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Tim FerrissTim Ferriss

Tim Ferriss with Kevin Rose — Live 10th Anniversary Random Show!

This week is officially the podcast’s 10-year anniversary, and there is no better way to commemorate such a wild milestone than with Kevin Rose and a little tequila.

Tim FerrisshostKevin Roseguest
Apr 23, 20241h 3mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 0:34

    Preview

    1. TF

      Dating on one hand is very fun, and on the other hand, it's incredibly exhausting.

    2. KR

      How low do you go, just out of curiosity?

    3. TF

      How low do I go?

    4. KR

      Yeah, like-

    5. TF

      What are you talking about?

    6. KR

      I mean, like-

    7. TF

      [laughs]

    8. KR

      Okay, I get how that could be taken a few different ways, but like-

    9. TF

      [laughs] As low as necessary.

    10. KR

      Let's just say, let's just-

    11. TF

      [laughs] Somebody's a fan. [upbeat music]

  2. 0:34 – 1:05

    First live Random Show?

    1. TF

      Good afternoon, everybody.

    2. KR

      Hello, hello.

    3. TF

      Thanks for being here. [bell dings] Hi, Kevin.

    4. KR

      Tim, Tim. We're doing it.

    5. TF

      Kev Kev, we're doing it. Is this our first ever live interview?

    6. KR

      I think so. I think we've always just been at your apartment or house, drinking tequila.

    7. TF

      That's usually how it goes. It's a very formal affair.

    8. KR

      Yeah.

    9. TF

      So [laughs] thanks for being here, everybody.

    10. KR

      Yeah. Cheers.

    11. TF

      Ah, cheers.

    12. KR

      This, with our water.

    13. TF

      With our quote-unquote "water." [laughs]

  3. 1:05 – 1:46

    Reasons to celebrate.

    1. KR

      It's good to see everyone. Thank you for coming out. [cheering] This is awesome. We have a lot to talk about and a lot to celebrate because Mr. Tim Ferriss has hit one billion downloads-

    2. TF

      Yeah

    3. KR

      ... of his podcast.

    4. TF

      Yes. Thank you. [applauding] Yeah. So you are the first to hear this. It actually happened mid last year, and I was waiting for the right time to talk about it, and so I figured why not talk about it today? So hell of a milestone. Who would've thought?

    5. KR

      I mean, so many bots.

    6. TF

      At our [laughs]

    7. KR

      So many bots. [laughs]

    8. TF

      And after our first episode where I asked you if you had to be a breakfast cereal, what would you choose and why?

    9. KR

      That's it.

    10. TF

      And then you busted my balls relentlessly, and that continues.

    11. KR

      Yes.

    12. TF

      So some things stay the same.

  4. 1:46 – 3:36

    How long can this go on?

    1. TF

      And 10th anniversary's coming up-

    2. KR

      Yeah, 10 years

    3. TF

      ... next month.

    4. KR

      How long are you gonna keep doing this?

    5. TF

      I'll keep doing it as long as it's fun. I still enjoy doing it. I'll probably tighten things a little bit in the sense that return to some basics. Really try to be aware of not automatically following the majority in terms of trends or new platforms. I think that's a dangerous seduction. Can be helpful, but you want to be thoughtful about it. So I'll probably back off of video in a lot of ways, as one example.

    6. KR

      Hmm.

    7. TF

      And especially, personally will back off of short-form video, not because there's anything inherently bad about it, but that's just not my game. So I like to choose games where there's some Venn diagram overlap of energy in for me, recharging, and also capability.

    8. KR

      Yeah.

    9. TF

      So a good question that I like to ask friends, I like to ask myself is, you know, what is easier for you than other people? Whatever that is.

    10. KR

      Hmm.

    11. TF

      And typically you'll have an advantage there. You either have some particular skill or you have some particular type of endurance that will give you a competitive advantage. Not that you have to compete. It's not zero sum. But holy shit, is podcasting crowded. [laughs] It is really, really crowded, and there are some very, very, very talented interviewers out there.

    12. KR

      Yeah.

    13. TF

      So it's become a much more saturated red ocean of sorts, and the practice for me as I pause at 10 years will be to think about how I can create more blue oceans for myself, which I find more exciting. But if it's 15 years, 20 years, I'm gonna be having these conversations no matter what.

    14. KR

      [laughs] Yeah.

    15. TF

      The question is, do I record them and then put them on a podcast? I don't know, but I'll continue to have these conversations, so my feeling is why not just record them? [laughs] It's not a heavy lift.

  5. 3:36 – 5:15

    Mmm…Mmm.

    1. KR

      When you think back over, say, those last 10 years, like, there has to be i- in, not in a slamming way, but there has to be some really challenging interviews that you've had in terms of just, like, someone was just so sharp you couldn't keep up or just like, "Oh, God, I was really hoping this would go better." Like, any, any fun stories? You know what? Maybe not the, that this would go better, but, like-

    2. TF

      [laughs]

    3. KR

      ... who was just, like, so sharp they just absolutely blew you away?

    4. TF

      Oh, there's so many. I mean, there are a lot. I mean, Martine Rothblatt comes to mind as one who's just incredibly, incredibly sharp. There are many others. I can tell you one where I was the most intimidated, and it showed up in the recording, which was with Ed Catmull of Pixar at the time, who was the first person I interviewed who I had not had any previous contact with.

    5. KR

      Hmm.

    6. TF

      And we got on, had no established rapport of course. Very nice guy. Very sharp. And I was so nervous. [laughs] I'll flash forward and give you the punchline. On Twitter and other places, I saw feedback, dozens of tweets that said something like, "Great podcast, but hmm, hmm, hmm," like "mmm...mmm," and I was like, "What the fuck?" And I went back and I listened to it, and every time Ed said anything, I was like, "Hmm, hmm, hmm."

    7. KR

      [laughs]

    8. TF

      Super Japanese. I can say that, I used to live there. And I was just like, wow, I am, like, compulsively, nervously indulging myself with this tic, and these days we would fix something like that. [laughs] But at the time I was like, "Oh,

  6. 5:15 – 6:27

    Inflection points.

    1. TF

      still work to do."

    2. KR

      Who, who is the biggest... I have to say, I, I think, I, I can probably guess this, but in terms of, like, fanboy, I mean, obviously Arnold now you're best friends with. We see you, pictures of you skiing.

    3. TF

      [laughs]

    4. KR

      You guys play chess. You do all this shit together. Arnold must have been a huge one for you.

    5. TF

      Huge, huge, yeah.

    6. KR

      But Hugh Jackman must have been-

    7. TF

      Also huge.

    8. KR

      Yeah.

    9. TF

      Huge, Jackman.

    10. KR

      Yeah.

    11. TF

      He's a large man.

    12. KR

      Yeah.

    13. TF

      And everything you would hope him to be, as a side note. I would say there were, there were a few inflection points in terms of guests, because at the time, celebrities on podcasts was pretty uncommon, and A-listers on podcasts, quite uncommon. I would say Arnold was certainly one, that first conversation. For me, Tony Robbins was also another that was a big one. And a lot of these folks did their first podcast on The Tim Ferriss Show, which was also- Really fun for me. Jamie Foxx took a year and a half, two years to get booked, and that just blew my mind. He is the ultimate performer on every level. Jamie Foxx and Hugh Jackman, I would say, certainly standouts in terms of decathletes of entertainment. They can do everything. It's, it's incredible. So I'd say those, those stand out certainly as a couple of inflection points.

