Tara Brach Interview (Full Episode) | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)

1. 0:00 – 6:55

   Introducing Tara Brach and Her Work

   1. TFTim Ferriss0:00

      Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question?

   2. TBTara Brach0:08

      Now we're receiving a perfect timing.

   3. TFTim Ferriss0:10

      What if I give you

   4. TBTara Brach0:12

      I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

   5. TFTim Ferriss0:16

      The Tim Ferriss Show. This episode is brought to you by Vimeo Pro, which is the ideal video hosting platform for entrepreneurs. And in fact, a bunch of my startups already use Vimeo Pro, including Wealthfront, who uses it to explain how Wealthfront works. TaskRabbit uses it to tell their company story, and there are many other names you would recognize among their customers, Airbnb, Etsy, et cetera. Why do they use it? Well, Vimeo Pro provides enterprise-level video hosting for a fraction of the usual cost. Features include gorgeous high-quality playback with no ads, up to 20 gigabytes of video storage every week, unlimited plays and views, and a fully customizable video player, which can include your logo, custom outro, et cetera. You also get VIP support. And you get all of this for just $199 per year. That's $17 a month with no complicated bandwidth calculations or hidden fees. And you can try it risk-free for 30 days. So check it out, vimeo.com/business. That's V-I-M-E-O.com/business and use promo code Tim to get 25% off. That's a special discount just for you guys. So check it out, vimeo.com/business, promo code Tim. Hello, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, otherwise known as Feiyu Cheng, but I'm not gonna ask you to call me that. And this is another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where my job is to deconstruct world-class performers or teachers, oftentimes both, in many different areas. And that could range from chess to sports to acting to government to military. And this time, we have an incredible meditative thinker and teacher, uh, specifically in the Buddhist tradition. So Tara Brach, I have been looking forward to speaking with Tara for many, many, many months. Tara is a Ph.D. in clinical psychology and one of the leading teachers of Buddhist thinking and meditation in the Western world. She is the founder of the Insight Meditation Community in Washington, D.C. And her lectures, which are fantastic, are downloaded hundreds of thousands of times every month. I was first introduced to Tara's work by another guest on this podcast, Maria Popova, who's amazing. You should listen to her episode as well. Soon thereafter, looked like the universe was conspiring, a friend who's also a neuroscience Ph.D. recommended her book, Radical Acceptance. She claimed it was life-changing, and all of my red flags went up, and it ended up exceeding all expectations. It really had a profound impact on my life. So it's my hope that this tactical conversation offers you techniques for addressing all sorts of issues, ranging from loneliness to anger, self-hatred, the, quote, trance of unworthiness, end quote, and much more. Uh, Tara has had a meaningful impact on my life, and of course, I wish the same for you. That's why I invited her to be on the podcast. And for those of you who know my fondness for Stoic philosophy, I think Tara's work and certain facets of Buddhism, in fact, are a fantastic complement to all of my talking and reading about Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, and the other favorites. So without further ado, please enjoy a conversation that I really enjoyed and a wide-ranging romp across all sorts of subjects and topics with Tara Brach. Tara, welcome to the show.

   6. TBTara Brach3:45

      I'm delighted to be with you, Tim.

   7. TFTim Ferriss3:47

      And I am having a bit of deja vu all over again, as, uh, one very wise man once said, because I've heard so many of your guided meditations. It's surreal to be talking to you live. I... And do you, do you get that a lot? Do you, do you have people come up to you and have to do a double take with your voice, or people recognize you in restaurants because they've heard your guided meditations?

   8. TBTara Brach4:09

      Yeah, that, and they'll say, "Oh, you look so much littler than I thought."

   9. TFTim Ferriss4:13

      [laughs]

   10. TBTara Brach4:13

       You know? And then I'll start speaking, and they'll go into a kind of hypnotic trance or something. [laughs]

   11. TFTim Ferriss4:20

       [laughs] I've been introduced to you through many different people, and eventually, almost in the same way that meditation kind of knocked on my door until I finally answered, uh, uh, Maria Popova, who runs a site called Brain Pickings, is, uh, just, just one of my favorite people and brought you up on this podcast, in fact. And then a number of my other friends, uh, a friend named Olivia who also brought you up, and it just got to the point where specifically, uh, your guided meditations and radical acceptance had been introduced into my, my life or my slipstream, my consciousness so many different ways, I felt like perhaps [laughs] it was time for me to-

   12. TBTara Brach5:04

       [laughs]

   13. TFTim Ferriss5:04

       ... to sit down and take a look at things. And so first off, I wanted to just thank you for the work that you do because it's had a very positive impact on my life and based on the response of my audience, o- on many people who are likely listening to this, this interview. So first off, I just wanted to thank you for that.

   14. TBTara Brach5:22

       Mm. Mm, thank you. I appreciate hearing it, and it's very mutual, but I won't go there right this moment.

   15. TFTim Ferriss5:28

       [laughs]

   16. TBTara Brach5:28

       So, but thank you for how much you're, what you're doing ripples out. Yeah.

   17. TFTim Ferriss5:34

       It's, uh, just, uh, every, every day s- you know, slogging along in my own way. Although if, if people could see, uh, sometimes I think how the sausage is made, I, I, uh, I, I not so much worry, but part of the reason I, I, uh, usually decline journalists who want to follow me around for three to five days, I'm like, "You might be envisioning something that is very different from my reality." [laughs] I think you see me, like, snowboarding in the Alps and then taking a, taking some type of zip line, like, into a, a bathtub where I'm reciting poetry or whatever the image might be.

   18. TBTara Brach6:07

       [laughs]

   19. TFTim Ferriss6:07

       I have no idea what the image is. I'm like, most of the time it looks like I'm just sitting there. Um-

   20. TBTara Brach6:12

       [laughs]

   21. TBTara Brach6:13

       [laughs]

   22. TFTim Ferriss6:14

       But-

   23. TBTara Brach6:14

       I know, it can be awful ordinary from the inside out.

   24. TFTim Ferriss6:17

       Right. [laughs]

   25. TBTara Brach6:17

       Or extraordinary, both. [laughs]

   26. TFTim Ferriss6:20

       So I was, I was hoping we might t- start, uh, where, uh, where, where things began. Uh, and to rewind the clock a little bit and just give people a, a retrospective of how you got to, to the point where you're teaching Buddhist meditation and mindfulness and so on. Um, and I have a little bit of the background from Radical Acceptance and having read that, but for those people who are unfamiliar with your work, maybe you could give just a brief, uh, a brief overview of, of your background. I think that'd be a helpful place to start.

2. 6:55 – 13:03

   From Hedonist Teen to Ashram Life

   1. TBTara Brach6:55

      Sure. Sure. Well, if I go back, you know, more to the teens, you know, I was completely... I remember when I first went to a class on, uh, comparative religion and, you know, got a whole mess of them introduced, and I decided that Buddhism was at the very bottom of my list. [laughs]

   2. TFTim Ferriss7:16

      [laughs]

   3. TBTara Brach7:16

      Because it's just like, you know, why would I wanna give up desire? I was a total hedonist, and I loved my desires. You know, whether it was, you know, nature, and athletics, or drugs, or sex, or parties. You know, it's like why give up desire? And it wasn't... It was about another five years until I got it, that that wasn't the message. It wasn't give up desire. It was, you know, not be, not have desire be a tyrant over your life. You know, not be possessed. But so I, I was a, you know, just a thrill-seeking, uh, and also Type A kind of a, a teen. Very hardworking and hard playing.

   4. TFTim Ferriss7:58

      And where was this?

   5. TBTara Brach7:59

      Uh, I grew up in Montclair, New Jersey.

   6. TFTim Ferriss8:01

      Mm-hmm.

   7. TBTara Brach8:03

      And, uh, which we all called the hub of the universe 'cause it seemed like the center of everything.

   8. TFTim Ferriss8:07

      [laughs]

   9. TBTara Brach8:08

      And then I went into college thinking I was gonna be a lawyer, and when I graduated, I moved right into an ashram. So something happened in there. [laughs]

   10. TFTim Ferriss8:16

       [laughs] That's quite a-

   11. TBTara Brach8:18

       Something happened

   12. TFTim Ferriss8:18

       ... quite an abrupt transition.

   13. TBTara Brach8:19

       [laughs]

   14. TFTim Ferriss8:20

       So, so I, I'm so curious. I mean, what triggered that? Was it a conversation, a particular movie or book? I mean, how did you go from preparing to be a lawyer to going to an ashram?

   15. TBTara Brach8:31

       Well, I got... There are a number of influences. Part of it's the times. You know, I, I went to college and it was, um, social activism and I was very anti-war, very involved with left-wing politics. And the c- the combo of that with, um, psychedelics, combined with, uh, just the whole, you know, coming, the East, East coming to the West and introducing yoga. I began to do yoga in my junior or senior year in college, and my reality shifted, Tim. You know, it was like, um, I was still... I had a, I've always had an interest in, uh, you know, learning and academics to some degree, but it was like I was passionate about discovering, you know, what is the nature of the universe? What is reality? And I've always fascinated with the psyche, like how do these minds work. So I knew that some... I knew I just kind of had to give myself to that. So when I graduated, um, I went to what's called a summer solstice gathering. It was a big yoga meditation gathering. And the, there was just this experience that, um, there was a mystery that was so much bigger than the world that I normally lived in, that that was the thing to commit myself to. So I really literally went from college right into an ashram community. An ashram's a, for those that aren't, are listening and don't know, it's a, it's a spiritual community where practice yoga and meditation. We'd get up at 3:30 in the morning and start with a cold shower. That was the first, the beginning of the day [laughs] was just-

   16. TFTim Ferriss10:11

       [laughs]

   17. TBTara Brach10:12

       ... getting into a cold shower and, um, then doing, uh, a lot of very vigorous yoga, and chanting, and meditation. And, you know, after a few hours, I'd, I'd enter the day feeling, uh, just absolutely ablaze with, you know, both energy and also very, very peaceful and happy. And then during the day, because, you know, I carried all my Type A stuff into ashram living [laughs]

   18. TFTim Ferriss10:41

       [laughs]

   19. TBTara Brach10:42

       I would, I was just, I was kind of a, you know, a wor- a pretty driven yogi.

   20. TFTim Ferriss10:46

       You're a varsity player. [laughs]

   21. TBTara Brach10:49

       [laughs] You got it. It's amazing. We all, we do that. We... I've, I've seen pretty much everyone I know get into spiritual life or spiritual practice, but bring all their normal egoic neurotic stuff into it. [laughs]

   22. TFTim Ferriss11:05

       Mm-hmm.

