Adam Grant Gives Trevor An Intellectual Wedgie! - What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

1. 0:00 – 0:50

   Naked workouts, gym myths, and welcoming Adam Grant

   1. TNTrevor Noah0:00

      That's the only way I get back into, like, sort of shape, is I, I have to put weights next to my bed. That's literally what I'll do.

   2. AGAdam Grant0:09

      Do you go to sleep in your gym clothes, too?

   3. TNTrevor Noah0:10

      No, no, no, no. I- 'cause you, you ... Uh, this is actually a myth. You don't need gym clothes to work out. This is a complete fallacy. You can do it naked. It works just as well. In fact, it makes me feel like I'm, like, in, like, ancient Greece or something. Yeah, there's like a moment where you lift a weight above your head-

   4. AGAdam Grant0:24

      [laughs]

   5. TNTrevor Noah0:25

      ... and you're completely naked, and you're just like, "Yes, I am Spartacus."

   6. AGAdam Grant0:30

      [laughs] [upbeat music]

   7. TNTrevor Noah0:36

      This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. [upbeat music] It's fun having you. Welcome, welcome to the podcast.

   8. AGAdam Grant0:49

      I'm excited to be here.

2. 0:50 – 2:02

   What an organizational psychologist actually studies

   1. TNTrevor Noah0:50

      Yeah, man. I'm really happy to have you here because, like, like, I, I love how you think, but then I also love the science behind how you think. Some people know your books or y- your TED Talks. But what I've noticed is some people know you as ... Like, they think of you as a, as a researcher. They go, "That's what that guy does." And then some people think of you as, as really a social scientist and a psychologist and somebody who looks at human interactions. W- how would you define what you actually do?

   2. AGAdam Grant1:17

      I, I mean, I guess I'd say I'm an organizational psychologist.

   3. TNTrevor Noah1:19

      Okay.

   4. AGAdam Grant1:20

      And I'm interested in how we can improve the quality of our lives at work and beyond.

   5. TNTrevor Noah1:25

      Is it just, like, business organizations, or any-

   6. AGAdam Grant1:27

      Any kind

   7. TNTrevor Noah1:27

      ... Like, how, how, how big does an organization get before it's no longer an organization?

   8. AGAdam Grant1:31

      I think if it's fewer than two people, it's definitely not an organization.

   9. TNTrevor Noah1:34

      So it's the Lord's rules, basically.

   10. AGAdam Grant1:36

       Maybe.

   11. TNTrevor Noah1:36

       Yeah, 'cause He said that as well. He said what? "When three or more are gathered in my name, then I am in their presence." That's-

   12. AGAdam Grant1:42

       I, I'm gonna take your word for it.

   13. TNTrevor Noah1:43

       Yeah. Well, it's the Lord's, it's the Lord's words.

   14. AGAdam Grant1:44

       I haven't had too many conversations with the Lord, so I can't-

   15. TNTrevor Noah1:45

       Well, it's in the Bible. It's in the ... That's one of my favorite, like, lines in the Bible. I like that the Lord is like, "Look, man. There's, like, two of you. You should probably go to church. If there's three of you, I'll come to you."

   16. AGAdam Grant1:57

       Fascinating. I didn't know there was a biblical theory of team size or gatherings.

3. 2:02 – 3:18

   Collective effervescence: why groups create energy and cooperation

   1. TNTrevor Noah2:02

      Actually, maybe then let me, let me start with asking you that. Is there a science behind the number of people who come together then increasing their ability to connect with something more powerful or spiritual?

   2. AGAdam Grant2:12

      Well, h- thinking out loud, there, there are a couple things that come to mind.

   3. TNTrevor Noah2:15

      Yeah.

   4. AGAdam Grant2:15

      The first one is I'm thinking of Durkheim, the, the founding father of sociology, who wrote about collective effervescence, which is a lot of syllables for the feeling of energy and purpose that you have when you come together in a group for something larger than yourself.

   5. TNTrevor Noah2:30

      Say that again. The feeling of?

   6. AGAdam Grant2:32

      Energy and purpose.

   7. TNTrevor Noah2:33

      That you have when coming together collectively in a group.

   8. AGAdam Grant2:35

      Yeah.

   9. TNTrevor Noah2:35

      For the same reason, though.

   10. AGAdam Grant2:37

       Yes, with a, with a common goal.

   11. TNTrevor Noah2:39

       Oh, I like this. Wait. Is this ... So is this the same as, like, Roman soldiers being able to march further when they were marching together?

   12. AGAdam Grant2:44

       Possibly.

   13. TNTrevor Noah2:45

       Okay.

   14. AGAdam Grant2:46

       Yeah.

   15. TNTrevor Noah2:46

       And do we know why that is?

   16. AGAdam Grant2:48

       I think we know, we know a little bit. There's [laughs] there's actually a hilarious experiment where people had to sing O Canada, uh, either in unison or not, and then they ended up cooperating more afterward if they had been in tune together.

   17. TNTrevor Noah3:01

       Oh, man. Now then it seems like national anthems have a purpose in a weird way.

   18. AGAdam Grant3:05

       They might.

   19. TNTrevor Noah3:06

       Like, beyond just ... I thought it was just, like, a love song to the country.

   20. AGAdam Grant3:09

       Well, I mean, I think you made the case that Sweet Caroline is-

   21. TNTrevor Noah3:13

       [laughs]

   22. AGAdam Grant3:13

       ... better than our national anthem at bringing people together.

   23. TNTrevor Noah3:16

       I think it is. I think it's one of the-

   24. AGAdam Grant3:16

       That was hysterical, by the way.

4. 3:18 – 4:53

   Changing traditions vs. changing minds: when is change good?

   1. TNTrevor Noah3:18

      Thank you very much. I think it's, I think it's one of the, uh, one of the greatest ... I actually think that's what we should do. I think every country should change its national anthem every few years just to, like, keep it fresh and keep it ... like, keep up with the times and the vibes. You know what I mean? And then, you know, like, yeah, like Sweet Caroline could've been a national anthem, I think, for a while, you know?

