The Chainsmokers: Stories Behind the Songs, AI’s Impact on Music, and Venture Investing | Ep. 30

1. 0:00 – 1:04

   Intro

   1. APAlex Pall0:00

      Let me start with, like, a story Jimmy Buffett told us. And we were fortunate enough to have an amazing lunch with him before he passed away, and for us, it was an opportunity to ask, like, an amazing musician about how he got so deeply involved in, like, the business side of his empire, which was, like, Margaritaville. And at the time, you know, he was towards the end of his life, and he was like: I'm building retirement communities that are, like, for my fans. So if you're, like, eighty years old, but you don't wanna, you wanna, you don't wanna go to some shitty retirement home, you wanna go to the Margaritaville experience retirement home. Like, I'm always serving my fans, and always thinking about, like, businesses that are, like, extensions of who I am.

   2. JAJack Altman0:32

      Mm.

   3. APAlex Pall0:33

      And so, you know, with venture, the more that we spoke to people, whether they're on the investing side, or founder side, or operating side, the more we felt comfortable about, like, a lot of the things that made people great, you know, in those spaces, were things that were inherently things that made us successful in, in, in music. [upbeat music]

   4. JAJack Altman0:48

      Alex, I am incredibly excited to be here with you today. I've been looking forward to this, and-

   5. APAlex Pall0:52

      Same!

   6. JAJack Altman0:52

      ... I know you're really busy, and I, uh, you're juggling two whole businesses, which I'm excited to talk to you about. So thank you for making time for this.

   7. APAlex Pall0:57

      Yeah, this is stoked. I'm a big, big fan. I was, I was saying earlier, I've listened to literally every episode except for the last one yet.

   8. JAJack Altman1:03

      Means a lot.

2. 1:04 – 4:58

   Stories behind the songs

   1. APAlex Pall1:04

      Yeah.

   2. JAJack Altman1:04

      I, um, I wanna start with music, and I love music. I'm obviously, like, mega amateur about it, but I've been a huge fan of your music for a long time, and I always think it's really interesting to learn about the creation of songs.

   3. APAlex Pall1:15

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JAJack Altman1:16

      I, like, love watching some of my, like, favorite artists talk on YouTube about, like, how songs came together.

   5. APAlex Pall1:21

      Yeah.

   6. JAJack Altman1:21

      And so I wanna just, like, go through a couple of, like, my favorite songs of yours-

   7. APAlex Pall1:23

      Yeah, let's do it

   8. JAJack Altman1:24

      ... and just, like, hear about, like-

   9. APAlex Pall1:25

      By the way, I, we just did, like, a photo shoot yesterday, and with this amazing creative director, Aidan. And he's shot, like, so many of, like, the creative campaigns around, like, all of these artists that, you know, I'm a huge fan of, and, you know, fashion stuff. And it's so funny talking to him, 'cause he gives you this, like... They give you, like, this unfiltered perspective-

   10. JAJack Altman1:42

       Yeah

   11. APAlex Pall1:42

       ... where you're like, "Wow, that photo turned out really good." And you're like, "There was a zebra on set." You know what I mean?

   12. JAJack Altman1:47

       Right.

   13. APAlex Pall1:47

       "And the zebra almost killed Travis Scott."

   14. JAJack Altman1:49

       Yeah, totally.

   15. APAlex Pall1:49

       And then you're like, "Whoa! Like, you should start a show that just talks about this stuff."

   16. JAJack Altman1:53

       Well, it's-

   17. APAlex Pall1:53

       Yeah

   18. JAJack Altman1:53

       ... so foreign to people. I mean, like, 'cause, you know, you hear a song that's, like, just, like, a premium-

   19. APAlex Pall1:58

       Yeah

   20. JAJack Altman1:59

       ... song, and you're just like, "How the hell did this happen?"

   21. APAlex Pall2:01

       Totally.

   22. JAJack Altman2:01

       Like, what goes into it? And for most people, you just don't even understand what the process is.

   23. APAlex Pall2:04

       And I, I don't think there's, like, a single song in existence that doesn't have, like, an insane story. Even if it starts out in one day, and it's done in one day-

   24. JAJack Altman2:12

       Yeah

   25. APAlex Pall2:12

       ... there's, like, eight months that proce- you know, precede it, that are, like, insane.

   26. JAJack Altman2:16

       Which actually makes me wonder, like-

   27. APAlex Pall2:18

       Yeah

   28. JAJack Altman2:18

       ... on that point, before we go into songs, like, can you create a great song formulaically, or does it, like, does it need a story?

   29. APAlex Pall2:24

       I don't know if it needs, like, a story all the time. Sometimes, like, like, lately, Drew and I have just making, been making songs where we're just like, "I love this. It just feels good." I don't... Like, I'm not thinking about, you know, the narrative of the song so much or the context. It's just like, "I love these lyrics. I love what, how they feel to me." But it's not, like, rooted in some, like, personal story necessarily. But I do think, like, the creative process is not ever formulaic. You know, like, the songs never start in the same place or the same way. I think there's, like, creative things you can keep in mind, like how you go into a session, and the best ways that you feel like you can get to some level of creativity.

   30. JAJack Altman3:00

       Yeah.
3. 4:58 – 9:57

   Coldplay collaboration

   1. APAlex Pall4:58

      are awesome. [laughing]

   2. JAJack Altman4:58

      Yeah. So how did that song happen?

   3. APAlex Pall5:00

      Um, okay, so there's, like, a few th- parts to it. So, you know, we've been fans of Coldplay forever. I think most electronic art- artists would say that, like, a Coldplay collaboration is, like, top three ar- you know, artists they would wanna work with, for so many reasons, 'cause their music kind of lends itself to this, like, electronic energy. Uh, his vocals are obviously just incredible, and the band's just iconic. And so, you know, they were always on our, like, hey, you know, they, "We wanna get in the studio." We're so down, and they were, like, not down, you know, down, I think, for most of the time. And then our, our manager had reached out, and I think they were like, "Yeah, we'll float it to Chris," or something. But then I think before a show one day, they were, like, listening to Closer backstage, and Chris, I don't know, or the band was like, "This is good."

   4. JAJack Altman5:41

      "This is good." [chuckles]

   5. APAlex Pall5:41

      "You know, this is interesting. Like, I would get... I'm down to get in the studio." I don't think they realized we had already asked. And so, like, last... You know, literally get a call from their manager, Dave, I'm not sure if he still works with them, and it was just like, "Chris is gonna be in ca- you know, LA, uh, next Tuesday," or something. Like, "Wants to get in the studio. The guy's down." And we were like, "I will drop-... just, you, we'll fly to Antarctica if that's what it takes to do this. Went to the studio, uh, I think it's called The Woodshed-

   6. JAJack Altman6:05

      Mm.

   7. APAlex Pall6:05

      -in Malibu, which is a beautiful studio, way nicer than any studio we've ever worked in. You know, got there at, like, three PM or something like that, and I think we sat there for, like, two hours alone with his, like, audio engineer. But we were, a- and we're just kinda like waiting. We're like, "I don't even wanna touch anything. What do we do? Should we start working on our own stuff? Should we, like, get ahead of this song?" And then he just walks in, and it's like, you know, there's only a few people on the planet that I feel like would, like, have that gravity when they walk in, and he just, like, comes in like a tornado of energy, and, and just was like, "Hey, guys," you know, "What are you working on? Never break up. This is how song... " You know, and you're just like, "Hold mic."

   8. JAJack Altman6:38

      Wow!

