The Future of AI, Bioelectric Medicine, Surviving Modern Dating, and More — The Random Show

1. 0:00 – 0:43

   Preview

   1. KRKevin Rose0:00

      One of the things that I would caution people against is forming an opinion about AI and then locking yourself in time around that opinion. Like, I'll give you a great practical example. I have a lot of engineers that said, "Hey, I tried AI for coding. It was horrible." And my first question is, "When did you try it?" And they said, "Oh, three months ago." And I'm like, "No, no, you don't understand. It's three to four times better than it was three months ago," [laughs] right?

   2. TFTim Ferriss0:24

      Yeah.

   3. KRKevin Rose0:24

      And so we have to make sure that even if you are looking at some of these technologies and say, "Hey, it can't do X," or, "It's horrible, it's hallucinating in this way, it's giving me the wrong answer," this is, without a doubt, the massive Motorola block phone version of the iPhone. [laughs]

   4. TFTim Ferriss0:40

      [laughs]

   5. KRKevin Rose0:40

      Like, we are in that realm of

2. 0:43 – 7:55

   Why Kevin concluded nearly seven months of sobriety, and the 2-2-2 Rule he now follows for alcohol consumption.

   1. KRKevin Rose0:43

      AI.

   2. TFTim Ferriss0:44

      Kev Kev, good to see you.

   3. KRKevin Rose0:45

      Tim Tim. Another episode of The Random Show. Glad to be back. This is awesome.

   4. TFTim Ferriss0:49

      Another episode of The Random Show. You look very dashing. For people who can't see you-

   5. KRKevin Rose0:53

      Hmm

   6. TFTim Ferriss0:53

      ... you have sort of hair slicked back, jacket with wide open lapels reminiscent of a leather jacket. You look like a leading man from The Outsiders, that movie back in the day. You just need, like, a cigarette in your pocket and some other goodies, but you're looking good. Looking good. You also have, as you disclosed to me, your secret weapon nearby, an Ikea light that is providing very seductive-

   7. KRKevin Rose1:20

      Yeah

   8. TFTim Ferriss1:20

      ... shadows and contours on your face, so well done.

   9. KRKevin Rose1:22

      Yeah, I think we're both kind of hacking it together today. [laughs]

   10. TFTim Ferriss1:25

       Yeah. To- today has been putting together the boxcar on the way down the hill, in a sense, from an equipment standpoint, but here we are.

   11. KRKevin Rose1:33

       Here we are.

   12. TFTim Ferriss1:34

       Now, you asked me to grab a glass of wine, which I didn't do. I, I ended up grabbing a glass of gin, Caledonia Spirits Barr Hill Gin, for anybody who's curious. I do like my gin. B-A-R-R Hill. But this might surprise people, and it surprised me, because last time we spoke, I think you had hit, what was it? Six months sober. So what, what is unfolding before our very eyes?

   13. KRKevin Rose2:06

       Well, what's unfolding is a glass of champagne, is what's unfolding.

   14. TFTim Ferriss2:08

       Uh-huh. [laughs]

   15. KRKevin Rose2:08

       But I will say that I almost made it to seven months, but then I just decided... My, my original goal was three months, then I made it to six, and, you know, was I gonna continue to go on like this? And I had hung out with some friends. We had a dinner in San Francisco, and I thought, "You know, I'm gonna have a glass of vino. I'm just gonna have a glass of wine because-"

   16. TFTim Ferriss2:29

       Mm-hmm

   17. KRKevin Rose2:29

       ... there was a great book, you know the book Awareness, which you've recommended to me.

   18. TFTim Ferriss2:33

       It's one of my favorites. I have one of my many copies downstairs right now.

   19. KRKevin Rose2:38

       Yeah, so Anthony de Mello, Jesuit priest, correct? Is that right?

   20. TFTim Ferriss2:43

       Jesuit priest who is also a psychotherapist, who has now since passed, but incredibly, incredibly compelling writing. I'm sure we'll get more-

   21. KRKevin Rose2:53

       Yes

   22. TFTim Ferriss2:53

       ... into this, because I listened to the audiobook you recommended, so we'll come back to that.

   23. KRKevin Rose2:58

       Oh, cool. Awesome.

   24. TFTim Ferriss2:58

       But all right, so take us back to the story you were telling. So you're sitting there at dinner.

   25. KRKevin Rose3:04

       Well, prior to that, I'd re-listened to that book-

   26. TFTim Ferriss3:07

       Mm-hmm

   27. KRKevin Rose3:07

       ... and I got it on audio, and one of the things that hit me that he said in the book was-

   28. TFTim Ferriss3:13

       I know what it was. Can I guess?

   29. KRKevin Rose3:15

       Yeah, go for it

   30. TFTim Ferriss3:15

       ... that abstinence or renunciation is as much a trap or can be as much a trap as anything else because it ties you, it binds you to the thing that you are abstaining from.
3. 7:55 – 19:49

   My recent adventures in accelerated TMS and bioelectric medicine.

   1. TFTim Ferriss7:55

      Yeah, let's go for it. So I'll share an update on my side, which folks might find interesting. As you know, and long-term listeners know, I have been [laughs] one way you could put it, is an early adopter looking at bioelectric medicine of different types, whether that is legitimate vagus nerve stimulation. By the way, there aren't many options that would fall in that category. Interviewing people like Dr. Kevin Tracey, but also looking at, most acutely, transcranial magnetic stimulation, so TMS-

   2. KRKevin Rose8:28

      Mm-hmm

   3. TFTim Ferriss8:30

      ... which is a form of brain stimulation, I'll keep it simple, that has existed for decades, but there was an innovation by the very recently late Nolan Williams, sadly, and others, called accelerated TMS, where you basically take something like 50 stimulations, like f- 50 different sessions, and you compress it into, you know, one week, as opposed to doing it over the course of many months. And this type of dense dosing schedule produces some, in many people, incredible effects. And you saw me after my first experience of accelerated TMS, which was with a device called MagVenture device. It uses neurotargeting, so you need a resting state fMRI and so on to determine where they're actually going to place this stimulation, depending on your condition and your own individual neuroanatomy and activity. So if it's depression, they might point it in one direction or in one place. If it's anxiety or OCD, they might point it somewhere else. And I effectively had, let's just call it, eight or nine out of 10 kind of resting state generalized anxiety.

   4. KRKevin Rose9:41

      Was this self-reported? Meaning, like, when you went in there to get the resting state scan, were you like, "Hey, I'm coming in here with ED and general anxiety."

   5. TFTim Ferriss9:48

      [laughs]

   6. KRKevin Rose9:49

      "I need you to treat this for me"?

   7. TFTim Ferriss9:51

      Did you say ED? [laughs]

   8. KRKevin Rose9:52

      Yeah, yeah. I, I know it's an issue.

   9. TFTim Ferriss9:54

      [laughs]

   10. KRKevin Rose9:56

       Oh, we can cut this if you want. We can cut this.

   11. TFTim Ferriss9:58

       [laughs] Jesus. Yeah, nice. Nice.

   12. KRKevin Rose10:00

       [laughs]

   13. TFTim Ferriss10:01

       Very, very cute. [laughs]

   14. KRKevin Rose10:03

       No, but I'm, all, uh, joking aside, like-

   15. TFTim Ferriss10:05

       [laughs]

   16. KRKevin Rose10:05

       ... how did you, how did you determine the areas? Did you have to tell them, like, "This is what I'm coming in to treat"?

   17. TFTim Ferriss10:10

       Oh, for sure.

   18. KRKevin Rose10:11

       Or is this something they see?

   19. TFTim Ferriss10:12

       They do interviews and assessments that are qualitative, let's just say, asking you what your symptoms are. Why are you coming here in the first place? Then they would dig into the details, and then they would run you through various standardized tests or assessments. So you might have the MADRS, you might have the HAM-D, you might have the Y-BOCS. They're different assessments that are accepted as standardized for diagnosing, say, OCD or any number of other psychiatric conditions. And then you get a, an fMRI, so you get this scan of your brain, which I did at, I think it was Mass General in Massachusetts, as you would guess, and based on that, they can do some precision targeting. And just to give people the upshot of that, I did five days of stimulations, and that gave me basically three to four months of effectively a zero on a scale of zero to 10 of generalized anxiety. So from that point forward-

   20. KRKevin Rose11:21

       Mm

   21. TFTim Ferriss11:21

       ... effectively no anxiety.

   22. KRKevin Rose11:23

       Wow.

   23. TFTim Ferriss11:23

       The rumination, the kind of anxious mental loops that I would g- get involved with late at night that would then in turn affect my sleep and cause onset insomnia, et cetera, that went to zero for-

   24. KRKevin Rose11:39

       Hmm

   25. TFTim Ferriss11:39

       ... a period of, say, three to four months, which blew my mind.

   26. KRKevin Rose11:43

       Just out of curiosity, were you tracking Oura data and whatnot so you could see kind of the impact of this as, as measured by different devices?

