The Chainsmokers: Stories Behind the Songs, AI’s Impact on Music, and Venture Investing | Ep. 30

Alex Pall 0:00 Let me start with, like, a story Jimmy Buffett told us. And we were fortunate enough to have an amazing lunch with him before he passed away, and for us, it was an opportunity to ask, like, an amazing musician about how he got so deeply involved in, like, the business side of his empire, which was, like, Margaritaville. And at the time, you know, he was towards the end of his life, and he was like: I'm building retirement communities that are, like, for my fans. So if you're, like, eighty years old, but you don't wanna, you wanna, you don't wanna go to some shitty retirement home, you wanna go to the Margaritaville experience retirement home. Like, I'm always serving my fans, and always thinking about, like, businesses that are, like, extensions of who I am.

Jack Altman 0:32 Mm.

Alex Pall 0:33 And so, you know, with venture, the more that we spoke to people, whether they're on the investing side, or founder side, or operating side, the more we felt comfortable about, like, a lot of the things that made people great, you know, in those spaces, were things that were inherently things that made us successful in, in, in music. [upbeat music]

Jack Altman 0:48 Alex, I am incredibly excited to be here with you today. I've been looking forward to this, and-

Alex Pall 0:52 Same!

Jack Altman 0:52 ... I know you're really busy, and I, uh, you're juggling two whole businesses, which I'm excited to talk to you about. So thank you for making time for this.

Alex Pall 0:57 Yeah, this is stoked. I'm a big, big fan. I was, I was saying earlier, I've listened to literally every episode except for the last one yet.

Jack Altman 1:03 Means a lot.

Alex Pall 1:04 Yeah.

Jack Altman 1:04 I, um, I wanna start with music, and I love music. I'm obviously, like, mega amateur about it, but I've been a huge fan of your music for a long time, and I always think it's really interesting to learn about the creation of songs.

Alex Pall 1:15 Mm-hmm.

Jack Altman 1:16 I, like, love watching some of my, like, favorite artists talk on YouTube about, like, how songs came together.

Alex Pall 1:21 Yeah.

Jack Altman 1:21 And so I wanna just, like, go through a couple of, like, my favorite songs of yours-

Alex Pall 1:23 Yeah, let's do it

Jack Altman 1:24 ... and just, like, hear about, like-

Alex Pall 1:25 By the way, I, we just did, like, a photo shoot yesterday, and with this amazing creative director, Aidan. And he's shot, like, so many of, like, the creative campaigns around, like, all of these artists that, you know, I'm a huge fan of, and, you know, fashion stuff. And it's so funny talking to him, 'cause he gives you this, like... They give you, like, this unfiltered perspective-

Jack Altman 1:42 Yeah

Alex Pall 1:42 ... where you're like, "Wow, that photo turned out really good." And you're like, "There was a zebra on set." You know what I mean?

Jack Altman 1:47 Right.

Alex Pall 1:47 "And the zebra almost killed Travis Scott."

Jack Altman 1:49 Yeah, totally.

Alex Pall 1:49 And then you're like, "Whoa! Like, you should start a show that just talks about this stuff."

Jack Altman 1:53 Well, it's-

Alex Pall 1:53 Yeah

Jack Altman 1:53 ... so foreign to people. I mean, like, 'cause, you know, you hear a song that's, like, just, like, a premium-

Alex Pall 1:58 Yeah

Jack Altman 1:59 ... song, and you're just like, "How the hell did this happen?"

Alex Pall 2:01 Totally.

Jack Altman 2:01 Like, what goes into it? And for most people, you just don't even understand what the process is.

Alex Pall 2:04 And I, I don't think there's, like, a single song in existence that doesn't have, like, an insane story. Even if it starts out in one day, and it's done in one day-

Jack Altman 2:12 Yeah

Alex Pall 2:12 ... there's, like, eight months that proce- you know, precede it, that are, like, insane.

Jack Altman 2:16 Which actually makes me wonder, like-

Alex Pall 2:18 Yeah

Jack Altman 2:18 ... on that point, before we go into songs, like, can you create a great song formulaically, or does it, like, does it need a story?

Alex Pall 2:24 I don't know if it needs, like, a story all the time. Sometimes, like, like, lately, Drew and I have just making, been making songs where we're just like, "I love this. It just feels good." I don't... Like, I'm not thinking about, you know, the narrative of the song so much or the context. It's just like, "I love these lyrics. I love what, how they feel to me." But it's not, like, rooted in some, like, personal story necessarily. But I do think, like, the creative process is not ever formulaic. You know, like, the songs never start in the same place or the same way. I think there's, like, creative things you can keep in mind, like how you go into a session, and the best ways that you feel like you can get to some level of creativity.

Jack Altman 3:00 Yeah.

Alex Pall 3:00 But like, I know we talked about this before, uh, at some, some point, but like, you know, doing the Chris Martin song... Like, I remember him coming in-

Jack Altman 3:08 Yeah

Alex Pall 3:08 ... and he was literally like, telling us about-

Jack Altman 3:10 Something Just Like This.

Alex Pall 3:10 Yeah, Something Just Like This. And he was telling us about, you know, his creative process, and he was literally just kinda like, "They're just sent down-

Jack Altman 3:15 Yeah

Alex Pall 3:15 ... like, from above." And-

Jack Altman 3:17 That's crazy

Alex Pall 3:17 ... we were like, I remember standing there being like, "What is this dude talking about?"

Jack Altman 3:20 Yeah.

Alex Pall 3:20 Like, we're j- Like, we just-

Jack Altman 3:22 Yeah.

Alex Pall 3:22 "No, it doesn't."

Jack Altman 3:22 It's funny.

Alex Pall 3:22 We like, we spend time in the studio-

Jack Altman 3:24 Yeah

Alex Pall 3:25 ... and we, like, get the songs done. And, and then now, like, you know, whatever, five years later-

Jack Altman 3:29 Yeah

Alex Pall 3:29 ... we're like, "He was totally right." [laughing] Like...

Jack Altman 3:31 That's funny. I, I love Chris Martin. I mean, I think, I think, I think Chris Martin, I think he's, like, a real artist.

Alex Pall 3:36 Yeah, yeah.

Jack Altman 3:36 And, like, Coldplay is obviously, like, this... On some level, it's like this mass-produced-

Alex Pall 3:41 Well

Jack Altman 3:41 ... like, for-everybody thing, but he's a real artist.

Alex Pall 3:43 No, I think they're one of the greatest, you know, bands ever. Um-

Jack Altman 3:46 Yeah

Alex Pall 3:46 ... you know, obviously getting to know him and the band, and understanding, like, how they operate and work, I mean, it's, like, nothing short of, you know, like, pure, you know, magic in the respect they have. And, you know, it, it, the music obviously kind of speaks for itself.

Jack Altman 4:00 Yeah.

Alex Pall 4:00 But, like, there's so many things that go into consideration when Chris and the band, like, move forward with a song.

Jack Altman 4:07 I went to a Coldplay concert recently, like, a couple months ago.

Alex Pall 4:10 Mm.

Jack Altman 4:10 And I hadn't been to one since I was, like, seventeen.

Alex Pall 4:13 Yeah.

Jack Altman 4:13 You know, like, in high school in St. Louis, and I like... It was awesome then. And it was, like, fricking awesome now.

Alex Pall 4:17 Yeah.

Jack Altman 4:18 And I was just like, you know, the whole place is vibing.

Alex Pall 4:20 Dude, it's insane. He-

Jack Altman 4:21 Your, your song comes on, you know-

Alex Pall 4:22 Yeah

Jack Altman 4:22 ... Something Just Like This gets played there.

Alex Pall 4:24 Yeah.

Jack Altman 4:24 Stadium's going nuts. I don't know if you've been to a Coldplay concert, where-

Alex Pall 4:27 Many

Jack Altman 4:27 ... you've seen this happen.

Alex Pall 4:28 Yeah, yeah.

Jack Altman 4:28 [chuckles] And you're just like, "This is cool."

Alex Pall 4:29 It's so cool. Uh, and I'm always like, "Chris, why can't we go on stage with you?"

Jack Altman 4:32 Yeah, get up there. [chuckles]

Alex Pall 4:33 Yeah, we would love to be up there. Uh...

Jack Altman 4:34 Why can't you up there?

Alex Pall 4:35 But, uh, I don't know. I mean, I feel like it's always, we've... I think he's offered in the past, and, like, we had our own show somewhere else-

Jack Altman 4:40 Oh, man

Alex Pall 4:40 ... and stuff.

Jack Altman 4:41 Well, I think-

Alex Pall 4:41 And I think now he's just like, "We're just gonna do it without you guys."

Jack Altman 4:43 Yeah. He's like, "We're good at it."

Alex Pall 4:44 Yeah, we're good.

Jack Altman 4:44 Yeah.

Alex Pall 4:45 Which is totally fine. And it, like, I love when, you know, they're on tour, I get videos, like, every day from somebody, you know, being like, "Here's your song being played," and it's just like, that's the coolest, you know, thing. It's like, hey, I'm sleeping, and someone else is doing the work. It's a great... That's why collaborations

Alex Pall 4:58 are awesome. [laughing]

Jack Altman 4:58 Yeah. So how did that song happen?

Alex Pall 5:00 Um, okay, so there's, like, a few th- parts to it. So, you know, we've been fans of Coldplay forever. I think most electronic art- artists would say that, like, a Coldplay collaboration is, like, top three ar- you know, artists they would wanna work with, for so many reasons, 'cause their music kind of lends itself to this, like, electronic energy. Uh, his vocals are obviously just incredible, and the band's just iconic. And so, you know, they were always on our, like, hey, you know, they, "We wanna get in the studio." We're so down, and they were, like, not down, you know, down, I think, for most of the time. And then our, our manager had reached out, and I think they were like, "Yeah, we'll float it to Chris," or something. But then I think before a show one day, they were, like, listening to Closer backstage, and Chris, I don't know, or the band was like, "This is good."

Jack Altman 5:41 "This is good." [chuckles]

Alex Pall 5:41 "You know, this is interesting. Like, I would get... I'm down to get in the studio." I don't think they realized we had already asked. And so, like, last... You know, literally get a call from their manager, Dave, I'm not sure if he still works with them, and it was just like, "Chris is gonna be in ca- you know, LA, uh, next Tuesday," or something. Like, "Wants to get in the studio. The guy's down." And we were like, "I will drop-... just, you, we'll fly to Antarctica if that's what it takes to do this. Went to the studio, uh, I think it's called The Woodshed-

Jack Altman 6:05 Mm.

Alex Pall 6:05 -in Malibu, which is a beautiful studio, way nicer than any studio we've ever worked in. You know, got there at, like, three PM or something like that, and I think we sat there for, like, two hours alone with his, like, audio engineer. But we were, a- and we're just kinda like waiting. We're like, "I don't even wanna touch anything. What do we do? Should we start working on our own stuff? Should we, like, get ahead of this song?" And then he just walks in, and it's like, you know, there's only a few people on the planet that I feel like would, like, have that gravity when they walk in, and he just, like, comes in like a tornado of energy, and, and just was like, "Hey, guys," you know, "What are you working on? Never break up. This is how song... " You know, and you're just like, "Hold mic."

Jack Altman 6:38 Wow!

Alex Pall 6:38 Yeah, this is insane. And funny enough, like, we sat there probably for, like, four hours, you know, trying different things out, kind of like false starts. I think that's, like, a big part of the creative pro-

Jack Altman 6:47 Like, the three of you, basically, or-

Alex Pall 6:48 Yeah, it's three of us-

Jack Altman 6:49 Yeah. Uh-huh

Alex Pall 6:49 ... and then, and his sound engineer-

Jack Altman 6:51 Yeah

Alex Pall 6:51 ... who's, like, I think being with him. Bill, he's been with him forever. Shout-out to Bill.

Jack Altman 6:54 Probably amazing.

Alex Pall 6:54 Yeah, he's a great guy, and he just, like... I think, again, it's like, sometimes being in the studio is like having a presence without, like, interrupting anything, and Bill is great at that. And, uh, and, you know, we're just, like, throwing chords out, and lyrics out, and different s- little ideas, and nothing's really sticking. You know, it's like we kinda, like, get started on a melody, and it's like, "Ah," you know, like, "Well, let's move on." And then eventually, he's like, "I gotta go put my kids to sleep, pick 'em..." You know, and we're like, "God, that's it." You know what I mean?

Jack Altman 7:21 Yeah.

Alex Pall 7:21 You're like, "We're done here."

Jack Altman 7:22 Yeah.

Alex Pall 7:22 Like, he's not gonna come back.

Jack Altman 7:23 Mm-hmm.

Alex Pall 7:24 And that sucks. You know, that was our shot at a Coldplay song. And so he leaves, leaves for, like, three hours, and but he's told us he would come back.

Jack Altman 7:31 Right.

