KneesOverToesGuy — Workouts That Produce Wild Results and Lessons from Charles Poliquin

1. 0:00 – 0:42

   Preview

   1. BPBen Patrick0:00

      I remember going to visit her after she had a fall, and I'm, like, getting worried. Had her start coming to the gym. She fell in love with the sled. Eight years, she's been sledding regularly. She's very gentle with her program. She spends maybe f- 10, 15 minutes a day. Similarly, I work out only twice a week.

   2. TFTim Ferriss0:15

      Mm-hmm.

   3. BPBen Patrick0:16

      Me and my mom, we do all the same exercises, basically, just at different levels. My dad does different pieces of the programming to fix up old pains and stuff. So there's some [laughs] mixture of good genetics. Definitely not... Like, my dad never was able to grab the rim or anything like that.

   4. TFTim Ferriss0:29

      Yeah.

   5. BPBen Patrick0:29

      And I was the same. I went through my high school career unable to grab the rim, and now, okay, I'm 34, I've been dunking for over a decade without having a knee problem. For me, it's the fact that I can go play. That's what I train

2. 0:42 – 4:29

   How Ben went from Old Man Patrick to Knees Over Toes Guy.

   1. BPBen Patrick0:42

      for.

   2. TFTim Ferriss0:43

      Ben, nice to see you.

   3. BPBen Patrick0:45

      Hey, brother. Thank you.

   4. TFTim Ferriss0:46

      Nice to finally spend time together. We did a bit of a workout overview, recorded some video, so people will be able to find that, and we'll put links in the show notes. We'll talk more also about things you might pin for people who want a visual reference here.

   5. BPBen Patrick1:00

      Yeah.

   6. TFTim Ferriss1:00

      But let's go back in time. Nicknames. We were chatting a bit before recording. What was the nickname that we were discussing, and who gave it to you?

   7. BPBen Patrick1:11

      Yep. Had a high school basketball coach who started calling me Old Man.

   8. TFTim Ferriss1:15

      [laughs]

   9. BPBen Patrick1:16

      I was so stiff. It'd take me so long to warm up-

   10. TFTim Ferriss1:19

       Mm-hmm

   11. BPBen Patrick1:19

       ... compared to other players.

   12. TFTim Ferriss1:20

       Mm-hmm.

   13. BPBen Patrick1:21

       I thought I could... I knew I wasn't built well for basketball. I thought I could work my way.

   14. TFTim Ferriss1:27

       Mm-hmm.

   15. BPBen Patrick1:28

       So I was just doing crazy workouts from the time I was maybe nine years old.

   16. TFTim Ferriss1:31

       Mm-hmm.

   17. BPBen Patrick1:32

       So by 12, chronic knee pain. So even by high school, I couldn't get low in my legs. So I think during all that puberty time, things weren't forming right-

   18. TFTim Ferriss1:41

       Mm-hmm

   19. BPBen Patrick1:41

       ... because I was so stiff. I wasn't getting into my legs the way I should. Started calling me Old Man. Yeah. [laughs]

   20. TFTim Ferriss1:48

       Yeah. [laughs] So, so we've got Old Man Patrick in high school. Flash forward, now you're known as Kneesovertoesguy.

   21. BPBen Patrick1:58

       [laughs]

   22. TFTim Ferriss1:59

       So something happened in between those two.

   23. BPBen Patrick2:01

       Yep.

   24. TFTim Ferriss2:02

       What were the... And we can approach this any number of ways. You could explain why the name, or you could talk about maybe catalyzing moments or findings that set you on the path that led you to become Kneesovertoesguy.

   25. BPBen Patrick2:18

       Absolutely. And as you alluded to, on my Instagram, YouTube, it's pinned where this kind of stuff we're talking about, someone can just go look at it and see it visually, like, almost in order.

   26. TFTim Ferriss2:31

       Mm-hmm.

   27. BPBen Patrick2:32

       So the chronic pains and stiffness, doctors did think around 14, probably something happened I should have had surgery on.

   28. TFTim Ferriss2:41

       Mm-hmm.

   29. BPBen Patrick2:42

       Didn't have surgery. Different things started stacking up. By 18, I then did have surgery. Partial kneecap replacement, like part of my kneecap was just floating there.

   30. TFTim Ferriss2:53

       Mm.
3. 4:29 – 11:46

   Backward sled dragging for safe strength building and rehab.

   1. TFTim Ferriss4:29

      so if you were to, say, be in a squat position, keeping your shins vertical or your knees are aligned over your ankles, that would be the, let's just call it, pre-exposure to Poliquin-

   2. BPBen Patrick4:44

      Yeah

   3. TFTim Ferriss4:45

      ... sacred cow, at least in a lot of the sort of exercise science worlds.

   4. BPBen Patrick4:49

      Yep.

   5. TFTim Ferriss4:49

      Do not let your knees travel over your toes.

   6. BPBen Patrick4:52

      Yeah.

   7. TFTim Ferriss4:52

      Right? Keep your shins vertical.

   8. BPBen Patrick4:54

      Yep.

   9. TFTim Ferriss4:54

      So Charles is saying quite the opposite.

   10. BPBen Patrick4:57

       Yeah. And good point there. It was totally understandable why that occurred. 1970s, exercise science is becoming a thing in school.

   11. TFTim Ferriss5:06

       Mm-hmm.

   12. BPBen Patrick5:07

       And they found that when the knee goes over the toe-

   13. TFTim Ferriss5:10

       Mm-hmm

   14. BPBen Patrick5:10

       ... then there's more pressure on the knee.

   15. TFTim Ferriss5:13

       Yep.

   16. BPBen Patrick5:13

       So what went into textbooks was showing when you exercise, don't let your knee over your toes. Now, for someone to compare, think about stepping down the stairs, and stop.

   17. TFTim Ferriss5:26

       Mm.

   18. BPBen Patrick5:27

       Take a step downstairs, stop. You're loading your knee over your toes every single step you take downstairs.

   19. TFTim Ferriss5:34

       Mm-hmm.

   20. BPBen Patrick5:35

       So when I started studying Charles Poliquin, because of what I had been through, for me, instantly, I knew there was something here, 'cause I had tried all the mainstream methods of no knees over toes.

   21. TFTim Ferriss5:50

       Mm-hmm.

   22. BPBen Patrick5:51

       So the first thing then that I could tell that allowed me to get off the painkillers was dragging a sled backwards.

   23. TFTim Ferriss6:00

       Mm-hmm.

   24. BPBen Patrick6:00

       So every step I take, my knee is over my toes. It's almost like if someone walked backward up a hill To rehab rather than going down the hill

   25. TFTim Ferriss6:10

       Mm-hmm

   26. BPBen Patrick6:11

       And that's actually the progression of the rehab, is walking backwards, trying to add resistance to walking backwards, which is gentler, to then I use a slant board, but someone could really... You could roll up a towel to elevate your heel. You could start with your heel flat. Like, you don't have to even elevate the heel to start, where you actually work on stepping down. So you're actually controlling the motion-

   27. TFTim Ferriss6:31

       Mm

   28. BPBen Patrick6:32

       ... at your pain-free level of stepping down, even if you can't. I couldn't do a six-inch step.

   29. TFTim Ferriss6:35

       Mm-hmm.

   30. BPBen Patrick6:36

       I could maybe control a couple inches, and you're using high repetitions as if you were a gymnast.
4. 11:46 – 12:35

   Full range of motion squatting (deep squats vs. 90-degree limitation).

   1. TFTim Ferriss11:46

      What other ingredients were added to the cocktail outside of the backwards sled pulls?

   2. BPBen Patrick11:52

      So you had the backward sled pulls, and then it was really clear that he was getting people into a full range of motion squat, and that was also something that growing up my whole life in basketball, it was like, "Don't do any deep squats."

   3. TFTim Ferriss12:06

      Mm-hmm.

   4. BPBen Patrick12:06

      Your knee goes over your toes So sort of don't go below 90 degrees and don't let your knee over your toes were the two prevailing things. And I went to six, eight, 10 trainers, so I'm not just, this is not just like a, maybe that was bad luck that none of those trainers knew differently. It does seem like it was the prevailing way. And having been on basketball teams now, having coached, I could safely estimate that 99% of basketball teams don't squat with a full range of motion.

   5. TFTim Ferriss12:34

      Mm-hmm.