  7. 6:27 – 8:13

    Interesting over impulse.

    1. TF

      And it's just been experiment after experiment, and it's very personally driven, and that is to keep my interest high, and it's also to try to counteract any impulse to chase Google Trends and whatever might be in the news cycle, right? So for instance, there was a year where my first interview with Balaji went parabolic and completely insane in terms of downloads. I mean, millions upon millions upon millions of downloads. And there was a-

    2. KR

      This one where he got a lot of predictions right?

    3. TF

      He did, yeah.

    4. KR

      Okay.

    5. TF

      He got a lot of predictions right. I would say that in that particular case, we had an internal conversation, and I think that you have to be very careful about your audience shaping you. You can become a caricature of your most extreme views or behaviors, and if you allow that to drive your behavior, you can become the mask that you wear. And I've seen that. We've both seen that with folks who have their most extreme views and headlines reinforced on, say, YouTube, and then they suddenly replicate that and emphasize it, and they become that person. They become the actor on the stage. So you have to be careful about that. And the impulse was to do more crypto, more crypto, more crypto. I said, "No, we're not gonna do that. Actually, we're gonna do zero crypto for a while," just to make it clear that our priorities for the show are a little bit different. So I continue to be thrilled by the conversations. I've had a lot of fun, and I'll keep doing it as long as it's interesting [laughs] .

    6. KR

      Awesome.

    7. TF

      Because if it's not interesting for me, it's not... That's going to be clear to the people who listen. Do you know what I mean?

    8. KR

      100%.

    9. TF

      Yeah.

  8. 8:13 – 11:05

    Bitcoin ETFs.

    1. KR

      We got a lot to talk about.

    2. TF

      We have a lot to talk about, and we have, we have much more limited time than we would normally have.

    3. KR

      Yes, 47 minutes left.

    4. TF

      So let's, let's jump into it. Where do you-

    5. KR

      You wanna start or you want me to start?

    6. TF

      I want you to start.

    7. KR

      All right. So we've come up, classic Random Show style, with a handful of things to just BS about. Speaking of crypto, I mean, it's having a moment again.

    8. TF

      It is.

    9. KR

      Obviously a very cyclical type environment. Like, we're back up. Things are going crazy. I did something wild, and, and we always do this weird thing where we say... Not weird, but important thing where we say, "Not investment advice."

    10. TF

      [laughs] Very important.

    11. KR

      I took... You know, over the years when you leave various jobs, you tend to have, like, a little 401 [k] sitting over here, or if you've done a Roth IRA or something like that. The nice thing about the fact that we actually have ETFs now is that you can put actual crypto in... You buy these actual ETFs that are crypto. I mean, we all saw that that got approved. And so what I decided to do was take all of those retirement accounts, and there's like three or four of them, and just convert them all to Bitcoin ETFs. And this sounds crazy, and I'm not saying that this is for everyone, 'cause certainly I believe diversification-

    12. TF

      It's not for everyone [laughs] .

    13. KR

      It's not for everyone. But the nice thing about it is that at retirement you get all those gains tax-free.

    14. TF

      Mm-hmm.

    15. KR

      And the, the thing that people don't know is-

    16. TF

      If there are gains.

    17. KR

      If there are gains.

    18. TF

      [laughs]

    19. KR

      Yes, that's right. If there are gains. But the thing that people don't know is that there are, there are so many c- competitive ETFs that are out there, right? You got BlackRock, you got Fidelity, Franklin Templeton. You've got probably another dozen or so, and they all charge management fees. But if you take a look behind the scenes and actually peel back who's providing the services underneath these, you know, just tickers, it's largely Coinbase. Fidelity is the only one I think that does their own custody of actual crypto. There might be one or two others, but almost everyone is Coinbase on the back end, okay?

    20. TF

      Mm-hmm.

    21. KR

      So really at the end of the day, what you want is the lowest fee. And so Franklin Templeton has the lowest expense ratio of all of these, and so I just moved everything into Franklin Templeton's ETF and just keep it that way. And then at retirement, 59 and a half, you get to start taking disbursements of that. And if there are gains, you get them tax-free.

    22. TF

      Mm-hmm.

    23. KR

      So it's kind of a fun little hack to do, you know, just if you want to see that upside over, you know, the next couple of decades, if there is upside, like [both laugh] and, and take it out tax-free, which is-

    24. TF

      Yeah.

    25. KR

      You know, I typically would never... Obviously if you're just gonna go buy and hold Bitcoin, why pay the fees, right?

    26. TF

      Mm.

    27. KR

      There's, there's tons of exchanges you can go and, and, and pay less. You don't have to pay an annual fee like you would with an ETF. But if you're gonna do it in a tax-free account, like, that makes a lot of sense.

    28. TF

      Yeah.

    29. KR

      So that's my one little fun little thing I did the last couple of weeks.

  9. 11:05 – 12:32

    PROOF news.

    1. KR

      I've had a lot of fun little things the last couple weeks, but that was, that was-

    2. TF

      What would be second place on the roster?

    3. KR

      Oh, Jesus. Well, we sold PROOF.

    4. TF

      Yeah. Congratulations.

    5. KR

      So my, my NFT venture over the last few years.

    6. TF

      Mm-hmm.

    7. KR

      Uh, went to Yuga Labs, which I'm, I'm happy found a home at a place that is actually building, you know, what I consider to be a very high quality game with a microeconomy and something that has some real legs to it that hopefully, you know, will turn into something that is, that is durable and that is large. I mean, they wanna build... Uh, I, the quote I heard was kinda Roblox for adults, which is like, you know, an infrastructure where you can go and build and create worlds inside of a 3D environment that has, you know, its own built-in currency and an economy powered by, you know, NFTs and actual assets inside of that world.

    8. TF

      Mm-hmm.

    9. KR

      So, you know, I realized finally it, I came to the stage where after being a couple years in, I know I'm not the hardcore degen. I'm not gonna be getting there on stage trying to, like- Tell people things with-

    10. TF

      Tell people about crypto

    11. KR

      ... up, up, and up and up.

    12. TF

      [laughs] I'm kidding.

    13. KR

      It's hard. We talked about this at length, you know, a, a podcast ago, when last time we did the Random Show. But, you know, I wanted to find a good home, so it was no easy feat to go and work and, and try and find, you know, someone like Yuga who, if anyone's gonna make it, good Lord, I hope-

    14. TF

      Yeah, for sure

    15. KR

      ... they do. So that's been a nice kind of like transition and, and, and new move.

  10. 12:32 – 15:13

    What’s Kevin’s next project?

    1. TF

      So personal question related to this. My experience as someone with front row seats to your entrepreneurial journey is every time you have an exit or finish a company, you say, "I'm never doing a company again."

    2. KR

      I'm doing one again.

    3. TF

      Never again, and then six months later you start another company. So if you were me, what odds would you give Kevin Rose to sticking to that?