Alex Pall 7:31 And we're just kinda like, "Is he gonna come back or not?"

Jack Altman 7:33 He's hanging out there.

Alex Pall 7:34 And we were going through, like, stuff. We're like, "We've gotta find something or do something that, like, when he comes back..." And we found these, like, chords that became Something Just Like This, and we were like, "This feels interesting in the context of, like-

Jack Altman 7:45 Yeah

Alex Pall 7:45 ... what a Coldplay/Chainsmokers song might sound like."

Jack Altman 7:47 Yeah.

Alex Pall 7:47 And he finally comes back.

Jack Altman 7:49 Hopefully, in this segment right now, we'll play that, just like, clap, ba, ba-da-ba.

Alex Pall 7:52 It's just a piano. [laughing]

Jack Altman 7:53 Yeah.

Alex Pall 7:53 The, like, the, and-

Jack Altman 7:54 It's so good.

Alex Pall 7:55 It's, it, I mean, it's, it was, like, not complex-

Jack Altman 7:57 Yeah

Alex Pall 7:57 ... by any stretch. And Chris comes back, and he's like, you kind of feel like he's also like, "We've gotta get something."

Jack Altman 8:02 Yeah.

Alex Pall 8:02 You know what I mean? And we play him these chords, and he's like, "That's good. I like that." He just was like, "Give me a mic." Literally, like, grabs a mic and dances around what, like, would be the size of this backyard. And, and just-

Jack Altman 8:13 Really? He's dance- you guys are just together, he's dancing.

Alex Pall 8:15 I'm, we're sitting there, like, almost like a, the energy's like, "Don't move."

Jack Altman 8:19 And he's just-

Alex Pall 8:19 You know what I mean? Like, like, it's like-

Jack Altman 8:20 Wow

Alex Pall 8:20 ... if we move, we're gonna disturb what's about happening right now. And he literally, like, lays down, like, what is probably, like, 80% of the core of the song. And-

Jack Altman 8:28 And the lyrics come to him just naturally-

Alex Pall 8:30 Literally

Jack Altman 8:30 ... as he's going?

Alex Pall 8:30 He's just, like, m- you know, stumbling, like, you know-

Jack Altman 8:33 Wow

Alex Pall 8:33 ... over each lyric, and then just, like, progressively, it's just pouring out of him in, probably in, like, an hour. And he, and, and we're just like, "Holy shit!"

Jack Altman 8:42 Wow.

Alex Pall 8:42 "We have a Coldplay song." And we were all, like, so jacked up, I mean-

Jack Altman 8:46 Could you have given him that beat before you had met him, or did you need that session with him to get that sort of, like, you know, the, that progression?

Alex Pall 8:56 I think we needed that session. I know there's plenty of collaborations that happen, you know, over email, and, and digitally, and I don't think that's, like... You can't not have success that way. But I think, like, you know, he wanted to get to know who we were. We wanted to get to know who he was. I mean, for us, just getting in the studio with him and being a part of that was, like, one of my life's greatest moments. And I think, like, it was important to, like, understand what he wanted to, like, sing about, like, what thematically, like, stuff was speaking to him, you know? Like, a- and so, you know, we could have sent him 40 beats, but, like, would he actually listen to them? Would he, like, have the, have the intention and focus as he went through them? And I think, like, the energy in the room had, like, built up over the course of this day, where there was, like, pressure, but, like, also this, like, expectation, where we were just like, "We're gonna get..." You know, it's like kind of like willing it-

Jack Altman 9:45 Yeah

Alex Pall 9:45 ... into existence. So, you know, I think we always try to get in the rooms with people. But, like, you also can get in the rooms with people and recognize quickly that it's like, "This is not meant to be." So it's, it's scary in that way.

Jack Altman 9:56 Yeah.

Alex Pall 9:56 Mm-hmm.

Jack Altman 9:56 You

Jack Altman 9:57 mentioned Closer during that, which is another really great-

Alex Pall 9:59 Mm

Jack Altman 9:59 ... collaboration. How'd that one happen?

Alex Pall 10:01 That one's a really crazy one. Um, so we were in tour in Illinois on our Friend Zone Tour, which was, like, one of our first bus tours ever.

Jack Altman 10:09 Yeah.

Alex Pall 10:10 Uh-

Jack Altman 10:10 This is when, like, 20...?

Alex Pall 10:11 This is probably, like, 2015-

Jack Altman 10:14 15

Alex Pall 10:14 ... or something like that.

Jack Altman 10:15 Yeah.

Alex Pall 10:15 And on this tour, there's this great artist who's still around, Lewis The Child. And after every show, we'd set up, like, a s- really shitty, uh, production room in the back of our tour bus. So we'd be, like, kinda drunk and tipsy or whatever, and we'd, like, go, you know, what... After the show, everyone would, like, pile into the bus and kind of, like, blast music and dance. And in the back, people were always, like, we would be, like, writing songs, producing things, and we hadn't really, like... We, well, Lewis The Child was on, like, three or four shows with us, and we were big fans of theirs, and we were like, "Let's, you know, let's get in the back and then, like, work on something." And Drew had a pa- you know, like, hi- essentially, like, this song had been, like, floating around in his head for, like, two or three years. He had these chords that his hands, you know, as he would say, like, always just landed on the piano.

Jack Altman 10:55 Mm.

Alex Pall 10:56 And I think any piano player says that, like, you kinda like, there's just, like, certain chords-

Jack Altman 10:59 Yeah

Alex Pall 11:00 ... your hands just, like, gravitate to-

Jack Altman 11:01 Yeah

Alex Pall 11:01 ... when you sit down. And they were the Closer chords, and he kind of had this, like, loose idea of, uh, lyrically of a song, but, like, didn't really have, functionally have, like, any idea of how to, like, build it out into, like, the full track that you know it is today. And so, you know, in this back of this bus, on, like, you know, at, like, 2:00 AM, Lewis The Child and all of us are just kind of, like, jamming, and they came up with, like, a lot of, like, some of the electronic line, 'cause it was much more, like, I don't wanna say acoustic, but, like, ballady at this point in time.

Jack Altman 11:29 Mm.

Alex Pall 11:29 And, and they were really good at kind of this, like, I don't know, like, bouncy electro style. And, and, and, like, a bunch of the song, like, I would say, like, half the song kinda came out in the back of that bus, and we were all like, "This is cool," like, "I really like this." But, like, tipsy, it's late-

Jack Altman 11:44 Yeah

Alex Pall 11:44 ... you're just kinda like, "Cool, I don't know." And then the next day, I think we were in Utah or something, we're like, "Let's play that thing from last night." And there's, like, a bunch of random friends from the area on the bus, and they're just like, "What the fuck is that song?" You know what I mean? And we're like, "Oh, you like it?" They're like, "Play it again."

Jack Altman 11:58 Yeah.

Alex Pall 11:58 And we, like, played it, like, 25 times.

Jack Altman 12:01 In the same format, and you didn't change it at all from the tipsy night?

Alex Pall 12:03 Yeah, really didn't change it-

Jack Altman 12:04 Yeah

Alex Pall 12:04 ... from the, from the night before.

Jack Altman 12:06 Yeah.

Alex Pall 12:06 And we were just like, "Oh-

Jack Altman 12:07 It's actually good?

Alex Pall 12:08 ... Huh." You know, like, like, we like this, but I didn't, like, it didn't scream things to me. And the other thing that it's worth mentioning is, and shout-out to Shawn Frank, he's another great DJ producer that has helped us some countless songs. We didn't, Drew wasn't, had never sung-... anything up until that point in time.

Jack Altman 12:23 Yeah.

Alex Pall 12:23 And we didn't have any singers on tour with us, so he was just like, "I'll just sing it as, like, a scratch demo, and hopefully, you know, we'll find someone else to replace me." And so when we were playing it for people, it was, like, Drew singing, and they were like, "Damn, you know, you, like, sound pretty good," you know, like, in the, at least in the tonally in the world of this song. And it was just wild-

Jack Altman 12:40 Mm.

Alex Pall 12:40 -because Sean, like, to Drew, and I, you know, shout-out to Sean, he was just like, "I can make you sound good. Like, I know you're not a singer, but, like, I have, like, enough experience in, like, Pro Tools and Auto-Tune [chuckles] and all these things where I can make you sound amazing," and he did! And, like, I remember sitting there, like, for, like, a f- you know, a few shows in the back of the bus where Drew would just cut every line over and over and over-

Jack Altman 13:01 Mm

Alex Pall 13:01 ... and over and over again, and it, like, till it started to really, like, glow. And it was just a wild experience. I remember we sent it to our manager and and a few people, and they were like... It was weird, 'cause you send stuff to people, and you don't know what their reaction's gonna be. [chuckles] And our manager was like, "Cool." You know what I mean? [laughing]

Jack Altman 13:16 [laughing] Yeah, yeah.

Alex Pall 13:16 Like, and we were like, "What? Like, this song's amazing!" The, the song, like, just-

Jack Altman 13:20 That's funny

Alex Pall 13:20 ... the story just goes on forever 'cause, like, then it was about-

Jack Altman 13:22 Yeah

Alex Pall 13:22 ... there's so many feature issues and

Alex Pall 13:25 things like that.

Jack Altman 13:25 I'm curious what the... And this is kind of a funny question, but like-

Alex Pall 13:28 Yeah

Jack Altman 13:28 ... what the, uh, impact of, like, drinking or drugs can have on creativity. I feel like, um, in, like, tech circles-

Alex Pall 13:37 Mm

Jack Altman 13:37 ... a lot of the world though, there's lately been this real push towards no drinking, no drugs-

Alex Pall 13:42 Yeah

Jack Altman 13:42 ... like, a very sanitized physiology.

Alex Pall 13:45 Totally.

Jack Altman 13:45 Which I'm all for.

Alex Pall 13:46 Yeah, yeah.

Jack Altman 13:46 Like, I love going to bed early.

Alex Pall 13:47 Yeah.

Jack Altman 13:48 I love feeling good. I just also, of course, know that a lot of creative people, I think both actually in tech, in music, in other fields-

Alex Pall 13:55 Mm.

Jack Altman 13:55 ... like, I do think that, like, alcohol and drugs play some role for a lot of people.

Alex Pall 13:59 100%. I mean, I think it's, like, you know, can obviously loosen your inhibitions and kind of, like, lead you on a path of coming up with ideas or doing things that you... Like, him singing-

Jack Altman 14:08 Yeah

Alex Pall 14:08 ... might have, like, been a result of, like, having a few beers that night, where he was like, "Fuck it, I'll do it." You know what I mean?

Jack Altman 14:13 Yeah.

Alex Pall 14:13 Like, "I don't care if anyone's around me thinking that, like, my voice sucks."

Jack Altman 14:16 Yeah.

Alex Pall 14:16 "I'm just gonna do it." I think it was, like, a double-edged sword. I mean, I totally agree with you. I think, like, I mean, you know, Drew's, like, the epitome of health now. I think, like, we've both been very conscious over our career of, like, "Maybe we need to tone this down a little bit." We've never... I've, like, I've actually never, uh... L- My fun fact is I've never done coke ever in my life-

Jack Altman 14:32 Mm

Alex Pall 14:32 ... which surprises a lot of [chuckles] people.

Jack Altman 14:34 Yeah.

Alex Pall 14:34 We're in Vegas a lot. We played, you know, sometimes, like, you know, four or five weeks of shows in a row. Drugs and alcohol are a big part of, like, music culture historically.

Jack Altman 14:44 Yeah.

Alex Pall 14:44 And, and I think that, you know, there's an obvious reason why. You know, you're dancing, you're having fun, you're partying, those, you know, the associations of that. But-

Jack Altman 14:51 I think part of art even. Like, I think a lot of, like, writers and-

Alex Pall 14:54 Totally!

Jack Altman 14:55 You know.

Alex Pall 14:55 I mean, it's kind of this, like, tortured se-

Jack Altman 14:57 Yeah

Alex Pall 14:57 ... self thing that, like, you know, it's, like, cool to smoke a cigarette, look cool. You know-

Jack Altman 15:01 Yeah

Alex Pall 15:01 ... like, people smoking cigarettes look cooler for some reason. I don't know why.

Jack Altman 15:03 Yeah.

Alex Pall 15:03 But it's, like, definitely gonna give you cancer.

Jack Altman 15:05 Uh-huh.

Alex Pall 15:05 And there's something dangerous and badass about that-

Jack Altman 15:08 Yeah

Alex Pall 15:08 ... like, the self-reverence. But, you know, something we notice with ourselves is that, like, in the studio, the same way that it can, like, enable you to have a little bit, take a little bit, uh, more risk or step outside your comfort zone-

Jack Altman 15:21 Yeah

Alex Pall 15:21 ... it also becomes like a dependency, where you think, like, "Oh, shit, I can't write unless I'm- write anything great, unless I'm tipsy or drunk or having a drink," or something like that.