   2. AGAdam Grant3:35

      How would you choose?

   3. TNTrevor Noah3:37

      Well, you just see what people like. It's like, how do they choose the charts?

   4. AGAdam Grant3:41

      That's ... Th- this would be so much fun.

   5. TNTrevor Noah3:42

      Yeah. I mean, we just listen to the music, and then we go, like, "All right. A new national anthem." You know? It's like, all right, this is ... Taylor Swift has a great one, and then Beyoncé has another great one, and then we just, like, go down a list, and we choose, like, amazing songs. Sometimes you unearth them from way back in the day. You know?

   6. AGAdam Grant3:57

      What I love about this is then you would get people a little bit more comfortable with changing old traditions, and then it wouldn't be a far cry to say we should have a new constitutional convention.

   7. TNTrevor Noah4:06

      Damn. You just took it there.

   8. AGAdam Grant4:09

      I mean-

   9. TNTrevor Noah4:09

      I don't touch the Constitution.

   10. AGAdam Grant4:11

       [laughs]

   11. TNTrevor Noah4:11

       Let me tell you something now, Adam Grant. I want you to know, you don't bring that to my podcast.

   12. AGAdam Grant4:16

       [laughs]

   13. TNTrevor Noah4:16

       The Constitution is the way the Constitution was and always will be. All right? Anyone else who's watching this, you know that I believe in the Constitution.

   14. AGAdam Grant4:24

       [laughs]

   15. TNTrevor Noah4:24

       And it stays the way it should, especially all those amendments.

   16. AGAdam Grant4:26

       [laughs]

   17. TNTrevor Noah4:27

       You don't change those amendments. How dare you? You, you, you're a big fan of change.

   18. AGAdam Grant4:32

       I mean, I, I think that the world changes, and we have a choice about whether we want to evolve with it or whether we want to become obsolete.

   19. TNTrevor Noah4:40

       Okay. So let's, let's try climb this mountain together. Somebody who is pro-change is y- how I assume you are, you know, from reading you, listening to you, et cetera.

   20. AGAdam Grant4:52

       Depends on the change.

5. 4:53 – 9:17

   Values vs. beliefs: separating identity from “being right”

   1. TNTrevor Noah4:53

      Okay, okay, okay. So then let's start with that. When do you, or when do you think someone should change their mind? Because on, on ... Like, I always go, like, you should always be willing to change. And for me personally, as Trevor, I go, I always assume that I could be wrong. It doesn't matter what it is. I just always assume that I could be wrong, and then I go from there.

   2. AGAdam Grant5:10

      Including about that?

   3. TNTrevor Noah5:12

      Yeah.

   4. AGAdam Grant5:12

      Okay. I think that change is not always good, right? We have to be clear about that. Um, sometimes it backfires. Sometimes it has unintended con- consequences. We're living with a lot of them right now, and your show is about that in some ways.

   5. TNTrevor Noah5:25

      Right. Yeah.

   6. AGAdam Grant5:26

      I think, I think the reasons for change are really important. So a lot of people change to gain social approval.

   7. TNTrevor Noah5:32

      Uh-huh.

   8. AGAdam Grant5:32

      And not-

   9. TNTrevor Noah5:33

      Oh, plants.

   10. AGAdam Grant5:34

       Oh, wow. [laughs]

   11. TNTrevor Noah5:35

       Well, I saw that coming, and I couldn't jump quick enough.

   12. AGAdam Grant5:38

       [laughs]

   13. TNTrevor Noah5:40

       Sorry, but well, it's, it's-

   14. AGAdam Grant5:40

       And it's right out of shot.

   15. TNTrevor Noah5:41

       But it's out of shot. Sorry.

   16. AGAdam Grant5:43

       That's hilarious.

   17. TNTrevor Noah5:44

       You, you're gonna just have to leave it for now, I guess.

   18. SPSpeaker5:46

       Yeah.

   19. AGAdam Grant5:46

       We deal with this change. You guys can run with this metaphor here.

   20. TNTrevor Noah5:49

       It's, uh ... Yeah, not all change is good.

   21. AGAdam Grant5:51

       [laughs]

   22. TNTrevor Noah5:52

       That's what you were saying, right?

   23. AGAdam Grant5:53

       I don't know. Maybe that plant needed to go.

   24. TNTrevor Noah5:54

       I didn't know you bring the props. I didn't know you bring props to your interviews.

   25. AGAdam Grant5:56

       I ... You brought the prop.

   26. TNTrevor Noah5:57

       That's, uh, that's really well played.

   27. AGAdam Grant6:00

       Thank you.

   28. TNTrevor Noah6:00

       So, [laughs] so going back. No, no. So going back. Um-

   29. AGAdam Grant6:05

       Why do you change?

   30. TNTrevor Noah6:06

       Yeah
6. 9:17 – 12:23

   Astrology as a case study—and Adam’s ‘logic bully’ confession

   1. AGAdam Grant9:17

      Astrology.

   2. TNTrevor Noah9:18

      Hmm. Astrology. You don't believe in astrology?

   3. AGAdam Grant9:22

      I mean, technically I shouldn't believe or disbelieve, right? I have a set of values-

   4. TNTrevor Noah9:27

      You don't ... Wow

   5. AGAdam Grant9:29

      ... around scientific inquiry, and I think the science casts a lot of doubt on it. [laughs]

   6. TNTrevor Noah9:34

      Okay. Look, okay, I'm, I'm skeptical of astrology, right? But I'm a Pisces, so that's my nature.

   7. AGAdam Grant9:39

      [laughs]

   8. TNTrevor Noah9:39

      Do you know what I mean? But I'm saying like you ... Okay, so let's, let's get into this.

   9. AGAdam Grant9:43

      Are you really a Pisces, Trevor?

   10. TNTrevor Noah9:44

       Yeah, I really am. I really am.

   11. AGAdam Grant9:44

       And do you think that has any meaning?