   27. TFTim Ferriss11:49

       I wasn't looking at Oura at that point in time. I have been tracking with Oura at least for the last three to four weeks, and so I'm gonna be taking a closer look at things like HRV and so on-

   28. KRKevin Rose12:01

       Mm-hmm

   29. TFTim Ferriss12:01

       ... in terms of trending. But the upshot of it is that, and I'll try to compress this a little bit, but that first time I did accelerated TMS, I had this incredible effect, much more durable in terms of its intensity of effect and relief than even any psychedelic therapy Or psychedelic-assisted therapy that I've, that I've looked into. And those were effectively ended up being the two modalities with the greatest effect size on the psychiatric conditions that I was most personally interested in-

   30. KRKevin Rose12:35

       Hmm
4. 19:49 – 23:15

   The tragic death of Nolan Williams and funding future research through the Saisei Foundation.

   1. KRKevin Rose19:49

      When you think of the, you know, potential n of 1 inability to replicate this again in others-

   2. TFTim Ferriss19:55

      Mm-hmm

   3. KRKevin Rose19:55

      ... I know you put a lot of cash personally into, you know, philanthropic things around research and studies.

   4. TFTim Ferriss20:00

      Mm-hmm.

   5. KRKevin Rose20:01

      Are you curious to push on these buttons and see, you know, can you put together a trial with-

   6. TFTim Ferriss20:06

      Oh, yeah

   7. KRKevin Rose20:06

      ... 50 people and-

   8. TFTim Ferriss20:07

      For sure

   9. KRKevin Rose20:07

      ... what's your thoughts there?

   10. TFTim Ferriss20:09

       I would definitely be interested in funding more research. The brain stimulation lab at Stanford, I've already funded some research within. Very sadly, Nolan Williams, who helped develop a lot of these technologies, died, I, I mean, I wanna say it was a month or two ago, by suicide, very sadly.

   11. KRKevin Rose20:30

       Oh, jeez.

   12. TFTim Ferriss20:31

       He was a friend, and really heartbreaking to see. And I mean, it's hard to put that aside for the moment, but putting it aside for the moment, I did fund research within that lab. I suspect that's gonna take time to implement, particularly given the leadership vacuum that was created by his very, very tragic death. But I am interested in, in funding more research. And this, this is an ongoing thing. As you know, my foundation, the Saisei Foundation, has funded all sorts of on-the-edge research since 2015 or so, I would say. So this is for sure where I would like to fund more research, particularly looking at these combinations, and that could be something like D-cycloserine plus stimulation. And at certain clinics, they have cohorts of, say, 60... I think it's, at the time that I did it, there were 60 patients who had been treated for some form of anxiety disorder with this combination. I think that at least at that particular clinic, on the depression side, the numbers are larger, probably 200 or so. But it's exciting. It's exciting. I mean, that's enough to get a signal, right?

   13. KRKevin Rose21:50

       Yeah.

   14. TFTim Ferriss21:50

       And sure, you need to check all the boxes and do the randomized placebo-controlled studies with, you know, multiple arms and all that, but it is enough to start to see a signal, especially when you have treatment-resistant cases that haven't responded to other things.

   15. KRKevin Rose22:09

       Mm.

   16. TFTim Ferriss22:10

       And that's enough to inform at least the design of a study that would take much longer. So, so we'll see.

   17. KRKevin Rose22:15

       Awesome.

   18. TFTim Ferriss22:16

       But I will say that much like some people experience with GLP-1 agonists like tirzepatide, Mounjaro, or Ozempic or whatever, after these treatments, and maybe it's just from really putting the brakes on a lot of the OCD-like circuitry, that I had much less desire to overconsume caffeine, to overconsume alcohol. It made dialing all of those things back a lot easier.

   19. KRKevin Rose22:47

       You know that's a massive benefit of GLP-1s for a lot of people.

   20. TFTim Ferriss22:51

       Yeah.

   21. KRKevin Rose22:52

       Which is huge.

   22. TFTim Ferriss22:53

       Yeah.

   23. KRKevin Rose22:53

       Well, dude, I'm, I'm pumped for you, man. It's like, I, I love to see you getting some relief here. That's, even if just for a few months, and it, that's fantastic it's repeatable.

   24. TFTim Ferriss23:01

       Yeah. So fingers crossed. We'll see. And for people who want to learn more, I, I would suggest they start with the, as eerie as it might be, my, my conversation on the podcast with Nolan Williams. All right, man. You're up.

   25. KRKevin Rose23:13

       All right.

   26. TFTim Ferriss23:14

       What's next?

5. 23:15 – 32:15

   Aphantasia vs. hyperphantasia, and Joshua Waitzkin's ability to "feel" chess.

   1. KRKevin Rose23:15

      Speaking of brain-related things, I was at a dinner with a friend, and I was kind of lamenting and, and talking about just my inability to remember faces, names, and then how that extended into childhood for me, which was doing poorly on tests and just I couldn't quite retain the information the way that my friends could. I just could never explain it. And somebody at dinner, my buddy Mal, said to me, "Do you have aphantasia?" And I said, "I have no idea what that is." And then he said, "Okay, I want you to close your eyes right now," and this is gonna blow some people's minds right now, I know [laughs] this... "Close your eyes and picture an apple in your mind's eye. You know, picture an apple."

   2. TFTim Ferriss24:03

      Mm-hmm.

   3. KRKevin Rose24:03

      "What do you see? Do you see a red apple? Do you see water droplets on it? Does it look fresh? Does it look like an HD image?" And that's what he said to me. I go, "What are you talking about?" And he goes, "Well, what does it look like to you?" And I go, "There's no apple."

   4. TFTim Ferriss24:18

      [laughs]

   5. KRKevin Rose24:19

      He goes, "What do you mean there's no apple?" And I said, "Well, there's kind of like an outline, kind of ghosty, foggy thing, maybe-ish." And he goes, "Oh, you have aphantasia." And I was like — immediately jumped to, like, you know, whatever, ChatGPT. And I had no idea that people suffer from this condition. It's in the low single-digit percentage of people, and they have no idea that this is a thing, where you cannot picture something in your mind's eye.

   6. TFTim Ferriss24:44

      Mm-hmm.

   7. KRKevin Rose24:44

      Had you heard of this before or no?

   8. TFTim Ferriss24:46

      No, I hadn't until you dropped it in one of our group kind of friend text threads. This was, I guess, a couple of weeks ago. But phantasia is spelled like the, the Disney movie, but... Actually, no, that would be with an F. It's aphantasia, A-P-H-A-N-T-A-S-I-A. Yeah, is the inability to voluntarily visualize mental images, first described in 1880.

   9. KRKevin Rose25:10

      When you close your eyes, what do you see? 'Cause they give you a scale there, and a five is, like, an HD, full-on beautiful apple. What do you see? Do you see perfect quality apple?

   10. TFTim Ferriss25:20

       Aphantasia can be considered the opposite of hyperphantasia. I am the exact opposite. I have hyper visual recall and the ability to-

   11. KRKevin Rose25:33

       Wow

   12. TFTim Ferriss25:33

       ... visualize. So I can probably draw the vast majority of restaurants or the floor plans that I've ever visited. I can absolutely spec it out and have very, very vivid visualization. So I would be on the far other end of the spectrum.

   13. KRKevin Rose25:52

       So when you think of a new idea, do you see it in some ways? 'Cause I feel it.

   14. TFTim Ferriss25:59

       Yeah. You are very similar to my friend Mike, because I remember Mike, Mike and I have a lot of shared flight time with psychedelic experiences, and he was describing how he has almost no visual imagery and it's v- purely, almost purely kinesthetic for him. And-

   15. KRKevin Rose26:17

       Mm-hmm

   16. TFTim Ferriss26:17

       ... that is as hard for me to imagine as it is for him to imagine my experience, which is-

   17. KRKevin Rose26:22

       Right

   18. TFTim Ferriss26:22

       ... overwhelmingly, explosively visual.

   19. KRKevin Rose26:27

       What's crazy, dude, is how many things I think, I thought were jokes. Like, when people said they counted sheep before they went to bed, I was like-

   20. TFTim Ferriss26:35

       [laughs]

   21. KRKevin Rose26:35

       ... "Oh, that's funny," like, "Yeah, but like, uh, what, do you count numbers in your head?" But I didn't know they see sheep.

   22. TFTim Ferriss26:41

       [laughs]

   23. KRKevin Rose26:42

       And if you're younger, mute the podcast for 10 seconds. I didn't know the Spank Bank was a real bank, like, like you could visit.

   24. TFTim Ferriss26:49

       [laughs]

   25. KRKevin Rose26:49

       I thought... I didn't even know that was a thing. Seriously, I didn't.

   26. TFTim Ferriss26:55

       Well, to be clear, it's not a bank with, like, tellers and safety security boxes.

   27. KRKevin Rose27:00

       No, but it is in your head. [laughs] It's in your head.

   28. TFTim Ferriss27:03

       Yeah.

   29. KRKevin Rose27:03

       You can open up the box and go back and, like, see that sh- I can't see any of that. [laughs] It sucks.

   30. TFTim Ferriss27:10

       [laughs]
6. 32:15 – 40:44

   DORAs for sleep and Alzheimer's prevention: Matt Walker, Belsomra, and the terrifying p-tau blood test.

   1. TFTim Ferriss32:15

      up. Well, I'll give another sort of medical one that I think is, is interesting.

   2. KRKevin Rose32:20

      Mm-hmm.

