Arthur C. Brooks: Why Humans Are So Bad at Being Happy

Speaker 0:00 [upbeat music] I've often thought one of the worst things that happened to society was a series of movies, whether it was kids movies or adult movies, rom-coms-

Speaker 0:15 Rom-coms

Speaker 0:15 ... but that were happily ever after. Like, they, they ended at the moment where the people met.

Speaker 0:21 See, here's the problem-

Speaker 0:21 And I, I always wondered what that did to people's brains growing up in a world where they went like, "Oh, if you meet the person you love, that's the end." And then it's like, this is it.

Speaker 0:31 That's right.

Speaker 0:31 Like, w- w- what is that-

Speaker 0:32 That is the same idea. Pac-Man did that to us as well.

Speaker 0:34 [laughs] I never finished Pac-Man.

Speaker 0:35 Remember? Th- those, they meet, and then do-do. Miss Pac-Man and-

Speaker 0:37 Yeah, but I've never, I've never seen the end of Pac-Man.

Speaker 0:39 Yeah. Yeah. So-

Speaker 0:40 I saw Junior Pac-Man, so I know h- what they did, but I don't know-

Speaker 0:43 But there's no, there's-

Speaker 0:44 Is there a Junior Pac-Man?

Speaker 0:45 Yeah, Junior Pac-Man happened for sure. Junior Pac-Man.

Speaker 0:46 There was Junior Pac-Man.

Speaker 0:47 Junior Pac-Man.

Speaker 0:47 Yeah, Junior Pac-Man. So I knew that-

Speaker 0:48 Like baby Pac-Man

Speaker 0:49 ... yeah, like a tiny little Pac-Man, had a little bow, and then the pickety-picky, but like a tiny little Pac-Man.

Speaker 0:52 So was a girl Pac-Man.

Speaker 0:53 Yeah, there was a boy and a girl.

Speaker 0:54 And a girl to-

Speaker 0:55 There was a boy and a girl.

Speaker 0:55 Ms. P- Ms.- Ms. Pac-Man.

Speaker 0:56 No, there was Ms. Pac-Man.

Speaker 0:57 No.

Speaker 0:57 But then there was also Junior Pac-Man.

Speaker 0:58 Yeah. Junior Pac-Man. Good to know.

Speaker 0:59 Yeah, no, no, they m- they-

Speaker 1:00 The whole family

Speaker 1:00 ... yeah, Pac-Man had-

Speaker 1:01 I like these family values in video games like this.

Speaker 1:03 Yeah, no, Pac-Man did it, bruh. I was like, "Okay."

Speaker 1:05 Yeah, Mario and Luigi did it well.

Speaker 1:07 Yeah. They were brothers, bruh.

Speaker 1:08 They were, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:08 Did you mi- mixing up the story.

Speaker 1:09 Yeah, they were family members.

Speaker 1:11 Oh, yeah, they were. They were.

Speaker 1:11 They were siblings. My, my kids, my kids are, you know, they'd be, they'd be like, "What are these guys? Pac-Man? What are they talking about?"

Speaker 1:16 Okay, Elden Ring. Fine, we'll bring in Elden Ring.

Speaker 1:17 Super Mario?

Speaker 1:18 We'll go Call of, Call of Duty. We'll go, we got every game covered here. You-

Speaker 1:21 [laughs]

Speaker 1:21 You tell us the generation-

Speaker 1:23 I don't know

Speaker 1:23 ... and we've got you.

Speaker 1:24 Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1:24 We've got you.

Speaker 1:25 But, yeah. All right.

Speaker 1:26 We got you. It doesn't matter what it is. [upbeat music] This is What Now? With Trevor Noah. [upbeat music]

Speaker 1:46 Yeah, no, no. I mean, that's, so you're on, you're on tour all the time.

Speaker 1:50 Not on tour, but just, like, life takes me, you know? I've had the gift and the curse of planting, you know, many trees in many different places.

Speaker 1:58 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:59 So oftentimes they call me to go and tend to them.

Speaker 2:03 Right.

Speaker 2:04 This is not a euphemism for families, Eugene. Please.

Speaker 2:06 Mm-mm. Yeah, I know.

Speaker 2:07 Please.

Speaker 2:07 How many children do you have? [laughs]

Speaker 2:08 No, y- I, Eugene was about to.

Speaker 2:11 I was like-

Speaker 2:11 Please, Eugene. I have zero. None of these things. Oh, yes.

Speaker 2:17 Yeah.

Speaker 2:17 Ah.

Speaker 2:19 Do you speak Zulu? I th-

Speaker 2:21 I, I turns out I don't. [laughs]

Speaker 2:22 [laughs]

Speaker 2:22 Turns out I don't. [laughs]

Speaker 2:25 Because the way you, the way you turned like, "Yeah."

Speaker 2:27 It's like I l- yeah.

Speaker 2:28 Like, yeah, yeah. You were like, "Yeah."

Speaker 2:29 No, it's a, I got a, my gr- my grandparents-

Speaker 2:32 Yeah

Speaker 2:32 ... my gr- uh, my great-grandparents actually, they, they, they were Danish.

Speaker 2:36 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:36 And they had this, they believe the Holy Spirit spoke to them that they should go become missionaries, Lutheran Missionaries to the Zulus-

Speaker 2:45 No way

Speaker 2:46 ... in South Africa.

Speaker 2:46 No ways.

Speaker 2:47 Yeah. And they didn't speak a word of the Zulu language, which is problematic.

Speaker 2:51 Big problem.

Speaker 2:52 But they knew-

Speaker 2:53 They must have been at least speaking-

Speaker 2:53 ... that the Holy Spirit would teach them the Zulu language.

Speaker 2:55 Yeah, there. There

Speaker 2:56 ... and He didn't. And He didn't.

Speaker 2:59 There.

Speaker 2:59 And so they-

Speaker 3:00 Holy Spirit was like, "Tuolingo for who?" [laughs]

Speaker 3:02 So they left after 10 months-

Speaker 3:04 Wow

Speaker 3:04 ... and they came. They didn't go back to Denmark. They came to the United States and started a farm in So- in South Dakota.

Speaker 3:10 Do you understand-

Speaker 3:11 That's amazing

Speaker 3:11 ... how this one moment in t- if your grandparents-

Speaker 3:16 Mm-hmm

Speaker 3:17 ... just learned Zulu, you could've been South African.

Speaker 3:20 Mm.

Speaker 3:20 This would've been a totally different conversation now.

Speaker 3:22 Completely different conversation, and you and I would've had, you know, these sort of parallel...

Speaker 3:28 This is wh- I mean, look at this connection. The other day, I was at Carnegie Hall, and I was thinking you fell off the stage-

Speaker 3:33 I did

Speaker 3:33 ... at Carnegie Hall.

Speaker 3:34 You heard about that?

Speaker 3:34 Yeah.

Speaker 3:35 Yeah, yeah. I did.

Speaker 3:36 What happened?

Speaker 3:37 That was my Carnegie Hall debut.

Speaker 3:38 [laughs]

Speaker 3:38 It was beautiful. I was 22.

Speaker 3:41 What happened?

Speaker 3:42 I was, um, doing my Carnegie Hall debut in chamber music.

Speaker 3:46 Yeah.

Speaker 3:46 I was, like, a professional French horn player.

Speaker 3:48 You.

Speaker 3:49 All through, through my 20s. I left, I left college at 19. I dropped out for-

Speaker 3:54 Just to confirm, which one is the French horn?

Speaker 3:56 The round one.

Speaker 3:57 Yeah. W- the one you put under you, then you-

Speaker 4:00 It's, uh, the round one, and then it has the bell in the back that you put your hand in.

Speaker 4:03 Yeah. Uh-huh. Okay.

Speaker 4:04 And so the bell is going backwards.

Speaker 4:05 Okay, okay, okay.

Speaker 4:06 Yeah.

Speaker 4:06 Got it, got it, got it.

Speaker 4:07 Yeah. And, uh, I wanted to be the world's greatest French horn player since the time I, since I was eight years old.

Speaker 4:12 You knew this is what you wanted to do.

Speaker 4:13 I knew.

Speaker 4:14 What did you see that made you think French horn player, me?

Speaker 4:18 Well, I, I was a good musician. I started violin at four and piano at five-

Speaker 4:23 Wow

Speaker 4:23 ... and then the French horn at eight, and that's what I was really good at. And when you're a little kid, I mean, it's not like I loved music.

Speaker 4:30 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4:30 I loved having people tell me that I was-

Speaker 4:32 Doing well

Speaker 4:33 ... worthwhile.

Speaker 4:34 Yeah.

Speaker 4:35 And I got a lot of attention and affection, which is what all people who are addicted to success later in life have, and all, a- anybody who's a workaholic later in life, ordinarily, their, their, their childhood is, is characterized by getting attention from adults because of what they do-

Speaker 4:51 Oh, wow

Speaker 4:51 ... and feeling like love is earned, which characteristic is people I work with all the time. I say, "I, let me tell you something about your childhood." And they say, "How did you know?" [laughs] 'Cause every striver has a s- different version of that same story. And, uh, and so that's what I loved. I loved the attention that I actually got for being better than everybody else at one particular weird thing. And so I went pro at 19 playing chamber music and, and, and trying to become a soloist, and at 22, I got my big break, which was my Carnegie Hall debut.

Speaker 5:21 No way.

Speaker 5:21 Yeah, yeah. And, uh, at one point in the concert, the str- most stressful point in the concert, I had to walk to the front of the stage and talk to the audience to tell them about the next piece, and that's what stressed me out the most.

Speaker 5:34 Were you holding the French horn at this time?

Speaker 5:35 Not the playing. Of course, of course. But, uh, you know, playing the French horn didn't stress me out. Talking to people in public stressed me out 'cause I'd never done it. So, and I was, I was rehearsing it in my mind and rehearsing, going through it and going through, "Mm." And it came time, and I was really nervous, and I walked to the front of the stage, and I wasn't looking at my feet, and I fell off the front of the stage.

Speaker 5:54 How, I've always wondered about stage-

Speaker 5:55 Six feet

Speaker 5:56 ... French horn in hand.

Speaker 5:57 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 5:57 Whoa. B- b- yeah.

Speaker 5:58 I-

Speaker 5:58 And that's what I've always wanted to ask somebody about-

Speaker 6:01 Wow

Speaker 6:01 ... falling off of a stage.

Speaker 6:03 It's the worst.

Speaker 6:04 Yeah, because it, it- You watch videos of people who do it all the time, whether it's a catwalk-

Speaker 6:08 Mm

Speaker 6:08 ... whether it's a performance or ... They just disappear. You know, they do their thing.

Speaker 6:11 Right.

Speaker 6:11 It's like one minute they're there, one min- then it's, like, gone.

Speaker 6:13 Right.

Speaker 6:13 How, how painful is it?

Speaker 6:15 It's ve- well, it's about six feet.

Speaker 6:17 Okay.

Speaker 6:17 I landed on my elbow. So, so it was very painful, and I, I did a lot of damage to my instrument as well. And, and of course I did what anybody would do, any, any 22-year-old man would do. I jumped up and said, "I'm okay, folks"

Speaker 6:31 "I'm okay." Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 6:33 [laughs] My instrument's mangled.

Speaker 6:34 Nice to see you. [laughs]

Speaker 6:34 I'm clearly in pain. And there's a gasp from the audience.

Speaker 6:40 Oh, man.

Speaker 6:41 Yeah. It was-

Speaker 6:41 It's so funny that humans do that. Why are we more concerned with, like, assuaging the, the, like ... Like, everyone out there is having their own, like, fear. Everyone out there is going, "Are you okay?" And we're like, "No, no, no, I am okay."

Speaker 6:55 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 6:56 "Do not worry about the arm that's dangling in the wrong dir-"

Speaker 6:59 That's right. Clearly something broken.

Speaker 7:00 "You do not worry."

Speaker 7:01 Yeah.

Eugene 7:01 I also think a-

Speaker 7:02 "Let's move on"

Eugene 7:03 ... a group, "Are you okay?" is not about you, it's about them.

Speaker 7:05 But that's what I'm saying. Why do we care about ... You've just fallen off a stage.

Eugene 7:08 No, it's just about them. How ... Is this concert gonna continue? Is he still gonna be able to do this thing for us at some point?

Speaker 7:13 Yeah, but where does that, where does that come from in society?

Eugene 7:15 What do we need to get involved?

Speaker 7:15 What do you think that is?

Speaker 7:16 So that's a natural human tendency-

Speaker 7:18 Mm

Speaker 7:18 ... to show strength. That's the natural human tendency to show resiliency.

Speaker 7:22 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 7:22 And it's especially true for men. They don't wanna look as if they're vulnerable in any way. They don't wanna look like they're weak in any way.

Speaker 7:29 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 7:29 It's very, very embarrassing to, to, to show that something has hurt you-

Speaker 7:34 Yeah.

Eugene 7:34 Okay. All right

Speaker 7:35 ... for young men, especially in front of a whole bunch of people that I'm trying to impress. I'd been spending the last hour and a half trying to impress them as deeply as I possibly could. This is my New York debut.

Speaker 7:43 Carnegie Hall.

Speaker 7:44 Carnegie Hall, baby. I mean, how do you get to Carnegie Hall? Well, try not to fall off the stage-

Speaker 7:50 Yeah

Speaker 7:50 ... among other things. And, and, and so during that, what you don't want is that to char- your weakness to characterize your New York debut.

Speaker 7:57 Yeah.

Speaker 7:57 That's not what you want. And so the result is you're trying to wind back time. You know, you're trying to wind back the time by saying, "I'm okay, folks. Let's just go back to the concert." And it's like, "We're never going back." [laughs]

Speaker 8:08 We've just lost a, a French horn.

Speaker 8:10 So th- that has happened to you, some version of that, right?

Speaker 8:14 Never.

Speaker 8:14 There's never been anything in your life that has been this-

Speaker 8:16 Oh, you mean like on a sta- no

Speaker 8:18 ... this, no, the-

Speaker 8:18 Stage level

Speaker 8:18 ... your version of falling off the stage.

Speaker 8:20 Your... Yeah.

Eugene 8:20 Yeah.

Speaker 8:20 What was it?

Speaker 8:20 No, I mean, we've all had that somewhere.

Speaker 8:22 But tell me.

Eugene 8:22 No, yours.

Speaker 8:23 Tell me the story.

Eugene 8:23 We, we want to know particularly yours.

Speaker 8:26 Yeah, and they-

Eugene 8:26 Let me think of one in-

Speaker 8:27 Well, you, you're next, Eugene. [laughs]

Eugene 8:29 [laughs] I thought you were Zulu brothers. What's going on here? [laughs]

Speaker 8:34 [laughs]

Speaker 8:34 [laughs] Oh, wow. I'm, I'm hoping, so this is gonna bring us closer to happiness, right?

Speaker 8:41 Uh-huh.

Speaker 8:41 Okay. So we-

Speaker 8:42 I promise

Speaker 8:42 ... so we've got to find the, this unhappy memory, and then you're gonna bring us closer

Speaker 8:46 to happiness and-

Speaker 8:46 'Cause we're gonna laugh like crazy about it now-

Speaker 8:47 Let me think

Speaker 8:48 ... because it's in the past

Speaker 8:48 ... where was one ... Okay, I'll tell you where was, uh, where, where one was. Um, the earliest I can sort of remember in my life was I was in a school play, and-

Eugene 8:56 Your school had plays?

Speaker 8:58 Yeah. Y- your school didn't have plays?

Eugene 9:00 [laughs]

Speaker 9:01 No. [laughs]

Speaker 9:02 So I was in a school play.

Eugene 9:04 [laughs]

Speaker 9:04 And I was six or seven years old.

Speaker 9:08 Mm.

Speaker 9:09 And in the play I was, I was, uh, portraying a tortoise, right? And so I had a big shell on my back and a whole thing, and there was one part of the play where we all had this, like, march dance thing where it was like, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And we walk off the stage, and then we walk back onto the stage, and we walk off the stage, on, on the stage. And then I was walking back onto the stage, and as I got up onto one of the steps, one of my tortoise feet caught the step. 'Cause I hadn't walked much on stairs with tortoise feet. Human feet are, are pretty much knew what I was doing.

Eugene 9:41 You didn't attend much rehearsals.

Speaker 9:42 I, I mean, even then I didn't-

Eugene 9:43 'Cause also rehearsals don't happen with costumes on.

Speaker 9:45 Yeah, they don't.

Eugene 9:45 Most of the time.

Speaker 9:46 You just, you just do it with, like, your ... You know?

Eugene 9:48 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 9:48 And I, I tripped, but it was one of those, like, you know where you save yourself from tripping-

Speaker 9:53 Mm

Speaker 9:53 ... and so it makes the trip worse.

Speaker 9:54 So you're just like, you're just flying off the stage.

Speaker 9:55 'Cause often times, if you just trip and fall down and get up, it's, it's not bad. But sometimes you go, "I'm not tripping. I'm not tripping."

Speaker 10:00 Right. Right.

Speaker 10:00 And then it draws attention to the trip.

Speaker 10:02 Uh-huh.

Speaker 10:02 So it was like, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga. And then while this was happening, everyone's turning.

Speaker 10:07 Uh.

Speaker 10:07 And the whole school, when I tell you the whole school, 'cause it was in the hall-

Eugene 10:12 Mm

Speaker 10:13 ... laughed at the same time.

Speaker 10:16 [laughs]

Speaker 10:16 And you know the laugh that kids have, young kids?