   12. TNTrevor Noah9:46

       Um, okay, so this is, this is the thing. Do I believe in astrology? No. I, I have this romantic idea that there is a possibility that something did affect people, but I don't necessarily know what it is. Maybe it's January people. Maybe we're like giving it star signs. But I keep thinking like maybe if you're born at the end of the year, you have a different vibe because like you're born around like end of the year. Like people have a different vibe at the end of the year, right? And maybe you live a different life because, you know, I think like Malcolm Gladwell did like some of that work, is like you, you also get into the schooling system at a different time, so maybe you act different, you feel different, you are different. So maybe our star signs are just like a woo woo way of tapping into something that might be scientific. Now, do I believe it tells you what's gonna happen in the next month? No, I don't. But I go like, "Ooh, there's something here."

   13. AGAdam Grant10:35

       So interesting to hear you talk about it. So I think you're, you're talking about it like a scientist would, and what drives me crazy about people's stances on astrology is they come in as preachers, not scientists.

   14. TNTrevor Noah10:49

       Okay, so what, what separates a, a preacher from a scientist?

   15. AGAdam Grant10:52

       So a preacher is basically proselytizing their existing views.

   16. TNTrevor Noah10:55

       Mm-hmm.

   17. AGAdam Grant10:56

       And a scientist is trying to find the truth, not spread it.

   18. TNTrevor Noah11:02

       Okay. So wait. I, I, I've heard you talk a little bit about this before. Let's, let's break down some ... So there's preachers, there are politicians, and then there is-

   19. AGAdam Grant11:10

       Prosecutors

   20. TNTrevor Noah11:11

       ... prosecutors.

   21. AGAdam Grant11:12

       And scientists.

   22. TNTrevor Noah11:12

       Okay, okay, okay. So preachers, you're going out there, you're basically saying, "This is what I believe in, and everyone should believe in it with me."

   23. AGAdam Grant11:18

       Yes.

   24. TNTrevor Noah11:18

       Okay. Politicians?

   25. AGAdam Grant11:19

       In politician mode, basically you're saying, uh, "I'm not even gonna bother to listen to you unless you already agree with what I think."

   26. TNTrevor Noah11:27

       Oh, damn, Okay. And then prosecutor.

   27. AGAdam Grant11:31

       Prosecutor is my biggest problem. So this is what happens whenever someone tries to give me a horoscope, is I start to just smack it down with data.

   28. TNTrevor Noah11:38

       Oh, you, you, like you're a pro- you have a problem being a prosecutor.

   29. AGAdam Grant11:40

       Oh, huge problem.

   30. TNTrevor Noah11:41

       [laughs]
7. 12:23 – 14:47

   Bridging divides with people you care about: ask what would change their mind

   1. TNTrevor Noah12:23

      That's hilarious. Wait. Okay, wait. So now let me ask you this. As an organizational psychologist, as somebody who studies people, that is an instance that a lot of people might be able to laugh at and go, "Man, this is funny. That's hilarious. I can't believe that happened," et cetera. But I feel like in the world we're living in today, as people are getting more access to a more, what I would call like a niche existence, it's your for you feed, it's your algorithm, it's your way of seeing the world. Is there any science or is there a proven way to bridge the gap between yourself and somebody else? Especially, let's start with people you care about.

   2. AGAdam Grant13:05

      Yeah.

   3. TNTrevor Noah13:05

      Someone you care about who holds a view that you, as you said, you would make you launch a rant against them. Like you go like, "I cannot believe you hold this view knowing you as a human being the way I thought I did."

   4. AGAdam Grant13:16

      So ideally what, what you start with is you say, "Okay, I'm feeling this strong temptation to preach and prosecute, and I wanna think more like a scientist here." Don't let your ideas become your identity.

   5. TNTrevor Noah13:27

      Okay.

   6. AGAdam Grant13:28

      So a good scientist would have the humility to know what they don't know and the curiosity to keep seeking new knowledge.

   7. TNTrevor Noah13:33

      Okay.

   8. AGAdam Grant13:34

      And the way you start doing that is you say, "Huh, what an interesting specimen."

   9. TNTrevor Noah13:39

      [laughs]

   10. AGAdam Grant13:39

       I mean, don't say that out loud.

   11. TNTrevor Noah13:41

       Okay.

   12. AGAdam Grant13:41

       But I think that-

   13. TNTrevor Noah13:41

       Okay. I was like, okay, this is not gonna b- help build your friendships. [laughs]

   14. AGAdam Grant13:44

       No.

   15. TNTrevor Noah13:44

       Okay. Okay. Okay.

   16. AGAdam Grant13:45

       No, but the, the more, the more somebody holds a different opinion-

   17. TNTrevor Noah13:48

       Yes

   18. AGAdam Grant13:49

       ... the less you understand about how they think.

   19. TNTrevor Noah13:51

       Okay.

   20. AGAdam Grant13:51

       Even if you're offended by what they think. And that means you have to want to know more. So you've got a couple options. I think the first one is to just establish that two reasonable, reasonable, intelligent people can-

   21. TNTrevor Noah14:03

       Yeah

   22. AGAdam Grant14:03

       ... actually disagree.

   23. TNTrevor Noah14:04

       Yeah.

   24. AGAdam Grant14:04

       And that's okay. A second is, what I love to do is I, I love to ask, and this is, when I remember to do it-

   25. TNTrevor Noah14:09

       Yes

   26. AGAdam Grant14:10

       ... it leads to a much better conversation. Like, "Okay, Trevor, so like you called yourself a Pisces. That's so interesting to me that you would put any stock in something that I think has no evidence behind it. What evidence would change your mind?"

   27. TNTrevor Noah14:22

       Hmm. And then what, what, what happens? What follows?

   28. AGAdam Grant14:27

       Well, usually people start to map out, "Well, this is the kind of study I would need to see." And then they're on my turf. [laughs]

   29. TNTrevor Noah14:33

       Oh, damn.

   30. AGAdam Grant14:34

       I could, I could-
8. 14:47 – 17:36

   The ‘intellectual wedgie’: debunking astrology with psychology and physics

   1. TNTrevor Noah14:47

      Let's try this again in a benign topic. Let's go with astrology. Now, and I'm saying this to you, and I mean this completely honestly, I do not believe in it. However, what would you need from me to accept that astrology might have some merit?

