EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,005 words- 0:00 – 8:38
Loneliness and the Art of Connection
- TNTrevor Noah
[upbeat music] Let's say-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... a student came up to you and said, um, "Hey, Professor Grant, I need your help. Ha... I just... I feel lonely, man. Even when I'm with people, I feel lonely. I'll... They'll invite me to a party and I still feel lonely. Um, I'll go out with them, I'll feel lonely. I, I just don't feel like I have people in my life." What would your advice be?
- AGAdam Grant
I think my advice would be to change your rituals for how you interact. This is why so many super teams fail to win in their first year, is they haven't figured out how to vibe yet. You got a bunch of individual stars, but I will bet on the team with more shared experience over the more talented-
- TNTrevor Noah
Hm
- AGAdam Grant
... team that's never figured out how to collaborate. And so a group of researchers get together and say, "What if, what if we could look at people's rate of professional misconduct by whether they're Ashley Madison users or not?" And what the data showed was you can look at CEOs, you can look at police officers, you can look at investment analysts, their rates of misconduct are two to three times higher if they cheat on their spouses.
- TNTrevor Noah
So if you invited me to a game night, I would come.
- AGAdam Grant
If I invite... You would come to a game night?
- TNTrevor Noah
1,000% yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Really?
- TNTrevor Noah
1,000%.
- AGAdam Grant
I've never asked you because I assumed we weren't pals.
- TNTrevor Noah
Nope, 1,000%.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Game night, I'm there like a bear in my underwear.
- AGAdam Grant
Will you travel for a game night?
- TNTrevor Noah
You know the saying.
- SPSpeaker
Without a...
- TNTrevor Noah
Que.
- SPSpeaker
Okay.
- TNTrevor Noah
How far are you gonna say?
- SPSpeaker
Nothing.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, I was... I was like, I don't know where this goes now. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
This is What Now? With Trevor Noah.
- SPSpeaker
[upbeat music] You know, have, have you seen those people that wear... 'Cause I, I watched, like, some gangster movies, and then th- one thing that they always talk about is a chinchilla coat.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes. Yeah, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Like, you, you know when they go-
- TNTrevor Noah
They do the thing
- SPSpeaker
... the, the women wear chinchilla coats, and then, you know, that's a gangster's... No one has ever worn a gorilla fur coat.
- 8:38 – 15:42
Humor and Power Dynamics in the Workplace
- SPSpeaker
Hey.
- TNTrevor Noah
Wait, wait, wait. So when you go to a company, do you encourage them to, like, sprinkle in, sprinkle in a little bit of asshole for the thing to work well?
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
How does it work?
- AGAdam Grant
No, I think I, I prefer court jester, actually.
- TNTrevor Noah
Wait, what do you mean?
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, somebody... 'Cause comedians can say things that no one else can.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
So we need somebody who's funny-
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... who can do the little mocking laugh that you just did.
- TNTrevor Noah
In the office?
- AGAdam Grant
Ideally. Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Would it be somebody who works in the office or someone they bring in specially for this?
- AGAdam Grant
It's tricky, 'cause if they work in the office, sometimes they don't have enough power to do it-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh
- AGAdam Grant
... and there's too much risk.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, that makes sense.
- AGAdam Grant
And if they're an outsider, they can't always read the dynamics.
- TNTrevor Noah
And then I also think if they do have too much power-
- SPSpeaker
Hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... now it's not funny. Funny relies on not having the power.
- SPSpeaker
It not being able to happen or not.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, but also not having the power.
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- TNTrevor Noah
Have you ever done those gigs where the audience is all sitting, like, um, like, really below you?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's not as, it's not as much fun because it feels like you're, like, telling them stuff.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- 15:42 – 19:28
The Book "Vibe" and Curing Loneliness
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh. Wait, what do you mean? She came up with the title?
- AGAdam Grant
Accidentally. So I was just getting ready to start writing it.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And, uh, I was, uh, I was traveling with her, and she saw me talking with somebody that I'd met once or twice before. And, and she said, "You two are really vibing." I was like, "That's the title."
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, and she was like, "Oh, what have I done?"
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. She's like, "Stop saying, stop saying vibe, Dad."
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Over and over again. But yes, I wanna try to figure out how we can be less lonely. I feel like that's a big problem in the world.
- TNTrevor Noah
Less lonely. How do we get along more? How do we understand the dynamics behi- behind getting along?
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
So remember what I was saying to you earlier.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right? And this is literally, I'm quoting from the book or paraphrasing, rather. You literally lay this out as you get into the book.
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's going, like, have you ever had that moment where you meet someone, you, you, you engage with them, you go like, "Man, I really love this person," and then you go, "But, like, why?" That's literally what you ... That-
- SPSpeaker
Oh, wow
- TNTrevor Noah
... that's literally what you're working on. That's what you've worked on in this book.
- AGAdam Grant
Eugene, I'm just gonna have you interview Trevor about the book.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
I'm, I'm not needed here.
- TNTrevor Noah
Ask me about-
- AGAdam Grant
You said it somewhere.
- TNTrevor Noah
Ask me about my profession as a, a, my time as a professional diver.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
So tell me about-
- AGAdam Grant
You know what he was, right?
- TNTrevor Noah
So tell me about the time where you used to be a professional diver.
- AGAdam Grant
Yo, top board. I was up there.
- 19:28 – 21:30
AI Companions and Gen Z Loneliness
- AGAdam Grant
of those would rather interact with their chatbot than with a human. I'm like w- w- that's a problem. We gotta fix that.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm. So is that a problem with... Where's the problem though? Is the, is the problem with the AI, or is the problem with society?