    4. KR

      99% I'm not gonna start another company.

    5. TF

      [laughs]

    6. KR

      No, I'm telling you. Well, here's the thing I realized, like this is, this is the true story. Like, and people that have followed this, the stuff and, and I, I wanna-

    7. TF

      Don't hurt me. Don't hurt me.

    8. KR

      No, no, no.

    9. TF

      No, more, more. Don't hurt me. Don't hurt me. More, more. [laughs]

    10. KR

      Listen, you wanna start going down some shit.

    11. TF

      [laughs]

    12. KR

      He brought in tequila behind the scenes. You're not supposed to.

    13. TF

      [laughs]

    14. KR

      Um, so, uh-

    15. TF

      It's all my fault

    16. KR

      ... we had a little bit of that.

    17. TF

      Such an enabler.

    18. KR

      So there we go. We might get-

    19. TF

      Mm-hmm

    20. KR

      ... kicked off stage now.

    21. TF

      [laughs]

    22. KR

      I had to come back with something. That's all I got.

    23. TF

      [laughs] That's all you got.

    24. KR

      So-

    25. TF

      All he has

    26. KR

      ... here's the deal, like the one thing I did realize with this startup, the two things, is that anytime you tie finances to a startup, like meaning like people's financial wellbeing, it is a whole nother level of emotion that you get from people that are, you know, participating in what you do.

    27. TF

      Yeah, for sure.

    28. KR

      And that's the most challenging startup I've ever faced. And then the second thing I realized is that like I love that early stage ideation, like, you know, coming up with the idea for zero fasting early on before it was a, a thing and, or Dig in the early days. I don't like the scaling aspect. Appreciate the one woo out there. Somebody-

    29. TF

      [laughs]

    30. KR

      ... some of the members dig. But I don't a- appreciate the scaling. I'm just not good at it. It's not in my DNA to be able to manage the, you know, call it when you're just getting started, it's the 10 things you need to do, and then you get to five to 10 people, 15 people, 20 people, and all of a sudden there's emotions involved and not everyone's up to speed. And, you know, there's, there's a lot of more of the just logistical management of humans-

  11. 15:13 – 17:02

    Don’t DIY your TMS.

    1. TF

      between. Uh, so I wanna switch gears a little bit and mention something that I'm incredibly excited about, which is the most impressive, let's call it mental health intervention that I have encountered in the last 10 years. So as some of you may know, I've been very involved with supporting a lot of research, basic science and so on, related to psychedelic compounds and psychedelic sys- therapies. That has been because th- I believe they can really change the lenses through which we look at psychiatry, mental health, and so-called mental disorders completely due to some of the effect sizes and durability of, say, effects on complex PTSD, treatment-resistant depression and so on. But I'm actually tool agnostic. Just like with startup investing, I'm looking for uncrowded bets with super high leverage potential outcomes. I'm quite agnostic about the tools. And I will say, and you and I have talked about this privately a little bit, but in the last, let's call it year, especially the last six months, I've done a very deep dive on a new iteration of an older technology, which is TMS, transcranial magnetic stimulation. So this is a type of brain stimulation. The technology has existed for a number of decades, but the protocols and the neurotargeting has advanced really quickly.

    2. KR

      There was full subreddits where you could go and learn how to do it yourself at home.

    3. TF

      Don't DIY this. Do not.

    4. KR

      People were literally having burns on their skin-

    5. TF

      Yeah

    6. KR

      ... from doing it.

    7. TF

      This is Darwin Awards territory. Don't do this, guys. In part because you can make things a lot worse if you don't do it the right way.

  12. 17:02 – 17:47

    The SAINT protocol and accelerated TMS.

    1. TF

      But to, to jump to the punchline, I have gone through two rounds of something called accelerated TMS, and you can learn a lot about this by looking at a number of scientists, including Nolan Williams out of Stanford. I did an interview with Nolan on the podcast for people who wanna do a deep dive. And they developed what was previously known, it's gone through some rebranding, the SAINT protocol, which is a very condensed protocol for administering TMS. So you have these magnets. They elicit, in this case, theta bursts, and typically you might have TMS treatments over the span of many weeks, many months. They're compressing 50 sessions into 10 days, or actually 50 sessions into

  13. 17:47 – 18:36

    Kevin wonders how magnets work.

    1. TF

      five days. Excuse me.

    2. KR

      Pause for one second, though. For people that don't know, what does this look like for you? So you said magnets. I'm, I'm thinking like, you know, I don't know what I'm thinking. But like what are you-

    3. TF

      [laughs]

    4. KR

      What are you actually doing? Are you hooking shit up to your head?

    5. TF

      Yeah, you-

    6. KR

      Are you in a lab? Are you doing it at home?

    7. TF

      No, you're not doing it at home. So you are in a clinic or a lab, and there are different iterations of this. So my first round Was with a, a company called Brainsway, and they use a particular H7 coil. They're developing new technologies. That's ef- effectively a helmet that you then attach to your head with a chinstrap, and based on specific targeting, depending on the condition you're trying to address, which could be depression, treatment-resistant depression, could be generalized anxiety disorder, could be OCD, any number of things.

    8. KR

      ED.

    9. TF

      [laughs] Right, ED, sure.

  14. 18:36 – 22:28

    How accelerated TMS has helped me.

    1. KR

      Everybody's got their thing.

    2. TF

      If there's magnetic Viagra-

    3. KR

      [laughs]

    4. TF

      ... then there's a whole new business I need to invest in, so yeah, sure. And [laughs] and then the second round was with, uh, Magnus Ventures and a different, slightly different technology, but it effectively looks like a paddle that is placed on the head, and they use computer vision and, and pretty sophisticated targeting. But the upshot of this is going into it, no one will be surprised. I remember when I had my first diagnostic interview with one of these psychiatrists, and we went through this long multi-hour process and they said, you know, [inhales] "You score X, Y, and Z, and it seems like you have moderate to severe OCD." And they were like, "This might take a little while. I know this is heavy news. If you need to take a break." And I was like, "Are you kidding me?" [laughs] "Like, this is no one... This is a surprise to no one. [laughs] Like, let's, let's move on." So I went in with pretty high assessment scores for, just to simplify the whole thing, OCD, which looking at my family, you'd be like, "Yeah, obviously," and then anxiety and a lot of long-term listeners will know bouts of, uh, depression. Um, that also is, is pretty much kinda genetically hardwired. Did these two sessions and with three months so far of durability, no longer meet any diagnostic criteria for any of those. It has been the most durable, noticeable on a day-to-day, week-to-week basis change in my state that I've ever experienced.

    5. KR

      Can you give me, or if you care to share, can you give me something like, let's just say on the OCD side, where you were doing it previously, you had the treatments, and now it's no longer a thing?

