Jocko Willink — The Scariest Navy SEAL Imaginable…And What He Taught Me | The Tim Ferriss Show

1. 0:00 – 4:37

   Cold open banter and sponsor messages (Wealthfront, 99designs)

   1. TFTim Ferriss0:00

      Microphone check. Jocko, how are you, sir?

   2. JWJocko Willink0:02

      I'm doing pretty good. How are you?

   3. TFTim Ferriss0:04

      Feeling splendid, especially given this, this cocktail of adrenaline that you've been feeding me.

   4. JWJocko Willink0:10

      [laughs]

   5. TFTim Ferriss0:12

      Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question? Now we're sitting at the table. What if I give you the algorithm? I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over a metal endoskeleton. The Tim Ferriss Show.

   6. TFTim Ferriss0:35

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2. 4:37 – 8:40

   Tim’s setup: who Jocko is and why this conversation matters

   1. TFTim Ferriss4:37

      get a free ninety-nine dollar upgrade, go to 99designs.com/tim. That's 99designs.com/tim. Hello, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers, whether they are chess prodigies like Josh Waitzkin, actors and governators like Arnold Schwarzenegger, or anything in between, professional athletes, you name it, I want to talk to them. Because you find that at the very highest level, at the top of the top in each field and across those fields, there are commonalities. And I wanna tease out the morning routines, the habits, the favorite books, and so on that you can apply immediately to your life to level up. And this episode is no exception. This episode was a very intense episode. My guest is someone who very rarely does any interviews, Jocko Willink, J-O-C-K-O. He is a legend in the SEAL community. He's also two hundred and forty pounds or so, two hundred and thirty to two hundred and forty pounds of lean muscle. He would routinely tap out 20 or so Navy SEALs as a workout since he's a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, uh, practitioner at a world-class level and also trains professional MMA fighters in his spare time. But dialing back to the beginning, Jocko grew up in a small New England town, enlisted in the Navy after high school, and spent 20 years in the SEAL teams. During his second tour in Iraq, he led SEAL Task Unit Bruiser in the Battle of Ramadi, which was some of the toughest, most sustained combat in the SEAL teams since Vietnam. Under his leadership, Task Unit Bruiser helped bring stability to Ramadi and became the most highly decorated Special Operations Unit of the entire war in Iraq. Jocko was subsequently awarded the Bronze Star and Silver Star. After that, returning from that deployment, Jocko served as the officer in charge of training for all West Coast SEAL teams, which means he designed and implemented some of the most challenging and realistic combat training in the world. He also spearheaded the development of SEAL leadership training, and p- therefore personally instructed and mentored the next generation of SEAL leaders. In 2010, Jocko retired from the Navy to co-found Echelon Front. That's E-C-H-E-L-O-N. Never knew how to pronounce that. Echelon Front, a leadership and management consulting company which teaches leadership principles learned and proven in combat to help others lead and win. And this is very interesting because you can view combat in many ways as sort of an, an exaggeration of many states and situations that one experiences in other areas of life, including business. Jocko is, last but not least, the author of a brand-new book, Extreme Ownership. That's the title, and we get into what that means. Uh, I am really enjoying this book. Extreme Ownership, subtitle, How U.S. Navy SEALs Lead and Win. I highly encourage you check this book out. Even if you just read the, the intro and chapters 1, 6, and 12, even if you just do that, the book is worth many times the price. So check it out. I highly encourage it. And you can find Jocko at echelonfront.com, E-C-H-E-L-O-N, and also on Twitter. I am helping train him to use Twitter. A lot of these guys [laughs] in the, uh, Navy SEALs and other, uh, uh, divisions of the military do not like to be public-facing, but, uh, Jocko is going to be on Twitter, so @jockowillink, J-O-C-K-O-W-I-L-L-I-N-K. And you can probably also check out a photo of this guy, which you have to see. And as always, you can find all show notes, links to everything we talk about at fourhourworkweek.com/podcast, all spelled out, or you can just go to fourhourworkweek.com and click on Podcast, and you can also find all previous episodes. So without further ado, please enjoy this very intense, very insightful conversation with Jocko Willink. We do get into the weeds, and I implore you, I encourage you to bear with us if we get into a bunch of military specifics because there are gems throughout this conversation. And even if you only take one or two away, it is well worth the time invested. So thank you for listening,

3. 8:40 – 11:56

   Pomegranate white tea, caffeine as a tool, and the origin of “Jocko”

   1. TFTim Ferriss8:40

      and please enjoy. [upbeat music] Okay, we are live at Casa Ferriss. Jocko, welcome to the show.

   2. JWJocko Willink8:48

      Glad to be here.

   3. TFTim Ferriss8:49

      Yeah, thrilled to have you here. And looking at your bio and talking to people who know you, the number of topics we could discuss are, are many and extremely interesting, but I'll start with this tea. What is this, I suppose it's a pinkish-colored liquid that you've been consuming and that, uh, you've shared with me?

   4. JWJocko Willink9:08

      It's a pomegranate white tea, which I believe hits your soul pretty well.

   5. TFTim Ferriss9:15

      [laughs] Well, I was surprised because I expected it to have low caffeine content. I was like, "Sure, I'll try the tea." It sounds like, you know, with the pomegranate, I'm like, "Maybe it would help with my cramps or something." And I'm pretty well lit up for someone who drinks, you know, pu-erh tea, oolong tea, I guess sort of a, a veteran of, of indirect caffeine consumption with, with leaves. I, I've been impressed. How long have you been drinking this?

   6. JWJocko Willink9:40

      I don't-- I forget when I stumbled upon it, but we used to do some desert training back when I was in the SEAL teams, actually when I was running the training on the West Coast. And, uh, I would have to sit through the, the platoons' briefs as they were getting ready to go out in the field and do a field training exercise. And the briefs were about an hour long, and we'd be on three or four hours of sleep a night for a few days. And so at some point, I discovered this stuff, and I would start drinking it when the brief kicked off, and by the time the brief ended, I would have taken copious notes and be ready to get after the platoon commanders that were, uh, trying to give good briefs, and I'd, I'd, I'd get after it.

   7. TFTim Ferriss10:18

      You'd, you'd be fired up for feedback.

   8. JWJocko Willink10:20

      Affirmative.

   9. TFTim Ferriss10:21

      [laughs] Did-- And, uh, you, you mentioned that you don't normally consume caffeine. Is that true?

   10. JWJocko Willink10:27

       I do not normally con-consume caffeine, no.

   11. TFTim Ferriss10:29

       When do you-- What are some examples of when you reserve, uh, or, or when you do consume caffeine? What's the use of caffeine?

   12. JWJocko Willink10:37

       Some kind of long drive.

   13. TFTim Ferriss10:38

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JWJocko Willink10:39

       You know? So, um, you know, e-even my first deployment to Iraq, we did longer patrols in the vehicles, and I would have, you know, uh, right in front of my seat, so sort of hanging in front of my seat, I'd have a, a flashbang grenade and then another flashbang grenade and then a frag grenade, which is the grenade that, you know, kills people, and then another frag grenade, and then the next three pouches were Red Bull, Red Bull, Red Bull. So, you know, if you're going on a long patrol, and I know it might seem strange that you would get tired, but you would, you know? And, and so you crack open a Red Bull and get after it, and that's the kind of occasions I would save the caffeine intake for.

   15. TFTim Ferriss11:14

       What now-- We, we haven't spent too much time together. We've been hanging out, and, uh, you had an iced tea. I had a couple of coffees. And I feel like I've, I've just belligerently, unnecessarily punched my adrenal glands for so many years that the coffee pretty much does nothing to me. But, uh, you're an intense guy, which is meant as a compliment. What are you like on three Red Bulls?

   16. JWJocko Willink11:36

       More Jocko.

   17. TFTim Ferriss11:37

       [laughs] And how did you get the nickname Jocko?

   18. JWJocko Willink11:45

       Uh, actually, my parents gave me that nickname.

   19. TFTim Ferriss11:46

       Oh, they did?

   20. JWJocko Willink11:47

       Yeah. That's, that's, uh, my real name is John, but ever since I was born, I've been called Jocko, so that's what everyone knows me as.

4. 11:56 – 15:40

   From 174 to 230+: weight gain, lifting basics, and the realities of eating to grow

   1. TFTim Ferriss11:56

      Mm-hmm. And, uh, when you, and of course, we're gonna talk a, a lot about your time deployed and, uh, training other, um, other people, but let's take a look at your physique. So, so we were introduced through, uh, Pete Attia.

   2. JWJocko Willink12:14

      Mm-hmm.

   3. TFTim Ferriss12:14

      He's also been on this podcast. Very funny, uh, very smart guy, and he said, "You have to ask Jocko about his weight gain." Now, this is not bad weight gain, because right now you're about how much, would you say?

   4. JWJocko Willink12:26

      230, 235.

   5. TFTim Ferriss12:27

      230. If you were green, you'd be the Hulk. You're a big guy. Uh, and, uh- Very fit, but when you entered the SEALs, how much did you weigh?

   6. JWJocko Willink12:37

      174.

   7. TFTim Ferriss12:38

      174?

   8. JWJocko Willink12:39

      Yeah, yeah.