   2. AGAdam Grant15:03

      The first thing I would, I would want you to do is, is to read the science that has convinced me that it doesn't have any merit. So-

   3. TNTrevor Noah15:09

      Okay

   4. AGAdam Grant15:09

      ... I would say let's, let's just throw out a few simple data points.

   5. TNTrevor Noah15:12

      Yes.

   6. AGAdam Grant15:12

      And I'm gonna try really hard not to logic bully here.

   7. TNTrevor Noah15:14

      No, no. Go, go, go. You can't bully me 'cause I'm asking for it.

   8. AGAdam Grant15:17

      So there's a-

   9. TNTrevor Noah15:17

      If I say, if I say pull my underwear-

   10. AGAdam Grant15:19

       [laughs]

   11. TNTrevor Noah15:19

       ... then I'm now a willing participant. There's no bullying here.

   12. AGAdam Grant15:22

       [laughs]

   13. TNTrevor Noah15:22

       This is just two consenting adults, one pulling the other one's underwear up out of their pants.

   14. AGAdam Grant15:27

       Fair.

   15. TNTrevor Noah15:27

       So-

   16. AGAdam Grant15:28

       All right

   17. TNTrevor Noah15:28

       ... please-

   18. AGAdam Grant15:28

       So intellect-

   19. TNTrevor Noah15:28

       ... logic wedgie me

   20. AGAdam Grant15:29

       ... intellectual wedgie. [laughs] Here we go.

   21. TNTrevor Noah15:30

       Yes.

   22. AGAdam Grant15:31

       Um, okay. So there's a psychology piece and then there's a, an astrophysics piece.

   23. TNTrevor Noah15:35

       Okay.

   24. AGAdam Grant15:35

       Where do you wanna go first?

   25. TNTrevor Noah15:36

       Okay, let's go psychology first.

   26. AGAdam Grant15:37

       Okay. So psychology first. So there's a huge study by, um, led by Jackson Lewis at MIT, uh, it's over 160,000 people, where you get their astrological sign-

   27. TNTrevor Noah15:46

       Okay

   28. AGAdam Grant15:47

       ... and then you also have them fill out a, a long personality questionnaire. And it turns out there is literally a zero correlation between any of the signs and any personality trait that you can think of.

   29. TNTrevor Noah15:58

       Wow. Zero?

   30. AGAdam Grant15:59

       Zero. Zero. Like on a one to seven scale, um, like Capricorns and Pisces would come out 5.62 versus 5.63 on how agreeable and friendly they are. And every trait and every sign goes like that.
9. 17:36 – 22:39

   Is it better to be right or to get along? Practicing disagreement to build ‘tensility’

   1. TNTrevor Noah17:36

      No. No. We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break. [upbeat music] Do you think it's more important to be right or do you think it's more important to get along with other people?

   2. AGAdam Grant17:54

      Ideally for me, a healthy relationship is one in which people recognize great minds do not think alike. They challenge each other to think again.

   3. TNTrevor Noah18:01

      Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

   4. AGAdam Grant18:02

      And if we can't question e- each other and we can't disagree, then we actually don't have a lot of respect for each other.

   5. TNTrevor Noah18:07

      Oh, that's interesting.

   6. AGAdam Grant18:09

      Like, I don't respect your ability to learn and your willingness to consider different views if I'm not open to putting something out there that you might object to.

   7. TNTrevor Noah18:19

      You know, it's, it's funny. In, in, um, in one of the episodes we had Gerard Carmichael on And we're talking about his TV show and how he came out as gay, and he'd been struggling to get his family to accept him as an openly gay man. And one of the things we disagreed on, and we're still friends, but one of the things we disagreed on is how he went about it. So he went slamming it in their face, showing my mom, "This is my boyfriend," showing my dad, like, pics of my boyfriend in his underwear, and you know what I mean. Now, personally, personally as Trevor, I don't agree with that, and I get where Gerard's coming from, and he said, like, "This is the only way I could get my family to change." He knows his family better than I do.

   8. AGAdam Grant19:02

      Mm-hmm.

   9. TNTrevor Noah19:02

      So I go like, "All right. I'll defer to you." But the thing I said to him was, "I find..." I'm not a scientist, nor am I a psychologist, but I find one of the biggest things that hurts us in society today is that we... It's sort of like we, um, how can I put it? If we spend all our time butting up against the thing that, that, that we disagree on, I was f- I almost feel like we form a callus with each other as human beings.

   10. AGAdam Grant19:29

       [laughs]

   11. TNTrevor Noah19:29

       And then that becomes the thing that we meet on every single time. "Well, well, if it isn't Mr. Pisces." "Ah, if it isn't Mr. Science."

   12. AGAdam Grant19:37

       [laughs]

   13. TNTrevor Noah19:38

       And now I no longer see you as Adam, and so I, I sometimes wonder, and maybe, maybe you've got, you know, something to back this up, or maybe I'm wrong. I sometimes wonder if the key to bridging those divides is not by hitting them head-on, but it's by fortifying the other parts of our, of our connection that make us more likely to trust each other in the parts where we don't get along. Does this make sense?

   14. AGAdam Grant20:03

       It makes a ton of sense. This is fascinating. Okay, so I have a couple reactions. First one is, uh, a callus protects your hands.

   15. TNTrevor Noah20:11

       Okay.

   16. AGAdam Grant20:11

       Right? So it's, it's a buildup of, I don't even... What is it?

   17. TNTrevor Noah20:15

       I guess it's just-

   18. AGAdam Grant20:16

       Skin

   19. TNTrevor Noah20:16

       ... skin that, yeah, dies and, I don't know.

   20. AGAdam Grant20:18

       [laughs]

   21. TNTrevor Noah20:19

       I'm, I'm not a anything, but yeah.

   22. AGAdam Grant20:21

       But it, it, it prevents you from bleeding, right?

   23. TNTrevor Noah20:24

       Right.