- AGAdam Grant
I think both.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
But I think it's, [laughs] it's easier to teach people new skills for how to vibe, and to explore the psychology of that, that's what I do-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... than it is to get all of the AI, AI companies to change their algorithms and rewrite their bots.
- TNTrevor Noah
What's cool about it is it also felt like you were sharing something that you used in your life. D- like-
- AGAdam Grant
Constantly
- TNTrevor Noah
... like you, yeah, you, you, you talked about how, you know, you were awkward. You're trying to get over this awkwardness. You, you, you'd struggle to like talk to people. You would figure out like how do I fit in, how do I not fit in. And then you chose magic, which is like a terrible choice in my opinion.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
But for getting girls.
- TNTrevor Noah
Terrible choice as well.
- SPSpeaker
For getting girls.
- AGAdam Grant
Bad.
- TNTrevor Noah
Which girls are you getting?
- SPSpeaker
Are you telling me that girls would not love a guy who can bend a spoon and pop a card out of their sleeve?
- AGAdam Grant
My own wife told me she hates magic. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Everyone loves the-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, man
- AGAdam Grant
... the wow experience. Nobody wants to hang out with the person who created it.
- TNTrevor Noah
That's the thing, yes.
- SPSpeaker
Really?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. The thing is there, it's cool. No one wants to like go home with the magician.
- AGAdam Grant
Nope. Nope.
- SPSpeaker
No one want to go home with...
- TNTrevor Noah
Ah, bro, nah
- SPSpeaker
... Siegfried and Roy?
- 21:30 – 25:30
Introverts, Extroverts, and the Lemon Juice Test
- AGAdam Grant
and Brian is also a shy introvert, and he was electrifying, and he would just drop these little, these little nuggets.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I remember him coming to class one day and saying, "Did you know that in the morning if you sprinkle lemon juice on your tongue, the more you salivate the more likely it is that you're an extrovert?"
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And I'm like, "What?" And he's like, "No, no, no. No, actually it's the reverse. The introverts salivate, salivate more."
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs] I like that.
- SPSpeaker
That is brilliant.
- TNTrevor Noah
But then, but, but you see, like, stuff like that is, is-
- SPSpeaker
Like getting corrected is... [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
No, but, but stuff like that is crazy to me, that you can repeat that and prove it.
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, this is what-
- TNTrevor Noah
Lemon drops on the tongue.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Introverts will salivate more. Do we know why, by the way?
- AGAdam Grant
We think, so I think we need more research to unpack it, but we think that introverts are more sem- sensitive to stimulation. And so a bright light, a loud sound, uh, you know-
- TNTrevor Noah
Noise
- AGAdam Grant
... something sour.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Just-
- TNTrevor Noah
And, and that's probably why they are introverts, because the world is overstimulating them. Okay, this actually makes a lot of sense.
- SPSpeaker
And the opposite for extroverts.
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, extroverts have the opposite, so they're less sensitive, which is why they s- they love loud music. Uh, they'll seek out bigger groups because that's stimulating. It's also why extroverts are more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD, because they are... They need more stimulation to get to the same level of engagement.
- TNTrevor Noah
Huh.
- AGAdam Grant
Is one theory, anyway.
- SPSpeaker
Huh. This is crazy.
- TNTrevor Noah
You see, now we're in the class.
- AGAdam Grant
I mean-
- TNTrevor Noah
Do you see what he's just done?
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
We w- we weren't even in the class, and Adam took us into the class. That's how good his lecture was. Look at us now. We were in that class being like, "What? Tell us more."
- 25:30 – 31:26
Why Charisma Books Make You Less Charismatic
- AGAdam Grant
Eugene was afraid for a second.
- TNTrevor Noah
Adam-
- SPSpeaker
No.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Adam was like, "My AI, I didn't pay full subscription for."
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Now it's turning on me. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs] No, you, but you know what I mean.
- AGAdam Grant
Trevor's like, "I have a friend."
- TNTrevor Noah
Uh, no, man, you know.
- AGAdam Grant
He's been reading about How to Win Friends and Influence People.
- TNTrevor Noah
No.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
No, but, but-
- AGAdam Grant
He's, he's lost his mojo
- TNTrevor Noah
... [laughs] but, but you get what I'm saying. Like, th- like, because, because there are so many books that'll tell you-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... how to do things.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
How to be natural, how to be charismatic, how to be this, how to be that, how to be that. And then sometimes what happens is the people go into the real world and then they're thinking of the thing.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, yeah, it is.
- TNTrevor Noah
You remember when that, that dating book was, the pickup artist book was big.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh.
- TNTrevor Noah
What was it called?
- AGAdam Grant
The Game.
- TNTrevor Noah
The Game.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Neil Strauss.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. And then every guy was now like, "First thing I must do is neg. Let me begin my journey with a peacock. Peacock into an IOI, indication of interest. And now I will neg. And now I will..." She's like, "What are you doing, bro? What are you doing?" And then it g-
- SPSpeaker
Hm
- TNTrevor Noah
... it got so, it was such a parody of itself.
- 31:26 – 38:00
Three Types of Vibe: Allies, Pals, and Companions
- AGAdam Grant
of, so.
- TNTrevor Noah
So, like, Black, Indian.
- AGAdam Grant
No. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Trevor.
- TNTrevor Noah
Sorry.
- AGAdam Grant
Friend, family-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh
- AGAdam Grant
... coworker.
- TNTrevor Noah
Sorry, sorry, sorry.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Hey, man, apartheid, man. I'm sorry, man. Sorry, Adam.
- AGAdam Grant
The stereotypes are strong in this one.
- TNTrevor Noah
My bad, man.
- AGAdam Grant
What, what?