   9. TFTim Ferriss12:41

      How on earth-

   10. JWJocko Willink12:41

       Well, that's when I, when I started SEAL training, I weighed 174 pounds.

   11. TFTim Ferriss12:45

       And h- h- wha- how did that transformation take place? I mean, was it, was it just an, a growth spurt, or were you facilitating that with, uh, resistance training? How did that come about?

   12. JWJocko Willink12:55

       So I entered SEAL training at 174 pounds, and, you know, everyone's seen what SEAL training is like. It's a lot of pushups, a lot of pull-ups, a lot of dips, running, swimming, obstacle course. Uh, I just ate what they fed us, which is they feed you a lot. And in the course of SEAL training, I put on, I think I graduated 185 pounds. And then once I was done with that and started getting in SEAL platoons, you know, and we all lifted heavy and wanted to be big and strong, and so I lifted heavy and ate a lot. And I think I put on... I was up to 200 my first platoon, and then after that I got up to about 225. And now, depending on what's happening in the, in the fight game and who I'm training with and what they're preparing for, I'll go up to, you know, 240, 245 if I need to, and then come back down once, you know, those events are over. So in other words, I'll be, if I'm training a guy that's a heavyweight or, or fighting a heavyweight, then I'll put on some weight so I can simulate that better.

   13. TFTim Ferriss13:50

       What type of training would you suggest for people? What type of regimen? What, uh, what might a workout or a week look like for someone who wants to, let's just say a male, 25 years old, who wants to add, uh, lean mass? What would you-

   14. JWJocko Willink14:05

       Deadlift and squat.

   15. TFTim Ferriss14:06

       Deadlift and squat?

   16. JWJocko Willink14:07

       Yeah. I mean, I think-

   17. TFTim Ferriss14:07

       Yeah

   18. JWJocko Willink14:07

       ... that's the universal answer, right?

   19. TFTim Ferriss14:09

       Yeah.

   20. JWJocko Willink14:09

       Does anyone say anything different when you ask that question?

   21. TFTim Ferriss14:11

       [laughs] I don't ask, I, I don't ask many people, but you have, you have such an incredible range of weight over that period of time that I had to ask. I mean, I think that is the right answer. Um, I think the eating is a lot harder than the training in some respects, at least for me. I mean, I got up to... I'm, I'm walking around about 175 right now. But I did, to beat a friend in a bet, which didn't even involve money, so I'm not sure why I subjugated myself to this or subjected myself to this, but, uh, I got up to, like, 215.

   22. JWJocko Willink14:39

       Mm.

   23. TFTim Ferriss14:40

       Uh, the eating was the harder component.

   24. JWJocko Willink14:43

       I remember being on a deployment on a ship, and the, so the food on the ship is not good. You know, you're on a six-month deployment on a ship, and I was a SEAL, and when you're on a ship as a SEAL, you're not, you don't have, you don't have a job other than just to work out. This is especially, you know, in the '90s, so it was a totally different world. The dry years, because there was no war going on.

   25. TFTim Ferriss15:02

       Mm.

   26. JWJocko Willink15:02

       And I remember, you know, we were all just trying to get huge. And I remember getting, uh, plates full of Chicken McNuggets or whatever brand they'd serve in the Navy, and I would just be sitting there at a table, you know, for 40 minutes after chow was done being served, and I'm just looking at these chicken nuggets and hating them and putting them in my mouth and forcing them down in order to gain weight.

   27. TFTim Ferriss15:25

       [laughs]

   28. JWJocko Willink15:25

       So yeah.

   29. TFTim Ferriss15:26

       [laughs]

   30. JWJocko Willink15:28

       It's stupid.
5. 15:40 – 22:06

   Finding jiu-jitsu: early exposure, getting humbled, and building a gym community

   1. TFTim Ferriss15:40

      Uh, l- let's talk about, um, the MMA, and then we're gonna come back to military. When did you first get exposed to jujitsu or, uh, martial arts?

   2. JWJocko Willink15:52

      So I'm on my first deployment, 1992 or 1993, and I'm in Guam. And there's an old SEAL master chief named Steve Bailey, and he was kinda known as a badass. In fact, he was known as a badass, and the reason he was known as a badass is 'cause he was a badass. And so this is pre-UFC. No one knows anything. And he has been training for a year or something with the Gracies up in Torrance. And he took a bunch of us new guys and said, "Hey, does anyone wanna learn how to fight?" And of course, absolutely wanna learn how to fight, myself and a couple of the guys. And, uh, you know, he was like a high-level white belt, maybe even a medium-level white belt, but it's 1993. You know?

   3. TFTim Ferriss16:39

      Right.

   4. JWJocko Willink16:39

      No one knows anything.

   5. TFTim Ferriss16:40

      All new.

   6. JWJocko Willink16:41

      So y- you know, he taught us, you know, the rear naked choke, the arm lock, how to escape the mount, and I, possibly an Americana.

   7. TFTim Ferriss16:49

      Yeah.

   8. JWJocko Willink16:50

      And-

   9. TFTim Ferriss16:50

      Posturing on the chest into-

   10. JWJocko Willink16:52

       Right

   11. TFTim Ferriss16:52

       ... straight arm lock

   12. JWJocko Willink16:53

       ... and so with those moves, you know, and there's a lot of, you know, being in the SEAL teams, you're constantly, uh, I mean, it's a, it's an environment where there's lots of escalations-

   13. TFTim Ferriss17:03

       [laughs]

   14. JWJocko Willink17:04

       ... you know, in a platoon, and so you're constantly scrapping and wrestling and fighting and, you know, uh, that's part of it. And so, but with these basic ma- maneuvers that I learned, I could do well, you know? And it was, it was badass. So that's when I started it, and then I, you know, the w- I didn't really see the, didn't really have the vision, you know? I thought that it was a finite-

   15. TFTim Ferriss17:22

       You couldn't see where it would go

   16. JWJocko Willink17:23

       ... I thought it was a finite thing.

   17. TFTim Ferriss17:25

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JWJocko Willink17:26

       I know these seven moves. Everyone that's stepped up to me now, I've been able to handle. I'm good. I'm, I, you know, I'm good.

   19. TFTim Ferriss17:35

       Right.

   20. JWJocko Willink17:35

       And it wasn't until one of my other buddies, uh, who was a SEAL, who was in that initial pack with me, um, a guy by the name of Jeff Higgs, and he had kind of, he had gotten out of the SEAL teams, and he had just dedicated himself to training jujitsu. And one day he came to my house, and you know, we were even when we were both idiots, right?

   21. TFTim Ferriss17:53

       [laughs]

   22. JWJocko Willink17:54

       And then he came to my house one day and he says, "Hey, you wanna train?" And I said, "Well, yeah, absolutely." So we went over in the grass across the street from my house. And you know, he, he had just gotten his purple belt. So you can imagine a purple belt in 1995.

   23. TFTim Ferriss18:06

       Yeah.

   24. JWJocko Willink18:06

       I mean-

   25. TFTim Ferriss18:07

       Unusual

   26. JWJocko Willink18:07

       ... you know, he was just completely beyond, you know, anything I knew. He tapped me out 1,000 times. And I said, "Hey, where, where are you training? Give me a place." And that was it. Went down the next day and signed up for unlimited classes, and I took three classes a day until the present time.

   27. TFTim Ferriss18:22

       Three classes a day?

   28. JWJocko Willink18:23

       Yeah. I mean, I would just go during lunch. I'd go to the ad- the beginner class. I'd go to the advanced class. I would just get after it.

   29. TFTim Ferriss18:30

       [laughs] And, uh, who was he training with? Do you recall who he was training with?

   30. JWJocko Willink18:33

       Fabio Santos.
6. 22:06 – 29:48

   Why he joined the military and what BUD/S is really selecting for

   1. TFTim Ferriss22:06

      you were deployed, um, I, I can see how that would be infinitely complex potentially, you know, depending on, on how sideways things go. How did you become a SEAL? What's, what's the story of you becoming a SEAL?

   2. JWJocko Willink22:21

      Well, I grew up in New England, and I actually grew up in a little town in the sticks of New England, and I was a kind of a rebellious kid. In fact, I was a pretty significantly re- rebellious kid. And, and I know it seems counterintuitive, but when you grow up in New England, um, one of the most rebellious things that a human being can do is join the military. [laughs]

   3. TFTim Ferriss22:41

      Right.

   4. JWJocko Willink22:41

      And almost the, the ultra-rebellious thing you could do, 'cause, you know, it's very, uh, you know, I grew up with a bunch of hippies. You know-

   5. TFTim Ferriss22:49

      Yeah, sure

   6. JWJocko Willink22:50

      ... the kids were hippies. They were deadheads. They were smoking pot, and I was not into that. And I was... So, so they thought they were rebellious because they were smoking pot and doing acid-

   7. TFTim Ferriss23:00

      Right

   8. JWJocko Willink23:00

      ... and whatnot. And, uh, I don't know, you tell me who was more rebellious, 'cause-

   9. TFTim Ferriss23:04

      Yeah

   10. JWJocko Willink23:04

       ... I ended up becoming a commando for my whole life. [laughs]

   11. TFTim Ferriss23:07

       I think the, the, the sort of pot and hacky sack scene, I've spent a lot of time in Vermont and New Hampshire. That-

   12. JWJocko Willink23:11

       Exactly

   13. TFTim Ferriss23:11

       ... that seems kinda par for the course.