   23. TBTara Brach11:05

       So, so I did that.

   24. TFTim Ferriss11:09

       And-

   25. TBTara Brach11:09

       And I, I remember-

   26. TFTim Ferriss11:10

       I'm sorry. Go ahead

   27. TBTara Brach11:10

       ... for... I mean, we, we all have different ways of doing it. For me, I had this idea that if I worked really hard, um, at it, I could get enlightened in six or seven years, and I have no idea where I got that number from.

   28. TFTim Ferriss11:23

       [laughs]

   29. TBTara Brach11:23

       But that was my... You know, I just kind of figured I'd really throw myself in. And so I would sometimes go to different teachers and say, "Well, so what else can I do?" 'Cause, you know, I was pretty... You know, I was going at it. Like, w- as a group, we would get up at 3:30 in the morning, but I'd often get up at 2:30 so I could get [laughs] a little extra in. And, and I don't say this, by the way, with pride. I mean, I was, I was... You know, I've, I've learned since then. But, um, so I'd ask this question, you know, "What else can I do?" And to a T, the response would be, "Just relax."

   30. TFTim Ferriss11:59

       [laughs]
3. 13:03 – 17:27

   The Trance of Unworthiness

   1. TFTim Ferriss13:03

      How did you feel you weren't good enough? Uh, or, or what were the things you hoped to improve?

   2. TBTara Brach13:12

      Well, I could-

   3. TFTim Ferriss13:13

      'Cause I'm a head case about this stuff, so this is not, uh, this is not me talking down, um, in any way. I, I struggle with a lot of these, uh, I, I think, issues. So I'm, I'm asking as much for myself as anyone else. [laughs]

   4. TBTara Brach13:28

      Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, I've c- come to call it the trance of unworthiness in retrospect. Um, and I, I, I, I like talking about it 'cause I f- I feel like most everyone I know, it's, it feels like a pervasive suffering in our culture that we have this sense that we should be better, that we're... You know, there's a, there's a cartoon I love with this dog on a psychiatrist couch, and he's saying, "It's always good dog this and good dog that, but is it ever great dog?" [laughs]

   5. TFTim Ferriss14:01

      [laughs] Sounds like a New Yorker cartoon.

   6. TBTara Brach14:04

      It does, doesn't it? Yeah. So, so, um, I say for myself, I was, um, I think the biggest areas of feeling unworthy or not good enough was a sense of being selfish or self-centered, like in some way my own needs come first. And also feeling, you know, I remember in high school and first years of college being out of control with my eating and feeling overweight and being really, really ashamed of that. So I just felt that w- you know, something was wrong with me there. And that I just in some way was falling short, whether it was as a friend or a daughter or whatever. And I had a lot of insecurity about, you know, I was just very driven to seek approval. And so I could see the different ways that it played out. But, um, it was definitely the, the core sense of, um, not good enough. And that, that really became the seed of, um, writing Radical Acceptance, was both through my own experience of not enough and then as a psychologist and then as a, uh, spiritual teacher, just seeing the torment, like how many people are not able to enjoy their moments 'cause in some way there's a sense of, um, something's wrong. And I'll sh- I'll share with you one story that really hit me, um, and I think it's in Radical Acceptance, of a, a woman who was in a coma, and her daughter was by her, and her daughter told me the story. And she was dying, and at one point she, her kind of eyes bolted open, and she looked just her daughter in the eye and said, "You know, all my life I thought something was wrong with me." And, and then she closed her eyes, and that was it. That was her last word. She, she died after that. And for my friend, for this young-- w- for the woman, it was kind of a parting gift because she realized just how, um, how sad it is to spend so many moments at war with ourselves. And, and, and part of when I teach about the trance of unworthiness, it, it, we can start to see how if we're really not trusting ourselves, if we're filled with self-doubt, it's very hard to feel intimate with other people. Um, there's always a sense that-

   7. TFTim Ferriss16:34

      Totally agree. Totally agree.

   8. TBTara Brach16:34

      Yeah. They'll, they'll, it's like they'll find out. It's like if I'm right now talking to you and I feel like there's this core deficiency, it means I won't be able to be spontaneous or, you know, respond with tenderness. It's like we're, there's always a defendedness. So anyway, that's a long way around saying that that, that became very clear to me, um, in, in, you know, at the end of college and the beginning of living in an ashram that, that I really wanted to, in some way I needed to befriend myself. That became a very clear thing. It wasn't, it wasn't just a psychological thing. It was very much a part of spiritual awakening that I, that I needed to really befriend this life.

   9. TFTim Ferriss17:19

      And when, uh, when you were having this ashram experience, when did things change? When did you leave

4. 17:27 – 25:19

   Leaving the Ashram After a Public Humiliation

   1. TFTim Ferriss17:27

      the ashram?

   2. TBTara Brach17:29

      You know, I was-- The ashram, the, the strengths and the positive aspects were, you know, it made it very easy to have a very regular, strong practice. And you had-- The, the nice thing about having group of people, and I, I really recommend this to all of us, is that it, you know, to periodically be able to practice with other people and exchange what's going on, that sense of community can keep, um, nourishing and, and enlivening, uh, what's going on in terms of awakening. And the ashram had a lot of rigidity to it, Tim. It was, you know, I joined when I was twenty-one, and I came from this very kind of liberal background. I was very independent, and yet I joined something that had quite a hierarchy. It was very patriarchal. It was really very different from what I would have thought for myself. And gradually, those qualities of, of the kind of rigidity just made it so I needed to continue on the spiritual path, but not inside the ashram environment. So I left right, um- I left, I, I stayed for 10 years, and I had an arranged marriage. This is something that's not [laughs] not so typical in the West, you know, I, to have, you know, had all the normal longing to, you know, fall in love, and prince in shining armor, and get married, and instead I, you know, I was assigned my husband. And, um, [laughs] um, I don't know if I should speed over that one or not. [laughs]

   3. TFTim Ferriss19:02

      Uh, you know, we, we, we might, I might come back to that. [laughs]

   4. TBTara Brach19:05

      [laughs]

   5. TFTim Ferriss19:06

      But you can please continue, and then we might come back to that.

   6. TBTara Brach19:08

      [laughs] Okay.

   7. TFTim Ferriss19:10

      Yeah.

   8. TBTara Brach19:11

      Um, so, you know, I, so I went along with a lot of stuff because, you know, again, I was having very, uh, intense altered states of experience that were very lovely. I learned to concentrate my mind and, you know, had a lot of devotional experiences and so on. But, but the structure and the authoritarianism of the, of the community got to me. And, um, so, so I left after 10 years, and, um, and then right after leaving, got pregnant and had my son, Ryan.

   9. TFTim Ferriss19:49

      And if, if, if you wouldn't mind, the, I mean, there's one particular story about the ashram, I mean, this, this e- this being called out, uh-

   10. TBTara Brach19:59

       Oh, yeah, yeah

   11. TFTim Ferriss19:59

       ... in a group setting that I think, I mean, it really struck me, uh, as, um, a turning point perhaps, or, uh, an important event at the very least. If you wouldn't mind describing that, uh, I, I, I think-

   12. TBTara Brach20:14

       Yeah

   13. TFTim Ferriss20:14

       ... it could add some context as well.

   14. TBTara Brach20:16

       Sure, sure. Um, yeah, our, I had been trying to get pregnant, uh, you know, and, and really eager to have a child, and I finally got pregnant, and I went to a gathering, you know, for, we, we would gather for about a month, um, in the mountains. And I remember it was very, very hot, and it was very rigorous activity at our, our gatherings, and I miscarried. And so I wrote a note to the, um, spiritual leader of the community, um, and, and basically said, "You know, we might wanna warn some people that if you're pregnant [laughs] and you're in this kind of heat and this, you know, it might not be a good idea." And I think that that must have made him feel like I was saying, "Well, your teachings, something about your teachings caused me to miscarry," which of course wasn't what I was saying. But, but y- I was in a group of several hundred people when he had me stand up, and he said, you know, "You're trying to blame your miscarriage on such and such, and you miscarried because of your ego." And he was very, it was very crude and very, it was abusive. It was a- an abusive behavior to, here I was two days after a miscarriage, to, um, you know, have me in that vulnerable a place, uh, berated in that way. And so that... A- I'm glad you brought it up because that, you know, I'd already had a lot of misgivings about ashram l- living, but h- his behavior made it utterly clear to me that, you know, I couldn't be part of something where the leader would treat people in an abusive way. And interestingly, I ha- I have had no, um, abuse or trauma on that, of any real sort in my history. I think if I had already been an abused person, and I'd already had trauma in my nervous system, that it would've been much more difficult for me to process that.

   15. TFTim Ferriss22:20

       Hmm.

   16. TBTara Brach22:21

       But as it happened, um, after that experience, for the hours after it, I remember going into a little, um, kind of a chapel and, and crying deeply. You know, the humiliation of it, the pain of it, the hurt of it, the kind of the betrayal. Like, how could somebody I had kind of trusted do that? And then I got to a place where either, I, it became very clear to me that either I was gonna in some way believe that he knew something and, and use it against myself, or I was going to absolutely get behind myself in the sense of really dedicate to embracing myself, not to buy into some badness. Because it could have easily played into the trance of unworthiness.

   17. TFTim Ferriss23:14

       Oh, definitely.

   18. TBTara Brach23:14

       It could have been-

   19. TFTim Ferriss23:15

       Yeah

   20. TBTara Brach23:15

       ... it could have been the killer. Could have been the nail to the coffin. And, but what it made clear to me is that I, I really want, you know, that it was intrinsic to the spiritual path to trust and embrace the life that's here. And that doesn't mean, Tim, that I felt like I, my ego, that I was, you know, ego free and that I didn't make mistakes and, you know. I mean, I, I'm like, you know, very, very aware of all my imperfections. Um, it more meant that on some fundamental level I was gonna trust my goodness. And so it was a turning point because it was after that betrayal that I chose to m- really, I really committed myself to accepting myself as I was. And, um, since then I ran into this, uh, quote from Carl Rogers, who says, you know, "It wasn't until I accepted myself just as I was that I was free to change."