- TNTrevor Noah
My bad, my bad, Adam. Sorry, sorry.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay, so you started off with people in categories.
- AGAdam Grant
That's what we all do, right? [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
All right. Sorry, sorry. Carry on.
- AGAdam Grant
How d- It's like how do you know this person?
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay, got it.
- AGAdam Grant
You met them at work.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
They're blood relatives.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes, yes.
- AGAdam Grant
You know, or you-
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay
- AGAdam Grant
... we, we hang out, we met in school, whatever, right?
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- 38:00 – 48:33
Why Relationships Fail: Mismatched Expectations
- TNTrevor Noah
I feel like I have fewer-
- AGAdam Grant
So do I
- TNTrevor Noah
... pals than ever before. I feel like I don't have allies in my life. And to be honest with you, other than, like, my parents maybe, I don't have any companions. Like, like, what am I supposed to do with this?"
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. So the, I think the so what of this is I think we need a new language of connection.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And I think we need a new language because this becomes a-
- TNTrevor Noah
Dothraki.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- TNTrevor Noah
A new language.
- AGAdam Grant
If that helps you.
- TNTrevor Noah
I was gonna say-
- AGAdam Grant
I don't speak Dothraki
- TNTrevor Noah
... I was gonna say discernment, but carry on, Dothraki.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
You know what? I, I, I-
- TNTrevor Noah
We were both using a D, so-
- SPSpeaker
Ah
- TNTrevor Noah
... this is why we are, mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
I'm go- I'm going Lannister direction here.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
And you know what they say, Lannister always pays his debt, man.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] It's true.
- TNTrevor Noah
Another D.
- SPSpeaker
Re- well.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
That's a reliable ally.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
You can count on that.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, okay.
- 48:33 – 54:10
Are Trevor and Adam Pals or Allies?
- AGAdam Grant
Okay.
- SPSpeaker
You're not going on a long journey together. It's not like you've known each other for 10 years, therefore you're not companions. But right now there's so much fun. It's, it's like a game. It's happening, and it's interesting. And also has room for other people to jump in and out of it.
- AGAdam Grant
Trevor, what do you think we are?
- TNTrevor Noah
I would say we are predominantly pal. So if, you know, the thing had, like, its levers that go up and down, it's zero companion.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
We are predominantly pal. And then tiny bit ally
- AGAdam Grant
So interesting. I had the opposite on those two.
- TNTrevor Noah
What do you have?
- AGAdam Grant
Hey. I, I thought of you as an ally with a little bit of pal energy mixed in.
- TNTrevor Noah
Now tell... Now this is fascinating. You see? You see now?
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
This is what things are gonna crumble between us. Let's, let's go wide.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
I have got-
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, this is, this is literally the first conversation I've had about this. So I, one of the, one of the open que-
- TNTrevor Noah
Wait, this is, this is, this is, we're breaking ground
- AGAdam Grant
... this is my first Vibe interview.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, man.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Uh, uh.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay, let's do this.
- AGAdam Grant
This is virgin territory.
- TNTrevor Noah
Let's do it.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
But one of the things I have been wondering about is w- in romantic relationships, we have rituals to define what we are.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
We do the define the relationship.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
The DTR.
- 54:10 – 1:04:15
Social Media Needs an "Interested" Button
- TNTrevor Noah
but that's what it didn't say. So for me-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... that's an, uh, I think something that could improve social media-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... is if they expanded-
- AGAdam Grant
Me, too
- TNTrevor Noah
... on the buttons so that I can say, "Hey, I'm engaged by this."
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- TNTrevor Noah
It made me think.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
I don't agree. But I don't hate it. I don't dislike it.
- SPSpeaker
In this world of doom scrolling, I wanna be having such conversations with myself for every post.
- TNTrevor Noah
My man, just like for, you're doing it already.
- SPSpeaker
Eh, eh, that's a poll, my man.
- TNTrevor Noah
You're doing it already.
- SPSpeaker
I'm not interested. The fact that they've even added interested and not interested button is too much work for me, because I was like, you know what showed that I'm not interested?
- TNTrevor Noah
You didn't like it.
- SPSpeaker
When I scrolled it.
- TNTrevor Noah
Dang, Eugene.
- SPSpeaker
You know what, though? This, no, I don't want to be told.
- AGAdam Grant
This is such an easy solve. Like, click with your, with your right finger or your first finger if you're approving and liking.
- SPSpeaker
No, that's a hard solve.
- AGAdam Grant
And your left-
- SPSpeaker
Now I'm thinking, now I'm like, wrong finger
- AGAdam Grant
... or swipe right or left. I don't know.
- SPSpeaker
I wrong fingered.
- TNTrevor Noah
No, no, no.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, because sometimes I'm scrolling and I'm on a date.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay. Okay, I've got an, I've got an easier one for you.
- 1:04:15 – 1:07:15
Love Is Blind and Reading People
- TNTrevor Noah
Say what you want, the silhouette is saying something.
- SPSpeaker
Yes, but also, I would, I would also-
- TNTrevor Noah
If it was Love Is Blind-
- SPSpeaker
I would, I would-
- TNTrevor Noah
... you know what they wouldn't be on the other side?
- SPSpeaker
Wait.
- TNTrevor Noah
Anything. Why did they say love is blind? It's not bli- they should say love is blurry.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Because it's not blind. Do you get what I'm saying?
- SPSpeaker
Or, yeah, 100%. I-
- TNTrevor Noah
Love is, love is back lit. That's a better name for that show.
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's not blind.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Love is back lit.
- SPSpeaker
Love is poorly lit.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's not back, it's not back lit at all. You're like, "Yo, bruh, you, you're making a lot of assumptions." You know how many times I've watched that show?