   14. JWJocko Willink23:13

       Exactly.

   15. TFTim Ferriss23:13

       It's like, uh, [laughs] sort of conformist rebellion. Uh, but the, uh, a- and what was the path that you took then? So was, uh, at, at what point did you enlist?

   16. JWJocko Willink23:26

       So I actually, uh, 1989, and Panama happened. The invasion of Panama happened, and four SEALs were killed there. And when I saw that in the paper, I was, I guess the word would be ashamed that I was not there. I, you know, the Vietnam War was over, so we weren't seeing headlines all the time, and all of a sudden there's guys that were dying for the, for, for our country, and I was not there. And right after that, I went down to the recruiting station and said I wanted to be a SEAL.

   17. TFTim Ferriss24:00

       And what happens after that?

   18. JWJocko Willink24:03

       So then, y- you know, I went to boot camp, which is Navy boot camp, got done with boot camp.

   19. TFTim Ferriss24:08

       And is, b- boot camp is separate from BUD/S?

   20. JWJocko Willink24:09

       It is, it is separate. And then you go to a school where you learn a Navy trade, and then you start BUD/S. So started BUD/S in, I think it was April of 1991. So this was right after the Gulf War.

   21. TFTim Ferriss24:22

       Mm.

   22. JWJocko Willink24:23

       So from my perspective, leading up to the Gulf War, there, you know, there were some reports, I remember hearing them on the news. They were saying there's gonna be 40,000 casualties in the first 24 hours. I don't know if you remember that, but I remember that.

   23. TFTim Ferriss24:34

       I don't remember that.

   24. JWJocko Willink24:35

       I remember that 'cause I was in the military, and I was going to SEAL training. So-

   25. TFTim Ferriss24:38

       I was in China when I saw the announcement on television

   26. JWJocko Willink24:41

       ... so, so here I am thinking, "Okay, this is gonna be... I'm gonna get some, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to war. You know, all these guys are gonna get hurt and injured, killed, and I'm gonna go to war." And the war kicks off, and 72 hours later it's over, and I hadn't even started SEAL training yet. So- I was, you know, pretty bummed out. I know that sounds crazy, but, you know, I was pretty bummed out because that's what I wanted to do with my life was be in combat and be some kind of warrior, and now the chance had just dissipated in 72 hours.

   27. TFTim Ferriss25:11

       Mm.

   28. JWJocko Willink25:13

       Uh, but, you know, it was the reality of what was happening, so went to SEAL training, went through, and went over to SEAL Team One.

   29. TFTim Ferriss25:20

       And in, let's say boot camp, just for people listening and for myself quite, quite frankly, who are not familiar with what happens in these different phases, does, does, uh, is the obje- uh, what is the objective of boot camp in, in the, in, in, uh-

   30. JWJocko Willink25:35

       This is-
7. 29:48 – 39:13

   Mental toughness roots—and entering the reality of Ramadi

   1. TFTim Ferriss29:48

      Yeah. We'll come back to the training 'cause I just, I, I loved talking about, you know, any types of commonalities or patterns that you've spotted in a couple of different areas. But, um, gonna ask you about the bottle, the, the Battle of Ramadi, but I, I want to first ask, where did you get this mental toughness? So this, this not thinking of quitting even if it killed you. Was that developed through athletics as a kid, through something else? Is, is your entire family like that? I mean, uh, where did that, where did that come from? Where did that drive and, and, uh, stick-to-it-iveness come from?

   2. JWJocko Willink30:24

      I, I'm not 100% sure. Um, some of it, you know, I, I remember, you know, my dad was definitely, "You're not allowed to quit at anything ever." So that leaves a mark, right?

   3. TFTim Ferriss30:35

      Sure.

   4. JWJocko Willink30:36

      Uh, also, I think that, you know, I grew up and I, I started listening to, you know, hardcore music, and I had a hardcore attitude. And so I think that growing up under that influence, you know, that and watching war movies and, you know, a, a product of, of that-

   5. TFTim Ferriss30:53

      Mm-hmm

   6. JWJocko Willink30:53

      ... you know, of that influence, of those mantras that you'd hear in some hardcore song that's about, you know, getting after it.

   7. TFTim Ferriss31:00

      Yeah.

   8. JWJocko Willink31:00

      And I think that that left a mark as well.

   9. TFTim Ferriss31:03

      Mm-hmm. Could you describe the Battle of Ramadi, uh, and, uh, explain what that is for people who may not even recognize the name Ramadi?

   10. JWJocko Willink31:14

       So the Battle of Ramadi, so Ramadi is a city in western Iraq in a state or a province called Al Anbar province, which is the largest province in Iraq, and Ramadi is the capital city.

   11. TFTim Ferriss31:28

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JWJocko Willink31:28

       And the Battle of Ramadi that, that I fought in was in 2006, and at that time, most of the, or many of the insurgents had been pushed out of Baghdad. Many of them had been pushed out of Fallujah because the Marine Corps did a very, uh, substantial effort through Fallujah and cleared it out, and a lot of those enemy had gone to Ramadi. So in the summer of 2006, the epicenter of the insurgency was in Ramadi, and so that's where my SEAL task unit deployed to, and that's where we fought.

   13. TFTim Ferriss32:03

       How long were you there?

   14. JWJocko Willink32:04

       We were there for six months.

   15. TFTim Ferriss32:05

       For six months. How would you, how would you describe that experience to people? And I know that's a very broad question, but for, for, for lack of a better way to, to approach it, because I mean, we can, we can really peel back the layers. But when people ask you, "What was that like?" how do you answer that?

   16. JWJocko Willink32:25

       Well, for one thing, it was my second deployment to Iraq. So my first deployment to Iraq was al- completely different in that the insurgency hadn't been really truly established yet, and we as a country, this is 2003, 2004, and so we were doing very well, you know. At least everyone thought we were. And we were winning. And, you know, I always talk about that deployment like we were rock stars, 'cause we'd, you know, 1:00 in the morning we'd drive out of the gate and go capture a bad guy and bring him back at 3:00 in the morning, and it was like we were rock stars, you know? We'd, um, we had such a tactical advantage over the enemy, and it was just pretty, pretty easy.

   17. TFTim Ferriss33:12

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JWJocko Willink33:13

       We always worked with SEALs only. It was just, it was just easy. Um, tough of course. I'm not, I shouldn't say easy, but it was less challenging. And, and on that deployment it was like we won everything, and we, we felt great, you know. We felt great about what we did. We felt like we accomplished our mission. And, you know, if those were the challenges of combat, as an individual, I felt like I did a good job.

   19. TFTim Ferriss33:41

       Right. You were well-equipped.

   20. JWJocko Willink33:42

       I did a good job and, and my troop did, my platoon did a good job. We did a good job. And it was, it seemed like we passed a test, you know? Like, 'cause, you know, at that time we hadn't had sustained combat operations for a long time in the SEAL Teams. So we felt pretty badass. So now you fast-forward to Ramadi in 2006. It is completely different. There are insurgents that actually control a majority of the city. They are, have complete freedom to maneuver. They are terrorizing, and I don't use that term lightly. They are terrorizing. They are skinning people alive. They are beheading people. They're doing what you see on TV right now with ISIS. They're doing that. The civilian population is horrified, and there are 30 to 50 enemy attacks a day in the city of Ramadi. There are, Route Michigan, which is a road that ran from east to west through Ramadi, which was loosely controlled by Americans, would have 7 to 10 IEDs attacks, IED attacks a day. So this is the statistically the most IED'd road in all of Iraq, and it's three miles long.

   21. TFTim Ferriss35:02

       Improvised explosive device in Iraq.

   22. JWJocko Willink35:04

       Improvised explosive device.

   23. TFTim Ferriss35:06

       Yep.

   24. JWJocko Willink35:06

       So these are roadside bombs that completely caused the majority of casualties in the war in Iraq. And so we get there, you know, the, the buildings are rubbled out. The buildings have bullet holes in them. There's wrecked vehicles on the streets. There's giant craters in the streets from IEDs. And on top of all that, on an almost daily basis, you're going to some kind of a memorial ceremony for an American soldier or an American Marine that's been killed in combat. And we rolled into that, and right away I knew this is completely different situation, and we are gonna fight a completely different type of battle here.

   25. TFTim Ferriss35:49

       Were the, uh, in this case, I mean, looking at your opponents, were they better trained, or did they just have a sort of territorial and movement advantage, um, that, that made it more difficult for you guys to-

   26. JWJocko Willink36:07

       They had both.

   27. TFTim Ferriss36:08

       They had both.

   28. JWJocko Willink36:09

       They had both. So there was a former military base, former Iraqi military base, so you guys, so you had a lot of former regime people there, soldiers, former soldiers that were there. They definitely controlled the terrain without question. They acted, uh, they were allowed to fight in a completely different way than us, and by that I mean they have no rules.

   29. TFTim Ferriss36:32

       Right.

   30. JWJocko Willink36:32

       So you're fighting against someone that has no rules, and, you know, they don't care about collateral damage. We are, we are very careful about collateral damage. They don't care-
8. 39:13 – 44:42

   What makes an effective combat commander: humility, learning fast, and winning the population

   1. TFTim Ferriss39:13

      What, what separates a good commander from a great commander in an environment like that?