    6. TF

      Yeah, yeah, I can give examples. And I should say your mileage will vary, and the sample sizes are still very, very small for accelerated TMS, which is... I'm an early stage guy, too, right? Like, I like to get involved, but there are many unknowns, many open questions. They're still in, I wanna say, sub, you know, thousands in terms of subjects. In some cases, for say OCD, it's probably fewer than 200 would be my guess. I'm, I'm making up some of these numbers, but I don't think they're very far off. So there's still a lot to figure out. But as an example, I've had lifelong onset insomnia where my brain will just not quiet down. You know, my mind is like, "I've been waiting all day to talk to you. Ahhh. Bahhh," you know? And [laughs] and it can take me an hour or two hours to fall asleep. In three months, that's effectively gone to zero. None of that.

    7. KR

      That's crazy.

    8. TF

      The best sleep I've had in a v- in decades.

    9. KR

      Do you look at Oura data as well to see like, am I getting the proper deep sleep? Am I getting the-

    10. TF

      You know, I haven't gone super granular. I recognize the, how that could be helpful in a sense, but I really feel like we can outsource our awareness to devices and metrics where it's, it's pretty simple.

    11. KR

      Well, you know when you wake up too.

    12. TF

      Like if the, if the effect size is large enough, it should be pretty obvious. And I will say just there are some people who respond inversely to this, right? It can worsen some people's conditions. I've seen a number of lives transformed. We have the most data for depression by far. And if you talk to really competent, sophisticated psychiatrists who have looked, keep abreast of the latest technology, they will say, "Finally, TMS is delivering on what we hoped it would deliver." Like, the promise is finally, finally we're seeing some of the results we were hoping to see.

  15. 22:28 – 26:30

    Consumer access to accelerated TMS.

    1. KR

      So there's been so many devices, even at home devices that claim to do, you know, TMS-

    2. TF

      Yeah

    3. KR

      ... that you can, you can literally, I've seen them on Amazon.

    4. TF

      Yeah. [laughs]

    5. KR

      But here's the, the real question is like, okay, obviously you did all of the proper due diligence around figuring out who's the best of the best in this business that's actually doing the real science.

    6. TF

      Mm-hmm.

    7. KR

      How soon until that actually propagates out to clinics where you would feel comfortable saying, "Okay, now's the time when the average person can go and do this"?

    8. TF

      [sighs] It, it's hard to say. I, I will say on a widely distributed basis, but that's also like Uber Black got all this criticism early on, and then those people subsidized the development of Uber X, and over time cost went down. And that's how-

    9. KR

      What's the price?

    10. TF

      Well, I would say it ranges at this point, because insurance will not cover accelerated TMS, at least as far as I'm aware, from let's call it, i- if we're looking at competent, well-trained outfits who are vetted, 5 to 15K for that five-day period. But here's the thing, depending on your conditions, depending on your resources, if you were to ask me how much would you pay to go back 20 years and have this treatment? I'd be like, "Take half my net worth. It's fine." Like the, the payoff is-

    11. KR

      That makes sense

    12. TF

      ... the payoff is so noticeable. Now, it's not a silver bullet, nor are psychedelic-assisted therapies, by the way. It's not one shot, one kill with the conditions. So most people will go back for boosters every three to six months for, say, a single day of treatment, not necessarily five days. But the, when I say effect size, people can look this up, but the magnitude of change and durability is so far beyond Pretty much any conventional treatment that I can think of, especially if you exclude maintenance therapies that are really just covering symptoms or suppressing symptoms. I'm very, very excited about this. In terms of time, I ca- I couldn't tell you. I think that it will be more widely available at retail, where people pay out of pocket, in the next six months to 12 months.

    13. KR

      How will someone know if that has been the same thing that you're doing? Is there like a, is there some type of like certification or what, what do you look for? 'Cause I've seen these types of clinics.

    14. TF

      Yeah.

    15. KR

      I've seen it being offered in various places.

    16. TF

      Yeah, I would look for people who have real clinical experience, who are working with established hospitals and have some bonafides. There's a lot of fly-by-night TMS operations, just like there are lots of rent-a-shamans on like Craigslist and Facebook who did some weekend yoga course in Costa Rica and suddenly they're [laughs] gonna save your soul. Probably not a great idea. Similarly, if it's like, "Yeah, we run a, you know, dentist office and we offer TMS," like, eh, maybe you don't do that. Or like the people who are like, "Yeah, we will fix your nails and give you semaglutide," like, eh, they'll be mixed in the bathroom, like maybe you don't do that. So I think, you know, common sense applies, but it has been really fascinating, and the reason you don't wanna DIY it, or one of the many, many reasons you don't wanna DIY it [laughs] is that you're dealing with very sensitive circuitry, right? This whole thing in our heads, as far as I know, is powered on roughly the electricity of a light bulb. We really don't know how it works, how we're able to function at such a high level. I suspect there are all sorts of... And this is true for all faction, like quantum effects and many, many complicated mechanisms that we just do not understand. And when you're applying a magnetic pulse to your brain, you are f- and this is simplified, but you're either activating or deactivating, right? Enhancing or suppressing some degree of activity or a network of activity. And if you screw that up, you can get the opposite of what you're looking

  16. 26:30 – 27:31

    How TMS feels, and other possible uses.

    1. TF

      for. So-

    2. KR

      Is there any real time like feeling? Like when you're sitting there, are you like seeing shit?

    3. TF

      Feels like someone flicking the side of your head. Uh, there are no visuals or anything, but you feel like someone's flicking the side of your head, and each day you feel like you ran a mental ultramarathon. Like if you were cramming for the LSATs every day for 15 hours straight, that is the degree of mental exhaustion. It's very tiring.

    4. KR

      Do you find that it's improved your cognitive tasks? Like are you like able to-

    5. TF

      Yeah

    6. KR

      ... like is there any performance enhancing benefits to this as well?

    7. TF

      Well, I do think TMS is gonna be used for performance enhancement. I think it could be used for sports enhancement and many things. So I, I do think, especially in the world of anti-doping and so on, that athletes are gonna start to use TMS pre-competition for enhancing, who knows, visual acuity, reaction speed. That's gonna happen for sure. 'Cause you can already use TMS to change trait hypnotizability. Like if you wanna make people more susceptible to being hypnotized, you can use this. [laughs] It's gonna get super wild really quickly.

  17. 27:31 – 30:00

    Potential downsides.

    1. TF

      I will say that one thing I have noticed on the plus or negative side, depending on how you look at it, is that [laughs] I've been so much less productive in the last few months.

    2. KR

      You seem really chill right now.

    3. TF

      Uh, yeah, super chill. Here's what I would say. I wouldn't trade the productivity for my current sense of calmness, and I was chatting with a therapist about this and they said, "Well, I think for a lot of people, that anxiety is used as a fuel to work, to basically run away from things, not run towards things." And I was like, "Yeah, I could see that. That doesn't seem shocking to me." So, you know, a question I've tried to ask myself with a lot of different projects is am I, am I running away from something or am I running towards something? That seems a very important distinction to make. And also, another reason not to DIY this is [laughs] in a lot of cases you're, let's just say in the case of anxiety, so you have too much like f- fight or flight, or freeze let's just say. So you wanna dampen that a little bit so you can move around without being a head case. Okay, great. You still need some of that fight or flight in your life, so you can over-dampen that. Or maybe you wanna increase your parasympathetic response. This is gonna be very personal. I didn't really think I would talk about this publicly, but, so there's, there's a shorthand in medical school, they say point and shoot, in other words, [laughs] parasympathetic to get an erection, sympathetic to orgasm. Both of those are really important. So after I got my sympathetic smashed, I couldn't orgasm for like two weeks and I was freaking the fuck out. I was like, "Did I just completely screw up my hard wiring? Like I'm never gonna orgasm again? That seems like a high tax to pay." Uh, fuck, you know? [laughs]

    4. KR

      Was the engine there? Like-

    5. TF

      Scary moment

    6. KR

      ... like you didn't have a problem with the thing?