- SPSpeaker
No, I've never seen Love Is Blind.
- TNTrevor Noah
You've never seen it?
- SPSpeaker
So tell me what happens.
- AGAdam Grant
Love takes place at dusk and dawn only.
- TNTrevor Noah
That's what...
- SPSpeaker
What happens?
- TNTrevor Noah
Hey, my friend, so what happens is they bring people, you know, in, into a room, whatever. They're like, "Okay, we're gonna put you together. You're gonna meet random people." So, you know, Eugene is sitting down, and then a random lady comes and walks up behind, like, a, a screen. All you see is the silhouette.
- SPSpeaker
Silhouette.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. And then you're like-
- SPSpeaker
So the red light challenge, but they don't dance.
- TNTrevor Noah
There you go. Then it's like, "Hello." Then she's like, "Hi, I'm Cynthia." "Oh, hi, I'm Eugene."
- SPSpeaker
Do they, it's kinda like Voice as well.
- TNTrevor Noah
"Oh, Eugene." No.
- SPSpeaker
Or can they-
- 1:07:15 – 1:16:05
How to Start Natural Conversations
- TNTrevor Noah
How do, how do we figure this out? How do we- Figure out what people want-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... and what's actually gonna work, and where people land and where they don't land. Like, you and I, I, I thought pal, ally. You thought ally, pal.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I was like straight on pal.
- TNTrevor Noah
So now which direction? Do we need to adjust our, just the labels, or do we then realize that we have a different definition of what the other's supposed to be doing?
- AGAdam Grant
I, I, I didn't have a preference in this case, right? I think you're a great ally and pal. I'd have no idea if you'd be a good companion or not, but for me, at least.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, okay. For you.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, and vice versa.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
But I think that, like, one of the best, one of the best notes I ever got after meeting somebody, uh, happened last year. Um, we met at a conference, and then she wrote me an email and said, "I hope this is the beginning of a real friendship."
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And what I loved about it was she wasn't overclaiming. She wasn't saying, "I'm so glad we became friends."
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And then I would have to wonder, are we friends?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes. Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
"I hope this is the beginning of a real friendship," she was saying, "I would like to build this." I read that and thought, "I wanna know what kind of friendship." If she had said, "I hope this is, you know, the beginning of, of a great pal connection-
- TNTrevor Noah
Right
- AGAdam Grant
... or I hope this is the beginning of becoming great allies or companions," that would've given me much more clarity. So do you, would you actually do this?
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm. Hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Would you, would you have this conversation?
- TNTrevor Noah
Well, I'll tell you this. If somebody sent me an email or I sent someone an email after I met them at an event, and I was like, or a text or whatever, "Hey, great meeting you. I hope we become friends one day," and then they responded, "What type of friends?"
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
I would promptly block them and carry on living my life.
- AGAdam Grant
But what if they send those three categories-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... and a box next to each of them to tick?
- TNTrevor Noah
Well, because the book hasn't come out, I wouldn't know what they're talking about.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
But now that I've read the book, I would assume pal is the easiest-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- 1:16:05 – 1:23:21
Why Effortless Connections Fizzle
- AGAdam Grant
the... Because this has happened to a lot of people. I think a lot of people meet someone, they get along, they do something, they, they're like, "Wow, I made a new friend." And it's like, "No, you made a new ally." Yes. And then you're like, "This is so weird. We worked together for, like, three months on this project, and I never-" Yeah ... heard from them again." Yeah, because you were allies, and then now you start questioning yourself. You start questioning- Mm ... them. "Did I mean nothing to them?" Yep. "They don't even text me. They don't call me." But on the other side, this person's getting texts from you like, "Hey, buddy, what's up?" And you're like, "Who is this p- You know we just worked for three months together," and now they're like, "Yo, buddy, what's up?" And- Mm ... so I think that's actually, just from my perspective, I think that's where some of the biggest breakthroughs will come for people because it allows you to understand what you are experiencing in your life- 100%. Makes a lot of sense ... and not just be, like, sort of a victim to it. Yes. And also, you're not a bystander to- That's nice, yeah ... what the catalyst is doing. You're almost becoming a, a catalytic, catalyst converter. Yes. Yes. So whatever they start, you convert it. And then also, we must never feel shame to extrapolate what we need from that catalyst. Yes. Oh, interesting. Yes. I have enough pals. I'm fine, thank you. That is, that is a much less awkward version of the conversation than, like, "I don't wanna be friends." [laughs] Yeah. Right? Or just ghosting- Oh ... the person. Yeah. I, my, my pal calendar is full. [laughs] Yeah. You know, I, I could have actually used that. I had a, I had an experience years ago with a colleague, uh, who was known as extremely bright but kind of manipulative. And- My kind of guy. [laughs] No. No. Watch out. Watch out. Joking. I'm joking. Uh- Call me. Call me. [laughs] Voldemort. [laughs] Yeah, really tricky because people would occasionally enlist his expertise, but then they wanna, they wanna maintain some distance. Yeah. One day he invited me and my family over for dinner. Hm. And I'm like, "Oh, no, I don't, I don't wanna be pals, definitely not companions with this guy. I, I don't even really wanna be allies with him. I wanna keep him at arm's length." And so I just, I told him we were busy. He didn't, he didn't accept that, and then he then issued another invitation and said, "Bring your kids." And I was like, "Oh, our kids are young. Yours are grown." And I, whatever excuse I gave, he said no. And finally I said, "I'm trying to get better at saying no. Thank you for the practice." Damn. You said that? I said that. Cold-blooded. Damn. He laughed, and we've been sort of- Yeah ... cordial ever since. Yeah. Nothing bad- Damn. Yeah. Yours is better. I don't have room for pals in my life right now. Yeah. It's better. Yeah. So when you have that inbuilt catalytic converter, you're like, "I've- I'm full. I'm fine. I don't... No, it's okay. I don't, it's not you, certainly not me, but the roster's full. Our team is not enlisting new players. We don't sign names." But, but is that true, though? Yeah. Ah, I don't know. I think I'll disagree- No ... on that. Tell us. How many pals is enough pals? How many allies is enough allies? How many companions is enough companions? And I mean this honestly. Like, I'm sure at many stages of my life if you said, "Do you have space for a new pal?" I'd be like, "No, I don't. I've already got, like, how many friends I've already got." And in a good way, there's too many friends. I've, I've already got so many friends. And then I'll meet a person and go, "Yo, this person-"
