Apple’s Jony Ive Full Conversation with Graydon Carter | Vanity Fair

1. 0:00 – 0:08

   Intro

   1. GCGraydon Carter0:01

      [on-hold music]

2. 0:08 – 1:31

   Life at Apple: gratitude, recognition, and the realities of being Jony Ive

   1. GCGraydon Carter0:08

      It's a good time to be, um, Jonathan Ive. Um, he was knighted recently by the Queen. He's brought out two new, um, Apple iPhones which have, to great acclaim. Um, he's got a watch coming out shortly. Uh, Apple was just named the, uh, the most valuable brand in the world for the umpteenth time. And, um, and he's the greatest industrial designer in the world right now. Um, so what are the upsides and downsides of being Jony Ive right now?

   2. JIJony Ive0:43

      Um, good Lord. [laughs] Um, well, the downside is I have to spend much too much time with myself. [laughs] Um, the upside is I, I've been terribly lucky. I've been part of a, an incredible design team for 15, 20 years. Um, a design team where nobody has voluntarily left. Um, and so I, I, um, I think in my future, one of my memories at, at Apple will be less the actual products that we've developed, but the way that we developed them, the way that we worked together to develop them. And I think that, that, that's been something that I, um, every day feel grateful for.

3. 1:31 – 1:53

   Keeping the core design team small and stable

   1. GCGraydon Carter1:31

      Well, how, uh, how big is the design team, the, the, the sort of core group?

   2. JIJony Ive1:35

      Well, the c- the core team's actually very small. There, there are, um, there are about 16, 17 of us. Um, it's, you know, it's grown, um, steadily over the last 15 years. Um, but we've, yeah, we've worked very hard to, um, to keep it very small.

4. 1:53 – 2:27

   A typical day: commute, arrival, and the rhythm of work

   1. GCGraydon Carter1:53

      And, and so, um, I'm always fascinated by what people's days are like. So you get in your car in San Francisco, and you drive to Cupertino each morning.

   2. JIJony Ive2:04

      Yeah, and at the moment, it's taking about two hours.

   3. GCGraydon Carter2:07

      Okay.

   4. JIJony Ive2:07

      Uh. [laughs]

   5. GCGraydon Carter2:08

      And what time is that?

   6. JIJony Ive2:10

      Um, that's about 7:30, 8:00.

   7. GCGraydon Carter2:13

      And you listen to music?

   8. JIJony Ive2:15

      Actually, I'm, I, yeah, I sort of listen to music, make phone calls.

   9. GCGraydon Carter2:18

      Okay.

   10. JIJony Ive2:19

       Um-

   11. GCGraydon Carter2:19

       And so you settle into the office at 8:30, 9:30?

   12. JIJony Ive2:23

       Yeah. Yeah.

   13. GCGraydon Carter2:24

       And then what happens?

5. 2:27 – 4:07

   Creative process: frequent team meetings, studio tables, and drawing together

   1. JIJony Ive2:27

      Um, well, the way that we've worked for, um... I mean, one of the advantages of being part of a design team that's been around for a long time is that we've, we've had the, the luxury and the opportunity to develop our process. And so one of the things that we do is we just, we, we meet religiously as an entire, as the creative team, um, three or four times, um, a week. And so that will look like it's, it's the group of designers, um, working together, you know, collaborating, um, on whatever project that we're focused on.

   2. GCGraydon Carter3:05

      Around a, like a big table or something?

   3. JIJony Ive3:07

      Yeah. Like the, I don't, you, you, you, you've, familiar with the tables in our stores. Um, they look very, very similar. In fact, they're, look identical, um, to the tables in our studio because we, we used to see the products on the tables in the studio and actually thought, "Well, this would actually be a rather nice way of, of displaying the products in the store." So yeah, we, we, we, we sort of sit around, stand around those tables and, um, and we draw. You know, we still, um, we still draw, and it, it's... I mean, it's, it's, for as long as I've been doing this, I, um, I'm still so excited about just the nature of the process. You know, this, it, it's, I, I feel so absurdly lucky to be part of a creative process where, you know, on one day, on Tuesday, um, there's no idea. We

6. 4:07 – 5:52

   From abstract idea to physical model: the moment everything changes

   1. JIJony Ive4:07

      don't know what we're gonna do. Um, there's nothing. And then on Wednesday, there's an idea, um, that was created. And invariably, the idea is a thought that becomes a conversation. Um, and so the way that we design to start with [clears throat] is, is to talk. And it doesn't, it's, it's fairly exclusive. It only involves a few people. Um, and a remarkable thing happens in, in, in the, in the process. Um, and it, and it, and it's the point in the process where there is the greatest change, and it's when we give form to an abstract idea. So the abstract idea is fairly exclusive and really doesn't involve very many people. As soon as there's an object, it, it's still, uh, still-

   2. GCGraydon Carter5:04

      You mean a physical object?