   21. TFTim Ferriss24:15

       Yeah, this is... So I'm glad you brought that up. I was actually gonna bring up that exact quote. [laughs]

   22. TBTara Brach24:21

       Oh, really? [laughs]

   23. TFTim Ferriss24:22

       Later in our conversation. Uh, and, and we'll get to that just because I've found it very challenging, and I've talked to many friends about this, the balancing of acceptance versus- proactivity or the acceptance-

   24. TBTara Brach24:39

       Mm.

   25. TFTim Ferriss24:39

       -versus being proactive.

   26. TBTara Brach24:40

       Mm. Mm-hmm.

   27. TFTim Ferriss24:41

       And, and we'll come back to that because I know [laughs] this is something you've spoken about before. But, uh, the ashram then at that point is, is a closed chapter of sorts. So you embrace, decide to do what many people perhaps would not have done because of their background or circumstances, which is really sad, and you see this a lot in closed communities. But you took the path of sort of accepting, trying to accept yourself as opposed to accept this, uh, negative version of yourself that had been reinforced by this, this leader. At that point, where did you go with your, your studying and, and/or your teaching?

5. 25:19 – 32:06

   Turning to Buddhist Mindfulness and an Arranged Marriage

   1. TBTara Brach25:19

      I left the ashram. I had been doing a lot of teaching while I was in the ashram, yoga and meditation. And I left, um, and got very drawn... My, my meditation kind of started shifting, and I got very drawn to Buddhist meditation, which interestingly is, if you think of a lot of the yogic meditations, is, is a very, um, very much of a training in concentration. And I, I suspect we'll get more into the different kinds of meditation as we speak. But it, it can really, uh, allow you to, uh, quiet the mind and settle the mind and, and have access to experiences of a lot of peace. And, um, it's, it can be very, very, uh, very profoundly pleasurable. And, and I love that, but what it didn't teach me was mindfulness, which was really how to open up into the present moment with a, with a very kind of profound quality of just simple acceptance and presence, to really notice what's going on right here. So I got drawn to Buddhism because that, that capacity for mindful presence, uh, became more and more what drew me. So after I left the ashram, I started reading and then going to retreats, um, that were, that were Buddhist meditation retreats. And I also had a child. So it was, I was juggling, uh, juggling, you know, a few different worlds there, but they came together okay.

   2. TFTim Ferriss26:56

      And since I promised to come back to it, and, uh, arranged marriage, I'd like to talk about this. Um, because, and I, I wanna hear your thoughts on a couple of things. But, uh, so I've had conversations half-jokingly, not totally jokingly, with friends who are, say, Indian and, uh, who have friends who've had arranged marriages. And some of these, these friends live in, say, New York City, and they have this paradox of choice conundrum where whoever they're dating, however smart or attractive or kind and so on they might be, they are passing so many people on the street that they worry might be just a little more attractive, a little more this, a little more that, that they hop from one person to the next, to the next, to the next in relationships. And they, they w- if I have a few drinks with them, sometimes they'll joke, "You know, it'd be a lot easier if I just had an arranged marriage." [laughs]

   3. TBTara Brach27:52

      Mm-hmm. [laughs]

   4. TFTim Ferriss27:53

      Because it would take the decision-making out of it on some level. Or, you know, perhaps my parents could say, not, "This is the one person," but, "Here are the five people you have to choose from. They're all really great people. Take your pick." And I, I'd just love to hear how your arranged marriage was arranged. Like, what, what were the criteria? How were, how were you two paired? And just your general thoughts on, uh, on that entire experience.

   5. TBTara Brach28:19

      Yeah. So maybe I'll, just to make a broader comment that, you know, for some people from some traditions, it may well be that, you know, given a, a handful, uh, of people that there may be somebody in that handful that it really does work better for them. And so it's, this is not like a, a judgment that culturally this is a bad, a bad ritual, [laughs] you know? But, um, and in this particular case, um, it happened, I'd say, a good number of times, maybe three quarters of the marriages of the... You know, we were all in our 20s when we first joined the ashram. Were arranged by the head of the whole organization. And, um, so, and, and so mine was. And it was not done by any criteria that any of us could ever think of. It was very much that, um, he, there was a, a man who lived in Canada and needed his green card. That's what it was. And they wanted... And he was part of our larger community, and they wanted him to be able to, uh, move into the country and get a green card, and so they were looking for somebody to match him with. And they knew I was single, and they, they made the arrangement for me not only to marry him, but I had to leave where I was living, which was Boston, and come down to Washington. So it was, it seemed in my mind to be absolutely this crazy, groundless pairing. I, I couldn't imagine. I mean, it was just so far from what I ever imagined for myself. And when I met him, he was a perfectly nice person, but he, very, very far from anybody I would have naturally in my own choosing have, um, picked as a mate. So it was, um, it was really, really rough. I was very upset by it. I pleaded not to have to do it. And ultimately, it was my sense that, well, to be dedicated to this path means to be, to go along with this. That was somehow or other how my mind construed it, that I needed to surrender. I needed to surrender my wants and, and just do it. And I'm still, and I can say right now in my current state of mind- Kind of astonished that I would have viewed it that way because as I say, I came up from a very, I came out of pretty independent thinking people. But that's what happened, and I married him, and it turned out that he was, as I said, a very, uh, you know, a wonderful, wonderful human, and he consider- continues to be a, a dear friend and brother. I mean, he really is. He's ver- we're very much... We, we had a child together. We, even though we divorced, we co-parented, and we're good friends. And I think, Tim, that, you know, part of it is because we didn't fall in love in a romantic way, when we decided to divorce, there wasn't the kind of, um, painful tearing apart that brings up so much, you know, anger and senses of betrayal and so on. We were able to, we were able to move on together.

   6. TFTim Ferriss31:33

      This is very interesting. Yeah, you didn't have the, I'm not sure if enmeshing is the right word, but you didn't have that, a lot of the components that create the complexity and sort of, um, I suppose one could say irrational anger and exaggerated, uh, anger directed at the other person just didn't exist. Um-

   7. TBTara Brach31:53

      Exactly. I mean, the more attachment there is, the more the falling, that when we come apart, the more, you know, pain and, and feeling of, you know, vengefulness and everything flies up. So no, it didn't have that.

6. 32:06 – 40:13

   Mindful Hedonism and Working with Attachment

   1. TFTim Ferriss32:06

      So I'd, I'd love to talk about meditation and mindfulness, and we'll get to that, uh, looking at the different types of meditation. But I'd love to ask you a c- a couple of questions that are just on my mind right now. So you mentioned enjoying, you know, the, your, your, the d- the desires, the sex, the drugs, the this, the that, which all sounds pretty fun, quite frankly. Uh, is it possible to be a mindful hedonist? And if so, is that a bad thing?

   2. TBTara Brach32:38

      A mindful hedonist. That, that should be my next book. [laughs]

   3. TFTim Ferriss32:43

      [laughs]

   4. TBTara Brach32:43

      I like it. Um, I think it's possible to take tremendous pleasure in this world. In fact, you know, one of, one teacher says, "Why fixate your desire on one thing? Why not just desire it all?" And, and the more we're in that kind of receptivity where there's just an amazing appreciation for the simplest things, for everything, um, actually, there's a lot of freedom in that. 'Cause there's not a lot of clenching and holding on and having to control. Where the idea of mindful hedonism could fall on its face is if we become attached to the particular currents of hedonism being a certain way. So, you know, if we become attached to always having a certain food, and then it, and then we end up getting addicted. Or we get attached to a certain chemical substance, and it then becomes harmful for our body. Or we take hedonistic pleasure in being with one person sexually, but then it turns out that, uh, it doesn't work out with that person. So if you see what I mean, when there's attachment, and it's a tight holding, it actually causes suffering.

   5. TFTim Ferriss33:56

      Totally. Uh, totally agreed. And I, I think that... I have a friend who uses hedonistic as this, he says it with this sort of bitter, cutting edge to his voice. He's a very close friend. I won't name him. Uh, but I, I think that it's, it's, uh, it's kinda got a bad rap. I mean, not to say that, uh, that everyone should aspire to be a hedonist, but I think that there's a also, from, from my own experience at least, in just looking at modern technologically enabled culture, there's a, there appears to be a disconnect, uh, where a lot of human beings do not know how to enjoy, um, sensual plea- pleasures. And by that, I don't mean purely sex. Like, they don't, they don't, they don't, uh, feel at home in their own bodies. They don't walk around barefoot. They don't have these types of sensory experiences that it can be so rich. Uh, and, uh, that's, uh, I feel like the baby just kinda gets thrown out with the bathwater a lot. And I'd be curious to hear how you might recommend someone experience pleasures without developing a harmful attachment. So for instance, before we started recording, I was chatting with you a little bit about fasting. And, uh, I've been experimenting with fasting partially just to prove to myself that I am self-sufficient and can survive fasting. I mean, it's a very, it's been a very empowering experience for me. And, uh, similarly, I did an experiment with my audience a few months ago, um, called, uh, NobNom, which I got a lot of grief for, but it, it meant, uh, no booze, no masturbation for 30 days. And so we had about 10,000 people do this experiment, and it was very empowering for everyone involved, even those who didn't make it the full 30 days. But aside from these intermittent, uh, periods of abstinence, these experiments, are there other ways or practices that help someone not develop attachment to, uh, I suppose anything, but certain pleasures certainly would fall in that category?

   6. TBTara Brach36:09

      Yeah. It's, it's a wonderful question because really, if we look at our lives, um, where there's suffering, if we're not happy, and if we're not at home, it's really because of the sense of I want things different. I want more. There's not enough here. And that's attachment. It's like I have to have more. It's a have to have feeling. And so, um, my experience is that the more we actually are in the moment and in the senses, like right here, right now- The more we decondition grasping. So the very training of... 'Cause, 'cause grasping comes like you have something, and then you have the idea that you need to have more to be happy. But if you actually let go of the idea and just experience, directly contact the sense of the pleasure in the moment, and just notice that, and then if there's this arising of a sense of wanting more, you just notice that, and then you come back right to your body again. It's staying in the moment that actually interrupts the chain reaction that leads to grasping onto things. But that takes practice, Tim. I mean, it's like for most people, as soon as we have the first few spoons of ice cream, um, it's kind of like we forget, and we just spoon it in, and we don't taste until at the end there's something lingering, and then we have to have more, and there's alread- we're already leaning into the future. So to stay with each bite, there's actually a fulfillment in it, and we don't go down that track of having to have.