   3. TFTim Ferriss32:20

      And I've been texting and interacting with Matt Walker a lot on this. Matt is a scientist. He wrote a book, Why We Sleep, and is about as credible as you can be within the world of sleep science.

   4. KRKevin Rose32:35

      He's the best, and he's a great human. Fantastic human.

   5. TFTim Ferriss32:39

      He's a great guy. Great guy, has the most pleasing dulcet tones with that British accent and [laughs] kind lilt in the voice.

   6. KRKevin Rose32:49

      The plus 10 IQ accent, basically.

   7. TFTim Ferriss32:51

      Plus 10 or 20 IQ points with the accent. But his podcast is also excellent, and we can link to it in the show notes, but he did an episode on a class of sleep medication called DORAs.

   8. KRKevin Rose33:03

      Mm.

   9. TFTim Ferriss33:03

      And D-O-R-A stands for dual orexin receptor antagonists. And the reason that DORAs became very interesting to me is that I have Alzheimer's in my family, and it's, it's left, right, and center for me right now, because I have three relatives currently diagnosed with Alzheimer's.

   10. KRKevin Rose33:26

       Holy shit. And these are APOE4 negative folks?

   11. TFTim Ferriss33:30

       It includes APOE4 negative folks.

   12. KRKevin Rose33:33

       Mm-hmm.

   13. TFTim Ferriss33:33

       So we won't get too far into the genetics, but people who should not be, based on that, that particular parameter, should not be particularly inclined to Alzheimer's nonetheless have Alzheimer's. And then there are, of course, people who have 3/4. I don't think any of them are APOE3/3. I am APOE3/4.

   14. KRKevin Rose33:54

       Mm.

   15. TFTim Ferriss33:54

       So f- compared to a 3/3, that, at least as I understand it, would predispose me to, say, 2.5 times.

   16. KRKevin Rose34:00

       You and my wife and Rhonda Patrick, and Attia too actually is a 3/4.

   17. TFTim Ferriss34:05

       Yeah, there you go.

   18. KRKevin Rose34:06

       All of you guys. I'm the only one that's not. Crazy.

   19. TFTim Ferriss34:09

       In effect, to our current understanding, you want to mitigate the accumulation of two things, is... One is beta amyloid plaque, another is tangles that are created by tau proteins. And [sighs] sleep is really imperative for this.

   20. KRKevin Rose34:28

       Mm-hmm.

   21. TFTim Ferriss34:29

       And if you have sleep issues, as I have for decades, right, the onset insomnia, low percentage of deep sleep, et cetera, you're effectively unable to have your [laughs] your garbage service within the brain clear out these at a rate that offsets the accumulation.

   22. KRKevin Rose34:51

       And by the way, we don't know if these are causal, right? There's never been any conclusion whether these are causal. They're most likely the protective effects of something else gone awry. Do you agree with that?

   23. TFTim Ferriss35:00

       I would say that based on our best understanding, if you can mitigate the accumulation of these things, there seems to be a, at the very least, delaying of the, the progression of these diseases. And there are different drugs, infusions like donanemab and so on, that are kind of predicated on that understanding of, of the mechanism. This is still early days in the world of Alzheimer's-

   24. KRKevin Rose35:22

       Yeah

   25. TFTim Ferriss35:22

       ... but it seems very defensible with our understanding currently that the less of this stuff you accumulate, the better off you are.

   26. KRKevin Rose35:32

       Do you, uh, follow Dale Bredesen's work, by the way?

   27. TFTim Ferriss35:35

       I don't. Let's come back to that.

   28. KRKevin Rose35:36

       Okay.

   29. TFTim Ferriss35:36

       But let me just quickly tie this up and say that an example of a DORA would be Belsomra. There are a handful of others. But I have taken, as [laughs] I believe you have, you tre- well, actually, no, it was too strong for you.

   30. KRKevin Rose35:50

       I gave you some, dude.
7. 40:44 – 43:17

   Dale Bredesen's kitchen-sink approach to dementia and the ketogenic connection.

   1. KRKevin Rose40:44

      Tim, real quick, just to put a bow on this.

   2. TFTim Ferriss40:45

      Dale.

   3. KRKevin Rose40:46

      Dale, yes. So the reason I like Dale, Dale's a, a scientist that studies all forms of dementia, and he has a book called The End of Alzheimer's. You've probably heard of that book. It's, it's pretty popular.

   4. TFTim Ferriss40:55

      I've come across his name.

   5. KRKevin Rose40:56

      He's a little bit different than most of the scientists out there, where he believes that, you know, Alzheimer's and these other dementias are, they're, they're not just a kind of one-size-fits-all, one thing went wrong, but it can be a suite of different things that go wrong that lead you down this path.

   6. TFTim Ferriss41:09

      Sure.

   7. KRKevin Rose41:09

      And so it's metabolic disorder, it's potential toxins. It's like, you know, I think he's like the f- four major contributors to different various forms of dementia, and he's developed this protocol that can stabilize and even reverse a lot of this early cognitive decline if you catch it early enough. It's a little bit of like throwing the whole kitchen sink at it because it's everything, and he's not quite sure exactly what is doing the fix here, but it's fascinating the research that he's done. I highly recommend two things that stood out to me that he recommends is, one, getting this, this p-tau test done on the blood front, and then also recommends the ketogenic diet. He thinks-

   8. TFTim Ferriss41:46

      Mm

   9. KRKevin Rose41:46

      ... ketogenic diet is huge for people, and he's seen-

   10. TFTim Ferriss41:49

       Mm-hmm

   11. KRKevin Rose41:49

       ... that alone stabilize people from mental decline. And not that they're not eventually going to get it.

   12. TFTim Ferriss41:55

       Yeah.

   13. KRKevin Rose41:55

       But the, the point is like, do you want to go into full decline within five years, or do you want that to be 15 years, right? And so that's kind of what his, his lab's focused on.

   14. TFTim Ferriss42:04

       Cool. Yeah, I'll check him out. I mean, I've seen, [inhales] not that this is a necessarily sustainable or scalable approach, but with some of my relatives with Alzheimer's where it's pretty progressed and they tend to give, you know, one-word answers or get confused and give the wrong answer to questions, giving them, say, 35 milliliters of exogenous ketones so they're not in ketosis-

   15. KRKevin Rose42:32

       Mm-hmm

   16. TFTim Ferriss42:33

       ... they're following the terrible diet they've always followed, but give them 35 milliliters of kind of high-octane exogenous ketones before going for a walk, and within 30 minutes they're speaking in full sentences.

   17. KRKevin Rose42:47

       It's wild.

   18. TFTim Ferriss42:48

       You see some really wild temporary, but nonetheless very interesting transformations, which comes back to what you said about metabolic syndrome and there are good reasons why some folks refer to Alzheimer's as Type 3 diabetes.

   19. KRKevin Rose43:01

       100%. And that's what he says in his book. He's like, "That is definitely a contributor."

   20. TFTim Ferriss43:05

       Yep.

   21. KRKevin Rose43:05

       Excess glucose levels and all of the downstream inflammation effects that come from that It's, it's just bad, bad news bears, as you like to say.

   22. TFTim Ferriss43:12

       [laughs]

   23. KRKevin Rose43:12

       That's Tim Ferriss. [laughs]

   24. TFTim Ferriss43:14

       Bad news bears.

   25. KRKevin Rose43:15

       His, um-

   26. TFTim Ferriss43:15

       All right, Kevin, what you got?

8. 43:17 – 46:36

   The rapid pace of AI development: Why your opinion from three months ago is already obsolete.

   1. KRKevin Rose43:17

      You know, I'm a, day job's my t- uh, technologist, and we've talked about some of that stuff on the show before, so I kinda wanted to give people a quick little update on the state of the union around all things AI.

   2. TFTim Ferriss43:27

      Yeah, please. I could use it, too.

   3. KRKevin Rose43:29

      It's just such a fascinating time in that every, I'd call it four to eight weeks, maybe a slight bit longer, sometimes less so, we're seeing leapfrogs in what is possible. And one of the things that I would caution people against is forming an opinion about AI and then locking yourself in time around that opinion. Like, I'll give you a, a great kind of practical example. I have a lot of engineers that said, "Hey, I tried AI for coding. It was horrible." And it, my first question is, "When did you try it?" And they said, "Oh, three months ago." And I'm like, "No, no, you don't understand. It's three to four times better than it was three months ago," [laughs] right?

   4. TFTim Ferriss44:08

      Yeah.

   5. KRKevin Rose44:08

      And so we have to make sure that even if you are looking at some of these technologies and say, "Hey, it can't do X," or, "It's horrible, it's hallucinating in this way, it's giving me the wrong answer," this is, without a doubt, the massive Motorola block phone version of the iPhone. [laughs]

   6. TFTim Ferriss44:25

      [laughs]

   7. KRKevin Rose44:25

      Like, we are in that realm of AI. This is the very first innings of it all, and every few months, I mean, even Opus 4.5 came out three, four days ago, whatever. It's amazing.

   8. TFTim Ferriss44:37

      Explain what that is.