   3. JIJony Ive5:05

      Yeah, a physical object. We, you know, we will draw, and we will make lots of, we make a lot of models.

   4. GCGraydon Carter5:09

      Made out of what?

   5. JIJony Ive5:10

      Um, it can depend what it is. I mean, it can be metal, or it can be, um, you know, it can be a plastic. Um, but what I've noticed is this shift is f- is profound, and it's, it's, it really galvanizes, uh, and, and provides a focus to an entire team. And very often, when they're struggling with these sort of abstract, tentative ideas, suddenly I think you've got a sort of a flag that in, in many ways, you know, the, it won't become the final design. I mean, it very seldom does. But what it does do is describe what we're trying to do.

7. 5:52 – 6:33

   Eureka and surprise: the thrill of the first model

   1. GCGraydon Carter5:52

      Like, well, and can you remember a, a sort of a eureka moment in one of those design meetings?

   2. JIJony Ive5:58

      Yeah, I mean, I, I, I think, um- I think, well, the, the, the phone that we've just, we've just launched, I, I think, um, there is just something very special about when you have an object. We're physical beings, and when there's an object to, to touch, everything shifts. Um, and yeah, it- it's, it's always been the case. And what, what, what just shocks me is that I, I, I remain surprised and thrilled every time you get that first, that first model.

8. 6:33 – 8:07

   Designing the larger-screen iPhone: avoiding clunky trade-offs and shaping comfort

   1. GCGraydon Carter6:33

      But in this phone, why did you go back to rounded edges, which is I guess the shape of the very first iPhone, and then you went to beautiful square edges. And you said because it was easier to pick up, or, or so-

   2. JIJony Ive6:43

      Well, what happened in the case of the phone was many years ago, um, we made prototypes of phones with bigger screens. Um, like we make notebooks with bigger screens. It was a concept that we were familiar with. [laughs] Um, and they were, they were interesting features having a bigger screen, but the, the end result was a really lousy product because they were big and clunky like a lot of the competitive phones are still. Um-

   3. SPSpeaker7:15

      [laughs]

   4. JIJony Ive7:16

      And, and we thought, you know, this is... There's, there's a danger, isn't there, that you s- you, you, you're seduced by a feature at the expense of making a great product. And so years ago we s- we realized, well, this is going to be important that we have larger screens, but we needed to do a lot of things to, to make that larger screen yield a really compelling product. And so that ranged from how we would drive the, the, the thickness, the Z, the weight. But one of the things was when the product, you know, the product got necessarily wider because it's a bigger display, um, it was just very important, that section at the end, the, the, at the edges, was very important to making it comfortable and actually feeling, um, less wide than in reality it was.

9. 8:07 – 8:54

   “What if…?” collaboration: great teams turn constraints into alternatives

   1. GCGraydon Carter8:07

      The notion of you working inside, when you say, "What if we did this?" Do you... Is that what you say, and then somebody says, "Well, we can work on that and figure out how to make that work," or-

   2. JIJony Ive8:15

      Yes.

   3. GCGraydon Carter8:16

      Okay.

   4. JIJony Ive8:16

      No, it, it's... These, these, these conversations are... They're, they're so exciting. You know, it's, uh... They're, they're nearly always the, "Well, what if... Could we... What if we were to do this? Can..." Now, the, the, the important thing is you obviously you have to be working with really great people. 'Cause if the... It's a short conversation if it goes, "Well, if you can do this," "Oh, that won't work." Um, but if you're working with great people, um, they're intrigued, and, um, and very often it doesn't work, but there's something else that does. And so it's that, it's that collaboration-

10. 8:54 – 10:24

    Big bets and persistence: touch input and early watch technologies

    1. GCGraydon Carter8:54

       Well, what was the biggest what if? The, the... Where you, where you said, "Can we do this?" And then they said, "No," and you said, "Well, let's try," or...