Speaker 10:18 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 10:18 It's not just like a, "Ha, ha, ha," like-

Eugene 10:20 Horrible, haunting.

Speaker 10:21 It's that one of, like, ah, ah.

Eugene 10:25 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 10:26 They love that laugh.

Eugene 10:27 What the hell? [laughs]

Speaker 10:28 Whole school. I'm talk- maybe it was, like-

Eugene 10:30 Teachers in there

Speaker 10:31 ... 300 kids. You'd ... Man. And that happened, and I remember the blood left my head-

Speaker 10:38 Yeah

Speaker 10:38 ... and left my ... It y- I just, I just wanted to disappear.

Speaker 10:41 Yeah.

Speaker 10:41 Right? And then as I'm walking on the stage, 'cause we have to do the parade multiple times. As we walking down the other side, we come back up, and then I did it again, but this time I did it on purpose.

Speaker 10:58 Ah.

Eugene 10:58 Oh.

Speaker 10:58 And then they laughed again.

Speaker 10:59 Well played. Well played. And-

Eugene 10:59 I did it as a bit, Charlie Chaplin

Speaker 11:01 ... then they laughed again.

Speaker 11:02 Uh-huh.

Speaker 11:03 And then after the show, the, one of the teachers came and was like, "That was comedic genius. Oh, well done. That was brilliant" and whatnot.

Speaker 11:10 Like a star is born.

Eugene 11:11 Yeah.

Speaker 11:11 It was literally ... And, and that, but I remember the, the shift in that moment-

Speaker 11:15 Uh-huh

Speaker 11:15 ... from ... That, that, there's few moments in my life that I think have had more of an impact on me than that

Speaker 11:20 specific moment.

Speaker 11:20 But the presence of mind that that takes at six years old to figure out that this is a comedic bit.

Speaker 11:25 I don't think I thought it was a comedic, I don't think I thought it was a comedic bit. I think I thought to myself, "If I can be the person who is creating this, then you can't hold it against me." Does that make sense?

Speaker 11:36 It, it makes sense.

Eugene 11:37 Um-

Speaker 11:37 It actually explains a lot.

Speaker 11:38 Yeah. I was going like, "Oh, okay. No, no, I'm, I'm the one who did it. I'm the one, uh-

Eugene 11:42 Oh, yeah

Speaker 11:43 ... I, I did it. I did it. I did it."

Speaker 11:44 Yeah.

Eugene 11:44 Yeah.

Speaker 11:44 So the second time is interesting. So you, it was surprising to them but funny at the same time.

Speaker 11:48 Completely.

Speaker 11:48 The second time, actually, so there's this really interesting thing about comedy.

Speaker 11:51 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 11:52 There's a little part of the limbic system of your brain. It's called the parahippocampal gyrus, and what it does is that that's what mediates surprise. That's the reason that all humor is based on surprise. It's all based on surprise.

Speaker 12:03 Mm.

Speaker 12:04 And, and so what, what'll happen, I mean, any stup- I could tell you a stupid dad joke.

Speaker 12:08 Yeah.

Speaker 12:08 And it's all based on that. So I wanna die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

Eugene 12:17 [laughs]

Speaker 12:17 Yes.

Speaker 12:18 Right, right? So, and [laughs]

Eugene 12:19 That's a crack.

Speaker 12:20 Thank you, Eugene.

Speaker 12:20 That was a good one.

Eugene 12:21 [laughs]

Speaker 12:21 No, no, no. Thank you. It's like, it's, it's great. You'll have more of my kids. So, so what that does is it flicks the parahippocampal gyrus.

Speaker 12:27 Uh-huh.

Speaker 12:27 And, and if it's too much you're gonna like, "Why are you making, making fun of hurricane victims?"

Speaker 12:32 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right.

Speaker 12:33 And if it's too little, it's a pun and you're like, "Ah." You see?

Speaker 12:37 But it, but it's because it's, it's basically w- is that part of the brain responsible for predicting something, though?

Speaker 12:43 Yes.

Speaker 12:43 What, what is, what is happening there?

Speaker 12:44 What it does is it sorts out cognitive dissonance.

Speaker 12:46 Got it.

Eugene 12:46 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 12:46 Got it.

Speaker 12:46 It sorts it out. That, you know, the parahippocampal gyrus is why you're going in one direction, and then you say, "What happened? Oh, that," and that makes you laugh. That's what makes you laugh. That's why surprise is funny, is inherently s- f- and then not the kind of surprise like, "The lawyer's on the phone." Not that kind of surprise.

Speaker 13:01 Yeah. [laughs]

Eugene 13:02 [laughs]

Speaker 13:03 It's like ... But it's ... And so that's how all humor works, right? And so that's what you did at six. You have a nose for it. You basically said, "I'm gonna come around the other time, and I'm gonna surprise them," because the last thing that they're expecting is that Trevor-

Speaker 13:17 Yes

Speaker 13:17 ... trips a second time.

Speaker 13:18 Yes.

Speaker 13:19 And that's why they cracked up. But honestly, the first time they mocked you. The second time they actually laughed.

Speaker 13:23 Yeah, no, no. The second time they were-

Speaker 13:24 It was actually hilarious

Speaker 13:25 ... I, I had taken control of the thing.

Speaker 13:27 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 13:27 Hmm.

Speaker 13:27 But you did it to-

Speaker 13:29 What-

Speaker 13:29 ... to flick their little parahippocampal gyrus.

Speaker 13:31 Ah, yeah.

Speaker 13:31 'Cause when you control the parahippocampal gyrus-

Eugene 13:33 Hippocampal gyrus

Speaker 13:33 ... you control the world.

Speaker 13:36 Huh.

Speaker 13:36 Actually, maybe that's a little bit too grand.

Eugene 13:37 The gyrus part-

Speaker 13:38 Yeah, maybe

Eugene 13:38 ... doesn't have anything to do with a gyroscope? Nothing.

Speaker 13:40 [laughs]

Eugene 13:40 Okay. Right?

Speaker 13:41 So

Speaker 13:42 what, what's yours, Eugene? What's your-

Speaker 13:42 Yeah, no, we, we, we're getting to the, the good stuff here.

Eugene 13:45 We'll get-

Speaker 13:45 What's your, what's your moment?

Eugene 13:46 Why you looking at me like you expect me to tell me, to tell you guys something embarrassing about my ...

Speaker 13:51 No, it's not embarrassing.

Eugene 13:51 Okay, here we go.

Speaker 13:52 Just what's your moment?

Eugene 13:52 So this was my first year of school.

Speaker 13:54 Ah.

Eugene 13:55 So my parents had bought me a school uniform, right?

Speaker 13:58 Uh-huh.

Eugene 13:58 So everyone is excited about me going to school fa... Personally, I'd been looking at these gray flannel pants for the longest time. I'm gonna wear these pants, my uniform, my white shirt, I'm gonna do this thing. So it came with a belt. Ironically, that's what I forgot this time on my trip.

Speaker 14:10 [laughs]

Eugene 14:11 And I've gone to shop so many times. Almost bought the shiesty, but not a belt. In any case, so I go to school for the first week. On Friday, and remember, it's orientation for us, so they're teaching us the songs that we must sing at assembly. We had assembly, but it was outside, no hall.

Speaker 14:26 You were what, like, six years old?

Eugene 14:27 Six years, yeah.

Speaker 14:27 Okay. Six years old.

Eugene 14:27 First year of school.

Speaker 14:28 Yeah.

Eugene 14:28 So all of this is happening. I lose my belt playing football after school. So on Friday I have to go to school without a belt. My mom notices I don't have a belt on. What does she do? She had bought a pair of suspenders for Christmas clothes.

Speaker 14:42 [laughs]

Speaker 14:42 [laughs] This is not the fashion statement you're trying to make, is this what I gather? [laughs]

Speaker 14:53 Maybe, maybe-

Speaker 14:54 He's reliving this horrible moment.

Speaker 14:55 Maybe the-

Speaker 14:55 This moment of trauma because of you.

Speaker 14:56 No, wait. Maybe the professor will explain to me-

Eugene 14:58 You were a tripping turtle, yeah.

Speaker 14:59 Yeah, bruh.

Eugene 15:00 And I didn't go [laughs]

Speaker 15:02 No, let me explain. Wait, wait, wait. Let me explain.

Eugene 15:03 Ah, my ..."

Speaker 15:03 Let me explain, let me explain to you what-

Eugene 15:05 No, I don't explain

Speaker 15:05 ... wait, let me explain what happened to my brain.

Eugene 15:07 No, no, no.

Speaker 15:08 What, what happened there-

Eugene 15:08 The hippocampus gyro.

Speaker 15:09 My hippocampus gyro.

Speaker 15:11 Hi- parahippocampal gyrus. [laughs]

Speaker 15:12 That one.

Speaker 15:13 Close enough.

Eugene 15:13 Found a new one.

Speaker 15:13 Yeah. Hippocampal.

Speaker 15:16 [laughs]

Speaker 15:16 Hippocampal gyro. You see the hippocampal gyro? It got flicked in my brain.

Speaker 15:19 Uh-huh.

Speaker 15:20 Because of all the things I thought you would say, I did not think the word suspenders was gonna come into this story at all. You said, "Then my mom find out," and then I thought, "My mom's gonna get angry. My mom is gonna shout at my mom," the many things.

Eugene 15:33 Well, she did. She was.

Speaker 15:34 No, no, no.

Eugene 15:34 But-

Speaker 15:34 But then you said, "My mom had bought a pair of suspenders."

Eugene 15:37 Yes, for my Christmas clothes that I avoided. [laughs]

Speaker 15:40 [laughs]

Speaker 15:40 [laughs]

Speaker 15:40 Sorry.

Eugene 15:40 To wear.

Speaker 15:41 Now carry on.

Eugene 15:42 'Cause Christmas clothes are a big deal.

Speaker 15:42 Now I'm just letting you know I wasn't laughing at you.

Speaker 15:44 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 15:44 I was laughing at the suspenders that were just in the mix.

Speaker 15:46 He was laughing with you.

Speaker 15:49 Or about you.

Speaker 15:50 [laughs]

Speaker 15:50 But not at you.

Speaker 15:52 This is tough.

Speaker 15:52 Sorry, I apologize. Carry on.

Eugene 15:53 Yeah.

Speaker 15:53 So your mom had bought sus- Christmas suspenders.

Eugene 15:55 That I avoided.

Speaker 15:56 Yeah.

Eugene 15:57 Throughout the whole entire December.

Speaker 15:58 Yeah.

Eugene 15:58 And I managed to go through Christmas without wearing them. And then she said, "You're gonna put on these suspenders, 'cause this, these pants are gonna fall. Because they're not the exact size, you have to wear them, you have to grow into them a little bit."

Speaker 16:08 Yeah, you have to grow into your clothes. Yeah.

Eugene 16:09 This is two years' worth of pants here. They've hemmed them up at the bottom. They're loose-fitting. So I wear the suspenders, and mind you, I have to walk to school. There's no drop-offs here. So all the way I'm wearing a jersey in the heat, going to school.

Speaker 16:22 Hiding the suspenders.

Eugene 16:23 Hiding the suspenders. I get to school. We're in assembly. I'm the shortest kid, so they put me right at the front. So we're singing this song, right?

Speaker 16:32 Uh-huh.

Eugene 16:33 Our Father who art in heaven.

Speaker 16:34 Uh-huh.

Eugene 16:34 But we had a version, an English version, and a isiZulu version. So I went to a Catholic creche.

Speaker 16:40 I can tell.

Eugene 16:40 So I knew the song very well.

Speaker 16:41 Mm-hmm.

Eugene 16:42 So the teacher that's been teaching us at assembly to sing this song for the longest time-

Speaker 16:45 No, Eugene

Eugene 16:46 ... noticed that I was actually hitting all the notes-

Speaker 16:49 No, Eugene

Eugene 16:50 ... and switching between the two languages.

Speaker 16:52 [laughs]

Eugene 16:52 And then he said to me, "You guys are idiots. There's this kid here, he, four days in this school, fifth day today, and he's hitting all the right notes."

Speaker 17:00 [laughs]

Eugene 17:01 "This is our school song. Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy king ..."

Speaker 17:04 And this kid-

Eugene 17:04 ... ..."

Speaker 17:05 Yes, and this kid's nailing it.

Eugene 17:06 This kid is nailing it, guys.

Speaker 17:07 Which means-

Eugene 17:08 He's the shortest here. He's the youngest here. He's the newest here. There's people who've been here for four years. This song is not working for you, but this kid is nailing it. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna ask this kid-

Speaker 17:18 I knew it

Speaker 17:22 And you went up in front of the school.

Eugene 17:23 "I'm gonna ask this kid-

Speaker 17:24 [laughs]

Eugene 17:25 ... to come in front-

Speaker 17:26 Yo

Eugene 17:26 ... start the hymn from the beginning, and sing this thing."

Speaker 17:30 No, man.

Eugene 17:30 Then I'm like, "Huh?"

Speaker 17:31 Oh, man.

Eugene 17:31 So this traumatic look that I have whenever something, when you spring something on me and my hippogyrus campus is affected.

Speaker 17:39 Mm-hmm.

Eugene 17:39 There's the same, this look I've been having since I was six. So he takes his time instructing the biggest kid in the school to go fetch a desk in one of the classes to put as a stage for me.

Speaker 17:50 Oh.

Eugene 17:50 Then as the stage, my Carnegie Hall, is being erected in front of me or behind me, he says to me, "This jersey in this heat."

Speaker 17:59 [laughs]

Eugene 17:59 This is South Africa in January. It's hot. So he says, "You can't be wearing a jersey. Take off the..."

Speaker 18:03 [laughs]

Eugene 18:03 I'm like, "No, trust me, I'm fine." He goes, "You are not going to do that." And mind you, this is with a belt. The tailor made sure, tailor being my mom-

Speaker 18:11 Uh-huh

Eugene 18:11 ... that the hemming up of these pants fitted perfectly to my ankles. Now suspenders, on the other hand-

Speaker 18:17 They pull way up

Eugene 18:17 ... they were suspending my ankles.

Speaker 18:19 Right. [laughs]

Eugene 18:19 That's what they were doing

Speaker 18:22 [laughs]

Eugene 18:22 And then he says to me, "The jersey's coming off." So now I'm six years old, small kid. I'm trying to argue with this teacher as he grabs the shoulders and pulls off this jersey while he's plucking me up and putting me on stage.

Speaker 18:33 Oh, man.

Speaker 18:35 And there were the-

Eugene 18:35 See that laugh?

Speaker 18:36 Yeah.

Speaker 18:36 Oh, man.

Eugene 18:37 All of that, the [laughs] happened. And I knew I had one option here, 'cause the other option was if I jump off stage, I'll make a bigger idiot of myself 'cause this rickety desk might actually be the end of me.

Speaker 18:49 Yeah.

Eugene 18:49 Then I stood there and I continued singing the song. Our Father, who art... Went on and on and, until they all kept quiet, and I switched between the two songs, Zulu version, the English version, and it ended. And then from then onwards, everyone called me Our Father for that year.

Speaker 19:07 [laughs]

Eugene 19:07 Then I was like, "It's ironic, because-

Speaker 19:09 At least they didn't call you Suspenders.

Eugene 19:11 [laughs]

Speaker 19:12 [laughs]

Speaker 19:12 [laughs]

Eugene 19:12 So that was, that was, that was my story. And then I went home-

Speaker 19:15 Wow

Eugene 19:15 ... and I told my mom that story. And, you know, I was so embarrassed because it felt like a long day, obviously, of what happened, the nicknames that happened afterwards, on my way home, playing soccer afterwards there.

Speaker 19:27 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eugene 19:27 And my mom said, "You know, you... Where, where..." Okay, in Zulu she said, "Uh, ukhephuke kuphi?" Means, "Where were you broken?" Then I said, "No, they hurt my feelings." She said, "Yeah, yeah, I hear that, but is there any part of you that they took away from you physically?" Then I said, "Nothing." She says, "Life is gonna be like that. People are gonna try. You mustn't let them. Someone can surprise you about something that you are. They will say many things about you, but don't believe them, because it won't break any bit of you." And the other thing was my name. People didn't know how to pronounce my name or write my name, and she taught me how to teach people how to pronounce my name.

Speaker 20:02 Oh, wow.

Speaker 20:02 Hmm.

Eugene 20:02 She said, "You must say Eh-oo-gen, because if they want you to pronounce it like that, it means they're slow and you're not." So I learned all of those little things. And when it came to stage and performing, after a bad show, you're like, "This is nothing compared to standing in a, on top of a desk in an assembly with suspenders on."

Speaker 20:16 Hmm. This is beautiful. I'm basically picturing, like, like a African Forrest Gump now.

Eugene 20:20 Yep, 100%.

Speaker 20:22 Literally. Like, the suspenders and your mom being like, "Slawa Zisthwabadaz."

Eugene 20:26 [laughs]

Speaker 20:26 "Eh, Eh-oo-gen."

Eugene 20:28 Eh-oo-gen. [laughs]

Speaker 20:29 "You can't sit here, Our Father. You can't sit here."

Eugene 20:33 I haven't accessed that memory for the longest time.

Speaker 20:34 There you go.

Eugene 20:35 In fact, never.

Speaker 20:36 That is so powerful.

Speaker 20:37 [clears throat]

Speaker 20:37 And most powerful for me. Thank you.

Speaker 20:39 Absolutely.

Eugene 20:40 Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 20:40 You know, you, you know what the, the happiness-

Eugene 20:41 Mm-hmm

Speaker 20:41 ... you've brought to me-

Eugene 20:42 Mm-hmm

Speaker 20:42 ... one, you've brought me closer to my friend.