   2. JWJocko Willink39:26

      Out of the gate, you know, my immediate answer is humility because you're in a situation like that, there's no way that you know everything. It just, it's not possible. And so you have to be humble enough to, you know, reach out, ask people for advice. There had been a, there had been conventional units, so big army units, you know, um, on the ground for years. And when we got there, there had been a unit on the ground, the 2-28, uh, Iron Soldiers from Pennsylvania. I'm just giving them some props right now 'cause they were awesome. And they, they'd been on the ground for 14 months fighting. So we went to those guys and we, you know, said, "Okay, what, how can we help? What can we do? What advice do you have for us?" Uh, we wanted to learn what they knew, and I, I think that, that was a big piece of it. And also, you know, I had an open mind when it came to the strategic mission that we were trying to accomplish. Because for many years, what SEALs and Special Operations and the conventional units were doing was going out in the neighborhoods, grabbing bad guys, and coming back to their bases. And w- after three years of that, the enemy attacks had gone up 300%, so clearly something was not working. And the, the brigade that came in and took over, again, I'm gonna give some, uh, huge compliments to the 1-1 AD under Colonel Sean McFarland. They came in with a amazing strategy, which was seize, clear, hold, and build, which meant you got these bad neighborhoods that are owned by the enemy, and okay, we're gonna go in there and we're gonna stay there. And that was a, a very different strategy than anyone had used. And so-

   3. TFTim Ferriss41:11

      That's the seize.

   4. JWJocko Willink41:12

      That's the what?

   5. TFTim Ferriss41:13

      That's the-

   6. JWJocko Willink41:13

      The seize, clear, hold, and build. So you go into these enemy territories and you actually take over a building or two buildings or three buildings, and you make them your house, make them your fort. And so that, so that's what we did. And again, so from my perspective, uh, you know, for Colonel McFarland and the rest of the battalion commanders and all those commanders to have this open mind to try out a new, a completely new strategy, which was very, very dangerous.

   7. TFTim Ferriss41:39

      Very dangerous.

   8. JWJocko Willink41:39

      Um-

   9. TFTim Ferriss41:39

      I mean, I'm, I'm not an expert. That sounds very risky.

   10. JWJocko Willink41:42

       It was extremely risky and, you know, there was a, a, a huge price was paid. Um, the casualties were s- very significant and very horrifying.

   11. TFTim Ferriss41:52

       Now, despite that overall, was that an effective strategy?

   12. JWJocko Willink41:57

       It absolutely was.

   13. TFTim Ferriss41:57

       That was just the price that it exacted.

   14. JWJocko Willink41:59

       It, it, it absolutely was. So by the time I left, the, the strategy hadn't... We hadn't seen the results yet. I left October 21st, 2006. By... And, and it, and it was still about 30 to 50 enemy attacks a day. About five months after we left, the enemy attacks were down to one a day, two a day.

   15. TFTim Ferriss42:21

       From what was previously?

   16. JWJocko Willink42:21

       From 30 to 50.

   17. TFTim Ferriss42:23

       Wow.

   18. JWJocko Willink42:23

       S- and then, and then six months later it was, you know, down to one a week and then one a month, and then soon, uh, you know, by 2007, Ramadi was the safest place in Iraq, I mean, if, excluding maybe the Kurd-controlled area up in the north.

   19. TFTim Ferriss42:38

       And d- do you attribute that to anything, uh, else outside of this, uh, this stratagem, the, the, the seize, I'm apologizing that I'm forgetting the, the others, but occupying these buildings or areas and making them your home for a period of time. Were there other, uh, tactical decisions or strategies that contributed to that decrease?

   20. JWJocko Willink43:00

       So the other... Well, obviously the other huge piece of this is the men and women that were fighting, and God bless them all because it was a hell of a fight. And like I said, there was significant casualties. And the other focus now was to take back the neighborhoods, and in that ... secure the populace. So in other wars, you know, you say, "Okay, here's our strategic objective is to take this hill, or take this airfield," or, or what, or what have you. In this one, the goal, the strategic goal was to secure the populace, to make sure that the populace was safe. Because once the populace was safe, then it was, okay, now we're gonna give you some food, we're gonna give you some water. We have Iraqi troops with us. We, so we worked all the time with Iraqi troops, and they're speaking the same language, and it took a very short amount of time before that barrier got broken down and the local populace of Ramadi turned against the insurgents because they n- no longer feared them. And so that was the other huge tipping point, was getting the, uh, the local populace of I- of Ramadi on the side of the coalition.

   21. TFTim Ferriss44:06

       I imagine that would give you a, I mean, an enormous informational advantage also.

   22. JWJocko Willink44:10

       A- absolutely.

   23. TFTim Ferriss44:12

       The, so it sounds like you have humility and openness to modifying preexisting strategies. Uh, but then there's also an experimental piece it sounds like. I mean, h- how was th- how was the first, uh, experiment conducted, uh, or how did it come to pass and be implemented, uh, that you would go in and occupy and test out that particular approach? Because it seems like... Were there other, uh, experiments

9. 44:42 – 52:42

   How the strategy gets executed: objectives, combat outposts, and SEAL platoon roles

   1. TFTim Ferriss44:42

      like that? And I know I just asked two questions, but, uh, I'm, I'm just trying to figure out in a military structure, and I haven't been exposed to that, where I'm sure there are a lot, there's a s- there's a lot of command, uh, structures in place. Um, were you given a lot of latitude to experiment in that way, or did it require a lot of process?

   2. JWJocko Willink45:00

      So let, let me give you a, I'll try and give a concise answer.

   3. TFTim Ferriss45:03

      Doesn't have to be concise.

   4. JWJocko Willink45:04

      But, but this is, you're, you know, you're going deep right now.

   5. TFTim Ferriss45:06

      Oh, yeah.

   6. JWJocko Willink45:06

      Which is fine, uh, because I guess it's your podcast.

   7. TFTim Ferriss45:10

      [laughs]

   8. JWJocko Willink45:12

      So I'll, I'll take it back to a place called Al Qaim, where the Marines did a big sweep through Al Qaim, and at some point when they went through Al Qaim, the local populace started saying, "Hey, there's bad guys over there. Hey, there's bad guys in that building down there. Go get them, too." So there was a little thought about that. Now, there was a, uh, place in north of Ramadi called Tal Afar, which there's a great, uh, legendary army commander, you know, Half- McMaster's, and I gotta look that up 'cause I, I think I'm, I think I'm missing it, but-

   9. TFTim Ferriss45:44

      Yeah, that's okay. And people in the show notes can also, um, th- th- they can also do some research.

   10. JWJocko Willink45:49

       H.R. McMaster, the guy's legendary guy, but he ran the seize, clear, and hold strategy up in Tal Afar, and it was very effective. And again, this is pre-surge. That was 2005, 2006. Colonel MacFarland went and took over for him in Tal Afar and saw, you know, got the turnover and understood what had happened, and then Colonel MacFarland got the task once McMaster left to come down to Ramadi, and he said, "You know, I'm gonna do the same thing there." And so that's what he did. And you know, it was... You know, one thing that's interesting is it's not a movie, and so everything was not perfect, and you'd push into some of these neighborhoods, and it w- it was fierce, fierce fighting. And you know, you take casualties, and I think that Colonel MacFarland understood that deeply, and he also had a vision for what the victory was gonna look like. So those, those pieces and, and pushing in, you know, the first time it was like, "Hey, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna go into this neighborhood that's controlled by the insurgents and move in."

   11. TFTim Ferriss46:59

       Mm-hmm. And i- in a, in a, in a, uh, battle such as, uh, you know, uh, Ramadi, how do you define objectives, um, in the longer term? Not necessarily on a, on a nightly basis, but i- in the longer term so that you can focus the efforts-

   12. JWJocko Willink47:18

       Yeah

   13. TFTim Ferriss47:18

       ... and su- and sustain the morale for that matter?

   14. JWJocko Willink47:21

       Right. And that's, that's actually a, a simple question. You know, "Okay, here's what we're gonna do three days from now. We're gonna go into this neighborhood. We're gonna establish a combat outpost. And, and that's what we're gonna focus on for the next three days. And then once we get that thing established, guess what? We're gonna spend a, you know, four or five days there, and then we're gonna do it again." And grand picture, you know, strategic vision, here's what it's gonna look like. We're gonna have combat outposts all over Ramadi that are gonna be controlled by Americans with Iraqi soldiers in them that can go out and talk to the local populace, and we can secure the city. So the, it was, it was as simple as that. Now, you take that down a level to, let's say, m- my SEAL platoon, one of my SEAL platoons, and they'd be saying, "Okay, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna go and take this particular building, and then we're gonna cover for the conventional units as they come in in a very exposed way." Because when you build these combat outposts, you're literally doing a construction project in the middle of a combat zone. So these guys, these brave Army engineers are standing with, you know, a hammer in their hand, full body armor, and a s- you know, reinforcing these buildings, loading sandbags, building barricades, and th- you know, this is while we're being attacked.

   15. TFTim Ferriss48:33

       Wow.