- TNTrevor Noah
... has just become, like, one of my biggest pals. Yeah. This person has become one of my biggest allies, but I genuinely would have said to you, "I, I am full. There's no more space. There's no more..." How, how do, how do we figure... Okay, like, look at us for an example, right? You, what, what you said earlier, "Oh, you guys are comedians," whatever. When Eugene and I met, we didn't hit it off. We didn't... We weren't, like, best friends all of a sudden. We weren't like, "Yo, this guy, I get along with." No. People said, "You gotta meet each other. You gotta meet each... Oh, you'd love this guy, you'd love this guy. Oh, you'd meet him. You, you'd like each other's comedy really." Actually, that's all they were saying. Mm. "Oh, there's a guy you'd enjoy. There's a guy you'd enjoy." Okay, fine. We started literally the same week, so that's it. When we met, I was like, "Damn, I love this guy's comedy." He was like, "I'll tolerate this guy's comedy." [laughs] We, we- Oh, no, no. [laughs] ... we vibe in comedy. No, but we, we vibed, right? Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
We vibed. We did not all of a sudden jump into, like, a bromance and- Mm. We were great colleagues. We were, like, good allies in that way. We had a good time together. We- Mm. We shared experiences. We commiserated. We... And over time, the, the pal side of the thing evolved. Yeah. And then I would argue, we became more pals than allies. Mm-hmm. And then now it's like, yeah, we can do ally things together, and then pal things together, and ally. You get... And even companion things. Mm-hmm. But, but what I'm saying is, like, how, how do we... I, I know what you mean about integrators and what do you call them?
- AGAdam Grant
Segmenters.
- TNTrevor Noah
Segmenters. Segmenters.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right. But how do we not get stuck thinking that the frameworks are rigid-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... and how do we signify or indicate what the, the parameters could or could not be, or will or what would not be? And how does the other person even know or not know? Mm. How does that not leave us feeling even more ostracized-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm ... than we were before?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I think it's a really good question. I don't, I don't know. I just study this. Good luck.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs] Oh, that's a good one. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
No, no, I, I gave a thought on it.
- TNTrevor Noah
What, what... [laughs] Oh, I love that Adam. K- knowing, for example, if, if you're saying I've got enough of this, it's the difference between I'm a scumbag that's having an affair in my marriage- Yeah ... versus I'm a serial cheater. I've just got with one person that's outside of my thing. Okay. But I'm not dating five-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay ... five people at the office. Okay. Just, just one, guys. Okay. If, if... [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
If that helps you, Eugene.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, you're like, "I know myself." [laughs] "I can't, I can't have five girlfriends." [laughs] "But one I can manage." Oh, man.
- AGAdam Grant
All right, so-
- TNTrevor Noah
What a crazy analogy.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, that, that... [laughs] Did not expect you to go there.
- TNTrevor Noah
That is such a crazy analogy. A very thin line between philanderer- Yeah, but- ... and cheater ... yeah, but, but this is what I'm trying... You've, you've said this to me, and I genuinely appreciate it as a- Yeah ... as a line. You always remind me of this. You go, "Yo, your capacity to love is infinite." You know what I mean? Mm. Your capacity-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Like, you, we, we genuinely think we only have room for this many people. Mm-hmm. And then if you're lucky, you, you know, you step into a birthday of yours, you, you know, you're at an event, you're wedding, whatever it might be, and you're like, "Damn, I..." It's only when you have to make those lists that you're like, "I know a lot of people." Mm-hmm. In a beautiful way, and a lot of people are in my life. Yeah. Right? But, but what I'm saying is how, how does it help people who feel like they don't have that?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Maybe they have a lot of companions-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... but they don't have pals, and they don't have... Maybe they don't have any. Maybe they're just, like, they're just lonely. Like, to, to your students.
- 1:23:21 – 1:25:44
Admin Night: Changing Rituals for Connection
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs] Not enough prey. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I was thinking more the introverts are paired off in the corner-
- TNTrevor Noah
That is true
- AGAdam Grant
... trying to escape.
- TNTrevor Noah
That is true, yes.
- AGAdam Grant
And the extroverts are dancing on the table.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah. Those are the hunters. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Probably.
- TNTrevor Noah
"So what are you doing here?" "Ah." [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
"Ah, I was trying not to be noticed." [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Exactly.
- TNTrevor Noah
"I've noticed you in the corner." "No, that's what the corner is for." [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
"I came here specifically so that you wouldn't speak to me." [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, goodness. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. So let's, let's change the rituals.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Let's say, okay, we're gonna gather a bunch of people to watch the World Cup.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay. Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
And inevitably, there's gonna be a stoppage time, or there's gonna be a break in the action, and we're gonna end up having a conversation. Um, maybe what you do is you actually create an event with different norms. Um, one of, one of my favorites is, um, have you guys come across Admin Night?