   24. AGAdam Grant20:24

       'Cause there's a, there's a protective layer on there.

   25. TNTrevor Noah20:26

       Mm-hmm.

   26. AGAdam Grant20:26

       And so I, I actually wonder if the opposite is true. If we, if we invested in other parts of our relationships-

   27. TNTrevor Noah20:32

       Yeah

   28. AGAdam Grant20:32

       ... we would increase, uh, there's a term for it, actually. It's called tensility, um, which I had never heard. Um, my mentor, Jane Dutton, gave me the term. It's, it's basically the c- the carrying capacity of a relationship.

   29. TNTrevor Noah20:43

       Oh, I like that.

   30. AGAdam Grant20:44

       Um, so yeah.
10. 22:39 – 25:58

    Trevor’s ‘third thought’ theory and learning nonconformity

    1. TNTrevor Noah22:39

       What, what do you think that is? I have an idea, but I'd love to know what you think that is.

    2. AGAdam Grant22:42

       Well, I wanna hear your hunch before I, I tell you what I think 'cause I've-

    3. TNTrevor Noah22:45

       Okay, so I-

    4. AGAdam Grant22:45

       ... I've been thinking about this for a long time

    5. TNTrevor Noah22:46

       So, okay, so here's what I think it is. I think the reason children who grow up in houses that are a little more argumentative might be a little more creative is because they're existing in an environment where there isn't one way to think, and so what happens is they're both stumbling on what I like to call third thought, right? I had this i- like, this idea when I was working on The Daily Show with my team, and I'd say, "I think everyone has a thought," right? And then, like, you can have a second thought even by yourself, but I think there's this elusive third thought that can only come from two different thoughts clashing together and forming a third thought that isn't from one specific place.

    6. AGAdam Grant23:24

       Yeah.

    7. TNTrevor Noah23:24

       And so I think if you are watching people who don't agree as a child, people who you generally love or you care for, et cetera, you are listening to a person, and you are agreeing with them maybe or just seeing their point of view. You're looking at another person, agreeing with them, and seeing their point of view. And then maybe you are holding both, including a third, which might be yours, which is another opinion of it, and that might force your brain to think of more things than just the things that exist, which I think is what creativity fundamentally is.

    8. AGAdam Grant23:57

       I love this. Okay, so, so your theory is cognitive complexity comes from seeing people argue.

    9. TNTrevor Noah24:02

       Okay.

    10. AGAdam Grant24:02

        That you don't default to-

    11. TNTrevor Noah24:03

        I need to remember all the... You, you make, like, some of my ideas sound way smarter and fancier than they are, which I like. Cognitive complexity, write that down. All right. All right.

    12. AGAdam Grant24:10

        I, I just give you terms for things you already know.

    13. TNTrevor Noah24:12

        Okay, okay, okay, cool.

    14. AGAdam Grant24:13

        I also think you learn to be a nonconformist through that same process.

    15. TNTrevor Noah24:17

        Oh, interesting.

    16. AGAdam Grant24:18

        That instead of just defaulting or deferring to whatever an authority figure tells you, you realize, well, there are two different authorities in the room, and they don't agree. And you, I, I think that can both lead to cognitive complexity, but it can also lead to more courage when it comes to challenging the status quo 'Cause there's not a right answer coming from above

    17. TNTrevor Noah24:37

        There is not one coming from above.

    18. AGAdam Grant24:39

        Yep.

    19. TNTrevor Noah24:41

        You know, it's funny you say this. My mom is very religious, extremely, extremely religious, but I also think she is one of the most progressive thinkers I've ever come across in my lifetime. And one thing I always noticed as a child was how sometimes she would disagree with the sermon that the pastor gave when we'd leave church. And I'd be like, "Huh." And I'm just a kid, I'm just sitting in the passenger seat listening. And she goes, "I didn't agree with that. Mm-mm. I didn't, I didn't, I, I, I hear where the pastor was coming from, but I think he was, he, that, that story of Joseph is not about..." And then she'd go into her thing. And, and then I'd be like, "But he's the pastor." And she's like, "Yeah, he's a guy who reads the Bible."

    20. AGAdam Grant25:22

        He's not God.

    21. TNTrevor Noah25:22

        Yeah, but he's not God. She's like, "We also have the Bible." And it was an interesting way for me to view even religion is going like, huh, don't assume that the person who stands on the pulpit has like-

    22. AGAdam Grant25:35

        All the answers

    23. TNTrevor Noah25:35

        ... a monopoly on knowledge.

    24. AGAdam Grant25:37

        Yeah.

    25. TNTrevor Noah25:37

        You too have the book that you can read. And so now that makes me wonder now, I'm like, huh, was that part of me w- you know, w- okay, I like this.

    26. AGAdam Grant25:46

        I, I like it too. I mean, you can see both of those effects playing out.

    27. TNTrevor Noah25:48

        Yeah, yeah, definitely.

    28. AGAdam Grant25:49

        You're, you're not just gonna assume that the pastor's answer is gospel.

    29. TNTrevor Noah25:53

        Right.

    30. AGAdam Grant25:53

        And then you're also not gonna be afraid to question what somebody in power says.

11. 25:58 – 28:40

    Parenting for debate and growth: asking kids for feedback (and the smartphone boundary)

    1. TNTrevor Noah25:58

       So how do you... If you're a parent, you're a parent. I've met your daughter actually. One, one of my favorite things I've, I've encountered is you arguing with your daughter.

    2. AGAdam Grant26:09

       I don't even remember this.

    3. TNTrevor Noah26:09

       You don't remember this? It was really fun. So, um, I don't remember what it was about. I wish I did. But the two of you were having a discussion and she said, "I think it's this." And you said, "Why do you think it's that?" And you're like, "I don't know if, I don't know if I agree with you." And then I was like, "Actually, I agree with her," and I really did.

    4. AGAdam Grant26:24

       I wasn't trying to stir shit or anything. [laughs]

    5. TNTrevor Noah26:26

       She had a, a respect for you, but not like a, not like a fear. So have you, have you encouraged that in your daughter? Have you gone like, "Hey, argue me," like on everything? Or how does, or does she just see it from you?