   7. TFTim Ferriss38:00

      Right. And it's, it's, uh, I'm glad you mentioned the, the eating. Um, my girlfriend has done a f- a, who's, as I mentioned before we got started, a massive fan of yours, uh, has done quite a bit with women with eating disorders, and I know you've spent a lot of time thinking about this. But she's had a lot of success with her past clients simply saying, "You're allowed to eat whatever you want to eat, but you have to really enjoy it and focus on the experience of eating that food." And just by not forcing, but facilitating that mindfulness, a lot of those people didn't go on autopilot and consume the 12 scoops instead of one, for instance. And-

   8. TBTara Brach38:42

      Exactly.

   9. TFTim Ferriss38:43

      Uh-

   10. TBTara Brach38:44

       Yeah

   11. TFTim Ferriss38:44

       ... the, the, um, she was trying to stop me from drinking wine last night, and she said, "You're allowed to have another glass, but I want you to think [laughs] about it first." [laughs] And I was like-

   12. TBTara Brach38:52

       Aw. [laughs]

   13. TFTim Ferriss38:53

       ... "Oh, you got me." Uh, anyway, but the, uh, [laughs] the, it was a very nice Sancerre, in, in, in my defense. But the-

   14. TBTara Brach39:01

       [laughs]

   15. TFTim Ferriss39:02

       ... the, uh, I'm, I'm getting, I'm going off the rails here. Let me, let me steer my, my, uh, my thinking back on track. Um, one of the challenges that I have is, for instance, anger. Uh, this is, I've, I've been rewarded in life for a lot of, I feel, um, aggression, sort of bull in a china shop type of, uh, aggression sounds very, uh, has a negative connotation, but being, being very, very proactive with trying to ac- uh, accomplish the things that I set out before me, whatever those things might be. And, uh, a, a maybe side effect of that is a lot of anger directed at myself, directed at other people. And I'd love for you to talk about, this was, this was something that I just really, when I talk about radical acceptance, this is one of the examples I bring up or one of the stories. Could you talk about Mara and inviting Mara to tea? [laughs]

   16. TBTara Brach40:00

       [laughs] I'd love to. But can I ask you a question about the anger?

   17. TFTim Ferriss40:03

       Sure.

   18. TBTara Brach40:04

       Yeah. Do you feel like it causes you suffering? And, and if so, how do you notice it as suffering? 'Cause I get that you've gotten rewards for aggression.

7. 40:13 – 54:27

   Anger, Winning, and Fear of Losing One's Edge

   1. TFTim Ferriss40:13

      Yeah. Uh, and, and I'm not con- uh, the answer is yes, absolutely suffering, which is, uh, part of the reason that I finally started attempting to meditate regularly, and I've done a fairly-

   2. TBTara Brach40:27

      Mm

   3. TFTim Ferriss40:27

      ... good job, uh, was because I recognized the suffering was not, not only undesirable on so many levels, but unsustainable. I mean, it was, it was, um, and I'm not the person who came up with this, this was analogy, but, uh, the, you know, the acid hurts the vessel that is storing it-

   4. TBTara Brach40:47

      Mm-hmm

   5. TFTim Ferriss40:47

      ... more than anything that ha- uh, it happens to be poured upon. And I was just carrying around-

   6. TBTara Brach40:52

      Mm-hmm

   7. TFTim Ferriss40:52

      ... this acid all the time, and I recognized it wasn't, it wasn't a sustainable, um, it w- it wasn't sustainable in any way. So yes, definitely suffering. Uh, I'm never good enough for myself, ever, uh, for instance.

   8. TBTara Brach41:06

      Mm. Mm. Mm.

   9. TFTim Ferriss41:06

      I mean, I, and, and this is, this is where I have so much trouble because, uh, I won't mention names here, but for, I'll, I'll give you just the type of anecdote that on one hand people could say is ridiculous, on the other hand, I really enjoy, and maybe this is, you can read into my pathology here.

   10. TBTara Brach41:22

       [laughs]

   11. TFTim Ferriss41:23

       But, uh, so, so there, there was a very famous tech entrepreneur who was a billionaire several times over, and he was playing chess with a very well-known competitor at one point, and this billionaire lost, and he stood up and swiped all the pieces off the board and kind of stormed off. And the other guy said, "Wow, you're really, you're really bad at losing." And he said, "Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a fucking loser." [laughs] And-

   12. TBTara Brach41:50

       Mm. Mm. Mm

   13. TFTim Ferriss41:50

       ... now, that's a very, uh, that's a very, uh, exaggerated example perhaps, but I mean, so if you look at some of my favorite movies, right, like Miracle, which is a Disney movie, but it's amazing. It's about the, uh, the US hockey team when they, they were, I think, expected to be number 16th or 17th, and made it all the way to the gold medal match against the Soviets, who at the time were thought to be invincible. And just the, the, the, uh, extreme nature of the training and the pushing and how hard they had to push to even make that remotely possible is attractive to me, right? And so what, as a competitor, I know I'm going on a little long-winded bit here, but I was always taught, and in fact, maybe I just taught myself, like second place is first loser, right? Like I would rather be last place than second place because second place means you tried really, really, really, really hard, but just not hard enough. You, you tried like 2% less than the person who got the gold medal, medal, and no one remembers the silver medalist ever. So it's that-

   14. TBTara Brach42:54

       So let me, let me ask you a question about that then. If you had to step back and look at your life, what is the most important place that you would wanna win a gold medal? I mean, if you really think at the end of your life looking back, if you could be the very best in something, right? Just like what, what do you most wanna be best at?

   15. TFTim Ferriss43:17

       I would say, um, creating learners who are better than I am.

   16. TBTara Brach43:26

       Mm. Mm-hmm.

   17. TFTim Ferriss43:26

       And, uh, and if I do that, I feel like I can create a benevolent army of per- tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of world-class teachers, and that just self-replicates. So I think that would be the answer. One s- I know we're bouncing around here, but it's okay. The... So one of the... When I started meditating regularly for the first time, it was only because I had two people I could identify with recommend it to me when I was really in a very, two dark places. So one was Chase Jarvis, who's a world-class photographer. He's been on this podcast. Another was Rick Rubin, legendary music producer, who also has been on this podcast. And in this particular case, and we'll get into the different types of meditation, they said, "Why don't you try TM?" Okay? So transcendental meditation. And because these two guys did not strike me as very woo-woo or-

   18. TBTara Brach44:27

       Mm-hmm

   19. TFTim Ferriss44:28

       ... uh, overly detached from the stresses that I faced. Does that make sense? Like they were-

   20. TBTara Brach44:33

       Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

   21. TFTim Ferriss44:33

       ... negotiating contracts. They were dealing with difficult people. They were really on the front lines of their own respective wars, if you wanna look at it that way. And so I was like, okay, if they're recommending this thing that I've kind of discarded as, um, not a fit for me, right? I, I've, I've always shied away from using the word spiritual, for instance.

   22. TBTara Brach44:52

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   23. TFTim Ferriss44:53

       But because it came from these two people, I decided to give it a shot. The, and then I started seeing the benefits of meditation. I mean, e- even if I just looked at it through the lens of my type A personality, full of ambition and piss and vinegar and self-flagellation, I was like, if I meditate in the morning, I get more done with less stress, and, uh, there's less flailing. So for that reason-

   24. TBTara Brach45:19

       Mm-hmm

   25. TFTim Ferriss45:20

       ... for that reason alone-

   26. TBTara Brach45:21

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

   27. TFTim Ferriss45:21

       ... I will meditate, right?

   28. TBTara Brach45:23

       Mm-hmm.

   29. TFTim Ferriss45:23

       Uh, and then I remember getting to a point after meditating for the first time ever in my life consistently for about, I don't know, let's, let's call it two weeks. I was s- I was on a road trip with a friend of mine who had had a very similar experience, and sh- and, uh, she asked me, "Do you ever worry that you're getting too chill?" [laughs]

   30. TBTara Brach45:45

       Mm-hmm.
8. 54:27 – 1:02:48

   Inviting Mara to Tea and the Sacred Pause

   1. TBTara Brach54:27

      Okay. So in the Buddhist mythology, and this is to me one of the most amazingly contemporary, relevant, uh, kind of principles in the universe, the Buddha's awakening, uh, to a larger reality, uh, came through, uh, he sat this night, uh, under what's called the Bodhi Tree. The Bodhi is the tree of awakening. And through the night, the God Mara, who represents, uh, anger, greed, pride, aversion, um, passion, jealousy, all the, all these forces that can take over and create misery, uh, attacked him. And, you know, there were, so there were arrows and flames of light and spears and so on coming at him. And, you know, he sat through the night and practiced- This quality of presence so that all this, the attacks to each of the weapons turned into a, a flower petal. So by the morning, morning star, when it rose, he, there was a heap of petals at his, at his, uh, in front of him. But interestingly, Mara did not just vanish in the Buddhist lifetime. Mara would keep appearing. And so he'd c- the Buddha would be teaching in a field somewhere, a lot of people gathered, and Mara would start lurking in the outskirts. And the Buddha's loyal attendant would be freaked out, and he'd say, "Oh my God, Mara's here. What are we gonna do? The shadow has come." But the Buddha would kind of say, "Chill. It's okay." And then what he'd do is go right to Mara and say, "I see you, Mara. Come, let's have tea." And what those two communications really, uh, say, "I see you, Mara," is mindfulness. You know? I s- I see you. I, I get in this moment what's happening. Okay, there's fear, there's anger. It's a, this, it's this, this capacity we each have to pause and just recognize this is what's here right now. It's an honest recognition. So he said, "I see you, Mara," and that's considered the first wing of presence, seeing what's here. And then the second, "Come, let's have tea," is instead of fighting what's here in the moment, there's making space for it. There's getting to know it. There's, it's a quality of heart. It's a quality of heart space that lets the life be just as it is in the moment. And these two wings of presence that you see in this myth really are the very foundation of a meditation practice, that in any moment that we can pause and say, you know, you can ask that question, "So what is happening inside me right now?" And, and I invite all of you who are listening just right now just to, you might just check in. What is happening inside me right now? You might check the feelings in your body, sensations, if there's a mood. This is the first wing of mindfulness that we, we say, "Okay, so here's what it's like right now." Very with our senses, very embodied. And then the second wing, which is let's have tea, is really like a saying, "Look, I'm just gonna allow how this experience is right now to be just as it is with, with, and I'm gonna bring some interest and some care to it. Let's have tea." So it's a way of, uh, being with ourselves that's intimate, that's full. And naturally it extends, 'cause if you can say to yourself, "Okay, here's what's happening. There's some anxiety, and okay, let me be with it," then when you run into another person and they are aggravating in you in some way, and judgment comes up, or they're intimidating you, you can say, "Oh, okay, so this is Mara again. Um, I see you, Mara." And you're saying this to yourself. I, I, I get that this is intimidating, and let's have tea. So there's a, you create a space of presence for what's there. And in response to what you said earlier is couldn't this be passive or, uh, kind of a, a chill stance. Um, it's really out of that presence that we can then act in a way that is most intelligent and most empowered. So this radical presence and radical acceptance that I'm describing, these two wings of what's going on and let's have tea, that's not our permanent stance. That's the grounds for action. It's like we've come home into the moment. We've come into some stability and balance, and then when we respond to the world, we actually are responding from our full potential.