- TNTrevor Noah
No. Mm-mm.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, I think this is so great. Uh, you know how everybody has boring tasks that they have to do-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... and you don't wanna do, like taxes and retirement planning?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Um, there's a, a group of people who gather, and they all bring their boring tasks, and they do them together.
- TNTrevor Noah
No. What are you talking about?
- AGAdam Grant
They call it Admin Night.
- 1:25:44 – 1:30:00
Meeting Strangers: Side by Side vs Face to Face
- TNTrevor Noah
me. I don't know anybody. I don't even know where to begin on this journey. Uh, how, how do I start?" From the research, what have you seen that creates more than just a fleeting-
- AGAdam Grant
Hm
- TNTrevor Noah
... "Hey, hey, hey, how you doing? How you doing?" "Oh, good, good, good."
- AGAdam Grant
Hm.
- TNTrevor Noah
How do you go beyond that i- into any of the meaningful categories?
- AGAdam Grant
So I think ideally what you do is you first say, "Do I wanna start a conversation or do I wanna start an activity?"
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
'Cause those are, those are two different paths, right?
- TNTrevor Noah
You either like that-
- AGAdam Grant
We can either be face to face or side to side.
- TNTrevor Noah
Ooh.
- AGAdam Grant
Those are the two choices.
- TNTrevor Noah
Unless you're Eugene, uh-
- AGAdam Grant
Eugene [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
... then you're face to face and side to side. Uh-
- AGAdam Grant
Eugene is cheekbone to cheekbone
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
With your chameleon eyes.
- TNTrevor Noah
What I, what I like about-
- SPSpeaker
Okay, wait, wait, wait. What, what-
- TNTrevor Noah
I like that one
- SPSpeaker
... what's the significance of that?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, um, side by side is, is more conducive to being allies, right? We're gonna, we're gonna be looking at something together and we're gonna do a shared task. Face to face is more companionate. We're gonna have a real conversation. We might go a little bit deeper.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. And, and also what I like about that, people who struggle meeting strangers is because they don't realize that they've got a pattern that doesn't allow for interruption. So you have to become an interrupter in your own life to be able to notice something that is an interruption that's good for you. So for example, people who are very ritualistic struggle to meet people, struggle to make a connection with a stranger. They go in there, they buy a matcha. When someone greets them and is not a person behind the counter-
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay, I understand what you're saying now
- SPSpeaker
... yes, but if you-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I understand what you're saying
- SPSpeaker
... disrupt your own self, do it at a different time, do it at a different place-
- 1:30:00 – 1:36:30
Why First Impressions Can Be Wrong
- AGAdam Grant
Oh. Oh, that's so interesting. What a great question. I think, okay, I, I, I think I know better data on the latter than the former.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay, go. Go with the latter then.
- AGAdam Grant
But, but I wanna, I wanna talk about both 'cause I think they're so interesting. I think that the mistake we make on the former, the people that we started out vibing with and then we lose it, is we don't work on the relationship because it came too easily to us. It clicked. It was effortless. We just expect it to always be that way, and so we don't have hard conversations where we give honest feedback. We don't make an effort to s- schedule time with that person. We just kind of assume we can pick up where we left off, and then the relationship fizzles or resentment builds. I think that's the most common path. What do you think?
- TNTrevor Noah
You, yo, that was like a-
- SPSpeaker
Mic drop situation.
- TNTrevor Noah
It truly was.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Because I-
- AGAdam Grant
It's a hunch
- TNTrevor Noah
... I had never thought of it through the lens of it was so easy and natural to begin with, that when it stops being that, you feel like it's not working as opposed to you going like, "Oh, this is when you have to start working"-
- AGAdam Grant
Yes
- TNTrevor Noah
... in, in that way.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And so people just go like-
- AGAdam Grant
Exactly
- TNTrevor Noah
... "Ah, I, I thought I liked them."
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I must have been wrong about them.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. Yes, yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Or they've, they've changed.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah. That's what people say.
- AGAdam Grant
Or I've, I've outgrown them.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And the reality is no, you didn't learn how to work on that relationship. You didn't know that in a real relationship, conflict actually bl- brings you closer. Because if you have a, if you have a true connection with somebody, the fact that they took the time to give you some constructive criticism or tell you something they were upset about is an investment in the relationship. They're saying, "I care about you. I care about us."
- TNTrevor Noah
I care about you enough to have a conflict with you.
- AGAdam Grant
To work through this. Yeah, to go through the awkwardness and the discomfort And you don't do that if you just kind of slid into a natural rhythm the day you met.
- TNTrevor Noah
Don't press anything. We've got more What Now? after this.
- AGAdam Grant
So for years, psychologists said, if we wanna help people, um, get along better in romantic relationships, we need to train them in emotional intelligence, conflict resolution skills.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- 1:36:30 – 1:39:03
Shared Intensity Bonds People, Not Suffering
- AGAdam Grant
facilitate, right? We have to create those moments. But I think a lot of people think that adversity is the key to doing that. Fraternities and sororities, hazing.
- TNTrevor Noah
That's essentially-
- AGAdam Grant
We're gonna suffer together.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes. That's essentially what they're trying to manufacture.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes, but I think they're, they're missing the boat. It's actually not shared suffering that causes people to bond more quickly.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
It's not adversity, it's intensity. It's the fact that you are feeling something strong. It's deep emotion. It's a transformational experience that brings people closer together. So something bad doesn't have, have to happen. You just need to have strong emotions that then you connect to the other person around.