   16. JWJocko Willink48:33

       And so those guys, you know, l- like I said, I c- I could never give enough credit to the units that we worked there in Ramadi. They were phenomenal and brave. And what we would do is while they were doing those missions f- building out those combat outposts, we would go out to the high ground s- surrounding the combat outpost. So we'd sneak out into the areas surrounding the combat outpost, so now when the enemy came to attack the combat outpost, we would kill them.

   17. TFTim Ferriss49:02

       Right.

   18. JWJocko Willink49:02

       And they didn't know where we were in the beginning.

   19. TFTim Ferriss49:05

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JWJocko Willink49:05

       And eventually, you know, they'd figure out where we were and, and, and come attack.

   21. TFTim Ferriss49:10

       What, um- Was the sort of division of expertise like among the 35 SEALs, uh, under your command? Insomuch as, and again, I, I, I, I have to apologize because my, what I know of SEALs, some of it has come from guys who've been deployed, um, who, who, who are friends of mine, but a lot of it comes from seeing films, right? I mean, it's, it's a lot of the exposure that civilians have here. But, uh, and some people say like, "Oh, yeah, that, that guy's a door kicker. You know, this guy is this, this guy is that." How did the, the responsibilities break down, uh, across those 35?

   22. JWJocko Willink49:47

       You know, it's, it's, it's a SEAL, two SEAL platoons.

   23. TFTim Ferriss49:50

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JWJocko Willink49:50

       Each SEAL platoon has a, a, a singular leader that's in charge of the whole platoon, and he's got some subordinate leadership underneath him. And then you've got these guys that are, have their specialty craft, whether they're snipers, whether they're medic guys, corpsman, whether they're breachers, which are guys that blow u- blow things up, blow open doors, uh, riflemen, grenadiers, uh, point men. So you've got these various, um, skill sets inside-

   25. TFTim Ferriss50:18

       What is a, uh, I apologize, the rifleman and then what was the other word you used?

   26. JWJocko Willink50:22

       Grenadier.

   27. TFTim Ferriss50:23

       Are they the same? No, there's two different-

   28. JWJocko Willink50:25

       It, it depends. You know, so a rifleman's basically a guy with a rifle, which we generally wouldn't have because almost every guy in a SEAL platoon is doing something other than just shooting his gun. Like I said, he's a radioman-

   29. TFTim Ferriss50:35

       Right

   30. JWJocko Willink50:35

       ... so he's calling in for fire, calling tanks, c- calling casualty evacuation, anything like that. The sniper is being a sniper. The machine gunners are machine gunners. Uh, a grenadier lobs gre- grenades at people.
10. 52:42 – 1:08:59

    Leadership that holds up under pressure: humility, balance, and learning to detach

    1. TFTim Ferriss52:42

       Who are other people, uh, in the military, alive or dead, US or elsewhere, um, who you really respect as, uh, sort of strategists or tacticians?

    2. JWJocko Willink52:59

       Obviously I talked about, uh, Colonel Sean McFarland, who was just fantastic. And you know, he was, he was... And I don't know if I'm necessarily right on this, but you know, General Petraeus, uh, who wrote the manual on counterinsurgency, so he's obvious, and he, you know, orchestrated the surge, and he's, uh, brilliant and, you know, in my opinion, was, you know, the critical player in, in really turning the rest of the war. Again, we were pre-surge, and, uh, but I think they used the success in Ramadi as a reason to, uh, to sell the surge. Like, we can do this in other places. We did it in Ramadi. So you know, from my perspective, both those guys were, uh, were just out- outstanding.

    3. TFTim Ferriss53:43

       And when you, when you look at, and the reason I was asking about the, the smaller groups that are sent out, say the, the eight to 10 SEALs with then the, uh, the, the Iraqi, um, colleagues, uh, what distinguishes a good leader in that type of situation or in BUD/S or elsewhere? I mean, what, what have, what have you observed and learned about what makes a good leader versus a good or a mediocre or a bad leader?

    4. JWJocko Willink54:14

       Uh, again, it's, it's the, the immediate answer that comes to mind is humility because you've gotta be humble and you, you've gotta be coachable. You know, the, we would fire guys, you know, and later when I was running training, we would fire a couple leaders in every, from every SEAL team because they, they couldn't, they couldn't lead. And 99.9% of the time it was, wasn't a question of their ability, it was a question of their ability to listen and their ability to step outside and see that maybe there's a better way to do things. Uh, so that's, that's number one. And number two I would say is a pr- an individual who is balanced. And you know, I talk about, there's a, there's a phrase that I use, it's the dichotomy of leadership. So le- in a leadership situation, you're constantly balancing these opposing forces. So, uh, do you have to be aggressive? Absolutely. Can you be too aggressive? Yes, you can. Um, can you be, do you need to be courageous? Yes, you do. Can you be foolhardy and get people killed? Absolutely. So there's all these balances. Can you be too close to your men? Yes, you can. Can you be not close enough? Yes, you can. Can you be too robotic? Yes, you can. Can you be too emotional? Absolutely. So what I find the best leaders, they have this ability to balance all those opposing forces. And, and usually when you do f- find a problem, you know, if you're, if you're making... If you realize that your leadership isn't working, generally you can look and say, "Oh, I- I'm going too far in one direction on this particular, uh, force-

    5. TFTim Ferriss55:50

       Mm-hmm

    6. JWJocko Willink55:50

       ... this dichotomy of leadership. I'm going too far. I'm being, being overbearing. I'm micromanaging." You know, micromanage is a great one, right? You, you can obviously micromanage your people, and they won't act, they won't do anything on their own, they won't take any initiative, and that's horrible. The other end is you can not give them the guidance that they need and, and not pay close enough attention to them, and now they don't know what the mission is or what they're doing. So there's all these dichotomies that you have to balance as a leader. And, you know, I think that between being humble and, and balancing all those dichotomies of leadership is, is what makes a good leader.

    7. TFTim Ferriss56:24

       And how would, say, the ability to listen and be coachable, um, what would be an example of how that manifests itself? Just how you would observe that and say, "That's a guy who's good at, uh, being humble and coachable," or the opposite, right? Like, so I'm looking for the things that you would observe or hear where you'd be like, "You know what? I think we might have to let that guy go."

    8. JWJocko Willink56:46

       Yeah. You'd see a guy in... Again, now we're going back to training.

    9. TFTim Ferriss56:50

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JWJocko Willink56:50

        We put these guys through very, um, realistic and challenging training, to say the least. And I know if there's any guys that went through training when I was running it, right now they're chuckling because it was very realistic, psychotic, and we put so much pressure on these guys and overwhelm them. And, you know, a good leader would come back and say, "I, I, I lost it. I didn't control it. I didn't, I, I didn't do a good job. I, I didn't see what was happening. I got too absorbed in this little tiny tactical situation that was right in front of me." They'd, they'd... Either they'd make those criticisms themselves about themselves, or they'd say, "What did I do wrong?" And when you told them, they'd nod their head, they'd pull out their notebook, they'd take notes. And, and that right there, you know, that's a guy that's gonna, that's gonna make it, that's gonna do it right. And then you get the guy that comes in, and he's immediately saying, uh, you know, you say, "Well, what'd you think of the operation?" Or... And, and if it was a disaster, he'd say it was a disaster. And you go, "Well, what went wrong?" And immediately it's, "Well, my assault team leader didn't do X, and my mobility commander didn't do Y. And I told those guys I wanted them to go over there, and they didn't go there."

    11. TFTim Ferriss58:03

        Finger-pointing.

    12. JWJocko Willink58:04

        Immediately finger-pointing, and that's just a, an, a telltale sign you've got a guy that's not humble enough and, and coachable.

    13. TFTim Ferriss58:11

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JWJocko Willink58:11

        And it's, it's an awful thing, and you can try and, you can try and change people, and sometimes they would change, but it's difficult to get them to change. You know, that's... Some people are, are born with that characteristic and, and it's, it's a bummer to see because it's... I- if you can't fix them, you can't fix them.

    15. TFTim Ferriss58:27

        Right.

    16. JWJocko Willink58:27

        And they're not gonna listen to anybody.

    17. TFTim Ferriss58:28

        Well, it sounds like, uh, self-awareness is also a big component of that, to have the, the awareness to kind of step outside and objectively evaluate yourself.

    18. JWJocko Willink58:38

        I, I, I, you know, I call it detachment. And, you know, that's one of the things that early on in my leadership career, I, I actually remember when it happened. I was probably 20-something years, 22 or 23 years old. I was in my f- s- I was in my first SEAL platoon. And we come up, we're on an oil rig in California doing some training, and we come up on this level of this oil rig, and it's... Never been on an oil rig before. They're very complex. There's gear and boxes and just stuff everywhere on these levels. And they're see-through. You can see through the floors and you can see... So it's, it's a complex environment. And we come up and we all get on, on this platform, on this level, and everybody freezes. And I'm kind of waiting, and I'm a new guy, so, uh, I don't really, you know, I don't feel like I should be doing anything. But then I said to myself, you know, "Somebody's got to do something." So I just what's called high-ported my gun. So I just lifted my gun up towards the air like I'm not, I'm not a shooter right now. And I took one step back off the line and I looked around and I saw what the picture was and I just said, you know, "Hold left, move right." And, and everybody heard it and they did it. And I said to myself, "Hmm, you know, there's that... That, that's what you need to do." And so I realized that detaching yourself from the situation-

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:00:02

        So you could observe it

    20. JWJocko Willink1:00:02

        ... i- so that you can see what's happening is absolutely critical. And, and now, you know, when I talk to e- executives or m- mid-level managers, I explain to them that I'm doing that all the time. I, I... It sounds horrible, but it's almost like sometimes I'm not a participant in my own life. I'm an observer of that guy that's doing it. So if I'm having a conversation with you and, you know, we're trying to discuss a point and I'm watching and saying, "Wait, are you being too emotional right now?"