Jack Altman 15:30 Yeah.

Alex Pall 15:30 And that's, like, definitely a slippery slope, and I think that goes for, like, anyone across anything. You could make that case for, like, you know, marathon runners. You know, it's like, "Unless I run 20 miles today, I'm gonna be in a terrible mood," you know?

Jack Altman 15:41 Yeah.

Alex Pall 15:41 And I think, you know, finding that balance is really, really important and something that, like, we've definitely thought about. I mean, you know, the idea of writing music during the day used to be like, "Hell, no!"

Jack Altman 15:50 Right.

Alex Pall 15:50 You know what I mean? And, like, we write at night, 'cause that's when it's a vibe, and it's cool, and you can kinda, like, cut loose. And now we're just like, "No, I like the focus of the daytime, and, and coming here and, and having, like, the intention of just being, like, 'We're making music, no matter what.'" Mm.

Jack Altman 16:04 It's like writing music, like, caffeinated. Like, I always think that, like, you know, like, after my second cup of coffee-

Alex Pall 16:09 Yeah

Jack Altman 16:10 ... I have, like, a few hours where I'm just like, my brain is at its absolute peak, but-

Alex Pall 16:13 Totally

Jack Altman 16:14 ... it's productive peak. It's not creative peak, but it's productive peak. But I do wonder if you get to a place, even in creative endeavors, where you probably could translate that caffeinated morning buzz into-

Alex Pall 16:24 Yeah

Jack Altman 16:24 ... into music.

Alex Pall 16:25 No, totally. I mean, I think, you know, you have to come in with energy and inspired. But I think like anything, it's like, uh, so much of, and the importance is how you start. Like, I can tell, like, almost right away when we're gonna have, like, a productive day-

Jack Altman 16:37 Yeah

Alex Pall 16:37 ... versus a day where you're just like, "Ugh!"

Jack Altman 16:39 Yeah.

Alex Pall 16:39 We're just, like, hitting walls, and just nothing feels inspiring, you know? And I think it's really tough as you get older. Like, when we started making music, like, really, no one, like, cared about us. Like, no one bothered us, checked in. No one was like, "Hey, I need your eyes on this for 15 minutes," or, "You know, this thing's happening over here that needs your attention." And so, like, it was very much just like we were in the zone, and no one really could take us out of it, and no one wanted [chuckles] to take us out of it.

Jack Altman 17:01 Totally.

Alex Pall 17:01 And, and now, you know, we have to be so much more protective about that stuff. I don't know if you saw, like, our photo on our studio door, but it's, like, a literally a set of rules that are like, "Before you come in here," like-

Jack Altman 17:12 Wow, no.

Alex Pall 17:12 ... you know, "think about this. Like, is what you're about to say really important? Like, are they in the middle of something?" Da, da, da. And, and, you know, 'cause we found that, like, it's so easy for someone to come in and just be like, "Hey, by the way, that, you know, deal or that show-

Jack Altman 17:26 Yeah

Alex Pall 17:26 ... something happened." And you're just like, "Ugh! God dang it."

Jack Altman 17:29 Yeah.

Alex Pall 17:29 And then you're like, "Ugh, now I'm not-

Jack Altman 17:31 It's, um-

Alex Pall 17:31 ... I'm pissed."

Jack Altman 17:32 Paul, Paul Graham's, like, great essay that, you know, talks about the maker's schedule and the manager's schedule.

Alex Pall 17:36 Yeah.

Jack Altman 17:36 And, like, when someone's making things, you need to not distract them.

Alex Pall 17:39 Totally.

Jack Altman 17:39 It's, like, too expensive.

Alex Pall 17:40 The flow state is-

Jack Altman 17:41 Yeah

Alex Pall 17:41 ... very real. I mean, like, Roses happened in one session.

Jack Altman 17:44 Yeah.

Alex Pall 17:44 Like, most, a lot of Closer happened, even though it's, like, an idea that had been floating around, happened in one session.

Jack Altman 17:48 Yeah.

Alex Pall 17:48 Don't Let Me Down, similarly. So, like, there is something consistent about that, and you really, like, wanna stay in that, that place. Most songs still, you'll come back and spend seven months refining and-

Jack Altman 17:58 Yeah

Alex Pall 17:58 ... and tinkering, but generally speaking, it's not like, "Hey, I got 10% of this song out today, and then 20% tomorrow," and then... You know. There's just something... You know, Drew has this great expression where it's

Alex Pall 18:09 like, there's something changes when a song becomes, like, promiscuous. You know? [chuckles]

Jack Altman 18:13 Yeah.

Alex Pall 18:13 And, and it's, like, listened to too m- too many people before it's done, or too many opinions have weighed in on what people think the song should-

Jack Altman 18:21 It, like, smooths out the good edges.

Alex Pall 18:22 Yeah, exactly, and it's just, like, something, m- the magic just kind of, like, eroded away.

Jack Altman 18:27 Mm.

Alex Pall 18:27 And, uh, and I think he's totally true, and I think, like, I'm always like, "Let's not show anybody this thing," or, like, outside of really, like, "Oh, hey-

Jack Altman 18:35 Especially when you know it's good. You know, I think about this a lot. This happens in, in-... This actually happens for me in investing. It happens in other areas of life, too, where you're uncertain, you're uncertain, you know, and you're asking for a lot of opinions, and then every once in a while, there's a thing that you're positive is good.

Alex Pall 18:49 Yeah.

Jack Altman 18:49 And you don't need to ask anybody's opinion, and you just do that thing.

Alex Pall 18:52 I totally agree.

Jack Altman 18:53 And you're like, "I know this is right."

Alex Pall 18:54 You have to, like, trust your gut-

Jack Altman 18:56 Yeah

Alex Pall 18:56 ... at, at the end of the day. Like, I'm a huge intuition, gut guy.

Jack Altman 18:59 Yeah.

Alex Pall 18:59 And that's why I lo- I'm happy to have Drew as a partner, 'cause we kind of like-

Jack Altman 19:02 Yeah

Alex Pall 19:03 ... iron sharpens iron, is kind of like how we think about it. But at the same time, like, it's so easy to get talked out of something awesome. You know what I mean? And, and, like, you know, people don't always have the same context. Everyone's coming with their own, uh, you know, uh, like, experiences that are shaping the way they're thinking about something. So you might be like, "Hey, I love this, you know, idea, nuclear. It's great." And they'll be like, "This guy's, like, never gonna work." And it's like, "Well, is that 'cause you lost twenty million dollars in, like-

Jack Altman 19:29 Yeah

Alex Pall 19:29 ... the last era of nuclear? Or are you actually looking at this with, like, a fresh eye that's not, like, tainted by any past experience?"

Jack Altman 19:36 Yeah.

Alex Pall 19:36 And I don't think anyone could say they're not, in some way, shape, or form, ex-, uh, you know, the, uh, you know, outcome of all of their experiences, sum of all their experiences.

Jack Altman 19:45 Just 'cause I love these song stories-

Alex Pall 19:46 Yeah

Jack Altman 19:46 ... if we could do one more, Don't Let Me Down is another one of my favorites. Can you tell me how that came together?

Alex Pall 19:50 Yeah, and it's funny, because I, like, wasn't in the room when this song was written. It was a, a heartbreaking thing. I think I had, like, a doctor's appointment or something stupid, [chuckles] uh, that day. And so Drew and I, we were in New York. We lived next door to each other on 23rd Street, and we did this session with, uh, Scott Harris and Emily Warren, Emly- both amazing writers. W- Emily's been, like, is, like, one of our closest friends now. I remember they came in and wrote... You know, they were inspired by, uh, kind of like the XX, the band that's their headlin- I think they're headlining Coachella, or close to it this year.

Jack Altman 20:20 Yeah, they're very-

Alex Pall 20:20 Incredible band.

Jack Altman 20:21 Yes.

Alex Pall 20:21 And they just have these incredible guitar riffs, and they wanted d- Dr- and at the same time, Drew had just been challenged by his girlfriend to make a trap song. Uh-

Jack Altman 20:28 Yeah

Alex Pall 20:28 ... his girlfriend at the time. Now, uh, she was just, like, really into, like, Yellow Claw and trap artists, and he was like, "I can, I can make this."

Jack Altman 20:34 I can-

Alex Pall 20:34 You know what I mean? Like, uh, and so-

Jack Altman 20:36 That's funny

Alex Pall 20:36 ... he was like, "But I want to combine, like, our indie approach. I love the XX. I love tr- you know, uh, you know, I do like trap. I just haven't made any of it." And, you know, I remember, like, getting there after everyone left, and he was like: "So we wrote this today." And I was like, "Good God!" You know what I mean? I was like, "What the hell?" Like, it wasn't fully flushed out-

Jack Altman 20:56 Yeah

Alex Pall 20:56 ... but it was, like, pretty-

Jack Altman 20:56 It was good?

Alex Pall 20:57 Pretty damn good.

Jack Altman 20:58 Yeah. [chuckles]

Alex Pall 20:58 I don't think he had the drop yet, but it was, like, coming together, and, uh, and I was like, "What, what's it about?" And he was like, "Well, it's- Emily wrote it about, uh, being lost at Coachella on drugs." And so [laughing] and, and, like, you're supposed to meet up with friends-

Jack Altman 21:12 Yeah

Alex Pall 21:12 ... but, like, that you can't find them, and you're like, "Don't let me down." [laughing]

Jack Altman 21:15 That's funny.

Alex Pall 21:15 And I was like, "This is a, you know, really a, this is a really good song." And then we, like, had a flight later that night, and when we landed, Drew was like, "I think I got the drop." And I was like-

Jack Altman 21:23 Yeah, it-

Alex Pall 21:23 ... and so it was, like, kind of a weird song for me, 'cause I was like, I really didn't [chuckles] have much of a hand in it at all.

Jack Altman 21:28 [music] We're gonna stitch that drop in here, 'cause I just played it in my head.

Alex Pall 21:31 Yeah, yeah.

Jack Altman 21:31 It's so good.

Alex Pall 21:31 And, and then, like, you know, and then I'm like, but I get to, you know, reap all of these amazing rewards for it. And obviously, we f- we didn't have Deja on the song at the time. We didn't have the f- the finale. So a bunch of things, like, I, you know, did get to participate in, but, like, truly, I mean, that was a Drew, Emily, Scott special.

Jack Altman 21:46 Yeah.

Alex Pall 21:46 You know, the last thing I'll say that was really funny about this song is that I remember we were like, "This is the song. This is gonna be the next single, 100%." Everyone that heard it was like, "This is insane."

Jack Altman 21:55 Mm-hmm.

Alex Pall 21:55 And then Drew's computer completely crashed. And I wouldn't say Drew's the epitome of organization. And so we were like, "What do you mean? Like, you've got a backup or, like, something." And he's like, "I don't have anything."

Jack Altman 22:05 It's gone. [chuckles]

Alex Pall 22:05 And so he had to rebuild the entire song from memory-

Jack Altman 22:08 Oh, my goodness

Alex Pall 22:09 ... from scratch. Which is kind of truly insane.

Jack Altman 22:11 Oh, that's frustrating.

Alex Pall 22:12 But he'll tell you that it was actually a really important exercise, and I think this kind of leans into a lot of things that Rick Rubin does really well-

Jack Altman 22:17 Hmm

Alex Pall 22:17 ... which is like, he didn't include anything that wasn't completely necessary, the n- the time, next time around. Like, he was like, "I remember the guitar, I remember the bass, I remember the piano, I remember the drop sou- synth I used, and, and the horns in the end." And it was like, instead of having, like, in the first version, kind of had all these different layers, trying to compensate for things and create more depth and-

Jack Altman 22:37 Yeah

Alex Pall 22:37 ... texture and different things, instead, he was just like, "I gotta get this done. These are the main parts that I remember," and-

Jack Altman 22:42 And the recreation came out better?

Alex Pall 22:44 Better, I'd say, 'cause it was just, like, all the bull- bullshit that was, was, like, kind of removed from it. But I was also like, "We have to... Now we have a very thorough backup [chuckles] system."

Jack Altman 22:53 Yeah.

Alex Pall 22:53 But, uh, but it was a, you know, that was a scary one, 'cause it was like, what if we'd lost that song

Alex Pall 22:57 forever?

Jack Altman 22:57 Actually, this makes me wonder: if you had to go back and recreate, like, you know, similar versions of your existing songs right now-

Alex Pall 23:05 Yeah

Jack Altman 23:05 ... and be, like, make it sound mostly the same, but, like, y- you know, see if you can improve it.

Alex Pall 23:09 Yeah, yeah.

Jack Altman 23:09 Do you think you could? Like, could you go make Paris a little better if you just, like, spent a week on it?

Alex Pall 23:13 I think, like, ch- we've said in the past that, like, Don't Let Me Down and, uh, maybe Sick Boy are, like, the only two songs we've ever, like, finished, that we were like, "Those are done." You know what I mean?