   9. APAlex Pall6:38

      Yeah, this is insane. And funny enough, like, we sat there probably for, like, four hours, you know, trying different things out, kind of like false starts. I think that's, like, a big part of the creative pro-

   10. JAJack Altman6:47

       Like, the three of you, basically, or-

   11. APAlex Pall6:48

       Yeah, it's three of us-

   12. JAJack Altman6:49

       Yeah. Uh-huh

   13. APAlex Pall6:49

       ... and then, and his sound engineer-

   14. JAJack Altman6:51

       Yeah

   15. APAlex Pall6:51

       ... who's, like, I think being with him. Bill, he's been with him forever. Shout-out to Bill.

   16. JAJack Altman6:54

       Probably amazing.

   17. APAlex Pall6:54

       Yeah, he's a great guy, and he just, like... I think, again, it's like, sometimes being in the studio is like having a presence without, like, interrupting anything, and Bill is great at that. And, uh, and, you know, we're just, like, throwing chords out, and lyrics out, and different s- little ideas, and nothing's really sticking. You know, it's like we kinda, like, get started on a melody, and it's like, "Ah," you know, like, "Well, let's move on." And then eventually, he's like, "I gotta go put my kids to sleep, pick 'em..." You know, and we're like, "God, that's it." You know what I mean?

   18. JAJack Altman7:21

       Yeah.

   19. APAlex Pall7:21

       You're like, "We're done here."

   20. JAJack Altman7:22

       Yeah.

   21. APAlex Pall7:22

       Like, he's not gonna come back.

   22. JAJack Altman7:23

       Mm-hmm.

   23. APAlex Pall7:24

       And that sucks. You know, that was our shot at a Coldplay song. And so he leaves, leaves for, like, three hours, and but he's told us he would come back.

   24. JAJack Altman7:31

       Right.

   25. APAlex Pall7:31

       And we're just kinda like, "Is he gonna come back or not?"

   26. JAJack Altman7:33

       He's hanging out there.

   27. APAlex Pall7:34

       And we were going through, like, stuff. We're like, "We've gotta find something or do something that, like, when he comes back..." And we found these, like, chords that became Something Just Like This, and we were like, "This feels interesting in the context of, like-

   28. JAJack Altman7:45

       Yeah

   29. APAlex Pall7:45

       ... what a Coldplay/Chainsmokers song might sound like."

   30. JAJack Altman7:47

       Yeah.
4. 9:57 – 13:25

   Creating Closer

   1. JAJack Altman9:57

      mentioned Closer during that, which is another really great-

   2. APAlex Pall9:59

      Mm

   3. JAJack Altman9:59

      ... collaboration. How'd that one happen?

   4. APAlex Pall10:01

      That one's a really crazy one. Um, so we were in tour in Illinois on our Friend Zone Tour, which was, like, one of our first bus tours ever.

   5. JAJack Altman10:09

      Yeah.

   6. APAlex Pall10:10

      Uh-

   7. JAJack Altman10:10

      This is when, like, 20...?

   8. APAlex Pall10:11

      This is probably, like, 2015-

   9. JAJack Altman10:14

      15

   10. APAlex Pall10:14

       ... or something like that.

   11. JAJack Altman10:15

       Yeah.

   12. APAlex Pall10:15

       And on this tour, there's this great artist who's still around, Lewis The Child. And after every show, we'd set up, like, a s- really shitty, uh, production room in the back of our tour bus. So we'd be, like, kinda drunk and tipsy or whatever, and we'd, like, go, you know, what... After the show, everyone would, like, pile into the bus and kind of, like, blast music and dance. And in the back, people were always, like, we would be, like, writing songs, producing things, and we hadn't really, like... We, well, Lewis The Child was on, like, three or four shows with us, and we were big fans of theirs, and we were like, "Let's, you know, let's get in the back and then, like, work on something." And Drew had a pa- you know, like, hi- essentially, like, this song had been, like, floating around in his head for, like, two or three years. He had these chords that his hands, you know, as he would say, like, always just landed on the piano.

   13. JAJack Altman10:55

       Mm.

   14. APAlex Pall10:56

       And I think any piano player says that, like, you kinda like, there's just, like, certain chords-

   15. JAJack Altman10:59

       Yeah

   16. APAlex Pall11:00

       ... your hands just, like, gravitate to-

   17. JAJack Altman11:01

       Yeah

   18. APAlex Pall11:01

       ... when you sit down. And they were the Closer chords, and he kind of had this, like, loose idea of, uh, lyrically of a song, but, like, didn't really have, functionally have, like, any idea of how to, like, build it out into, like, the full track that you know it is today. And so, you know, in this back of this bus, on, like, you know, at, like, 2:00 AM, Lewis The Child and all of us are just kind of, like, jamming, and they came up with, like, a lot of, like, some of the electronic line, 'cause it was much more, like, I don't wanna say acoustic, but, like, ballady at this point in time.

   19. JAJack Altman11:29

       Mm.

   20. APAlex Pall11:29

       And, and they were really good at kind of this, like, I don't know, like, bouncy electro style. And, and, and, like, a bunch of the song, like, I would say, like, half the song kinda came out in the back of that bus, and we were all like, "This is cool," like, "I really like this." But, like, tipsy, it's late-

   21. JAJack Altman11:44

       Yeah

   22. APAlex Pall11:44

       ... you're just kinda like, "Cool, I don't know." And then the next day, I think we were in Utah or something, we're like, "Let's play that thing from last night." And there's, like, a bunch of random friends from the area on the bus, and they're just like, "What the fuck is that song?" You know what I mean? And we're like, "Oh, you like it?" They're like, "Play it again."

   23. JAJack Altman11:58

       Yeah.

   24. APAlex Pall11:58

       And we, like, played it, like, 25 times.

   25. JAJack Altman12:01

       In the same format, and you didn't change it at all from the tipsy night?

   26. APAlex Pall12:03

       Yeah, really didn't change it-

   27. JAJack Altman12:04

       Yeah

   28. APAlex Pall12:04

       ... from the, from the night before.

   29. JAJack Altman12:06

       Yeah.

   30. APAlex Pall12:06

       And we were just like, "Oh-
5. 13:25 – 18:09

   Dependencies vs creative fuel

   1. APAlex Pall13:25

      things like that.

   2. JAJack Altman13:25

      I'm curious what the... And this is kind of a funny question, but like-

   3. APAlex Pall13:28

      Yeah

   4. JAJack Altman13:28

      ... what the, uh, impact of, like, drinking or drugs can have on creativity. I feel like, um, in, like, tech circles-

   5. APAlex Pall13:37

      Mm

   6. JAJack Altman13:37

      ... a lot of the world though, there's lately been this real push towards no drinking, no drugs-

   7. APAlex Pall13:42

      Yeah

   8. JAJack Altman13:42

      ... like, a very sanitized physiology.

   9. APAlex Pall13:45

      Totally.

   10. JAJack Altman13:45

       Which I'm all for.

   11. APAlex Pall13:46

       Yeah, yeah.

   12. JAJack Altman13:46

       Like, I love going to bed early.

   13. APAlex Pall13:47

       Yeah.

   14. JAJack Altman13:48

       I love feeling good. I just also, of course, know that a lot of creative people, I think both actually in tech, in music, in other fields-

   15. APAlex Pall13:55

       Mm.

   16. JAJack Altman13:55

       ... like, I do think that, like, alcohol and drugs play some role for a lot of people.

   17. APAlex Pall13:59

       100%. I mean, I think it's, like, you know, can obviously loosen your inhibitions and kind of, like, lead you on a path of coming up with ideas or doing things that you... Like, him singing-

   18. JAJack Altman14:08

       Yeah

   19. APAlex Pall14:08

       ... might have, like, been a result of, like, having a few beers that night, where he was like, "Fuck it, I'll do it." You know what I mean?

   20. JAJack Altman14:13

       Yeah.

   21. APAlex Pall14:13

       Like, "I don't care if anyone's around me thinking that, like, my voice sucks."

   22. JAJack Altman14:16

       Yeah.