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:00:31

        Mm.

    22. JWJocko Willink1:00:31

        Or, you know, or, "Wait a second. Look at him. He..." You know, 'cause I can't, I'm not reading you correctly if I'm seeing you through my own emotion or ego. I can't really see what you're thinking. But if I step out of that and now I'm seeing w- I can see the real you. And if you are getting angry, if your ego is getting hurt, if you're about to cave because you're just fed up with me, whereas if I'm, you know, raging in my own head, I might miss all of that.

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:00:55

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JWJocko Willink1:00:56

        And so that detachment that takes place as a leader is critical and, and you're 100% right on that.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:01:05

        How do you instill that or try to teach that? Is that, is, is that something people... I, 'cause I, I feel like that maybe more than the humility seems to be a coachable skill. Um, and the, part of the reason I say that is because I've found that whether it's like cognitive behavioral therapy or stoic philosophy for that matter, you can in small increments condition people to have less of an extreme emotional response and to try to observe themselves. And I suppose that, that there's some Buddhist thought that would translate to that as well. But how do you teach, how do you help teach someone that ability to detach?

    26. JWJocko Willink1:01:44

        So what we did to teach them was put them under extraordinary pressure where to fail to detach from the situation and step up and away from the problem would result in failure. And I, I had a great experience where one of my, uh, one of the... A guy that actually took my job over as the troop commander, and a v- very close friend of mine, he, he got hurt. So he was, he was going through the training now, and I was running the training. And we were going out to a place called Niland, California, to do land warfare, and again, this is desert operations. You're patrolling in long distances. You're hitting targets, and we have, uh, like, high-level laser tag guns-

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:02:31

        Mm

    28. JWJocko Willink1:02:31

        ... that we use to shoot and, and it's very... We, we put a lot of pressure on people. There's helicopters. There's smoke. There's bombs. There's all kinds of stuff happening. And this guy, this buddy of mine, he was supposed to be commanding and all, but he had broken his neck-

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:02:45

        Oh, God

    30. JWJocko Willink1:02:46

        ... about, I don't know, six weeks prior to this.
11. 1:08:59 – 1:18:55

    High performance: rolling workouts, elite talent vs. obsessive training, and morning discipline

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:08:59

       Uh, s- so I wanna talk a little bit, we're just gonna shift gears a little bit, and I know we're, we're gonna bounce a lot, around a lot, but so I, I have, uh, I've heard that... I've heard of your workouts, uh, when you're deployed. And one guy said, I don't know if this is true, that you would, uh, you know, roll with, like, 20 guys in a platoon as, as a workout and just tap out, like, 20 guys. Is that true?

    2. JWJocko Willink1:09:22

       Well, yeah. I mean, y- you're rolling with guys that don't know anything, and so in order to get good training in, I would just have guys, you know, come in, you know, every 15 minutes. And, you know, I, I, I, you know, I remember this particularly when I was at Team 2, and I would just have the guys come in every 15 or 20 minutes and just, you know, roll with them, m- and then another guy would come in.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:09:43

       Yeah.

    4. JWJocko Willink1:09:43

       So yeah.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:09:44

       Stuff.

    6. JWJocko Willink1:09:44

       Yeah. But I mean, I was, you know, better than them at jujitsu.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:09:47

       Mm-hmm.

    8. JWJocko Willink1:09:47

       And so y- it's n- it's not that I was any tougher, I just knew more.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:09:51

       When you look at, uh, of course, you know many very good competitors in jujitsu, MMA. When you look at the, the top performers in that world and then some of the top performers you've met in the SEAL world, uh, what are the commonalities, if any?

    10. JWJocko Willink1:10:11

        Well, uh, let me talk about jujitsu first.

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:10:13

        Sure.

    12. JWJocko Willink1:10:13

        Uh, one thing I noticed about jujitsu is there are... W- when we get to the, when you get to the world-class level of jujitsu guys, there is a s- stratification there between guys that have a natural God-given ability that is above and beyond normal human, uh... It's above and beyond what a normal human being would do or should be able to do.

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:10:46

        Right.

    14. JWJocko Willink1:10:47

        And there's not many of those people. There's-

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:10:48

        Who would you put, and who comes to mind when you think of that?

    16. JWJocko Willink1:10:51

        I, I think, um, Rickson Gracie, who, who, you know, I've trained with him, and yeah, he's... I, I was, I was a blue belt when I trained with him, but you could feel that this guy is not normal.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:11:02

        [laughs]

    18. JWJocko Willink1:11:03

        Uh, Dean Lister, who is my training partner forever, and, you know, I've rolled with guys from all over the world, and Dean Lister is at another level. I've never rolled with Marcelo Garcia, but, uh, you know, just from watching in competition-

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:11:19

        Yeah

    20. JWJocko Willink1:11:19

        ... you can see that he has that as well. And then the next... And, and I mean, that's, there's not a large group of people-

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:11:25

        There aren't many, right

    22. JWJocko Willink1:11:25

        ... at that level. And then the next level down is guys that train like maniacs, and they're great athletes. And th- and that's, that... And they're awesome, too, you know? Those guys are the world champions, uh, et cetera. Um, so that's, that's my estimation. And, and having rolled with guys o- on both ends of the spectrum. You know, Dean is an example because Dean has won world championships training a minuscule amount compared to, you know, what a normal person would have to train to get there.

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:12:00

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JWJocko Willink1:12:00

        Which I don't know if that's a compliment or, uh, a s- uh, you know, a negative.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:12:06

        Right. [laughs]

    26. JWJocko Willink1:12:07

        But, you know, it's, it's true.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:12:09

        Yeah.

    28. JWJocko Willink1:12:09

        It's, uh... Now, in, in the SEAL teams, as far as the, the high performers, I think it's the people that, you know, you, you... It's a certain level of focus, I think, and again, a certain level of open-mindedness and a certain level of dedication to the task and to the craft that they're dealing with, and you get guys that are just super passionate about the job. And if you're super p- passionate about the job in the SEAL teams, you know, there's a really good chance you're gonna be one of the top performers.

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:12:42

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JWJocko Willink1:12:42

        Because you're gonna put in all that extra effort to, to do well.
12. 1:18:55 – 2:00:14

    Meaning, darkness, and manhood: defining success, family tradeoffs, fear exposure, and misconceptions

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:18:55

       Right. You can indulge when the, when, when the spirit moves you. When you think of the word successful, who are the first people or the first person that comes to mind?

    2. JWJocko Willink1:19:10

       So for me, y- you know, the, the part of the world that I've seen is a very dark place. It's a dark place. That's what war is. And when your job, which my job was, was to expand that darkness in many ways, I mean, it's... War is about killing people. And so for me, when I look to someone that's successful, it's someone that brings some light into that darkness. So for me, the first people that come to my head are Mark Lee, who is one of my guys, first SEAL killed in Iraq. Mike Monsoor, one of my guys, second SEAL killed in Iraq, posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor. And Ryan Job, one of my guys, wounded in Iraq, blinded in both eyes, made it home, medically retired from the, from the Navy, married his high school sweetheart, got her pregnant, and finished his college degree. And after his 22nd surgery to repair the damage that was done to his, his head and face, there were complications and he died as well. But all of those guys, in all that darkness, they did things. They, they made a sacrifice that was completely selfless. And to do that and to live and fight and die like a warrior, that to me is success. And those guys are my heroes. [sighs]

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:21:43

       What do you, what do you struggle with? And I, I ask that because, uh, I mean, we've, we've only just met, but it's hard for me as a civilian to fathom what, what you and your friends have been through. Uh, impossible for me to fathom. Um, and I mean, it makes me just feel ashamed for ever complaining about a bad day or a hard day, uh, given what you guys have experienced and the stakes that are involved and the sacrifices and the, the, you know, the sadness and tragedy that is, uh, a part of that job. Uh, what, what do you struggle with, uh, whether it's in the business sphere or just in, in life in general, if you're open to talking about it? 'Cause I certainly, I know that, uh, I used to, you know, when I had these, um, icons in my head, I was like, "Oh my God, Richard Branson, he's got it all figured out. He's doing everything perfectly. He's just, he's on cruise control, hitting home runs every time he gets at bat." And as I've slowly gotten to know, not necessarily Branson directly, although I have met him before, I realize, like, people all have, and this is something that you talked about, the detachment. You know, when I find myself, I've always had kind of impatience and anger issues, and it's helped me to be aggressive in sport and in business and in negotiation, but it's also caused some problems for me. And, um, but I've realized that one of the ways I can tone that down is by realizing, like, everybody ha- everyone is fighting a battle you know nothing about, uh, in some way. But what, what are the things that, uh, that you find difficult or that you struggle with or have struggled with?