Jack Altman 23:22 Yeah. I don't know how to make this better.

Alex Pall 23:23 Like, like, that is it. Every other song, there's, like, something you would turn down-

Jack Altman 23:27 Closer, you listen to it, and you're like, "I could change that to make it better?"

Alex Pall 23:29 ... Turning something down, turning something up.

Jack Altman 23:31 Uh-huh.

Alex Pall 23:31 You know what I mean? Like, just little, you know, like, tonally, things you might sing a little differently. Nothing significant, you know what I mean? But, like, just, like-

Jack Altman 23:39 Do you do that? So when you play songs, like, live, do you improve them years after you've released them, and then the live version that you play is, like, you stick with an improvement?

Alex Pall 23:48 I think, like, for us, like, yes, I think part of it is, like, DJ culture, of just, like, we want to surprise people. We want people to-... hear the song that they love and know, but, like, surprise them with s- a bigger drop-

Jack Altman 24:00 Mm-hmm

Alex Pall 24:00 ... or something that, you know, just leans into, like, the experience we're trying to create at the show a little more, without, like, ruining the, the actual- You know, nothing's worse than being like, "Oh, that's my favorite song. What the hell is this ver-," you know [chuckles] like, verse you're just playing?

Jack Altman 24:12 I, um, years ago I went to a show of yours in Las Vegas, daytime.

Alex Pall 24:16 Yeah.

Jack Altman 24:16 And I was just like, this is, like, the most unbelievable energy ever.

Alex Pall 24:19 Yeah, it's fun there. It's fun there.

Jack Altman 24:20 It's a crazy energy.

Alex Pall 24:21 It's fun there.

Jack Altman 24:21 And it's gotta be so f- I can't even imagine what it feels like for you. I mean, I, I know anything... We all get used to anything-

Alex Pall 24:26 Yeah

Jack Altman 24:26 ... and so I'm sure after you've done it enough-

Alex Pall 24:28 Every experience is unique and different, 'cause everyone in Vegas is, like, trying to have the best time of their life, which makes that experience really fun for us. But, like-

Jack Altman 24:35 'Cause you're just like, "I'm trying to help this huge group of people just have, like, the best day of their lives."

Alex Pall 24:38 That's what you gotta remember.

Jack Altman 24:39 Yeah.

Alex Pall 24:39 I mean, like, it's been a, like, I've been playing there for, like, seven years now, and you'd go in and you'd kind of be like, uh... I mean, now we've played, like, four or five hundred shows there.

Jack Altman 24:46 Yeah.

Alex Pall 24:46 And you're like, "Yeah, this is, like, routine on some level."

Jack Altman 24:49 But for them, like, they, like-

Alex Pall 24:50 Yeah, and you're like-

Jack Altman 24:51 They block out their time

Alex Pall 24:51 ... That's our job, you know?

Jack Altman 24:52 Yeah.

Alex Pall 24:52 Like, I'm not gonna, uh... Sure, I'll throw in some tracks that I want to educate people on, or I think are cool that maybe aren't popular yet. But, like, a lot of the experience is just, like, "Hey, like, we know what you're here for. I, I've been in your shoes. I just wanna, like, party with my best friends and have a great day-

Jack Altman 25:07 Yeah

Alex Pall 25:07 ... singing and dancing to songs that I love," maybe. And our job is to, like, present them in clever, fun, unique ways that make it interesting. 'Cause it's like, you know, Vegas, I, I, I don't wanna say, like, the people there are the lowest common denominator, 'cause that's not true, but, like, the, the habits of what, as a sum of-

Jack Altman 25:21 Yeah

Alex Pall 25:21 ... our parts, like, they all like "Mr. Brightside." [laugh] You know what I mean? Like-

Jack Altman 25:25 Who doesn't like "Mr. Brightside?"

Alex Pall 25:25 Like, really like that song.

Jack Altman 25:27 Yeah.

Alex Pall 25:27 And so-

Jack Altman 25:27 That's funny

Alex Pall 25:27 ... you know, you're like, but then you'll play, like, you know, a song that's number one on Billboard right now, and people are like, "I don't know this song."

Jack Altman 25:33 Yeah.

Alex Pall 25:34 Yeah, and it's like, damn, this song has not trickled down. And so it's amazing to watch how long it takes for a song to, like, permeate through culture, to, like, reach that broad consumer-

Jack Altman 25:43 Yeah

Alex Pall 25:43 ... base. And it's our job to kind of test those waters and challenge people, but, like, feed them things they know. Like, we have this Closer edit, where we start with "Fast Car," and then goes, like, uh, and then, uh, uh, the Luke Bryan version, and then goes into, uh, Closer, and, like-

Jack Altman 25:58 That's cool

Alex Pall 25:59 ... people love it! You know what I mean? [chuckles]

Jack Altman 26:00 Yeah. [chuckles]

Alex Pall 26:00 'Cause it's, like, country fans now.

Jack Altman 26:02 Yeah.

Alex Pall 26:02 People that love Fast Car, people that love Closer.

Jack Altman 26:04 Mm-hmm.

Alex Pall 26:04 And it like- and, like, just when you think you know the song, you're like, "Oh, it's Closer."

Jack Altman 26:08 Yeah.

Alex Pall 26:08 And then you're like, "Wait, it's Fast Car?" And then it goes back into Closer, and it's like, those are the fun things that you can do-

Jack Altman 26:13 Yeah

Alex Pall 26:13 ... that, like, make, you know, a, a, a pretty straightforward experience more interesting.

Jack Altman 26:18 You have this really rare trait, which is that you are both an artist and a real business person. Even listening to the way you've talked about, like, songs and music-

Alex Pall 26:26 Mm

Jack Altman 26:26 ... you know, part of it is, like, you gotta go internal, make your own thing, not listen to anybody. Like, screw what other people think.

Alex Pall 26:32 Yeah.

Jack Altman 26:32 Which is, to me, like, the epitome of an artist.

Alex Pall 26:34 Mm-hmm.

Jack Altman 26:35 And then you're also like, "Give people what they want, and we're here to, like, deliver, like, an experience for people, and, you know, listen to them and get their feedback."

Alex Pall 26:42 Yeah.

Jack Altman 26:42 Which is, like, the epitome of, like, a business person, and you're both.

Alex Pall 26:44 Yeah, we're... It's a- we're tormented inside.

Jack Altman 26:47 Even the fact that you spend half your time in, you know, as, as an investor, half your time as an artist-

Alex Pall 26:51 Mm-hmm

Jack Altman 26:51 ... you know, that mix-up, I think, is uncommon.

Alex Pall 26:54 It's, it's awesome. I mean, I think, like, for us, you know, when Drew and I met, I guess it's, like, almost 14 years ago now, like, from the very first hang, uh, you know, it was pretty clear to us that we both had re- really big ambitions, but we were very aligned in how we wanted to achieve them. Like, it wasn't like there was gonna be some shortcut to success. We were like, "We're both willing to put in the work and the hours, whatever it takes, to kind of get where we want to go." But I think, like, the unique part... I mean, this was a crazy first meeting. I mean, first we were like: "Do you like Calvin Harris?" You know? [chuckles] And it was like, "Yeah, I like Calvin Harris." It was like, "Cool, what else? What else do we have in common?" But then quickly it was, like, our love for dance music, our background tastes in music, and things we listened to. You know, entrepreneurial endeavors that we h- had throughout our, our youths, that we didn't know each other. And then, like, we kind of, like, we're like, "All right, let's do this." But also, like, when we are successful in, in building The Chainsmokers, like, let's only use that as, like, the stepping stone to, like, building a bigger platform of opportunity and entrepreneurial efforts. We had no idea what those things were, but we were like, from the get-go, we were both like, "It's not just gonna stop here."

Jack Altman 27:51 Yeah.

Alex Pall 27:52 And I think for us, you know, you know, Drew used to sell Timberlands that he bought locally in China.

Jack Altman 27:58 You guys were always entrepreneurs.

Alex Pall 27:59 Always doing stuff, and trying to, you know, find ways to be creative and clever in business.

Jack Altman 28:03 Mm.

Alex Pall 28:03 And I think, you know, music is such a, like, certain part of your brain and personality-

Jack Altman 28:08 Yeah

Alex Pall 28:08 ... that, like, I do think part of us was, like, yearning also for something that was, like, a little bit more tangible and-

Jack Altman 28:14 Yeah

Alex Pall 28:14 ... analytical, and com- I don't wanna say, music's not competitive, but business is definitely a different type of competition or way of thinking about it.

Jack Altman 28:21 Yeah.

Alex Pall 28:21 You know, for us, we had started a tequila company, we had a TV and production company, and venture was kind of the last-

Jack Altman 28:27 Fashion

Alex Pall 28:27 ... most recent thing-

Jack Altman 28:28 Yeah

Alex Pall 28:28 ... fashion, for us. And honestly, I didn't f- know what it was. You know, like-

Jack Altman 28:31 Yeah.

Alex Pall 28:31 I really did not know anything about venture. Like, I, I remember a business manager was like, "I got pinged by some company that wants you to, to, you know, potentially invest and take some equity." And I was like, "What does that me- like, what does all that mean?"

Jack Altman 28:42 Yeah.

Alex Pall 28:42 You know?

Jack Altman 28:42 We're talking, yeah.

Alex Pall 28:43 I mean, I understand what equity means, but, like, what is, you know, venture capital, like, passive income? And he was just like: Listen, uh, you know, you guys have been intelligent about how you've diversified your portfolio over the last few years. Like, this is certainly not something you have to explore, but if you are interested in investing in products or platforms or things that, you know, you think are cool, let's try it, you know? And, like, most of the time you're gonna fail, but, like, maybe you get lucky and, and it will work out. And, you know, we began that journey, and very quickly, it was like a part of our brain lighting up, that, like, I felt like had been, not dormant, but, like, underserved.

Jack Altman 29:19 Mm-hmm.

Alex Pall 29:19 And it was just so fascinating to be passively along on the ride with these founders that had these, like, super ambitious goals and, and, and plans for the future. And, and then, you know, it kind of just, like, avalanche of things came from that.

Jack Altman 29:31 Yeah, and then I'm sure it all, like, plays together and, you know, w- I, I'm sure there's a bunch of ways where, you know, business makes your music better, or music can make your business better.

Alex Pall 29:39 Definitely, definitely.

Jack Altman 29:40 I'm sure there are also ways where you probably feel, like, tensions on certain days, just 'cause there's only so many hours in the day.

Alex Pall 29:45 Yeah.

Jack Altman 29:45 An example I've thought about, um, that I'm actually really curious to hear

Jack Altman 29:49 how you think about: Last year, I got into, like, hi-fi audio.

Alex Pall 29:52 Mm.

Jack Altman 29:52 It was just like, I've always loved music.

Alex Pall 29:53 Yeah.

Jack Altman 29:53 I played music a lot as a kid growing up, uh-... And I love listening to music, and I started listening to albums.

Alex Pall 29:59 Mm-hmm.

Jack Altman 29:59 I find the experience of listening to a whole album, like, super different than just listening to a song.

Alex Pall 30:03 Yeah.

Jack Altman 30:04 And I feel like the difference is I'm listening to, like, an artist rather than, like, you know, a song.

Alex Pall 30:08 Totally.

Jack Altman 30:09 And so it's just like, "Who's this person?" And then I get into, like, you know, their albums over time, and, like, how they, you know, grow and evolve, and you see what they pour into it.

Alex Pall 30:17 Yeah.

Jack Altman 30:17 You and I chatted about this a bit before, but, like, one of my favorites is, uh, Bon Iver.

Alex Pall 30:21 Yeah.

Jack Altman 30:22 And, like-

Alex Pall 30:22 Amazing

Jack Altman 30:22 ... you know, he's just had, like, there's- I can't say enough good things. I'm gonna, you know, mess it up.

Alex Pall 30:27 Yeah.

Jack Altman 30:27 But, like, there was, like, the early days with, like, For Emma, Forever Ago, where it's just like, it's all so raw and young, and he's talking about a breakup, and his, you know, his- I think his band fell apart. He's, like, in the woods with, like, a sad-sounding guitar-

Alex Pall 30:40 Yeah

Jack Altman 30:40 ... but it's amazing. And then he gets into, like, his core stuff a few years later, like, with his, like, self-named album.

Alex Pall 30:45 Yeah.

Jack Altman 30:46 And it's totally different, and there's a band around him now. Then it got really experimental.

Alex Pall 30:50 Mm.

Jack Altman 30:50 Like, he had, like, um, I, Am I. Before that, there was Twenty Two, A Million, and those songs, I'm just like, "What fucking instrument is that?

Alex Pall 30:56 No, I mean, those are mind-blowing.

Jack Altman 30:57 I don't recognize that sound."

Alex Pall 30:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jack Altman 30:58 It's crazy.

Alex Pall 30:59 But Justin Vernon is, like, the GOAT of GOAT.

