The Tao of Seneca: Letters from a Stoic Master | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)

1. 0:00 – 2:11

   Cold open banter, then sponsor messages (Athletic Greens, 99designs)

   1. TFTim Ferriss0:00

      Optimal mental At this altitude, I can run flat-out for a half-mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question?

   2. JRJohn A. Robinson0:08

      Now would seem an appropriate time.

   3. TFTim Ferriss0:10

      What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton. The Tim Ferriss Show. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time, "If you could only use one supplement, what would it be?" And my answer is inevitably Athletic Greens. It is your all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body, did not get paid for that, and I travel with it to avoid getting sick. I take it in the mornings to ensure optimal performance. It just covers all my bases if I can't get what I need through whole food meals throughout the rest of the day. And you can get 50, oh my God, 50% off. Yes, 50% off if you go to athleticgreens.com/tim. That's athleticgreens.com/tim. Check it out. It's tasty, but more important, it will help you not screw up when you're doing your nutritional planning. So for me, just covers the bases, takes a load off my mind, puts a lot in my body, and, uh, check it out, athleticgreens.com/tim. This episode is brought to you by 99designs. 99designs is a great partner for creating and growing your business. It's a one-stop shop for all of your graphic design needs, whether that's a logo, website, business card, or anything else. I used 99designs to get book cover prototypes for The 4-Hour Body, which went on to become a number one New York Times bestseller. And I also use them for banner ads, illustrations, and other things. With 99designs, designers around the world compete to create the best design for you. You give feedback and then pick your favorite. You end up happy or you get your money back. It's very simple. You can check out a few of my own designs and those of yours, meaning Tim Ferriss Show listeners, at 99designs.com/tim. And right now, my listeners, you guys, will get a free $99 upgrade on your first design. That's 99designs.com/tim. Check it out. Hello, boys and girls. This is

2. 2:11 – 2:41

   Tim’s announcements: global availability of The Tim Ferriss Experiment

   1. TFTim Ferriss2:11

      Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. I am so excited for this episode. You have no idea, but I'll try to give you an idea. It's full of announcements, full of cool projects that I've been working on for a very long time. Announcement number one, The Tim Ferriss Experiment, which was an entire season of television, 13 episodes that was exec produced, hosted by yours truly alongside the Emmy Award-winning team behind No Reservations, Mind of a Chef, et cetera, is now available in not

3. 2:41 – 4:43

   Introducing ‘The Tao of Seneca’: why Tim made an audio edition

   1. TFTim Ferriss2:41

      only the US, but also pretty much every country in the world. There are a couple of exceptions, but check it out. There are all sorts of shenanigans, adventures, injuries, cataclysms, et cetera. Fourhourworkweek.com/tv. So just go to fourhourworkweek.com/tv, all spelled out, and you can check that out. You can also see a trailer that shows you highlights of all 13 episodes. Next, we have The Tao of Seneca. What is The Tao of Seneca? Well, there's a collection of letters called the Moral Letters to Lucilius, and I have read this entire collection of letters and other letters of Seneca, the author, probably more than 100 times. It has been my constant companion for the last 10 to 20 years, and I have given various forms of these letters to more friends than I can count and several hundred acquaintances. I feel that strongly about it. So when people ask me what my favorite book is of all time, I say this collection of letters. The problem has been there is no good audio edition. That was the objective. So I, for many months now, in collaboration with a fan, actually, a listener and a reader, John Robinson, have been collaborating to put together The Tao of Seneca, subtitle Practical Letters from a Stoic Master, three volumes, and it covers them all. Here's the description. "The Tao of Seneca is an introduction to Stoic philosophy through the words of Seneca. Thought leaders in Silicon Valley tout the benefits of Stoicism," and I'm not just referring to me there. Not referring to me at all, actually, many others. "And NFL management, coaches, and players alike have embraced it because the principles make them better competitors. Stoicism is a no-nonsense philosophical system designed to produce dramatic real-world effects. Think of it as an ideal operating system for thriving in high-stress environments. This is your guide." And you can find this