   9. KRKevin Rose44:38

      When you think about frontier models, meaning, like, you have the big, Anthropic, you've got Google, you've got OpenAI, and then I'd throw a couple others in there, Meta's kinda trying in some sense, and, you know, Perplexity and whatnot. But when you think about the big, massive models that are running that are at the bleeding edge of all this, meaning they're the best of the best-

   10. TFTim Ferriss44:58

       Mm-hmm

   11. KRKevin Rose44:58

       ... the most expensive per query. What happens is they have to train this, these data sets, and then they go in and they eventually release a model, right? And these are typically marked by software versioning numbers, like, you know, ChatGPT-3 versus ChatGPT-4 versus ChatGPT-5.

   12. TFTim Ferriss45:15

       Mm-hmm.

   13. KRKevin Rose45:15

       And then they'll do 5.1, 5.2, or, you know, 4.1, 4.2, whatever. So it's like software kind of versioning on these models.

   14. TFTim Ferriss45:21

       Mm-hmm.

   15. KRKevin Rose45:21

       And whenever you see a new release, you're talking a jump in terms of both sometimes the, the capacity to understand information, and they call that, like, the token context windows, and then also their just natural built-in abilities of the things that they can do well. And so some things they can do at a graduate level now, some things they can do, you know, novel ideas is still pretty low down the chain in terms of what they can do around original thinking. But they have all these benchmarks. So they, they have, you know, probably 15 or 20 different benchmarks that they run it against, like, can it complete the bar exam is one.

   16. TFTim Ferriss45:59

       Mm-hmm.

   17. KRKevin Rose46:00

       Right? And so now they're able to do it, and then now it's, the question is how quickly can they do it in, [laughs] right? Did it take them 25 minutes before? Now it's five minutes. So it, then there's a bunch of inference side of, of benchmarking as well. So we're seeing Gemini 3.0 came out just a couple weeks ago, and it was fantastic. And I will say that I called NVIDIA on here way back in the day, it was 1.8 trillion, I think, back in the day, when I said, "Hey, I think this is gonna run," when you and I were talking about it.

   18. TFTim Ferriss46:29

       Mm-hmm.

   19. KRKevin Rose46:29

       And it did, 'cause I knew GPUs were just gonna be the most precious commodity we have and as technologists.

9. 46:36 – 49:44

   Google's full-stack advantage: TPUs, Gemini 3, and why they were built for this moment.

   1. KRKevin Rose46:36

      I have seen that Google now is in the driver's seat here.

   2. TFTim Ferriss46:42

      Okay.

   3. KRKevin Rose46:42

      And I'm really excited for them because, one, you know, I worked at Google, they acquired one of my companies and I spent a few years there, and I've seen inside the belly of the beast, and I will tell you that they were built for this, this day and age. The fact that they have, they've been training their entire life for this moment. They have all of the PhDs and all of the folks that they need to go pull this off across the entire suite. And so what do I mean by the entire suite? And this is where it gets really interesting, Tim. Like, i- if you think about what OpenAI has to do to compete, they have to go and buy up as much data center space as possible, and they have to buy a shit ton of GPUs from NVIDIA.

   4. TFTim Ferriss47:22

      Mm-hmm.

   5. KRKevin Rose47:22

      That's what they need, because they don't own the stack. They own the software, the training, the engineering, the, the soft goods side of the business, but they don't own the hardware side.

   6. TFTim Ferriss47:31

      Mm-hmm.

   7. KRKevin Rose47:31

      This is a fantastic, really interesting stat. When Gemini 3.0 came out a couple weeks ago, it was the first time they had trained a frontier model, like, the best of the best, when it dropped it was the best model in the world, exclusively on Google chips.

   8. TFTim Ferriss47:48

      Hmm.

   9. KRKevin Rose47:48

      So they have these chips called TPUs, tensor processing units. They have the full stack, dude. They don't even need NVIDIA.

   10. TFTim Ferriss47:55

       [laughs]

   11. KRKevin Rose47:56

       It's wild. They didn't use an NVIDIA chip to train their AI.

   12. TFTim Ferriss48:01

       Yeah.

   13. KRKevin Rose48:01

       And they have world-class AI. So it's just really exciting. This is such a fun time to be alive, because right now you can take someone that is a technologist in the sense that they have a rough understanding of the available tech that's out there, and you could build and produce and ship any app that you want within a few days now with what we have, and it's just gonna get better and better.

   14. TFTim Ferriss48:25

       Hmm.

   15. KRKevin Rose48:25

       The creativity and the shipping unlockments that we're about to see over the next five years is gonna be unlike anything we've ever seen before. If you have the idea for an app or a product or a service, anything digital, you will be able to take it from ideation and drawing it out on a piece of paper to actual shipping something to your customers within, you know, call it less than a week, which has just never been done before, at a price that is, I don't know, $500?

   16. TFTim Ferriss48:54

       Yeah.

   17. KRKevin Rose48:54

       If Tim wanted his own app five years ago, I'd have been like, "Okay great, you want the Tim Ferriss fan site/ED Help app."

   18. TFTim Ferriss49:00

       [laughs]

   19. KRKevin Rose49:02

       To build that would be 50 grand, right?

   20. TFTim Ferriss49:06

       I feel like you have a problem you, with, that we need to talk about. You're just [laughs] bringing it up so much.

   21. KRKevin Rose49:10

       [laughs]

   22. TFTim Ferriss49:12

       After that half a glass of champers, I feel like-

   23. KRKevin Rose49:14

       It went straight to my head, number one, and number two-

   24. TFTim Ferriss49:16

       Turning into a mini confessional here

   25. KRKevin Rose49:18

       ... we need to just talk about your relationships, because one of the things that-

   26. TFTim Ferriss49:21

       Yes

   27. KRKevin Rose49:21

       ... whenever I get on w-

   28. TFTim Ferriss49:23

       Oh, boy. [laughs]

   29. KRKevin Rose49:23

       No, I'm telling you, whenever we do a Random Show, people are always like They send me a message and they're like, "I love how you give Tim shit, number one."

   30. TFTim Ferriss49:30

       [laughs]
10. 49:44 – 55:05

    The future of venture capital: Seed rounds shift later as entrepreneurs gain leverage.

    1. TFTim Ferriss49:44

       hold on.

    2. KRKevin Rose49:44

       [laughs]

    3. TFTim Ferriss49:44

       I want to ask you for a counterpoint on a previous... I wouldn't call it necessarily a prediction, but we talked about, I think it was in the last episode of the Random Show, a bit about venture capital, and I wouldn't say-

    4. KRKevin Rose50:01

       Yeah

    5. TFTim Ferriss50:01

       ... that you said across the board venture capital would be dead because there are capital intensive businesses that require-

    6. KRKevin Rose50:07

       Hardware

    7. TFTim Ferriss50:07

       ... hardware and build-outs and wet labs and all this stuff. But I'm wondering if I just put on my future vision goggles, which I wish I had, but let's just pretend I do, and I look forward, doesn't need to be five years, right? I look forward two years, and what you are describing is a reality, right? The barrier to entry, the hurdle is so low that suddenly from ideation to product takes a week.

    8. KRKevin Rose50:36

       Yes.

    9. TFTim Ferriss50:37

       And there is an absolute glut, this just overwhelming tsunami of products. So now on the, on the positive side, yes, what would've cost people millions and millions of dollars to do 10 years ago, let's, let's say 15 years ago, suddenly AWS and rentable infrastructure comes along, that cost goes down. Now AI comes along, cost further goes down.

    10. KRKevin Rose51:03

        Sure.

    11. TFTim Ferriss51:04

        But I imagine the war for attention is going to get so incredibly expensive. Do you think that products that get traction will nonetheless, if they don't have the income stream to support it, raise venture capital purely for a marketing war chest and customer acquisition? I'm just wondering if you think you could make the argument-

    12. KRKevin Rose51:28

        Yeah

    13. TFTim Ferriss51:29

        ... that the customer acquisition costs are gonna get, or user acquisition costs are going to get so high because everyone, you're gonna have 100X the number of bidders. Now, who knows what the forum will be. I don't know if it'll be Google AdWords, maybe it'll be something else. What are your thoughts?

    14. KRKevin Rose51:43

        Well, there's a couple things there. The best products I've ever invested in, period, full stop, have been ones that don't rely upon paid acquisition to grow.

    15. TFTim Ferriss51:51

        Yeah.

    16. KRKevin Rose51:51

        So they have come up with something that is unique and novel enough to where word of mouth is their number one driver. That said, capital w- and deployed the right way, you know, and spent the right way around ad purchases are, is just fuel for the fire, which is great.

    17. TFTim Ferriss52:06

        Yeah.

    18. KRKevin Rose52:06

        And so VC is dead in the sense that the seed round was like, okay, I have a kind of idea-ish. I'm gonna go out and take $3 million and I'm gonna give away 20% of my company. What happens in the future is not that you don't need that capital, 'cause I think you're right, you will need it for a variety of things. Like, if you're hitting insane scale, there will be moments where you need to put more warm bodies in seats to help you do all the things.

    19. TFTim Ferriss52:32

        Yeah.

    20. KRKevin Rose52:32

        And you may need to raise venture. But the difference is when you have product market fit, you go from raising and selling 20% of your business for $3 million to selling 20% of your business for $15 million, right?

    21. TFTim Ferriss52:44

        Yeah, yeah.

    22. KRKevin Rose52:45

        Which is just fantastic for the entrepreneur. So it's not that venture is dead, it's just that what we're gonna see is the entrepreneur is in control like they've never been before, right?