Speaker 20:44 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 20:45 But two, and more importantly, in your story I noticed you were playing football. Wow, Eugene.

Eugene 20:51 I was good at football.

Speaker 20:52 This is-

Eugene 20:52 What do you mean I was playing football?

Speaker 20:53 But now I see, like, you, you were playing football, the football made you lose your belt, and this is another reason that you now hate football.

Eugene 20:59 Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 20:59 I'm slowly piecing this together,

Speaker 21:01 my friend.

Speaker 21:01 Yeah. But for both of you guys, if you think about this, these are the formative experiences that make us who we are.

Speaker 21:06 Hmm.

Speaker 21:06 See, here's the deal, and this is a real problem, especially today. A lot of young people watch you. Big fans.

Speaker 21:12 Yeah?

Eugene 21:13 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 21:13 The biggest mistake that a lot of young people make today is they think that the pain that they have must be eliminated. And the truth is that these experiences, and the on, the day-to-day suffering that they're going to inevitably face, that's their teacher and makes them who they actually are. So to the extent that we, that we resist the pain in our lives to try to lower the suffering that we face, the worse off we are. The worse off that we are. The fact is, I asked you about something-

Speaker 21:40 Mm-hmm

Speaker 21:40 ... that was a really bad day for you.

Speaker 21:41 Yes.

Speaker 21:42 But you turned it into a good day. This was an unambiguously bad day for you.

Speaker 21:45 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 21:45 And for me, it was the worst day of my young adult life.

Speaker 21:48 Right.

Speaker 21:49 And in point of fact, these things made us who we are in a very, in a fundamental way. This was, these were turning points. These were inflections. I realized that day that I didn't actually have to be this person, that it didn't matter. It didn't matter, that that wasn't who I was, was the guy falling off the stage. That wasn't who I w- I, I s- here's the deal. It's funny, I was talking to this young guy. I was talking to a... I, I do a lot of talks for young adults, and I was talking to a group of young adults in Washington, DC. Uh, they were all working on the, on Capitol Hill. And Washington, DC, is the world's most dysfunctional dating market. It's com- it's, it's, it's a nightmare.

Speaker 22:27 In what way?

Speaker 22:28 That, you know-

Eugene 22:28 Was it, was it?

Speaker 22:28 ... everybody's kinda climbing, and they want power, and the, everybody's jockeying for position.

Eugene 22:33 Oh, okay, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 22:33 Okay, okay, yeah.

Speaker 22:33 It's socially dysfunctional. And, and I'm talking to this group. They're all in their 20-somethings-

Speaker 22:38 Mm-hmm

Speaker 22:38 ... uh, on, on the Senate side. And, and I was talking about, you know, you gotta treat your life like a startup.

Speaker 22:43 You gotta be an entrepreneur in the business of your own life. Your life is an enterprise. You're the founder. And the number one most entrepreneurial thing that you can do, you know what it is? They're like, "No." Fall in love a- and put your heart at risk. Give your heart away, right? And I thought it was pretty clever. Anyway, a couple weeks later I'm on a plane, and a kid comes up to... Kid, 26. Kid compared to me. Comes up to me, he says, "Professor Brooks." I said, "Yeah." He said, "I saw you give that talk on Capitol Hill. I can't get it out of my head. I'm on my way right now to tell a woman that I've been lo- in love with secretly for two years that I love her because of your speech." And I'm like, "It's only a speech." [laughs]

Eugene 23:24 [laughs]

Speaker 23:24 [laughs]

Speaker 23:26 I don't wanna-

Eugene 23:26 Oh, wow

Speaker 23:27 ... I don't wanna ruin your life.

Eugene 23:28 Oh, wow.

Speaker 23:28 I don't wanna ruin your life.

Eugene 23:30 Oh. [laughs]

Speaker 23:30 And I'm like-

Eugene 23:31 Our hippocampus gyri is important

Speaker 23:32 ... and I was like, "Oh, boy. So her parahippocampal gyri's about to get flicked pretty hard."

Eugene 23:37 Oh, man.

Speaker 23:37 Anyway, so, and so I said, "Well, you know, let me know how it goes," and I gave him my email. Don't hear from him, which is a bad sign. I see him several months later at, at, at a party in DC. I was running a company in those days. He comes up to me and he says, "Remember me?" And I'm like, "Yeah."

Eugene 23:51 [laughs] I like so much effort to not voice-

Speaker 23:52 And I says, and I said, "Yeah, on the plane," right?

Eugene 23:55 [laughs]

Speaker 23:55 So yeah. I said, "So what happened with that girl?" And he said, "She shot me down. She didn't just not love me. She introduced me to the guy that she was in love with."

Speaker 24:04 Oof.

Speaker 24:04 "It was the worst day of my life." And I was very contrite. I said, "I'm sorry. I'm not trying to ruin your life." And he said, "No, no, no, no. I'm here because I wanted to tell you that I w- I meant to get in touch and thank you."

Speaker 24:14 Hmm.

Speaker 24:15 And I said, "Well, what are you, a masochist? Why, why do you wanna thank me?" And he said, "'Cause that was the thing I was literally most afraid of in my life, and it happened-

Speaker 24:23 Oh, wow

Speaker 24:23 ... and I didn't die." I didn't die

Eugene 24:27 Where did you break? No way

Speaker 24:29 You didn't

Eugene 24:29 Like my mom said

Speaker 24:30 Yeah

Speaker 24:30 Yeah

Speaker 24:30 Exactly right. Exactly right. I didn't ... Look, I broke my horn, but I didn't break my life. This is the thing. It's so funny-

Speaker 24:36 Hmm

Speaker 24:36 ... because all these things that you break through, you had to, you had to stand up to your embarrassment, stand up to your shame. My, my first day lecturing when I was a brand new professor, I was nervous. And, and I had to give a three-hour lecture in, in front of graduate students. These are ... This is hardcore.

Speaker 24:51 Yeah

Speaker 24:51 I was at Syracuse in those days. I had just come to Syracuse early on, very early on in my career actually. So, and I'm giving this three-hour lecture, and I'm noticing they're very ... They're kind of laughing at my jokes, and they're really all smiley. And they were very, very, very pleasant, and I thought, "Why is it that they're so amused by everything?" But it went really well. I was kind of patting myself on the back.

Speaker 25:11 Hmm.

Speaker 25:12 I, I had been very nervous. And I walk out of the lecture hall, and I'm walking down the hall, and I see one of my colleagues coming toward me, and he starts laughing. And I said, "What are you laughing at?" And he said, "Your fly's down."

Speaker 25:20 Oh.

Speaker 25:21 I had just given a three-hour first lecture, and I was trying to impress them with my fly down and a little piece of my, like, shirt coming out of the fly.

Speaker 25:29 Oh.

Eugene 25:30 Oh.

Speaker 25:30 That's perfect comedy.

Speaker 25:31 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 25:31 That's flawless comedy-

Speaker 25:32 Yeah, yeah

Speaker 25:32 ... when it does that little peek thing.

Speaker 25:33 Yeah, uh-huh.

Speaker 25:34 Yeah.

Speaker 25:34 Yeah.

Speaker 25:34 That's-

Speaker 25:35 Yeah, it's beautiful.

Speaker 25:36 So, okay, so now-

Speaker 25:36 But that's the point.

Speaker 25:37 Hmm.

Speaker 25:37 And the whole point was I wasn't nervous anymore for any lecture after that ever.

Speaker 25:41 Yes. Got many HR complaints, though.

Speaker 25:43 [laughs]

Speaker 25:43 They were like, "I mean, we would like you to zip the fly up." And he's like, "This is the new me."

Speaker 25:47 Sorry.

Speaker 25:47 "This is the new me."

Speaker 25:48 This is like, this is, this is-

Speaker 25:49 "Professor Fly"

Speaker 25:49 ... I gotta be me. [laughs]

Speaker 25:52 [laughs] I found myself, baby.

Speaker 25:53 That's my suspenders.

Speaker 25:54 [laughs]

Speaker 25:56 But, but the other thing-

Speaker 25:57 No, wait, wait. But this, this is what I asked you

Speaker 25:58 ... face your, face your pain.

Speaker 25:59 Face your pain.

Speaker 25:59 Face your fear. Face your suffering.

Speaker 26:00 Yeah.

Speaker 26:00 You're gonna hear suffering.

Speaker 26:01 Wait, wait, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's, let's do this step by step 'cause I, 'cause I, uh, you know, the thing I, I wanna be careful of is, um, you, you actually taught me this in many ways. But it's like sometimes when you speak to somebody who has mastered something or has a certain mastery of something-

Speaker 26:16 Mm-hmm

Speaker 26:17 ... they can gloss through it and move through it in a way that sounds correct but then, uh, sometimes doesn't connect with how people are hearing it. So let's, let's take these things step by step-

Speaker 26:26 Yeah

Speaker 26:26 ... because, um, you study happiness.

Speaker 26:29 Right.

Speaker 26:30 You know what I mean? And you've studied it for how long now?

Speaker 26:32 Uh, I wrote my first book on happiness about 25 years ago.

Speaker 26:34 Right.

Speaker 26:34 Right. But-

Speaker 26:34 So you, you've really been in the game.

Speaker 26:36 Yeah, yeah, but I've been the f- seven, the last seven years writing, speaking, and teaching full time. Nothing else.

Speaker 26:41 So-

Speaker 26:41 Nothing else

Speaker 26:41 ... so let, let's start with the, the, the core idea because I, I think it's important for us to build from the ground up.

Speaker 26:46 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 26:46 Understanding you and understanding your work. The first thing I, I realize we need to think about is w- what is happiness?

Speaker 26:54 Yeah.

Speaker 26:54 'Cause every- everyone says they want to be happy.

Speaker 26:57 Right.

Speaker 26:58 Every o- America, the pursuit of happiness.

Speaker 27:01 Which is not the promise of happiness.

Speaker 27:03 No, but the pursuit.

Speaker 27:04 But anyway, yeah.

Speaker 27:04 You know what I mean? The pursuit.

Speaker 27:05 Yeah.

Speaker 27:05 So I, I, I wanna know from you as somebody who's studied it, how do you define happiness?

Speaker 27:11 Yeah. So first, what is it not? It's not a feeling. The biggest mistake that we make is misunderstanding emotions. Most people think that happiness is a feeling, but happiness is a feeling kind of like the, your Thanksgiving dinner is the smell of your turkey. It's not. The smell of the turkey is evidence of, of Thanksgiving dinner, and your ... The feeling of happiness is evidence of actual happiness. Happiness has, like your Thanksgiving dinner, has three macronutrients, three constituent parts that you need to get really good at understanding and changing your habits around. Number one is enjoyment, which is not the same thing as pleasure.

Speaker 27:44 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 27:44 If you're pursuing pleasure, you're not gonna find happiness. You're gonna find rehab.

Speaker 27:48 Hmm.

Speaker 27:49 And it's very different understanding the difference between pleasure and enjoyment.

Speaker 27:51 Enjoyment.

Speaker 27:51 Second is satisfaction, which is the joy that you get from an accomplishment after struggle. And the, the accomplishment is not more important than the struggle for satisfaction. And the third is meaning. That's what I'm doing most of my work on for now years, meaning, the meaning of life. You know, what is the, the why of your existence? You need to become an elite athlete in enjoying your life, taking satisfaction in your accomplishments and your achievements, and understanding the why of your existence.

Speaker 28:18 Enjoyment.

Speaker 28:18 Those are your three big jobs-

Speaker 28:19 And enjoying them

Speaker 28:20 ... if you wanna be a happier person.

Speaker 28:21 Yeah.

Speaker 28:21 That's what it comes to. And then a lot of the time you'll get the feeling of happiness.

Speaker 28:23 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 28:24 Not all the time, but that's not what you can rely on.

Speaker 28:26 So happiness is the byproduct of the actions that you are taking.

Speaker 28:30 Yeah.

Speaker 28:31 So you-

Speaker 28:31 So the feeling of happiness is the byproduct.

Speaker 28:32 The feeling, right, of happiness.

Speaker 28:33 The happiness itself is the amount of enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning that you're experiencing in your life.

Speaker 28:38 Yeah.

Speaker 28:39 That's kind of like the, the, the, the amount of protein, carbohydrates, and fat that you eat-

Speaker 28:43 Yeah

Speaker 28:43 ... is the amount of food and calories that you're getting. That's what it comes down to. That's how to think about it. And each one of those things is really important. Some people, uh ... The good news is nobody's great across all of these things. I have tests that I give my students to find out where the, wh- in which macronutrient they need work. I know a lot of people who take tons of satisfaction in what they do because they have a lot of achievements, and they've worked hard, and they've struggled.

Speaker 29:05 Yeah.

Speaker 29:06 But they don't know why they're doing it. They have a low sense of meaning. And I know a lot of really big executives, you know, hedge fund managers and private equity people and m- people who make a ton of dough.

Speaker 29:15 People that everyone, uh, like, sort of aspiring to.

Speaker 29:17 Aspires, yeah. And they don't enjoy their lives at all because they don't know how to enjoy.

Speaker 29:20 And what are they, what are they lacking in those instances? So somebody step- somebody comes into your world who says, "Professor Brooks, I, man, I am, I'm nailing it. I'm satisfied in, in-"

Speaker 29:29 Right

Speaker 29:29 ... in this realm. You know, I'm, I'm-"

Speaker 29:30 Right

Speaker 29:30 ... "I'm doing it, but man, I just, ugh, I just don't feel good." W- what do you, what do you find they're missing, or why is, why is it so difficult to experience that happiness if they're missing meaning?

Speaker 29:41 So if they're missing meaning, then there will be no reason for what they're doing. So meaning really has three ... But meaning's the most, is the heaviest, most philosophical part of it all, but it's the most important of these macronutrients. It's the protein. It's basically the protein of your happiness is your-

Speaker 29:53 Okay.

Eugene 29:53 Driver, mm-hmm.

Speaker 29:54 Yeah, so meaning is, is really a combination of being able to answer three questions. Why do things happen the way they do in life? That's coherence. And some people answer that with religion.

Speaker 30:03 Uh-huh.

Speaker 30:03 And some people answer that with science. I'm both religious and a scientist. I'm both. Some people ... Here's a funny thing. You know people who follow a lot of conspiracy theories.

Speaker 30:12 Yeah.

Speaker 30:12 That's very common today. They're going down the rabbit hole. Are you a conspiracy theorist? Generally speaking, conspira-

Eugene 30:17 Love your Batman voice though.

Speaker 30:18 [laughs]

Eugene 30:19 The best one I've heard yet.

Speaker 30:20 You know what?

Eugene 30:20 We had Mamdi trying.

Speaker 30:22 Yeah.

Eugene 30:22 It was okay. Yours-

Speaker 30:23 You rate this one more?

Eugene 30:23 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 30:24 Nah, Mamdi still wins it for me.

Eugene 30:25 The Batman voice.

Speaker 30:25 The Batman voice?

Speaker 30:26 Yeah, the voice.

Speaker 30:27 Yeah, yeah.

Eugene 30:27 Conspiracy, conspiracy theory.

Speaker 30:28 Okay. You're a conspiracy theorist.

Eugene 30:30 [laughs]

Speaker 30:30 It's not bad. It's actually not bad.

Speaker 30:31 Yeah.

Eugene 30:32 No.

Speaker 30:32 Yeah. [laughs] That's, that's like I, I'm, I'm actually, I did ... I'm, I'm, I'm auditioning to be the next Batman. I realize-

Speaker 30:36 [laughs]

Speaker 30:37 It's like, it's called Bald Batman

Eugene 30:39 [laughs]

Speaker 30:40 [laughs]

Speaker 30:41 You wear, no you wear the, the, the, that's why-

Speaker 30:42 I know, I know, but like

Speaker 30:43 ... people talking don't know.

Speaker 30:44 I know, but they, but Bruce Wayne, he has a beautiful hair, head of hair.

Speaker 30:48 This is true.

Speaker 30:48 I know, but not now. [laughs] It's a new day.

Speaker 30:51 Could change.

Speaker 30:52 Yeah.

Speaker 30:52 Could change.

Eugene 30:52 [laughs] It's a new day.

Speaker 30:53 That's right.

Speaker 30:53 But okay, so yeah, so you're saying-

Speaker 30:54 So, okay, so-

Speaker 30:55 Conspiracy theorists, what-

Speaker 30:56 So conspiracy theorists are looking for coherence. They're looking for an answer to the question, why do things happen the way that they do? So when I meet somebody who's really down the rabbit hole of weird conspiracy theories, that is a dead giveaway that what they're looking for is coherence because they want meaning, because they wanna get happier. That's where I'm gonna actually work with that person. I'm gonna work with that person on alternative ways to... And I'm not gonna say, "You're an idiot." I'm not gonna say, "That's not true." I'm not gonna say, you know, "Go read the paper, for God's sake."

Speaker 31:23 Yeah.

Speaker 31:23 I'm gonna say, "Let's work on different ways to understand why things happen the way that they do." I'm gonna re- try to reconnect them with the faith of their youth. I'm gonna try to get them really interested in science. You know, different nutritious ways to actually understand why things happen the way they do.

Speaker 31:36 So it's not erasing their curiosity, nor their need to find coherence, but it's finding a healthier balance of those ingredients that-

Speaker 31:43 It's a redirection.

Speaker 31:44 Okay.