    7. TF

      The point, no.

    8. KR

      No, okay, it was just the-

    9. TF

      [laughs]

    10. KR

      ... the finish.

    11. TF

      It was the shoot that was the problem, yeah.

    12. KR

      Jesus, man.

    13. TF

      So like that could freak you out or let's say like-

    14. KR

      This is classic Tim Ferriss, like early like trying the craziest shit.

    15. TF

      You know, I'm taking the bullet so other people [laughs] don't necessarily have to.

    16. KR

      Don't, are not-

    17. TF

      But these are all reasons why you don't wanna buy a kit on Amazon and just start zapping your brain while you're watching Netflix. Yeah. All right.

    18. KR

      Unless you're fast and you need to slow down, then, then-

    19. TF

      You know, hey, if, if somebody else wants to run that NO1, like knock yourself out.

    20. KR

      Yeah. Yeah.

    21. TF

      But I'm not gonna do that. Anyway [laughs]

    22. KR

      All right.

  18. 30:00 – 32:09

    How to find out more about accelerated TMS.

    1. TF

      Moving on. [laughs]

    2. KR

      So last question and then we can move on. Is there a website or anything where, where you went? Like where did you go if someone's listening to this and they're like, "I wanna go where Tim went"?

    3. TF

      Yeah, I mean, this is where I would like to have, and this is not for any reason other than I'm gonna, I'm going to defer on that just because I want to have some more experience. Also, I wanna do a follow-up. I wanna see what the durability looks like before I start recommending outfits.

    4. KR

      I appreciate that.

    5. TF

      So I will do that. I'll have more to say about this, but for people who wanna do a deep dive, Dr. Nolan Williams and the podcast that I did with him touches a lot of this. I will also say just a quick note, which is there are some theories around, say, depression, which are not chemically focused. So instead of like, oh, serotonin imbalance, this imbalance, which is a little antiquated in a bunch of senses, it's not that it isn't a non-variable, but it doesn't seem to be the primary determinant. It could be that different structures in the brain are firing out of sequence.

    6. KR

      Mm.

    7. TF

      And you can use the TMS to correct that sequence. So instead of firing like BAC, it's like, oh, well, let's slightly tweak that system so it's firing in what we see in normal healthy, is which is ABC. Pretty interesting-

    8. KR

      Yeah

    9. TF

      ... to be able to basically just reset the, the tripwire sequence.

    10. KR

      Yeah.

    11. TF

      So something I think we'll be hearing a lot more about in the h- next handful of years, and it is better tolerated than most medications, like from a risk profile perspective, for most people. In very rare cases, it can trigger seizures, like there are adverse side effect potentials, but for the vast majority, very well-tolerated. So I'm, I'm excited about it, because, for instance, psychedelic-assisted therapy is contraindicated for lots of people. There are many people who should not take this or engage in, in that type of therapy. Too many risks involved. People with, say, borderline personality disorder, with h- family history of schizophrenia, et cetera.

    12. KR

      Yeah.

    13. TF

      But they wouldn't necessarily be automatically excluded from doing something like accelerated TMS.

    14. KR

      Yeah.

    15. TF

      So that's exciting to

  19. 32:09 – 39:20

    How to appear human in social situations.

    1. TF

      me.

    2. KR

      All right, we've got 22 minutes left.

    3. TF

      What you got?

    4. KR

      They're cutting us off. So one of the things that, uh, dawned on me at, at South by Southwest, and I, I'm curious to get a, a... We'll do a poll at some point here, but one of the things that's really challenging, at least for me personally, is like when we go to these events or you go to events and gatherings, social gatherings, I'm okay on stage and I'm okay interviewing folks, but I actually don't like social events. Like, they're... I get a little anxiety around them.

    5. TF

      Yeah.

    6. KR

      And it's largely because it's like a lot of-

    7. TF

      Thank God you had that tequila beforehand, huh?

    8. KR

      Y- yeah, exactly.

    9. TF

      [laughs]

    10. KR

      The, the, the social lubricant does help, but it, it's largely because it's a lot of kind of like small talk, you know?

    11. TF

      Oh, yeah.

    12. KR

      Like, "What do you do for a living?" Like this and that, right?

    13. TF

      Yeah, totally.

    14. KR

      I had this fantastic guest, Charles Duhigg, recently on the podcast just a couple days ago.

    15. TF

      Great author.

    16. KR

      Yeah, fantastic, called Super Connectors. How many people, like, have a hard time at e- at events? Like, raise, raise of hands, just out of curiosity. A lot of people.

    17. TF

      Yeah.

    18. KR

      It, it's, it's, it's a challenging thing, and so, like, those icebreakers and all that shit, like, I don't know what to say.

    19. TF

      Mm-hmm.

    20. KR

      And this, this author was fantastic. So Super Connectors is the book that I, I just am in the process of reading right now, and it's really about a couple of things, like one, how can you get to a deep conversation quickly, and then how to build trust with the person you're having a conversation with. And that can be used for relationships, like first dates. It can be used for eventually, you know, working business partnerships. Like, how is trust actually formed in terms of social interactions? And a lot of it comes down to the questions that you ask, and actually the follow-up questions that you ask, and then the reciting of what the person said to make them know that you actually heard what they were saying. And so it's just a fascinating, fun topic, and I was just curious, like, is that something that you've ever had issues with, or have you ever studied, like, you know, how to create these lasting, long, bonded kind of like connections with other humans?

    21. TF

      Yeah, [laughs] I think about it all the time.

    22. KR

      You really?

    23. TF

      Oh, yeah, for sure. And I'm also... I can pretend to be the extrovert and play the extrovert on stage like this, where I'm safely at a distance talking to one person [laughs] in front of a lot of people, but I am very introverted. You've seen this.

    24. KR

      Yeah.

    25. TF

      Where it's like if I'm at a big group dinner, I'll take 20 bathroom breaks, and it's not because my prostate is old. It's because I need to do Lamaze breathing in the bathroom, be like, [inhales] "Okay. I'm okay. [sighs] " You know?

    26. KR

      Yeah.

    27. TF

      Smile. And I can get back out there. So I've thought about this a lot, because what I've found also is that if you study this type of thing, it makes you more comfortable and less overwhelmed in these circumstances.

    28. KR

      Yes.

    29. TF

      So it is not only helping the person or making the person across from you feel more comfortable. In my case, it helps me feel a lot more comfortable. So what have you learned from this book? Are, are there any particular-

    30. KR

      Yeah, I mean, there's a couple things. One is-

  20. 39:20 – 40:27

    Jinjer and Sohn.

