in a solution, not in a problem?

Tim Ferriss 1:12:47 Yes.

George Mumford 1:12:47 And that how do we access the fact that we are already perfect, whole, and complete in terms of being a masterpiece or a divine spark? We just don't know it or we don't show it.

Tim Ferriss 1:12:57 I think that is, that is an excellent piece to anchor on as we, as we come to a close. George, is there anything else that you would like to say? Any question you'd like to pose to the audience or request you'd like to make of people listening before we wrap up?

George Mumford 1:13:13 Yes. My wish for everyone is for everyone to really understand they have a masterpiece and how to know ourselves so we can be ourselves, so we-

Tim Ferriss 1:13:22 Mm-hmm

George Mumford 1:13:22 ... can express ourselves, so we can share ourselves. So the sharing is really important and just understanding that we have a masterpiece. And I have my book, I have my online course, I have my YouTube channel, and you have all sorts of resources. My hope is that we all understand that we have to take personal responsibility. It's an inner game. And if we don't like what we are experiencing, we can change it, but we have to be willing, and also not letting blame or denial prevent us from taking responsibility and being able to, to share the focus on the solution. So if we're gonna criticize somebody, it's one thing to say, "I don't like this." It's another thing to say it and then give them an option that's helpful.

Tim Ferriss 1:14:09 Very different. Worlds of difference, and that goes for criticizing other people or criticizing yourself. It applies in so many ways. George, people can find you at GeorgeMumford.com, certainly on Instagram. We'll link to all these things in the show notes as well. @George.Mumford, Twitter, @GTMumford, and they can find The Mindful Athlete Course certainly on your website. Your book is The Mindful Athlete, subtitle Secrets to Pure Performance. And to everyone listening, we'll link to everything that we've discussed, uh, including the YouTube channel and so on in the show notes at Tim.blog/podcast as per always. And George, thank you so much for taking the time.

George Mumford 1:14:51 Thank you. I appreciate you.

Tim Ferriss 1:14:53 And to everybody listening, until next time, thank you for tuning in. [upbeat music] Hey, guys. This is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is 5-Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And 5-Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered, it could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up [laughs] in the, uh, the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to FourHourWorkWeek.com. That's FourHourWorkWeek.com all spelled out, and just drop in your email, and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Tonal, that's T-O-N-A-L. Tonal is the world's most intelligent home gym and personal trainer. That's the tagline from their website, folks. So it gives you the one-sentence summary. By eliminating traditional metal weights, Tonal can deliver 200 pounds of resistance in a device smaller than a flat-screen TV. It mounts right on your wall with no floor space required. I've had one for a few months now after a number of close friends recommended Tonal to me, and it allows me to do things that I would normally need a huge gym for, like cable chop and lift or rotational exercises, and it allows me to do other things that are nearly impossible otherwise, like eccentric loading, which I'll talk about again later. Tonal is precision engineered and designed to be the world's most advanced strength studio and personal trainer. It uses breakthrough technology like adaptive digital weights and AI learning together with the best experts in resistance training so you can get stronger faster. One of my friends who used to be a competitive skier, very high-level competitive skier, has doubled his strength in many exercises over a period of months. So what are these adaptive digital weights? Tonal's patented digital weight system makes thousands of calculations a second to deliver you a smooth weightlifting experience using their advanced electronic motor technology. And a lot of the buttons are built right into the handles themselves, into the grips. So you don't need to move around, and it is extremely easy to use. Tonal lets you adjust the weight in one-pound increments, and you can do it on the fly, something that was never possible with traditional dumbbells. It's easy to dial weights up and down with just the touch of a button. Tonal also has built-in dynamic weight modes like chains, eccentric, and their patent-pending Smart Flex technology, so you can experiment with more ways to get stronger faster without the hassle of extra equipment like chains and bands. The eccentrics, which I mentioned, means that you can set a mode that allows you to, say, just as an example, bicep curl 15 pounds up and then lower automatically 20, 25 pounds down. And it is incredible how much you can get done in just a handful of minutes when you use this type of technology. So check it out. Try Tonal, T-O-N-A-L, the world's smartest home gym, for 30 days in your home. And if you don't love it, you can return it for a full refund. Visit www.tonal.com, T-O-N-A-L.com, and for a limited time, get $100 off of smart accessories when you use promo code Tim21, like I'm ready for my first drink, at checkout. That's www.tonal, T-O-N-A-L, .com, promo code Tim21, T-I-M 21. Tonal, be your strongest. This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. My God, am I in love with Eight Sleep. Good sleep is the ultimate game changer. More than 30% of Americans struggle with sleep, and I'm a member of that sad group. Temperature is one of the main causes of poor sleep, and heat has always been my nemesis. I've suffered for decades tossing and turning, throwing blankets off, putting them back on, and repeating ad nauseam. But now I am falling asleep in record time faster than ever. Why? Because I'm using a simple device called the Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep. It's the easiest and fastest way to sleep at the perfect temperature. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking to offer the most advanced but most user-friendly solution on the market. I polled all of you guys on social media about best tools for sleep, enhancing sleep, and Eight Sleep was by far and away the crowd favorite. I mean, people were just raving fans of this. So I used it, and here we are. Add the Pod Pro Cover to your current mattress and start sleeping as cool as 55 degrees Fahrenheit or as hot as 110 degrees Fahrenheit. It also splits your bed in half so your partner can choose a totally different temperature. My girlfriend runs hot all the time. She doesn't need cooling. She loves the heat. And we can have our own bespoke temperatures on either side, which is exactly what we're doing. Now for me and for many people, the result, Eight Sleep users fall asleep up to 32% faster, reduce sleep interruptions by up to 40%, and get more restful sleep overall. I can personally attest to this because I track it in all sorts of ways. It's the total solution for enhanced recovery so you can take on the next day feeling refreshed. And now, my dear listeners, that's you guys, you can get $250 off of the Pod Pro Cover. That's a lot. Simply go to eightsleep.com/tim or use code Tim. That's eight, all spelled out, E-I-G-H-T, sleep.com/tim or use coupon code Tim, T-I-M. Eightsleep.com/tim for $200 off your Pod Pro Cover.