   23. APAlex Pall14:16

       "I'm just gonna do it." I think it was, like, a double-edged sword. I mean, I totally agree with you. I think, like, I mean, you know, Drew's, like, the epitome of health now. I think, like, we've both been very conscious over our career of, like, "Maybe we need to tone this down a little bit." We've never... I've, like, I've actually never, uh... L- My fun fact is I've never done coke ever in my life-

   24. JAJack Altman14:32

       Mm

   25. APAlex Pall14:32

       ... which surprises a lot of [chuckles] people.

   26. JAJack Altman14:34

       Yeah.

   27. APAlex Pall14:34

       We're in Vegas a lot. We played, you know, sometimes, like, you know, four or five weeks of shows in a row. Drugs and alcohol are a big part of, like, music culture historically.

   28. JAJack Altman14:44

       Yeah.

   29. APAlex Pall14:44

       And, and I think that, you know, there's an obvious reason why. You know, you're dancing, you're having fun, you're partying, those, you know, the associations of that. But-

   30. JAJack Altman14:51

       I think part of art even. Like, I think a lot of, like, writers and-
6. 18:09 – 19:45

   Letting songs be promiscuous

   1. APAlex Pall18:09

      like, there's something changes when a song becomes, like, promiscuous. You know? [chuckles]

   2. JAJack Altman18:13

      Yeah.

   3. APAlex Pall18:13

      And, and it's, like, listened to too m- too many people before it's done, or too many opinions have weighed in on what people think the song should-

   4. JAJack Altman18:21

      It, like, smooths out the good edges.

   5. APAlex Pall18:22

      Yeah, exactly, and it's just, like, something, m- the magic just kind of, like, eroded away.

   6. JAJack Altman18:27

      Mm.

   7. APAlex Pall18:27

      And, uh, and I think he's totally true, and I think, like, I'm always like, "Let's not show anybody this thing," or, like, outside of really, like, "Oh, hey-

   8. JAJack Altman18:35

      Especially when you know it's good. You know, I think about this a lot. This happens in, in-... This actually happens for me in investing. It happens in other areas of life, too, where you're uncertain, you're uncertain, you know, and you're asking for a lot of opinions, and then every once in a while, there's a thing that you're positive is good.

   9. APAlex Pall18:49

      Yeah.

   10. JAJack Altman18:49

       And you don't need to ask anybody's opinion, and you just do that thing.

   11. APAlex Pall18:52

       I totally agree.

   12. JAJack Altman18:53

       And you're like, "I know this is right."

   13. APAlex Pall18:54

       You have to, like, trust your gut-

   14. JAJack Altman18:56

       Yeah

   15. APAlex Pall18:56

       ... at, at the end of the day. Like, I'm a huge intuition, gut guy.

   16. JAJack Altman18:59

       Yeah.

   17. APAlex Pall18:59

       And that's why I lo- I'm happy to have Drew as a partner, 'cause we kind of like-

   18. JAJack Altman19:02

       Yeah

   19. APAlex Pall19:03

       ... iron sharpens iron, is kind of like how we think about it. But at the same time, like, it's so easy to get talked out of something awesome. You know what I mean? And, and, like, you know, people don't always have the same context. Everyone's coming with their own, uh, you know, uh, like, experiences that are shaping the way they're thinking about something. So you might be like, "Hey, I love this, you know, idea, nuclear. It's great." And they'll be like, "This guy's, like, never gonna work." And it's like, "Well, is that 'cause you lost twenty million dollars in, like-

   20. JAJack Altman19:29

       Yeah

   21. APAlex Pall19:29

       ... the last era of nuclear? Or are you actually looking at this with, like, a fresh eye that's not, like, tainted by any past experience?"

   22. JAJack Altman19:36

       Yeah.

   23. APAlex Pall19:36

       And I don't think anyone could say they're not, in some way, shape, or form, ex-, uh, you know, the, uh, you know, outcome of all of their experiences, sum of all their experiences.

7. 19:45 – 22:57

   How “Don’t Let Me Down” happened

   1. JAJack Altman19:45

      Just 'cause I love these song stories-

   2. APAlex Pall19:46

      Yeah

   3. JAJack Altman19:46

      ... if we could do one more, Don't Let Me Down is another one of my favorites. Can you tell me how that came together?

   4. APAlex Pall19:50

      Yeah, and it's funny, because I, like, wasn't in the room when this song was written. It was a, a heartbreaking thing. I think I had, like, a doctor's appointment or something stupid, [chuckles] uh, that day. And so Drew and I, we were in New York. We lived next door to each other on 23rd Street, and we did this session with, uh, Scott Harris and Emily Warren, Emly- both amazing writers. W- Emily's been, like, is, like, one of our closest friends now. I remember they came in and wrote... You know, they were inspired by, uh, kind of like the XX, the band that's their headlin- I think they're headlining Coachella, or close to it this year.

   5. JAJack Altman20:20

      Yeah, they're very-

   6. APAlex Pall20:20

      Incredible band.

   7. JAJack Altman20:21

      Yes.

   8. APAlex Pall20:21

      And they just have these incredible guitar riffs, and they wanted d- Dr- and at the same time, Drew had just been challenged by his girlfriend to make a trap song. Uh-

   9. JAJack Altman20:28

      Yeah

   10. APAlex Pall20:28

       ... his girlfriend at the time. Now, uh, she was just, like, really into, like, Yellow Claw and trap artists, and he was like, "I can, I can make this."

   11. JAJack Altman20:34

       I can-

   12. APAlex Pall20:34

       You know what I mean? Like, uh, and so-

   13. JAJack Altman20:36

       That's funny

   14. APAlex Pall20:36

       ... he was like, "But I want to combine, like, our indie approach. I love the XX. I love tr- you know, uh, you know, I do like trap. I just haven't made any of it." And, you know, I remember, like, getting there after everyone left, and he was like: "So we wrote this today." And I was like, "Good God!" You know what I mean? I was like, "What the hell?" Like, it wasn't fully flushed out-

   15. JAJack Altman20:56

       Yeah

   16. APAlex Pall20:56

       ... but it was, like, pretty-

   17. JAJack Altman20:56

       It was good?

   18. APAlex Pall20:57

       Pretty damn good.

   19. JAJack Altman20:58

       Yeah. [chuckles]

   20. APAlex Pall20:58

       I don't think he had the drop yet, but it was, like, coming together, and, uh, and I was like, "What, what's it about?" And he was like, "Well, it's- Emily wrote it about, uh, being lost at Coachella on drugs." And so [laughing] and, and, like, you're supposed to meet up with friends-

   21. JAJack Altman21:12

       Yeah

   22. APAlex Pall21:12

       ... but, like, that you can't find them, and you're like, "Don't let me down." [laughing]

   23. JAJack Altman21:15

       That's funny.

   24. APAlex Pall21:15

       And I was like, "This is a, you know, really a, this is a really good song." And then we, like, had a flight later that night, and when we landed, Drew was like, "I think I got the drop." And I was like-

   25. JAJack Altman21:23

       Yeah, it-

   26. APAlex Pall21:23

       ... and so it was, like, kind of a weird song for me, 'cause I was like, I really didn't [chuckles] have much of a hand in it at all.

   27. JAJack Altman21:28

       [music] We're gonna stitch that drop in here, 'cause I just played it in my head.

   28. APAlex Pall21:31

       Yeah, yeah.

   29. JAJack Altman21:31

       It's so good.

   30. APAlex Pall21:31

       And, and then, like, you know, and then I'm like, but I get to, you know, reap all of these amazing rewards for it. And obviously, we f- we didn't have Deja on the song at the time. We didn't have the f- the finale. So a bunch of things, like, I, you know, did get to participate in, but, like, truly, I mean, that was a Drew, Emily, Scott special.
8. 22:57 – 26:18

   Art vs playing the favorites

   1. APAlex Pall22:57

      forever?