Jack Altman 31:01 Yeah.

Alex Pall 31:01 You know, I think we talk about this with, uh, you know, like, any artist out there. Like, if Bon Iver's not in their, like, top five, I would be, like, thoroughly surprised by that. Uh-

Jack Altman 31:10 He's just so real.

Alex Pall 31:11 You know, he's like... I don't know cars, but it's like people that are like, you know, there's cars, and then there's car lovers' favorite cars-

Jack Altman 31:17 Uh-huh

Alex Pall 31:17 ... that are universally like, "That's the car," you know? He's like that for musicians, and I think, you know, to your point about albums, which is something, you know, we talk a lot about today, 'cause there's just so many... It's changed so dramatically, the format by which we listen to music-

Jack Altman 31:30 Yeah

Alex Pall 31:31 ... fighting for people's attention. But I do think that, like, you would be hard-pressed to find an artist in the history of music that, like, would stand the test of time that hasn't delivered a w- like, a, uh, an incredible album. I think it's, like, an absolutely essential part if you will ever be mentioned among the greats, and-

Jack Altman 31:47 And those albums, they're just like, um, so much has to go into an album, obviously.

Alex Pall 31:50 Totally, and I think, like, I know, uh, Billie Eilish talks about it a lot. She's just like, "I try not to pick singles on my albums. Like, the context is so important." Like, she's like, "I generally, like, am kind of put off by when an artist is like, 'This song is my single.'" And sh-

Jack Altman 32:06 Yeah

Alex Pall 32:06 ... you know, like, and I think, like, Jack Antonoff kind of said it be- uh, best, actually, where he's like, "Singles are like, uh, without an album, are like hallways that lead to nowhere." [chuckles] You know? Um-

Jack Altman 32:14 Yeah

Alex Pall 32:14 ... and singles can be a path to a story, which is fine, but you need-

Jack Altman 32:18 Yeah, there's a story.

Alex Pall 32:19 You need the story. You need the album, and I know that's, like, harder than ever in today's culture of social media and atte- fighting for attention, and-

Jack Altman 32:26 Well, it must take so much focus. It must... It's not something that you could do in a day. It's not something you could even probably do in a week or a month.

Alex Pall 32:32 No, you have to, like, it's so tough.

Jack Altman 32:33 You have to be tortured for a year, I bet.

Alex Pall 32:34 Literally. I mean, we, I think we've, you know, made some great albums in the past-

Jack Altman 32:37 Yes

Alex Pall 32:37 ... and every album was, like, dramatically different in terms of our approach. Probably the thing that, like, felt closest to what, like, the artists that I really admired and respected it was, 'cause you kind of do have to, like, unplug from the world.

Jack Altman 32:48 Yeah.

Alex Pall 32:48 You're like, "I'm going off into this mental space, and physically, and I'll be back when I have something that I'm excited about, you know? And I don't even know what that is yet. I need to figure out what that story is, what that visual line is, what, you know, w- what I care about right now. What does it feel and sound like?" You know, I'm a huge Tame Impala fan, and he does a really great job o- of, of this. But, you know, for us, like, w- during COVID, we rented a house. It was actually right before COVID, in Hawaii. Um, shout-out to Brian Chesky. He, uh, we were friends of his. We had, like, met him through some events and stuff, and he was like, "If you ever want to, you know, one of the houses to write an album, like, let me know." And we were like, "We'll take the one in Hawaii." [chuckles]

Jack Altman 33:25 [chuckles] Yeah, that's good.

Alex Pall 33:26 Uh, and we went there for, like, four weeks and just did mushrooms and surfed and wrote music literally every minute of the day. And it was like, "This is what..." You know, we weren't taking meetings. We weren't getting interrupted by people.

Jack Altman 33:37 You're like, "This is what it would take."

Alex Pall 33:38 Yeah. We were, like, locked in on this sound.

Jack Altman 33:40 Yeah.

Alex Pall 33:40 Granted, it still took, like, two years to really finish that album.

Jack Altman 33:43 Wow!

Alex Pall 33:43 But, like, when we came back, we were like, "This is the d-" You know what I mean? Like, we had... We were, you know, like, the road had been paved, and we just needed to continue down.

Jack Altman 33:51 Did the mushrooms help?

Alex Pall 33:52 Yes and no. I mean, I think it can lead you, it's like similar to what we were talking about alcohol. It's like, there's, like, the perfect balance. Like, it got us o- out, out of our own way. It's like this ego killer thing. Um, it, like, I wanna say flattened, like... But, you know, when we were all, it, it, like, [chuckles] it's weird. If you do mushrooms with, like, a group of people, for some reason, like, you all hit at the same time.

Jack Altman 34:10 Hmm.

Alex Pall 34:10 And it's, I don't know if anyone listening w- can agree with that, but, like, you could sit around with friends, you all take mushrooms. You're all different sizes, you're all different, you know, biologies, but, like, categorically, like, I guarantee you, you will all be, like, at the same time, be like, "Whoa," you know? And I think that, like, got us and everyone that was there on this similar page-

Jack Altman 34:26 Mm

Alex Pall 34:26 ... where we were really connected and in tune with the things we wanted to say and write and the feeling we got from everything. But at the same time, you can, like, over-index, and then you can get weird. We, you know, start writing about we- really weird stuff.

Jack Altman 34:38 Hmm.

Alex Pall 34:39 And I think, again, it's everything in moderation is important. But at that time, it was like, that was the feeling we want-

Jack Altman 34:44 Yeah

Alex Pall 34:44 ... you know, have. We w- we didn't wanna come in there with angst and aggression from previous experiences. You know, like, our Sick Boy album, like, was filled with, like, kind of, like, resentment t- towards, like, the press and media-

Jack Altman 34:58 Hmm

Alex Pall 34:58 ... and, and how people p- perceived us. It was, like, this weird disassocia- dissociating feeling. But it was weird, because over... That was, like, an album that just came together song by song, in a different way, and then, like, literally, like, eight songs in the album, we were, like, happy again. And [chuckles] you know what I mean? And so, like, this album takes, like, this dramatically different turn.

Jack Altman 35:15 A new feeling, yeah.

Alex Pall 35:15 And you're just like-

Jack Altman 35:16 But I think that's what makes it authentic, when it's like that.

Alex Pall 35:18 100%, but we're just like, "What a weird-

Jack Altman 35:20 Yeah

Alex Pall 35:20 ... you know? Like, like-

Jack Altman 35:21 It is weird when you're listening, and you're like, "Oh, something happened here." [chuckles]

Alex Pall 35:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like, well, you know-

Jack Altman 35:25 Totally

Alex Pall 35:25 ... and so, I mean, it's definitely, like, a reflection of us and the timeline of our lives and the things we were experiencing. But, you know, it wasn't, like, a moment, like-

Jack Altman 35:34 How do you balance, like, wanting to give people what they love, and obviously, like, um, I'm sure a huge part of what drives you is, like, getting to make millions of people happy-

Alex Pall 35:41 Totally

Jack Altman 35:41 ... through music?

Alex Pall 35:41 Yeah.

Jack Altman 35:42 How do you balance that? And you know the type of music they love-

Alex Pall 35:45 Yeah

Jack Altman 35:45 ... with I'm sure you also have your own interests in music and your own desires to grow as an artist in different ways and to try new things.

Alex Pall 35:51 Yeah.

Jack Altman 35:52 And, like, I'm sure there's some tension there.

Alex Pall 35:53 It's such a important question to ask, because I think that there's so many ways to start this. Like, first, you, like, f-... find a sound that's unique to you, and people rally around it and are excited about it. You know, you make this song, and it becomes, you know, not what you're synonymous for, but, like, you know, Tame Impala has a sound. You know, Drake has a sound. Everyone has something that is identifiable, where you're like, "That's, like,..."

Jack Altman 36:15 Yeah

Alex Pall 36:15 ... you know, the vibe. And then you start people being like, "Oh, it's, it's just that again," or, like-

Jack Altman 36:19 Yeah

Alex Pall 36:19 ... "Let's see you make something else-

Jack Altman 36:20 Uh-huh

Alex Pall 36:21 ... and try something else." Naturally, like, the bad s- the suck comments like that for some reason cut through, and we can make anything. Like, we generally are, like, good producers and writers.

Jack Altman 36:29 You know how to make all kinds of music.

Alex Pall 36:30 And then so then you find yourself in the studio being like, "I'll fucking show you." And in some cases, it works, like Drew's ex-girlfriend that was like, "You can't make trap songs."

Jack Altman 36:36 Yeah.

Alex Pall 36:36 You know what I mean? Uh-

Jack Altman 36:37 Look at me now. Yeah.

Alex Pall 36:38 But he found a way to fit in the context of our world, which I think makes sense. And so I think it's so important to, like, stay true to who you are. It doesn't mean don't experiment, doesn't mean broaden your horizons and seek, uh, you know, and explore different opportunities, but I think it's really important to, like, stay in-

Jack Altman 36:53 It just has to be authentic, I think.

Alex Pall 36:54 Exactly. Uh-

Jack Altman 36:55 And, like, if you've changed as a person, I feel like the music should change almost.

Alex Pall 36:58 Absolutely, and it doesn't mean it's like, "I use this one synth, so I use this one synth in every, every song."

Jack Altman 37:02 Yeah.

Alex Pall 37:02 It's just like, hey, like, what's wrong with, like, like, you know, people coming to us for this thing?

Jack Altman 37:07 Yeah.

Alex Pall 37:07 Like Kygo, this is why he does so goddamn well. It's 'cause people come to him for this-

Jack Altman 37:11 Yeah

Alex Pall 37:11 ... sound and experience, and it's fucking awesome. And I think he, you know, he really delivers that experience. I think the other, you know, side of the equation is kind of just this idea of, like, I'm a big Oasis fan, and I love, like, the Liam and Noel Gallagher clips that you're getting from, like, the past. And he has this, like, epic clip that everyone should go see, where he's just like, he's like, "Your fans are idiots." He's like: They don't know what they want. He's like: That's what I'm supposed to deliver to them.

Jack Altman 37:34 Mm-hmm.

Alex Pall 37:34 Like, I tell my fans what they want. They don't tell me, you know, what they want. You know, obviously, he does it in his Oasis way, which is, like-

Jack Altman 37:40 Yeah

Alex Pall 37:40 ... awesome and funny and reverent. But, like, I also totally agree with him, and I think, you know, you have to balance that. You know, we had a song we just put out called "Smooth" that I love, and all of our fans, like, while we were promoting other songs, were like, "Smooth, release Smooth. We want Smooth!" And, like, we made Smooth. We're very excited about Smooth. It is very authentically us.

Jack Altman 37:57 Mm-hmm.

Alex Pall 37:57 I don't think it's, like, a departure, but, like, I think we were also, like, thinking, like, "Oh, this is gonna be our biggest song because our fans are all asking for it." But, like, it, I don't... It's not working out that way.

Jack Altman 38:07 Yep.

Alex Pall 38:07 And so whereas, like, we had released a song last summer called "Addicted" that none of our fans were stoked about but ended up being, you know, one of our biggest songs in the last few years and, like, appealed to a much broader audience.

Jack Altman 38:17 Can you... So you're saying it's not that predictable, what's gonna hit?

Alex Pall 38:19 I think it's just, like, you just gotta do what you, trust your gut, kind of what we were saying earlier. Like, you know, I don't think releasing "Smooth" was a mistake. I love that song, you know?

Jack Altman 38:26 Yeah.

Alex Pall 38:26 And I, but a- and I don't think releasing "Addicted," which none of our fans wanted-

Jack Altman 38:29 Yeah

Alex Pall 38:29 ... was a mistake. I, but I do think it's harder to play Addicted in our shows because it doesn't fit in naturally with, like, the energy we've-

Jack Altman 38:38 Yeah

Alex Pall 38:38 ... we've created, whereas Smooth is just hundred percent Chainsmokers. So I think you kinda have to, like, think about those things long term, and I think, like, "Selfie" is a great example of this.

Jack Altman 38:45 Mm.

Alex Pall 38:45 Like, we made that song as a joke, put it on the internet just for fun, took us, like, thirty minutes to do it. And then we have to live with the song for the rest of our lives, you know, now.

Jack Altman 38:53 Yeah.

Alex Pall 38:53 Like, people expect us to perform it, talk about it. You know, it's part of our history. You know, we didn't think about that so much when we just put it online, and then-

Jack Altman 39:01 The internet

Alex Pall 39:01 ... which is forever. And so it's, you know, those things have consequences, but I think as the artist, it's your job to, like, absorb these things, understand why people are feeling a certain way. Like, I, I think, like, what we should have taken away from the Smooth thing is that people, like, love when Drew's singing. They love the, you know, intimate storytelling of, of, of, of our music, and they like, you know, the hands-up, progressive house production, and it's... But it's doesn't mean, necessarily mean that, like, we should be like, "Smooth is the next song," 'cause they want it, you know?