    23. TFTim Ferriss52:57

        Yeah.

    24. KRKevin Rose52:57

        Which is fantastic. And if they say, "Okay, I'm off to the races and things are going so well, but guess what? I'm actually charging for my product and I'm break even," you don't ever have to raise VC.

    25. TFTim Ferriss53:07

        Mm.

    26. KRKevin Rose53:07

        And then now you own 100% of the business and you're Jason Fried, which we know is one of the most brilliant entrepreneurs of our time that invented SaaS, that just has never taken any external investment, and you just, you know, you're just happy and, and you don't report to anyone, which is a beautiful thing as well.

    27. TFTim Ferriss53:23

        So do you think it's just, like, the killing fields for early stage folks and, and the value capture just gets pushed to later and later stage?

    28. KRKevin Rose53:32

        Pushed out.

    29. TFTim Ferriss53:32

        Right.

    30. KRKevin Rose53:33

        I think that's right, and largely on, on just tech that is, it's understandable by AI, meaning, you know, if you're running just TypeScript or any of these languages that AI can figure out and write q- high quality code for, you just don't need to raise capital. You can do it nights and weekends on your own.
11. 55:05 – 59:14

    Kevin's three AI investment buckets: Power, data centers, and bloated companies ripe for automation.

    1. TFTim Ferriss55:05

       Yeah, that's a good point. Interesting. Okay. So you wouldn't put any money into the big ones. So do you choose then, are you trying to find Amazon in 1998, 1999, right? Just in the absolute noise of [laughs] ... AI slop doesn't just apply to, you know, Sora videos. It also applies to startups, right? There's so much bullshit floating around. Some of it's dressed up in very fancy clothing with fancy names.

    2. KRKevin Rose55:34

       Yeah.

    3. TFTim Ferriss55:35

       But if you're investing in AI writ large- How do you even... I mean, this is your job, right? How do you think about it?

    4. KRKevin Rose55:43

       I think there's three buckets. One is power. Without a doubt, we're all gonna need power. There's small nuclear reactors are gonna be a thing. We, we need... The United States needs three to five X's power capacity in the next decade, if not more, and there is gonna be a huge push into energy. So there's a bunch of plays there. You can look them up. There are even ETFs that track bundles of nuclear related companies that are out there. That's one play. I think power is, is without a doubt the most important piece of this. And then, you know, data centers, there's publicly traded data center companies out there. There are the bigs like Microsoft and Google and Amazon that are just expanding as fast as they possibly can and buying up land all over the United States.

    5. TFTim Ferriss56:25

       Yeah.

    6. KRKevin Rose56:26

       There are always gonna be a premium on that. They're gonna need that. Nvidia, you know, they've got competition from AMD, they've got competition from Google now. Obviously, they, they have such incredible tooling on the software side that there's a lot of def- defensibility there. It's a name to own. Would I buy in today at today's prices? I don't know. But I will say that if you think of this less about I'm just gonna pick one horse and more like I'm gonna pick a basket of things, these are the things that I would be putting into that basket. And then lastly, I would take large companies that have insane bloat from headcount that can be automated in the next, call it two to three years, where they will reduce, sadly, and I hate to see this happen, but it's gonna happen no matter what, they're gonna reduce their headcount, they're gonna automate with AI, and their profit margins are gonna go through the roof.

    7. TFTim Ferriss57:11

       Mm-hmm.

    8. KRKevin Rose57:11

       And I think those companies will reap the benefits of efficiency that comes from AI and their stock prices will as well.

    9. TFTim Ferriss57:17

       How do you identify companies that have the most bloat with also the fewest hurdles to adopting AI for what you're describing, right? 'Cause in some of them, they may be, who knows, just put in a position where they, from a process or regulatory perspective or whatever, they just can't do it, at least in the near term.

    10. KRKevin Rose57:36

        Yeah, in the near term, it's listening to earnings calls, and it is... I wanna hear the CEO saying that they are absolutely forcing their engineers to use AI.

    11. TFTim Ferriss57:44

        Yeah.

    12. KRKevin Rose57:45

        Forcing. You have to be. It is not optional at this point to ask your engineers to play with it. You have to be using it every single day in your workflow, and the folks that are doing that, even though it's not perfect today, they're gonna reap all the benefits 12 to 18 months from now.

    13. TFTim Ferriss58:01

        Yeah.

    14. KRKevin Rose58:02

        And so that's what I'm looking for more than anything else is, is who is, is wise enough, because a lot of the CEOs are old, who is wise enough to say... Uh, you know, it's true. We know these folks.

    15. TFTim Ferriss58:13

        Yeah, yeah.

    16. KRKevin Rose58:13

        If you ask them the difference between, you know, Haiku 4 or 5 and, and Sonnet, they would have no idea how to tell you, uh, any of the... If they can't answer those basic model related questions, like, what are you doing?

    17. TFTim Ferriss58:25

        [laughs]

    18. KRKevin Rose58:26

        It's finding those people like the Jack Dorseys in the world and the folks that are just like... I hate... Well, I wouldn't wanna say young 'cause I don't wanna be ageism, but they have to be leaning into this in a way that is they have to believe that their entire business is gonna be rebuilt from the ground up over the next, you know, call it five years.

    19. TFTim Ferriss58:40

        Yeah.

    20. KRKevin Rose58:41

        And you have people like Salesforce CEOs doing that. You know, obviously Benioff's on, on board with this. There's a handful of folks that have said, you know, "We, we are making sure," this is like, this is a mandate from the top down. Google did this quite well where they, they had this like red alarm or, you know, thing that they called off probably three years ago where it said, "It is all hands on deck AI." And Apple did not do that, and now look what's happening. They're probably... There's most likely Apple's going to end up licensing Gemini from Google.

    21. TFTim Ferriss59:08

        Wild world out there, kids. Wild world.

    22. KRKevin Rose59:11

        It's a fun time to be alive, man. It's fun to be playing.

12. 59:14 – 1:14:53

    Holiday gift ideas and recommended reading.

    1. TFTim Ferriss59:14

       Totally. Let's see. I figure I could give people some maybe holiday gift ideas.

    2. KRKevin Rose59:20

       Oh, yes, I've got some great ones.

    3. TFTim Ferriss59:22

       First thing I can recommend, something you can fit in your pocket. So this right here looks like a golf ball with little, not quite spikes, but like studs on it. They're flattened. This is called a Rubz Ball, R-U-B-Z, and I travel with this. You just roll out your feet on this before you go to bed, and I have felt this help everything from relaxing and just winding down.

    4. KRKevin Rose59:46

       Hmm.

    5. TFTim Ferriss59:47

       What I have noticed, and this is something I spoke with Ed Coan about 100 years ago, long time ago. He's the greatest powerlifter of all time, a phenomenal athlete and very nice guy. But basically, if you address your feet, sometimes you feel it all the way up the kinetic chain, lower legs, knees, even your low back can sometimes release. So this, I think it's costs less than 10 bucks. This is a, a Rubz Ball. You can buy it on Amazon or anywhere else. That's a very easy one that's just pocket sized. We can go back and forth.

    6. KRKevin Rose1:00:20

       Yeah, let's do it.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:00:20

       What you got?

    8. KRKevin Rose1:00:21

       Okay. So this one is awesome, dude. You have my doc that I sent you, right, with the links to everything?

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:00:25

       Yeah, I do.

    10. KRKevin Rose1:00:26

        I don't know if you have it up in front of you. So if you click on the second one down, these Bonsai Nanoblocks. So I've been talking about Nanoblocks for a while.

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:00:33

        [laughs] Yeah, yeah.

    12. KRKevin Rose1:00:34

        Don't... Hear me out, dude. This is a fun stocking stuffer.

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:00:37

        Okay.

    14. KRKevin Rose1:00:37

        People are gonna love this shit. So it's $38. It's these little baby bonsai trees. Nanoblocks are like Legos, but they're like 1/10 of the size, so you need tweezers to assemble them.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:00:47

        [laughs]

    16. KRKevin Rose1:00:48

        It is oddly satisfying to build these little tiny like bonsai trees. You get all six of them for $38 and if you use the code Tim... No, I'm, there's no code. But if you [laughs]

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:00:59

        [laughs]

    18. KRKevin Rose1:01:00

        They're amazing. They're so fun. Anyway, Nanoblocks are awesome. This is a little fun little pack, great stocking stuffer. They're super tiny, and they're, they're cute, and they make... Look at the... There's Nanoblocks up there on my, up there behind me. See that beautiful tree?

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:01:14

        Oh, yeah. There it is. You recommended a book to me. Do you wanna mention it? It's last in your list. I bought the audiobook and I lis- and I listened to it on my flights recently. I thought the narrator was really, really good also.

    20. KRKevin Rose1:01:27

        It's called Stop Fixing Yourself, Wake Up, All Is Well. It's by Anthony de Mello, the Jesuit priest and therapist that we talked about earlier. We had both somehow discovered this, this book originally, not this book, but the other one we were talking about.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:01:39

        Awareness.

    22. KRKevin Rose1:01:39

        Awareness, and it was really cool to hear that you were into it because I, it was one of my favorite books that we- We did not compare notes when we read this independently. I don't know how the hell that happened.