   2. TFTim Ferriss59:14

      Right.

   3. TBTara Brach59:14

      We're not in a reactive mode.

   4. TFTim Ferriss59:16

      We have our internal house in order. I mean, it's, we have...

   5. TBTara Brach59:21

      That's exactly right.

   6. TFTim Ferriss59:22

      Yeah.

   7. TBTara Brach59:22

      We've, we've, we've co- we've recon- you know, we're online again in a way. Because what happens is when we're reacting to the world, we kind of cut off from some of the parts of our frontal cortex that actually can make us most, um, effective. And I'll give you, uh, an example, a story that, that's always touched me of, um, uh, this is a, a surgeon, a commanding surgeon in the Army who, um, took a s- took an anger management course. So this does, this, this is to do with anger, Tim. And he, he took this course, and it was very much based on mindfulness, based on what is happening in this moment and can I open to this? Okay? So he took the course c- because he was ordered to, actually. And-

   8. TFTim Ferriss1:00:06

      [laughs] Always a, always a good start.

   9. TBTara Brach1:00:09

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, um, and he, and then, so the, as the story goes, he went at the end of the day to a supermarket to, um, you know, 'cause he needed to fill up on supplies, and he gets into line. And in front of him, there's a woman with just a few items in her cart. And not only that, um, she's got a baby, and it isn't, this is not the express line. And so he starts fuming, 'cause why doesn't she get in the express line? She's in front of me and taking time. She hands the baby to the clerk, and they are oohing and aahing over this little girl. And so he is, so he, okay, so he is triggered, and he remembers mindfulness. Okay. The first step with mindfulness is you pause, and that's a sacred pause. You sense, okay, something's going on. Let's pause. And then the second step is, okay, so what's going on inside me right now? You know? What are we seeing? And he, you know, so he noticed it was anger, and then he could feel underneath the anger that anxiety. And many of us know the anxiety of when we're busy and on our way, and it feels like our whole world's gonna fall apart 'cause we're gonna be late or not prepared or... So he could sense it was anger, and, uh- ... fear underneath the anger. And then as he had tea with it, as he just stayed with it, he found some more space and some more presence. So when he looked up and he saw the little girl, he thought, "Oh, she's cute." And when it was his turn, the woman had left with, with the girl. He said to the clerk, "You know, that, that little girl was adorable." And the clerk beamed at him and she said, "Oh, thank you. Actually, that's my little girl. My husband was killed in Afghanistan last year, and my mom brings her by every day twice a day so we have a little time together."

   10. TFTim Ferriss1:01:53

       Wow. Yeah. It's-

   11. TBTara Brach1:01:57

       So I, I share that story because if we don't pause and deepen attention, we live out patterns we've been living our whole life to keep us separated from ourselves or our highest self and each other. And, you know, we don't know what's going on for others. Uh, you know, it's not like everybody has just endured that kind of a loss, but, you know, everybody's struggling hard. And we're so quick to, to take personally and to read our lives into things. If to be able to pause and both bring mindfulness and attention inwardly and then outwardly, this is, this is what's gonna change the world. This is what's gonna allow us to step out of reactivity that fuels w- wars and actually be more collaborative. This is evolution.

9. 1:02:48 – 1:05:46

   Stoic Reminders and Tara's Morning Routine

   1. TFTim Ferriss1:02:48

      I really appreciate that story also because it, um, brings to mind for those people out there who are s- struggling with some of the same things as this, uh, the, the gent in the story or, you know, the ki- the kind of things that I, I'm very, uh... Sometimes the anger very often takes the form of impatience, or maybe it's the other way around, I'm not sure. But, uh, very impatient and, uh, generally always have been. I mean, ever since I was, like, a little kid, if, if I sat with an empty water glass in a restaurant, and my mom thinks this is hilarious but also kind of annoying, I would just, like, get up and walk into the kitchen and grab a pitcher of water.

   2. TBTara Brach1:03:23

      [laughs]

   3. TFTim Ferriss1:03:24

      Like, not known for my, uh, my patience. And, uh, there are benefits to that sometimes. Uh, but the, what I started doing a few years ago, and in fact what I think helped prime me for meditation, was reading quite a bit of stoic philosophy, uh, which, which I think has a lot in common with certain-

   4. TBTara Brach1:03:44

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

   5. TFTim Ferriss1:03:45

      ... uh, types of Buddhism or teachers, uh, teachings of Buddhism anyway. But a couple of things really helped me. The first was, uh, trying in the morning to basically do what Marcus Aurelius did. So Marcus Aurelius, who wrote Meditations, but it was really a, basically a w- a journal that was never intended for publication, was at one point the most powerful man in the world. And he would wake up, and this sounds depressing to some people, but I don't find it depressing. And he would say, you know, "Today, I'm going to," and I'm paraphrasing, but, "run into people who are ungrateful, rude, entitled, et cetera. And basically I've, I sh- I need to be prepared for that and not overreact to it." And along the same lines, you know, in the mornings what I've tried to remind myself of when I journal, uh, usually after meditating is, you know, p- everyone is fighting a battle you know nothing about-

   6. TBTara Brach1:04:35

      Mm, mm, mm

   7. TFTim Ferriss1:04:35

      ... number one. And then number two, and I think this is, this was extremely important for me, and I, I can't remember who told me this initially, but it was: Don't ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence. And I actually added to that, and I was like, don't ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence or busyness, right?

   8. TBTara Brach1:04:53

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   9. TFTim Ferriss1:04:53

      I mean, I'm, I'm amazed sometimes, and I know I've done this in the past. But when-

   10. TBTara Brach1:04:57

       Mm-hmm

   11. TFTim Ferriss1:04:57

       ... somebody will come up to me, I've never met them before in my life, and they'll say, "You didn't respond to my email." [laughs] And I'm like, "I don't-

   12. TBTara Brach1:05:03

       Mm, mm, mm

   13. TFTim Ferriss1:05:03

       ... I don't know your name. I don't know who you are. I have no idea what you're talking about." But their overreaction to that, you know, assuming that I had sort of slighted them by reading the email and deciding it was unimportant and then ignoring it, which was not the case at all, has guarant- virtually guaranteed that I will not respond to their email [laughs]

   14. TBTara Brach1:05:20

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

   15. TFTim Ferriss1:05:20

       ... 'cause they got so pissed off and flew off the handle, and I have no idea what their name is in the first place. Uh, but what, what are... Le- let's look at a couple of different types of meditation. I'd love for you to sort of describe... Actually, let me, let me take a step back. Let's talk about your personal experience. So what does your, what does the first 60 to 90 minutes of your day look like, your morning routine?

10. 1:05:46 – 1:15:06

    Body-Based Meditation Technique and Posture

    1. TBTara Brach1:05:46

       Well, I am woken up, if I don't wake up myself, I get up real early. I mean, I, I naturally wake up around, well, not real early, but 5:00 or so, 5:30. But if I don't pop out of bed, then I've got a, a dog that will climb on my chest and lick my face and nudge me out of bed.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:06:02

       [laughs]

    3. TBTara Brach1:06:03

       Um, and so she does that because we go right away straight from, uh, we go right down to the river. I live right by the Potomac River. So I usually hike for about three to four miles in the morning. It's the first thing with my dog, and it's almost any weather. Um, I'll do that.

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:06:22

       And that's no breakfast, no coffee initially.

    5. TBTara Brach1:06:24

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:06:25

       Just right out.

    7. TBTara Brach1:06:25

       I just go out. I just leave. 'Cause I find for myself, um, I like, I'm, I've always been very physical and, um, so, and when I was younger, more athletic, and that's a whole other story 'cause I did lose it for a while. But, um, I find that for me, just moving and moving vigorously and being in nature is, you know, if I had to say what my religion is, it's, you know, being in nature, [laughs] you know?

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:06:49

       Yeah.

    9. TBTara Brach1:06:50

       I just love it. So, you know, so we go and, uh, we do this kind of up-down hike and, and by the ri- by the river and in the hills. And then about an hour into the hike, I have a place by, um, a stream that I'll stop and, and then I'll do a meditation there. So I do a standing meditation there, and, uh, it could last anywhere from 20 to 45 minutes. And then we do the rest of the hike, and I come home.

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:07:17

        What does that standing meditation, uh- Com- uh, what, what is that comprised of? Uh-

    11. TBTara Brach1:07:25

        Right

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:07:26

        ... or what does it consist of?

    13. TBTara Brach1:07:27

        Mm-hmm.

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:07:27

        Like, so, so when you, if you could just walk us through-

    15. TBTara Brach1:07:31

        Sure

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:07:31

        ... what that standing meditation is, sort of internally what the, what you're focusing on or not focusing on, et cetera.

    17. TBTara Brach1:07:38

        Sure. And, and any one of the compon- I- the first part is really pausing. It's like getting that, ah, okay, I've stopped this forward motion. It's like we al- we always have this sense that we're on our way somewhere. So there's really a sense of, okay, I'm pausing to be right here, and that this moment matters as much as any moment in the whole universe. 'Cause we tend to, we tend to think that this isn't what's important. It's yet to come or it's back there. So to really just pause. And there's a, a beautiful quote from Victor Frankl that says, "Between the stimulus and the response, there is a space. And in that space is your power and your freedom." So that, that's the beginning. It's just getting, okay, pausing and arriving. And then-

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:08:27

        And are your eyes open or closed?