4. 4:43 – 6:14

   How to listen: episode contents, letter selection, and navigating the volumes

   1. TFTim Ferriss4:43

      on Audible, audible.com/timsbooks. That'll take you to my book club where I acquire audio rights and produce books that have had a huge impact on my life. This is at the top of the list. Tao of Seneca, number one most impactful collection of writing on my life, period. So please check it out, audible.com/timsbooks. And there's a sample in this episode. That is what this episode consists of. Letter 13 specifically, On Groundless Fears. It is a 12-minute letter. I think you'll enjoy it greatly. Give it a few minutes. Get warmed up. Seneca sometimes has a bit of a preamble at the beginning of his letters. And I'll also give you the preface to the book that I put together, which will give you a lot more context. But on this letter specifically, On Groundless Fears, give it a couple of minutes. And also, for the women listening, this is 2,000 years old, and Seneca makes comments like, "Manliness gains much strength from..." Right? You can just substitute humans, and it is as applicable to women as it is to men, certainly. And at the end of the preface, I list off some of my favorite letters so you can jump around and pick and choose. I, I encourage you to treat The Tao of Seneca as a buffet of letters you can choose from and revisit often. And if you do decide to get the volume one, for instance, volume two, volume three, I do have a very long version, an essay version of On the Shortness of Life to start off with. That is a long one. That

5. 6:14 – 7:15

   Preface: Tim’s background and why Stoicism (especially Seneca) mattered to him

   1. TFTim Ferriss6:14

      is about an hour, hour and a half. You can skip over that if it's too long. That is where I'll leave things. I'm so excited to bring this to you and so excited for you if you haven't heard Seneca before. You will hear the preface, you can skip through that if you want, which I read, and then Letter 13, On Groundless Fears. Check it out, The Tao of Seneca, audible.com/timsbooks. Enjoy. This is Tim Ferriss speaking, the producer of this audiobook. I am an author, perhaps best known for books with titles that sound like infomercial products, The 4-Hour Workweek and The 4-Hour Body, which are published in about 45 languages or so, and I am a tech investor, and I've been involved early stage in companies like Facebook, Twitter, Uber, Alibaba, and perhaps 30 others. I only bring up this background because I credit my successes, whatever they might be, in many fields, including those, tango, et cetera, to Stoicism and to

6. 7:15 – 8:47

   Preface: Stoicism as practical philosophy vs. useless theorizing

   1. TFTim Ferriss7:15

      reading the writing of specifically Seneca, and that is why I have put so much time into assembling and compiling this book and, with the help of John, bringing it to you. That is the narrator, John Robinson. Few of us consider ourselves philosophers, of course, and this is usually for very good reasons. Most of us can recall at least one very irritating pseudo-intellectual, probably in college, who dedicated countless hours to some type of philosophical tail-chasing, and so we associate philosophy with this type of behavior. For what? Well, maybe this person was debating what is is, but somehow posturing as a superior intellect at mealtime or over drinks. It's very irritating, it's very useless, and not unlike the bar scene in Good Will Hunting, perhaps. But it is for academics, and I think it is for theory. These are beliefs that many of us have about philosophy. It's something that you do over wine for fun, but it doesn't apply to real life. Fortunately, there are a few no-nonsense philosophical systems that can produce dramatic real-world effects and results. These were forged and refined in action, sometimes war. Stoicism is, to me, perhaps one of the best examples of that, and that's what we'll focus on. Think of it as an ideal operating system for thriving in high-stress environments, and that is certainly why it's gained a huge foothold in Silicon Valley, as one example, and professional sports. So

7. 8:47 – 11:18

   Preface: examples of Stoicism’s reach, plus Tim’s fasting and ‘fear inoculation’ practice