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:01:48

        [laughs]

    24. KRKevin Rose1:01:48

        But we both loved it, and this is another one where I was just like, damn, this is so good because there's so many core truths here that apply to my practice on the meditation side, and I just loved it. But it, it does require a little bit of understanding. It's not like, uh, someone from off the street can totally read this and be like, "Oh, that makes a ton of sense to me." I don't know if you felt that way.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:02:11

        I feel like... Well, there are two things I would say, just having read a lot of Anthony de Mello, that I think Awareness, subtitle Conversations with the Masters, it used to be The Perils and Promise of Reality, but they changed the subtitle. I preferred the old one, but Awareness by Anthony de Mello, his last name is two words, D-E space M-E-L-L-O, is 184 pages, and I've gifted it to at least 50 people. I mean, I have an entire bookshelf full of this book in my guest bedroom at my house just to give friends.

    26. KRKevin Rose1:02:42

        Same, dude. That's so funny.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:02:43

        Yeah. [laughs] And I would recommend people read Awareness first. I don't think you need anything special in terms of background for that.

    28. KRKevin Rose1:02:52

        Well, you do need one thing. You need to know that it is a, a, a lecture. So it, it reads like a lecture, it isn't, it doesn't read like a book.

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:02:58

        Which I like. Which I like.

    30. KRKevin Rose1:02:59

        Yes.
13. 1:14:53 – 1:17:28

    The Way App and meditation with Zen master Henry Shukman https://thewayapp.com/tim

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:14:53

       I am talking my book a little bit here because I'm, uh, involved with the company, but the Way, the Way app, it's so easy, right? I mean, we're gonna be doing hopefully another retreat in person together.

    2. KRKevin Rose1:15:04

       Henry's the best, man.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:15:05

       It started out as just my hand down favorite meditation app. It's the easiest way to get back in the habit. I just used it yesterday morning and this morning. I tend to do 10-minute sessions and then sometimes do an extra 10 minutes of, like, TM or something after the fact, but I think you can get 30 sessions for free with no credit card required-

    4. KRKevin Rose1:15:24

       Yeah

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:15:24

       ... to try it out. And then if you wanna give an annual membership, that's 100 bucks, and you can just download the app for free and then tap My Way and share it with people that way with a gift button.

    6. KRKevin Rose1:15:36

       I'll definitely add onto that and what I'll, I'll say that I met Henry, the, the creator of the Way app, and he's, uh, one of the very few Zen masters that are fully accredited in the United States. It is such a treat to interact with and have Henry as a guide, and you get a pocket Zen master. And I don't wanna sell this, but I will say that in the last... You know, I started training with him in terms of meeting with him over Zoom during COVID, and now it's been a few years. There is no better money spent in terms of... Well, for me, it has been more of, like, retreats and things like that that I've be- been to of his, but meditation in terms of my just general anxiety and general just, like, way of moving through life, it, it's been a game changer.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:16:21

       Mm-hmm.

    8. KRKevin Rose1:16:21

       It's been a game changer, and Henry, I will give him a ton of credit there. One of the things that he told me early on which I thought was, it still sits, it hits me today is it's not about can I put in an hour a day of meditation.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:16:32

       Mm-hmm.

    10. KRKevin Rose1:16:33

        It's better to put in just 10 minutes a day or five minutes a day and do it consistently than it is to try and, you know, achieve the mountaintop and go all out. Like, can you just show up consistently? And I think if you do it for the first 30 days, you'll, you'll feel it. You'll feel it.

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:16:49

        Oh, you'll notice something much earlier in my experience, and Henry has this expression, I'm gonna paraphrase it, but basically if you do the practice, even if in some sessions you're like, "My mind is all over the place, I feel like that was a waste of time," like, if you walk consistently in the fog, you can't help but get wet is [laughs] one of his expressions, meaning, like, the, it compounds over time and even if you feel like individual sessions aren't doing much, it does actually compound. And if people wanna keep it simple, you can find a QR code at thewayapp.com/tim and that'll give you 30 free sessions with no credit card. People can check that out if

14. 1:17:28 – 1:18:41

    Kevin's walking treadmill

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:17:28

       they want. What else do we have, Kevin? I mean, you got a-

    2. KRKevin Rose1:17:30

       Yeah, I've got one more that's fun.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:17:32

       Mm-hmm.

    4. KRKevin Rose1:17:33

       It's on the slightly pricier side. It's a little over $200, close to $300. Actually, it's a walking treadmill. My wife Daria turned me onto this. It is a very thin, tiny little walking treadmill that has phenomenal reviews, and you just throw it underneath your desk, and for under $300 you can set the incline to, like, you know, 10, and it's all with a little tiny remote control. There's no, like... And there's nothing to hold onto 'cause you have your desk.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:18:01

       Mm-hmm.

    6. KRKevin Rose1:18:02

       And you can just work, and it rolls away 'cause it only weighs, like, 50 pounds, and you can just stash it in the corner, and I, I think it's the best walking treadmill. We did a bunch of research and it's the best one. Under $300, great way to get some exercise in there. Put on, throw on a weighted vest there and you're, you're in a really good place.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:18:19

       Oh, yeah, that'll be plenty. Yeah. Dig it. Yeah, I saw that when Daria was showing me her office. I was like, "Oh, look at that. There it is."

    8. KRKevin Rose1:18:27

       That's right. You got the tour. I wasn't even home and you came over and-

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:18:29

       Yeah

    10. KRKevin Rose1:18:30

        ... and stole my sleeping meds and [laughs]

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:18:32

        Stagged your Belsomra and-

    12. KRKevin Rose1:18:34

        Yeah, exactly

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:18:35

        ... took a spin on the walking treadmill and then took off. [laughs] Yeah, I still owe you a trade for that, but

15. 1:18:41 – 1:24:13

    AI stack: Nothing earbuds, Sandbar ring, Notion AI, and the NotebookLM podcast hack.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:18:41

       I do see in your notes, do you wanna take a second and run people through Kevin's current AI stack? This is all Greek to me. I don't even understand what half of this means.

    2. KRKevin Rose1:18:49

       Real quick, I don't know if you wanna touch on New Year's resolutions really fast, but that would be a fun one to, to end it with.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:18:54

       Yeah, let's do it after your AI stack.

    4. KRKevin Rose1:18:56

       Okay, so AI stack. One of the things that I've noticed has become quite, is becoming more and more kind of ubiquitous in this space is this idea of an AI assistant that is not your phone, but something that you can kind of call when you need to remember something, when you need to take notes, when you, you know... And Tim, I was wearing that, that little pendant when you and I got together.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:19:20

       Hate it. Hate it.

    6. KRKevin Rose1:19:21

       It's always recording.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:19:22

       Yeah.

    8. KRKevin Rose1:19:23

       And Tim, Tim goes to me, he's like, "Is that always recording?" I was like, "Yeah." And he goes, "Yeah, I, I, I hate to ask you this, but can you just take it off? It's too much anxiety for me." [laughs] So I had to take off that pendant and put it in my bag. And, but I agree with you in that it is weird. It does cripple our conversations and our honesty when you know there's something that's there listening all the time, right?

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:19:45

       Yeah, 100%.

    10. KRKevin Rose1:19:46

        And so a couple things. Nothing, the Android phone company, I'm not an investor or anything like that, they make headphones, which I'm wearing right now for this podcast, and, but one of the things that was really cool is just, like, when they released these headphones a month ago, they have a little talk button on the headphones. And so if you hold down talk as you're holding your headphones case, I can record anything and it goes into their AI and it creates to-do lists for me-

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:20:11

        Oh, that's cool

    12. KRKevin Rose1:20:12

        ... notes, whatever it may be. It's just fun.

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:20:14

        That's a cool feature

    14. KRKevin Rose1:20:15

        There's a company called Sandbar, and we invested. True, it wasn't my deal.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:20:18

        Quick question. Do you need to have an Android phone to use those?

    16. KRKevin Rose1:20:22

        Yes, you need to have a Nothing Phone.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:20:24

        Okay.

    18. KRKevin Rose1:20:24

        And so that's the problem.

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:20:25

        Bummer.

    20. KRKevin Rose1:20:26

        But the idea is sound in that it's not always on, it's just when you need it, right?

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:20:30

        Yep.

    22. KRKevin Rose1:20:30

        And one of the things that Sandbar did, and I have one of their prototype rings around here somewhere, but one of the things that Sandbar did is they created a ring, almost like an aura ring-

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:20:39

        Mm-hmm

    24. KRKevin Rose1:20:39

        ... where if you just lightly touch it, you can whisper to any notes that you might want, and it saves it in the AI cloud on your phone, Android OS, whatever. And if you have headphones in, it'll respond back to you.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:20:50

        Huh.

    26. KRKevin Rose1:20:50

        So you'd be like, "Hey, remind me what's that meeting I have tomorrow?" And just like quietly, it doesn't listen to the entire room, and then it gives you that data back in your headphones.

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:20:58

        Mm-hmm.

    28. KRKevin Rose1:20:58

        Anyway, Sandbar's not out yet. It's coming out middle of next year. Highly recommend sandbar.com, checking it out. Like I said, it is something that we invested in at the fund level, but it's not my deal. But I will say I like where this is going. Even if it's not Sandbar, something like this-

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:21:12

        Mm-hmm

    30. KRKevin Rose1:21:13

        ... that is a little companion that is not your big-ass phone-
16. 1:24:13 – 1:29:30

    Oboe.fyi: The AI learning platform and my investment philosophy.