Speaker 31:44 It's a redirection towards something that will truly bring you a sense of coherence, while not alienating you from, you know, the people that you're trying to maintain.

Eugene 31:50 [laughs]

Speaker 31:50 Now, now-

Speaker 31:51 So that's number one

Speaker 31:51 ...

Speaker 31:52 but wait, but-

Speaker 31:52 That's just one element of it

Speaker 31:52 ... but while you're still on that, though, let's talk on, on that one element. Does that apply to everything? So can you meet somebody who, for instance, is so religious that they're not having a good time in life? Or can you meet somebody who is so science-based-

Speaker 32:03 Mm

Speaker 32:03 ... that they're not having a good time in life, or does it only apply to, like, conspiracy?

Speaker 32:06 Well, conspiracy theories, it tends to be kind of antisocial. And so if something that your-

Speaker 32:11 Okay

Speaker 32:11 ... your sense of coherence is pulling you away from your love relationships-

Speaker 32:14 Okay

Speaker 32:15 ... then that's gonna be-

Speaker 32:15 Pulling you away from community

Speaker 32:16 ... militating against another one of the elements of meaning-

Speaker 32:19 Mm-hmm

Speaker 32:19 ... which is significance.

Speaker 32:20 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 32:20 Significance is that your life matters to someone.

Speaker 32:24 Oh.

Speaker 32:24 Your life has to matter to someone. No matter-

Speaker 32:26 So here's the significant other part.

Speaker 32:27 It has to be your spouse, your kids, your parents, your friends, God.

Speaker 32:31 Oh, wow.

Speaker 32:32 You need to be significant. And when you're doing something with your sense of coherence, like conspiracy theories, that's ruining your relationships, then coherence goes up, but significance goes down and, and you're defeating the purpose.

Speaker 32:42 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 32:42 Those are different elements that have to be in balance.

Eugene 32:44 You become an expert in that subject, but alone in it.

Speaker 32:47 And if you-

Speaker 32:48 My mom said this a lot

Speaker 32:49 ... They're n- nice.

Speaker 32:50 My, and my mom said this a lot.

Speaker 32:51 I gotta meet your mom, because already your mom has made two appearances.

Eugene 32:54 Yes. My mom used to say, "If you love being right, you'll be right alone."

Speaker 32:58 Uh-huh.

Speaker 32:59 Mm-hmm.

Eugene 32:59 It makes so s- so much sense now

Speaker 33:00 Yeah, you'll be an expert, yeah

Speaker 33:01 ... you'll be certainly unmarried. [laughs] It's a good way to stay a bachelor.

Eugene 33:07 Man, you cutting, you cutting too deep, man. [laughs]

Speaker 33:10 [laughs] I've been married 34 years. I'm wrong a lot. [laughs]

Speaker 33:16 [laughs] I, but I guess that's the foundation of all relationship, right?

Eugene 33:19 Yeah.

Speaker 33:19 Is, is-

Speaker 33:20 Yeah

Eugene 33:20 ... significance.

Speaker 33:20 In fact, all society, funny enough, even if you just keep expanding on it-

Speaker 33:23 Yeah, that's right

Speaker 33:23 ... it becomes the, like, how much do you care about being right-

Speaker 33:26 Be- being right

Speaker 33:27 ... versus, yeah

Speaker 33:27 ... I mean, that's the whole basis of our, you know, culture of contempt. That's the whole basis of the fact that we can't get along politically, that we have ideological wars, cancel culture, all of it, is this grievance about having to be right all the time.

Speaker 33:38 Mm.

Speaker 33:38 As opposed to, "Huh, I wonder, I wonder if somebody actually is saying something interesting to me."

Speaker 33:44 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 33:44 Inquiry is not about being right. Inquiry is about learning.

Speaker 33:48 But the system isn't designed to reward that.

Speaker 33:49 Activism is about being right.

Speaker 33:51 Yes.

Speaker 33:52 And so when you get the wrong balance of inquiry and activism, it turns the ship over.

Speaker 33:56 Yeah, and, and that's why I'm saying the system is important, though.

Speaker 33:58 Right.

Speaker 33:58 Because what you just said about, like, our childhoods.

Speaker 34:00 Right.

Speaker 34:00 Something forms you.

Speaker 34:01 Right.

Speaker 34:02 Something shapes you.

Speaker 34:03 Right.

Speaker 34:03 And oftentimes it's how the people around you responded to an action that you took.

Speaker 34:07 Right.

Speaker 34:08 Right?

Speaker 34:08 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 34:08 So now because of your suspenders, they respond to you a certain way.

Speaker 34:11 Mm.

Speaker 34:11 Because of the way you sing, you responded to a c- because of the way I trip-

Speaker 34:14 Right

Speaker 34:14 ... they responded to me a certain way. Because of the way you fell-

Speaker 34:16 Right

Speaker 34:16 ... people respond to you a certain way. You respond-

Speaker 34:18 Right.

Speaker 34:19 When we're living in a world where the systems themselves are rewarding people for one versus the other-

Speaker 34:26 Right

Speaker 34:26 ... you don't get rewarded for compassion online.

Speaker 34:28 No.

Speaker 34:28 Let's be honest.

Speaker 34:29 No, you-

Speaker 34:29 You don't

Speaker 34:30 ... there's a, it's an entirely different scale of reward that you get. You get rewarded, but you don't get the same scale of reward, the same intensity of reward-

Speaker 34:39 Yes, yeah

Speaker 34:39 ... which is really, really important. You get a slow burn of what you're actually able to ha- like, you have a different kind of impact. You have to, you have to, to, to, um, become, I guess, comfortable with the idea that you're not gonna get the same intensity of reaction. And part of the reason for that, by the way, is the limbic system of the brain has more tissue dedicated to negative emotion than to positive emotion.

Eugene 35:00 Oh, wow.

Speaker 35:00 So why is that?

Speaker 35:01 Because in the evolutionary environment, in the Pleistocene-

Speaker 35:03 To avoid, yeah

Speaker 35:04 ... you needed negative emotions more than you needed positive emotions. Negative emotions are an alarm-

Speaker 35:08 Yeah, to avoid danger

Speaker 35:09 ... that, that, you fir- that, so fear, anger, disgust, and sadness, those are the four negative emotions.

Speaker 35:14 Wow.

Speaker 35:14 And all of them-

Eugene 35:14 You're good, man.

Speaker 35:15 He's a professor.

Speaker 35:16 That's, this is, this is, he's a, he's-

Speaker 35:17 He's a professor. I love the idea that Eugene would be in your class, like, "Yo, this guy."

Speaker 35:22 [laughs]

Speaker 35:22 "Yo. Hey, my man, I think you're gonna ace this class."

Speaker 35:26 I know. He's-

Speaker 35:26 "This guy."

Eugene 35:27 Good, man.

Speaker 35:27 "This guy in the front."

Speaker 35:28 I'm gonna pay you to come to my class.

Speaker 35:29 "By the way, I love your fly." [laughs]

Speaker 35:31 [laughs] Keep it down. Keep it d- [laughs]

Speaker 35:37 You're a horrible friend. [laughs]

Eugene 35:40 [laughs] Now he's yours, Arthur. [laughs]

Speaker 35:43 Perfect. You know, I got students who are big fans of yours, who are like, "I was there that day."

Speaker 35:48 [laughs]

Speaker 35:48 "I felt threatened."

Speaker 35:50 [laughs]

Speaker 35:50 "I felt unsafe."

Speaker 35:52 Actually, let's, w- by the way, let's, I'm gonna hold that as-

Speaker 35:54 Yes

Speaker 35:55 ... let's keep moving through

Speaker 35:55 ... we're going back, we're going down a crazy-

Speaker 35:56 Please. No, no, no. This is good.

Speaker 35:57 This is like a nesting doll of-

Speaker 35:59 This is the branches

Eugene 35:59 ... science

Speaker 35:59 ... this is exactly what it is

Speaker 36:00 ... this is like a Matryoshka Russian-

Eugene 36:02 You, you, you figured it out

Speaker 36:02 ... let's go.

Eugene 36:02 This is exactly what it is.

Speaker 36:03 Let's go. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 36:04 This is-

Speaker 36:04 But no, no, we'll hold that and we'll, let's, so keep,

Speaker 36:06 let's move the, so keep moving down the meaning-

Speaker 36:07 So, so the negative, the negative emotions-

Speaker 36:08 Yeah, yeah

Speaker 36:08 ... so the negative emotions exist because those are alarm systems for the things that can kill you. You know, you have-

Speaker 36:13 Right

Speaker 36:13 ... sadness so that you will not be rejected by your kin. We're, we're, in the, in the Pleistocene, human, Homo sapiens lived in bands of 30 to 50 individuals.

Speaker 36:22 Okay.

Speaker 36:22 Kin-based hierarchical bands of individuals. And, and, and the Pleistocene, starting 250,000 years ago, was when we got the modern brain. Our brains are the same. And so all the weird stuff that we do today is because it's, it was suitable to being in b- hierarchical kin-based bands of 30 to 50 individuals. It explains almost everything.

Speaker 36:40 Huh.

Speaker 36:40 It explains how genders work together. It explains why we have envy, why we try to climb in hierarchies, why we wanna be famous. All that stuff is, is actually explained by this, the Pleistocene brain-

Speaker 36:52 Mm

Speaker 36:52 ... is what it comes down to. But also that Pleistocene brain had a lot more space for the negative emotions. Positive emotions are nice to have. Negative emotions keep you alive. And so if you-

Speaker 37:03 Okay

Speaker 37:03 ... hear a little snap of a twig behind you, your first reaction is not, "Uh-" I bet that's my friend Trevor who's come to say hi. You know, like, you j- run and ask-

Speaker 37:12 Yeah

Speaker 37:12 ... questions later.

Speaker 37:13 Yeah.

Speaker 37:14 And, and you know, you, you wanna make sure that you're not gonna be abandoned, you wanna make sure you're not gonna get killed, you wanna make sure you don't ingest poison. That's what disgust is for. There's a beautiful little place in the limbic system called the an- the, the insular cortex, and that little thing is your, is your disgust mechanism. And that's all that kept you from ingesting poison before there was, like, vaccines and antibiotics.

Speaker 37:34 It was just a signifier that-

Speaker 37:35 Yeah

Speaker 37:35 ... this thing could kill you.

Speaker 37:36 Yeah. That's why something that smells dead, something that smells rotten, that's why it disgusts you. And that's why your dog, who's very disgusting by the way, that's why he licks the floor, because he is actually not gonna be exposed to the same kind of pathogens because of, you know, the, the, the, the constituent parts of his saliva that can neutralize some of the germs that you can't. That's why he's like, "That's not disgusting." And yet you think that's disgusting and you tell your kids not to lick the floor. Anyway, I digress. The whole point is thank God for negative emotions. They've kept you alive again and again and again and again.

Speaker 38:07 But now you wanna be in a place where your negative emotions are in control?

Speaker 38:11 Well, you wanna manage them so they don't manage you-

Speaker 38:14 Mm

Speaker 38:14 ... 'cause we're not in the Pleistocene.

Speaker 38:16 Mm.

Speaker 38:16 And that's why we have this great big prefrontal cortex, all this tissue behind the forehead-

Speaker 38:21 Mm-hmm

Speaker 38:21 ... 30% of your brain by weight.

Speaker 38:22 Mm.

Speaker 38:22 That gives you consciousness, right? Your dog doesn't have consciousness. Your dog doesn't know it's alive. Your dog doesn't know it's gonna die. Your dog doesn't have future ideas or past ideas. Your dog's just here now. That's why your dog's happier than you are.

Speaker 38:34 It can't tell time, yes.

Speaker 38:35 Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. 'Cause your dog understands-

Speaker 38:37 It's why your dog is happier than you

Speaker 38:39 ... 'cause your dog's mindful. Your dog is like, you're thinking about, "Well, I gotta do this thing. I gotta, so I hope I get a, I hope my flight's on time tomorrow," and you know, it's like, "I got this thing. It's, aw man, I have, had a falling out with somebody I really care about, and what's gonna happen next year, and what if the economy tanks?" And your golden retriever's like, "I'm sitting here with Trevor."

Speaker 38:58 You-

Speaker 38:58 "Right now"

Speaker 38:58 ... you are remembering, your dog is enjoying.

Speaker 39:01 Your dog is here now. Here now. You're not. You're in the

Speaker 39:04 future.

Speaker 39:04 So does that also mean that your dog can experience a lot more stress and pain because the now can last forever for it?

Speaker 39:13 Well-

Speaker 39:13 Like, let's say your, your dog's experiencing an adverse experience.

Speaker 39:17 Right.

Speaker 39:17 Is that thing lasting forever in its mind?

Speaker 39:19 Well, the limbic system for the dog is pretty... The, the Homo sapiens and canines have, they, they, they, they actually evolved in parallel.

Speaker 39:26 Okay.

Speaker 39:27 So they have very f- very similar emotions. So when you think, when your dog looks at you with lo- do you have a dog?

Speaker 39:32 No. I had one.

Speaker 39:33 Yeah.

Speaker 39:33 Long story.

Speaker 39:34 And, and, and your dog looked at you with love, right?

Speaker 39:35 Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker 39:36 Your dog was feeling love. Your dog-

Speaker 39:38 Yeah

Speaker 39:38 ... actually gets oxytocin, which is a neuropeptide in the brain, the bonding hormone-

Speaker 39:41 Yes

Speaker 39:41 ... the sense of love that you get when you look at your kids and your friends and your, your, your beloved. Your dog looks at you and you stroke the dog and give your dog eye contact, he gets a 56% bump in oxytocin, just like you.

Speaker 39:53 Wow.

Speaker 39:54 Your cat, 12%.

Speaker 39:56 I knew it. Assholes. I always say this.

Speaker 39:57 Hold on. Your, your dog loves you. Your cat-

Speaker 39:59 We shouldn't even say-

Speaker 40:00 ... tolerates you

Speaker 40:01 ... your cat. You should say the cat-

Speaker 40:01 The cat could do without you.

Speaker 40:02 Hey.

Speaker 40:02 Yeah.

Speaker 40:02 Let's say the cat you live with. Please, let's stop perpetuating this myth. It is not your cat.

Speaker 40:06 Ooh.

Speaker 40:06 It is a cat that lives at your house.

Speaker 40:08 It's eating your s- eating your food.

Speaker 40:09 Those things do not, that is not your cat. There are a few cats that are exceptions. I know some cat owners who be like, "My cat's nice." That's your cat.

Speaker 40:16 That's a-

Speaker 40:16 It's an outlier.

Speaker 40:16 It-

Speaker 40:17 Most cats, they're not your friends.

Speaker 40:18 Cats are takers.

Speaker 40:20 My man.

Speaker 40:20 Yeah, yeah. Anyway.

Speaker 40:22 [laughs]

Speaker 40:23 We digress again. So that's all about, you know, negative emotion is really, really interesting and useful-

Speaker 40:28 Wow

Speaker 40:28 ... is the whole point about that. Where were we? We're talking about meaning, right?

Speaker 40:31 So now meaning. Meaning was the thing which-

Speaker 40:33 I did. So we did-

Speaker 40:33 So we're breaking down-

Speaker 40:34 ... coherence and significance.

Speaker 40:34 Yes.

Speaker 40:34 But there's one more.

Speaker 40:35 Yeah, what?

Speaker 40:35 The most important one, purpose. Purpose. So everybody thinks meaning and purpose are the same. They're not. They're not the same. Purpose is a subcomponent of meaning. That's your goals and direction and sense of what you're doing with your life. It's the answer to the question, why am I doing what I'm doing?

Speaker 40:51 Okay.

Speaker 40:51 And if you don't know the answer to the question, why am I doing what I'm doing, you're not gonna have meaning and you're not gonna be happy. That's why if you have kids, the, one of the most important ways to actually motivate them to do things with more joy is to give them a sense of purpose-

Speaker 41:05 Purpose, yeah

Speaker 41:06 ... which is goals and direction for a better future.

Speaker 41:08 Give me an example of that at, like, different age levels for a parent, for instance.

Speaker 41:11 So-

Speaker 41:11 So let's say, let's say it's a five-year-old, a 15-year-old, and a 25-year-old.

Speaker 41:15 So a five-year-old is, the way that you motivate a five-year-old is that you say, "If you're a good little boy, Santa Claus is gonna bring you some nice presents."

Speaker 41:25 Okay.

Speaker 41:25 You're motivating them to behave in a particular way happily, because that's their kind of little kid purpose.

Speaker 41:30 Mm-hmm. Got it.

Speaker 41:31 Is getting the, getting the Christmas morning and getting a bunch of stuff under the tree. You get a little bit older, it's like, "Get good grades in school, you're gonna get, get to go to a good university and you're gonna have a better life."

Speaker 41:41 Huh.

Speaker 41:41 When you get a little bit older in life, it's going to be, "If you actually behave in a particular way, you're gonna meet the love of your life, and that's really gonna complete you."

Speaker 41:49 So it's always reward-based.

Speaker 41:51 It's always reward-based.

Speaker 41:51 Are we just, like, reward-

Speaker 41:52 It's kinda goal-based

Speaker 41:53 Mm.

Speaker 41:53 It's kinda getting to a particular goal and making progress toward the goal. So what, how we're really wired, which is really interesting-

Speaker 41:58 Yeah

Speaker 41:59 ... we think that what we really want is the reward. What we really want is progress toward the reward.

Speaker 42:03 Yeah.

Speaker 42:04 And if we think that we're gonna be in bliss when we get to the reward, we're gonna, we suffer from a, a syndrome called arrival fallacy.