    1. TF

      I wanna give people a little Scooby Snack, which is totally unrelated to zapping brains or point and shoot. This is, if people want to hear something that 99% of you will hate, I'll give it to you anyway. This was, I'll give credit to S, I'm not gonna mention her full name, but there's a band called Jinjer, J-I-N-J-E-R. [laughs] This is a Ukrainian metalcore band. It is super hardcore. The range is impressive with the vocalists involved. [laughs] It's very hardcore. But this was introduced to me [laughs] and I've been listening to it. Pisces, let's start with that track. And, uh, so if you want something really strange to listen to, you're welcome.

    2. KR

      [laughs] This is the Random Show.

    3. TF

      It's the Random Show. Gotta live up to the name.

    4. KR

      Okay. Let me give, I'm gonna give you one then. SOHN, S-O-H-N.

    5. TF

      Ah, yes. You have-

    6. KR

      The artist SOHN

    7. TF

      ... you've been texting me nonstop about SOHN.

    8. KR

      SOHN is amazing.

    9. TF

      Uh-

    10. KR

      Underrated. I mean, he's got some tracks that have, like, millions of views, but, like, underrated, like, amazing music just to chill out to. So S-O-H-N.

    11. TF

      S-O-H-N. Also the name of a great finance conference. Unrelated.

    12. KR

      [laughs]

  21. 40:27 – 43:00

    Android and Gemini.

    1. KR

      All right.

    2. TF

      Okay. Android/Gemini. I wanna hear about this.

    3. KR

      Well, yeah. Okay. L-

    4. TF

      [laughs]

    5. KR

      I'll hit, I'll hit one real quick, you hit one real quick, and then we're gonna, we're coming up on time.

    6. TF

      I mean, we have 14 minutes.

    7. KR

      Yeah, that's true.

    8. TF

      [laughs]

    9. KR

      Every six months I try to move to Android, and I fail, and it sucks.

    10. TF

      Yeah.

    11. KR

      I get, I, "I really wanna do it," and I get the phone, and I'm like, "Okay, I'm excited." This is the first time where I installed the beta for Gemini, and Gemini is their, their AI stuff, right? Their ChatGPT competitor. Gemini sucked, like, six months ago. Not even that, like, three months ago was horrible. It's gotten a lot better.

    12. TF

      Yep.

    13. KR

      No doubt. I mean, it's Google, right? You're gonna throw some serious resources at this and figure out this problem. They did this update where your, i- you can actually integrate it into and replace the assistant on your phone now.

    14. TF

      Mm-hmm.

    15. KR

      In much in the way that you can assign to the new Apple iPhone, you can take this new button that's in the corner, the action button, and assign it to ChatGPT.

    16. TF

      I saw him using this in The Green Room. It was-

    17. KR

      We had a, a disagreement about-

    18. TF

      Actually, I was, I was very impressed

    19. KR

      ... milligrams in hem, coffee, uh, caffeine.

    20. TF

      There were a few hallucinations-

    21. KR

      Yeah

    22. TF

      ... but [laughs] it was pretty convincing up until the punchline.

    23. KR

      But the crazy thing is that for the first time I realized that, like, I can't move to Android full-time because of the freaking bubbles, the green bubbles.

    24. TF

      [laughs]

    25. KR

      But aside from that, I will say that it was providing me insights that were actionable, relevant, and unexpected, which I thought was just fascinating. Like, I'll give you an example. I was supposed to head to the airport to catch a flight to come out here, and, you know, I'm with my family, with my kids, I wanna say goodbye to my girls. Getting to LAX from my house is about an hour-ish and change, you never know, right? And I got a notification, it was like, "Hey, we saw on your calendar the flight. We know the, the time you have to leave. This is your check-in, this is your carousel, and you actually have an extra 30 minutes." And I was like, "Holy shit." That was, like, all proactive, right? And, you know, you ask Siri something, you're like, "Hey, how many points did Steph Curry score last night?" And like, sometimes-

    26. TF

      "I'm sorry, I didn't get that."

    27. KR

      Yeah. He's like, "Here's your results from the web." And you're like, "Gee, I, thanks."

    28. TF

      [laughs]

    29. KR

      Like, okay, I could have Googled that, Siri.

    30. TF

      [laughs]

  22. 43:00 – 44:16

    Content production and future fame.

    1. TF

      gonna get better.

    2. KR

      So this is a true story. Right now, yesterday, I saw my podcast fully translated into Spanish and Japanese, in my voice and in my guest's voice, and then I have another company that is doing the lips perfectly.

    3. TF

      [laughs]

    4. KR

      And so now they-

    5. TF

      You have very supple lips.

    6. KR

      They're very plump. I-

    7. TF

      [laughs]

    8. KR

      ... I get the injections. Um, I don't.

    9. TF

      [laughs]

    10. KR

      That'll just be, like, pulled out and put on Twitter.

    11. TF

      [laughs]

    12. KR

      Um, they, they will be [laughs]

    13. TF

      It's gonna be on my YouTube.

    14. KR

      They'll be released, they'll be released actually in all these other languages, and I'm i- imagining you're gonna be doing that at some point soon.

    15. TF

      Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's surprisingly straightforward. It's wild.

    16. KR

      We'll all be getting a global audience in, like, every product and everything we do in the next two to three years.

    17. TF

      Yeah, I mean, the sheer volume of content production is gonna be so outrageous that I think there are gonna be a number of secondary and tertiary effects, including the half-life of fame is gonna go down dramatically, right? There's, there, there's not going to be another Oprah who has command over-

    18. KR

      Mm

    19. TF

      ... half of a country with a show like that, and the decay rate's gonna be really fast, which I'm looking forward to personally, 'cause-

    20. KR

      I don't know, there's some-

    21. TF

      ... this, this, like, public thing gets a little

  23. 44:16 – 46:35

    Jake Paul vs. Mike Tyson.

    1. TF

      tiring [laughs] after-

    2. KR

      What do you think about Jake Paul and Tyson?

    3. TF

      Uh, if... I've read some... Oh, God, okay. So if we're gonna [laughs] ... So Tyson's 57 years old. He's in incredibly good shape-

    4. KR

      Yeah

    5. TF

      ... given everything.

    6. KR

      Did you watch those clips of him, like, punching the... He's still got-

    7. TF

      Yeah, in the-

    8. KR

      ... some serious-

    9. TF

      In the tight turquoise shorts?

    10. KR

      Yeah.

    11. TF

      Yeah, I hope he wears those shorts when he fights.

    12. KR

      [laughs]

    13. TF

      So, yes. I... Look, I don't wanna fight Tyson. I have heard rumors they're gonna, they're going to require headgear and 18-ounce gloves.

    14. KR

      That's bullshit. They can't do that.

    15. TF

      That gives too much advantage to the young buck with more endurance. I'd say if you're gonna fight, make it a real boxing match.

    16. KR

      If someone said, "Tim, you don't ever have to podcast again. $200 million, step in with Tyson."

    17. TF

      No. No. Absolutely not.

    18. KR

      Dude, you wouldn't take two rounds.

    19. TF

      You take one punch from a professional fighter-

    20. KR

      [laughs]

    21. TF

      ... and the TBI, like, you're not gonna be able to count afterwards.