    1. KRKevin Rose1:24:13

       the go.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:24:13

       I have to give a plug, and I am an investor in this company, because it came up in, uh, [chuckles] in a group thread. I don't think he would mind me mentioning this, but our mutual friend Chris Sacca was like, "My daughter just taught herself about stock trading and this, this, and this," and he took a screenshot, and he's like, "She created her own curriculum," and da, da, da, da, da, and it was from a startup called Oboe. And if people go to Oboe, that's O-B-O-E.F-Y-I, so Oboe.fyi, it just says, "What do you want to learn about? We'll make you a course." And you literally just type it out, and it gives you everything in one place.

    3. KRKevin Rose1:24:53

       Are you an investor in this?

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:24:54

       Yeah, I'm an investor.

    5. KRKevin Rose1:24:55

       'Cause I noticed you had, you'd mentioned before, what was it, and this will be kind of fun for 30 seconds, when you were pitched this, 'cause you are very... You say no to a lot of things, which is great-

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:25:04

       Yep

    7. KRKevin Rose1:25:05

       ... as, as every investor should. What was it about this that really, like, hooked you in?

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:25:10

       I mean, there were a few things, right? So it was the people involved. I had some familiarity with the people involved, and I had confidence in their ability to execute. And also, this is what I do, right? In the sense that if I have tried to hone any single skill, it is deconstructing and simplifying complex subjects, then putting material in some type of logical sequence, doing 80/20 analysis on kind of the 20% of material that makes the difference, and, like, the material beats method a lot of the time, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Right? So I've thought a lot about this, and I was like, "All right, the thesis and the mission of the company makes a lot of sense to me." Now, will they be the winner? I have no idea. That is a much harder question, and that, that informs kind of bet sizing and things along those lines. But I have a lot of confidence in the founders. The company itself was introduced to me, or the founding team behind it, by another founder who's had exits, who is an investor, who's a friend of mine, and I thought to myself, "Well Even if this just goes towards creating a product that I myself will use, which is really where I start with a lot of my investing, and sometimes I succeed when I stray from that, but my hit rate is a lot higher when, say, in the case of Uber or Shopify or any of these other... Duolingo

    9. KRKevin Rose1:26:38

       It's a core competency of yours.

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:26:39

        I know at least I am a market of one-

    11. KRKevin Rose1:26:42

        Right

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:26:42

        ... for all of these products, and Oboe would fall in that category. So that's, that's how I decided to invest. And, you know, with these companies, it's also not a bet the farm scenario, at least not for me, right? It's you're creating a portfolio with the recognition that 70, 80% of your investments are gonna go to zero. But I try to look at the, or answer the question: how can I win even if this goes to zero? And how can I win? It's like, well, if I help to, in some way, support a product and the development of a product that I use myself to learn a bunch of stuff quickly, then given the leverage that I think I can create or find in the world, it's like, wow. Well, if, if I have a smooth way, an elegant way to learn more about a few different... I'll give you an example, right? If I'm considering, and I've already done this, like, if I'm doing due diligence on a company that I c- I can't talk about right now, but it's innovating in biotech, and I want to learn as much as possible about different types of mRNA therapeutics.

    13. KRKevin Rose1:27:49

        Mm-hmm.

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:27:50

        It's like, well, I'm not coming from a background that enables me to do that. So if I then am, am able to do due diligence, like, 100 times faster because I'm not sending out 15 emails to people I think might be able to assist, and I, might still do that level of due diligence, but let's just say that 50K investment allows me to then do due diligence in a way that allows me to place two or three other bets more effectively. It's like I've made my money back-

    15. KRKevin Rose1:28:16

        Mm-hmm

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:28:17

        ... or very likely made my money back. So whether it's with investing or choosing projects like, you know, the card game Coyote or anything else, my fundamental underlying question is, can this be a win even if it fails?

    17. KRKevin Rose1:28:29

        Right.

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:28:30

        With, let's just say, the primary external metric of sales or exit or whatever it might be. And if I'm developing skills and relationships that snowball and transcend any single project, then that's a vote in favor of doing something. Oboe.fyi would kind of fit into that bucket for me. And it made me so happy to see, you know, Saka's daughter when it was like, whatever, you know, 12 or 13, like, creating her own course. I was like, "Okay, that's a good sign. That makes me happy."

    19. KRKevin Rose1:29:01

        I just clicked on one of the things to create a course for me and it was... It's pretty cool because right away it said, "Do you want this in podcast format, which is seven minutes, or do you want this in lectured recording, which is 20 minutes?"

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:29:12

        Mm-hmm.

    21. KRKevin Rose1:29:12

        That's awesome. Like, that's built into the product from, like, step one.

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:29:15

        Yeah, from step one. And like you said, this is the blocky brick Motorola version.

    23. KRKevin Rose1:29:22

        Yeah.

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:29:22

        The rate of iteration for something like this is gonna be so extreme. It's gonna be head-spinning.

    25. KRKevin Rose1:29:27

        Awesome.

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:29:28

        So we'll see. I'm excited about it.

17. 1:29:30 – 1:37:47

    My new girlfriend, the perils of modern dating apps, and building a communication toolkit.

    1. KRKevin Rose1:29:30

       All right. The moment you've all been waiting for, Tim's girlfriend.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:29:33

       [laughs]

    3. KRKevin Rose1:29:34

       Come on, dude.

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:29:35

       Thought I got, thought I got out of it.

    5. KRKevin Rose1:29:36

       No, no, no, no, no, no. People are gonna... They wanna know the, what's, what's up with Tim's personal life.

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:29:41

       I, I'm not gonna dox anyone who doesn't opt into being doxxed. I'll skip any identifying particulars, but you know, it's getting serious quickly. She's incredibly sweet, incredibly self-aware.

    7. KRKevin Rose1:29:54

       Wow.

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:29:55

       For people who are wondering, of all places, met on Hinge. [laughs] Have to kiss a lot of frogs or go on a lot of dates. It's a lot of reps, a lot of swiping, and a lot of noise to get to that point, but it did work.

    9. KRKevin Rose1:30:10

       What was the first date like?

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:30:11

        First date was Greek food, very chill, felt very much, and I, and I pay a lot of attention to this, like, you know that I have a very sensitive nervous system, and I just immediately felt kind of down-regulated and at ease with her.

    11. KRKevin Rose1:30:30

        Mm.

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:30:31

        And that's a lot. That's not a small thing for me. And keeps me on my toes, is very funny, is very good at calling me on my bullshit. [laughs] I'm optimistic. We'll see. But super, super, super happy. And so doing Thanksgiving together.

    13. KRKevin Rose1:30:51

        Oh, wow.

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:30:52

        Yeah.

    15. KRKevin Rose1:30:53

        Like family introduction t- time and all that shit?

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:30:55

        Oh, she, she met my family already quite a while ago, so.

    17. KRKevin Rose1:30:58

        I've only met her once. One final question then I'll let you off the, the hot box.

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:31:02

        [laughs]

    19. KRKevin Rose1:31:02

        What is the hardest thing for you at this stage? Because it's like you get to this point where there's this honeymoon phase and then all of a sudden the, it start s- to kind of peel off and it's in the nitty-gritty of life.

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:31:15

        Yeah.

    21. KRKevin Rose1:31:16

        What's the hardest, most challenging part about this next kind of, I call it six months?

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:31:22

        I mean, I, I don't know if I have the ability to predict, but my guess would be... I mean, I think this is a, what I'm about to describe as a plight of modern dating in general, at least as I've seen it among my friends and pretty much anyone I, who I've ever spoken to about this or if I ever mention kind of modern datings and the app-based dating world. It's such a game of roulette. I mean, the apps are designed to be as addictive as possible. I think the challenge for almost anyone who has been part of that playing field is when things get hard, right, when things are hard, when you have friction that lasts more than a day or a week, to stay the course and do the work necessary to resolve that as opposed to just being like, "Ah, fuck this."

    23. KRKevin Rose1:32:15

        Right.

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:32:15

        "I'm just gonna go back to the well."

    25. KRKevin Rose1:32:16

        'Cause the well's right there.

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:32:19

        Yeah.

    27. KRKevin Rose1:32:19

        It's, it's 20 seconds away and a swipe away, right?

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:32:22

        Yeah.