   2. JAJack Altman22:57

      Actually, this makes me wonder: if you had to go back and recreate, like, you know, similar versions of your existing songs right now-

   3. APAlex Pall23:05

      Yeah

   4. JAJack Altman23:05

      ... and be, like, make it sound mostly the same, but, like, y- you know, see if you can improve it.

   5. APAlex Pall23:09

      Yeah, yeah.

   6. JAJack Altman23:09

      Do you think you could? Like, could you go make Paris a little better if you just, like, spent a week on it?

   7. APAlex Pall23:13

      I think, like, ch- we've said in the past that, like, Don't Let Me Down and, uh, maybe Sick Boy are, like, the only two songs we've ever, like, finished, that we were like, "Those are done." You know what I mean?

   8. JAJack Altman23:22

      Yeah. I don't know how to make this better.

   9. APAlex Pall23:23

      Like, like, that is it. Every other song, there's, like, something you would turn down-

   10. JAJack Altman23:27

       Closer, you listen to it, and you're like, "I could change that to make it better?"

   11. APAlex Pall23:29

       ... Turning something down, turning something up.

   12. JAJack Altman23:31

       Uh-huh.

   13. APAlex Pall23:31

       You know what I mean? Like, just little, you know, like, tonally, things you might sing a little differently. Nothing significant, you know what I mean? But, like, just, like-

   14. JAJack Altman23:39

       Do you do that? So when you play songs, like, live, do you improve them years after you've released them, and then the live version that you play is, like, you stick with an improvement?

   15. APAlex Pall23:48

       I think, like, for us, like, yes, I think part of it is, like, DJ culture, of just, like, we want to surprise people. We want people to-... hear the song that they love and know, but, like, surprise them with s- a bigger drop-

   16. JAJack Altman24:00

       Mm-hmm

   17. APAlex Pall24:00

       ... or something that, you know, just leans into, like, the experience we're trying to create at the show a little more, without, like, ruining the, the actual- You know, nothing's worse than being like, "Oh, that's my favorite song. What the hell is this ver-," you know [chuckles] like, verse you're just playing?

   18. JAJack Altman24:12

       I, um, years ago I went to a show of yours in Las Vegas, daytime.

   19. APAlex Pall24:16

       Yeah.

   20. JAJack Altman24:16

       And I was just like, this is, like, the most unbelievable energy ever.

   21. APAlex Pall24:19

       Yeah, it's fun there. It's fun there.

   22. JAJack Altman24:20

       It's a crazy energy.

   23. APAlex Pall24:21

       It's fun there.

   24. JAJack Altman24:21

       And it's gotta be so f- I can't even imagine what it feels like for you. I mean, I, I know anything... We all get used to anything-

   25. APAlex Pall24:26

       Yeah

   26. JAJack Altman24:26

       ... and so I'm sure after you've done it enough-

   27. APAlex Pall24:28

       Every experience is unique and different, 'cause everyone in Vegas is, like, trying to have the best time of their life, which makes that experience really fun for us. But, like-

   28. JAJack Altman24:35

       'Cause you're just like, "I'm trying to help this huge group of people just have, like, the best day of their lives."

   29. APAlex Pall24:38

       That's what you gotta remember.

   30. JAJack Altman24:39

       Yeah.
9. 26:18 – 29:49

   Balancing music and business

   1. JAJack Altman26:18

      You have this really rare trait, which is that you are both an artist and a real business person. Even listening to the way you've talked about, like, songs and music-

   2. APAlex Pall26:26

      Mm

   3. JAJack Altman26:26

      ... you know, part of it is, like, you gotta go internal, make your own thing, not listen to anybody. Like, screw what other people think.

   4. APAlex Pall26:32

      Yeah.

   5. JAJack Altman26:32

      Which is, to me, like, the epitome of an artist.

   6. APAlex Pall26:34

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JAJack Altman26:35

      And then you're also like, "Give people what they want, and we're here to, like, deliver, like, an experience for people, and, you know, listen to them and get their feedback."

   8. APAlex Pall26:42

      Yeah.

   9. JAJack Altman26:42

      Which is, like, the epitome of, like, a business person, and you're both.

   10. APAlex Pall26:44

       Yeah, we're... It's a- we're tormented inside.

   11. JAJack Altman26:47

       Even the fact that you spend half your time in, you know, as, as an investor, half your time as an artist-

   12. APAlex Pall26:51

       Mm-hmm

   13. JAJack Altman26:51

       ... you know, that mix-up, I think, is uncommon.

   14. APAlex Pall26:54

       It's, it's awesome. I mean, I think, like, for us, you know, when Drew and I met, I guess it's, like, almost 14 years ago now, like, from the very first hang, uh, you know, it was pretty clear to us that we both had re- really big ambitions, but we were very aligned in how we wanted to achieve them. Like, it wasn't like there was gonna be some shortcut to success. We were like, "We're both willing to put in the work and the hours, whatever it takes, to kind of get where we want to go." But I think, like, the unique part... I mean, this was a crazy first meeting. I mean, first we were like: "Do you like Calvin Harris?" You know? [chuckles] And it was like, "Yeah, I like Calvin Harris." It was like, "Cool, what else? What else do we have in common?" But then quickly it was, like, our love for dance music, our background tastes in music, and things we listened to. You know, entrepreneurial endeavors that we h- had throughout our, our youths, that we didn't know each other. And then, like, we kind of, like, we're like, "All right, let's do this." But also, like, when we are successful in, in building The Chainsmokers, like, let's only use that as, like, the stepping stone to, like, building a bigger platform of opportunity and entrepreneurial efforts. We had no idea what those things were, but we were like, from the get-go, we were both like, "It's not just gonna stop here."

   15. JAJack Altman27:51

       Yeah.

   16. APAlex Pall27:52

       And I think for us, you know, you know, Drew used to sell Timberlands that he bought locally in China.

   17. JAJack Altman27:58

       You guys were always entrepreneurs.

   18. APAlex Pall27:59

       Always doing stuff, and trying to, you know, find ways to be creative and clever in business.

   19. JAJack Altman28:03

       Mm.

   20. APAlex Pall28:03

       And I think, you know, music is such a, like, certain part of your brain and personality-

   21. JAJack Altman28:08

       Yeah

   22. APAlex Pall28:08

       ... that, like, I do think part of us was, like, yearning also for something that was, like, a little bit more tangible and-

   23. JAJack Altman28:14

       Yeah

   24. APAlex Pall28:14

       ... analytical, and com- I don't wanna say, music's not competitive, but business is definitely a different type of competition or way of thinking about it.

   25. JAJack Altman28:21

       Yeah.

   26. APAlex Pall28:21

       You know, for us, we had started a tequila company, we had a TV and production company, and venture was kind of the last-

   27. JAJack Altman28:27

       Fashion

   28. APAlex Pall28:27

       ... most recent thing-

   29. JAJack Altman28:28

       Yeah

   30. APAlex Pall28:28

       ... fashion, for us. And honestly, I didn't f- know what it was. You know, like-
10. 29:49 – 35:42

    Albums telling stories

    1. JAJack Altman29:49

       how you think about: Last year, I got into, like, hi-fi audio.

    2. APAlex Pall29:52

       Mm.

    3. JAJack Altman29:52

       It was just like, I've always loved music.

    4. APAlex Pall29:53

       Yeah.

    5. JAJack Altman29:53

       I played music a lot as a kid growing up, uh-... And I love listening to music, and I started listening to albums.

    6. APAlex Pall29:59

       Mm-hmm.

    7. JAJack Altman29:59

       I find the experience of listening to a whole album, like, super different than just listening to a song.

    8. APAlex Pall30:03

       Yeah.

    9. JAJack Altman30:04

       And I feel like the difference is I'm listening to, like, an artist rather than, like, you know, a song.

    10. APAlex Pall30:08

        Totally.