    2. JIJony Ive9:04

       Um, well, well, I mean, touch was a huge one because that required... There were a thousand reasons and many occasions when we nearly gave up. You see, that's what I meant about the, you know, there's this strange inevitability thing where you think, "Well, of course the phone makes sense and gets done." Um, but we nearly didn't [laughs] because we, we didn't know it was gonna work. Like we're working on lots of programs, and you really hope they are, um, and you have this very strange balance between being, um, it might appear a little bit stubborn. I like to call it being resolute. But, um, but really, um, really pushing and pushing an idea, but at the same time realizing that it might not work, and at some point you have to make that decision, and we nearly did on the phone. So, so that, that was, that was, um, that, that was a very big one. On, on, on the watch that we've just recently announced, there were, there were many, um, technologies that we had to develop that started with the, "Well, what if... How could we do this?" Um, and then making lots and lots of prototypes-

11. 10:24 – 12:07

    Design without instructions: simplicity, intuition, and hindsight’s illusion of inevitability

    1. GCGraydon Carter10:24

       Well, I'm gonna read you two quotes from, uh, two oth- other legendary, uh, industrial designers. Um, one, uh, Dieter Rams who said that the good design makes the product understandable, and Raymond Loewy who said that more than function itself, simplicity is the deciding factor in the aesthetic equation. And the, in a way the iPhone is probably the most com- complex machine any of us have held in our hands, and yet it came with no instructions.

    2. JIJony Ive10:56

       Right.

    3. GCGraydon Carter10:58

       I mean, was... I mean, what was... How... When did that come about that you fa- that you could send out something so incredible and complex and with so many varied functions and no instructions?

    4. JIJony Ive11:10

       I mean, h- hopefully that's, that's, that's what we try and do, um, with varying degrees of success. Um, but I think that, I think that for a lot of us a large display that you could directly touch and manipulate what you wanted to manipulate seemed the most obvious natural intuitively. It's w- it is odd, though, that that's, that's the case now. It was ve- it absolutely wasn't the case, um, nine years ago or when we were working on it. You know, a strange thing happens, you know, with the benefit of hindsight. You, you, you, you, you get... You sort of slide into this idea that it was inevitable and obvious. And, um, if it was inevitable and obvious, we would have done it a long time ago much faster. [laughs] Um, it really wasn't. It was incr- it was incredibly difficult and challenging-

12. 12:07 – 13:51

    Multi-touch as the “aha”: escaping the button-and-screen compromise

    1. GCGraydon Carter12:07

       Well, most phones were sort of shaped like, um... Like candy bars, like sort of-

    2. JIJony Ive12:11

       Yes

    3. GCGraydon Carter12:11

       ... you know, they were sort of roundish, sort of, uh, uh, Ericsson-type phones, or clam shells. So was that a... wh- what was the thing you did then to spread it out and make it flat?

    4. JIJony Ive12:21

       Well, the, the main thing was, and, and I think our observation was, we, we'd been doing a lot of work that was just abstract for, for many years, abstract explorations into just multi-touch. So, you know, we had these just big displays where you could pinch and zoom a- an image, and there wasn't one person who played with that that wasn't completely captivated. And, and so from there gr- grew this idea that m- most products up to that point in time make this massive trade-off. They have buttons that were too small, um, to use comfortably and easily, and a display that was too small. But it was like that 'cause they had to share the same space. And so the, the, um... I mean, I... so I don't know whether, you know, you, you... this is the way that, you know, you guys perceive this, but this is, you know, this was our aha, which was actually we didn't have to make... you know, we didn't have to compromise both. By having a much larger display, we could have buttons that were contextual, that were specific to sp- you know, certain apps, and they could be really big if you only needed one button. If you needed a lot of buttons, they obviously would be smaller. Um, so, so yeah, I, I, I think that, you know, that just drove, you know, the display being, you know, one single plane.

13. 13:51 – 16:47

    First encounter with the Mac: usability, humility, and seeing values in products

    1. GCGraydon Carter13:51

       Just to go back a bit, what was the first Apple product that you ever encountered before you got to Apple?