    29. KRKevin Rose1:32:22

        That's, that's the downfall of these whole things is It's, it's so easy to move on to the next thing

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:32:28

        They are all designed to be, of course, as addictive as possible, and even though they might say they're designed to be deleted, that by, [laughs] by definition, since they have a fiduciary responsibility, a legal fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders, their business model is entirely dependent on recurring revenue. So they're designed to keep you using the app as long as humanly possible. And I don't blame them for that. That's just the way that this ecosystem works. But it is something to be aware of because they're seductive and they're designed to be seductive, these apps, in every way conceivable.
18. 1:37:47 – 1:42:45

    Terry Real's relationship wisdom: Why objective reality has no place in an argument.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:37:47

       I mean, Terry, as any couples therapist will, has certain frameworks and formulas, right? But there are also underlying philosophical principles that I think apply to a million different things that are outside of formulas. I'll give you an example. So one thing that Terry says, and I think this is in Fierce Intimacy, which is an audiobook, you can't find a print version of it. I highly recommend it to folks. The point he makes is, it's real simple, objective reality has no place in a relationship. Now what the hell does that mean? What that means is, you know, if you're out at dinner and then Yeah, the waiter comes over and the, the wife orders and then the waiter walks away and the husband's like, "You know, honey, you don't need to yell at him." And she's like, "I wasn't yelling." [laughs] And then it turns into, like, a whole bullshit argument about whether she was yelling or not. Like, the... If, if the husband were to say, "Well, honey, actually, I hired a professional audiologist with the latest cutting-edge technology and recording equipment and they're sitting right at the table next to us, and if, if we accept the commonly defined threshold for yelling at [laughs] X, Y, Z decibels-

    2. KRKevin Rose1:39:03

       Mm-hmm

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:39:04

       ... if you look at these numbers, you can see that in fact you were, by scientific definition, yelling." Like, is that gonna fix the problem? No, it's gonna be a huge fucking mess, right? [laughs]

    4. KRKevin Rose1:39:12

       Right.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:39:12

       And so his point is the stories matter, right? And, like, the subjective matters and very shorthand for that is, like, objective, like... And he, he may not word it exactly this way, but, like, objective reality just doesn't have a place in, let's just say, an argument. So... And we're gonna make mistakes, right? Occasionally, [laughs] especially someone like me, is going to try to appeal to some objective measure of God knows what. But if you can just postpone that judgment even for a minute or two, it makes a world of difference, right?

    6. KRKevin Rose1:39:55

       Yeah.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:39:55

       And maybe it makes me sound like I'm really remedial in the EQ communication department. I actually don't think that's true. I think I'm, I'm pretty good. But it, it's like going to the gym. It's like playing pool or shooting archery or whatever. It's like you can't just... It's not a one and done thing.

    8. KRKevin Rose1:40:12

       Yeah.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:40:13

       Right? Like, if you don't practice these things, you will revert to whatever your parents did, period.

    10. KRKevin Rose1:40:19

        It's so true.

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:40:20

        And I don't wanna model that. You know, that did... That was a goddamn mess. [laughs]

    12. KRKevin Rose1:40:24

        Yeah. I've found that if my partner gets upset, just, just kind of like sitting down and saying, "Calm down-"

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:40:32

        [laughs]

    14. KRKevin Rose1:40:34

        "... is huge."

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:40:35

        That works.

    16. KRKevin Rose1:40:35

        It just works every time.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:40:36

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    18. KRKevin Rose1:40:37

        Or, "You're being like your mother."

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:40:39

        [laughs]

    20. KRKevin Rose1:40:39

        Like, those are things that, like, are just really, you know, just home runs.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:40:44

        Why are you so hysterical like your mother?

    22. KRKevin Rose1:40:47

        Yeah. [laughs]

    23. TFTim Ferriss1:40:48

        Works like a charm. I think that's Terry Real's second principle.

    24. KRKevin Rose1:40:51

        Just say, "Calm down," and then you're good.

    25. TFTim Ferriss1:40:53

        [laughs]

    26. KRKevin Rose1:40:53

        You're good. They'll be like, "Oh, I was being so crazy. I... You're right, I should just calm down." [laughs]

    27. TFTim Ferriss1:41:00

        [laughs] Yeah. And I think also, uh, just expecting there to be bumps, right? It's like there are always gonna be bumps and, you know, we'll see. We'll see.

    28. KRKevin Rose1:41:11

        Awesome.

    29. TFTim Ferriss1:41:12

        But it's been great so far. I feel super, super lucky, really, really fortunate.

    30. KRKevin Rose1:41:16

        Yeah. I mean, you only date supermodels, so you should feel lucky.
19. 1:42:45 – 1:45:21

    Be on the lookout for Kevin's new tech podcast.

    1. KRKevin Rose1:42:45

       Yeah, I would say the only thing on my side, just to bring people up to speed on, is I, I have a new tech podcast that I'm very excited about that I'm gonna launch in the new year, and so kevinrose.com for my 4-Bullet Friday-

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:42:58

       [laughs]

    3. KRKevin Rose1:42:59

       ... which is a much faster read. I only put out, what, like one email every month and a half or every... But it's always packed with, like, the latest AI stuff I'm playing with, all that stuff. Anyway, that's my only plug of the show is kevinrose.com for the newsletter.

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:43:12

       Check it out, folks, and we'll hit New Year's resolutions and stuff next time we do a Random Show.

    5. KRKevin Rose1:43:17

       Let's do it. Yeah.

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:43:19

       We'll do that, 'cause I need to, I need to dust mine off and blow the, blow the film that has settled on those, look at them in higher resolution, so I could use a little extra time.

    7. KRKevin Rose1:43:29

       Love it.

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:43:30

       And we'll get after it.

    9. KRKevin Rose1:43:31

       Love you, brother. Always good to see you.

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:43:33

        Yeah, love you too, bud.

    11. KRKevin Rose1:43:34

        Thanks for sharing more of the, the personal side with us. I... Everybody gets a kick out of that, and it's always fun to hear your adventures.

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:43:40

        [laughs]

    13. KRKevin Rose1:43:41

        But I'm excited for you marching forward, and then I have good vibes about this one.

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:43:45

        Yeah. Thanks, man. It's a fucking jungle out there. [laughs] It's like-

    15. KRKevin Rose1:43:48

        Yeah

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:43:48

        ... the modern dating is a, it is simultaneously so fun if you, like, hit your groove [laughs] in a playing the field kind of way, but it's also so incredibly exhausting and frustrating and can be very demoralizing.

    17. KRKevin Rose1:44:07

        Yeah, I don't feel bad for you, honestly. Like, I've, I've gotten some of your texts.

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:44:10

        [laughs]

    19. KRKevin Rose1:44:10

        I think you're ha- you had a damn good run, brother. You had a good run. [laughs]

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:44:14

        I'm not complaining. I'm just saying I feel most sort of at home, at ease, at peace when I am with my current girlfriend, and it's just, it's qualitatively a world of difference from just running around like You know, some horny bastard with his hair on fire, so [laughs] not that there's anything wrong with that.

    21. KRKevin Rose1:44:38

        Yeah, not that there's any hair left, but yeah.

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:44:40

        [laughs] Not there's any hair left. And also just be aware, like, whether you're on X or Instagram, but especially on the dating apps because it is selling sex and things that are hardwired to hijack your attention, like, your faculties are being exploited to the maximum degree possible.

    23. KRKevin Rose1:45:03

        Yeah.

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:45:03

        And it's, uh, it's just something to be aware of. I mean, like, really, really check your state before and after using these things to determine how much you might want to use them or if you want to put safeguards around how long you spend on these things. All right. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

    25. KRKevin Rose1:45:20

        Love it.

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:45:20

        Cool, brother.

20. 1:45:21 – 1:46:14

    Dog updates: Molly, a new puppy, and Toaster on rapamycin.

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:45:21

       Well, love you very much. Please give a hug to Daria and the girls for me.

    2. KRKevin Rose1:45:26

       Will do. Same on, on my side. How's Molly doing? Molly's good?

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:45:30

       Molly's great. Yeah, Molly's doing great.

    4. KRKevin Rose1:45:32

       How old is Molly now?

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:45:33

       Molly's 10. I'm actually gonna adopt a puppy.

    6. KRKevin Rose1:45:36

       Aw.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:45:36

       Gonna get a second dog next month. Super excited.

    8. KRKevin Rose1:45:39

       Toaster is 15 now. You saw him when you came to the house. I wasn't there when you were there.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:45:44

       I did. Oh.

    10. KRKevin Rose1:45:46

        Isn't he moving slower? It's hard to s- to watch.

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:45:49

        He was. Well, he was also, had just come from the vet and his paw was all taped up and he was-

    12. KRKevin Rose1:45:54

        Oh, geez

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:45:54

        ... drugged out of his mind-

    14. KRKevin Rose1:45:55

        I know

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:45:56

        ... when I saw him. Yeah, 15. He's getting up there.

    16. KRKevin Rose1:45:58

        I know. You, we gave him Rapa, so I'm hoping for... I mean, we've already seen the kind of 20% boost in lifespan, so we'll see.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:46:05

        Yeah. I need to get Molly on, on Rapa. That's gonna be one of my tasks for December as well, so one step at a time.

    18. KRKevin Rose1:46:13

        Awesome.

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:46:13

        All right, brother.

21. 1:46:14 – 1:46:34

    Parting thoughts and happy holidays.

    1. KRKevin Rose1:46:14

       All right, brother.

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:46:14

       Great to see you, bud.

    3. KRKevin Rose1:46:15

       Good to see you.

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:46:16

       And everybody listening, you can go to the show notes. We'll have links to everything at tim.blog/podcast. Random Show, just look for the newest one and we'll have it for you. So happy holidays everybody. Thanks for tuning in.

    5. KRKevin Rose1:46:30

       Happy holidays.

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:46:32

       I'll see you soon, Kevin. Take care, bud.

    7. KRKevin Rose1:46:34

       Peace.

Episode duration: 1:46:45