Speaker 42:11 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 42:12 It's a funny thing. It's very common that Olympic athletes who win the gold suffer a clinical depression in the two, two months after they win the gold, because they've been suffering, suffering and suffering. And they think that all this progress, which was awesome, is actually gonna lead to permanent bliss when they win the gold.

Speaker 42:28 Wow.

Speaker 42:28 And it's just another day. They go back to their hotel, they're like, you know, looking at the wall.

Speaker 42:32 With this thing around their neck.

Speaker 42:34 Yeah. With a thing around their neck and it's just another day, and they're looking at the rest of their lives when they're no longer winning Olympic gold medals, and it's very, very depressing. So this is a funny thing about dieting, is another example of this. All diets will make you lose weight. I mean, e- and except for the all candy corn diet or something, right?

Speaker 42:48 Yeah, right.

Speaker 42:48 I mean, there's, like, any sensible diet [laughs] you can cut fat, you can cut carbs, you can cut, right? You'll lose weight. And, and it's awesome, right? If you're trying to lose weight, because the scale goes down. It's a reward every single day and progress toward the goal. But what, what's the reward when you actually hit your target weight? And that's never getting to eat what you like ever again for the rest of your life.

Speaker 43:08 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 43:08 Congratulations.

Speaker 43:09 Damn.

Speaker 43:09 That's why diets don't work. They got about an 80% failure rate, and 30% of people who go on strong diets and hit their goal developing an eating disorder, 'cause they wanna keep making progress. Because progress is everything in life.

Speaker 43:24 We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break. All right, Eugene

Speaker 43:31 Mm

Speaker 43:31 ... let's play a little game. You know, make something fun. Two truths and a lie.

Speaker 43:36 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 43:36 Here we go. One, I've had to tell a world leader that their fly was undone. Two, when getting dressed, I don't do sock, sock, shoe, shoe. I do sock, shoe, sock, shoe. Three, I've been a Verizon customer for 11 years. What do you think?

Speaker 43:53 Hm. Very confused. First of all, why would a world leader own a fly? 'Cause those things just come uninvited. Secondly, lying to a friend is not cool. It's never been a game.

Speaker 44:03 No, Eugene, a f- a fly is for, like the zip is what... And then it's, it's g- it's not a lie, it's a game where I'm try- it's like I give you inform- okay, I lied. All three are true, Eugene. And in case you were thinking, you know, Verizon isn't as expensive as you think. In fact, if you bring in your AT&T or T-Mobile bill, they'll give you a better deal. And the reason I've been with them for this long is just because I travel so much. I need a network that's reliable. That's right, a better deal on the best network, with the most ways to save on plans, streaming, and phone deals. Take your AT&T or T-Mobile bill to your local Verizon store today. Get your better deal and start saving for real. Based on RootMetrics' best overall mobile network performance, US, second half 2025. All rights reserved. You must provide recent consumer mobile bill in the name of the person redeeming the deal. Additional terms, conditions, and restrictions apply. So do you understand how two truths and a ... Do, do you understand it now?

Speaker 45:05 I understand that you didn't have to lie first before telling me that Verizon is the best.

Speaker 45:09 No, I wasn't lying f- Eugene, it's not a lie. I wouldn't lie to you. It, it's a game. Okay, I'm sorry. I lied. Ah.

Speaker 45:17 [laughs]

Speaker 45:18 [laughs] [gentle music] I think about, like, um, conversations I have with my younger brother are always fascinating to me because of how he sees the world.

Speaker 45:35 Yeah.

Speaker 45:35 I think he's one of the smartest people I know, and I always tell him at his age, he's way smarter than I ever was, maybe even now, you know? But we, we had this conversation about video games. And I said to him, "There's a, there's a video online that, that I really loved," and it was some kid who made this video said, um, "How you play v- video games is how you live your life."

Speaker 45:54 Hm.

Speaker 45:54 Right? And I was so intrigued by this because he, he did this whole breakdown. He said, "Some people play video games to finish the video game."

Speaker 46:01 Right.

Speaker 46:02 "They get in, they try and finish the story as quickly as possible, get to the end, save the princess, you know-"

Speaker 46:07 Right.

Speaker 46:07 "... end the story." Thank you very much. And he said, "Some people play video games and then get bored and quit. Some people ... " All, everyone has different methods, but he said, "But you can learn a lot about yourself because playing a video game, especially in today's games, is like a simulation of how you are."

Speaker 46:20 Right. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 46:20 And I realized for myself, and I realized for what a good game is, great games are the ones that make you feel like you're trying to finish the game, but constantly trick you into doing things along the way-

Speaker 46:36 Side quests

Speaker 46:37 ... the side quests, that make you feel like you're actually trying to get to the end, but you get so swept up in these mini-moments along the way that you enjoy the game itself.

Speaker 46:46 'Cause it's the progress.

Speaker 46:47 Right? But those are the great games.

Speaker 46:48 It's the journey.

Speaker 46:49 Yeah, they do it for you, but I've realized-

Speaker 46:50 And they do say it like that. It's progress.

Speaker 46:51 Yes.

Speaker 46:52 You get progress points.

Speaker 46:52 They literally write progress.

Speaker 46:53 Yeah.

Speaker 46:53 But I've noticed in the games where they don't do that for you-

Speaker 46:56 Hm

Speaker 46:57 ... if you're not careful, you can, and I'd love you to speak to this, uh, like, beyond gaming, but it's like if they don't do it for you, there's some games where you can literally just go straight to the end as quickly as possible-

Speaker 47:10 Right

Speaker 47:10 ... and be done, and I find you can be very depressed, as-

Speaker 47:15 Right

Speaker 47:15 ... you say. You get then, you're like, "Ah, I don't know about this."

Speaker 47:17 I don't like this game.

Speaker 47:18 "This, this was it?" You know?

Speaker 47:20 It's disappointing game.

Speaker 47:20 And it was, and it was too hard-

Speaker 47:21 Mm-hmm

Speaker 47:21 ... by the way because you didn't, like, level up the way you should have. Or there's the, the, the inverse whereas you spend so much time in the side quests that you don't move towards progress.

Speaker 47:31 Right.

Speaker 47:31 Because nothing's pushing you, nothing's

Speaker 47:33 propelling you, noth- you know what I mean?

Speaker 47:34 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 47:34 And then what happens is you quit the game.

Speaker 47:36 Right.

Speaker 47:36 So you play, like, 40% of the game. You do everything around getting to the end.

Speaker 47:41 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 47:41 But then you don't get to the end because the game didn't ... It's, I forget what they call it, but essentially some games will dole it out in the right amount.

Speaker 47:47 Right.

Speaker 47:47 You're moving forward. Now you're moving sideways, sideways, sid-

Speaker 47:49 Right

Speaker 47:49 ... moving forward, sideways, sid- some go do whatever you want. And it's interesting how that flips, and I wondered how, how that applies to life in what you're saying.

Speaker 47:55 The, almost everything is like this. People who, who truly are all about enjoying the journey, they enjoy their lives because they understand that life is all about making progress toward particular moral goals. People who are all about actually getting to the end. So w- what, what's a, the best predictor of having a crummy marriage is having a destination wedding. Why? Because your wedding-

Speaker 48:16 Mm

Speaker 48:16 ... isn't a destination. Your wedding is just-

Speaker 48:19 Mm

Speaker 48:19 ... the beginning of a journey. Destination wedding. Destination. My destination is actually-

Speaker 48:24 You're beginning something with a end

Speaker 48:26 ... locking that person down forever. No. There's no, there's no destination in your wedding. E- elope. Justice of the peace. I'm Catholic. Don't do that. We're Catholic.

Speaker 48:35 [laughs]

Speaker 48:35 We don't do that. Yeah.

Speaker 48:36 Remember that.

Speaker 48:36 Priest. Go to a priest.

Speaker 48:37 Oh, Father, hallowed be thy name.

Speaker 48:39 Go to a priest. Go to a priest. Go to a priest.

Speaker 48:39 By, by thy way to Osama Zulu. [laughs]

Speaker 48:41 There you go. I, I want it in Zulu.

Speaker 48:43 Oh, yeah. No. [laughs]

Speaker 48:44 Yeah. I want Zulu because, you know, my grandparents didn't lose it, run to Zulu. They got like [laughs]

Speaker 48:50 [laughs]

Speaker 48:50 Like, um. [laughs]

Speaker 48:50 This man is 10 months Zulu. You don't forget that.

Speaker 48:52 It's like, yeah, it's, uh, e- epi-

Speaker 48:53 His-

Speaker 48:53 ... genetic expression.

Speaker 48:54 Yes.

Speaker 48:54 You know, it's gonna come out. [laughs] So, so, so this is really important, right?

Speaker 48:58 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 48:59 You gotta see your wedding day as a step in progress toward the eternal bliss that actually comes from a, a relationship, your soulmate with whom you can actually experience-

Speaker 49:09 Wow

Speaker 49:09 ... the divine.

Speaker 49:10 Ooh.

Speaker 49:10 And on whose face you'll be gazing as you take your dying breath.

Speaker 49:14 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 49:15 That's marriage.

Speaker 49:16 That's poetry.

Speaker 49:17 Marriage isn't wedding day.

Speaker 49:19 So then do you, do you think-

Speaker 49:21 Hm

Speaker 49:21 ... the worst thing we've done in, and I'm not trying to intercept you because this is what I think, but I'll tell you what I think, and you tell me if you agree.

Speaker 49:29 I've often thought one of the worst things that happened to society was a series of movies, whether it was kids movies or adult movies, rom-coms-

Speaker 49:39 Rom-coms

Speaker 49:39 ... but that were happily ever after. Like, they, they ended at the moment where the people met. And I-

Speaker 49:46 So here's the problem

Speaker 49:46 ... I always wondered what that did to people's brains growing up in a world where they went like, "Oh, if you meet the person you love, that's the end," and then it's like, "This is it." Like, what-

Speaker 49:55 That's right

Speaker 49:55 ... what, what is that?

Speaker 49:57 That is the same idea. [laughs]

Speaker 49:59 I never finished Pac-Man.

Speaker 50:00 Remember? It was they meet and then who do, Ms. Pac-Man.

Speaker 50:01 Yeah, but I never, I've never f- seen the end of Pac-Man.

Speaker 50:04 Yeah. Yeah. So-

Speaker 50:05 I saw Junior Pac-Man, so I know what they did, but I don't know-

Speaker 50:08 But there's Junior Pac-Man?

Speaker 50:09 Yeah, Junior Pac-Man happened for sure.

Speaker 50:10 Junior Pac-Man.

Speaker 50:10 There was Junior Pac-Man.

Speaker 50:11 Junior Pac-Man.

Speaker 50:12 Yeah, Junior Pac-Man. So I knew that-

Speaker 50:13 Like baby, baby Pac-Man.

Speaker 50:13 Yeah, like a tiny little Pac-Man, had a little bow, and then the pickety pickety, but like a tiny little Pac-Man.

Speaker 50:17 So it was a girl Pac-Man.

Speaker 50:18 Yeah, there was a boy and a girl.

Speaker 50:19 They had the top.

Speaker 50:19 There was a boy and a girl.

Speaker 50:20 Ms. Pac-

Speaker 50:20 No, there was Ms. Pac-Man.

Speaker 50:21 No.

Speaker 50:21 But then there was also Junior Pac-Man.

Speaker 50:22 Yeah. Junior Pac-Man. Good. Yeah.

Speaker 50:23 Yeah, no, no, they m- they-

Speaker 50:24 The whole family

Speaker 50:25 ... yeah, Pac-Man had-

Speaker 50:25 I like these family values in video games like this.

Speaker 50:27 Yeah, yeah, no, Pac-Man did it, bruh. I was like, "Okay."

Speaker 50:29 Yeah, Mario and Luigi did it well.

Speaker 50:31 They were brothers, bruh.

Speaker 50:32 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 50:32 Did you mi- mixing up the story?

Speaker 50:34 Yeah, they were family members.

Speaker 50:35 Oh, yeah, they were. They were.

Speaker 50:36 Yeah, my kids, my kids are, you know, they'd be, they'd be like, "What are these guys? Pac-Man? What are they talking about?"

Speaker 50:40 Okay, Elden Ring. Fine, we'll bring in Elden Ring.

Speaker 50:42 Super Mario?

Speaker 50:42 Call of, Call of Duty. We'll go with ... We got every game covered here. You, you tell us the generation.

Speaker 50:47 [laughs] I don't know.

Speaker 50:48 And we've got you.

Speaker 50:49 Yeah.

Speaker 50:49 We've got you.

Speaker 50:50 Yeah. All right.

Speaker 50:51 We got you. It doesn't matter what it is. But, but help, help us un- like-

Speaker 50:54 Yeah, this is a problem. Uh, happily ever after actually gives you a distorted understanding of what brings happiness in life. It's the journey. It's the journey. It's the, it's w- It's walking into the future together with your beloved. It's actually the, the, the, the, the process of actually Lewis and Clark looking for and going down the Missouri River as they're going toward the Pacific Ocean. It's not the Pacific Ocean. You just have to have ... There's a, there's a really great word in Spanish that's a metaphoric word. It's a sailing word. It's called rumbo.

Speaker 51:20 Rumbo.

Speaker 51:21 Rumbo. Rumbo. El rumbo.

Speaker 51:23 El rumbo.

Speaker 51:23 El rumbo. El rumbo. El rumbo is the, the word in English is rhumb line, R-H-U-M line.

Speaker 51:28 Boring.

Speaker 51:28 And it's a sail- I know. It's a sa- But it's not a metaphor that we use typically. That is the, the, the, the destination that's a Euclidian straight line from here to there.

Speaker 51:37 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 51:38 It's like the, the piece of yarn at the, with a pin on the end of it, right?

Speaker 51:41 Okay. Flying like the-

Speaker 51:42 What-

Speaker 51:42 What do they call it? Straight as the crow flies?

Speaker 51:44 As the crow flies.

Speaker 51:45 As the crow flies.

Speaker 51:45 As the crow flies.

Speaker 51:46 Yes.

Speaker 51:46 Exactly right.

Speaker 51:47 Okay.

Speaker 51:47 So and, and, and that's, that's an important concept because you say, "I want my life to have el rumbo. I want yo quiero que mi vida tenga un rumbo."

Speaker 51:55 Okay.

Speaker 51:55 That's what you would say-

Speaker 51:56 Okay

Speaker 51:56 ... you would say in Spanish, right? And, and what that means basically is I wanna have a destination. I wanna have a, I wanna have a, a something that is the arrival so that I can make progress. The point is not that you're gonna be on this line the whole time.

Speaker 52:08 Mm-hmm. Oh, okay.

Speaker 52:09 The point is that you gotta, you have to have it, but because you can m- you can't make the journey without it, otherwise you're gonna be like a ... You know what's so depressing about cruises?

Speaker 52:17 Oh.

Speaker 52:18 There's a cruise ship. I don't want that.

Speaker 52:22 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 52:22 I don't wanna get in a boat and just go in circles.

Speaker 52:24 Okay.

Speaker 52:25 Because that doesn't feel like you're making progress

Speaker 52:27 in life.

Speaker 52:27 Oh, now you're a Roomba. Very different.

Speaker 52:29 Nice.

Speaker 52:29 Not going in one straight line.

Speaker 52:31 That's, that's like the, the vacuum cleaner, right?

Speaker 52:32 Yes. That little, that little-

Speaker 52:33 Yeah.

Speaker 52:33 Have you seen how that thing moves? You don't want your life like that.

Speaker 52:35 Didn't they, didn't they just go bankrupt? Didn't the company go bankrupt?

Speaker 52:37 I wouldn't be shocked because, I mean, have you seen that thing?

Speaker 52:38 These kind of reviews.

Speaker 52:39 I mean, no wonder.

Speaker 52:41 [laughs]

Speaker 52:41 Of course.

Speaker 52:42 It's a, it's a metaphor of unhappiness. So what do you want? [laughs]

Speaker 52:45 So that's, so that's interesting. You, you, you wanna be in a place where ... I mean, this is, this requires a total rewiring of the brain though.

Speaker 52:52 Yeah.

Speaker 52:52 Like how I, I even think about myself, I, I don't know how you would think about it for yous- But I, I think a lot of people would relate to this idea of going, "Wait, wait, wait, wait. But, but Professor Brooks, I've been told get the job-"

Speaker 53:03 Mm-hmm

Speaker 53:04 ... "and then life right."

Speaker 53:04 Right. No, get the grades.

Speaker 53:05 Get the grades.

Speaker 53:06 Yeah.

Speaker 53:06 And then I'm gonna get the job.

Speaker 53:07 Yeah.

Speaker 53:07 Like, the grades is the job.

Speaker 53:09 Right. And then get the house.

Speaker 53:09 Get the job.

Speaker 53:10 Right.

Speaker 53:10 You're gonna be ... Then you get the house, you're gonna be happy. Get the person you're in the house with.

Speaker 53:14 Get the car.

Speaker 53:14 You're good.

Speaker 53:14 Yeah. You get the marriage. You get the marriage.

Speaker 53:15 You get the marriage. Yeah.

Speaker 53:15 It's like pe- Guys even say, like-

Speaker 53:17 Yeah

Speaker 53:17 ... "If you marry me, you'll make me happy for the rest of my life." That's what they say.

Speaker 53:22 Yeah.

Speaker 53:22 And I got, look, I got data on that. Mm-mm. Mm-mm. No. It doesn't matter what you say on your wedding day. It matters what you say every day after that.