    22. KR

      [laughs]

    23. TF

      So-

    24. KR

      Well, you got your magnets and shit. You'll be fine

    25. TF

      [laughs]

    26. SP

      [laughs]

    27. TF

      Got my magnets. Yeah, no. I, I need no more head trauma in my life. [laughs]

    28. KR

      I think Tyson's gonna kick his ass.

    29. TF

      Yeah, I mean, my-

    30. KR

      Which I, I, you know, I, I respect the guy 'cause he went from YouTuber to, like, legit fighter. Like, no doubt-

  24. 46:35 – 50:31

    Kevin’s deflated balls.

    1. TF

      So... Oh, here we... I got one we should touch on since we talked about point and shoot. [laughs] Do you wanna talk about Kevin's deflated balls? That's my line item here. [laughs]

    2. KR

      That's your notes? Yeah, we can... Thanks, Tim. Uh, appreciate that. Uh, so, well, he, he, you know.

    3. TF

      [laughs]

    4. KR

      How do we even go into this? Um, so one of the things that I find fascinating is these GLP-1 inhibitors that they're going around, the Ozempic and the-

    5. TF

      Mounjaro

    6. KR

      ... Mounjaro.

    7. TF

      Et cetera.

    8. KR

      Because it's gonna change everything. They're talking about, like, honestly, with as much weight loss as it's going to happen over the next decade, you know, the cost of flights will go down because there'll be less weight to actually... Like, these are where they're going with this. It's insane.

    9. TF

      Yeah, a lot of the major retailers budgeting for decreased snack consumption and stuff.

    10. KR

      Yes. It's crazy. So one of the things that people don't know about this is that these started off not as weight loss drugs, I mean, people probably know this, but as type 2 diabetes drugs. And so they're primarily used for glucose control, and one of the things that I've always had an issue with, I went to Attia a decade ago, and he tested-

    11. TF

      Peter Attia-

    12. KR

      Yeah

    13. TF

      ... also a great podcast.

    14. KR

      Yeah, fantastic. Attia's great. The Drive podcast is fantastic. He did, he made me do something called a, a glucose tolerance test. You drink a big sugary drink, and you watch how quickly your body can dispose of the glucose. Unfortunately, mine's really shitty. It takes me a long time to get the glucose out. And so these drugs were always interesting to me from that point of view, like, how can I have better glucose control? Largely because my dad died of a heart attack, my grandfather died of a stroke. Like, cardiovascular disease is, is rampant on my, my father's side, and so there's a, a 20... This is, like, data we asked ChatGPT earlier. This is real data, though. You can go on their website. There's a 20% reduction in cardiovascular events for people that are on these drugs.

    15. TF

      Even accounting for the weight loss.

    16. KR

      Even taking into account and controlling for the weight loss. And so I tried it a long time ago with, with Attia just because I was curious. This was, like, you know, six years ago, and it, it does... You definitely lose your beer gut, which is great. Drew, I see you in the audience. We like our, our beer and our drinks. Drew's awesome. It does help on that front, in the vanity front, but, like, for me, I would wear a Dexcom and my, my glucose was just, like, stable as hell, which was amazing. And I like the cardioprotective benefits of it. I didn't want to stay on it because you lose muscle mass.

    17. TF

      Yeah, that was gonna be the question.

    18. KR

      Yeah, so Attia started talking about this and saying, "Hey, I don't put people on this because you lose muscle mass." So what do you have to do? You have to go and, and do testosterone-

    19. TF

      And just to be clear, you lose muscle mass because you're not eating.

    20. KR

      Right. Protein

    21. TF

      So in a lot of cases, people are not consuming enough protein nor calories.

    22. KR

      Right. Exactly. So you're, you're not getting in enough protein, so you lose muscle mass, and so you can do testosterone replacement therapy to counter it. It's a whole mess. But if you do testos- You've done testosterone replacement therapy.

    23. TF

      Did it post-surgery. Yeah. I did the whole cocktail of things, too.

    24. KR

      You, you've never had a little juice on the side?

    25. TF

      No.

    26. KR

      You hang out with Arnold, dude. You never had a little-

    27. TF

      [laughs] It's not like we're having omelets and steroids for breakfast.

    28. KR

      [laughs]

    29. TF

      No. I [laughs] yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on this. But-

    30. KR

      [laughs]

  25. 50:31 – 54:31

    My single life.

    1. TF

      is what I'm saying. [laughs]

    2. KR

      Yeah. Oh, speaking of which, you're, you're...

    3. TF

      Oh.

    4. KR

      No, you wanted to cover it, son.

    5. TF

      No, no, no.

    6. KR

      You, you're single.

    7. TF

      Yes. Yes. I am. [laughs]

    8. KR

      Well, I, I actually hear some, there's, uh, surprisingly some ladies in the audience-

    9. TF

      [laughs]

    10. KR

      ... which is, uh, which is amazing. Meet Tim Ferriss on the sign. He is signing books. And no, um, how's that going, dude? What's it like now these days?

    11. TF

      I mean, look, anyone here who's [laughs] participating in modern dating I think would agree that it's pretty fucking bizarre. Uh, [laughs] so look, there's some amazing people out there. It is also, I think depending on your standards, one of my friends, I won't name him, but he was like, "Oh, you and your standards." [laughs] Uh, but if you have reasonable standards, it is like finding a needle in a haystack because you're starting from, [scoffs] like, all the apps or all the humans in the world. So I think you need to have s- pretty tight criteria if you're gonna make that remotely tackleable. Like, it's, like, dating on one hand is very fun, and on the other hand, it's incredibly exhausting.

    12. KR

      How low do you go, just out of curiosity?

    13. TF

      How low do I go?

    14. KR

      Yeah, like-

    15. TF

      What are you talking about?

    16. KR

      I mean, like-

    17. TF

      [laughs]

    18. KR

      Okay, I get how that could be taken a few different ways, but like-

    19. TF

      As low as necessary.

    20. KR

      Let's just say, let's just-

    21. TF

      [laughs] Somebody's a fan.

    22. KR

      You got one taker. You got one taker later.

    23. TF

      [laughs]

    24. KR

      That was quite the scream. So w-

    25. TF

      Not against it. I'm not upset. [laughs]

    26. KR

      I mean, like, at your age, are, are you, are, are you-

    27. SP

      [laughs]

    28. KR

      Are, no, are you, are you go- are you going, like, what is it, 27? 30? 32?

    29. TF

      I mean, look, I, I would say... Oh, God. All right. So-

    30. KR

      [laughs]

  26. 54:31 – 1:01:33

    Extending experiential lifespan.