Jack Altman 39:28 Does good art require external inspiration? Like, can you make great stuff without some catalyst that's inspiring you, whether it's something good or bad that happened in your life, somebody that you saw and learned from and, you know, were, you know, really moved by what they did?

Alex Pall 39:44 Yeah.

Jack Altman 39:45 Can a great thing really just bubble up out of you, or is it always being translated from some inspiration outside?

Alex Pall 39:50 I'm gonna go with inspiration. Like, and I'm not saying that, like, going back to what we were saying about Chris Martin and, like, music being sent down-

Jack Altman 39:55 Mm-hmm

Alex Pall 39:55 ... and you kinda have to, but I think it's, when it's sent down, you have to be in, in a place mentally and creatively to, like, uh, receive that me- you know, message and inspiration. And usually, those feelings are coming from all these experiences that you've had around you in your life. Could be a new love, could be a breakup, could be a movie you've seen, could be a conversation you just had. You know, a lot of the ways we start songs are like therapy sessions.

Jack Altman 40:15 Mm.

Alex Pall 40:15 It's literally like, "Forget music. What's going on?"

Jack Altman 40:18 Yeah.

Alex Pall 40:18 You know, like, "What is... How is your home right now?

Jack Altman 40:20 Yeah.

Alex Pall 40:20 Are you happy in your relationship? Are there any things that surprise you, like, stuff with your family? What's it like being 35 or 40," 40, in my case? Through those conversations, you're kind of led to places or thinking about things that, you know, uh, impacted you, and I think, like, acting's a great example of this.

Jack Altman 40:35 Mm.

Alex Pall 40:35 Like, you're literally, like, being hired to play the role of someone not you, you know? And so, like, you are channeling all of these things you've seen and experienced to, like, try to kind of capture the essence of this character in this film. And I can remember, I think it was, like, a PBS episode, where someone was like, "Great acting... Like, to be a great actor, like, go do everything else except act."

Jack Altman 40:54 Hmm.

Alex Pall 40:54 "Like, go to as many art shows as possible, see as many, as much theater as possible, listen to as much music as possible, read as many books as possible, and, like, then you will have this, like, incredible library of, of context where you can pull from and hopefully create, you know, your own thing." And I think, you know, it's, like, kind of like the conversation about, like, large language models being, like, copyrightable outputs or not. You know, I don't think they sh- really should be, to be honest with you. Um-

Jack Altman 41:20 Have you played around with AI music at all yet?

Alex Pall 41:22 Yeah, absolutely.

Jack Altman 41:22 What do you think?

Alex Pall 41:23 It's incredible and scary and-

Jack Altman 41:25 You think it'll matter?

Alex Pall 41:26 Uh, like, it will matter in terms of-

Jack Altman 41:27 Do you think it will, like, uh, do you think we'll be listening to a lot of AI-generated music?

Alex Pall 41:32 I think we already are. You don't even know it. I think, like-

Jack Altman 41:34 Like, in the middle of your song, there will be clips that AI help, or there'll be parts that AI...

Alex Pall 41:38 Maybe eventually. I mean, I think for us, it's just, like, shocking. You know, kind of, a- again, like, what I like about AI tools right now for us is it just, like, keeps us in the zone-

Jack Altman 41:47 Mm-hmm

Alex Pall 41:48 ... which is all we wanna do. It's like instead of getting caught up, being like, "Fuck, we need to make drums now," it, which is the next part of this creative process for us, and it's gonna take me, like, an hour and a half, it's like-... Never mind, I can prompt this thing to pump out. This might not be the final drums we're gonna use, but it keeps us moving in the process of creativity.

Jack Altman 42:04 Yeah.

Alex Pall 42:04 I think, you know, we've gotten demos sent to us where it's, like, fifteen songs that Drew's singing on, and you're like, "No, no, no. W- well, actually, Drew sounds pretty good on that." And I think that's a really cool application of it. Um, you know, I think that if you were in a nightclub and I was playing an AI-generated song, but it was good, let's just say it was, like, a good song. I don't think anyone would know.

Jack Altman 42:25 Yeah.

Alex Pall 42:25 You know what I mean? Like, genuinely, like, I think, like, if you can kind of do the pla- like, control placebo effect of, like, AI music versus human music-

Jack Altman 42:33 It's, it's pretty good.

Alex Pall 42:34 Yeah, like, would people really be able to, like, determine which was... Which one isn't? Unless, do I think it's important, like, kind of like the similar c- uh, you know, conversation about albums? Like, I do think context matters.

Jack Altman 42:45 Yeah.

Alex Pall 42:45 Like, I think, like, you know, albums provide context the same way that, like, a personality provides context.

Jack Altman 42:50 That's how I feel. I mean, it's harder-- I think a big part of what makes me enjoy music is knowing something about the artist and why the song or the album happened. I don't think that's the only way to enjoy it. Like, I also love just listening to something on the radio-

Alex Pall 43:02 Yeah

Jack Altman 43:03 ... or, like, you know, you're out doing stuff. Like, that's awesome, too.

Alex Pall 43:05 Yeah.

Jack Altman 43:06 But, like, the best version of enjoyment of music, I do think the context helps.

Alex Pall 43:09 Absolutely, and I think, like, it's interesting because we're kinda like fighting against that with TikTok in many ways. Like, I think the way people are discovering music, which, you know, TikTok is a great tool for and platform for, is like, they just hear something that sounds catchy, and they're like, "I'm gonna make a video of this." Only recently did, like, Spotify create an integration where you can, like, click on the song that takes you to Spotify, so you can even see what this person looks like. You know what I mean?

Jack Altman 43:32 Mm.

Alex Pall 43:32 Or anything, and I think, like, that step is definitely missing the mark in a lot of cases for, like, younger listeners now, where they're not taking that extra. They're just like: "Oh, this is a cool song. I'm gonna..." You know, not even everything that goes viral on TikTok translates to streaming on the platform either. But I think, you know, those were some of my-- You know, that's why, like, music videos were so cool back in the day. 'Cause it was like, there they are, you know? Now everyone's so available. Everything's out there. Um, you know, we're all like: "Do we ca- do you even care? I just like the song," whatever. You know what I mean?

Jack Altman 44:00 Yeah.

Alex Pall 44:00 But, like, I think, like, the artists that have longevity force people to, like, ask those questions and kind of, like, seek them out a little further. 'Cause, like, you know, seeing what Justin Vernon's like as a human being, like, adds so much depth to his music.

Jack Altman 44:14 So much, yeah.

Alex Pall 44:14 Bruno Mars, same thing.

Jack Altman 44:15 Yeah.

Alex Pall 44:15 You're like, "This guy's-

Jack Altman 44:16 Absolutely

Alex Pall 44:16 ... great, good dancer."

Jack Altman 44:17 Yes. Yeah.

Alex Pall 44:17 You know, you wouldn't know that if you didn't [chuckles] see him out. He also has more-- He has more, uh, number one songs. Uh, like, his average of number one songs is, like, seven hundred percent or something. Like, like, seventy percent of the time, he has a number one song, which is like-- He's only released, like, seventy-five songs or something-

Jack Altman 44:32 Yeah

Alex Pall 44:32 ... eighty songs.

Jack Altman 44:32 Yeah.

Alex Pall 44:32 Which is, like, unbelievable statistics

Alex Pall 44:34 when you wrap your head around.

Jack Altman 44:34 One of the things that's so cool, and, you know, I don't-

Alex Pall 44:36 Yeah

Jack Altman 44:36 ... you know, I'm in San Francisco, in tech, and so I don't get to think about this as much. But, like, outlier talent-

Alex Pall 44:42 Yeah

Jack Altman 44:42 ... is r- it's really a cool thing.

Alex Pall 44:44 Yeah.

Jack Altman 44:44 That there are some people that are just that good at singing, that good at music, that good at, you know, entertainment. Like, it's, it's cool.

Alex Pall 44:50 Yeah, it's really cool.

Jack Altman 44:51 Yeah.

Alex Pall 44:51 And also, it's, like, really weird when you see someone working on-- having that talent, working on the wrong thing.

Jack Altman 44:56 Uh-huh.

Alex Pall 44:56 Or, like, it's, like, so talented that they can't even, like, channel it-

Jack Altman 44:59 Yeah

Alex Pall 44:59 ... correctly. Like, I had terrible ADHD growing up, and I was, like, a super average student until, like, tenth grade, and then I figured out, like, making lists organized my brain, and, like, it was just a function of, like: I can do everything. I just, like, wouldn't spend enough time... You know, like, and I loved the experience of crossing things off more than I, like, like, hated having to focus, and it just made me like a war machine of, like, getting shit done. And I think, like, that's-- When you find someone that's, like, doing the thing they're supposed to do-

Jack Altman 45:29 Yeah

Alex Pall 45:29 ... at the right time, it's, like, one of the greatest things ever.

Jack Altman 45:31 I feel like thirty years ago, thirty years ago, we, like, misunderstood ADHD as this, like, ailment, and it, like, turned out it's this superpower that just, like, needs, like, Cyclops glasses.

Alex Pall 45:39 Hundred percent!

Jack Altman 45:40 Yeah.

Alex Pall 45:40 I read a really interesting article the other day about, like, autism and how, like, uh, a lot of, like, our favorite apps today, uh, used by most of society, were created by people that, like, have some level of autism-

Jack Altman 45:50 For sure

Alex Pall 45:50 ... or Asperger's or something.

Jack Altman 45:51 Yeah.

Alex Pall 45:51 And that, like, they are by function, like, tools that, like, kind of, like, uh, like, aid someone that's, like, natural experience in public is, like, uncomfortable.

Jack Altman 46:01 Yeah.

Alex Pall 46:01 So, like, Facebook or Instagram or, uh, all these things, like, are ways to kind of like, like, create community but in, like, settings that are, like, more consumable and comfortable. And I was like, "That's a really interesting thought," that, like, we've all, like, you know, all the most powerful platforms [chuckles] were created by people that, like, wanted to create a platform-

Jack Altman 46:19 Totally

Alex Pall 46:19 ... that was, like, leaned more, uh-

Jack Altman 46:21 I mean, pe- people think of ADHD as, like, inability to focus.

Alex Pall 46:24 Yeah.

Jack Altman 46:24 And that's not what it is. It's disordered focus.

Alex Pall 46:27 Totally.

Jack Altman 46:27 And so it's just also, it comes with mega focus-

Alex Pall 46:29 Yeah, yeah

Jack Altman 46:30 ... when aimed correctly.

Alex Pall 46:31 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I, you know... Like, again, it's just, like, figuring out how to use those superpowers. That's, like, one of the biggest, I think, struggles that anyone has in life. Everyone has something they're inherently good at or have s- you know, overcome some experience. I know, like, uh, I think it was, like, Mike Moritz is, like, famous for asking for, like, "Like, what kind of trauma-

Jack Altman 46:46 Mm

Alex Pall 46:46 ... did you go through that's gonna give you some sort of edge or chip on your shoulder or, you know, drive that, like-

Jack Altman 46:51 Yeah

Alex Pall 46:51 ... will just help you succeed against everyone else?" I think everyone has those things. It's just, like, it's really hard to... It is hard to uncover what those things are, and even harder to figure out, like, where to direct that energy, even if you do. I think, like, every day, it's what motivates me because I'm like, "I never thought I'd be doing any of this stuff." So it's kind of like, "Let's keep going," you know?

Jack Altman 47:10 I was thinking it's where, like, self-awareness matters so much, and it's what lets you take advantage of your special attributes.

Alex Pall 47:16 Yeah.

Jack Altman 47:16 And I think a lot of people wanna be something that they're not, or they wanna do something that's not natural for them.

Jack Altman 47:22 And so maybe this is, like, a good, uh, segue into, like, your investing work-

Alex Pall 47:25 Yeah

Jack Altman 47:26 ... where, like, you've also now built a venture firm, and you're working really hard, very successfully at that.

Alex Pall 47:30 Yeah.

Jack Altman 47:31 And it's a really different job than your, than your music. And you and I were chatting before about, like, playing to your strengths and figuring out where you've got, you know, an unfair advantage and focusing your time there. So maybe just to, like, start on the investing side, like, how do you think about where you wanna be playing and where you should, like, focus Mantis?

Alex Pall 47:49 It's kind of an interesting approach in terms of that, like, we are not consumer investors. Like, I've in fact leaned into, like, spaces that, like, we probably, like, have the least amount of business being inv-

Jack Altman 47:59 Mm

Alex Pall 47:59 ... invested in. And I've listened to, like I said, every-- a lot of your episodes, and, like, every time I've finished listening to one, I'm like: What am I even do-- You know what I mean? Like, if this, this guy isn't my competitor by virtue of the-... way we've set up our firm, but like, wow! You know, like, I'm con-

Jack Altman 48:12 You mean that you've set up in order to, like, be able to participate with everybody?