5. 12:35 – 14:50

   “Strength is gained in the range it is trained.” — Charles Poliquin

   1. TFTim Ferriss12:35

      And I want to, I'll- I'll throw out a Poliquinism. He had quite a few of these. At some point, I'll tell you the origin story, how I connected with Charles, which is pretty funny. But this is one of his lines, and this is, I'll give credit where credit's due. This is from outside, online, but, "Strength is gained in the range it is trained."

   2. BPBen Patrick12:53

      [laughs]

   3. TFTim Ferriss12:54

      Right? Very, uh, Susian, as they put it. And you just see this over and over again, and I've interviewed, for instance, Coach Christopher Sommer, who used to be the men's national gymnastics coach, and you look at a lot of, say, cases of what people might consider inflexibility, and it's just the body being very smart to guard itself against injury where it is weak at the extent of your range of motion, right? And when you start to develop strength at the end range, all of a sudden, bada bing, bada boom, your, quote-unquote, "flexibility" improves, right? Because the body is very, very intelligent, and it's guarding you against injury.

   4. BPBen Patrick13:34

      Yep.

   5. TFTim Ferriss13:35

      So sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to mention the, the Poliquinism, because I think it puts a fine point on some of what you're saying, right? It's like if you're-

   6. BPBen Patrick13:42

      I love it

   7. TFTim Ferriss13:43

      ... never getting into a full squat position, if you ever engage in anything that puts you into those positions, your foot slips while you're playing intramural soccer, who knows, right? You're gonna be potentially in a world of hurt.

   8. BPBen Patrick13:56

      No, I appreciate that, and I think to make it an effective podcast for people-

   9. TFTim Ferriss14:01

      Mm-hmm

   10. BPBen Patrick14:01

       ... please keep chiming in. Even for our body, this is the mindset, the efficiency, the 80% of the results from 20%. This is the stuff that helps me make my system.

   11. TFTim Ferriss14:13

       Mm-hmm.

   12. BPBen Patrick14:13

       So it's hugely inspired by that, and outside of my videos- [laughs]

   13. TFTim Ferriss14:18

       Mm-hmm

   14. BPBen Patrick14:19

       ... I don't have a ton to say here, so please keep it-

   15. TFTim Ferriss14:21

       [laughs]

   16. BPBen Patrick14:22

       ... keep it coming. Make it-

   17. TFTim Ferriss14:23

       No

   18. BPBen Patrick14:23

       ... make it interesting for people.

   19. TFTim Ferriss14:23

       I think you've got plenty to say. I'll keep prompting.

   20. BPBen Patrick14:25

       Yeah.

   21. TFTim Ferriss14:26

       But please keep going.

   22. BPBen Patrick14:26

       On the deep squat, what I have to offer is lots of experience trying to help people who can't figure out how to apply this stuff.

   23. TFTim Ferriss14:34

       Mm-hmm.

   24. BPBen Patrick14:35

       Deep squats hurting is super common.

   25. TFTim Ferriss14:37

       Mm-hmm.

   26. BPBen Patrick14:38

       People feeling like they don't have the mobility to get into a deep squat, elevating your heels a bit can help people get lower on a squat, and holding a weight out in front of you reduces the pressure on

6. 14:50 – 15:53

   ATG split squat (front foot elevated split squat).

   1. BPBen Patrick14:50

      the knee.

   2. TFTim Ferriss14:51

      Do you recommend people do what people would envision as a normal squat, so both feet on the ground, same plane, or one exercise that you're very well known for, the ATG split squat or front foot elevated split squat? Would you have them start with that in place of the prototypical squat? How do you think about that?

   3. BPBen Patrick15:14

      I see it in relation to age, almost like a reverse system, meaning my kids are three and five. [laughs] Their squats are incredible.

   4. TFTim Ferriss15:23

      [laughs]

   5. BPBen Patrick15:23

      I'm not like, "Wait until you pro-" No, no, they like-

   6. TFTim Ferriss15:25

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   7. BPBen Patrick15:26

      So it's almost like in youth, my whole system for the knees is if I can have you comfortable and able to be getting stronger, controlling a full range of motion squat, where you feel like you don't have to stop before you get all the way down, but also where you feel like you don't have to bounce to get out of it.

   8. TFTim Ferriss15:42

      Mm-hmm.

   9. BPBen Patrick15:42

      Like, where you're able to own it, you can control it all the way down, pause, and then explode up without pain, able to get stronger. Kids naturally have that.

   10. TFTim Ferriss15:51

       Mm-hmm.

   11. BPBen Patrick15:52

       And so

7. 15:53 – 23:26

   Heel elevation and counterbalancing techniques.

   1. BPBen Patrick15:53

      when I'm coaching, I volunteer at a school. I've had to coach 50 kids at a time. I set up 10 slant boards. Some kids need to elevate the heel, some don't. They're able to back their heels up, whatever they want.

   2. TFTim Ferriss16:06

      Mm-hmm.

   3. BPBen Patrick16:07

      Everyone can get down into a deep squat without pain.

   4. TFTim Ferriss16:10

      Mm-hmm.

   5. BPBen Patrick16:10

      Some need to hold some weight out in front of them-

   6. TFTim Ferriss16:13

      Yep

   7. BPBen Patrick16:13

      ... to get down there, but the younger they are, 100% can do it. Like, all little toddlers can deep squat.

   8. TFTim Ferriss16:19

      Why does the weight in front of you help someone to get into a squatted position, whether the heels are elevated or not?

   9. BPBen Patrick16:27

      It's simply a counterbalance.

   10. TFTim Ferriss16:28

       Mm-hmm.

   11. BPBen Patrick16:29

       So when you go to squat down and you think about that, for someone with knee pain, you think about that pressure, holding the weight out in front, you can actually lean back a bit.

   12. TFTim Ferriss16:38

       Mm-hmm.

   13. BPBen Patrick16:39

       Your knee doesn't have to go as far over your toes. So I'm trying to help people get better at knees over toes, not work through pain in the process.

   14. TFTim Ferriss16:47

       Mm-hmm.

   15. BPBen Patrick16:48

       Gradually coax that ability, or if they've already got it, we can fortify it super easily.

   16. TFTim Ferriss16:52

       Mm-hmm.

   17. BPBen Patrick16:53

       A progression using common weights is, let's say you hold, 'cause it's mostly gonna be adults listening to this.

   18. TFTim Ferriss17:00

       Mm-hmm.

   19. BPBen Patrick17:00

       Let's say you roll up a towel on the floor, and you lift your heels up onto it to simulate some more of that mobility to get low, and you hold a 25-pound plate out in front of you. You get where you can lower down pain-free in a squat, let's say five reps, controlling down. Okay, now let's say you hold a 45-pound plate, not all the way out in front of you.

   20. TFTim Ferriss17:19

       Mm-hmm.

   21. BPBen Patrick17:20

       Just in front of your knees. Get to where that's pain-free, five reps, let's say. Okay, now you hold a 45 or more pound kettlebell, not far out in front of you, but kind of above-

   22. TFTim Ferriss17:32

       Right

   23. BPBen Patrick17:32

       ... your thighs now.

   24. TFTim Ferriss17:33

       Closer to your center of gravity.

   25. BPBen Patrick17:34

       Yeah. And then, depending on a person's goals, what would be even closer than that would be a bar on front.

   26. TFTim Ferriss17:40

       Mm-hmm.

   27. BPBen Patrick17:41

       So depending on sports goals, I find with all students, I want them to be able to hold a kettlebell and get down in a deep squat without pain. That's a pretty good... I have to get down and pick up one kid, two kids. I got a third kid on the way. [laughs] I got, like, I have to squat down, 'cause if you gotta pick up two toddlers, you can't just bend your back over. You can for one. Think about trying to pick up two little bodies. You got to deep squat. So I got to deep squat with some load.

   28. TFTim Ferriss18:07

       Mm-hmm.

   29. BPBen Patrick18:08

       Saying everyone has to barbell squat, that's just not true.

   30. TFTim Ferriss18:11

       Mm-hmm.
8. 23:26 – 23:42

   Ben’s mother’s transformation — from hip deterioration to sprinting at age 71.

   1. BPBen Patrick23:26

      levels. But that split squat, she credits with fixing her hip problems. She's got great mobility with the grandkids. She's slowly coaxed my dad along, so my dad does different pieces of the programming to fix up old pains and stuff. So

9. 23:42 – 24:21

   Ben’s vertical jump progression — unable to grab rim in high school to dunking at 34.