    4. JWJocko Willink1:23:33

       It's, it's, it's an interesting question because, and this is a filler answer in case you couldn't tell that, because when I start off with, "It's an interesting question," that means I'm not really quite sure what to say. Um, I've, you know, I've been, I've been lucky. I've been blessed. I've had, you know, a, a life that I would not trade with anyone in the world. Um, when you talk about Ramadi, I, that was the highlight of my life because I was leading men in combat, which is something, which was something that I always wanted to do and something that I felt that I was destined to do. And when I was in that situation, I knew that. I, I wasn't, I don't look back and say, "Oh, I wish I would've enjoyed that." No, I knew it then. This is it. This is, this is what you have been waiting for your whole life and what you really have been preparing for your whole life. And I was lucky to be there and I was lucky to have, uh, incredible guys to work with, both in my unit and in the other units in the Army and the Marine Corps that we worked with. I was lucky enough to have guys that were so brave and so dedicated. And I, I will use the word fearless, not that they didn't have fear, but that they overcame it all the time. And so I'd say if there's anything that I struggle with now, it's just that, does anything else matter? Is there-- And the answer is no. The answer is no. Nothing else matters. Nothing else is close. And so you have to deal with that. And, and I don't, struggle is a, a strong word because I don't sit there at night, you know, wishing I was back. Well, okay, I do do that, you know. Sometimes I, I often wish I was back. But I don't dwell on it because it's gone. And- I'm so happy that I could be part of it and that I was able to work with such tremendous guys, and, uh, I try and keep their memory alive every day in my own head.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:26:01

       How did you, when you were active, um, reconcile the risks that, uh, are inherent in that job with family, with your family?

    6. JWJocko Willink1:26:15

       Well, first of all, I actually-- when I had-- when I was young, you know, I, I thought that I was gonna die. I thought I was gonna die in combat. There was no war going on. This is ignorant thought, right? This is young, stupid, um, you know, unknowledgeable idiot saying, "I'm only gonna live to... I'm never gonna make it to thirty."

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:26:34

       Right.

    8. JWJocko Willink1:26:36

       And I was good with that 'cause I had, you know, nothing. I was a single guy that was, uh, wanted to go out and destroy the world, you know? That's awesome. Then, you know, as I got older and I realized, oh, I'm actually gonna live to be thirty and probably forty, v- a-and so I had to, you know, work through that. Um, and you know what? I got married along the way, had kids, and I actually, when I had kids, I actually felt more ready to die because, you know, I had left my-

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:27:14

       Fulfilled the legacy

    10. JWJocko Willink1:27:14

        ... I'd fulfilled my, my, my... I left, l- I left children, and so I actually felt like I was okay with that. Um, which I guess that's bad, but, you know, men have been traveling and fighting for thousands and thousands of years, since the beginning of mankind, and I knew that as a warrior, that's okay, and sometimes men don't come home, and the families drive on, and that's the way the world works. So I didn't really have much to reconcile there. Um, now as far as division of time and, you know, having a family, I, I can tell you, uh, you know, I was very lopsided and unbalanced in that situation. You know, I-- the SEAL teams to me was everything, and nothing else mattered. Well, I shouldn't say it didn't matter, but it was definitely on a much lower priority. And y- I, I remember actually my wife sent me an email when I was on deployment, and she, you know, she's very independent, doing her thing, and she sends me an email that says something along the lines of, "Hey," you know, "send us a picture of where you sleep." Fair enough. You know, they... Show the kids where, where I sleep at night. And so I went up to my room, and we s- had some old, uh, Saddam palace that we had taken over. Not really a palace. It was, it was the Saddam house that we had taken over, and that's where we lived, and I had the, one of the rooms in this building. And so I went up, and I took some pictures, some digital pictures of my bed, and I looked at them and I said, "Oh, wait a second." And I went into a folder that I had, and I pulled it out, and I took out pictures of my wife and kids, and I hung them up on the wall. And I took pictures, and I sent those home, and I took the pictures back down because I didn't wanna be thinking about my wife and kids when I had men's lives at stake. And that's how I compartmentalized and did what I, w- did what I had to do, which was be dedicated to my guys, to the mission, and to the country. And at that point in time, you know, it had to take priority over everything. Took priority over everything. I mean, my guys, they had families they had to go home to. I can't be thinking about this other stuff. So there's a little reconciliation.

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:29:45

        Who are, uh, now that you've entered the, uh, the civilian world, are there particular non-military leaders, whether they're CEOs or maybe outside of the private sector, um, you admire or, uh, look to in some way as role models?

    12. JWJocko Willink1:30:07

        You know, I... You, you meet these guys and, and girls, and they are, they... A lot of them might as well have been in the SEAL teams, you know? They're aggressive. They're making things happen. And yeah, I'll, I'll, I admire and learn from them all the time, you know? And, and I think they get the same thing from me, and that's why I'm in business, you know? So, uh, absolutely. There's some... You know, America is the greatest country on Earth, and, you know, capitalism i-is what makes this country one of the, one of the things that makes this country so great, and those folks that run these businesses are, you know, part of that fabric that makes America great. So absolutely, they're, they're incredible people. And, and they have the same faults that SEALs have, and, and they make the same mistakes, and they get, they get involved emotionally with stuff, and their ego gets in the way. Uh, of course, just like it happens with SEALs, it happens with them, and, and they, you know, they make the same mistakes where they don't explain the mission to their troops, or they don't break it down from a strategic level to a tactical level so that people on the front line can understand. So it's all the same mistakes, and that's, again, that's kinda why we're in business now.

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:31:16

        Right. Humans will be humans.

    14. JWJocko Willink1:31:17

        Exactly.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:31:18

        Group, group dynamics will be group dynamics.

    16. JWJocko Willink1:31:19

        Unfortunately, that is correct.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:31:20

        [laughs] And, you know, when you, when you were talking about, um, the detachment, it made me think of, uh, uh, quite a few years ago, but I had my first sort of frivolous lawsuit come in, which completely paralyzed me. I mean, I was so intimidated and shocked and fearful. Uh, and it, it ended up getting completely tossed out, but it took a long time and a lot of money. And I ended up developing migraines. I started clenching my jaw to the point where I had these shooting pains, and I had to get a mouthpiece. And it, it caused a whole cascade of health problems and issues. And I, I remember talking to a number of my buddies who had been in business for decades and at very high levels, and one of them [laughs] I won't give his full name, we'll have Pete, really hilarious, uh, but brilliantly effective executive. He goes, "Timmy," he's like, "You're too fucking nice. I should have sued you just because you should get used to it." And he's like, starts talking to me [laughs] treating it like such a non-event. It was just such a non-event for him. And I couldn't compute it at the time, but, uh, now I've just realized, like, some of these things are a cost of doing business, and if you're going to be aggressive and push the envelope and step into environments that are uncertain, because that's where a lot of rewards are potentially, you're going to deal with these things. And so now I'm at a point, like, I've been exposed to that enough times, and not necessarily frivolous lawsuits, but just legal headaches because that's a sort of a side effect of having a very vigorous free market, uh, on one hand, is you, you have some legal complications. And, um, what I've tried to figure out for myself, uh, spending time with people who have been deployed and done the realistic training that, uh, you, you've referred to, I mean, some of which is just it- beyond intense, uh, as, as they've described it to me. I've wanted to take myself out of this sort of keyboard, uh, shackled experience from day to day and expose myself to more of these stresses, to try to toughen myself and inoculate myself against future uncertainty and things like that. What are, um, what are skills or experiences that you think every man should have?

    18. JWJocko Willink1:33:44

        I mean, there's a whole, there's a whole list of those, right?

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:33:46

        Oh, yeah. No.

    20. JWJocko Willink1:33:47

        There's a whole list of those.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:33:47

        I'm, I'm, I'm interested because quite frankly, I feel like, and I've had female friends say this to me, where they're like, "You know, [sighs] I meet a lot of guys. Like, I date a lot of guys, but there just aren't many men out there anymore." Which that, we could dig really far into that, and there's, it's, there's all sorts of complicated sort of gender questions and topics that that could raise. But just putting all that aside for the time being, I think a lot of folks like myself even, uh, and I experienced this when I was doing the 4-Hour Chef and really got back into doing hunting and field dressing and trying to build things and working with fire, and I was like, "Wow, I feel like I'm slowly becoming maybe barely manually literate," you know, compared to, like, my great-grandfather who was chopping wood every day, building stuff, fixing things that broke, et cetera. Um, so y- what's, what would be on that list in your mind? I mean, if, if guys are listening to this and, "You know what? I wanna toughen the fuck up just a, just a little bit," you know?

    22. JWJocko Willink1:34:46

        I... Y- if you went bare bones basic, you're talking food, shelter, and water, right?

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:34:50

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JWJocko Willink1:34:50

        Do you have the skills to bring those things to the table and make them happen? I think that's a very basic place to start. I can tell you that from, from my perspective, and I, I actually, uh, gave a speech at one of my buddy's weddings. And, you know, I said that there was three things in my life that made me feel like a man. And when you, when I say feel like a man, it doesn't mean bow up and feel like a man. It actually means the opposite. It actually means I, I'm confident enough that I don't need to bow up, and I don't need to-

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:35:26

        Bow up meaning puff up your chest or-

    26. JWJocko Willink1:35:27

        Puff up my chest and I'm a badass.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:35:29

        Yep.