Alex Pall 48:15 Yeah, like we-

Jack Altman 48:16 Yeah

Alex Pall 48:16 ... we want to be collaborative. Like, I want to learn from everyone around me. I want people to think of us as an, an, uh, an ally versus foe. I also think that's, like, was a big part of our success in music, was collaboration, so I think it's, like, a natural extension into venture. And, like, over time we'll absorb these best practices and-

Jack Altman 48:32 Yeah

Alex Pall 48:32 ... and be- hopefully become the great investors that, you know, I listen to on this show every week. But I think for us, you know, we wanted to lean into spaces, like, A, out of curiosity. Like, I was much more interested in investing in cybersecurity than I was in more consumer stuff. Similar with AI, similar with, uh, health tech, and, and deep and frontier technologies. I just thought, like, you know, if you're gonna... If it's already such a gamble, at least some gamble things that you care about and think are really interesting. I also thought that I was like, "Hey, this is like..." Like, there's tons of celebrities investing in soda companies. Like, there's very few investin in-

Jack Altman 49:03 Software

Alex Pall 49:03 ... software.

Jack Altman 49:04 Yeah.

Alex Pall 49:04 That is an advantage and disadvantage in itself. There's probably a reason why they're not doing that, 'cause it's really technical, really challenging, and, and also, like, what business do you have? Like, a lot of success that we hopefully will have is just, uh, you know, an outcome of the value we're able to add. So, like, the second that we invest in a company, and a founder's like, "They just didn't know shit. They didn't do shit. Like, that was just a real waste of cap space," uh, for me, like, we're dead in the water. So we definitely, like, took a risk doing this, but I think, you know, Drew and I are hustlers, and we're just like, "We're gonna figure it out." Like, we know... I have to believe that there's more things these companies need than what is currently available to them. And also, like, modern-day times are changing so fast. Like, the things... Like, you know, when did B2B creators now, or B2B, uh, you know, enterprise software founders, are like fucking creators-

Jack Altman 49:51 Yeah

Alex Pall 49:51 ... on X now. Like, they're making videos like they're Ma- like Log- Logan Paul does, and that's awesome. And so I knew that there was gonna be things that we could offer that would be helpful, and we wanted to make sure that it was, like, commiserate with, like, what we were asking for, you know?

Jack Altman 50:04 Totally.

Alex Pall 50:04 It's like, don't ask for fifteen percent if you don't feel like you're gonna add fifteen percent value to the company. And then, you know, the last piece was also just, like, the formation. Uh, and I, I say this a lot, but, like, you know, I wanna... You know, we've made so many great relationships over the course of our career, with all sorts of incredible people that are all, like, leaders of these res- just different areas, and to us it was like, "Well, why not go raise capital from them?" You know, turn them into allies of the fund, where we're using them for advice. We're, like, potentially leveraging the success of their platforms-

Jack Altman 50:32 Mm

Alex Pall 50:32 ... to drive value back in the in, into the companies we're investing in. And they're, like, we'll use them as our initial wedge, so that when someone's like, "Why are you investing? Why, what should I let you invest in this company?" It's like, " 'Cause I know you wanna talk to this guy, and this guy's one of our good friends, and I can make that, you know, happen for you." But once we're in the door, we'll, like, provide, you know, all sorts of value. And I always say, and I think it really summed up by this kind of analogy, it's just like we're trying to be the sixth man of the year on every championship team.

Jack Altman 50:55 [chuckles]

Alex Pall 50:55 Uh, you know, like, I'm not trying to be a starter right now. Like, I much... I think it's much cooler to come off the bench for a team that wins a ring than it is to be a starter on a team that's not even in the playoffs. And, you know, I think we stand to learn more by being a part of that process.

Jack Altman 51:08 What you mean by that, is you just wanna be in great companies, even if it's not, like, you led the round or something?

Alex Pall 51:12 Yes, that, but I think, like, the implications of, like, being alongside a founder that is building a great company. You get to see what greatness looks like. You know, you get to understand what are they doing that, like, I can take and hopefully replicate across other investments? And it's like, you know, you kind of are what you eat. Like, if you hang out with shitty people-

Jack Altman 51:30 Yeah

Alex Pall 51:30 ... you're gonna be a shitty person probably. You know what I mean? You know, like, if you got to play on the, you know, uh, what was it? Like, the two thousand and two Lakers or two thousand and one Lakers, like, with Kobe Bryant, like, you got to see this man, the way he practiced, the way he approached the sport, like, the intensity. You also got to see how Phil Jackson coached the team. And so for me, as, like, a new investor, it's like, that's a huge benefit, too. Like, obviously, the goal is to be a part of great companies so we generate big returns, but I think for us, it's also just an opportunity about learning from the best and seeing what that profile looks like-

Jack Altman 51:58 Yeah

Alex Pall 51:58 ... so that we can improve.

Jack Altman 52:00 Do the two worlds trade with each other in any way, or are you just trying to learn from them on, in the background? In other words, like, are you in any ways directly using, you know, one sort of network or one sort of special access point and the other? Or are you like, "Actually, that's, like, polluting the sanctity of each, and I'm gonna learn from both, but they're two different businesses?"

Alex Pall 52:19 Yeah. Let me start with, like, a story Jimmy Buffett told us, and we were fortunate enough to have an amazing lunch with him before he passed away. And for us, it was an opportunity to ask, like, an amazing musician about how he got so deeply involved in, like, the business side of his empire, which was, like, Margaritaville. And at the time, you know, he was towards the end of his life, and he was like, "I'm building retirement communities that are, like, for my fans. So if you're, like, eighty years old, but you don't wanna, you wanna... You don't wanna go to some shitty retirement home. You wanna go to the Margaritaville experience retirement home. Like, I'm always serving my fans and always thinking about, like, businesses that are, like, extensions of who I am."

Jack Altman 52:52 Mm.

Alex Pall 52:53 And so, you know, with venture, the more that we spoke to people, whether they're on the investing side or founder side or operating side, the more we felt comfortable about... Like, a lot of the things that made people great, you know, in those spaces were things that were inherently things that made us successful in, in, in music. But I think in music, similar to venture, like, music is a losing game. Like, most of the songs we put out do not go, unless you're Bruno Mars, do not go on to be successful. You know, or at least, like, the success that, you know, you would talk about in Rolling Stones or Billboard or something like that. But you do learn something very important from every song. You are building, you know, character and history and, and, and, and, you know, reps in the gym and pattern recognition, and I think investing's a lot like that. Like, everyone I spoke to, which was, like, hundreds of people, was like, "Most of your investments are gonna go to zero." And I was, like, well, I'm comfortable with that. You know what I mean? But, like, you have to, like, learn from that. You can't let it be, uh, you know, uh, uh, uh, like, it can't set you back in terms of, like, your next deal. You have to, like, immediately get back to the, you know, out there and, you know, stop looking at the scoreboard. Just keep your eyes on the field.

Jack Altman 53:53 Yeah.

Alex Pall 53:53 And I think that's, you know, something that's really important. And I also think just, like, in general, like, every time we put out a song, we have to, like, provide context to it. We have to create a story around it. We have to, like, reinvent ourselves and tell people, like, why you should pay attention to us to right now, and it's noisier than ever. And I think every company, whether you're in the enterprise B2B space or consumer side or-... have that same opportunity and, and hill to climb. And I think, you know, we can provide, like, a vantage point that is, like, very useful and helpful, I think, to founders, um, that's not, like, con-c- contrarian to what, like, the tier one Sequoia or, you know, whoever is offering. We just think that, like, we're the-- you want the Avengers on your cap table. You want someone that has, like, a unique perspective and point of view, that's looking at things differently but wants the same outcome. And I think, like, music and our experiences in that, and building our business there, and our brand, are, like, super relevant to, like, how we think about company-building.

Jack Altman 54:46 I'd be curious to hear your reflections on, like, how you experience, like, sort of, you know, elite circles in music and entertainment, and in tech and investing. You have real time with both.

Alex Pall 54:58 Yeah.

Jack Altman 54:58 I'd just be curious, like, how similar is it? Are there, like, some, like, fundamental differences?

Alex Pall 55:02 I feel more like... I don't know why. Like, I mean, we have, like, plenty of awesome friends in the entertainment space that are, you know, successful. But, like, it does feel like, uh, like either there's, like, secret groups that I don't know about where everyone's hanging out. Like, sometimes you see a wedding, and you're like, "Damn, like, so they all hang out?" Like, you know what I mean?

Jack Altman 55:17 Like, Hollywood elite.

Alex Pall 55:17 Yeah, yeah.

Jack Altman 55:18 Yeah.

Alex Pall 55:18 You're like, "What a cool-- I wish I was part of that group." [chuckles] I mean, Drew and I are just, like, we've always just kind of... Like, we love being social, but we're also just, like, so locked in on, like-

Jack Altman 55:26 You've got a lot to do.

Alex Pall 55:27 Yeah, we, well, we're just, like, like, we're, you know, we've never count-- No one lifted us up. You know what I mean? And we kind of have always felt like it's like, it's on our shoulders to, like, figure this out and make the music. And, like, if we're out gallivanting around or whatever-

Jack Altman 55:39 Networking with celebrities.

Alex Pall 55:40 Yeah, like, it's just, like, I don't know, it doesn't feel natural to us.

Jack Altman 55:43 Doesn't make music.

Alex Pall 55:44 Yeah, it doesn't make music. Um, you know, and I think there's, like, value in it. Like, going to Fashion Week is cool, like-

Jack Altman 55:49 Yeah

Alex Pall 55:49 ... if you love fashion. Drew loves fashion. Like, it's, you know, an amazing experience. Like, I don't care about it that much, you know?

Jack Altman 55:54 Totally.

Alex Pall 55:55 So I think we all seek out, like, things and interests that align with who our personalities are. But, like, I, honestly, like, [chuckles] I feel like we align with, like, the founder tech people world a lot more, uh, acutely, because we're just like, you know, let's, you know, like, put hours in the gym. And, like, the harder we throw, like, work through our, like our, you know, selves of these problems, the more we're resolved, we're gonna get out what we put in. And, you know, we, I feel like we have a kind of an imposter syndrome with, like, the Hollywood-

Jack Altman 56:22 Mm-hmm

Alex Pall 56:22 ... side of things. Like, I don't feel u- uniquely special. I feel great about myself, but I don't think, like, anyone should treat me, you know, differently-

Jack Altman 56:30 Yeah

Alex Pall 56:30 ... for the things we've done in the past. And it's like, I'm more just like, what have I done, you know, today?

Jack Altman 56:34 Yeah.

Alex Pall 56:34 Than I am, like, what I've done in the past. Um-

Jack Altman 56:36 Yeah. I mean, I always think celebrity is a very funny thing, 'cause it's like no matter how famous somebody is, like, they're still a regular person. They wake up, they, like, wash their face in the mirror.

Alex Pall 56:44 Yeah.

Jack Altman 56:44 And they're like-- And then they, like, look at me like, "Oh yeah, I'm George Clooney. I forgot." You know, there, there must be some experience like that for everybody.

Alex Pall 56:49 Absolutely. I mean, I think, like, you know, I'm like the most average... I mean, it's kind of a joke about us, where, like, any two white guys can kinda be [chuckles] The Chainsmokers.

Jack Altman 56:57 Yeah.

Alex Pall 56:57 And there's been plenty of-

Jack Altman 56:58 Yeah, but then you go around the world, and people are like, "Oh, I know who you are," and-

Alex Pall 57:00 Totally, and I'm so, like, grateful for that. Like, I don't think I'm like an ordinary, you know, person, but I, I think, like, to that end, like, you can't... I don't know. I just don't think that's, like, how you get... Like, I don't think, like, elitism and things like that-

Jack Altman 57:12 Yeah

Alex Pall 57:12 ... are, like, how you-- If we think we're, like, the greatest humans in the world, like, is our music gonna begin to feel like that? You know what I mean?

Jack Altman 57:19 Yeah.

Alex Pall 57:19 And, and reflect that, and, like, the relationships we have with people. And I think for us, it's, our brand has always been built on, like, acknowledging everyone in the room. Like, some of our superpowers are like, if you walk into a crowded space, we're gonna make you feel like you're the biggest VIP here, even if I've never met you before. And I think, like, that's how I want to be treated. I don't know, maybe it's, like, high school trauma or something, [chuckles] you know, of things. But, like, that to me, is, is more important than anything. And, like, you know, when we were coming up, our music, like, we didn't want to be, like, wearing big diamond chain. I could afford diamond chains and super fancy cars, but it was like, I don't-- That's not what we're about. Like, I wanted to, like, buy drinks for everyone at the bar.

Jack Altman 57:57 Yeah, and I think it can take you away from the art. I think in business, it can take you away from the good stuff there, too.

Alex Pall 58:04 Yeah.