    11. JAJack Altman30:09

        And so it's just like, "Who's this person?" And then I get into, like, you know, their albums over time, and, like, how they, you know, grow and evolve, and you see what they pour into it.

    12. APAlex Pall30:17

        Yeah.

    13. JAJack Altman30:17

        You and I chatted about this a bit before, but, like, one of my favorites is, uh, Bon Iver.

    14. APAlex Pall30:21

        Yeah.

    15. JAJack Altman30:22

        And, like-

    16. APAlex Pall30:22

        Amazing

    17. JAJack Altman30:22

        ... you know, he's just had, like, there's- I can't say enough good things. I'm gonna, you know, mess it up.

    18. APAlex Pall30:27

        Yeah.

    19. JAJack Altman30:27

        But, like, there was, like, the early days with, like, For Emma, Forever Ago, where it's just like, it's all so raw and young, and he's talking about a breakup, and his, you know, his- I think his band fell apart. He's, like, in the woods with, like, a sad-sounding guitar-

    20. APAlex Pall30:40

        Yeah

    21. JAJack Altman30:40

        ... but it's amazing. And then he gets into, like, his core stuff a few years later, like, with his, like, self-named album.

    22. APAlex Pall30:45

        Yeah.

    23. JAJack Altman30:46

        And it's totally different, and there's a band around him now. Then it got really experimental.

    24. APAlex Pall30:50

        Mm.

    25. JAJack Altman30:50

        Like, he had, like, um, I, Am I. Before that, there was Twenty Two, A Million, and those songs, I'm just like, "What fucking instrument is that?

    26. APAlex Pall30:56

        No, I mean, those are mind-blowing.

    27. JAJack Altman30:57

        I don't recognize that sound."

    28. APAlex Pall30:58

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    29. JAJack Altman30:58

        It's crazy.

    30. APAlex Pall30:59

        But Justin Vernon is, like, the GOAT of GOAT.
11. 35:42 – 39:28

    Tension behind growth as an artist

    1. JAJack Altman35:42

       How do you balance that? And you know the type of music they love-

    2. APAlex Pall35:45

       Yeah

    3. JAJack Altman35:45

       ... with I'm sure you also have your own interests in music and your own desires to grow as an artist in different ways and to try new things.

    4. APAlex Pall35:51

       Yeah.

    5. JAJack Altman35:52

       And, like, I'm sure there's some tension there.

    6. APAlex Pall35:53

       It's such a important question to ask, because I think that there's so many ways to start this. Like, first, you, like, f-... find a sound that's unique to you, and people rally around it and are excited about it. You know, you make this song, and it becomes, you know, not what you're synonymous for, but, like, you know, Tame Impala has a sound. You know, Drake has a sound. Everyone has something that is identifiable, where you're like, "That's, like,..."

    7. JAJack Altman36:15

       Yeah

    8. APAlex Pall36:15

       ... you know, the vibe. And then you start people being like, "Oh, it's, it's just that again," or, like-

    9. JAJack Altman36:19

       Yeah

    10. APAlex Pall36:19

        ... "Let's see you make something else-

    11. JAJack Altman36:20

        Uh-huh

    12. APAlex Pall36:21

        ... and try something else." Naturally, like, the bad s- the suck comments like that for some reason cut through, and we can make anything. Like, we generally are, like, good producers and writers.

    13. JAJack Altman36:29

        You know how to make all kinds of music.

    14. APAlex Pall36:30

        And then so then you find yourself in the studio being like, "I'll fucking show you." And in some cases, it works, like Drew's ex-girlfriend that was like, "You can't make trap songs."

    15. JAJack Altman36:36

        Yeah.

    16. APAlex Pall36:36

        You know what I mean? Uh-

    17. JAJack Altman36:37

        Look at me now. Yeah.

    18. APAlex Pall36:38

        But he found a way to fit in the context of our world, which I think makes sense. And so I think it's so important to, like, stay true to who you are. It doesn't mean don't experiment, doesn't mean broaden your horizons and seek, uh, you know, and explore different opportunities, but I think it's really important to, like, stay in-

    19. JAJack Altman36:53

        It just has to be authentic, I think.

    20. APAlex Pall36:54

        Exactly. Uh-

    21. JAJack Altman36:55

        And, like, if you've changed as a person, I feel like the music should change almost.

    22. APAlex Pall36:58

        Absolutely, and it doesn't mean it's like, "I use this one synth, so I use this one synth in every, every song."

    23. JAJack Altman37:02

        Yeah.

    24. APAlex Pall37:02

        It's just like, hey, like, what's wrong with, like, like, you know, people coming to us for this thing?

    25. JAJack Altman37:07

        Yeah.

    26. APAlex Pall37:07

        Like Kygo, this is why he does so goddamn well. It's 'cause people come to him for this-

    27. JAJack Altman37:11

        Yeah

    28. APAlex Pall37:11

        ... sound and experience, and it's fucking awesome. And I think he, you know, he really delivers that experience. I think the other, you know, side of the equation is kind of just this idea of, like, I'm a big Oasis fan, and I love, like, the Liam and Noel Gallagher clips that you're getting from, like, the past. And he has this, like, epic clip that everyone should go see, where he's just like, he's like, "Your fans are idiots." He's like: They don't know what they want. He's like: That's what I'm supposed to deliver to them.

    29. JAJack Altman37:34

        Mm-hmm.

    30. APAlex Pall37:34

        Like, I tell my fans what they want. They don't tell me, you know, what they want. You know, obviously, he does it in his Oasis way, which is, like-
12. 39:28 – 41:20

    Inspiration drives creativity

    1. JAJack Altman39:28

       Does good art require external inspiration? Like, can you make great stuff without some catalyst that's inspiring you, whether it's something good or bad that happened in your life, somebody that you saw and learned from and, you know, were, you know, really moved by what they did?

    2. APAlex Pall39:44

       Yeah.

    3. JAJack Altman39:45

       Can a great thing really just bubble up out of you, or is it always being translated from some inspiration outside?

    4. APAlex Pall39:50

       I'm gonna go with inspiration. Like, and I'm not saying that, like, going back to what we were saying about Chris Martin and, like, music being sent down-

    5. JAJack Altman39:55

       Mm-hmm

    6. APAlex Pall39:55

       ... and you kinda have to, but I think it's, when it's sent down, you have to be in, in a place mentally and creatively to, like, uh, receive that me- you know, message and inspiration. And usually, those feelings are coming from all these experiences that you've had around you in your life. Could be a new love, could be a breakup, could be a movie you've seen, could be a conversation you just had. You know, a lot of the ways we start songs are like therapy sessions.

    7. JAJack Altman40:15

       Mm.

    8. APAlex Pall40:15

       It's literally like, "Forget music. What's going on?"

    9. JAJack Altman40:18

       Yeah.

    10. APAlex Pall40:18

        You know, like, "What is... How is your home right now?

    11. JAJack Altman40:20

        Yeah.

    12. APAlex Pall40:20

        Are you happy in your relationship? Are there any things that surprise you, like, stuff with your family? What's it like being 35 or 40," 40, in my case? Through those conversations, you're kind of led to places or thinking about things that, you know, uh, impacted you, and I think, like, acting's a great example of this.

    13. JAJack Altman40:35

        Mm.

    14. APAlex Pall40:35

        Like, you're literally, like, being hired to play the role of someone not you, you know? And so, like, you are channeling all of these things you've seen and experienced to, like, try to kind of capture the essence of this character in this film. And I can remember, I think it was, like, a PBS episode, where someone was like, "Great acting... Like, to be a great actor, like, go do everything else except act."

    15. JAJack Altman40:54

        Hmm.