   1. BPBen Patrick23:42

      there's some mixture [laughs] of good genetics. Definitely not... Like, my dad never was able to grab the rim or anything like that.

   2. TFTim Ferriss23:48

      Yeah.

   3. BPBen Patrick23:48

      And I was the same.

   4. TFTim Ferriss23:49

      In basketball.

   5. BPBen Patrick23:49

      I went through my high school career unable to grab the rim.

   6. TFTim Ferriss23:52

      Mm-hmm.

   7. BPBen Patrick23:52

      And now, not that much proof, but, okay, I'm 34. I've been dunking for over a decade without having a knee problem. Your video guy filmed me dunking out on that concrete court-

   8. TFTim Ferriss24:03

      Yeah

   9. BPBen Patrick24:04

      ... and for me, it's the fact that I can go play, and that's what I train for.

   10. TFTim Ferriss24:09

       Mm-hmm.

   11. BPBen Patrick24:09

       We don't really know genetically, do I have good genetics, bad genetics? Somewhere in between.

   12. TFTim Ferriss24:12

       Yeah, I'm not trying to-

   13. BPBen Patrick24:13

       Yeah. [laughs]

   14. TFTim Ferriss24:13

       I just... It was more, like, my 71-year-old mom is sprinting. [laughs]

   15. BPBen Patrick24:17

       Yeah.

   16. TFTim Ferriss24:17

       I'm like, "Wait a minute. Hold the press." Uh, I just wanted to unpack that, so

10. 24:21 – 25:51

    Most effective exercises Ben’s mom might recommend.

    1. TFTim Ferriss24:21

       thank you for that. If I were to ask your mom, "All right. You can only pick three or four exercises, that's it, that you get to continue with. You've had eight, eight years to trial and error and try a bunch of stuff," what do you think she would respond with of the like, three or four?

    2. BPBen Patrick24:39

       I know she would do the sled forward and backward.

    3. TFTim Ferriss24:43

       Mm-hmm.

    4. BPBen Patrick24:44

       That became way of life at our gym, and she's kept it up ever since. I know she would do that full range of motion, which varies based on the person what that means.

    5. TFTim Ferriss24:55

       Mm-hmm.

    6. BPBen Patrick24:55

       But where you're not stopping short, you're embracing your flexibility.

    7. TFTim Ferriss24:58

       Mm-hmm.

    8. BPBen Patrick24:58

       Full range of motion split squat. I know those would be her top two, and then I know she would throw something in for the posterior.

    9. TFTim Ferriss25:04

       Okay.

    10. BPBen Patrick25:04

        I'll have to ask her what is her favorite. Today in the video, I showed the three main different posterior exercises.

    11. TFTim Ferriss25:10

        If you just had to hazard a guess, what do you think she might choose?

    12. BPBen Patrick25:13

        I think she would choose the way that we use that back extension machine because she works from a desk, and so particularly when you put that full split squat, which stretches the front of the hip-

    13. TFTim Ferriss25:23

        Mm-hmm

    14. BPBen Patrick25:23

        ... with then where you're getting to squeeze those glutes-

    15. TFTim Ferriss25:27

        Yep

    16. BPBen Patrick25:28

        ... that sets that pelvis, that it's almost-

    17. TFTim Ferriss25:30

        Yeah

    18. BPBen Patrick25:30

        ... like whether someone has posterior or anterior, it seems to benefit everyone-

    19. TFTim Ferriss25:34

        Mm-hmm

    20. BPBen Patrick25:34

        ... because you're getting both sides-

    21. TFTim Ferriss25:36

        Yeah

    22. BPBen Patrick25:36

        ... of that equation. I think she would do that one.

    23. TFTim Ferriss25:39

        Mm-hmm. All right. And, uh, again, just a reminder for folks, we're gonna link to everything, and you're gonna have videos pinned.

    24. BPBen Patrick25:45

        Yep.

    25. TFTim Ferriss25:45

        Uh, just search Kneesovertoesguy [chuckles] for all the platforms-

    26. BPBen Patrick25:49

        Yeah [chuckles]

    27. TFTim Ferriss25:50

        ... and you'll find those.

11. 25:51 – 32:37

    Ben and I reflect on what Charles Poliquin (RIP) gave to us.

    1. TFTim Ferriss25:51

       What else did you pick up from Poliquin, if anything comes to mind? Let's start there, and then I'll trade with you.

    2. BPBen Patrick25:58

       [exhales] So many gems. Ugh, that's a tough question.

    3. TFTim Ferriss26:04

       It is. I'll-

    4. BPBen Patrick26:05

       Oh, man

    5. TFTim Ferriss26:05

       ... sadly, Charles is no longer with us.

    6. BPBen Patrick26:08

       I know.

    7. TFTim Ferriss26:09

       I actually got the phone call about it pretty much immediately after, after he died, which was very sad, very tragic.

    8. BPBen Patrick26:17

       Yeah.

    9. TFTim Ferriss26:17

       Way too early. But anything else come to mind?

    10. BPBen Patrick26:21

        Okay. So-

    11. TFTim Ferriss26:21

        I could buy you some time if you want.

    12. BPBen Patrick26:23

        He was trying to master everything.

    13. TFTim Ferriss26:26

        Yeah.

    14. BPBen Patrick26:27

        From, right, he was helping bodybuilders, athletes. The thing he told me, so only one time when I finally had the money and freedom to go see, he came to America, did a seminar. This was towards the end.

    15. TFTim Ferriss26:42

        Mm-hmm.

    16. BPBen Patrick26:43

        And he said his only regret was not getting into flexibility sooner, and you know he was a wealth of strength knowledge, a lot of that strength relating to range of motion. That definitely left an impact on me-

    17. TFTim Ferriss26:57

        Mm-hmm

    18. BPBen Patrick26:57

        ... that he wished he had gotten into that sooner, and the conclusions that I've come to, as you can see my style of training, the way I stretch wouldn't be how someone would normally think of stretching.

    19. TFTim Ferriss27:08

        Mm.

    20. BPBen Patrick27:08

        But just the idea of your strength and your flexibility, really getting those into harmony to where the positions that you're flexible and you feel strong in those positions.

    21. TFTim Ferriss27:17

        Yeah.

    22. BPBen Patrick27:17

        And so I've really explored that deeply now compared to, let's say, look, people are gonna have way more experience in bodybuilding, power lifting, strongman, these kind of things, and Charles had way more experience there than me. So I think that was... If someone goes to my pages and sees the style that I train-

    23. TFTim Ferriss27:37

        Mm-hmm

    24. BPBen Patrick27:37

        ... I feel like that was the gem that was just what I needed that gave me now, like, the systems that I love.

    25. TFTim Ferriss27:44

        And also, getting strength and flexibility or mobility and harmony can sometimes mean that you're training both at the same time, right?

    26. BPBen Patrick27:51

        That's right.

    27. TFTim Ferriss27:52

        Often can mean that.

    28. BPBen Patrick27:53

        Yeah.

    29. TFTim Ferriss27:53

        And we were recording earlier, and not that I'm gonna win any gold medals in the split squat, but like, my range of motion's pretty good, all things considered.

    30. BPBen Patrick28:01

        Mm-hmm.
12. 32:37 – 35:12

    How backwards sled pulling became a revered exercise.

    1. TFTim Ferriss32:37

       Mm. I'm just gonna pause to ask you to repeat-

    2. BPBen Patrick32:39

       Yeah

    3. TFTim Ferriss32:39

       ... something you told me earlier. Where did Charles figure out the backwards sled pulling?

    4. BPBen Patrick32:44

       Oh. Oh, man, such a cool story.

    5. TFTim Ferriss32:46

       [laughs] If you wanna talk about pulling from unusual places.

    6. BPBen Patrick32:48

       Yeah. Yeah. So Charles, to the source, Westside Barbell in Ohio, led by Louie Simmons, who was creating the strongest powerlifters in the world, and Louie was [laughs] jealous of these Finland powerlifters-

    7. TFTim Ferriss33:05

       Mm

    8. BPBen Patrick33:05

       ... of their squats, and they said that their secret weapon was their day job was dragging trees.

    9. TFTim Ferriss33:11

       [laughs]

    10. BPBen Patrick33:12

        So Louie invented the idea of dragging weight as a form of exercise, and then that became a way of life at Westside Barbell. One of Louie Simmons' disciples, Dave Tate, who-

    11. TFTim Ferriss33:24

        Mm

    12. BPBen Patrick33:24

        ... made the... If you've heard of EliteFTS.