Jack Altman 58:04 Like, I do just feel like when people get lost in, like, materiality and ego and status, it is one of the ways people can, like, lose themselves.

Alex Pall 58:11 Well, you see it on the founder side, too. Like, you know-

Jack Altman 58:13 Yes

Alex Pall 58:13 ... especially nowadays with, like, some of the rounds these kids are raising-

Jack Altman 58:15 Totally

Alex Pall 58:15 ... and secondaries they're allowing to take out-

Jack Altman 58:17 Yeah

Alex Pall 58:17 ... and the press surrounding them. And I've certainly been involved with some of those companies, and they're not bad people. It's, like, insecurities or things catching up to you-

Jack Altman 58:24 Yeah

Alex Pall 58:25 ... at, like, inopportune times-

Jack Altman 58:26 Yeah

Alex Pall 58:26 ... where you're, like, driving cars you probably shouldn't be driving yet.

Jack Altman 58:29 Yeah.

Alex Pall 58:29 Like, renting apartments or houses, or going out too often, because now, like, finally, people are inviting you places-

Jack Altman 58:35 Yeah

Alex Pall 58:35 ... and wanna talk about you. And it's like, don't lose sight of things. Now, you see it happen in LA with young artists all the time. It's like, they write a big song, they move to LA.

Jack Altman 58:42 Yeah.

Alex Pall 58:42 There are, like, girls that wanna take you out. You're going to clubs, playing your music, and then suddenly, you've been in the studio for one or two days.

Jack Altman 58:49 Yeah.

Alex Pall 58:49 And now there's a huge pressure on you-

Jack Altman 58:51 Yeah

Alex Pall 58:51 ... and you're not honestly really sure what you should be doing. And I think for us, we were just like, n- like, we're still living the dream, even though, you know, we're not going out every night. And, but we're like: This is what we wanted to do the whole time. Why are we not doing this-

Jack Altman 59:04 Yeah

Alex Pall 59:04 ... you know, right now? And I think, you know, balance is really important. I think, like, you know, that doesn't mean to say that you should, like, this nine-nine-six shit is the path to success. But, like, I don't blame anyone for having those things. Like, we're all kind of the s- circumstances of, like, a product of our environment. But it is a shame when you see it, and but I also always understand when people are going through that.

Jack Altman 59:24 Yeah, it's like, um, some- somebody recently said to me that I think stuck with me, that just, like, money and power, fame, like that whole sort of sphere of things, it doesn't necessarily corrupt, but it will definitely make more potent whatever natural inclinations you have.

Alex Pall 59:39 Totally.

Jack Altman 59:40 And obviously, everybody has, like, light and dark inclinations.

Alex Pall 59:42 So I, I forget who it was. Someone was, like, saying, like, I always ask someone, like, what is more important to them: like, money, power, or, like-

Jack Altman 59:48 Yeah

Alex Pall 59:49 ... fame.

Jack Altman 59:49 Uh-huh.

Alex Pall 59:50 And there's, like, a right a- You know what I mean? Like, the right answer is just, like, money.... [laughing] Am I lying? 'Cause, like, fame is like you're chasing something, like, egotistical, whereas, like, I don't know, and I, and I don't know if that's, like, a fair question to really-

Jack Altman 1:00:02 No, I think, I, I think understanding what drives people, a- and, you know, there's probably some other things in there. Some people just are, like, out of that whole game entirely-

Alex Pall 1:00:10 Yeah.

Jack Altman 1:00:10 -but I do think, you know, of those three different people are very driven by different ones.

Alex Pall 1:00:13 Totally. I mean, you see it, like, I mean, there's no-

Jack Altman 1:00:15 You know, I-

Alex Pall 1:00:16 -more relevant place to seeing this than going to somewhere like Saint Tropez in the summer, [chuckles] where it's like you have billionaires that, like, you know, can't get into a restaurant.

Jack Altman 1:00:23 Yeah.

Alex Pall 1:00:23 Just 'cause you're a billionaire doesn't mean-

Jack Altman 1:00:24 Totally

Alex Pall 1:00:24 ... you'll get, like, but then Elton John pulls up-

Jack Altman 1:00:26 Yeah

Alex Pall 1:00:26 ... who's also probably a billionaire.

Jack Altman 1:00:27 Yeah.

Alex Pall 1:00:27 You know, but he's Elton fucking John!

Jack Altman 1:00:28 Right.

Alex Pall 1:00:28 You know, he's getting that table. And so, like, we're all chasing access and relevancy, and I think, you know, in getting to know some of the artists we've worked with and just people that we've met over the course of our time, like, everyone is struggling with something. Everyone, it doesn't feel relevant enough. Everyone is like, you know, like, even Coldplay, I remember I was like: Dude, I, they sell out 10 Wembleys instantly.

Jack Altman 1:00:48 Right. Yeah.

Alex Pall 1:00:48 You know, that's like 600,000, 700,000 tickets, and, and he's just like, but he wants kids, you know, the next generation.

Jack Altman 1:00:54 Chris Martin seems uncorrupted, though, to me.

Alex Pall 1:00:56 I think everyone's corrupted on some level. I think he's definitely probably on the lower end spectrum of that. Like, he is a really principled person and, and, you know, and is just an amazing guy. But I think we're all still, no matter what you tell yourself, there's like... I don't care-

Jack Altman 1:01:09 Oh, yeah

Alex Pall 1:01:09 ... we tell the world one thing, but inside-

Jack Altman 1:01:11 Yeah

Alex Pall 1:01:11 ... there's something else really driving you, or, or keeping you up at night, and I know I feel it myself.

Jack Altman 1:01:16 Well, you're

Jack Altman 1:01:17 in an interesting spot because you've, you've done a lot, you're still young, you've got two very good businesses going, and you probably have, like, a busy decade ahead, where it's like, uh, you could, you could, you could go a lot of ways. Do you take it as it comes, or are you, like, uh, you've got a particular mission and a place you want to get everything?

Alex Pall 1:01:32 It's important. Like, Drew and I probably don't do this enough, where it's like you have a conversation about, like, "What do we want to do this year?" You know what I mean? Like, what do we hope to gain? Like, what is the next... Like, do we- are we both on the same page that we want to make and play music for the next five years? And you're like... And it's not, like, surprising, the answers we have, but it's, like, surprising that we haven't had-

Jack Altman 1:01:48 Yeah

Alex Pall 1:01:48 ... the conversations. You know, you also have to balance your, like, objectives with the reality of everything. Like, music is not a young man's game. Like, we both want to have families. Like, c- we definitely can't be t- we could tour as much as we want right now with kids, but, like, what kind of impact does it have on the kids, on your relationships with your wife? Like, these are all things you have to consider that you maybe don't necessarily have all the answers for right now. I was listening to the David Sandra podcast, and he was like, "I'm only, I only think 24 hours at a time." You know what I mean? And I was like, I don't know if that's a bad or good thing.

Jack Altman 1:02:15 I think it's good.

Alex Pall 1:02:16 Yeah, like, I think it's, that's, that's a, you know, important way to stay locked in and continue to prioritize the things that are important for you in the short term. But, like, you know, you have to, like, build- like, m- I don't, didn't expect Mantis to be a tier-one fund off the bat. You know what I mean? I knew it would take 10, 15, 20 years of hard work to get there. So you have to think on those timelines a little bit to get there, and understand that, like, you know, we were taking 50K allocations in fund one into great companies, 'cause, like, we understood that's where we sat.

Jack Altman 1:02:45 Yeah.

Alex Pall 1:02:45 And it was more important to be on that logo-

Jack Altman 1:02:47 Yeah

Alex Pall 1:02:47 ... than it was to, like, be outside. And I think in music, you know, similarly, like, where are we investing our time, in singles and albums? You know, is it on the sh- the show that's the most important thing? Is it, you know, actually pulling out of the market? I mean, we're so available. Like, if you want to see us, you can come see us in Vegas pretty much every weekend. Is that a bad thing? It's not a bad thing, but there's a trade-off.

Jack Altman 1:03:06 It's a thing, yeah.

Alex Pall 1:03:06 You know, it's a trade-off. And so, you know, I think it's just h- being aware of those things, having those conversations-

Jack Altman 1:03:12 Yeah

Alex Pall 1:03:12 ... um, are so critical. I'm lucky to have a partner where you can have, like... Even though we're not the same person, we have, we're very, more aligned than mor- most people are.

Jack Altman 1:03:19 It's incredibly lucky.

Alex Pall 1:03:20 Yeah, and you get to like, you know, s- he'll say things that I'm like, "Oh, that's... I wasn't really thinking about it in that context, but that is super relevant." But it scares the shit out of me. I mean, like, you know, my dad died, I think he was, like, 54, you know? So I'm, like, only f-

Jack Altman 1:03:32 Yeah.

Alex Pall 1:03:33 And he felt so old-

Jack Altman 1:03:34 Yeah

Alex Pall 1:03:34 ... like, mature to me.

Jack Altman 1:03:35 Mine was 67.

Alex Pall 1:03:36 Yeah, and it's just a weird context when you, like, put it in that perspective of, like, "Oh, my God, I'm already not far off this guy. Am I, like, better shape? Am I better l- look of se..., well, you know, [chuckles] better looking-

Jack Altman 1:03:45 [chuckles]

Alex Pall 1:03:45 ... more successful? Am I a bigger asshole?"

Jack Altman 1:03:47 Mm-hmm.

Alex Pall 1:03:47 "Like, will I have left, you know, an impact on the world on some, some level?" But, uh, but I think you c- you know, you can't lose your mind not being able to control the things you obviously can't control.

Jack Altman 1:03:58 Yeah.

Alex Pall 1:03:58 And, and just, like, have fun. I, I... That's something I think, like, Drew [chuckles] and I have been saying a lot lately, which is like, to me, like, momentum is just the most important thing with anything. And it doesn't necessarily mean, like, momentum in, like, our songs are streaming more, or making more money this year, or they... Like, momentum comes in all different shapes and sizes, and it's like, I wanna have fun when we make music in the studio, and we talk about planning a tour, or what our show looks like. You know, I wanna... When we're discussing deals, it's, like, a lot of it's not fun in the traditional sense-

Jack Altman 1:04:26 Mm

Alex Pall 1:04:26 ... but it's like, "Damn, we're, like, in here for this great deal!"

Jack Altman 1:04:29 Yeah.

Alex Pall 1:04:29 Like, "I can't believe we're, uh, you know, like, having these conversations with these people." And, and I think that, to me, is, like, what drives me. You know, it's just like, every day you're kind of like, a li- you know, a couple steps forward is, like, very meaningful when you zoom out in the long run. Um, and try not to get wrapped up in the, like, hysteria of like, "Damn, this song failed!"

Jack Altman 1:04:47 Yeah. [chuckles]

Alex Pall 1:04:47 You know?

Jack Altman 1:04:48 Keeping it something where you're happy to win, not just, like, sad to lose, I feel like is so important.

Alex Pall 1:04:52 100%. I mean, I told you about a deal I'm, like, freaking stressing out about right now, and, and I'm like, already in my head, I'm like, "This is probably gonna say z- no," you know, like, or zero. And I'm like, "And what does that- what would that make me feel like, and what does that mean for the future? And like, do I want to help this person anymore after this?"

Jack Altman 1:05:07 Mm-hmm.

Alex Pall 1:05:07 Like, you know, what kind of... And I'm just like, "No, of course I'm gonna fucking help this person, and of course I'm gonna be bummed out, and of course I'm gonna try again the next time." And you know, but like, also, you know, this guy's answering my text every time I answer him. He's not, you know, there's... He could just be like, "No," you know? [laughing] Like-

Jack Altman 1:05:24 Totally.

Alex Pall 1:05:24 ... and so, you know, you kind of, I'm an optimist in that sense, where it's like, uh, you know, it could be a lot, a lot worse.

Jack Altman 1:05:30 It's an awesome mindset.

Alex Pall 1:05:31 Yeah.

Jack Altman 1:05:31 Alex, this is great. I'm gonna let you get back to your day. Thanks a ton for doing this with me.

Alex Pall 1:05:34 Let's go!

Jack Altman 1:05:34 All right.

Alex Pall 1:05:35 Hell, yeah. [upbeat music]

Jack Altman 1:05:40 [traffic humming] They're watching us.

Alex Pall 1:05:42 Yeah. [laughing] This guy's just fucking zipping around.

Jack Altman 1:05:44 He's just trying to watch us-

Alex Pall 1:05:44 Yeah. [laughing] Yeah, yeah.

Jack Altman 1:05:46 We'll post in a couple weeks.

Alex Pall 1:05:47 Yeah, yeah.

Jack Altman 1:05:48 Just-

Alex Pall 1:05:48 Dude, I had no idea you had fans like this.

Jack Altman 1:05:49 Yeah, it's crazy.

Alex Pall 1:05:50 Yeah, yeah. [laughing]

Jack Altman 1:05:52 [laughing]