    19. TBTara Brach1:08:30

        They're cl- well, sometimes they'll start open and really take in the... You know, I'm right by a stream, and right now there's, uh, you know, incredible, you know, s- the birds and the sounds of the currents and everything. It's, uh, it's quite lovely. But so I'll take it all in, but, but, but I'll close my eyes eventually just to kind of quiet my mind more. So I begin, um, very much with a, a kind of, uh, a sweep through the body, uh, you know, with my awareness. And I will s- kind of starting from the head down, I'll just soften and relax different parts of my body so that I'm feeling the life from the inside out. So I'm feeling a sense of sensation. So if you're listening and you just close your eyes, and I sometimes will use the image of a smile to help to deepen that sense of presence and ease, that you can sense the eyes smiling. You can smile into your eyes and feel the corners of the eyes up a little and let the brow be smooth. So there's just a way of softening in the eyes. Because when we're thinking a lot, when we're in that home movie that's filled with a kind of incessant inner dialogue and a lot of, a lot of fear usually or stress, um, the t- the little muscles around the eyes are tense. So by softening the eyes and letting the brow be smooth, that, that actually helps the mind to quiet some. And you can actually put a half smile on the mouth, and, uh, it's amazing. There's a lot of research on this too, [laughs] that if you have a little bit of a smile and you can feel the inside of your mouth smiling, that that actually sends a message to your whole nervous system to, you can relax the whole fight-flight-freeze constellation and access more of, um, in evolutionary terms it's called attend and befriend, that there's just more of a benevolent witnessing when there's a slight smile. So that's another trick. And again, even if you're not sitting for a long meditation, just pausing and closing your eyes and relaxing the eyes and having a little bit of a smile itself, just even a 30-second pause can shift you from the sympathetic nervous system, which is really, uh, very defensive and aggressive to the parasympathetic, which is much more ease-filled. So I sweep down the eyes, the mouth. I, I go to the shoulders and let the shoulders fall away from my neck some so that I can just soften in the shoulders. And even a- again, as you're sitting, you might feel the shoulders from the inside and see if it's possible to have a little bit of that, that melting of ice to water. Ice to water, and then water to gas, kind of letting go. And it's really, really helpful to let the hands rest in a, um, a very easy, effortless way because when I have my hands by my side or if you have your hands in your lap, because again, when we're stressed, we have these micro muscles that tense in the hands. So by consciously softening your hands, you're actually deconditioning that stress, stress reaction.

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:11:59

        This was actually a question that a number of readers had, which was, uh, sort of like, uh, Ricky Bobby, I think, in Talli- Talladega, Talladega Nights. No, it was Anchorman. "I don't know what to do with my hands. I don't know what to do with my hands."

    21. TBTara Brach1:12:10

        [laughs]

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:12:10

        And so they were asking, when I'm sitting in a sitting meditation, does it matter what you do with your hands, as long as they're relaxed?

    23. TBTara Brach1:12:17

        Doesn't. There are d- what are called mudras that are hand positions that in a refined yoga kind of perspective have energy circulating a certain way. But the deeper purpose of practice, if you're training your mind to pay attention, if you just soften and relax your hands, there'll be a flow, and you won't be, um, perpetuating tension.

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:12:40

        Do you want your hands together?

    25. TBTara Brach1:12:42

        They can be touching lightly, but you can also place them palms down on your, right above your knees-

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:12:49

        Mm-hmm

    27. TBTara Brach1:12:49

        ... and just let it be a light touch there, and just feel the contact, the warmth, the tingling, and that's fine too.

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:12:57

        Yeah. I've, uh, I've sometimes placed, when I'm sitting with my back straight, uh, which, and I always have a cushion behind me because I find it too stressful to do freestanding. But if I, if I put my arms, this is, this is gonna sound like probably the worst idea ever, but when I, when I sort of sit, I, I, I sometimes sit in a posture that's similar to what I used to do for judo before practice. They would have you do- Mokuso. They'd have you do a short meditation before and afterwards, and you basically put your palms close to the crease in your hip so that your elbows are just kind of flared out to the sides a bit. But, uh, for my 20-minute meditation, I can t- tell almost to the second when it's 20 minutes because my wrists start to tingle. [laughs]

    29. TBTara Brach1:13:43

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:13:43

        But, uh, the, uh... I don't want to interrupt y- the description of standing meditation, but are you doing the sweep then for... How long do you do the sweep from top to bottom?
11. 1:15:06 – 1:26:16

    Starting a Practice: Breath, Naming, and Skillful Means

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:15:06

       And, and I want to emphasize just a couple things that have been helpful for me, and I'd, I'd l- feel free to veto any of these. Um-

    2. TBTara Brach1:15:12

       [laughs] Uh-huh

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:15:13

       ... because I'm, I'm still on training wheels. But, uh, I know a lot of people in, out there haven't even tried to get on the bike with training wheels. So m- a few things. Number one is, uh, I have, uh, found that just the sitting alone has huge benefits, uh, whether or not I feel I've been able to quiet my mind in any way. So if I, if I sit down for 20 minutes with very upright posture, sort of imagining like a thread being pulled from the, the, the crown to, to lengthen the spine, and really try to w- float my head into a place over my shoulders and neck so that it feels weightless to the extent possible, uh, I've found so many calming benefits, postural benefits after even a week or two. I've never had so many compliments on my posture ever.

    4. TBTara Brach1:16:05

       [laughs]

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:16:05

       I've never had compliments about my posture, period, in my life 'cause I'm built like a monkey and a caveman and wrestled for too long. So I have terrible posture. But after a week or two, sort of having compliments on my posture and my, my walking gait and everything had changed. And found tr- tremendous benefits of just sitting with that upright, not hunched over a laptop po- posture, uh, even if I felt like my meditation was, quote, a failure, end quote, because I was just running through my to-do list or whatever for 20 minutes, uh, and unable to turn off that monkey mind. Uh, so I would just say that, um, you know, what, what would you suggest for someone just getting started who's always been turned off of meditation for any number of associations they might have with meditation, mindfulness? What, what is a good place to start? So for instance, there's a guy named BJ Fogg who's done a lot of research at Stanford, and if he, if he wants someone to start flossing, for instance, regularly, he'll say, "Don't start with your whole mouth. Just floss your front teeth." And he'll give them just the smallest, uh, task possible to start building momentum and-

    6. TBTara Brach1:17:16

       That's exactly right, and that's the way, um, we do it too. In fact, I'm- got a program coming out I think in January called Mindful 40, which is 40 days, and you can really, really get the practice down. Uh, and we do 10 minutes a day, and it's five minutes is some, you know, background and then five minutes of a meditation. So I'm with you, Tim. I think starting with a commitment, no matter what, to every day helps a lot because nature loves rhythms. And you can build a habit with that kind of, um, everyday practicing. But here, here, here are the basic ingredients, is that it's useful at the beginning to have a place that's quiet and that you're not gonna get interrupted, and it's useful to close your eyes just because that will... You know, there's less stimuli visually that stimulates associations. And it's useful to sit still for a few minutes and know that you're just doing this as a, this is your evolutionary strategy [laughs] for bringing out your best, and just a few minutes of sitting still. And one of my friends says, "You put your tush on your cush, and you take what you get. It doesn't matter what happens."

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:18:27

       [laughs]

    8. TBTara Brach1:18:27

       You know? You just, just sit there. Now, there are, of course, all sorts of very helpful guidelines on how to direct your attention that will help to not only quiet your mind but wake up your senses. And one of the things that I most love about the effect of meditation is I'm more in my body. It's like I go through the day, and I'm less in that trance of thinking where I'm in a kind of that, I think of it as a home movie, where I'm just off somewhere else. And I feel more of, um, aliveness and energy through my body, and my senses are more awake. You know, I'm more taking in the colors and the forms and the scents and so on. So it is sit still for a few minutes, come into your body as well as you can. The breath is a very good, uh, home base or anchor if you wanna kind of calmly just kind of be with the breath. And that's it for starters.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:19:26

       And one, one tip that I think you gave in Radical Acceptance that I found very helpful, and it seems like such a, a, I wouldn't say trivial, I mean, that, that min- minimizes it, but it seems it, it's had a larger impact than I expected. [laughs] So when I've been told in the past, like, "Focus on your breath, and then when your mind wanders, just gently bring it br- back to the breath," I was like, "What does that mean to gently bring it back to the breath? I don't know how to do that. What specifically-

    10. TBTara Brach1:19:56

        Mm-hmm

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:19:56

        ... are you asking me to do?" And, and, and a few things really helped. Uh, one for me was focusing on the breath. I, I've always found it, and still find it, very difficult, I think this is partially because I, I'm a chest breather, but to feel the breath in the stomach. And I remember someone said, "Just focus on the feeling of the breath on the outer rim of your nostrils." [laughs] And I was like-

    12. TBTara Brach1:20:15

        Mm

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:20:15

        ... "What?" And I started doing that, and it really worked well for me. So focusing sort of on the sensation of the breath at the very outside of the nostrils. I'm inhaling and exhaling. But the point from Radical Acceptance was focusing on the breath, and sometimes I'll just say, like, "Inhale, exhale" as I'm doing that. Um, and I'd like to talk about the, uh, the sort of pros and cons of, of TM in a second. But the, the ... When I would start thinking about something, whatever it would be, uh, and not the breath, I would just say, "Thinking, thinking," and then come back to the breath. That was, that sort of became my cue. And I think, I'm almost certain that there were examples of that in Radical Acceptance, but I don't wanna attribute something to you that [laughs] if I'm, if I'm off base.

    14. TBTara Brach1:20:59

        Yeah.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:20:59

        But, but I started using that throughout the day, too. When I would get angry, my, my way of... or impatient, my way of sort of, um, saying hello to Mara would just be to say, "Hmm, impatient, impatient," [laughs] or, "Oh, angry, angry." And it was just enough of a pattern interrupt to allow me a greater degree of, of, of self-control and more, like, responsiveness, choosing to respond as opposed to being reactive. But-

    16. TBTara Brach1:21:28

        Exactly. Well, that's, it is in Radical Acceptance, and it's one of the most important support strategies. You know, c- uh, naming or noting what's going on, it's really, really helpful. So with the breath, pick wherever the breath is easiest and most present to detect. So for you, it might be the rim of the nostrils is refined enough and yet distinctive enough. And for somebody else, feeling the, um, whole body breathing can be doing it. And for some people, the breath itself is not a good anchor. I know people that have had trauma around breathing, and that's not the best anchor, so listen to sound instead. But you're right, when the mind wanders and you wanna bring it back, if you just name what's going on, if you just name, "I'm thinking or worrying or planning or fantasizing," sometimes you can even name which of, you know, we call it the top, top 10 hits, you know? [laughs]

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:22:20

        [laughs]

    18. TBTara Brach1:22:20

        Like, which of the top 10 is going on right now? Okay, you know, like, basically, you know, pissed at my partner for not doing his or her share. Whatever it is.