    6. AGAdam Grant26:37

       [laughs] I, I, I've tried to encourage it, but it, it's gonna happen whether I do or not.

    7. TNTrevor Noah26:41

       Right. Because she j- I'm assuming she just observes this.

    8. AGAdam Grant26:43

       Yeah. I mean, she sees me getting things wrong all the time, and so how can you not speak up about that?

    9. TNTrevor Noah26:48

       Oh, I like that.

    10. AGAdam Grant26:48

        But I will say, you know, so you haven't met my wife Alison, but, uh, during COVID we did something that we'd never tried before, which is we said, "Okay, we wanna, we wanna create a household where our kids are willing to, you know, constructively disagree and debate things. We also wanna raise a family in which, um, you know, they, they can admit their mistakes and not be ego defensive about what they did wrong."

    11. TNTrevor Noah27:12

        Hmm.

    12. AGAdam Grant27:13

        So we're gonna, we sat down at family dinner one night and we said, um, "We're gonna go around and each say something we wanna do better, and then we're gonna ask everybody else to give us notes basically-"

    13. TNTrevor Noah27:24

        Mm-hmm

    14. AGAdam Grant27:24

        ... "on how we can improve." And we did it first. And we, we anticipated some of what our kids told us, not everything, but it, it was, it was such a powerful conversation because I think for the, I, I'd never thought to do this before, although, like we do this at work all the time, right?

    15. TNTrevor Noah27:40

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    16. AGAdam Grant27:41

        Like bosses are supposed to ask their, their teams, "How can I improve?"

    17. TNTrevor Noah27:44

        Right.

    18. AGAdam Grant27:44

        Um, I'd never seen parents do that actively with their kids before. And one of the notes [laughs] that, that Joanna gave me was that I needed to be less stubborn. And I was like, "I literally just published a book-"

    19. TNTrevor Noah27:56

        [laughs]

    20. AGAdam Grant27:56

        "... about changing your mind." And then Elena jumped in and was like, "You need to think again, Dad."

    21. TNTrevor Noah28:02

        Oh, that's funny.

    22. AGAdam Grant28:04

        And I was like, "Oh, who am I writing this book for? It's for me, because I need to internalize my own message." But I, I do think that, look, some, some people, like they think this is, you know, gentle parenting gone overboard.

    23. TNTrevor Noah28:16

        Mm-hmm.

    24. AGAdam Grant28:16

        Like I don't wanna ask my kids how I can be a better parent.

    25. TNTrevor Noah28:19

        Yeah.

    26. AGAdam Grant28:19

        I'm like, I don't know a better way to model to them that we're all works in progress, and we all get things wrong, and we all have to work on ourselves than that.

    27. TNTrevor Noah28:28

        Was there something th- where you like disagreed and you were like, "Nope, I don't agree with your assessment"?

    28. AGAdam Grant28:33

        Yes. Uh, when we got to the when we should all have smartphones.

    29. TNTrevor Noah28:37

        Nice. Nice.

    30. AGAdam Grant28:39

        Had to set a boundary there.

12. 28:40 – 32:02

    Smartphones, ‘de-phonifying,’ and why willpower isn’t enough

    1. TNTrevor Noah28:40

       Now, okay, so now let's talk about that boundary, 'cause I think a lot of parents will relate to this. Your kids go, "Hey, I think you're wrong about us not having smartphones." You go, "Nope, we, we do not think that we're wrong." Like how are you making that decision and what are you basing it on?

    2. AGAdam Grant28:56

       Well, I think, look, I think the evidence is really messy and there are lots of conflicting findings. Even some of the, the most knowledgeable experts on this topic don't agree-

    3. TNTrevor Noah29:05

       Yeah

    4. AGAdam Grant29:06

       ... on what policy should be. I think that two things jumped out at me. The first one is, um, there was a study showing that the, the earlier kids got smartphones, um, the younger they were when they got their first one, uh, the lower their self-esteem, um, the more emotional challenges they faced-

    5. TNTrevor Noah29:22

       Wow

    6. AGAdam Grant29:22

       ... even going into young adulthood. Now is that, is that causal? We don't know. Um, it could be that parents who were lax were lax in lots of different ways. But that's concerning to me.

    7. TNTrevor Noah29:33

       Damn.

    8. AGAdam Grant29:34

       And then there was just a great, um, a great experiment in Scandinavia showing that when smartphones were banned from schools, uh, kids not only got better grades, but they also had better relationships.

    9. TNTrevor Noah29:46

       Hmm.

    10. AGAdam Grant29:46

        And their social skills improved more. And so I think there's enough evidence to suggest that there are aspects of smartphones that may not be a net positive for kids that-

    11. TNTrevor Noah29:56

        Mm-hmm

    12. AGAdam Grant29:56

        ... like [laughs] a flip phone or a watch is probably good until high school.

    13. TNTrevor Noah30:00

        Yeah. Like I'm, so, so I'm on, I'm on a journey of trying to de-phonify my life right now.

    14. AGAdam Grant30:06

        How's that working for you?

    15. TNTrevor Noah30:07

        It's actually going well. So, so what I've realized is the, the gift of the modern smartphone is, is also its curse, and it's that everything is in one place. And so I'm not saying it is bad, but I just go the collection of everything is actually a curse at times, you know? So it's like imagine if your, imagine if everything that you kept in your house food-wise w- was in the exact same place. I mean, like cake, cupcakes, milk, eggs, bread, uh, you know, beans, you name it, but it was all in the same place. Think about how much more likely you would be To eat a bag of Doritos if, like, it was in the fridge.

    16. AGAdam Grant30:45

        [laughs]

    17. TNTrevor Noah30:46

        Do you know what I mean?

    18. AGAdam Grant30:46

        Yeah.