    16. APAlex Pall40:54

        "Like, go to as many art shows as possible, see as many, as much theater as possible, listen to as much music as possible, read as many books as possible, and, like, then you will have this, like, incredible library of, of context where you can pull from and hopefully create, you know, your own thing." And I think, you know, it's, like, kind of like the conversation about, like, large language models being, like, copyrightable outputs or not. You know, I don't think they sh- really should be, to be honest with you. Um-

13. 41:20 – 44:34

    AIs impact on music

    1. JAJack Altman41:20

       Have you played around with AI music at all yet?

    2. APAlex Pall41:22

       Yeah, absolutely.

    3. JAJack Altman41:22

       What do you think?

    4. APAlex Pall41:23

       It's incredible and scary and-

    5. JAJack Altman41:25

       You think it'll matter?

    6. APAlex Pall41:26

       Uh, like, it will matter in terms of-

    7. JAJack Altman41:27

       Do you think it will, like, uh, do you think we'll be listening to a lot of AI-generated music?

    8. APAlex Pall41:32

       I think we already are. You don't even know it. I think, like-

    9. JAJack Altman41:34

       Like, in the middle of your song, there will be clips that AI help, or there'll be parts that AI...

    10. APAlex Pall41:38

        Maybe eventually. I mean, I think for us, it's just, like, shocking. You know, kind of, a- again, like, what I like about AI tools right now for us is it just, like, keeps us in the zone-

    11. JAJack Altman41:47

        Mm-hmm

    12. APAlex Pall41:48

        ... which is all we wanna do. It's like instead of getting caught up, being like, "Fuck, we need to make drums now," it, which is the next part of this creative process for us, and it's gonna take me, like, an hour and a half, it's like-... Never mind, I can prompt this thing to pump out. This might not be the final drums we're gonna use, but it keeps us moving in the process of creativity.

    13. JAJack Altman42:04

        Yeah.

    14. APAlex Pall42:04

        I think, you know, we've gotten demos sent to us where it's, like, fifteen songs that Drew's singing on, and you're like, "No, no, no. W- well, actually, Drew sounds pretty good on that." And I think that's a really cool application of it. Um, you know, I think that if you were in a nightclub and I was playing an AI-generated song, but it was good, let's just say it was, like, a good song. I don't think anyone would know.

    15. JAJack Altman42:25

        Yeah.

    16. APAlex Pall42:25

        You know what I mean? Like, genuinely, like, I think, like, if you can kind of do the pla- like, control placebo effect of, like, AI music versus human music-

    17. JAJack Altman42:33

        It's, it's pretty good.

    18. APAlex Pall42:34

        Yeah, like, would people really be able to, like, determine which was... Which one isn't? Unless, do I think it's important, like, kind of like the similar c- uh, you know, conversation about albums? Like, I do think context matters.

    19. JAJack Altman42:45

        Yeah.

    20. APAlex Pall42:45

        Like, I think, like, you know, albums provide context the same way that, like, a personality provides context.

    21. JAJack Altman42:50

        That's how I feel. I mean, it's harder-- I think a big part of what makes me enjoy music is knowing something about the artist and why the song or the album happened. I don't think that's the only way to enjoy it. Like, I also love just listening to something on the radio-

    22. APAlex Pall43:02

        Yeah

    23. JAJack Altman43:03

        ... or, like, you know, you're out doing stuff. Like, that's awesome, too.

    24. APAlex Pall43:05

        Yeah.

    25. JAJack Altman43:06

        But, like, the best version of enjoyment of music, I do think the context helps.

    26. APAlex Pall43:09

        Absolutely, and I think, like, it's interesting because we're kinda like fighting against that with TikTok in many ways. Like, I think the way people are discovering music, which, you know, TikTok is a great tool for and platform for, is like, they just hear something that sounds catchy, and they're like, "I'm gonna make a video of this." Only recently did, like, Spotify create an integration where you can, like, click on the song that takes you to Spotify, so you can even see what this person looks like. You know what I mean?

    27. JAJack Altman43:32

        Mm.

    28. APAlex Pall43:32

        Or anything, and I think, like, that step is definitely missing the mark in a lot of cases for, like, younger listeners now, where they're not taking that extra. They're just like: "Oh, this is a cool song. I'm gonna..." You know, not even everything that goes viral on TikTok translates to streaming on the platform either. But I think, you know, those were some of my-- You know, that's why, like, music videos were so cool back in the day. 'Cause it was like, there they are, you know? Now everyone's so available. Everything's out there. Um, you know, we're all like: "Do we ca- do you even care? I just like the song," whatever. You know what I mean?

    29. JAJack Altman44:00

        Yeah.

    30. APAlex Pall44:00

        But, like, I think, like, the artists that have longevity force people to, like, ask those questions and kind of, like, seek them out a little further. 'Cause, like, you know, seeing what Justin Vernon's like as a human being, like, adds so much depth to his music.
14. 44:34 – 47:22

    Outlier talent

    1. APAlex Pall44:34

       when you wrap your head around.

    2. JAJack Altman44:34

       One of the things that's so cool, and, you know, I don't-

    3. APAlex Pall44:36

       Yeah

    4. JAJack Altman44:36

       ... you know, I'm in San Francisco, in tech, and so I don't get to think about this as much. But, like, outlier talent-

    5. APAlex Pall44:42

       Yeah

    6. JAJack Altman44:42

       ... is r- it's really a cool thing.

    7. APAlex Pall44:44

       Yeah.

    8. JAJack Altman44:44

       That there are some people that are just that good at singing, that good at music, that good at, you know, entertainment. Like, it's, it's cool.

    9. APAlex Pall44:50

       Yeah, it's really cool.

    10. JAJack Altman44:51

        Yeah.

    11. APAlex Pall44:51

        And also, it's, like, really weird when you see someone working on-- having that talent, working on the wrong thing.

    12. JAJack Altman44:56

        Uh-huh.

    13. APAlex Pall44:56

        Or, like, it's, like, so talented that they can't even, like, channel it-

    14. JAJack Altman44:59

        Yeah

    15. APAlex Pall44:59

        ... correctly. Like, I had terrible ADHD growing up, and I was, like, a super average student until, like, tenth grade, and then I figured out, like, making lists organized my brain, and, like, it was just a function of, like: I can do everything. I just, like, wouldn't spend enough time... You know, like, and I loved the experience of crossing things off more than I, like, like, hated having to focus, and it just made me like a war machine of, like, getting shit done. And I think, like, that's-- When you find someone that's, like, doing the thing they're supposed to do-

    16. JAJack Altman45:29

        Yeah

    17. APAlex Pall45:29

        ... at the right time, it's, like, one of the greatest things ever.

    18. JAJack Altman45:31

        I feel like thirty years ago, thirty years ago, we, like, misunderstood ADHD as this, like, ailment, and it, like, turned out it's this superpower that just, like, needs, like, Cyclops glasses.

    19. APAlex Pall45:39

        Hundred percent!

    20. JAJack Altman45:40

        Yeah.

    21. APAlex Pall45:40

        I read a really interesting article the other day about, like, autism and how, like, uh, a lot of, like, our favorite apps today, uh, used by most of society, were created by people that, like, have some level of autism-

    22. JAJack Altman45:50

        For sure

    23. APAlex Pall45:50

        ... or Asperger's or something.

    24. JAJack Altman45:51

        Yeah.

    25. APAlex Pall45:51

        And that, like, they are by function, like, tools that, like, kind of, like, uh, like, aid someone that's, like, natural experience in public is, like, uncomfortable.

    26. JAJack Altman46:01

        Yeah.