    28. JWJocko Willink1:35:30

        And, uh, the first one was a- was actually jujitsu, was learning how to fight and knowing that there's not a question that if I get into an altercation, I can handle myself. I, 100%. That, 'cause when you're, when you don't know jujitsu or you don't know how to fight, then you question that in the back of your mind, and how do you, how do you answer that question? You act like a, an asshole, right? You... These are the guys that, you know, run around in a bar getting in fights with people 'cause they don't know. They don't, they're not confident that they can handle themselves. So that was number one. Number two was going into combat because again, there was a big question mark of you don't know for sure how you're gonna react in those situations. And I felt pretty good that I knew how I was gonna act, but you know, you need to, you need to check the box. And so I checked that box, and I knew that I was gonna do fine, and that I did fine, and that I was brave and not scared and was able to detach myself and make decisions and make things happen. So that was good. And then the last one was getting married and having kids because now all of a sudden I have other humans that are directly relying on me for, as their, you know, their sole kinda leader. And, you know, realizing that this is the most important thing. You have to make this the most important thing in your life. And you're out of that game, too, you know? So you're no longer trying to-

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:37:05

        Of course

    30. JWJocko Willink1:37:06

        ... you're no longer trying to impress, you know, a girl or whatever because you got a girl.
13. 2:00:14 – 2:36:12

    Extreme Ownership applied: why he wrote the book, core principles, and closing recommendations

    1. TFTim Ferriss2:00:14

       Uh, but the, the, uh, I wanna talk about ownership, and, uh, could you explain your book and why you decided to write it?

    2. JWJocko Willink2:00:27

       So first of all, while I was still in the SEAL teams, you know, I had guys, 'cause they, they, once everyone knew I was getting out, I had guys saying, "Hey, you know, you need to write this stuff down. You need to pass on these lessons learned." And, you know, I did that in a, uh, in almost a doctrinal way, and I captured those lessons learned and, and passed those on. And then when I started working with civilian companies, uh, you know, Leif and I, my, my business partner, we'd started hearing the same thing, which is, "Hey, do you guys have a reference? Can we, you know, what if-- We wanna hand out some stuff to the rest of our people that couldn't make this," and, "Hey, you guys really changed the way this group is operating. We wanna spread that to the rest of our groups. Do you have a book we can give them? Do you have reference material?" And, you know, eventually we said, "Okay, we, we need to write something." And so, you know, from, from my perspective, this is, uh, an opportunity for us to pass on the lessons that we learned and relearned that have been, you know, some of them, some of the, some of the lessons we learned and, and talk about have been around for thousands of years. And some of them were, were discovered a little bit more recently, but they are definitely solid, and they've been very well tested in a variety of environments, starting with the harshest environment of them all, which is sustained violent urban combat. And then they've, we've brought them to dozens and dozens of companies, and we've keep hearing the same thing, which is these work.

    3. TFTim Ferriss2:02:03

       What, what's the explanation behind the title?

    4. JWJocko Willink2:02:09

       Actually came from an email that I sent to a, uh, you know, a grou- uh, a manager in a company. And, and the email basically said, we, when I was in the SEAL teams, and I was a troop commander, so I was in charge of Task Unit Bruiser, and we were getting ready to go on deployment. And occasionally, the commodore, which is a couple ranks above my boss, actually one rank above my boss is a guy named the Commodore, which is, you know, a, a full bird colonel if you're in the Marine Corps or the Army, and he's kind of in charge of all the SEAL teams on the West Coast. And so he would have occasional meetings where he'd bring in us, the troop commanders, and we're like the frontline guys.

    5. TFTim Ferriss2:02:50

       And this is West Coast of the US?

    6. JWJocko Willink2:02:51

       West Coast of the US. And the story that I told in this email wa- was that he would go around the room because he wants to get some direct feedback from the troops, and he'd ask somebody, you know, "Okay, what, what do you need?" And these guys are my peers. And, you know, someone would say, "Well, you know, the boots that we have are okay in the hot weather, but we're getting ready to be in a cooler environment. We need new boots, uh, and we need them by this date 'cause that's our, our next training block." "Okay, got it." And he'd get to the next person, say, "You know, when we're out at the desert training facility, there's no Wi-Fi internet, so our guys are disconnected, and, you know, we really need to get Wi-Fi out there." "Okay, got it." And the next guy would say, "We need more helicopter training support 'cause we don't feel like we're working around helicopters enough, and we really need that." And eventually he'd get to me, and he'd, you know, Commodore would say, "Jocko, what do you need?" And I would say, "We're good, sir." And I, I was stating the obvious which is, if I have problems, I'm gonna handle them, and I'm gonna take care of them, and I'm not gonna complain. I, I took extreme ownership of my world. And the way that worked twofold was when I did need something, it, number one, it was something significant, it was something real. And when I told the commodore, "Hey, boss, we need this right here," I, I, I would almost get it instantaneously because he knew that I really truly needed it. And so I, I'd written this, kind of told that story and, and talked about extreme ownership and to, and owning everything in your world. 'Cause the other piece of that is you, you complain. You know, people complain. They place blame on other people. A- and finally, you know, if your boss, if Tim's boss isn't giving you the support you need, whose fault is that?

    7. TFTim Ferriss2:04:37

       Hmm.

    8. JWJocko Willink2:04:38

       Whose fault is it? If your boss is not giving you what you need, whose fault is that?

    9. TFTim Ferriss2:04:42

       I suppose it's my fault.

    10. JWJocko Willink2:04:43

        Plenty people, plenty people will say, "Well, it's my boss's fault."

    11. TFTim Ferriss2:04:46

        Hmm.

    12. JWJocko Willink2:04:46

        No. It's actually your fault 'cause you haven't educated them, you haven't influenced them, you haven't, you haven't explained to them in a manner that they understand why you need this support that you need. And so that's extreme ownership. That's where the title came from.

    13. TFTim Ferriss2:04:58

        Or you've made them, like, like you, uh, I suppose alluded to, um, you've made them, uh, immune to your requests because you're the boy who cries wolf.

    14. JWJocko Willink2:05:10

        Exactly.

    15. TFTim Ferriss2:05:11

        And if you're constantly needy, they will determine that nothing is important, or, or it's not a real urgent, important request.

    16. JWJocko Willink2:05:19

        Yep.

    17. TFTim Ferriss2:05:20

        Um-

    18. JWJocko Willink2:05:21

        A- and that, that really, I mean, that's extreme ownership in a nutshell is you're taking responsibility for everything in your world, and there's no one else to blame. And when we do talk about bosses, you know, I, I, I tell this to people all the time 'cause, you know, I always hear complaint about people's bosses. And I tell people that I worked for every different type of boss you could imagine, you know? S- superb tactical geniuses that were incredible leaders of men, and I've worked for people that didn't know anything and were horrible. And I had the same relationship with all of them, which is I built up trust with them so that they trusted that I was gonna do the right thing, and they gave me the support I needed. And th- that's a, that's a r- I took ownership of those relationships to make sure that that was always the case. And that's another piece that I, you know, if you have a problem with your boss, it's not your boss's fault, it's your fault. And obviously it's the same thing down the chain of command as well.

    19. TFTim Ferriss2:06:17

        Mm-hmm. What, what are some of the principles, uh, or lessons that the companies you've worked with have found most valuable?

    20. JWJocko Willink2:06:31

        Well, cover and move is a big one.

    21. TFTim Ferriss2:06:33

        Cover and move.

    22. JWJocko Willink2:06:33

        Cover and move. So if you and I were going to attack a building across the street where there was an enemy, uh, I would get in a window here, and I would start shooting at them.

    23. TFTim Ferriss2:06:45

        Covering fire.

    24. JWJocko Willink2:06:46

        Covering fire. And you would move. When you heard me shooting, you would start to move, and you'd find a better tactical position. And then once you've gotten a better tactical position, you would start shooting, and I would move, and eventually we would get to a position where we could kill the enemy and take down the building. So that's called cover and move. And honestly, when I started talking to companies, I said to myself, "Well, how do I translate an actual gunfighting tactic?" Right? That's, that's all it is, is a gunfighting tactic. How do you translate that to, to a company, to a business? And as soon as I started talking to, you know, businesses, uh, I, I mean, the first business I talked to, I realized that, guess what? Every single business has multiple different elements within it, whether it's, you know, you've got an operational group, you've got a manufacturing group, you've got a sales group, and guess what? All those elements have absolutely got to work together, cover and move for each other. Because if I'm the sales guy and I sell something and you're the manufacturer and you don't manufacture it in time or it's faulty or whatever, th- w- we fail.

    25. TFTim Ferriss2:07:47

        Right.

    26. JWJocko Willink2:07:47

        We fail.

    27. TFTim Ferriss2:07:47

        Right.

    28. JWJocko Willink2:07:47

        And if you manufacture a bunch of perfect units and I can't sell any of them, guess what? We fail.

    29. TFTim Ferriss2:07:52

        Right.

    30. JWJocko Willink2:07:53

        So that, that's a huge one that, that people really grab onto because just about every company experiences some need to cover and move.

Episode duration: 2:36:12