   1. TFTim Ferriss8:47

      if you study Stoicism, you'll be in very good company. It's a rulebook for making better decisions. It was popular with the educated elite of the Greco-Roman Empire, but Thomas Jefferson also had Seneca on his bedside table. Montaigne had a quote from Epictetus carved into the ceiling of his house where he would see it constantly. Bill Clinton reads Meditations by Marcus Aurelius every year. In the NFL, and this has become big news with an article in Sports Illustrated, management, coaches, and players alike, including teams like the Patriots and Seahawks, have embraced Stoicism because it makes them better competitors. Other proponents include John Stuart Mill and Tom Wolfe. As I record this, you might hear that my voice is a little hoarse. I just finished a 10-day water-only fast, and I don't necessarily recommend doing that, but it's part of a practice that comes directly from the writing of Seneca, specifically Letter 18, which you'll hear, On Festivals and Fasting, and here is an excerpt to give you a flavor. Set aside a certain number of days during which you shall be content with the scantiest and cheapest of fare, with coarse and rough dress, saying to yourself all the while, is this the condition I so feared? It is precisely in times of immunity from care that the soul should toughen itself beforehand for occasions of greater stress, and it is while fortune is kind that it should fortify itself against her violence, and it goes on and on. But that particular passage, and there's, there's a lot more context to it, led me to the practice of taking a few days per month to eat the cheapest of food, so for instance, rice and beans. Every meal, rice and beans, costs $1 to $2 a day if you break it down, wearing the same clothing, so the same white T-shirt and pair of jeans, remaining unshaven, asking myself all the while, is this the condition I so feared? What does that mean? It means that you are inoculating yourself against unfounded fears, because when I find myself defensive, fearful of losing whatever success or money or prestige or status I might have, whatever that is, or it could be any number of other types of fears, they're usually nebulous. You worry that your quality of life will drop, you'll be very unhappy, but if you rehearse that condition, the worst-case scenario, you realize that it's not that bad, and that is tremendously empowering. It allows you to make better investment decisions. It allows you to take

8. 11:18 – 14:21

   Preface: why Seneca stands out and how to build a daily practice

   1. TFTim Ferriss11:18

      the steps to start your own company, quit your job, start a relationship, end a relationship, because you are rehearsing the worst-case scenarios instead of letting them bounce around in your skull in a very unformed, nebulous way. So that is one of dozens of examples that I could give you. The principles are timeless and incredibly practical, and I particularly like Seneca. I love Marcus Aurelius, I love Epictetus, but I particularly love Seneca because it's easy to read, it's pithy, and the practices can be applied directly to your life now. If you were to take some of these letters and replace the names Lucilius and other Roman-sounding names with John, Mary, Edward, they would read like letters from one of your contemporary friends to another. Hey John, so sorry to hear that you're dealing with that frivolous lawsuit. Let me tell you how I handled this and how I deal with backstabbing in the Senate and give you a few tips. Hey, Mary, I'm so sorry to hear that your friend's mother passed away. Here's how you might console her, etc., etc. They are extremely memorable, and that is because Seneca was one of the most famous playwrights of his day, and that leads to another point. His principles, his philosophies were used on the front lines. He was one of the wealthiest people in Rome as, in effect, an investment banker, I suppose you could think of him as such. He was also an advisor to the emperor. That didn't always work out all too well for him, but that's part of Stoicism. The point being that he was world-class in several fields. He had to deal with uncooperative, powerful, in many cases, human beings all the time, and he was able to do well. And I think that's what separates the philosophers, so to speak, who actually can put rubber to the road and make things happen and philosophologists, as many other people have said, those people who speculate, the armchair quarterbacks. Seneca was not one of these people. He was getting his hands dirty and doing big things. And the way that I suggest you approach this, and this is certainly the way I have approached it and many people have, is making Seneca part of your daily practice. And the way that you do that is set aside 10 to 15 minutes a day. For me, it is often walking to get my morning cup of coffee, and I will listen to one letter a day. And this is highly therapeutic. It is highly effective as a habit if you want to be more successful in any area, personal or professional. Stoic principles are often practiced in rehabilitation clinics, for instance, with alcoholics. They don't succumb to impulses. In the most practical sense, I suppose, it does share a lot in common with cognitive behavioral therapy. In a sense, you could think of it as putting the first portion of the Serenity Prayer into action, which reads, there are many translations, of course, as, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the