    27. APAlex Pall46:01

        So, like, Facebook or Instagram or, uh, all these things, like, are ways to kind of like, like, create community but in, like, settings that are, like, more consumable and comfortable. And I was like, "That's a really interesting thought," that, like, we've all, like, you know, all the most powerful platforms [chuckles] were created by people that, like, wanted to create a platform-

    28. JAJack Altman46:19

        Totally

    29. APAlex Pall46:19

        ... that was, like, leaned more, uh-

    30. JAJack Altman46:21

        I mean, pe- people think of ADHD as, like, inability to focus.
15. 47:22 – 54:46

    Building a venture firm

    1. JAJack Altman47:22

       And so maybe this is, like, a good, uh, segue into, like, your investing work-

    2. APAlex Pall47:25

       Yeah

    3. JAJack Altman47:26

       ... where, like, you've also now built a venture firm, and you're working really hard, very successfully at that.

    4. APAlex Pall47:30

       Yeah.

    5. JAJack Altman47:31

       And it's a really different job than your, than your music. And you and I were chatting before about, like, playing to your strengths and figuring out where you've got, you know, an unfair advantage and focusing your time there. So maybe just to, like, start on the investing side, like, how do you think about where you wanna be playing and where you should, like, focus Mantis?

    6. APAlex Pall47:49

       It's kind of an interesting approach in terms of that, like, we are not consumer investors. Like, I've in fact leaned into, like, spaces that, like, we probably, like, have the least amount of business being inv-

    7. JAJack Altman47:59

       Mm

    8. APAlex Pall47:59

       ... invested in. And I've listened to, like I said, every-- a lot of your episodes, and, like, every time I've finished listening to one, I'm like: What am I even do-- You know what I mean? Like, if this, this guy isn't my competitor by virtue of the-... way we've set up our firm, but like, wow! You know, like, I'm con-

    9. JAJack Altman48:12

       You mean that you've set up in order to, like, be able to participate with everybody?

    10. APAlex Pall48:15

        Yeah, like we-

    11. JAJack Altman48:16

        Yeah

    12. APAlex Pall48:16

        ... we want to be collaborative. Like, I want to learn from everyone around me. I want people to think of us as an, an, uh, an ally versus foe. I also think that's, like, was a big part of our success in music, was collaboration, so I think it's, like, a natural extension into venture. And, like, over time we'll absorb these best practices and-

    13. JAJack Altman48:32

        Yeah

    14. APAlex Pall48:32

        ... and be- hopefully become the great investors that, you know, I listen to on this show every week. But I think for us, you know, we wanted to lean into spaces, like, A, out of curiosity. Like, I was much more interested in investing in cybersecurity than I was in more consumer stuff. Similar with AI, similar with, uh, health tech, and, and deep and frontier technologies. I just thought, like, you know, if you're gonna... If it's already such a gamble, at least some gamble things that you care about and think are really interesting. I also thought that I was like, "Hey, this is like..." Like, there's tons of celebrities investing in soda companies. Like, there's very few investin in-

    15. JAJack Altman49:03

        Software

    16. APAlex Pall49:03

        ... software.

    17. JAJack Altman49:04

        Yeah.

    18. APAlex Pall49:04

        That is an advantage and disadvantage in itself. There's probably a reason why they're not doing that, 'cause it's really technical, really challenging, and, and also, like, what business do you have? Like, a lot of success that we hopefully will have is just, uh, you know, an outcome of the value we're able to add. So, like, the second that we invest in a company, and a founder's like, "They just didn't know shit. They didn't do shit. Like, that was just a real waste of cap space," uh, for me, like, we're dead in the water. So we definitely, like, took a risk doing this, but I think, you know, Drew and I are hustlers, and we're just like, "We're gonna figure it out." Like, we know... I have to believe that there's more things these companies need than what is currently available to them. And also, like, modern-day times are changing so fast. Like, the things... Like, you know, when did B2B creators now, or B2B, uh, you know, enterprise software founders, are like fucking creators-

    19. JAJack Altman49:51

        Yeah

    20. APAlex Pall49:51

        ... on X now. Like, they're making videos like they're Ma- like Log- Logan Paul does, and that's awesome. And so I knew that there was gonna be things that we could offer that would be helpful, and we wanted to make sure that it was, like, commiserate with, like, what we were asking for, you know?

    21. JAJack Altman50:04

        Totally.

    22. APAlex Pall50:04

        It's like, don't ask for fifteen percent if you don't feel like you're gonna add fifteen percent value to the company. And then, you know, the last piece was also just, like, the formation. Uh, and I, I say this a lot, but, like, you know, I wanna... You know, we've made so many great relationships over the course of our career, with all sorts of incredible people that are all, like, leaders of these res- just different areas, and to us it was like, "Well, why not go raise capital from them?" You know, turn them into allies of the fund, where we're using them for advice. We're, like, potentially leveraging the success of their platforms-

    23. JAJack Altman50:32

        Mm

    24. APAlex Pall50:32

        ... to drive value back in the in, into the companies we're investing in. And they're, like, we'll use them as our initial wedge, so that when someone's like, "Why are you investing? Why, what should I let you invest in this company?" It's like, " 'Cause I know you wanna talk to this guy, and this guy's one of our good friends, and I can make that, you know, happen for you." But once we're in the door, we'll, like, provide, you know, all sorts of value. And I always say, and I think it really summed up by this kind of analogy, it's just like we're trying to be the sixth man of the year on every championship team.

    25. JAJack Altman50:55

        [chuckles]

    26. APAlex Pall50:55

        Uh, you know, like, I'm not trying to be a starter right now. Like, I much... I think it's much cooler to come off the bench for a team that wins a ring than it is to be a starter on a team that's not even in the playoffs. And, you know, I think we stand to learn more by being a part of that process.

    27. JAJack Altman51:08

        What you mean by that, is you just wanna be in great companies, even if it's not, like, you led the round or something?

    28. APAlex Pall51:12

        Yes, that, but I think, like, the implications of, like, being alongside a founder that is building a great company. You get to see what greatness looks like. You know, you get to understand what are they doing that, like, I can take and hopefully replicate across other investments? And it's like, you know, you kind of are what you eat. Like, if you hang out with shitty people-

    29. JAJack Altman51:30

        Yeah

    30. APAlex Pall51:30

        ... you're gonna be a shitty person probably. You know what I mean? You know, like, if you got to play on the, you know, uh, what was it? Like, the two thousand and two Lakers or two thousand and one Lakers, like, with Kobe Bryant, like, you got to see this man, the way he practiced, the way he approached the sport, like, the intensity. You also got to see how Phil Jackson coached the team. And so for me, as, like, a new investor, it's like, that's a huge benefit, too. Like, obviously, the goal is to be a part of great companies so we generate big returns, but I think for us, it's also just an opportunity about learning from the best and seeing what that profile looks like-
16. 54:46 – 1:01:17

    Experiencing elite circles

    1. JAJack Altman54:46

       I'd be curious to hear your reflections on, like, how you experience, like, sort of, you know, elite circles in music and entertainment, and in tech and investing. You have real time with both.

    2. APAlex Pall54:58

       Yeah.

    3. JAJack Altman54:58

       I'd just be curious, like, how similar is it? Are there, like, some, like, fundamental differences?

    4. APAlex Pall55:02

       I feel more like... I don't know why. Like, I mean, we have, like, plenty of awesome friends in the entertainment space that are, you know, successful. But, like, it does feel like, uh, like either there's, like, secret groups that I don't know about where everyone's hanging out. Like, sometimes you see a wedding, and you're like, "Damn, like, so they all hang out?" Like, you know what I mean?

    5. JAJack Altman55:17

       Like, Hollywood elite.

    6. APAlex Pall55:17

       Yeah, yeah.

    7. JAJack Altman55:18

       Yeah.

    8. APAlex Pall55:18

       You're like, "What a cool-- I wish I was part of that group." [chuckles] I mean, Drew and I are just, like, we've always just kind of... Like, we love being social, but we're also just, like, so locked in on, like-

    9. JAJack Altman55:26

       You've got a lot to do.