    1. TF

      All right. We'll go a little bit longer. To shift gears just a little bit just because you mentioned something that has been on my mind a lot, if this might be helpful to anyone, lifespan, life extension. This is in the water. A lot of people are talking about it. A lot of people are obsessing over it. And a lot of folks are mostly, like, tech males, if I'm being frank. But, uh, a lot of people are interested in not dying, so there is that. But there's, uh, a lot of bandwidth, a lot of money being ... allocated to thinking about life extension. And I would recommend, we mentioned Peter Attia earlier, Outlive, his book talks a lot about health span, not just life span. Take a look at that. But on a very different level, I've been thinking a lot about experiential life span. So I think most people in this audience have probably experienced varying degrees of time dilation, where maybe you go on an extended hike, maybe you take a few days to do X, Y, and Z, maybe it was during COVID because of everything that was changing minute to minute, where you have, for periods of time, an increased frame rate. It's like your normal frame rate, I'm making this up, is, like, 24 frames per second, but then you go to, like, 1,000 frames per second, and an hour or a day or a week can feel like months. So I've been thinking a lot about how you can engineer that and schedule that in your life. And if you, say, schedule three or four things that you know produce this time dilation for you, if that, say, just based on the frame rate, right, kind of expands your year experientially to be an additional three months, even if you don't extend your max lifespan, you've extended your max experiential lifespan really significantly.

    2. KR

      So what's been your strategy for that?

    3. TF

      'Cause there are a lot of miserable fucks who wanna live forever. I mean, let's be honest. I, I hate to say it, but it's just like, oh, wow, you just wanna make this painful journey as long as possible.

    4. KR

      Okay.

    5. TF

      Like, that's one way to go about it.

    6. KR

      So what are your strategies for that? What is your, like... We all agree, like, as you get older, like, it seems like time is just compressing and going faster and faster.

    7. TF

      Yeah. Uh, there, there are a few things, and there's a great article from Johns Hopkins University magazine called Awestruck, which I actually put on my blog because it resonated with me so clearly. I recommend people check that out because I do think awe, and there are assessments, of course, for ranking your experience of awe in different environments. But it's worth thinking about because I do think it correlates to this time dilation. There are a few things that hop to mind. For me, extended time off the grid in, say, mountainous environments seem to produce that. Being in seasonal environments as opposed to in one place, say, your experience in an equatorial place or someplace like Costa Rica, for instance, for a lot of people is, seems much faster. Time passes faster than it does in a place with seasons, as one example. Another would be the last few months, I was in the mountains, and I was skiing for the half, uh, for half of each day, and you're changing locations a lot. And people have probably experienced this, where if you're at South by Southwest and you change locations, you go to 10 different places in one day, even if that's just eight hours, it feels longer than if you're sitting at your kitchen table pecking away at email for that equivalent period of time. The experience of time is different. So changing locations, that's something you can very easily plan into your life. There are certain states, of course, I mean, I'm not gonna recommend this. It is, uh, like I mentioned, contraindicated for a lot of people, but certain psychedelic experiences certainly can produce this. But it's not exclusive to that at all, right? If you've been, for instance, places that have a pervasive feeling of vastness, for instance, Montana. You go there, or Alaska, it just feels bigger. Like, the sky and everything seems vaster, and that has an effect on your sensory experience that changes, I think for me at least, my perception of time. Lots of non-verbal stuff. Interacting with animals, [chuckles] that's a whole separate conversation. I'm thinking of-

    8. KR

      Those wolves

    9. TF

      ... Ace Ventura, pet detective, with like the [chuckles] birds landing on his arms. Yeah, yeah, my experience with the wolves, certainly. Uh, so, so there are ways that you can engineer this, but I think that the most practical way to go about it is just to look back at the last two years, identify where you experienced these peak moments of awe, and try to figure out what the characteristics are, the shared characteristics. I think this is a major unlock because, frankly, humans have been trying to figure out the code of immortality and the fountain of youth forever. It hasn't worked yet. I hate to be the one to deliver the news. And I'm, I don't think we're gonna figure it out in the next 50 years. Maybe people will say that's pessimistic. I think I would rather be pleasantly surprised when it works [chuckles] than to bank on it and have it-

    10. KR

      Yeah

    11. TF

      ... not work. So in the meantime, there are some really straightforward things you can do.

    12. KR

      Let me throw out one last little hack before we go that is related to this. Have you had Sunil Gupta on your show yet?

    13. TF

      No.

    14. KR

      So he's, he's awesome. He's fantastic, just human. And he wrote this book recently. It, it's, it's about the wisdom of Dharma and ancient techniques tying back to India and how we can incorporate them into modern life. And one of the things that he, he did some research on was these people that just have this, like, energy that is, is every day, they just keep going. They just have this unbound energy. And one of the people that is like this is Martha Stewart in her 80s.

    15. TF

      Mm.

    16. KR

      So people say that Martha Stewart, now in her 80s, has more energy than she did when she was younger. And they went back, and they asked her, you know, "What are your... What's the secret here? How'd you do this?" And it's breaks in the day, and it's, like, breaking up, don't do back-to-back meetings, but taking 10 minutes-

    17. TF

      Mm

    18. KR

      ... to get outside, to go for that walk for the day, to break it up, and actually you will de-stress yourself, and also the day will seem fuller and longer. But the interesting hack was that- If you ever say, "Hey, we're meeting, we're gonna do a meeting, Tim and I, we're gonna jump on a call and you know what? I'm gonna end 10 minutes early. It's gonna be from 1:00 to 1:50 instead of from 1:00 to 2:00." It never ends that way, right? You always go to 2 o'clock. What he does is he starts his meetings 10 minutes late. So the meeting starts 10 minutes after the hour.

    19. TF

      That's smart.

    20. KR

      So he always gets that break. I thought it was brilliant.

    21. TF

      That's smart.

    22. KR

      And it's a, he's, it's another fantastic book to read.

  27. 1:01:33 – 1:02:42

    This is (Henry Shukman’s) The Way.

    1. TF

      Yeah, so to underscore that, I would say if you feel rushed, your time is gonna feel compressed, right? Seems kinda self-evident, but it's taken me a lifetime to figure this out. [laughs] So there are a bunch of things you can do, right? Like that's part of the reason, honestly, I don't think there's any magic to say transcendental meditation, but taking 20 minutes as a break twice a day. What does that force you to-

    2. KR

      I do, I do The Way every day.

    3. TF

      Yeah, what does that force you to do? It forces you to realize that if I stop for 20 minutes twice a day, my world does not completely fall apart. [laughs] And you end up feeling less rushed and I think it's that cumulative enforced realization as much as the mantra and all this other stuff that is so helpful for folks. So it's helpful for me at the very least. Anything else? Like we should probably vacate the stage. [laughs]

    4. KR

      Yeah, I think that's it. We should plug The Way though, our, our friend-

    5. TF

      Yeah

    6. KR

      ... Henry's meditation app.

    7. TF

      Yeah, let's do it. Yeah.

    8. KR

      That's, it's a great 10 minutes a day to spend. Henry's got a great meditation app that-

    9. TF

      Yeah, Henry is super legit. He's been, uh, on my podcast twice. He's been on your podcast. Henry Shukman, S-H-U-K-M-A-N.

    10. KR

      Yeah.

    11. TF

      Also has some great writing.

    12. KR

      Good way to take 10 minutes and have a break.

  28. 1:02:42 – 1:02:56

    Thank you! Good night!

    1. TF

      Yeah, for sure. All right, I guess that's it.

    2. KR

      Yeah. Thank you, everyone.

    3. TF

      All right. Thanks, everybody.

    4. KR

      Appreciate it. Really appreciate it. [audience cheering]

Episode duration: 1:03:06

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