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:22:29

        [laughs]

    20. TBTara Brach1:22:30

        You can name it. And if you name it... And here's the cool thing. When you name something, you're not as identified with it. And that, that's the thing. It doesn't control you as much. There's a, there's a saying that when a shaman names a fear, they have power over it. So when you name thinking, you're no longer in the cloud of thought. You're opened up to something larger, and then you can choose, is, is this thought useful, is it not? Often, you know, most of the time our thoughts are very habitual and they're fear-driven. And they just perpetuate a sense of being, you know, a victim or being at risk or being endangered or being stressed. And if you can catch when you're in one of those flurries and just say, "Oh, thinking, thinking," it's p- it creates some space. You can relax open again to a bigger world.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:23:21

        Well, I also, uh, [laughs] you know, was thinking of a quote that I actually put in The 4-Hour Workweek, which was, "Named must your fear be before banish it you can," which is, of course, by Yoda. So if it's good enough for Yoda.

    22. TBTara Brach1:23:33

        Yay, Yoda.

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:23:34

        [laughs]

    24. TBTara Brach1:23:35

        Yeah, no, that's good. That's good, good, good.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:23:36

        Uh, the, the, uh, s- so sitting for 10 minutes, uh, the way I actually started, and I know this is a, it's probably a terrible bastardization, but just for those people who might find this useful. A friend of mine, uh, named Kamal Ravikant actually recommended that I try this because I was having so much trouble meditating what I, uh, in a way that I could view as successful, right? And of course, in a, in a way, the people who need to meditate, [laughs] the-

    26. TBTara Brach1:24:05

        Mm-hmm

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:24:05

        ... I'm not gonna say the most, but are the people who are obsessed with doing thing, everything successfully, right?

    28. TBTara Brach1:24:10

        Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:24:10

        So, and, and, and yet, at the same time, they're the most p- they, they might be the people most likely to quit. [laughs] So-

    30. TBTara Brach1:24:15

        Exactly right. Yep
12. 1:26:16 – 1:31:25

    Comparing Transcendental Meditation and Mindfulness

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:26:16

       transcendental meditation, what, what are your thoughts on it? Uh, I, and just for what it's worth, I'm not a, a, a purist or a militant TM person. It just happened to be the first thing that I did consistently, but I also, uh, do quite a lot of... There are days or weeks even when I, I will do what people might consider Vipassana meditation. But what-

    2. TBTara Brach1:26:37

       Mm-hmm

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:26:37

       ... what do you view as the, the pros, cons, um, of, say, a TM? And just, just to throw it out there, one of the cons for me is the fact that in most circumstances people have to pay whatever it is, 1,500 bucks, for basic training and a mantra, which I think is extremely cost-prohibitive for, for, for most folks. And, uh, it really had me raise a ton of red flags. Um, but I found the accountability of having a four-day, four lunchtime meetings in a row to be necessary to get me to comply to doing the meditation-

    4. TBTara Brach1:27:16

       Mm-hmm

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:27:16

       ... twice, twice a day for four days. And so that was the main gift.

    6. TBTara Brach1:27:19

       Mm-hmm.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:27:19

       It was really having a sunk cost, which made me feel compelled to do it, number one. And num- and number two, having an accountability, which I think other people can probably engineer in a million other ways. But what, what are you, what are your feelings on TM?

    8. TBTara Brach1:27:35

       Well, first a lot of people from the old days found their way into meditation through TM because it was one of the earliest and most well-known. So just, you know, and we have many, many people that practice mindfulness that started with TM. So, and there's, with every... I think one of the things, I always have my antennas go up when any, uh, particular style claims that it's the, the best or the one and the only.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:28:00

       [laughs] Right.

    10. TBTara Brach1:28:00

        Like, I'm, I have, I mean, I'm very fundamentalist about being non-fundamentalist, so, [laughs] you know, it's like that one always gets to me. 'Cause I think that different personalities and temperaments benefit from different things. And, and clearly for you, having that structure served you. So I like that, I like that there's a structure. For some people, there's different styles of that structure. Um, I too, I, I offer everyth- all my meditations for free, and I just feel like this came to me. You know, it, this is given from the universe and I wanna give it back. And, and I, so I like whenever possible not to have to charge for something in this domain of waking up. So that always... And, and I also like that it be very available to populations that are underserved or can't afford it. So that's, that's a- another piece. But in terms of the actual meditation, TM is, is primarily a concentrative practice. You're taking a mantra or a set of sacred words and repeating them and repeating them. And the benefit of concentration, which is a narrowing of the lens of focus, is that it actually collects the attention and the mind gets quiet. And when the mind's quiet, there can be experiences of bliss and serenity and peace and so on. So that, that's what TM does. It gives you a break from that, uh, incessant inner dialogue. And the more you practice it, the, the more easily it is to collect the mind. Now, there are other ways to, there are other focuses for concentration other than a TM mantra, but that, that's the way TM works. For me, the limitation is it doesn't allow you to see into the nature of reality. And by that I mean it doesn't bring a kind of presence that allows you to sense what's actually happening now. Uh, most of our understanding of reality is conceptual. We, you know, we have ideas about things. And to really have a, a, you know, a clear penetrating insight, um, we need to be present. And TM doesn't... It's like it aims the mind at something, but it doesn't open the attention so that whatever arises, you start learning how to be with it. And to me, the power and freedom of mindfulness is you start getting the knack of being with whatever arises. And one of the things I'm, I'm very aware of is that most of us are, you know, we, we're aware of our mortality and we're tensing against what can go wrong. And so we go around our day, and in some way there's this tension about what's around the corner that might be overwhelming. And we're not always aware of that tension, but it stops us from fully savoring and luxuriating and being creative and alive in the moment. And what tra- what deconditions that tension is when we unconditionally open to the life that's right here, and we don't resist it, and we realize that, wow, there is space for what's here, even when it's unpleasant. Even when we're, even when we're sensing a dying of some sort. To me, the gift of meditation is it actually teaches us how to be with living and dying. And so I don't, I don't feel that... I think TM offers a support in one part of, uh, meditation training, but it doesn't go the whole way.

13. 1:31:25 – 1:40:59

    Recommended Resources and Mindfulness in Schools

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:31:25

       What, what, uh, so aside from your own books, which I recommend to everyone listening, um, a few things. If people wanted to start with two or three of your guided meditations, and if they, they view themselves as, uh- Sort of stubborn A-driven types. [laughs]

    2. TBTara Brach1:31:47

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:31:47

       Which, which meditations might you suggest that they start with?

    4. TBTara Brach1:31:52

       Well, on my website there's a, a landing page for guided meditations, and they're all, you know, they're all free and they usually are anywhere from 12 minutes to, you know, 25 minutes. And you can start them and, and if, you know... y- they, they start off with really guiding us into presence, and then they keep going. You can even stop them. Um, I would use one of the featured ones. Those are the ones that are most generically useful. But also just play around. It really helps to have guided meditations to begin, 'cause y- you'll eventually internalize. You'll get an inner meditation teacher, [laughs] you know?

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:32:31

       Right.

    6. TBTara Brach1:32:31

       But hear- but hearing it and hearing kind of a few different versions will give you a sense of what works best for you. 'Cause sometimes I'll emphasize how to relax through the body, and sometimes I'll emphasize how to really connect with the breath. And at other times, meditations on self-compassion or forgiveness. So there's a lot of different, uh, styles and, and types to play with.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:32:53

       And what is your website?

    8. TBTara Brach1:32:56

       It's tarabrach.com.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:32:58

       You, that's, that's straight and simple, and I'll put that in the show notes, everybody, as well as, uh, other links to resources and so on. The, uh, do you have... So The Rolling Stones have, let's say, Satisfaction, right? Everybody knows Satisfaction. They love it. It's a crowd pleaser. Are there any of those meditations that are kinda like your Satisfaction? Are there any, uh [laughs] are there any that, that appear to resonate with a higher percentage of people than others?

    10. TBTara Brach1:33:25

        Y-

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:33:25

        And of course, I'll encourage people to... They're, th- people are gonna be hopefully enjoying these for more than one day, so they can test quite a few. But if you, if you had to give your, your, uh, your hits, what, what might those be?

    12. TBTara Brach1:33:38

        Well, the name, I've, I don't remember the names, but I have featured meditations on the landing page for guided meditations.

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:33:46

        Mm-hmm.

    14. TBTara Brach1:33:47

        And just choose it according to length, 'cause there's pretty much the same content in them. So-

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:33:53

        Got it

    16. TBTara Brach1:33:53

        ... but they're right there, and they're, they're easy to find. And then there's also, um, the audio talks page, which gives the kind of background of understandings and so on that really help us to not only start a practice, but, and sustain it, but really bring it into our lives. 'Cause the big deal... I mean, you know, everybody talks about sitting practice. The really, the big deal is can you and I be talking right now and still have that quality of remembrance, where we're in touch with what matters, where we're embodied enough so we can feel feelings. You know, we, we tend to cut off so, uh, habitually in our lives. And as you described earlier, we're so plugged into so many different virtual realities that, um, to me, the big challenge and invitation is can we get more real and alive in our day, and less habituated and less automatic? And, and so that's the carryover.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:34:52

        What, uh, outside of your own books, what's, say, two to three books for people who want to delve further into meditation, mindfulness, et cetera, are, are there any other books that, that you would recommend?

    18. TBTara Brach1:35:07

        I... Well, Jack Kornfield, who I teach with a lot and love, he's a very good friend, um, has a couple of books that are very good. His, his classic is A Path with Heart. And the other book that is, is I think wonderful, I love Pema Chödrön, and Pema Chödrön has, her, one of her classics is When Things Fall Apart. So those are, those are two right there that really, really help, you know, help guide into the practices and, and really help heal the heart.

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:35:44

        Is, uh, and this is, this does not have to be specific to meditation or Buddhism or anything like that, but what book have you gifted the most to other people, or books?

    20. TBTara Brach1:35:55

        Hmm. Hmm. Might have to come back to that, 'cause I sometimes I'll just, I gift, uh, The Essential Rumi, which is a collection of poetry by Coleman Barks that, um, I think is really, really beautiful. Or poetry by the poet Hafiz.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:36:12

        Mm-hmm.