    13. TFTim Ferriss33:26

        Yep.

    14. BPBen Patrick33:26

        They made the prowler-style sled.

    15. TFTim Ferriss33:28

        Mm.

    16. BPBen Patrick33:28

        All kinds of amazing stuff. I'm gonna see Dave in, in two weeks actually, for the first time. Dave has a quote that's like, "We didn't have warm-ups." It was Louie Simmons just telling him, "Hey, before you train, go out to the parking lot and drag the sled."

    17. TFTim Ferriss33:43

        Mm-hmm.

    18. BPBen Patrick33:43

        He's like, "We didn't have shit called warm-ups. It was called the stuff you do before you train."

    19. TFTim Ferriss33:47

        [laughs]

    20. BPBen Patrick33:48

        And people are like, "How long? How many sets and reps?" I, I don't know. It was X amount of times down the parking lot. "Oh, how long was the parking lot?" Don't know.

    21. TFTim Ferriss33:54

        [laughs]

    22. BPBen Patrick33:55

        Uh, so it was cool, the history there, but it was cool how Charles Poliquin would just go to the source.

    23. TFTim Ferriss34:00

        Mm-hmm.

    24. BPBen Patrick34:00

        He'd go to the source in Europe or Ohio or wherever it was. He would go to the source, and then it was, like I told you, it was this article of where he used the backward sled for knee rehab for this Olympic athlete that kind of, I don't know, that kinda, like, gave me a stepping stone to all this stuff.

    25. TFTim Ferriss34:15

        Yeah. If people also want to look up Louie Simmons and his writing online, a lot of amazing tidbits to be found to this day in a lot of his writing. And Westside Barbell, for a period of time, it was just one of those factories for mutants. And of course, there's some selection bias if people are traveling to the Mecca to station themselves there to train. There's a little bit of selection bias, but the results were just so incredible.

    26. BPBen Patrick34:42

        Yep.

    27. TFTim Ferriss34:43

        And the number of world [laughs] records broken and the number of innovations, whether that's, say, chains to provide more resistance as you get into stronger ranges of motion with whether it's deadlift or anything else, I mean, bands and so on. I mean, a lot of what you see that is propagated throughout the gym universe started there.

    28. BPBen Patrick35:06

        Yep.

    29. TFTim Ferriss35:07

        Or at least was codified and sort of formalized in some way there.

    30. BPBen Patrick35:11

        Yep.

13. 35:12 – 38:15

    Mr. Universe Bob Gajda’s contributions to Ben’s regimen.

    1. BPBen Patrick35:12

       So that was a great one. One that I think would be inaccurate if we missed, there was a bodybuilder named Bob Gajda, G-A-J-D-A.

    2. TFTim Ferriss35:23

       Hmm.

    3. BPBen Patrick35:23

       Bob Gajda.

    4. TFTim Ferriss35:25

       Don't know that name.

    5. BPBen Patrick35:26

       He was Mr. Universe right before bodybuilding really blew up, and now these are his words. He worked at the Chicago YMCA. His passion was helping get kids off the streets, off drugs, doing bodybuilding. He's Mr. Universe. He goes into the lockers one day and sees people shooting up drugs, steroids. Like, this was-

    6. TFTim Ferriss35:44

       Mm

    7. BPBen Patrick35:44

       ... the beginning of steroids. And when I say this, people are like, "Oh, no, Bob was on steroids, too." Look, this is Bob's story.

    8. TFTim Ferriss35:51

       Yeah.

    9. BPBen Patrick35:51

       Bob's story, what you can look up is he was Mr. Olympia when he quit.

    10. TFTim Ferriss35:56

        Hmm.

    11. BPBen Patrick35:56

        Not a lot of people are gonna quit right when, guess what he was getting offered, the first protein shake deals. So there wasn't money in what he was doing. All of a sudden, there was money in bodybuilding.

    12. TFTim Ferriss36:09

        Mm-hmm.

    13. BPBen Patrick36:09

        And guys were doing steroids, and he quit.

    14. TFTim Ferriss36:12

        Mm.

    15. BPBen Patrick36:13

        When someone turns down money, [laughs] I feel like there's a little, you know...

    16. TFTim Ferriss36:16

        Mm.

    17. BPBen Patrick36:16

        I believe what he's saying.

    18. TFTim Ferriss36:17

        Mm-hmm.

    19. BPBen Patrick36:18

        And he wound up then getting into sort of like my passion of helping people enjoy life without breaking down, and he invented this Device that he called a DARD, D-A-R-D. I think it was dynamic axial resistance device. Okay?

    20. TFTim Ferriss36:35

        [laughs] Rolls off the tongue.

    21. BPBen Patrick36:36

        It didn't catch on. By the time I was studying this, you couldn't even buy it anywhere. It didn't turn into a, a business that worked out, but it allowed you to do the opposite of a calf raise-

    22. TFTim Ferriss36:46

        Mm-hmm

    23. BPBen Patrick36:46

        ... and strengthen the front shin muscles.

    24. TFTim Ferriss36:48

        Oh, got it. Tibialis anterior.

    25. BPBen Patrick36:50

        Yeah.

    26. TFTim Ferriss36:50

        Mm-hmm.

    27. BPBen Patrick36:50

        So one of the things I do that's really unusual, and Charles Poliquin did calf training, did tibialis training. Lots of coaches have, have done this. Bob was the creator and really had a big impact on me and in my workout style, which I hadn't seen anyone doing. I go from the resistance forward and backward, like with the sled, to then working my lower leg muscles. So with the sledding, you're pushing through your feet in various ways. I mean, you're working all kinds of stuff, but my, my mindset was like, "Okay, move the body forward and backward, then start addressing the body from the ground up. Let's get some extra abil- Like, before we even get into the knees," I found extra desensitization before getting into the knee work by doing the lower leg work after the sled work. Maybe it was just because the sled burns your legs and you get a little break.

    28. TFTim Ferriss37:42

        [laughs]

    29. BPBen Patrick37:42

        But-

    30. TFTim Ferriss37:43

        Yeah
14. 38:15 – 39:12

    ATG prioritizes offering American-made products when possible.

    1. TFTim Ferriss38:15

       [laughs]

    2. BPBen Patrick38:15

       Yeah. So with the Kneesovertoesguy stuff, I could see, okay, I've got pretty good skill here at, at helping people understand this stuff.

    3. TFTim Ferriss38:24

       Mm-hmm.

    4. BPBen Patrick38:25

       And so I think tib bar, and now it's a pretty common device. Like, you can even go on Amazon and buy-

    5. TFTim Ferriss38:30

       Really?

    6. BPBen Patrick38:30

       ... tib bars.

    7. TFTim Ferriss38:31

       Huh.

    8. BPBen Patrick38:31

       I mean, there's like 10 sellers now. I have by far the lowest price for an American-made tib bar.

    9. TFTim Ferriss38:36

       Mm-hmm.

    10. BPBen Patrick38:36

        I don't sell the most tib bars. Pretty much anything that I make in America, someone's gonna make more money copying in China.

    11. TFTim Ferriss38:42

        Mm-hmm.

    12. BPBen Patrick38:42

        And that's actually, at first it seemed annoying, but now I'm like, it's actually pretty cool. Like, everyone wins.

    13. TFTim Ferriss38:47

        Mm-hmm.

    14. BPBen Patrick38:47

        Like, I can make a nice living pursuing American-made-

    15. TFTim Ferriss38:51

        Mm

    16. BPBen Patrick38:51

        ... on everything I do, and like people are gonna copy it.

    17. TFTim Ferriss38:54

        Mm-hmm.

    18. BPBen Patrick38:54

        And so because the price is gonna be higher American-made.

    19. TFTim Ferriss38:57

        Mm-hmm.

    20. BPBen Patrick38:58

        All right, everyone wins. You can get it cheaper from someone making it in China, and that doesn't mean all my stuff is made in America. I'm pursuing all my stuff made in America.

    21. TFTim Ferriss39:05

        Mm. Mm.

    22. BPBen Patrick39:05

        And, and anything on my website, I don't play games with people. It says ATG USA, then you know-

    23. TFTim Ferriss39:10

        Mm-hmm

    24. BPBen Patrick39:11

        ... if it says that it's made in

15. 39:12 – 40:24

    Tibialis raises without equipment.