- TNTrevor Noah
But also, I think there's, um, there's, there's telling signs of how a friendship started, which is the foundation-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... that people ignore once the found- once the relationship is, gets going. For example, there's people who would say, I, I think everyone leads every relationship that they get into that's a, that's gonna turn long-term into anything-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... with their own preconceived notion, their own prejudices-
- AGAdam Grant
Yes
- TNTrevor Noah
... and their own view of life that was formed way before you. So ultimately, when someone says to me, "I didn't like you at first, but over time, I like," my foundation is skepticism, pessimism, doubt, and preconceived notion. That's what we started with. That's the foundation of our relationship.
- AGAdam Grant
Ooh.
- TNTrevor Noah
What it turned out to be is something else. But there's other times where the person says, "From the first time I met you, I knew we were gonna hit it off." If me and that person over time don't get along, I know what our foundation is.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
So none of it is a surprise. So what we often do is-
- AGAdam Grant
Ha
- TNTrevor Noah
... we choose to adopt a version of this foundation that we like the most, but it's not a foundation. It was just a wall that peaked out of the foundation.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh.
- TNTrevor Noah
Just happened to be the first-
- AGAdam Grant
It just happens to be the first piece of the-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. The first piece that is visible.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. It's a puzzle piece.
- TNTrevor Noah
And it's also visible to everyone that we can go-
- AGAdam Grant
Okay
- TNTrevor Noah
... complain to about the thing not working-
- AGAdam Grant
All right. All right, right
- TNTrevor Noah
... because it's visible.
- 1:39:03 – 1:41:11
The Foundation of Every Relationship
- SPSpeaker
over the foundation, then there's the layer that lies underneath-
- AGAdam Grant
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... which the wall was built on. The one on top everyone can see, then we can have our friends, family agreeing with what is visible, but the one underneath is the one that both of us, the people, the catalyst of this problem-
- AGAdam Grant
That's interesting
- SPSpeaker
... can both know that the other people will never know.
- AGAdam Grant
That's so interesting. It, it makes me think of, it actually connects to something that I've been thinking about ever since I finished writing the book.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
Which blew my mind.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
Can I tell, can I tell you a quick story about it?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, please. Oh, yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
It's actually gonna be an experiment, but it's a story about an experiment. So for years, psychologists said if we wanna help people, um, get along better in romantic relationships, we need to train them in emotional intelligence, conflict resolution skills.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
We need to teach them how to fight better.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And then, uh, a group of psychologists led by Riggio, uh, in case you were curious, Trevor.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Um, they, uh, I, I'm not gonna make you suffer through all the details.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
But basically, uh, they said, "What if, what if we do something different? What if we compare the relationship skills building courses that, you know, every couple probably should do and no one really-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... wants to do with something different?" And they do something different that's way less work and just as effective.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
E- even three years later, the couples are less likely to get divorced after going through this different experience.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, so here's your curiosity gap.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, man. Tell me.
- AGAdam Grant
What was the different experience? The different experience is you agree that once a week you're gonna watch a romantic comedy with your partner, and you're gonna spend an hour talking about it afterward. And that, just agreeing to watch a romantic comedy once a week for a month, is as effective in keeping you together three years later as if you actually got trained on how to resolve conflicts. So what's going on there? Here's, here's my, my explanation. I think what's happening there is, first of all, you get into pal mode.
- SPSpeaker
Yep.
- AGAdam Grant
Right? We're, we're laughing. We're watching-
- 1:41:11 – 1:45:03
The Romantic Comedy Experiment for Couples
- AGAdam Grant
thing the couple did on screen?"
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
"Like, w- we're not that bad, but-
- SPSpeaker
Right. Right, right
- AGAdam Grant
... here's something we can take away from that." And I wonder, like I wonder if this is something that more people could do. This, this applies to all kinds of relationships.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
We don't have to start the, like the conflict or the fight by saying, "All right, we need to talk," right? [laughs] What we can do is say, "Hey, let's, let's, let's do something fun together, and then let's talk about what this means for us."
- SPSpeaker
Yes. Absolutely. The best way to learn something quicker and minimize damage or collateral damage is to run a simulation.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
War games, pilots do this all the time.
- AGAdam Grant
Yep.
- SPSpeaker
Also, when couples... 'Cause remember that before there was structured entertainment, couples would be friends with each other just to run a simulation of what the other couple is doing-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... that they shouldn't be doing. Now we have television, now we have social media.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
We can run the simulation together as many times as we like to avoid the thing that will make us adversaries in the end, but if we don't know why we're doing this thing, then there's a problem. Because the initial feeling that drew you to one person out of-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... the billions of people in the world, if you don't remember that, then there's no point to this whole thing. There's no point. You can run the simulation all you want, but all of the people that you run the simulation with, whenever you wanna have a connection with them, you must always ask them, "How did you guys meet?" They'll disagree on it. They will laugh. They, if, they will, there's never a wrong answer-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
- SPSpeaker
... whenever people are asked a coup-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... 'cause one will get the anniversary date wrong-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... but n- the one will not ask for a divorce because they'll actually laugh and go, "No, no, no, no, no."
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, that's not the first time we met.
- SPSpeaker
You know, actually. Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
But now they are talking to each other and you because you found a common thread between the two of them-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... which was the foundation. But people don't do that with each other. You run the simulation, and then you forget to have that anchor point at the beginning of how did this whole movie just start?
- 1:45:03 – 1:49:16
Shared Experience Beats Talent in Teams
- TNTrevor Noah
fascinating. Um, one, you said they show golfers who don't share the same, um, political views play worse together. Why?
- SPSpeaker
Interesting.
- AGAdam Grant
So I don't think we know for sure, but the follow-up research that's been done suggests that when you are with somebody who's of the opposite political party, it throws you off your game a little bit.