9. 14:21 – 16:32

   Preface close: recommended starting letters and gratitude to John Robinson

   1. TFTim Ferriss14:21

      difference. Stoicism is the training ground for putting this into action. So you have to digest it, just like good nutrition, a little bit every day, put in the time. One letter, 5 to 15 minutes. It might have been born on the porch of Zeno, but it can be used everywhere in the concrete jungle. And I'll recommend a few letters to start with. If you want to bounce around, I suggest you listen to all of them. They will apply to you in your life at different points. Three of my favorites are 13, 18, and 27. So letter 13 on groundless fears, letter 18 on festivals and fasting, letter 27 on the good which abides, which is also hilarious. John Robinson, his favorites do not overlap. They will be very personal. But if you want a few recommendations to start with, start at the beginning of this audiobook, volume one, because it features On the Shortness of Life, which I read and listen to at least once a quarter, usually once a month, and then letters 13, 18, and 27. And I have to, before I part, give a heartfelt thanks to John Robinson. John Robinson, I found on the internet, I was searching for an audiobook of Seneca's letters and essays, and I couldn't find it. And then one day, John Robinson's website pops up. It turns out he's a fan of mine in the four-hour workweek, heard me talking about Seneca in many different interviews, tried to find an audiobook, also couldn't, decided to make it himself, and put together, I think it was 10 to 30 draft essays. I downloaded them when I was in Costa Rica and needed some recalibration. I needed to address some unfounded fears of my own, and I was blown away. Whatever voice I had in my head for Seneca, it was John. It was perfect. And I reached out to him. We started to collaborate. We put this entire thing together, and he has just been a superstar. So thank you very much, John, and thank you to all of you for listening. I'm so excited and envious of you in a way if you've never heard or been exposed to Seneca before. And as he would say, take care.

10. 16:32 – 18:03

    Letter 13 begins: building confidence through tested resilience

    1. JRJohn A. Robinson16:32

       Letter 13. On Groundless Fears. I know that you have plenty of spirit; for even before you began to equip yourself with maxims which were wholesome and potent to overcome obstacles, you were taking pride in your contest with fortune. And this is all the more true now that you have grappled with fortune and tested your powers. For our powers can never inspire in us implicit faith in ourselves except when many difficulties have confronted us on this side and on that and have occasionally even come to close quarters with us. It is only in this way that the true spirit can be tested, the spirit that will never consent to come under the jurisdiction of things external to ourselves. This is the touchstone of such a spirit. No prizefighter can go with high spirits into the strife if he has never been beaten black and blue. The only contestant who can confidently enter the lists is the man who has seen his own blood, who has felt his teeth rattled beneath his opponent's fist, who has been tripped and felt the full force of his adversary's charge, who has been downed in body but not in spirit, one who, as often as he falls, rises again with greater defiance than ever. So