    1. BPBen Patrick39:12

       America. So this was a really cool device, particularly for rehab. But even for me, like what I showed you in my video, you can put your butt against the wall with no equipment whatsoever, raise your toes, and do that for a while and burn out and get a reverse calf raise, a tibialis raise.

    2. TFTim Ferriss39:27

       Yeah. I'll just paint a picture for folks. So if you're standing facing away from a wall, maybe your heels are a foot away from the wall, your heels.

    3. BPBen Patrick39:34

       One to two feet, yeah.

    4. TFTim Ferriss39:35

       Yeah, one to two feet. Then you lean back against the wall. Now take your upper back off of the wall-

    5. BPBen Patrick39:41

       Yep

    6. TFTim Ferriss39:41

       ... so it's just kind of your hips and low back against the wall.

    7. BPBen Patrick39:44

       Yep.

    8. TFTim Ferriss39:44

       So you're not cheating. Your legs are locked, right?

    9. BPBen Patrick39:47

       Yep.

    10. TFTim Ferriss39:47

        Your knees are locked.

    11. BPBen Patrick39:48

        Yeah.

    12. TFTim Ferriss39:48

        And then you're lifting your toes to the greatest extent that you can. And the next point you added to that where I was like, "Oh, that's actually very smart," and it's particularly, I would say, helpful for someone like me who's, I've basically torn everything in both ankles, [laughs] too many heel hooks and nonsense way back in the day, that basically lifting the foot as much as possible, then going down on the pinky side, then coming up and going down on the big toe side and alternating back and forth like that-

    13. BPBen Patrick40:19

        Yeah

    14. TFTim Ferriss40:19

        ... I could see helping also with some of the lateral stability issues that I have.

    15. BPBen Patrick40:23

        Yep.

16. 40:24 – 43:19

    Why I included the ATG wrist bar in a recent 5-Bullet Friday.

    1. TFTim Ferriss40:24

       So [laughs] we were chatting a bit before recording, uh, about some of your different pieces of equipment, and I told you that I really liked your wrist bar.

    2. BPBen Patrick40:31

       [laughs]

    3. TFTim Ferriss40:31

       So the wrist bar, imagine a baton like you would hand off to someone in a relay race, but at one end, half of it is thick enough, I don't know what the exact diameter is, let's call it two, two and a half inches, that you can plate load. You can put an Olympic plate-

    4. BPBen Patrick40:49

       Yeah

    5. TFTim Ferriss40:49

       ... on that and then secure it, which makes it very interesting because you can work with progressive resistance, right? And for me, that was important and will be important. I'm six weeks after elbow surgery, so I'm not quite there yet. But for sort of supination and pronation-

    6. BPBen Patrick41:05

       Yep

    7. TFTim Ferriss41:05

       ... whether I'm doing isometrics or otherwise. And it's very small, very portable. [laughs]

    8. BPBen Patrick41:11

       Yeah.

    9. TFTim Ferriss41:12

       And, uh, one of the advantages I... You know, we were chatting a bit. Well, but why don't you just tell the story, and then I can add some color if need be.

    10. BPBen Patrick41:20

        Yeah. Well-

    11. TFTim Ferriss41:21

        I put this bar in 5-Bullet Friday, which is my newsletter-

    12. BPBen Patrick41:24

        Yeah

    13. TFTim Ferriss41:24

        ... that goes out to 2 million plus subscribers. [laughs]

    14. BPBen Patrick41:27

        There's few moments I look back at just, like, sheer luck, like when you won something at the fair that you thought you wouldn't. And one of those highlight, just lucky moments is we're just seeing the wrist bar sales just going nuts. [laughs]

    15. TFTim Ferriss41:41

        [laughs]

    16. BPBen Patrick41:41

        So my staff are like, "What the heck is going on?" [laughs] Like, "Why are we selling so many wrist bar?" And, and we quickly traced down that it was because of you.

    17. TFTim Ferriss41:48

        [laughs]

    18. BPBen Patrick41:49

        That's like an all-time business moment, and that's made in America, so we were able to basically just make them to order and just quickly service everyone.

    19. TFTim Ferriss41:55

        Right. So that last part is important, right?

    20. BPBen Patrick41:58

        [laughs] Yeah.

    21. TFTim Ferriss41:58

        'Cause I think you mentioned it was, like, more units than, like, [laughs] the history of the bar up to that point or something.

    22. BPBen Patrick42:04

        Yeah.

    23. TFTim Ferriss42:05

        And I try to give people a heads-up if something is gonna land in the newsletter because what can end up happening, as one of my fans termed it, the hug of death. So the hug of death can take a number of different forms. It could be a website crashing, but it could also be where someone has a long Lead time on ordering inventory, let's just say they're getting it from China, and not that that's intrinsically bad. I'm not saying that-

    24. BPBen Patrick42:30

        No

    25. TFTim Ferriss42:30

        ... that is.

    26. BPBen Patrick42:31

        Yeah.

    27. TFTim Ferriss42:31

        But let's just say for them to get an order, they have certain minimums and so on, and they believe that these sales from the newsletter are going to continue at that velocity.

    28. BPBen Patrick42:41

        Yeah.

    29. TFTim Ferriss42:41

        And they only had 100 in stock, now they order 2,000 because they expect to be able to move those, and they don't. The hug of death is, "Uh-oh, I'm not gonna make this money back."

    30. BPBen Patrick42:50

        Yeah.
17. 43:19 – 49:27

    Ben’s videos he most recommends.

    1. BPBen Patrick43:19

       and-

    2. TFTim Ferriss43:19

       What other principles, topics, exercises would you like to talk about? Maybe one way to edge into a starting point for that is before coming here to do this recording, and we, we did some movement earlier, I did what I've done a, a number of different times, 'cause your name has come up over the years and I've looked at your videos and watched a lot of them, sorted your videos by most popular.

    3. BPBen Patrick43:47

       Hmm.

    4. TFTim Ferriss43:47

       I'm sure a lot of people do that as a way to-

    5. BPBen Patrick43:48

       Yeah

    6. TFTim Ferriss43:49

       ... produce like a manageable shopping list of videos. So my question for you is: Which videos were not anointed by the YouTube gods or, for whatever reason, have not had the views that you would like?

    7. BPBen Patrick44:04

       Yeah.

    8. TFTim Ferriss44:04

       Where you're like, "If I could point out one video that I wish people paid more attention to," could be any video. But, like, your greatest hits don't need the help, in a sense. Maybe you'd like to mention one of them, but if there's a lesser-known video where you're like, "Man, this one's really, I think, quite important and it hasn't had the visibility." [laughs]

    9. BPBen Patrick44:27

       So I just made a video really recapping all my knowledge because of going on this podcast.

    10. TFTim Ferriss44:33

        Mm-hmm.

    11. BPBen Patrick44:33

        I didn't say it in the video. You don't wanna jinx it. Like, "Hey guys-

    12. TFTim Ferriss44:35

        Yeah, yeah

    13. BPBen Patrick44:35

        ... I'm going on Tim Ferriss," and then you get canceled. [laughs]

    14. TFTim Ferriss44:38

        [laughs] Yeah. Right.

    15. BPBen Patrick44:39

        But I made it for this podcast, and it happens to be doing really well. [laughs]

    16. TFTim Ferriss44:43

        Yeah.

    17. BPBen Patrick44:43

        I've found that the videos I put out that really hit home and help people then long term wind up doing well.

    18. TFTim Ferriss44:49

        Mm-hmm.

    19. BPBen Patrick44:49

        So for me, it's almost like my experience has been the better videos do have more views.

    20. TFTim Ferriss44:53

        Got it.

    21. BPBen Patrick44:53

        'Cause I try to be really careful to never lie in a YouTube title.

    22. TFTim Ferriss44:58

        Yep.

    23. BPBen Patrick44:58

        What I have to look out for, which I'll still have to check it on your video, 'cause who knows on your staff who's gonna title it?

    24. TFTim Ferriss45:04

        Yeah.

    25. BPBen Patrick45:04

        Is people have me on or whatever, and then it's like, I found one and it's like, and they've say- since corrected it, but it said, "Fix knee pain guaranteed-

    26. TFTim Ferriss45:13

        [laughs]

    27. BPBen Patrick45:15

        ... in 60 seconds. The only-"

    28. TFTim Ferriss45:18

        I won't have a video with that title

    29. BPBen Patrick45:19

        ... caps, "the only exercise you'll ever," caps, "need."