- TNTrevor Noah
But, but, but, but, but what is this... Is it because you know? Is it because you say it? Is it because of your vibe? Is it, what, what is happening?
- AGAdam Grant
I, I think what happens is you, you're worried about, like, am I gonna offend this person?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Are they gonna say something offensive?
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And you're spending extra energy managing the emotions and trying to figure out how to walk on eggshells in the-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, but it's subconscious
- AGAdam Grant
... in the relationship. Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... the person doesn't know that they're even-
- AGAdam Grant
I don't know. I, they may be aware of it in some cases, they may not, but yeah. Like, the, just the, the feeling that we might not vibe is enough to disrupt my focus and lead me to golf worse.
- TNTrevor Noah
Pilots who are flying together with a, a crew that they're unfamiliar with, who are all completely qualified, are more likely to be in a catastrophic crash. That's also in the book. Why?
- AGAdam Grant
So people, so I think actually the best evidence on this is from a NASA simulation, where they get well-rested crews who've never flown together, and then they compare them with tired clu- crews. Sorry, let me try that again. They compare them with tired crews who have just come on a, off of a, a three-day-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... duty together.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
The tired crews who have flown together make fewer deadly mistakes than the rested crews that have never flown together.
- TNTrevor Noah
Wow.
- SPSpeaker
Makes sense.
- AGAdam Grant
Just a little bit of shared experience is enough to build a vibe, right?
- SPSpeaker
Makes so much sense.
- AGAdam Grant
As, as we fly once or twice together, we learn each other's strengths and weaknesses, we build effective routines.
- TNTrevor Noah
We fill each other's gaps.
- AGAdam Grant
Exactly.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
And guess what? Like, this is the overlooked dynamic of every great sports team. The New York Knicks just won the NBA championship.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- 1:49:16 – 1:55:39
The Coldplay Debate: Personal Integrity at Work
- TNTrevor Noah
let's make, let's make-
- AGAdam Grant
Do you want me to start with my case?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, let's make it a sl- clean slate.
- SPSpeaker
So this is the Coldplay-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... infinity-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes, so let's make it a clean slate
- SPSpeaker
... Chris Martin camera moment.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
This is not about Coldplay at all.
- SPSpeaker
At all, no.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes. No.
- AGAdam Grant
I think that that moment raised a question for a lot of people.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Should we care about what a leader does in their personal life?
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And the evidence I've read convinces me the answer is yes.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
So there was an Ashley Madison data leak a few years ago.
- TNTrevor Noah
Uh-huh.
- AGAdam Grant
Where people who are-
- TNTrevor Noah
That was the affair website, right?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
That's, that's the adult dating website where people-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... can pay to find other people who wanna-
- TNTrevor Noah
But it was specifically affair driven, wasn't it?
- 1:55:39 – 2:07:03
Drunk Driving vs Sober Accidents
- TNTrevor Noah
it's the other way around. This is just me as Trevor.
- AGAdam Grant
Whoa.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, I'll tell you why, because I go, like, this is my thing, and this is just, like, a crazy little rabbit hole that I always go down in my head, is I go, if the government makes it legal to consume alcohol-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... and the government knows that alcohol impairs your ability to make decisions correctly-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm. Oh
- TNTrevor Noah
... then the government cannot now say that you should be held more accountable for a mistake that happened, 'cause remember, you did not intend for the action to occur.
- SPSpeaker
Yes, a mistake, culpable.
- TNTrevor Noah
You, yes, you made a mistake while you were inebriated.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, Trevor.
- TNTrevor Noah
That's the thing. No, no, no, wait, wait. So listen, listen to what I'm saying. So-
- AGAdam Grant
I see where you're going.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, so, so what I'm saying is it's the same way, 'cause here's what's interesting. If you sign a contract when you are drunk-
- SPSpeaker
It's not valid
- TNTrevor Noah
... it's now not enforceable-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... by that same government.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
But the government now doesn't hold you accountable for the contract that you signed, but I'm like, this, guys, this is a mismatch to me. The government says you chose to drink and then drive-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
... so you should be held accountable. I actually agree with that. But then I go, but then why is it that if somebody chose to drink and then sign a contract, the contract's not enforceable?
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, as a social scientist, I have three problems with that argument.
- TNTrevor Noah
I love, this is why I love you, Adam.
- AGAdam Grant
It's an interesting argument.
- TNTrevor Noah
This is why I love you.
- AGAdam Grant
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Let's go.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. Number one, the easy one. Uh, that only holds in a world pre-Lyft and Uber. It's so easy for people to get a ride.
- TNTrevor Noah
Not financially. It's a big difference financially for somebody.
- AGAdam Grant
Maybe.
- 2:07:03 – 2:09:31
Person-Environment Fit and Legal Constructs
- SPSpeaker
See-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... as a friend, this is what we have to go through.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
No, but it's true.
- SPSpeaker
Hey, Eugene, what's up?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Pray to God. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
But it's true, though. You know I've said this to you.
- SPSpeaker
Not happy birthday.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yo.
- SPSpeaker
No?
- TNTrevor Noah
Pray to God-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
... you were born in the time-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... that suits you.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Because if you were born in a time when, like, fighting and hunting and like, but that was, like, like necessary, no one was calling you agro back then.
- SPSpeaker
No, no, no.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
You get what I'm saying?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
If you were born in a time-
- AGAdam Grant
There was, there was, there was p- what's called person-environment fit.
- TNTrevor Noah
There you go.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, I like that.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, I love that. Person-environment fit.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. You're, you're basically selected... Excuse me. You don't have to adapt to the environment because you've been selected for it.
- SPSpeaker
You're built-
Episode duration: 2:22:31
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