    10. APAlex Pall55:27

        Yeah, we, well, we're just, like, like, we're, you know, we've never count-- No one lifted us up. You know what I mean? And we kind of have always felt like it's like, it's on our shoulders to, like, figure this out and make the music. And, like, if we're out gallivanting around or whatever-

    11. JAJack Altman55:39

        Networking with celebrities.

    12. APAlex Pall55:40

        Yeah, like, it's just, like, I don't know, it doesn't feel natural to us.

    13. JAJack Altman55:43

        Doesn't make music.

    14. APAlex Pall55:44

        Yeah, it doesn't make music. Um, you know, and I think there's, like, value in it. Like, going to Fashion Week is cool, like-

    15. JAJack Altman55:49

        Yeah

    16. APAlex Pall55:49

        ... if you love fashion. Drew loves fashion. Like, it's, you know, an amazing experience. Like, I don't care about it that much, you know?

    17. JAJack Altman55:54

        Totally.

    18. APAlex Pall55:55

        So I think we all seek out, like, things and interests that align with who our personalities are. But, like, I, honestly, like, [chuckles] I feel like we align with, like, the founder tech people world a lot more, uh, acutely, because we're just like, you know, let's, you know, like, put hours in the gym. And, like, the harder we throw, like, work through our, like our, you know, selves of these problems, the more we're resolved, we're gonna get out what we put in. And, you know, we, I feel like we have a kind of an imposter syndrome with, like, the Hollywood-

    19. JAJack Altman56:22

        Mm-hmm

    20. APAlex Pall56:22

        ... side of things. Like, I don't feel u- uniquely special. I feel great about myself, but I don't think, like, anyone should treat me, you know, differently-

    21. JAJack Altman56:30

        Yeah

    22. APAlex Pall56:30

        ... for the things we've done in the past. And it's like, I'm more just like, what have I done, you know, today?

    23. JAJack Altman56:34

        Yeah.

    24. APAlex Pall56:34

        Than I am, like, what I've done in the past. Um-

    25. JAJack Altman56:36

        Yeah. I mean, I always think celebrity is a very funny thing, 'cause it's like no matter how famous somebody is, like, they're still a regular person. They wake up, they, like, wash their face in the mirror.

    26. APAlex Pall56:44

        Yeah.

    27. JAJack Altman56:44

        And they're like-- And then they, like, look at me like, "Oh yeah, I'm George Clooney. I forgot." You know, there, there must be some experience like that for everybody.

    28. APAlex Pall56:49

        Absolutely. I mean, I think, like, you know, I'm like the most average... I mean, it's kind of a joke about us, where, like, any two white guys can kinda be [chuckles] The Chainsmokers.

    29. JAJack Altman56:57

        Yeah.

    30. APAlex Pall56:57

        And there's been plenty of-
17. 1:01:17 – 1:05:52

    Importance of momentum

    1. JAJack Altman1:01:17

       in an interesting spot because you've, you've done a lot, you're still young, you've got two very good businesses going, and you probably have, like, a busy decade ahead, where it's like, uh, you could, you could, you could go a lot of ways. Do you take it as it comes, or are you, like, uh, you've got a particular mission and a place you want to get everything?

    2. APAlex Pall1:01:32

       It's important. Like, Drew and I probably don't do this enough, where it's like you have a conversation about, like, "What do we want to do this year?" You know what I mean? Like, what do we hope to gain? Like, what is the next... Like, do we- are we both on the same page that we want to make and play music for the next five years? And you're like... And it's not, like, surprising, the answers we have, but it's, like, surprising that we haven't had-

    3. JAJack Altman1:01:48

       Yeah

    4. APAlex Pall1:01:48

       ... the conversations. You know, you also have to balance your, like, objectives with the reality of everything. Like, music is not a young man's game. Like, we both want to have families. Like, c- we definitely can't be t- we could tour as much as we want right now with kids, but, like, what kind of impact does it have on the kids, on your relationships with your wife? Like, these are all things you have to consider that you maybe don't necessarily have all the answers for right now. I was listening to the David Sandra podcast, and he was like, "I'm only, I only think 24 hours at a time." You know what I mean? And I was like, I don't know if that's a bad or good thing.

    5. JAJack Altman1:02:15

       I think it's good.

    6. APAlex Pall1:02:16

       Yeah, like, I think it's, that's, that's a, you know, important way to stay locked in and continue to prioritize the things that are important for you in the short term. But, like, you know, you have to, like, build- like, m- I don't, didn't expect Mantis to be a tier-one fund off the bat. You know what I mean? I knew it would take 10, 15, 20 years of hard work to get there. So you have to think on those timelines a little bit to get there, and understand that, like, you know, we were taking 50K allocations in fund one into great companies, 'cause, like, we understood that's where we sat.

    7. JAJack Altman1:02:45

       Yeah.

    8. APAlex Pall1:02:45

       And it was more important to be on that logo-

    9. JAJack Altman1:02:47

       Yeah

    10. APAlex Pall1:02:47

        ... than it was to, like, be outside. And I think in music, you know, similarly, like, where are we investing our time, in singles and albums? You know, is it on the sh- the show that's the most important thing? Is it, you know, actually pulling out of the market? I mean, we're so available. Like, if you want to see us, you can come see us in Vegas pretty much every weekend. Is that a bad thing? It's not a bad thing, but there's a trade-off.

    11. JAJack Altman1:03:06

        It's a thing, yeah.

    12. APAlex Pall1:03:06

        You know, it's a trade-off. And so, you know, I think it's just h- being aware of those things, having those conversations-

    13. JAJack Altman1:03:12

        Yeah

    14. APAlex Pall1:03:12

        ... um, are so critical. I'm lucky to have a partner where you can have, like... Even though we're not the same person, we have, we're very, more aligned than mor- most people are.

    15. JAJack Altman1:03:19

        It's incredibly lucky.

    16. APAlex Pall1:03:20

        Yeah, and you get to like, you know, s- he'll say things that I'm like, "Oh, that's... I wasn't really thinking about it in that context, but that is super relevant." But it scares the shit out of me. I mean, like, you know, my dad died, I think he was, like, 54, you know? So I'm, like, only f-

    17. JAJack Altman1:03:32

        Yeah.

    18. APAlex Pall1:03:33

        And he felt so old-

    19. JAJack Altman1:03:34

        Yeah

    20. APAlex Pall1:03:34

        ... like, mature to me.

    21. JAJack Altman1:03:35

        Mine was 67.

    22. APAlex Pall1:03:36

        Yeah, and it's just a weird context when you, like, put it in that perspective of, like, "Oh, my God, I'm already not far off this guy. Am I, like, better shape? Am I better l- look of se..., well, you know, [chuckles] better looking-

    23. JAJack Altman1:03:45

        [chuckles]

    24. APAlex Pall1:03:45

        ... more successful? Am I a bigger asshole?"

    25. JAJack Altman1:03:47

        Mm-hmm.

    26. APAlex Pall1:03:47

        "Like, will I have left, you know, an impact on the world on some, some level?" But, uh, but I think you c- you know, you can't lose your mind not being able to control the things you obviously can't control.

    27. JAJack Altman1:03:58

        Yeah.

    28. APAlex Pall1:03:58

        And, and just, like, have fun. I, I... That's something I think, like, Drew [chuckles] and I have been saying a lot lately, which is like, to me, like, momentum is just the most important thing with anything. And it doesn't necessarily mean, like, momentum in, like, our songs are streaming more, or making more money this year, or they... Like, momentum comes in all different shapes and sizes, and it's like, I wanna have fun when we make music in the studio, and we talk about planning a tour, or what our show looks like. You know, I wanna... When we're discussing deals, it's, like, a lot of it's not fun in the traditional sense-

    29. JAJack Altman1:04:26

        Mm

    30. APAlex Pall1:04:26

        ... but it's like, "Damn, we're, like, in here for this great deal!"

Episode duration: 1:05:52