    19. TNTrevor Noah30:46

        And so, like I, I think there's like a weird thing. We, we've even done this as humans where we've gone like, "All right. That's the snacks cupboard." So you know that if you open that, there'll be snacks. But if you put the snacks everywhere else, there's a high likelihood-

    20. AGAdam Grant30:57

        You're gonna get sucked in

    21. TNTrevor Noah30:57

        ... or a higher, I think, that you're gonna get sucked in. And-

    22. AGAdam Grant30:59

        Yeah

    23. TNTrevor Noah30:59

        ... and I think the same thing goes for the smartphone, right? Is like we, we have this thing-

    24. AGAdam Grant31:02

        This is really good

    25. TNTrevor Noah31:03

        ... and you go into one part of it, and then all of a sudden you're in another part of it, and you're like, "Wait, uh, what, what, what, how did I get here? What was I doing? How did I..." So I, what I'm trying to do right now is I'm trying to de-phonify my life. So I go, I have the phone. I understand that. But what are the elements of the phone that I can try take out of the phone so that I don't have to take the phone out? Do you know what I mean?

    26. AGAdam Grant31:21

        Yeah. And then y- your friends don't lose you to your text or your email-

    27. TNTrevor Noah31:24

        Exactly

    28. AGAdam Grant31:24

        ... or Instagram.

    29. TNTrevor Noah31:25

        Yeah, the look down.

    30. AGAdam Grant31:26

        Yeah.
13. 32:02 – 36:25

    Motivation vs. willpower: wants, shoulds, and the marshmallow test remix

    1. TNTrevor Noah32:02

       Professional psychologist just said it. [upbeat music] Don't go anywhere, 'cause we got more What Now? after this. [upbeat music] Is it true that willpower, like, i- is, is a finite resource?

    2. AGAdam Grant32:19

       It's a, there's a huge debate about that. I think my read of the evidence, and I, just to be clear, um, I didn't buy a lot of the evidence when it was coming out.

    3. TNTrevor Noah32:27

       Okay.

    4. AGAdam Grant32:27

       So I, this could be confirmation bias. But I think that what looked like ability is actually motivation. So let me give you a classic example of this.

    5. TNTrevor Noah32:35

       Go.

    6. AGAdam Grant32:36

       All right. So this is, this is an old, old experiment.

    7. TNTrevor Noah32:38

       Okay, go on.

    8. AGAdam Grant32:38

       Uh, not, not today's standards of rigor. But people are brought into the lab, and they have to just write endlessly-

    9. TNTrevor Noah32:45

       Okay

    10. AGAdam Grant32:45

        ... for hours and hours and hours. And you're told that you're, you're supposed to write until you can't anymore, essentially.

    11. TNTrevor Noah32:52

        Hm.

    12. AGAdam Grant32:52

        So your hand is too cramped.

    13. TNTrevor Noah32:53

        Okay.

    14. AGAdam Grant32:54

        And you finish writing.

    15. TNTrevor Noah32:55

        Yeah.

    16. AGAdam Grant32:56

        And then you have to sign a form to get paid. And no one complains that their hand hurts while they sign the form. It's a little context switch. And this task that was impossible to you, that you had exhausted your self-control to keep doing-

    17. TNTrevor Noah33:09

        'Cause you said you cannot write anymore

    18. AGAdam Grant33:11

        ... you can't. You're done. Oh, sign this thing? Oh, no problem. Didn't even cross my mind. And so I think what a lot of us have called willpower is actually just motivation. It's not self-control. It's a question of, do you want this outcome? Does it matter to you? Are you excited about it? And if the answer is yes, you're gonna find the willpower.

    19. TNTrevor Noah33:31

        So then are you saying that the motivation exerted upon us by snacks or junk food or social media is more powerful than the motivation that the gym exerts on us?

    20. AGAdam Grant33:44

        In the moment, yeah.

    21. TNTrevor Noah33:45

        Yeah, yeah.

    22. AGAdam Grant33:45

        Because the-

    23. TNTrevor Noah33:45

        Like in that-

    24. AGAdam Grant33:46

        Yeah. Psychologists would say that the, the snacks are a want and the gym is a should.

    25. TNTrevor Noah33:50

        Okay.

    26. AGAdam Grant33:50

        And the wants are, they, the wants exert a greater pull than shoulds do. But we can outsmart the wants by making the shoulds, um, built into our habits or by making the wants less tempting. I think that other people play a huge role in this too. So, um, you know the, the famous marshmallow test?

    27. TNTrevor Noah34:09

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    28. AGAdam Grant34:10

        So the original version is, uh, we put a marshmallow in front of you. You're a toddler.

    29. TNTrevor Noah34:14

        Yes.

    30. AGAdam Grant34:14

        And you're told you can have it now, but if you're willing to wait a little while, then you get two marshmallows.
14. 36:25 – 42:03

    Dehumanization, in-group love, and counterfactual empathy to reduce polarization

    1. TNTrevor Noah36:25

       And then the question I have for you is, how do we then overcome that in society? 'Cause we see it in everything, right? In America, we're getting to a point where Republicans and Democrats no longer see each other as human beings.

    2. AGAdam Grant36:39

       Mm.

    3. TNTrevor Noah36:39

       You know? You take it everywhere. You take it everywhere. You know? Israel-Palestine is a great example. And one thing that always strikes me is when I talk to friends, especially from the region, is they'll be like, "Man, we're a lot more similar than you guys think we are from the outside."

    4. AGAdam Grant36:53

       Yeah.

    5. TNTrevor Noah36:53

       "And this is a lot more, like, heinous for us as human beings than, you know, people sort of play around with it." And I, I... So I wonder, is there, like, a way to improve that? Or is there a way to understand why we do or don't see somebody as being a kid in the other room who might get a marshmallow?

    6. AGAdam Grant37:11

       Oh, there, there, there's so many things we could think about there. First one is Li- Lee Ross did this experiment years ago, before it was nearly as polarized as it, as it is now. But it was Israel and Palestine at the time.

    7. TNTrevor Noah37:23

       Yeah.