    30. TFTim Ferriss45:23

        [laughs]
18. 49:27 – 54:40

    Applying the minimum effective dose (MED) for maximum results in any endeavor.

    1. BPBen Patrick49:27

       positive. I don't do the, like, comparing tear down what's be- like, the program you stick with that works for you and your goals is awesome.

    2. TFTim Ferriss49:34

       Yeah. The program you stick with is the best program.

    3. BPBen Patrick49:37

       Yeah.

    4. TFTim Ferriss49:37

       And I want to reiterate what you're saying because I write books to be references for myself, basically. [laughs] If I can find a book that does the job already, writing's way too hard. The research is way too arduous. It takes way too long.

    5. BPBen Patrick49:52

       [laughs]

    6. TFTim Ferriss49:52

       I don't wanna write a book. It also turns out to generally be a terrible way to make any money, even if your books do very well. So there's, there's just way too much of pushing boulders up the hill for me to write a book unless I feel like I'm gathering things that I need and can't find somewhere else. That was the case with "The 4-Hour Body," and this minimum effective dose, the concept, the MED of finding the minimum effective dose, and you can look at many comparables, right? It's like there's a certain temperature at which you boil water. You don't need to get it 30 degrees hotter, right? [chuckles] If you go outside, there's a point at which you start to adapt in the sun and develop a tan. You don't n- need or want to stay out another hour, right? And you progress, and you start to extend the duration, et cetera. It turns out that you can apply this almost everywhere. You can apply it to language learning with the highest frequency words. You can apply it to... For instance, I was asking on X, back when it was Twitter, people for favorite chapters in "The 4-Hour Body" because I was, I was curious about possibly updating things, although there's not a lot that needs much updating, it turns out, and people gave various examples. There was a, I think it was an NFL player who was benched and got back to playing professionally using the prehab chapter and Occam's Protocol. Occam's Protocol is, like, 20 minutes twice a week resistance training and a handful of other things. There's another [chuckles] guy who chimed in, and I understand you can't believe everything you read on the internet, but I've seen multiple examples of this. He got to, I think, a four hundred and seventy-five pound deadlift using the Barry Ross protocol in the book, and Barry Ross coached Allyson Felix and many other sprinters. It is the most minimal thing you could possibly imagine, and a, a crux piece of it is doing deadlifts to the knee and then effectively dropping the bar so that you're not risking any type of hamstring strain and doing two to three sets of two to three reps. That's it, and you're taking big, fat powerlifter rests in between those sets. The amount of strength that you can build doing that is head-spinning.

    7. BPBen Patrick52:06

       Wow.

    8. TFTim Ferriss52:06

       So I just want to emphasize that, "I don't have enough time," doesn't really hold up to scrutiny if you're willing to scale back, and in fact, you can do a lot more with very little than you might suspect.

    9. BPBen Patrick52:18

       Yeah.

    10. TFTim Ferriss52:18

        To your point, there are also volume-based approaches and, I mean, Poliquin. We talked about Poliquin.

    11. BPBen Patrick52:25

        Yeah.

    12. TFTim Ferriss52:25

        He did a lot of high-volume stuff with his athletes. Not everyone is gonna tolerate that very well, nor is it gonna be compatible with their schedules necessarily. So you find what works for you, and ultimately, the program you stick with is the best program.

    13. BPBen Patrick52:39

        Yeah. I love that. Yeah, the 4-Hour Body had a massive, massive effect on me, and, like, this phase of life, it's like 2-Hour Body for me.

    14. TFTim Ferriss52:48

        Yeah.

    15. BPBen Patrick52:48

        And because it's, like, the strength, the flexibility, the circulation-

    16. TFTim Ferriss52:52

        Mm-hmm

    17. BPBen Patrick52:52

        ... the cardio, all this stuff wrapped in one. Yeah, I mean, I've... I don't do any other therapies. I don't have to take any supplements. Those couple hours go a long way for me, and then I'm... What are my goals? Like, for me, being a dad and then really focusing on my business, treating people well and doing good, it takes a lot of time and energy.

    18. TFTim Ferriss53:13

        Mm-hmm.

    19. BPBen Patrick53:13

        Because if you turn a blind eye to your business, that's rarely gonna happen on its own.

    20. TFTim Ferriss53:17

        Yeah, [chuckles] very rarely. I haven't figured out how to do that yet. [laughs]

    21. BPBen Patrick53:20

        Yeah, so it's like those are my goals. I also don't wanna spend any time having to rehab stuff.

    22. TFTim Ferriss53:26

        Yeah.

    23. BPBen Patrick53:26

        And knock on wood, it's 12 years now, no knee or back problems. It was, like, 15 years ago that I got into this, and I would say my biggest mistake was treating it as short-term rehab-

    24. TFTim Ferriss53:38

        Mm-hmm

    25. BPBen Patrick53:38

        ... and being like, "Oh, great," and then trying to go back to the methods I used to do.

    26. TFTim Ferriss53:43

        Yeah.

    27. BPBen Patrick53:43

        Whereas now, for me, like, [chuckles] you had the question in the video of, like, "So is this, like, a warmup for the work?" And then, like, that's-

    28. TFTim Ferriss53:50

        Yeah

    29. BPBen Patrick53:50

        ... the workout. [laughs] And then you get better at those things, and some of these things we've mentioned, whether it be then finishing with a set of ring rows to a good burnout.

    30. TFTim Ferriss53:59

        Mm-hmm.
19. 54:40 – 56:02

    What I would include in The 4-Hour Body if it were written or revised today.

    1. TFTim Ferriss54:40

       I would say that if I were to... And it's just these things are too long, and the vast majority of what's in "The 4-Hour Body," I feel, is very defensible. It's become more defensible over time-

    2. BPBen Patrick54:49

       That's awesome

    3. TFTim Ferriss54:49

       ... which has been cool to see since it came out in, in 2010. But if I were to add a few things to it, I would add sled work or analogs, like the resisted incline treadmill. I would add a chapter on intermittent fasting.

    4. BPBen Patrick55:08

       Oh, cool.

    5. TFTim Ferriss55:09

       I would add a chapter on... [lips smack] It might not be a chapter, but maybe a sidebar on various hip activities, exercises, things like glute medius work, just things that you can do to stabilize everything else in effect, that I did put some of in Tools of Titans with, say, some of Peter Attia's exercises and so on. I would probably add a chapter or a sidebar on zone two training, which I still to this day find to be the most boring thing in the world. [laughs] But if I have to drag myself or whip myself to do anything, that would be on the high whipping scale. And I think that's about it, and there are probably chapters that I would pull out to simplify, right? To further simplify things. And that's about it.

    6. BPBen Patrick56:01

       That's awesome.

20. 56:02 – 56:47

    A space-saving alternative for people who want to enjoy the benefits of sled work.

    1. TFTim Ferriss56:02

       I mean, these things are so reliable, and I would say to someone, for instance... Again, this is gonna sound like nothing, but if you have access to a sled, and people can look at the resisted treadmill that you have also through ATG. How much does that cost?

    2. BPBen Patrick56:17

       600.

    3. TFTim Ferriss56:18

       600, right. So I mean, it's, on the grand scale of things, not just affordable as an investment, but also space efficient, right? Because the biggest knock against the sled is that you need space, and the sleds are not cheap, particularly the sleds I really like, like the Torx sleds, which I own. I love them, but here in Austin, I don't have the space for one. But let's just pretend you have access to one of these. Let's call it a sled for simplicity, just so people can visualize

21. 56:47 – 1:00:53

    Real examples of high-yield workouts that require a low investment of time.

    1. TFTim Ferriss56:47

       it.

    2. BPBen Patrick56:47

       Yeah.