11. 18:03 – 21:06

    Letter 13: suffering in imagination and not grieving before the crisis

    1. JRJohn A. Robinson18:03

       then, to keep up my figure, fortune has often in the past got the upper hand of you; and yet you have not surrendered, but have leaped up and stood your ground still more eagerly. For manliness gains much strength by being challenged. Nevertheless, if you approve, allow me to offer some additional safeguards by which you may fortify yourself. There are more things, Lucilius, likely to frighten us than there are to crush us. We suffer more often in imagination than in reality. I am not speaking with you in the Stoic strain, but in my milder style. For it is our Stoic fashion to speak of all those things which provoke cries and groans as unimportant and beneath notice. But you and I must drop such great-sounding words, although heaven knows they are true enough. What I advise you to do is not to be unhappy before the crisis comes, since it may be that the dangers before which you paled as if they were threatening you will never come upon you. They certainly have not yet come. Accordingly, some things torment us more than they ought, some torment us before they ought, and some torment us when they ought not to torment us at all. We are in the habit of exaggerating or imagining or anticipating sorrow. The first of these three faults may be postponed for the present, because the subject is under discussion and the case is still in court, so to speak. That which I should call trifling you will maintain to be most serious. For of course I know that some men laugh while being flogged and that others wince at a box on the ear. We shall consider later whether these evils derive their power from their own strength or from our own weakness. Do me the favor, when men surround you and try to talk you into believing that you are unhappy, to consider not what you hear, but what you yourself feel, and to take counsel with your feelings and question yourself independently, because you know your own affairs better than anyone else does. Ask, is there any reason why these persons should condole with me? Why should they be worried or even fear some infection from me, as if troubles could be transmitted? Is there any evil involved, or is it a matter merely of ill report rather than an evil? Put the question voluntarily to yourself. Am I tormented without sufficient reason? Am I morose, and do I convert what is not an evil into what is an evil? You may retort with the question, how am I

12. 21:06 – 22:38

    Letter 13: interrogating fear—present facts vs. uncertain futures and rumor-driven panic

    1. JRJohn A. Robinson21:06

       to know whether my sufferings are real or imaginary? Here is the rule for such matters. We are tormented either by things present, or by things to come, or by both. As to things present, the decision is easy. Suppose that your person enjoys freedom and health, and that you do not suffer from any external injury. As to what may happen to it in the future, we shall see later on. Today there is nothing wrong with it. But, you say, something will happen to it. First of all, consider whether your proofs of future trouble are sure. For it is more often the case that we are troubled by our apprehensions, and that we are mocked by that mocker rumor, which is wont to settle wars, but much more often settles individuals. Yes, my dear Lucilius, we agree too quickly with what people say. We do not put to the test those things which cause our fear. We do not examine into them. We blench and retreat, just like soldiers who are forced to abandon their camp because of a dust cloud raised by stampeding cattle, or are thrown into a panic by the spreading of some unauthenticated rumor. And somehow or other, it is the idle report that disturbs us most. For truth has its own definite boundaries, but that which arises from uncertainty is delivered over to guesswork and