Speaker 53:30 So what should you say to somebody? Not, "If you marry me, then..."

Speaker 53:33 Let's go on a journey together.

Speaker 53:35 Ah, okay.

Speaker 53:36 Help complete me.

Speaker 53:37 Mm. Oh, okay.

Speaker 53:38 Because together we'll wire our batteries together. We'll create an antenna to God. Yeah. Teach me something.

Speaker 53:43 That's, that's beautiful.

Speaker 53:44 Let's work, let's, uh, let's walk through life together.

Speaker 53:46 Yeah.

Speaker 53:47 Let's walk, I wanna walk through life together.

Speaker 53:49 Damn, that's different.

Speaker 53:51 Yeah. It's a completely different perspective, but it actually makes perfect sense, and people kinda know that that's the case. And, and if you don't do that, by the way, there's a easy neurobiology on why this happens. We think that if we get that thing, that burst of, of, of positive emotion, there's this funny little part of the brain called the ventral tegmental area, and when you tap it, it gives you this, this sense of euphoria. And so you can get it from, you know, your girlfriend says, "I love you," or you can get it from a huge bump of cocaine. We have very thrifty brains.

Speaker 54:20 [laughs]

Speaker 54:21 It's the same part of-

Speaker 54:21 What a broad spectrum.

Speaker 54:23 Yeah, yeah. Totally. Like jik. And, and it gives you the sense of immediate ebullience, joy, right? And we think we get that thing that we really, really want, that the ventral tegmental area's gonna get tapped over and over and over again. But let me tell you, if you do something that taps your ventral tegmental area continuously, you're gonna wind up in rehab.

Speaker 54:38 You're on, you're on drugs. Yep.

Speaker 54:39 You're gonna, you're gonna, you're an addict. I mean, that's exactly-

Speaker 54:42 Is, is that so, is that because we weren't designed to have the ventral tegmental tapped that many times? Or-

Speaker 54:47 We're not designed to feel emotion continuously.

Speaker 54:51 Yeah.

Speaker 54:51 Remember, emotions are an alarm that there's something good for you or something bad for you, that you should, you should approach or avoid. The, the, the reptilian part of your brain in the back of your head is sensing stuff, sensing stuff, sensing stuff.

Speaker 55:03 Mm.

Speaker 55:03 That sends data to the limbic system, which is between two and 40 million years old. Old. It, it, it predates homo sapiens, and that's what creates emotions. Emotions are reactions, a, a universal language to you that there's something out there, that there's a threat or an opportunity. And the opportunities give you positive emotion, and then, and the threats out there give you negative emotion.

Speaker 55:23 Negative.

Speaker 55:23 And they clear really quickly so you're ready for the next thing.

Speaker 55:25 So should we be in n- nothing states?

Speaker 55:28 No. No, no, no. We should actually, say, understand our emotions.

Speaker 55:31 Emptiness state. Yeah.

Speaker 55:31 Not chase them as if we're gonna keep them forever. For example, if you're looking for continuous positive emotion on the basic, basis of what you have or experience, you get on what we call the hedonic treadmill.

Speaker 55:41 Ah, yes.

Speaker 55:42 You've heard about this.

Speaker 55:42 Hedonic adaptation.

Speaker 55:43 Yeah.

Speaker 55:43 Yes.

Speaker 55:43 Hedonic adaptation, which is basically I get the, I get the, you know, the person that I love, I get the money, I get the, uh, the millionth Instagram follower, whatever my thing is.

Speaker 55:53 You just keep shifting your, your, yeah. Focus.

Speaker 55:53 And you're just running, running, running, running, running.

Speaker 55:55 Yeah.

Speaker 55:55 And that treadmill starts speeding up until it's, it's going with terrifying speed, and then you're afraid to step off it because you're gonna face plant if you try to step off a speeding treadmill.

Speaker 56:04 Mm. Yeah.

Speaker 56:04 And that's no way to live.

Speaker 56:06 Yeah.

Speaker 56:06 And you're hedonically adapting, which is called homeostasis, where the brain is adapting emotionally back to the baseline state so you're ready for the next set of circumstances.

Speaker 56:13 One of the best pieces of advice I ever received in my life came from Uh, my best friend's dad, when we were still in school

Speaker 56:19 Mm

Speaker 56:19 ... and they had grown to do well for themselves. They didn't gr- you know, he didn't grow up doing well, and so he had a, a nice car, they had a very-

Speaker 56:28 Right

Speaker 56:28 ... decent house, but it wasn't, like, super wealthy. It wasn't a mansion or anything. But I remember speaking to him once and I said, um, I asked him, I was like, "Yo, Bub and Taylor, can I ask you a question? How much money do I need to earn to be, like, happy and, and to be set-

Speaker 56:41 [laughs]

Speaker 56:41 ... and to be good?"

Speaker 56:42 What did he tell you?

Speaker 56:43 And he said to me, he said, "Yes, Trevor." He said, "Can I tell you something?" He said, "I know some people," and this was, I mean, now 20 years ago. He said, "I know some people who earn," and he said, like, he said, "I know some people who earn 5,000 rand a month," $500, let's say, or 250, whatever. And he's like, "And I know some people who earn 50,000

Speaker 57:01 rand a month." I was like, "50,000 rand a month?"

Speaker 57:02 That's insane.

Speaker 57:03 "That's impossible."

Speaker 57:03 Yeah, right.

Speaker 57:03 "That's im- no one can earn that kind of money." And he's like, "No." He said, "Let me tell you now." He said, "I know more of my friends who earn the 5, 10,000 rand a month who are happy than I do the ones who earn the 50,000." He said, "Because with them, they spend that money and more every month, then get depressed that they only have it-"

Speaker 57:23 Right

Speaker 57:23 ... and then they try and move it to 60. Then they spend 60, then they move it to 70. Then they spend 70." Then he said, "I've watched them move up that ladder."

Speaker 57:30 Hm.

Speaker 57:30 And, and he said, he genuinely, and I'm, I'm, like, 16 years old, and he said to me, "I know it seems like a myth, but there is no number." He said, "I've seen everyone in my life."

Speaker 57:39 Right.

Speaker 57:39 He said, "There just, there is no number." And I was like, I, I just, I can't believe anyone wouldn't be happy with 50,000 rand a month. My brain was like, "That's not possible."

Speaker 57:48 And the same thing is true with power, and the same thing is true with pleasure, and the same thing is true with fame. Fame is the worst, by the way. Fame is the only one of life's rewards that you can only ever be happy in spite of, never because of. But you wanna be famous. Everybody wants to be famous, 'cause fame is rising in the hierarchy of your band of 30 to 50 individuals.

Speaker 58:09 Hm.

Speaker 58:10 Where more people are thinking about you than you're thinking about, because you'll get more, you're more likely to survive, get your caloric needs met, and get lots of mates. The trouble is that we can't accommodate that tendency to a world in which we can actually be famous in front of millions of people. That will make you-

Speaker 58:24 Oh

Speaker 58:24 ... literally insane.

Speaker 58:25 Okay.

Speaker 58:26 It will make you literally insane unless you're very self-governing, unless you're really self-managing. And you know tons of people in show business-

Speaker 58:32 Yeah

Speaker 58:33 ... that are pretty nuts. They're pretty nuts, 'cause they're on this treadmill of more and more and more, and-

Speaker 58:38 Yeah

Speaker 58:38 ... I can't have enough, and it's like drinking seawater. The more that I drink, the th- the thirstier I get.

Speaker 58:41 The more dehydrated they get.

Speaker 58:42 Exactly right.

Speaker 58:43 Yeah. It's, it's, it's also, it also does this thing to you where, you know, when you think about, like, the fame of it all and how powerful it is, I've often thought one of the most genius things that TikTok did, that I don't think any other social media platform ever did, but I, I, I watched it on TikTok, TikTok allows everyone to go viral.

Speaker 59:04 Hm.

Speaker 59:05 If you look at old social media, there wa- there was sort of, like, the hierarchy that existed in old media moved-

Speaker 59:09 Right

Speaker 59:09 ... into it.

Speaker 59:10 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 59:10 So on Instagram, it was still like, oh, the most video, the most watched is, is the Kardashians, and then there's this actor, and this-

Speaker 59:15 Mm

Speaker 59:15 ... you know what I mean? It was very difficult to just be-

Speaker 59:17 Right Random

Speaker 59:18 ... random-

Speaker 59:18 Right

Speaker 59:19 ... and have ... No, no, no. TikTok, go to people's accounts,

Speaker 59:23 watch how there's one video almost everyone has that is an outlier-

Speaker 59:26 Right. Yeah

Speaker 59:27 ... that's a blip in their world, and then watch how their usage and posting-

Speaker 59:30 Right

Speaker 59:31 ... exponentially jumps after that.

Speaker 59:32 This is, this is Vegas. It works, it works the brain in the same way. So-

Speaker 59:35 Las Vegas?

Speaker 59:36 Yeah. So the, the, the way to get rich is to work really hard and get a good education, and, and, and be responsible and show up, and, and create value, and create some more value. And, and then, and then dot, dot, dot, 30 or 40 years later you got a bunch of money. Or go to a casino-

Speaker 59:51 Mm

Speaker 59:52 ... and get, and get ahead. [laughs] And so the result is, I want the easy way.

Speaker 59:57 Play the lottery.

Speaker 59:58 Ching, ching.

Speaker 59:58 Yeah.

Speaker 59:59 Right? Roulette, that's TikTok. That's how the algorithm works. I'm gonna get ahead. I get ahead fast, because you want it-

Speaker 1:00:07 And the videos get more and more extreme

Speaker 1:00:08 ... and it wants it.

Speaker 1:00:09 Yo, man, they give you one, and I've watched people-

Speaker 1:00:12 Never been on TikTok

Speaker 1:00:13 ... I've watched peop- like, so crazy sto-

Speaker 1:00:16 Never

Speaker 1:00:16 ... this is the random thing, thank God for me. My friend signed up to TikTok for me when it first came out. I, I was like, "I can't keep up anymore."

Speaker 1:00:22 Yeah.

Speaker 1:00:22 And he was like, "No, no, no, I'll just do it for you because you don't wanna lose your account, and it's gonna be the biggest thing." And he was right. And, um, because, because he was on it for me, he was just using it, and he lived in, like, West Virginia, and all the content was to him. And so to this day, our algorithm, the algorithm's not, like, completely correct, and it didn't hook me.

Speaker 1:00:40 Right.

Speaker 1:00:41 So I, I get to enjoy TikTok as a pop, but I've never-

Speaker 1:00:44 As a bystander

Speaker 1:00:45 ... I've literally never been on TikTok for more than-

Speaker 1:00:47 So are you hooked on any social media?

Speaker 1:00:47 ... more than six minutes, seven minutes. I deleted them because of that.

Speaker 1:00:50 Ah, yeah, because it hooked you.

Speaker 1:00:52 So I had to put as many-

Speaker 1:00:54 Which one? Which one got you the most?

Speaker 1:00:54 ... inconveniences. Any of them could ... Twitter-

Speaker 1:00:57 Twitter?

Speaker 1:00:57 ... Twitter could get me, like, all day, every day.

Speaker 1:00:59 Really?

Speaker 1:01:00 Twitter?

Speaker 1:01:00 Yeah.

Speaker 1:01:00 Ooh-wee.

Speaker 1:01:01 No, no, no, no, these, uh, Twitter's very-

Speaker 1:01:02 News, news from here, information, information.

Speaker 1:01:04 Ex-

Speaker 1:01:04 Did you know this

Speaker 1:01:05 about that?

Speaker 1:01:05 ... is very political.

Speaker 1:01:05 Did you know that?

Speaker 1:01:06 Very political.

Speaker 1:01:06 Any information.

Speaker 1:01:07 Yeah.

Speaker 1:01:07 It's, it's got you.

Speaker 1:01:08 And then Instagram-

Speaker 1:01:09 And then Instagram, ah, got you, got you, got you. It doesn't matter what, got, got you, got you, got you, got you.

Speaker 1:01:11 So you took the apps off your phone.

Speaker 1:01:13 Yeah, I, I deleted them.

Speaker 1:01:14 Yeah.

Speaker 1:01:14 And then now what I do is I log in on a browser, which is painful.

Speaker 1:01:17 Right.

Speaker 1:01:17 It doesn't render correctly.

Speaker 1:01:19 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:01:19 The images are off.

Speaker 1:01:20 Yeah.

Speaker 1:01:20 Sometimes it doesn't load. Just that, that block.

Speaker 1:01:23 You're trying to actually increase the transaction cost. [laughs]

Speaker 1:01:25 Yeah, that's, that's all I do, genuinely.

Speaker 1:01:27 Yeah.

Speaker 1:01:27 'Cause I, I don't, I don't believe ... I've tried many times to go, like, "I can handle this." I even put a block on my phone, five, like, 10 minutes, 20 minutes.

Speaker 1:01:34 Right.

Speaker 1:01:34 I was like, "I got this." And then my phone will be like, "You've reached your limit." And I'll, "Shut up, phone."

Speaker 1:01:38 Right.

Speaker 1:01:38 And I'll just go back in.

Speaker 1:01:39 One good way to do this, by the way, is put your phone on black and white, because it'll actually make your brain work differently as you interact with social media.

Speaker 1:01:46 Like you, when you change the color scale-

Speaker 1:01:48 Yeah

Speaker 1:01:48 ... grayscale on the phone.

Speaker 1:01:49 The grayscale on the phone. You'll be a-

Speaker 1:01:50 It actually, that actually works

Speaker 1:01:50 ... you'll be significantly less addicted.

Speaker 1:01:53 That actually-

Speaker 1:01:54 It's a, it-

Speaker 1:01:54 Wait, how does, how does that work?

Speaker 1:01:55 So it's basically like drinking 3.2 beer.

Speaker 1:01:57 I don't know what that means.

Speaker 1:01:58 That means 3.2% alcohol beer.

Speaker 1:02:00 Oh, okay. Got it.

Speaker 1:02:01 Right? And you'll be, like, bloated and peeing and, and, and you'll be like, "I'm gonna stop drinking beer."

Speaker 1:02:07 Mm.

Speaker 1:02:07 It just doesn't have enough alcohol in it to-

Speaker 1:02:09 Oh

Speaker 1:02:09 ... and, and so it'll have-

Speaker 1:02:10 To keep you buzzing.

Speaker 1:02:11 Yeah, yeah. To keep you buzzing you have to do something that's way beyond your level of boredom. And so my oldest son, for example, has ... I mean, my two, I have three kids, 27, 25, and 22. My 25 and 22-year-old, they're in, they're in, in the military.

Speaker 1:02:25 Yeah.

Speaker 1:02:25 So no, I mean, they're not, they're not active on social media. They can't be My oldest son, he figured out that it wasn't gonna be good for his life, so he put a-

Eugene 1:02:33 What, the army?

Speaker 1:02:34 No, uh, Marines.

Eugene 1:02:34 [laughs]

Speaker 1:02:35 Marines.

Eugene 1:02:35 No, I'm saying-

Speaker 1:02:36 I got two Marines

Eugene 1:02:36 ... what was not gonna be good for his life?

Speaker 1:02:38 [laughs] Yeah.

Eugene 1:02:38 Is it media or the military?

Speaker 1:02:39 No. Oh, no, no, no, my oldest son, who isn't in the military-

Eugene 1:02:41 Yeah

Speaker 1:02:41 ... he put grayscale on his phone for social media-

Eugene 1:02:44 Yeah

Speaker 1:02:44 ... a long time ago, and he's never been addicted. He's never been addicted.

Eugene 1:02:47 Never.

Speaker 1:02:48 What, what, what is that doing to the brain? Ex- explain that.

Speaker 1:02:50 So there's a ... Your brain interacts with, visually with social media, and the stimuli with social media in a lot of ways. So, um, anything that you get addicted to is, is involving dopamine.

Speaker 1:02:59 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:02:59 You know, dopamine is the, is the neuromodulator-

Speaker 1:03:02 Yeah

Speaker 1:03:02 ... of liking-

Speaker 1:03:02 Yeah

Speaker 1:03:03 ... learning, wanting, craving, and we have it because we need to learn. We need to be more effective as a species. So when something comes along and you get a little reward from it, it's like, and the next

Speaker 1:03:12 time you think about it, you get a minor reward, which will send you in search of doing that thing again. But if it's just like it was the day before-

Eugene 1:03:19 There's no point

Speaker 1:03:19 ... it's not gonna be as much, and you wanna get a little bit more spritz of dopamine from the locus coeruleus to go in your brain, so you gotta get more of it.

Eugene 1:03:27 Fuel injected-

Speaker 1:03:28 Which is escalation-

Eugene 1:03:28 ... to the engine

Speaker 1:03:29 ... is how this works, right?

Eugene 1:03:30 Yeah.

Speaker 1:03:30 And the stimulus, the more in, visually stimulating something actually is, the more beautiful, the more animated it is, the more that it looks kind of like real life-

Eugene 1:03:39 Yeah

Speaker 1:03:39 ... the more dopamine you get, is what it comes down to. So my son, my oldest son, very wise, he just gets less dopamine from this thing, and since he's getting less dopamine from it, it's less rewarding, and so he does it less.

Eugene 1:03:50 He's drinking too much.

Speaker 1:03:51 Were you always happy?

Speaker 1:03:53 Uh, I'm not happy at all.

Speaker 1:03:55 Oh.

Speaker 1:03:55 That's why I study-

Speaker 1:03:55 Well-

Speaker 1:03:55 ... happiness.