    22. TBTara Brach1:36:12

        Um, so sometimes it'll be poetry books that I'll, I'll gift. Um, you know, I, I really v- value Eckhart To- Tolle's books. You know, I think he's done a great job. I think Adyashanti's done fabulously, um, even more with his, his, um, audio, you know, his, his talks and even his books, but his books also are wonderful. So there's-

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:36:33

        What was the name again?

    24. TBTara Brach1:36:35

        Adyashanti. It's A-D-Y-A.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:36:39

        Got it.

    26. TBTara Brach1:36:40

        Adya Shanti, S-H-A-N-T-I.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:36:44

        What does Shanti mean? Because I've, I've, I've seen this word pop up quite a lot. I'm looking it up right here.

    28. TBTara Brach1:36:53

        Peace.

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:36:54

        Peace.

    30. TBTara Brach1:36:54

        It means peace.
14. 1:40:59 – 1:51:32

    FOMO, Sabbaticals, and Feeling Fear

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:40:59

       If I look at my circle of friends in Silicon Valley, if I look at my circle of friends in New York, and certainly I think in many other cities around the world or just i, in many other places around the world, there is an increasing, uh, severe problem with FOMO, as we call it here. Fear Of Missing Out.

    2. TBTara Brach1:41:22

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:41:22

       So this, and this can manifest itself in many different ways. People feel like they can't stay away from email for 30 minutes because they'll get backlogged.

    4. TBTara Brach1:41:30

       Mm-hmm.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:41:30

       And there's a fear of missing either a problem or missing some type of opportunity. Uh, in my particular case, you know, I've talked to a number of friends of mine who are involved with startup investing and whatnot about taking a startup vacation. I would like to take a three-month, 100% vacation from new startup investments because it's become, uh, s- something of a source of stress for me. I think things are very unstable right now and, uh-

    6. TBTara Brach1:41:56

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:41:56

       ... irrational.

    8. TBTara Brach1:41:57

       Mm-hmm.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:41:58

       And the, the feedback almost universally has been, "You shouldn't do that. Don't make any kind of public proclamation because then you'll stop seeing deals, and then before you know it, you'll be out of the loop, and then you won't be able to get back into it when you wanna get back into it." And so there's this very... And that, as you might imagine, puts me on edge because I, I d- I've found that there's certain things that I feel I need to categorically say no to, even if just for a period of time. I can't do it 80%. If I try to do it 80%

    10. TBTara Brach1:42:27

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:42:28

        ... then I'll look at everything and it b- it just becomes, uh, self-defeating, right? It, it, d- I won't make any progress. So how would you, how would you think about or encourage people to think about this, this fear of missing out, where they feel like they constantly have to be in the loop or accessible or fill in the blank? Because it, it seems to be a huge source of stress for, uh, for almost everyone that I know.

    12. TBTara Brach1:42:55

        You're right. And I think it's getting more so because of, um, the degree of the internet and plug- uh, 'cause we're always plugged in on so many levels. Um, you know the book The Shallows? Did you read that?

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:43:06

        I, no, I don't actually.

    14. TBTara Brach1:43:07

        I can't remember the name of the author, but it's really describing how technology actually shapes and, um, changes our brain. And, you know, whether it's the, the onset of typewriter changing, 'cause instead of w- handwriting, which brings out a certain part of our brain, um, you know, having a typewriter. But being plugged in all the time, our brain is changing and we're actually taking in a lot more information but at a lot more of a shallow level, not so dimensional, and we've lost our capacity to actually immerse and drop into the deeper, more subtle dimensions of things. It's actually a change in the brain, that people that used to be, um, very avid, deep readers just can't get themselves to. There's a kind of attention deficit when it comes to certain things. And what- The internet promotes is a sense of missing out because there's so much coming in from so many different angles that you always get the sense that you're missing it, that there's just something else that you need to be plugged into. And I mean, one of my favorite little cartoons is of this man and a woman sitting in the living room, and he's saying to her, "You know, if I ever become a vegetable, just pull the plug." At which point she goes over to the TV set and she yanks out the, the plug, [laughs] you know?

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:44:21

        [laughs]

    16. TBTara Brach1:44:22

        And, and what I like about it is just like we're, we get, we get into kind of an existential anxiety when we're not plugged in, like the world is moving on without us. And how to deal with it, the first is what you're doing, which is name it. Name it, and really get that this is a product of the times, that, that we're at a very speedy time. The, and, and, and it's accelerating. We're, um, you know, there's like a, there's a relationship with the, the Chinese word for busyness that has to, that's in relationship to heart killing.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:44:57

        Yeah. It's-

    18. TBTara Brach1:44:58

        That the speedy-

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:44:58

        Mang

    20. TBTara Brach1:44:58

        ... the speedier we get-

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:45:00

        Yeah.

    22. TBTara Brach1:45:00

        Yeah.

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:45:00

        Mang.

    24. TBTara Brach1:45:01

        You can feel it.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:45:01

        Yeah. The, the left side of the character means heart, and the right side means death. Yep. [laughs]

    26. TBTara Brach1:45:06

        It's amazing. And so I can say for myself, Tim, that when I'm in my, like, that fear of not being prepared or the fear of missing out, my heart's not so open. If my son calls and I'm in the middle of it, I really am not able to take in him, what's really going on for him, 'cause there's some part of me that's tense and on my way somewhere else. So it feels, uh, like, first of all, to have the aspiration to be free from that trance is the first step. To recognize it's going on and know that you can be a more full, more productive, more real being when you're not constantly being tugged around by that something more or something else. And then the second piece is, you know, if I think of people that are really good teachers, or people that are really good writers, people that really have done the music that, that goes to people's soul, they retreat. They, they unplug. They take space. They, they step out of the busyness and all- and, and open themselves to something bigger, something wider, something more, um, mysterious and, and fluid in order for that to happen. And for you, and I, I feel this in particular for you, 'cause I feel like you're, you've got, um, you're very plugged into the pulse in a very good way, and your sensitivity and attunement will get even deeper if you can take sabbaticals.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:46:39

        Agreed.

    28. TBTara Brach1:46:39

        'Cause it, what'll happen is it'll break... We all get habitual to some degree, and the trick is, can we keep on recognizing and opening out of any of the habits that stop us from being as sensitive and attuned as possible? And, and so you need a sabbatical to do that.

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:47:00

        And w- what, how would you contend with the, the fear of that s- the unintended side effects of that sabbatical, right? So f-

    30. TBTara Brach1:47:13

        Yeah
15. 1:51:32 – 2:08:41

    Billboard, Personal Tastes, and Parting Advice

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:51:32

       If you could have a billboard anywhere, uh, and you could have it say anything that you liked, what, what, uh, what would it say, and where would it be?

    2. TBTara Brach1:51:43

       It would say, uh, "Realize and live from the loving awareness that's really who you are."

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:51:52

       Where would you put that?

    4. TBTara Brach1:51:55

       Oh, I'm not sure. [laughs] You know?

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:51:58

       [laughs] Times Square. You could put it-

    6. TBTara Brach1:52:01

       Yeah

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:52:01

       ... yeah, who knows.

    8. TBTara Brach1:52:02

       I'm not sure I'd put it inside everyone's heart and mind. You know, it's like, I feel like, you know, the Buddha said it pretty elegantly, that if you're suffering, it's because you're forgetting who you are.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:52:14

       Mm.

    10. TBTara Brach1:52:14

        You're, you're living in a, in a smaller narrative, and that really each of our jobs is to start recognizing how, what are, what am I believing that's limiting me? What am I believing that's keeping me small, separate, either feeling deficient or feeling superior? Because, you know, I talk about the trance of unworthiness, but I can honestly say that I am as much in the chance, trance of specialness as unworthiness, and both of them cause suffering, you know? [laughs]

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:52:43

        Right, right.

    12. TBTara Brach1:52:43

        It's not, it's, it's, it's not, it's about really waking up and realizing that there's a basic goodness here. There's, there's a humanness and an aliveness and intelligence and a love. It's what we are. And we all have our particular qualities, but, you know, we're, there's this basic goodness. So a lot of what I'm doing in my books and in my teachings is how do we pay attention so we can come to trust that and live from that, and then look at each other? Like, so I can be listening to you and sense, past any mask or persona, just that, um, you know, just that consciousness, the sentience, the place that we're really in the same field.

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:53:25

        Mm-hmm. I have so many questions I could ask, but I know we're, we're probably coming up on time, and I don't want to consume your entire afternoon. But I, I do have a few more I'd love to ask. And, uh, the, you're mentioning knowing thyself. Uh, and actually before I get to that, just a quick side note for people who do face a lot of fire in the public world. Uh, when I first got, uh, exposed with the success of the first book, and it was turned down by whatever it was, 27 publishers, no one expected it to do anything, and all of a sudden I was having to contend with a lot of, uh, public-facing angst. And, uh, someone said to me, "You're never as good as they say you are, and you're never as bad as they say you are."

    14. TBTara Brach1:54:11

        [laughs]

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:54:11

        And I was like, "Wow, that's good advice."

    16. TBTara Brach1:54:14

        Yeah.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:54:14

        Uh, don't let it go to your head, but don't, uh, get chopped off at the knees either.

    18. TBTara Brach1:54:18

        Mm-hmm.

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:54:18

        So, so the, the, I'm gonna ask a couple of questions that are, are less, uh, maybe less serious than-

    20. TBTara Brach1:54:24

        Mm-hmm

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:54:24

        ... than some of those we've tackled. But, um, feel free to answer or not answer or, uh, however you feel you need to respond. But, so the first is, um, what, what music would people be surprised to know you like or listen to?

    22. TBTara Brach1:54:43

        Mm. Surprised. Um, I'm not sure of surprised. I love Mozart and Beethoven.

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:54:50

        [laughs]

    24. TBTara Brach1:54:50

        I love classical music. I'm not thinking that's gonna be a surprise.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:54:54

        You don't, you don't listen to, like, Marilyn Manson when you're working out or anything?

    26. TBTara Brach1:54:57

        Oh, when I'm working out. But you didn't ask me that. [laughs]

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:55:00

        [laughs]

    28. TBTara Brach1:55:02

        You know, my son widened my taste, so, you know, so I can, I have a capacity to enjoy a whole lot of different art forms. But, you know, I don't like a lot of ... I like silence.

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:55:11

        Mm-hmm.

    30. TBTara Brach1:55:11

        I like quiet.

Episode duration: 2:08:41