    3. TFTim Ferriss56:47

       Over this past summer, I did sled work where effectively, as prescribed by Peter Attia, if I'm doing the VO2 max training, right? I would want to do like four minutes on, four minutes off. You could make it [whistles] five or six or whatever. It depends on how hard you're pushing. [laughs] And let's just say it's four minutes on, four minutes off for four rounds or five rounds or six rounds, and I would do that with the sled. And I would push... This is on a gravel driveway with mechanical resistance. [laughs] You don't need to add much weight. So what we're talking about, just to, like, do the math, let's just say it's 15 minutes, which often it would end up being 15 minutes 'cause I would, I would run out of gas. [laughs] Like, but 10 to 20 minutes, let's call it. I was doing that every other day, fasted, after a little bit of caffeine, and my God, can you get [laughs] in good shape just from doing that. I mean, it sounds-

    4. BPBen Patrick57:49

       Wow

    5. TFTim Ferriss57:49

       ... and I'm sure there are some very high-level athletes or people who are doing 600-pound squats or [laughs] 900-pound deadlifts who are gonna laugh hearing me say this, but you might be surprised how much your legs will grow and how much stability you'll develop doing this and how much body fat you can lose just by making that the first thing you do. And in my case, I'm getting sun exposure at the same time-

    6. BPBen Patrick58:14

       Nice

    7. TFTim Ferriss58:14

       ... for 10 to 20 minutes in the morning, and then let that afterburn work for a bit. I would typically do that in the mornings, and I would take some, like a very... I'm talking like 300 milligrams of essential amino acids instead of branched-chain amino acids, but that's a longer story. I would do the workout, and then I would hold off on eating for a few hours and then break my intermittent fast at 2:00 or 3:00 PM. But feeding that way and then doing weight training typically before, like, my second and last meal of the day for dinner, gaining muscle mass, not losing muscle mass, and the total... I mean, we're talking about weekly time. If I'm doing it every, every other day, it's three or four, let's call it, days a week. So that's an hour, and then the weight training's probably, since I'm doing some rehab as well because of some current back issues, we're talking about two to three hours a week.

    8. BPBen Patrick59:06

       Yeah.

    9. TFTim Ferriss59:06

       That's it.

    10. BPBen Patrick59:07

        Yeah.

    11. TFTim Ferriss59:08

        That's it, and it's split up also into very manageable doses, right? It's not like I'm asking you to do a three-hour or two-hour-

    12. BPBen Patrick59:17

        Yeah

    13. TFTim Ferriss59:17

        ... workout at once.

    14. BPBen Patrick59:18

        Yeah.

    15. TFTim Ferriss59:18

        It is really, to this day, there's still things I come across, like the, in my case, I'm still elevated, but the front foot elevated split squat or the ATG split squat.

    16. BPBen Patrick59:27

        Yeah.

    17. TFTim Ferriss59:28

        Or for instance, the exercise that you showed me earlier, which is basically a seated, let's call it, more constrained version of, like, a Romanian deadlift standing. People can find this on your pinned video, I imagine.

    18. BPBen Patrick59:43

        Yep.

    19. TFTim Ferriss59:43

        So I won't belabor the description. Or sled work, where I still find these things where, like, I think to myself, "My God, if I just did these and that was it," the sort of return on invested time is so much better than, like, the long tail of 30 exercises that I could try to do. It still makes me smile and blows my mind to this day how some of these things are just so inherently, given their kind of risk to benefit ratio, so high yield.

    20. BPBen Patrick1:00:15

        Yep.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:00:16

        And it's really wild.

    22. BPBen Patrick1:00:17

        That's exactly how I feel. It's still, to this day, it's like I do my two workouts a week, and I'm just totally stoked. And sometimes I still have that, like, wow feeling-

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:00:26

        Mm-hmm

    24. BPBen Patrick1:00:26

        ... every time 'cause I'm like, "It's unbelievable." And now I've been doing [laughs] this for so long that it's not like, wow, I could just train like th- I have been for a while.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:00:34

        Yeah.

    26. BPBen Patrick1:00:34

        And, and the results are insane.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:00:36

        And you're playing sports, right? Like in terms of-

    28. BPBen Patrick1:00:38

        I try-

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:00:38

        Yeah

    30. BPBen Patrick1:00:38

        ... once a week. To play some basketball.
22. 1:00:53 – 1:01:53

    Ben’s basketball warmup protocols.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:00:53

       Before you play basketball, any type of warmup that you do for that, or is, has your training provided the warmup?

    2. BPBen Patrick1:01:00

       First and foremost, the training provides a warmup. I don't have any special warmup. From what I've learned training-wise, I try to at least have systems.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:01:10

       Mm-hmm.

    4. BPBen Patrick1:01:11

       And to recap incredibly fast my systems, 'cause you'd actually asked me, like, what are my total principles, and it's just three total principles as far as I can see, which is the forward and backward resisted movement, and then the training from the ground up, just reminding myself, even if it's one set, "Okay, I'm gonna hit the lower legs before I go to the upper legs." And then the third one being the, the strength through my mobility.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:01:36

       Mm-hmm.

    6. BPBen Patrick1:01:36

       And then I just flow that to the upper body and I'm done. That's the training principles. If you add all of that up, forward and backward, ground up, because most of us has probably not done as much work for, like, the lower body and lower legs as for the upper body.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:01:50

       Yeah.

    8. BPBen Patrick1:01:50

       So we're kinda restoring some natural balance there.

23. 1:01:53 – 1:03:46

    Regularly skip leg day? Try Arnold Schwarzenegger’s one simple trick.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:01:53

       Yeah, I need to do a lot of work on the lower legs.

    2. BPBen Patrick1:01:56

       Right. We could say that your body's inputs would think that you didn't wanna get as strong in the lower legs as the upper.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:02:02

       Yeah.

    4. BPBen Patrick1:02:02

       So by doing that, you're, what? You're restoring some balance to the body.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:02:06

       Quick [laughs] piece of trivia-

    6. BPBen Patrick1:02:08

       [laughs]

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:02:08

       -for people who might be, might find it funny. Go look at really early photographs of Arnold Schwarzenegger posing, and some of them have him standing in water, where [laughs] water's up to his knees because he was so embarrassed about his lower leg development. [laughs]

    8. BPBen Patrick1:02:25

       Whoa.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:02:25

       Alas, I haven't figured out how to wade through swamps up to my knees to cover my-

    10. BPBen Patrick1:02:29

        Yeah

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:02:29

        ... my lack of development in the lower legs.

    12. BPBen Patrick1:02:31

        Most of us haven't. [laughs] It's almost like we're telling the body, "Hey, I don't wanna be as strong proportionally in the lower legs as everything above it." And then the amount of foot pains and different chronic pains-

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:02:43

        Yeah

    14. BPBen Patrick1:02:44

        ... that I've had people who had for years that are gone now-

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:02:47

        Yeah

    16. BPBen Patrick1:02:47

        ... just from restoring that balance.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:02:49

        Mm-hmm.

    18. BPBen Patrick1:02:49

        It's really cool. And then the third one being training the strength through the mobility, as I said. So those three, but what's the strength through mobility again? We're kind of restoring that natural balance, 'cause when we go into weight training, our body starts to shift towards strength in certain ranges, but not others.

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:03:04

        Mm-hmm.

    20. BPBen Patrick1:03:05

        So all of it together just means my whole philosophy is just to have balanced ability in the body.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:03:09

        Mm-hmm.

    22. BPBen Patrick1:03:09

        Forward, backward, high positions, low positions, lower legs, upper legs. So that's how I train. That makes me healthy that I can just go play basketball. But because of all that, I try to be sensible about it and do a sort of segmented warmup of, like, okay, dribbling in place, then dribbling in motion. Now, what's a little more pressure than that? Might be, like, shooting. And then, so it's just super basic like that.

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:03:33

        Mm-hmm.

    24. BPBen Patrick1:03:34

        Someone could do that for any sport. You take the forces and you just kinda segment them into a obvious warmup. So there's no special basketball warmup.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:03:42

        No magic sauce. [laughs]

24. 1:03:46 – 1:27:15

    Maintaining integrity in the ever-fickle world of content creation.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:03:46

       Well, we've covered quite a bit. Ben, is there anything else that you'd like to cover? Any other topics you'd like to jam on? Anything that comes to mind?

    2. BPBen Patrick1:03:54

       I think more for you, which is for me, as or more important than any of this exercise stuff, is you've managed to become this giant without bashing other people.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:04:09

       Hmm.