Speaker 1:03:56 Oh, well, there we go, folks.

Speaker 1:03:57 [laughs]

Speaker 1:03:57 Now we're getting to the crux of it.

Speaker 1:03:59 Yeah.

Speaker 1:03:59 Tell us more.

Speaker 1:03:59 No, no, I'm much happier than I used to be because I study it, because-

Speaker 1:04:04 Wait, wait, so what were you-

Speaker 1:04:04 ... knowledge is power

Speaker 1:04:05 ... what were you like before?

Speaker 1:04:06 Well, I mean-

Speaker 1:04:07 Like, wh- where do we meet you now in life, and where were you before?

Speaker 1:04:10 So I, I left a ... I did a lot of different things in my career.

Speaker 1:04:14 Yeah.

Speaker 1:04:14 I was a professional f- classical musician. I was a academic. I, I ran a company for a long time. I was a CEO for a long time. And I left and came back to academia because I wasn't happy, and I realized I needed to go back to my roots as a behavioral scientist because I needed to sort some stuff out.

Speaker 1:04:28 What we, what were you ... When ... Help me understand what made you realize you weren't happy. What were you not happy about?

Speaker 1:04:35 Um, so-

Speaker 1:04:36 How did you know you were unhappy? What were you experiencing?

Speaker 1:04:39 Um, from day to day, my life felt gray, and I didn't feel like I was making progress toward any metaphysical goals. I felt like my relationships were suffering. I had a lot of sort of anhedonia, which is another way of saying that I didn't really feel very much pleasure.

Speaker 1:04:54 Mm.

Speaker 1:04:54 And that nothing, nothing delighted me. You know? Nothing delighted me. And my wife, who's been with me for decades-

Speaker 1:05:01 Yeah, 34 years you said

Speaker 1:05:02 ... yeah. And she said, uh, "You, y- y- why don't you use your PhD for something useful?"

Speaker 1:05:08 Hilarious.

Speaker 1:05:09 [laughs]

Speaker 1:05:10 That's a good partner.

Speaker 1:05:10 And I said, "Like what?" And she said, "Study yourself. You know, heal thyself."

Speaker 1:05:15 Mm.

Speaker 1:05:15 And, and so, and so I actually, I went on a, I'm on a pilgrimage. I, I retired. I mean, I just stepped away. I just quit my job, 55.

Speaker 1:05:22 How old were you at the time?

Speaker 1:05:22 55.

Speaker 1:05:23 55. Okay.

Speaker 1:05:23 And I, I'd been running this think tank, this big

Speaker 1:05:26 nonprofit think tank in Washington-

Speaker 1:05:27 Yeah

Speaker 1:05:27 ... DC for a- almost 11 years. Great job. Great job. But I was ... And it had nothing to do with the job, but I was just empty, man. I was spent. Part of it was that I was ... You know, I didn't sleep very well, and I was, I was working all the time, and I worked 80 hours a week. I missed a lot of my kids' childhood, and I was unhappy. And so I did a pilgrimage, which I recommend to everybody, by the way. When you don't know what to do, go for a really long walk.

Eugene 1:05:51 I did that.

Speaker 1:05:52 Did you? Which one?

Eugene 1:05:52 Well, yeah.

Speaker 1:05:53 Which one? You walked for a year?

Speaker 1:05:55 No, no, no, no.

Eugene 1:05:55 No, no, I went-

Speaker 1:05:56 He just, he went away

Eugene 1:05:56 ... I went away.

Speaker 1:05:56 He just disappeared from where we all knew him.

Eugene 1:05:58 Yeah, stopped social media, stopped work.

Speaker 1:06:00 Went and lived by the beach.

Eugene 1:06:02 Just-

Speaker 1:06:02 Was just gone from everyone's lives

Speaker 1:06:04 I recommend-

Eugene 1:06:05 Best decision I've ever made.

Speaker 1:06:06 Yeah. So I, I walked the Camino de Santiago, which is across northern Spain.

Speaker 1:06:10 Oh, you did, like, the actual pilgrimage, like walk, walk pilgrimage?

Speaker 1:06:12 Yeah, it's what Catholics have been doing for 1,100 years.

Speaker 1:06:15 How long is this walk?

Speaker 1:06:17 It depends on how long you do. I wanted to do the whole 33 days, which is 800K.

Speaker 1:06:21 Yeah.

Speaker 1:06:21 And my wife's like, "No." So we did what she was able, w- was willing to put up with, which was the last 160 kilometers.

Speaker 1:06:27 Oh, that's a lot to put up with.

Speaker 1:06:29 A lot of blisters.

Speaker 1:06:30 [laughs]

Speaker 1:06:30 You know? And you walk yourself into a vulnerable state. You walk yourself into weakness. You gotta be weak if you're gonna find the truth. The, I mean, that's why St. Paul said, "When I'm weak, then I'm strong." You can't connect with anybody. We talked, we started this whole conversation talking about embarrassment, shame, suffering.

Speaker 1:06:48 Vulnerability. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:06:49 Only then ... I mean, it's like, here, here's the thing. You guys told these stories, and this is when the audience is like, "I'm like Eugene and Trevor."

Speaker 1:06:57 Mm.

Speaker 1:06:58 Because that's how people actually connect with you, and that's how you connect with yourself, is by beating yourself down. Then when the aperture is open to actually find the truth.

Speaker 1:07:06 Mm.

Speaker 1:07:07 And, uh, and so I had a complete ... By the end of the, by the end of the walk, I had a completely new life mission, which was I was gonna spend the rest of my life lifting people up and bringing them together in bonds of happiness and love using science and ideas.

Eugene 1:07:18 Do you have a memory of what your thoughts were in the first few miles versus the last few miles?

Speaker 1:07:23 The first few miles were, uh, uh, you know, uh, uh, my feet hurt, um, this is boring, it's too hot, what am I doing, maybe this was a mistake. [laughs] And only when I walked myself into a kind of

Speaker 1:07:39 a submission to it, when I beat myself into a kind of a submission, which is what a pilgrimage is all about. And life is a pilgrimage. It's also a metaphor. You know, you enter into Santiago de Compostela, which is this city in northern Spain, where you end up at a cathedral. There's this medieval cathedral where, where St. James, the brother of St. John, is, where his remains are.

Speaker 1:07:58 Mm.

Speaker 1:07:58 And, uh, and, and that's where you're supposed to get this sort of sacred knowledge. But that's a metaphor for heaven. C- 'cause that's what life is supposed to be, for many, for anybody in, in Abrahamic religions, for sure, and, and many of the karmic religions as well, is the whole idea is being reunited with the godhead.

Speaker 1:08:15 Yeah.

Speaker 1:08:15 Being reunited with the divine. That's the onl- see, here's the thing. For a lot of religious people Evidence of the divine is that you crave the divine and can't get it on Earth.

Speaker 1:08:25 Yeah. Hmm.

Speaker 1:08:25 That's evidence of heaven is that you really believe that there's heaven, but you can't get it on Earth, and the harder you try, the further away you get from it.

Speaker 1:08:32 And the day you see it, you won't be able to tell anyone about it.

Speaker 1:08:34 And then [laughs]

Speaker 1:08:35 It'll be just for you.

Speaker 1:08:36 [laughs]

Speaker 1:08:36 'Cause you can't die and go to heaven and come back again and say it was nice.

Speaker 1:08:39 And that's the metaphor of this-

Speaker 1:08:40 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:08:41 ... of this, of this, yeah, I'm, I'm walking to the cathedral. I'm walking to the cathedral. I'm walking to the cathedral. And then when you actually l- people have been saying for 1,000 years that they're, they're blessed with sacred knowledge when they do this.

Speaker 1:08:52 And so what were, what were some of your thoughts towards the end of it now as you-

Speaker 1:08:55 It was becoming clearer. It was becoming clearer. It's like the clouds were lifting a little bit.

Speaker 1:08:59 Mm.

Speaker 1:08:59 And, and, and-

Speaker 1:09:01 Was your wife on the walk with you?

Speaker 1:09:02 Yeah. Yeah. We walked-

Speaker 1:09:03 Did, did her life change? Because i- it doesn't sound like she was on the same, quote-unquote, "journey" that you were. She seems like she was a little bit more clear.

Speaker 1:09:09 She's an adroit. She's an adept. She's a spiritual adept.

Speaker 1:09:11 Okay.

Speaker 1:09:12 So-

Speaker 1:09:12 Amazing. Yeah

Speaker 1:09:13 ... yeah, for sure. For sure. And, and she didn't have the same issues. I mean, my wife, like, so, so the way that you measure happiness with self-evaluated happiness-

Speaker 1:09:21 Yeah

Speaker 1:09:21 ... is called Cantrell Ladder, one to 10 or zero to 10, where zero is the unhappiest person you've ever met, the worst SOB, the person who's just miserable.

Speaker 1:09:29 Yeah.

Speaker 1:09:30 And 10 is this annoyingly happy person that you know.

Speaker 1:09:33 [laughs]

Speaker 1:09:33 Right?

Speaker 1:09:33 Joseph Opie op.

Speaker 1:09:34 [laughs]

Speaker 1:09:35 [laughs] Very happy.

Speaker 1:09:35 And, and, and, and your number is all things considered at this point in your life w- where you've more or le- not right now because you slept poorly last night or you got in a fight-

Speaker 1:09:43 Yeah, yeah, okay

Speaker 1:09:44 ... with your girlfriend, whatever.

Speaker 1:09:45 Yeah.

Speaker 1:09:45 It's more or less in your life what your number is. That's incredibly stable and accurate it turns out. And my wife's a nine, and I was always, like, a three and a half.

Speaker 1:09:53 Wow.

Speaker 1:09:54 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. And I, and I was doing, you know, all my work. I was doing all kinds of cool kind of interesting things and trying to create value and succeeding in my career and the whole thing, and my wife said, "Why did you become a behavioral scientist? Why?" And I said, "Well, I wanna I guess make life better for other people." Start with you, start with yourself because you're not gonna lift other people up unless you actually start to get your mind around this. And so that was the, that was it. I did a pilgrimage and, and then I li- I, I l- I left my old work, and I, I, I ... This is what I do now. I could ... Look, we, we get to talk about this in front of millions of people.

Speaker 1:10:26 Yeah, but why ... I'm, I'm fascinated by how you came to that conclusion. I'll, I'll tell you why. I've met many men who have been CEOs and have run companies and have been in powerful positions, and oftentimes when they hit that brick wall, oftentimes when their world turns gray, they don't turn to something that's more spiritually, spiritually fulfilling. They just search to more.

Speaker 1:10:50 Right.

Speaker 1:10:50 You know, they just look- They turn to self ... they turn to more.

Speaker 1:10:52 Right.

Speaker 1:10:52 Mm.

Speaker 1:10:52 Right.

Speaker 1:10:52 They go maybe I should merge my company.

Speaker 1:10:54 Yeah.

Speaker 1:10:54 Maybe I need to buy a bigger company.

Speaker 1:10:56 Right.

Speaker 1:10:56 Maybe I need to find s- so I, I wanna know what it was that you bumped into, and maybe it was just your wife telling you, but, like, what was it that made you go, "Oh, no, this hedonic treadmill-

Speaker 1:11:06 Yeah

Speaker 1:11:06 ... is not taking me anywhere"?

Speaker 1:11:07 So it, it was a realization that I guess I can explain best with a metaphor, which is that, um, I used to go to Taiwan a lot for work for when I was running this think tank.

Speaker 1:11:17 Is the food as good as they say?

Speaker 1:11:18 Food's great.

Speaker 1:11:19 Okay.

Speaker 1:11:19 Yeah. Food's great. I mean, the, the people are awesome. Every single person, you get a, like, a taxi driver gives you the business card, and it says CEO 'cause everyone is a CEO.

Speaker 1:11:28 I love it.

Speaker 1:11:28 Oh, it's really entrepreneurial. It's phenomenal. But the, every time I would go, politicians and leaders and CEOs would tell me every time I was in Taiwan, "Before you leave, you gotta s- go see the National Palace Museum," which is the world's greatest collection of Chinese art and artifacts in the world. It was spirited across the Taiwan Straits during the revolution, and it, it would take you weeks to see the entire collection.

Speaker 1:11:49 Hmm.

Speaker 1:11:49 You can't see the whole thing, and I never had time. And I know perfectly, I've been in a lot of museums in my life, that if you've only got an hour-

Speaker 1:11:56 Nah

Speaker 1:11:56 ... then you're gonna ...

Speaker 1:11:57 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:11:57 The only thing you're gonna remember is the snack bar.

Speaker 1:11:59 Yeah.

Speaker 1:11:59 The, the gift shop.

Speaker 1:12:00 You just breeze through it.

Speaker 1:12:01 It's like-

Speaker 1:12:01 And the velvet ropes

Speaker 1:12:01 ... exit through the gift shop, right.

Speaker 1:12:03 [laughs]

Speaker 1:12:04 So finally, um, I, I knew this was never gonna happen unless I took matters into my own hands, and I hired a guide. I had two hours, and I hired a guide, and I said, "Here's what I want you to do. I want you to teach me in depth about 10 things in this museum, 10 things. I pro- I promise I'm going someplace with this."

Speaker 1:12:19 No, no, I ... Well, what do you mean? I'm with you.

Speaker 1:12:21 Yeah, 10 things, and I wanna know the history and the providence and the philosophy, and I wanna know about the artist, and this is stuff from 8,000 years ago until the present, and it was phenomenal. So I'm standing in front of this two-ton block of jade that had been carved into a Chinese village, and I said, "Even if I had never left the United States,

Speaker 1:12:40 just looking at this, I would say this looks Chinese."

Speaker 1:12:43 Hmm.

Speaker 1:12:43 Right? Why does this look Chinese? And he said, "That's because of the philosophy of art in China." I said, "Ooh, tell me more." And he said, he said, l- he answered my question with a question. It was very Eastern. He said, "When you as a Westerner think of a work of art yet to be started, what image pops into your head?" And I said-

Speaker 1:13:02 Painting

Speaker 1:13:02 ... "An empty canvas."

Speaker 1:13:03 Yeah.

Speaker 1:13:03 Right?

Speaker 1:13:04 Yeah, painting.

Speaker 1:13:05 He said, "That's because you think of things as starting from nothing and through your own initiative coming into existence." He said, "Okay." He said, "I think about a work of art not being started as an uncut boulder of jade where the, the, the sculpture is inside it, and I have to take everything away until I find it." And he said, "And now here's the important part." He said, "That's also the difference in philosophy between East and West about life, about success." He says, "You Westerners, you think that if you're gonna have enough, add more, add more, add more, add more, add more, then it's gonna be perfect. But by the time you're 45 years old, if you're remotely successful, more brush strokes means a denser, darker canvas, and you're not, it's not getting better. It's

Speaker 1:13:46 getting uglier."

Speaker 1:13:46 Mm.

Speaker 1:13:47 But you think more, more paint, more paint. You're sloshing paint on. You're getting a boat at 75 or whatever, and you're not getting happier. He said, "We understand that the job on your last day is to chip away the last piece of jade when it's perfect, and that means that we chip away, we take away, we're subtracting."

Speaker 1:14:09 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:14:09 He said, "That's the difference." And I thought, "Ah, that's what I was thinking about on that camino. That's what I was thinking about-

Speaker 1:14:14 Hmm

Speaker 1:14:14 ... that camino. What do I need to chip away? I've been adding brush strokes and adding brush strokes, and my canvas is not getting more beautiful. I need a different metaphor."

Speaker 1:14:23 It's about sharing, yeah. It's about sharing and giving and downloading.

Speaker 1:14:24 So what do I need to do? I need-

Eugene 1:14:26 Chip away

Speaker 1:14:28 So I started chipping away. Started chipping away

Eugene 1:14:31 It's about giving and not taking-

Speaker 1:14:32 Yeah

Eugene 1:14:33 ... and about sharing

Speaker 1:14:33 It's, it is, you know, thinking. And, and now I don't have a, a bucket list on my birthday. I have a reverse bucket list on my birthday. Like, what is am I gonna stop doing this year? What are the relationships that don't serve me? What are the possessions that are tying me down?

Eugene 1:14:43 I love that. You're getting, you're taking things out of the bucket-

Speaker 1:14:45 Totally

Eugene 1:14:45 ... throwing them away

Speaker 1:14:46 Totally. It's a reverse bucket list. Like, you know, my last birthday, you know, actually my, my, on my 60th birthday, which is in 2024, right? It was in the middle of an election year. And I'm like, "Yeah, what do I need to chip away?" And you know what it was? It was my political opinions. I needed more political opinions 'cause, I needed fewer political opinions 'cause I need more friends, [laughs] right? And I was adjudicating friendships on the basis of my political opinions.

Eugene 1:15:10 A lot of people are

Speaker 1:15:11 And I'm like, like, "No, no." And so I wrote down my strongest eight political opinions and I crossed them out, not because I think they're wrong. They might be wrong. I, I, for sure I believe things that are wrong, but I'm not gonna know which until I'm hanging out with people who disagree with me as friends.

Eugene 1:15:27 Mm.

Speaker 1:15:27 It changed my life.

Eugene 1:15:28 Yeah, that's, that's something we spoke to, uh, Robert Putnam about on the show. Still one of my favorite human beings.

Speaker 1:15:33 My colleague at the Kennedy School.

Eugene 1:15:34 No, really?

Speaker 1:15:35 Yeah, for sure.

Eugene 1:15:35 Oh, man.

Speaker 1:15:36 Yeah.