13. 22:38 – 28:38

    Letter 13: choose hope, rehearse ‘what if it happens,’ and stop postponing life

    1. JRJohn A. Robinson22:38

       the irresponsible license of a frightened mind. That is why no fear is so ruinous and so uncontrollable as panic fear. For other fears are groundless, but this fear is witless. Let us then look carefully into the matter. It is likely that some troubles will befall us, but it is not a present fact. How often has the unexpected happened? How often has the expected never come to pass? And even though it is ordained to be, what does it avail to run out to meet your suffering? You will suffer soon enough when it arrives, so look forward meanwhile to better things. What shall you gain by doing this? Time. There will be many happenings meanwhile which will serve to postpone or end or pass on to another person the trials which are near or even in your very presence. A fire has opened the way to flight. Men have been let down softly by a catastrophe. Sometimes the sword has been checked even at the victim's throat. Men have survived their own executioners. Even bad fortune is fickle. Perhaps it will come, perhaps not. In the meantime, it is not. So look forward to better things. The mind at times fashions for itself false shapes of evil when there are no signs that point to any evil. It twists into the worst construction some word of doubtful meaning, or it fancies some personal grudge to be more serious than it really is. considering not how angry the enemy is, but to what lengths he may go if he is angry. But life is not worth living, and there is no limit to our sorrows, if we indulge our fears to the greatest possible extent. In this matter, let prudence help you, and contemn with a resolute spirit even when it is in plain sight. If you cannot do this, counter one weakness with another and temper your fear with hope. There is nothing so certain among these objects of fear that it is not more certain still that things we dread sink into nothing and that things we hope for mock us. Accordingly, weigh carefully your hopes as well as your fears, and whenever all the elements are in doubt, decide in your own favor. Believe what you prefer. And if fear wins a majority of the votes, incline in the other direction anyhow, and cease to harass your soul, reflecting continually that most mortals, even when no troubles are actually at hand or are certainly to be expected in the future, become excited and disquieted. No one calls a halt on himself when he begins to be urged ahead, nor does he regulate his alarm according to the truth. No one says, The author of the story is a fool, and he who has believed it is a fool, as well as he who fabricated it. We let ourselves drift with every breeze. We are frightened at uncertainties, just as if they were certain. We observe no moderation. The slightest thing turns the scales and throws us forthwith into a panic. But I am ashamed either to admonish you sternly or to try to beguile you with such mild remedies. Let another say, Perhaps the worst will not happen. You yourself must say, Well, what if it does happen? Let us see who wins. Perhaps it happens for my best interests. It may be that such a death will shed credit upon my life. Socrates was ennobled by the hemlock draught. Wrench from Cato's hand his sword, the vindicator of liberty, and you deprive him of the greatest share of his glory. I am exhorting you far too long, since you need reminding rather than exhortation. The path on which I am leading you is not different from that on which your nature leads you. You were born to such conduct as I describe. Hence, there is all the more reason why you should increase and beautify the good that is in you. But now, to close my letter. I have only to stamp the usual seal upon it, in other words, to commit thereto some noble message to be delivered to you. The fool, with all his other faults, has this also. He is always getting ready to live. Reflect, my esteemed Lucilius, what this saying means, and you will see how revolting is the fickleness of men who lay down every day new foundations of life and begin to build up fresh hopes even at the brink of the grave. Look within your own mind for individual instances. You will think of old men who are preparing themselves at that very hour for a political career, or for travel, or for business. And what is baser than getting ready to live when you are already old? I should not name the author of this motto, except that it is somewhat unknown to fame, and it is not one of those popular sayings of Epicurus which I have allowed myself to praise and to appropriate. Farewell.

14. 28:38 – 32:00

    Post-reading wrap-up: 5-Bullet Friday, then closing sponsor reads and show outro

    1. TFTim Ferriss28:38

       Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is 5 Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And 5 Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I have read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by 99designs. 99designs is a great partner for creating and growing your business. It's a one-stop shop for all of your graphic design needs, whether that's a logo, website, business card, or anything else. I use 99designs to get book cover prototypes for The 4-Hour Body, which went on to become a number one New York Times bestseller. And I also use them for banner ads, illustrations, and other things. With 99designs, designers around the world compete to create the best design for you. You give feedback and then pick your favorite. You end up happy or you get your money back. It's very simple. You can check out a few of my own designs and those of yours, meaning Tim Ferriss Show listeners, at 99designs.com forward slash Tim. And right now, my listeners, you guys, will get a free $99 upgrade on your first design. That's 99designs.com forward slash Tim. Check it out. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time, if you could only use one supplement, what would it be? And my answer is inevitably Athletic Greens. It is your all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body, did not get paid for that. And I travel with it to avoid getting sick. I take it in the mornings to ensure optimal performance. It just covers all my bases. If I can't get what I need through whole food meals throughout the rest of the day. And you can get 50, oh my gosh, 50% off. Yes, 50% off if you go to athleticgreens.com forward slash Tim. That's athleticgreens.com forward slash Tim. Check it out. It's tasty, but more important, it will help you not screw up when you're doing your nutritional planning. So for me, just covers the bases, takes a load off my mind, puts a lot in my body. And check it out, athleticgreens.com forward slash Tim.

    2. JRJohn A. Robinson31:31

       If you want more of The Tim Ferriss Show, you can subscribe to the podcast on iTunes or go to fourhourblog.com where you'll find an award-winning blog, tons of audio and video interview stories with people like Warren Buffett and Mike Shinoda from Linkin Park, the books, plus much, much more. Follow Tim on Twitter at twitter.com slash TFerriss. That's T-F-E-R-R-I-S-S. Or on Facebook at facebook.com slash Tim Ferriss. Until next time, thanks for listening.

Episode duration: 32:10