    2. JIJony Ive13:58

       Um, well, it's actually when I was at art school. Um, it's, um, it was in, um, in England, um, ob- obviously, um-

    3. GCGraydon Carter14:09

       [laughs]

    4. JIJony Ive14:09

       ... and, uh, tomato. [laughs]

    5. GCGraydon Carter14:12

       [laughs]

    6. JIJony Ive14:13

       Um, um, and, um, it was at a time when computer-aided design was being legislated and the computers that the college had were, um... I mean, they were absolutely terrible. Um, and so because of that, I of course assumed that the problem was with me and that I was technically incapable and inept. And, um, it's a funny thing actually is I, I was talking to somebody last week about it, which is if you eat something that tastes awful, you assume the food's bad, but when you use a product, um, that you can't use, you don't assume it's the product. You assume it's you, don't you? [laughs] And, and so I, I went through art school c- convinced that, you know, I, I didn't know how to use this, but right at the end, um, I came across the Mac and it was the first... You know, the, the, um, all-in-one, like, you know, boxy one. And there are a couple of things that were really shocking to me. The first one was... well, it was a relief actually more than shocking, which was, um, actually I could do this. It's, it's really straightforward, [laughs] and it was just the other computers were, um, just heinous. Um, but the second thing, and it's an em- it's an embarrassing admission given how long I'd already been at art school, and I remember it ever so clearly, um, to, to the day, and that was I, for the first time in my life, had a very clear sense of the people that had got together to design and make that product. And I suddenly realized, "Oh, goodness, yeah, the stuff that we do testifies to our values. It testifies to our preoccupations and the things that we care about." Um, and so it was... I, I, and I from that point developed a real interest and intrigue about these, this group of guys in California that made a computer that you could change the noises, 'cause I mean, no other computer you could, you could make it beep or bong or any... And it just... I, I, I was absolutely intrigued by that, this really clear sense. I wanted to find out who, who did this.

14. 16:47 – 18:45

    Why industrial design: service, tools for others, and early inspiration from objects

    1. GCGraydon Carter16:47

       But you were on a road to become an industrial designer. That was-

    2. JIJony Ive16:50

       Yeah.

    3. GCGraydon Carter16:51

       Wh- why that rather than a, a graphic designer or a- an artist or...

    4. JIJony Ive16:56

       Um, honestly, it was the only thing I could do. [laughs] Um, I, I think... I, I think the... I, I, I like, um... I think so much about industrial design, there's this sense of service that what we do, we make tools for, for each other. [laughs] And so the goal, unlike fine art, it's not about, you know, developing a strong narrative or self-expression. Um, we try and make tools that, that make things, you know, make life a bit easier. Um, and I just think that's quite noble and [laughs] I liked that idea. Um, and it's a relatively, in, in... it's a relatively young profession and it felt that there, there was an awful lot of opportunity still. Um, but, uh, and since I've always just liked... All, all design really is, is drawing and making stuff, um, and I, I enjoyed doing that and-

    5. GCGraydon Carter17:56

       Well, what, what sort of things did you like as a kid that you thought were beautifully designed?

    6. JIJony Ive18:01

       Um, there was, um, there, there was one thing I remember very clearly that my mother and father had, um, and it was, um... I don't know if y- you guys... You know Braun, the, the, the German appliance manufacturer? That they had a big food mixer. And, um, as a little fella who had absolutely no interest in food mixing or cooking, I was shocked at the interest I had in this, this object and how it was made and how extraordinarily, achingly beautiful it was. Um, and I didn't really know what it did, um, but I somehow assumed it did it very well.

15. 18:45 – 25:03

    Audience Q&A: copying, the meaning of “theft,” and design as care (function + beauty)

    1. SPSpeaker18:45

       Hi. Um-

    2. JIJony Ive18:46

       Hello

    3. SPSpeaker18:46

       ... my question is, um, there is a, a company in China, mobile company, it's called Xiaomi, and a lot of journalists, they call it the Apple of China because they think that, uh, your design is alike and they really like it, calling the Chinese Apple. So what do you think of these comparisons, and do you find them flattering? Do you find them, you know, complimenting you on the great style?