    4. BPBen Patrick1:04:09

       Without playing games that you know are lower integrity. So y- you must have some sort of... 'Cause I've had to kind of set up for myself, "Okay, I need to make sure that my posts don't have any lies-

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:04:19

       Mm

    6. BPBen Patrick1:04:19

       ... to try to start arguments, or that there's nothing intentionally trying to start arguments." And so there's these things like this that I've had to piece together. But I think of you, and sometimes I'm blank after that. Apologies if, for being blank, but it's like there's not a lot that I can look to and go, "Here's a guy who's succeeding in ways that I would wanna succeed," right? Helping people, but with your integrity. And to me, that's more important than the rest because I feel like that's the trickle-down that makes life shitty for a lot of people, is the more and more leaders, I mean, who then lose their integrity. It's like, I, like, I think that's more important than all of the rest 'cause that affects everything.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:05:00

       Yeah. Thanks, man.

    8. BPBen Patrick1:05:01

       So what's your-

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:05:02

       What's my process? [laughs]

    10. BPBen Patrick1:05:03

        I mean, yeah, like, what's your thoughts on that? I mean, even if you-

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:05:05

        Yeah

    12. BPBen Patrick1:05:05

        ... just think about it, you'll share some unusual information-

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:05:08

        Sure

    14. BPBen Patrick1:05:08

        ... compared to what normally is gonna be on a podcast.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:05:10

        Yeah, I'm happy to riff on it. I would say that there are a few things that come to mind, and I'll maybe get there by way of example. So there was an episode I recorded a long time ago with a fellow named Balaji, who's very smart, and he's known for a great many things. He's actually been very accurate in predicting a lot of sort of geopolitical events and so on.

    16. BPBen Patrick1:05:37

        Wow.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:05:37

        Also happens to be incredibly technical and familiar with cryptography and crypto and so on. And I did an episode with him, and it just exploded. And there were many reasons for that, but it ended up being, I think at the time, the most popular episode of the year. And-

    18. BPBen Patrick1:05:55

        Wow

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:05:55

        ... there were a number of trend lines at the time. People were at home. This was during COVID. Crypto was on everyone's radar. All of a sudden, people are using various means of finding something to do, including trading or quote unquote "investing," and I use quote unquote 'cause it wasn't always investing. So there were many things that contributed to this episode doing well. And I remember having a chat with my team internally, and they were like, "Here are four or five other guests who are also involved with crypto who we think would be very, very strong." And I paused in that moment, and there's this quote, it may be incorrectly attributed, but there's a quote that I s- have started almost every presentation I've ever given. [laughs]

    20. BPBen Patrick1:06:42

        Mm.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:06:42

        So [laughs] it'd be kind of hilarious if it were not attributed properly. Think it's [laughs] attributed to Mark Twain, but whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect. It's roughly along those lines. And so I looked at what was happening around me, and I saw a lot of podcasts focusing on crypto. I saw a lot of media focusing on crypto. And I looked at, in my mind, telescoping forward, what would be the implications of me having these four or five people on? There would be a definite short or intermediate term reward. Lots of downloads, very happy sponsors. I could probably increase my rates. I mean, there would be real financial rewards. Okay. What are the trade-offs? Because there's al- there are always trade-offs. Always, right? And you make any decision, just, like, literally from the perspective of decision, meaning cutting away, related to indecision, you're choosing one option among many. There are trade-offs. So what are the trade-offs if I commit to doing four or five more episodes on crypto? One is that I start to filter out anyone in my audience who's not interested in crypto, most likely. Some will be willing to indulge me because they have followed the podcast for a long time and want to see how I tackle it. But after four or five episodes, after a month or two-

    22. BPBen Patrick1:08:13

        Yeah

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:08:13

        ... I will basically have culled my audience of anyone who is not particularly interested. That is a very large sacrifice.

    24. BPBen Patrick1:08:23

        Yeah.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:08:23

        Number one, because I want a diverse audience. Number two is that I would be training myself to succumb to audience capture. And there's some great pieces that have been written about audience capture, but the way I would describe it... Actually, I'll give, and I apologize that I can't remember the author's name. It's a really fantastic piece. But he starts with this example of a YouTuber whose channel focused on him gorging himself, eating these kind of absurdly large meals. And he started off, like, pretty thin and ended up, as he was rewarded for these videos, and as it became the corner he was painted into, as he felt he needed to continue to rack up views serving people what they wanted, he destroyed his health completely, became obese, put on this mask, and if you wear a mask long enough, you become the mask. I think that's something that people miss. And I recall, just as a side note, because I want to try to answer your question, but there's a lot to it. I remember I interviewed Andrew Zimmern, who has been on many... He's been on TV for decades now. Amazing guy, very smart. His life story is incredible for people who want to check out the podcast episode. And he said to me at one point, because I was delving into television, he said, "Be very," and I'm paraphrasing, "but be very careful about what you do in that first episode, because if you pretend to be something that you're not and it's successful, you will feel the obligation to continue to do that." And there are a lot of risks related to that.

    26. BPBen Patrick1:10:02

        Yeah.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:10:03

        Furthermore, right, if you're training yourself to respond to audience demands or whims or trends instead of some type of internal compass, and simultaneously, you're training yourself, and these are often related, to basically pursue the option that has the most economic upside, I feel like particularly if you're in the online media game in any capacity.

    28. BPBen Patrick1:10:35

        Yep.

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:10:35

        And by the way, you don't need to have a business to succumb to this. You might just have a personal page, and you're being trained by the platform to be in the Vanity Olympics, and these algorithms [chuckles] are so good, and I know a lot of data scientists and PhDs who work at these companies, you're bringing a knife to a gunfight psychologically. So if you encourage yourself to be captivated by those incentives, you're lost. You're just lost at sea. You're going to be lost, and it's a lot easier to get lost than it is to get unlost. And that has a trickle-down effect, right? So if I make decisions based on, and it's very hard, and I'm not always perfect, if I allow myself to be steered by the most extreme things, perhaps, that guests say, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna optimize for extreme. And then if I'm optimizing for extreme, why am I doing that? It's for views. Why do I care about views? It could be vanity. It could also be for CPMs and advertising. It could be for product sales. Well, what's gonna happen to my headlines? They're gonna become The National Enquirer for people old enough to remember that. They're gonna become the most clickbaity, exaggerated, indefensible set of claims you can imagine. And you don't have to be a data scientist to realize this. Just go look at what you're s- you're served up in your personal feed on YouTube, and [chuckles] chances are there's gonna be a lot of nonsense or a lot of misleading. And what I've learned is that when you develop an awareness of this, not that I'm holding myself up, up to be some paragon of personal excellence and integrity, but I recognize that it's, it's a lot easier to get hooked on a drug than to get off [chuckles] of said drug.

    30. BPBen Patrick1:12:27

        Yeah.
25. 1:27:15 – 1:28:19

    Parting thoughts.

    1. BPBen Patrick1:27:15

       Yeah.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:27:16

       Ben, so nice to spend time together. Really nice to spend time together.

    3. BPBen Patrick1:27:18

       As you can see, I could grill you on this whole-

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:27:20

       [laughs]

    5. BPBen Patrick1:27:21

       ... side of things.

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:27:22

       Yeah.

    7. BPBen Patrick1:27:22

       But I appreciate it.

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:27:23

       Yeah, definitely. Where can people find you online?

    9. BPBen Patrick1:27:25

       Kneesovertoesguy on YouTube and Instagram are the best places where you can just go and learn everything that I know.

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:27:33

        Perfect.

    11. BPBen Patrick1:27:34

        Yeah.

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:27:34

        All right. We'll link to those in the show notes. People will be able to find that. You'll pin the video-

    13. BPBen Patrick1:27:38

        Yep

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:27:39

        ... that gives people an overview-

    15. BPBen Patrick1:27:40

        Yep

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:27:40

        ... of what we recorded earlier. We'll also link to the video we did together.

    17. BPBen Patrick1:27:44

        Yeah.

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:27:44

        So people can check that out 'cause that was a lot of fun.

    19. BPBen Patrick1:27:46

        Yep.

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:27:47

        And thanks for taking the time.

    21. BPBen Patrick1:27:49

        Dude, thank you. [laughs]

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:27:50

        Yeah, really appreciate it. And to everybody listening, as always, we will link to everything in the show notes at tim.blog/podcast. Just search Ben Patrick, or if you wanna type out Kneesovertoesguy [laughs]

    23. BPBen Patrick1:28:04

        [laughs]

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:28:04

        It will probably pop right up. But you can search Ben Patrick, and you'll find everything we've spoken about. And until next time, be just a bit kinder than is necessary to others, but also to you, yourself.

    25. BPBen Patrick1:28:18

        Nice.

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:28:19

        Thanks for tuning in

Episode duration: 1:28:30