    8. AGAdam Grant37:23

       It was a test of allegiance. Uh, so people are, people who are strongly either pro-Palestine or pro-Israel are presented with peace plans, uh, from the other side. And the question is, how do they feel about them? And they're also presented with plans from their own side. And it turns out the content of the plan is irrelevant. What matters is what group you think created it. So if you're pro-Palestine-

    9. TNTrevor Noah37:45

       Right

    10. AGAdam Grant37:45

        ... you're more excited about the plan that Is- Israelis came up with if it was labeled a Palestinian plan than you are your own country's plan-

    11. TNTrevor Noah37:53

        Yeah

    12. AGAdam Grant37:53

        ... if it was labeled an Israeli plan.

    13. TNTrevor Noah37:54

        Right.

    14. AGAdam Grant37:55

        And I think that really just speaks to your point about both in-group loyalty and out-group distrust or maybe even dehumanization.

    15. TNTrevor Noah38:04

        So we feel if we think the idea's coming from somebody that we don't trust or somebody that we don't feel holds the same values as we do as a human, we're less likely to take on that idea.

    16. AGAdam Grant38:14

        Throw it out. I think most psychologists would tell you that, uh, the majority of prejudice is driven not originally by out-group hate, but by in-group love.

    17. TNTrevor Noah38:27

        Oh, wait, wait, say more about that.

    18. AGAdam Grant38:29

        Well, I think the, the classic finding is that, like, people will, they'll, they'll attach to a group-

    19. TNTrevor Noah38:34

        Yeah

    20. AGAdam Grant38:34

        ... when they have the, the most minimal and trivial cues of groupness. Uh, like, you know, you can, you can just put people in a room together and say, "Come up with a name for your group," and all of a sudden that group is good. And any group that's not us, well, we have to treat them a little bit differently.

    21. TNTrevor Noah38:50

        It's that simple.

    22. AGAdam Grant38:51

        It, it often is. We see it happen all around us. So one of the things Tim Kandra and I did a few years ago was we said, "Okay, part of what people don't think about is they think about the group that they belong to as, um, as part of their essence."

    23. TNTrevor Noah39:06

        Mm-hmm.

    24. AGAdam Grant39:06

        "It's who I am."

    25. TNTrevor Noah39:07

        Mm-hmm.

    26. AGAdam Grant39:07

        But if you run the counterfactual, it's very possible you could have belonged to a different group.

    27. TNTrevor Noah39:12

        Right.

    28. AGAdam Grant39:13

        So we started out with a really simple example. We did, um, Red Sox and Yankees fans, given that that's one of the most intense rivalries in American sports.

    29. TNTrevor Noah39:19

        It is indeed.

    30. AGAdam Grant39:20

        What we did was we said, uh, "We want you to just, uh, write about what it would be like if you're a Yankees fan to have grown up in Boston." And then they're less nasty to the other side after doing that.
15. 42:03 – 52:57

    Binary bias, the Heineken ad, purple election maps—and repairing friendships after rifts

    1. AGAdam Grant42:03

       I think it's not a coincidence, as you said, that this is happening around the world.

    2. TNTrevor Noah42:06

       Yeah.

    3. AGAdam Grant42:07

       And I think that it's happening around the world in a context of perceived scarcity and fear of loss.

    4. TNTrevor Noah42:13

       Oh, yeah.

    5. AGAdam Grant42:14

       So the, the American version is this is the first generation on record that is not gonna be better off than their parents. And you, if you're sitting around worrying about that all the time, it is really appealing to have somebody who tells you, uh, "I alone can fix this."

    6. TNTrevor Noah42:30

       So from a psychology standpoint, how do we fix it?

    7. AGAdam Grant42:34

       The Heineken commercial is a good start.

    8. TNTrevor Noah42:36

       [laughs] I'm sorry?

    9. AGAdam Grant42:37

       You've seen the Heineken commercial, right?

    10. TNTrevor Noah42:39

        Which one?

    11. AGAdam Grant42:40

        There, there was, there was just a, a massive experiment where I think psychologists submitted at least two dozen different interventions to try to bridge divides.

    12. TNTrevor Noah42:47

        Okay.

    13. AGAdam Grant42:47

        And the Heineken commercial beat all of them

    14. TNTrevor Noah42:50

        The commercial

    15. AGAdam Grant42:50

        The commercial. Yeah. Can we pull it?

    16. TNTrevor Noah42:53

        This one?

    17. SPSpeaker42:54

        I would describe my political views as the new right. I'd say like I'm left.

    18. TNTrevor Noah42:59

        So it's a four-minute Heineken ad where essentially they bring people together, they play us their, I guess, main belief.

    19. SPSpeaker43:06

        If somebody said to me that climate change is destroying the world, then I'd say that is total piffle.

    20. TNTrevor Noah43:11

        You know, I'm anti-trans, I'm a feminist, uh, I hate feminists, et cetera, et cetera.

    21. SPSpeaker43:17

        To transgender, it is very odd. I am a daughter, a wife. I am transgender.

    22. TNTrevor Noah43:26

        They put the people who have the opposing beliefs with each other, then they give them a series of tasks to complete, and then they s- expose to them the main belief that other people have that I guess differs, and then they agree and they sit down and they have a beer.

    23. SPSpeaker43:40

        Even if you wanted to, to convince people about your point, the productive thing to do would be to sit down, have a beer- It's engage. Just engage I've been brought up in a way where everything's black and white. But life isn't black and white. Yeah, life would just be ...

    24. TNTrevor Noah43:54

        Now let's go back to what you said th- the ad itself?

    25. AGAdam Grant43:58

        Yes, this is the amazing thing, is you don't have to go and have the beer or build the box with the person. You just have to watch the ad. It's enough to reduce your prejudice against the other side.

    26. TNTrevor Noah44:09

        Huh. Why do we think that is?

    27. AGAdam Grant44:12

        Well, I think what's, what's happening, and you can, you can actually hear some of it in the video, is we're confronting binary bias, which is the basic tendency that people have to oversimplify a complex world into two categories.

    28. TNTrevor Noah44:22

        Okay.

    29. AGAdam Grant44:23

        Um, you know, Republicans bad, Democrats good.

    30. TNTrevor Noah44:26

        Right

Episode duration: 52:58