    4. JIJony Ive19:13

       Um, honestly, there's a danger that I'll, I'll sound a little bit harsh, um, and perhaps a little bit bitter [laughs] 'cause I actually don't see it as flattery. Uh, I'm n- I'm just talking about the, this issue in general. Um, I actually see it as theft, um, because when you're doing something for the first time, for example, with the phone, and you don't know it's gonna work... You know how I was des- describing about this sort of wrestle? Um, you don't know it's gonna work, and you spend seven or eight years working on something, um, and then it's copied. I have to be honest, the first thing I think isn't, "Ooh, that was flattering." [laughs]

    5. GCGraydon Carter20:00

       [laughs]

    6. JIJony Ive20:01

       Um, [laughs] all those weekends I could have had at home with my lovely family but didn't, but the flattery made up for it. [laughs]

    7. GCGraydon Carter20:12

       [laughs]

    8. JIJony Ive20:13

       Um, and I think it's really straightforward. It really is theft, and it's lazy, and, um, I don't think it's okay at all. [laughs]

    9. GCGraydon Carter20:26

       [audience applauds]

    10. JIJony Ive20:32

        [laughs]

    11. SPSpeaker20:32

        Hi, I'm Hillary. I'm also an MFA student at Academy of Art, and, um, my question focuses on the balance between f- um, the functionality of your products and also the design. Um, as you probably know, there's a large body of research that focuses on aesthetic perception of information technology artifacts, and how if something is, um, perceived as beauti- beautiful, that, um, it's also perceived as having higher quality and a- inevitably, um, better usability. And this is actually something that a lot of technology companies struggle with where they might make a beautiful product, but it doesn't function well. And Apple seems to have, um, succeeded both, having that balance of a beautiful product but also great functionality. So I was wondering, in comparison with oth- other technology companies, how does Apple successfully strike that balance between functionality and design?

    12. JIJony Ive21:28

        Well, it's a, it's a great question. Um, I think the way we see design is it, it's, it's everything. And so I think a beautiful product that doesn't work very well is ugly. Um, so I don't s- can't really compartmentalize. Um, the best things we've done are those that are completely harmonious and you couldn't com- compartmentalize. Um, and, um, so I, I think, yeah, I mean, I think design is, is, is, is the whole thing. And I think very often the beauty is in that it works, um, and perhaps not the appearance.

    13. GCGraydon Carter22:11

        Perhaps this gentleman over here.

    14. SPSpeaker22:12

        Yes, I was wondering if you had examples today of things that you thought were really great design where those two factors work together.

    15. JIJony Ive22:21

        Um, it's a really hard question, um, because I, I, I'm terribly, terribly critical [laughs] and, and, and very critical of ourselves. Um, you know, I get a lot of email, um, of people being critical, and some of them I know think, "God, really got him on that," and they couldn't hold a light to the self-criticism. Um, but, um, I th- I, I, I think what... In, in sort of, in a, in sort of a broader sense-

    16. GCGraydon Carter22:58

        Mm-hmm

    17. JIJony Ive22:58

        ... I, I, I think, um, actually, I think Ben mentioned ear- earlier on, he was saying about how really thinking that consumers are really discerning. And one of the things that I, I've come to feel really strongly is I, I believe that we sense... We couldn't articulate why. I, I can't articulate why, but I believe we sense when there's been care taken with a product just in the same way we sense carelessness. And sadly, most of our manufactured environment, I think testifies to a degree of carelessness. It testifies to, like, get it built fast, make it cheap, um, make it look different, um, in a bit... There's just that sort of carelessness. And I, I, I, I don't know. I, I just think it's one of the things that we do for... one of the things that we st- we strive to do for humanity is, and, and, and it's a way that we can serve, is to take care. Um, there used to be in the, the, there used to be this whole, um, debate in, I mean, you know, England industrialized first. Um, and there was [laughs]

    18. GCGraydon Carter24:18

        [laughs]

    19. JIJony Ive24:19

        Didn't we do well? [laughs]

    20. GCGraydon Carter24:20

        [laughs]

    21. JIJony Ive24:21

        And, um, there was, there was a guy called Pugin who, who really led a movement which was articulating the evils of mass production and was saying that it was godless and it was, um, without integrity. Um, and I think that was absolutely ridiculous because you can make something as a craftsperson poorly [laughs] without care, and you can make something in high volume with incredible care, and obviously, you know, vice versa. [outro music]

Episode duration: 25:04