Eugene 1:15:36 Bob Putnam is just, like-

Speaker 1:15:37 He's wonderful

Eugene 1:15:37 ... he's one of my favorite human beings-

Speaker 1:15:39 Yeah

Eugene 1:15:39 ... because of how he synthesized what's lacking in humanity today. And it's that we think that good politics creates good relationships in society, and he was like, "No, the good relationships in society is what creates good politics." And so we live in a world now where we go, "We don't agree, so we don't spend time."

Speaker 1:15:58 Right

Eugene 1:15:58 "And if we get, if I get my politics good enough, and I get my worldview good enough, we will all come together."

Speaker 1:16:03 Right

Eugene 1:16:03 And it's like, no, no, no. If

Eugene 1:16:04 we all find ways to come together, not around the politics, the politics starts to build itself-

Speaker 1:16:09 Right

Eugene 1:16:09 ... in the most meaningful, beautiful ways.

Speaker 1:16:10 Right.

Eugene 1:16:10 Which is, which is counter to how people think, and it's, it's beautiful that you said it that way.

Speaker 1:16:14 Yeah. If relationships are downstream from politics, you're gonna be miserable.

Eugene 1:16:17 Yeah.

Speaker 1:16:18 If, uh, if politics is downstream from relationships ... And it's funny because I've actually seen and participated in these studies where when you, when you bring people who are really diametrically opposed politically-

Eugene 1:16:28 Mm

Speaker 1:16:29 ... together, like Bernie Sanders voters and Donald Trump voters, which actually they have kind of a lot in common.

Eugene 1:16:35 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:16:35 But anyway, they're, you ... And you, and you say, "Okay, you're gonna talk about politics." It's like daggers drawn, right? And yelling. But if you tell them, "You're gonna talk about politics, but first you gotta talk to each other about your kids."

Eugene 1:16:45 Hm.

Speaker 1:16:46 "You gotta tell each other about your kids." And they're laughing, and they're sharing stories about the people that they love the most. And if they have, both have teenagers, it's like you have a common enemy.

Eugene 1:16:55 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:16:56 And it's just, um ... And, and they, and then they talk about politics and it's like they, they don't hate each other. Why? Because there's no way to get to hate if you start with love. And that's the point. That's Bob Putnam's point.

Eugene 1:17:07 I think we've placed such a ... I think from the conversation that we're having now and realizing what you're saying, we've placed such little value on community and the people that we have around us, right?

Speaker 1:17:16 Yeah.

Eugene 1:17:16 And we, we don't have a giving spirit when it comes to opinions and what the likes of other people are. For example, I hate pickleball, but there's these two friends of mine that I can't shake off-

Speaker 1:17:25 Yeah

Eugene 1:17:25 ... that love pickleball.

Speaker 1:17:27 Yeah.

Eugene 1:17:27 But I've realized-

Speaker 1:17:28 Relationship ender

Eugene 1:17:29 Yes. But I've-

Speaker 1:17:29 Is that you? Are you the pickleball guy?

Eugene 1:17:31 [laughs]

Speaker 1:17:32 [laughs]

Eugene 1:17:32 I wasn't gonna name names and out people.

Speaker 1:17:34 [laughs] One of them is at this table.

Eugene 1:17:36 What? [laughs]

Speaker 1:17:36 And it's not, and it's not me. [laughs]

Eugene 1:17:43 [laughs]

Speaker 1:17:43 A process of elimination. [laughs]

Eugene 1:17:47 But I realized that the first time I watched them playing pickleball, I was like, "Oh, this is boring. This sucks." The second time I went, I was like, "They look so happy doing this." And the third time, I saw them growing within the game that they were playing-

Speaker 1:17:59 Yeah

Eugene 1:17:59 ... from the first time that I'd seen them, which is three games ago, you know?

Speaker 1:18:03 Mm-hmm.

Eugene 1:18:03 And I thought to myself, if I'm able to take myself away from what I think is entertaining and watch others who I care about being entertained, that makes me happy.

Speaker 1:18:11 Yeah.

Eugene 1:18:12 It was almost like being there, and I started enjoying the snacks there. I enjoyed the little walkabouts there.

Speaker 1:18:17 Right.

Eugene 1:18:17 I enjoyed the people that worked there-

Speaker 1:18:18 Right

Eugene 1:18:18 ... and overhearing conversations. Then I realized it wasn't just about seeing them happy. It was once I realized that they were happy-

Speaker 1:18:25 Yeah

Eugene 1:18:25 ... I could go out and find my own happiness.

Speaker 1:18:27 Yeah, that's classic.

Eugene 1:18:27 And I end up with happy friends in the car.

Speaker 1:18:29 Yeah. What you did was you stopped doing this, and you started doing this. So, so there's the, the ... You're, you're two people.

Eugene 1:18:37 Yeah.

Speaker 1:18:37 Eugene is two people.

Eugene 1:18:37 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:18:38 There's me self

Speaker 1:18:40 Eugene-

Eugene 1:18:40 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:18:41 ... looking at yourself, and then there's I self.

Eugene 1:18:42 And then there's our father. Oh.

Speaker 1:18:43 There's [laughs] there's suspenders.

Eugene 1:18:45 Too soon.

Speaker 1:18:45 So there's-

Eugene 1:18:46 [laughs]

Speaker 1:18:47 [laughs]

Eugene 1:18:47 I didn't expect that from you.

Speaker 1:18:48 Oh, I'm sorry.

Eugene 1:18:49 Him.

Speaker 1:18:49 That was a low blow. Low blow.

Eugene 1:18:51 Tittle feet, yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 1:18:55 [laughs] And there's I self Eugene, which is looking out, looking outward. And, and it's funny because, you know, the, the most popular class on most college campuses, you know what it is?

Eugene 1:19:03 Hmm?

Speaker 1:19:04 Astronomy 101.

Eugene 1:19:05 Why?

Speaker 1:19:06 Uh, that's exactly. Why? Finally, I ask a student, "Why do you, are you ..." 'Cause they're, like, English majors and communications majors. They're not astronomers. They're not physicists. And I say, "Why do you love this so much?" And this girl says, "Well, you know, I don't know. But on Thursday morning, I got my astronomy class at 9:00. And I go in, I'm super stressed out because, 'cause I had a big argument with my mom, and I think I'm gonna break up with my boyfriend because I got a B, which at Harvard is, like, the end of the world." And, and, and she says, "And I sit in that class for an hour and a half, and I come out and I'm a speck on a speck on a speck."

Eugene 1:19:37 Hmm.

Speaker 1:19:37 That's the I self. And we can actually-

Eugene 1:19:40 That's the I self

Speaker 1:19:41 ... that's the I self. It's looking outward, looking outward, looking outward. That's the reason that trends-

Eugene 1:19:43 Zooming out and out and out and out

Speaker 1:19:46 Yeah. Standing in awe, watching people who are enjoying themselves-

Eugene 1:19:49 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:19:50 ... serving other people, worshiping God, being in nature, listening to the works of Johann Sebastian Bach. Whatever your thing is, that's the I self.

Eugene 1:19:59 He-

Speaker 1:19:59 Looking in the mirror, notifications on social media, pure torture

Eugene 1:20:02 I had been there three times, to tell you the truth, Arthur. Three times, and I didn't realize that they had ginger ale.

Speaker 1:20:09 [laughs]

Eugene 1:20:09 While I, when I was the happiest yesterday about what they were doing and what we were gonna do afterwards-

Speaker 1:20:14 Right

Eugene 1:20:14 ... which was going to go eat steak at Peter Luger's, which was in my bucket list forever, I discovered in that fridge that they had ginger ale.

Speaker 1:20:21 Do you love

Speaker 1:20:22 ginger ale?

Eugene 1:20:22 Love ginger ale.

Speaker 1:20:23 Do you really?

Eugene 1:20:24 Love it.

Speaker 1:20:24 But you couldn't have seen it before because you were focused on-

Eugene 1:20:26 I didn't see it

Speaker 1:20:26 ... how much you didn't like pickleball

Eugene 1:20:27 Yeah.

Speaker 1:20:27 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Eugene 1:20:28 And yesterday I saw it.

Speaker 1:20:29 Yeah, yeah. And you looked out and saw something beautiful, which is people that you loved doing something that they truly enjoyed- And love is the basis of happiness, and enjoyment is a macronutrient of happiness. And when you witness that, it changed your life. It changed your perspective. It wasn't about pickleball. It could've been anything.

Speaker 1:20:46 So how do we find-

Speaker 1:20:48 [laughs]

Speaker 1:20:48 ... this balance? Because, uh, uh-

Speaker 1:20:50 Pickleball, by the way, was invented in my city where I grew up.

Speaker 1:20:52 You grew up in Washington?

Speaker 1:20:53 I grew up in Seattle, Washington.

Speaker 1:20:54 Yeah. Wow, look at that.

Speaker 1:20:55 Wow. Yeah, I grew up in Seattle, Washington.

Speaker 1:20:56 It wasn't invented-

Speaker 1:20:57 And when I was a kid-

Speaker 1:20:57 It wasn't invented by old people, right?

Speaker 1:20:58 ... which was a little more like '70s and '80s, people were playing pickleball. It was, like, a local thing.

Speaker 1:21:01 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:21:01 Now everybody's playing pickleball.

Speaker 1:21:02 Yeah, now it's fuss as croquet.

Eugene 1:21:03 Was it frowned upon then, or was it always a thing of cool people playing it?

Speaker 1:21:07 It was... I don't know who played it.

Eugene 1:21:09 Was it ever-

Speaker 1:21:09 I mean, I just made it

Eugene 1:21:09 ... it was old, it was old age.

Speaker 1:21:10 It was, like, for when-

Eugene 1:21:10 From what I know, it was old age homes.

Speaker 1:21:11 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eugene 1:21:12 Old age homes invented it as a-

Speaker 1:21:13 Yeah

Eugene 1:21:13 ... as a low-risk sport.

Speaker 1:21:14 Yeah, exactly right. The... actually, where you wouldn't wipe out your knees or something.

Speaker 1:21:17 Yep.

Speaker 1:21:17 I used to go-

Speaker 1:21:18 No one said anything about your wrist. [laughs]

Eugene 1:21:20 [laughs]

Speaker 1:21:20 [laughs]

Eugene 1:21:21 Yeah, it was. No, but-

Speaker 1:21:21 I used to go to the only Starbucks in those days. I used to walk-

Eugene 1:21:24 Wow

Speaker 1:21:24 ... to the only Starbucks.

Speaker 1:21:24 Oh, cause that's the capital of it, right?

Eugene 1:21:26 It is.

Speaker 1:21:26 That was the first Starbucks.

Speaker 1:21:26 Yeah, it was like, I lived, I, I, I grew up on Queen Anne Hill, and I would go over the top of Queen Anne Hill-

Speaker 1:21:30 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Speaker 1:21:30 ... and down to the, the Pike Place Market, which was where the only one-

Speaker 1:21:33 This is back when it was, so this is when it was, like, Boeing Town, basically-

Speaker 1:21:36 To the, uh, one

Speaker 1:21:36 ... is when you were-

Speaker 1:21:37 Yeah

Speaker 1:21:37 ... when you were growing up there.

Speaker 1:21:38 Yeah.

Speaker 1:21:38 This is when Boeing ran the town.

Speaker 1:21:40 Boeing and Weyerhaeuser. Weyerhaeuser and Boeing.

Speaker 1:21:41 I don't know what Weyerhaeuser is.

Speaker 1:21:42 So it's, Weyerhaeuser is, uh, is, uh, logging, logging. It's a-

Speaker 1:21:44 I did not know that.

Eugene 1:21:45 Hmm

Speaker 1:21:45 ... is a extractive industry. And so lo- sort of low, low education-

Speaker 1:21:49 Yeah

Speaker 1:21:50 ... high skill was Weyerhaeuser. High education, high skill was Boeing when I grew up.

Speaker 1:21:54 Wow. Okay.

Speaker 1:21:54 My dad taught at a local college there.

Eugene 1:21:56 So the Boeing-

Speaker 1:21:56 What did your dad teach? He was a mathematician.

Eugene 1:21:57 Lumberjacks were down there.

Speaker 1:21:59 My dad had a PhD in biostat. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:22:01 And your mom taught?

Speaker 1:22:02 My, my mother, uh, was an artist, was a artist of, like, s- like, a c- a minor acclaim in the Pacific Northwest.

Speaker 1:22:09 What a beautiful combination.

Speaker 1:22:10 Yeah.

Speaker 1:22:11 Right? The arts and the sciences.

Eugene 1:22:12 But do you see this theme?

Speaker 1:22:12 Yeah, no, it really is. It-

Speaker 1:22:13 They were wonderful people.

Speaker 1:22:14 And you know, it's-

Speaker 1:22:15 They were wonderful people

Speaker 1:22:15 ... you, you just saying that, uh, this is just my anecdotal, amateur,

Speaker 1:22:20 no, no science-based research, nothing brain.

Speaker 1:22:23 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:22:23 I feel like I have noticed a decrease over the years in people, and maybe this is socioeconomic, may- whatever it is. But I've noticed a decrease, just from my perspective-

Speaker 1:22:34 Uh-huh

Speaker 1:22:34 ... a disclaimer, disclaimer, in the amount of people who are with somebody who's, like, from a completely different discipline to them.

Speaker 1:22:42 Right.

Speaker 1:22:42 Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1:22:42 Right.

Speaker 1:22:42 I feel like a, a previous generation was like, "My dad was a scientist. My mom was an artist." Uh, "My dad was a this. My mom was a that. My dad was a..."

Speaker 1:22:49 Right.

Speaker 1:22:49 And then, like, these days, people are like, "We're accountants. We're lawyers."

Speaker 1:22:52 I know.

Speaker 1:22:52 "We're-"

Speaker 1:22:52 That's called homogamy. Homogamy is a really, is a very, is a, it's a, a phenomenon that's growing in prevalence where people-

Speaker 1:22:58 Oh, so this is happening.

Speaker 1:22:59 Oh, totally, totally, completely.

Speaker 1:23:00 Okay. Okay, great.

Speaker 1:23:00 And, and by the way, it's socioeconomic too-

Speaker 1:23:03 Is it?

Speaker 1:23:03 ... which is a real problem.

Speaker 1:23:04 Yeah, that's what I-

Eugene 1:23:04 It's-

Speaker 1:23:04 ... that's what I feel like.

Speaker 1:23:05 I mean, you're sorting. It's as, as sorted, as sortitive mating, where people are, are meeting. It's like th- they go to college, and they, they meet, they marry people from other fancy colleges that do the same thing that they do.

Speaker 1:23:15 Right. Right.

Speaker 1:23:16 And the, and, you know, that's just-

Speaker 1:23:17 Wow

Speaker 1:23:17 ... I mean, uh, great, fall in love with whoever you want, right? But it's-

Speaker 1:23:20 Yeah, but meet more people that you can fall in love with is what I think.

Speaker 1:23:22 But there's another problem in here. There's another, there's an, like, a neurochemical problem that's-

Speaker 1:23:26 Okay

Speaker 1:23:26 ... here's the, here's the, the wrinkle in this. And this, this is exacerbated, by the way, by dating apps. Dating apps allow you to curate the relationships, curate the people that you meet on the basis of your comp, uh, uh, uh, your compatibility.

Speaker 1:23:39 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:23:39 So you say, "I want somebody who, you know, is, votes like I do-

Speaker 1:23:43 Yeah

Speaker 1:23:43 ... or somebody who likes the same kind of music that I do, and somebody who thinks that, you know, Austin, Texas, is really awesome, and, and somebody who likes to eat sriracha." I don't know, whatever. One of the things.

Speaker 1:23:51 You wanna date yourself.

Speaker 1:23:52 And, and that's not hot. It turns out that-

Speaker 1:23:55 Hmm

Speaker 1:23:55 ... what's most hot is a baseline of compatibility and tons of complementarity. And you don't find it-

Speaker 1:24:02 Complementarity

Speaker 1:24:02 ... you don't find it on, on, on most apps. Some apps are getting much better about this, 'cause they're trying to not maximize time in app. They're trying to maximize time in person-

Speaker 1:24:10 Oh, yes

Speaker 1:24:10 ... which is really important. But there's this whole literature on this. There's these, this, uh, physiology experiments where... Do you, have you ever heard about the T-shirt sniffing co- uh-

Speaker 1:24:18 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1:24:18 Yeah.

Speaker 1:24:18 That's one of my favorite experiments-

Speaker 1:24:19 Yeah, it's great

Speaker 1:24:19 ... of all time.

Speaker 1:24:20 Yeah, yeah. So they get a T-shirt.

Speaker 1:24:21 Oh, what happened to my T-shirt?

Speaker 1:24:23 [laughs]

Speaker 1:24:24 Did you? It is one

Speaker 1:24:25 of my favorite-

Speaker 1:24:25 It's a-

Speaker 1:24:25 ... experiments-

Speaker 1:24:26 It's great

Speaker 1:24:26 ... of all time.

Speaker 1:24:27 So it's, uh, Eugene, so what, so Trevor and I will tell you about the T-shirt sniffing.

Speaker 1:24:29 Yes, yes, please.

Speaker 1:24:30 You don't, you wanna tell them?

Speaker 1:24:30 No, you go. You go.

Eugene 1:24:31 Please.

Speaker 1:24:31 Because you know the, I'm sure you, you won't mess up the details.

Speaker 1:24:33 Well-

Speaker 1:24:33 I, I think I know all of them, but I, you can go e-

Speaker 1:24:35 It's a mid-'90s thing.

Speaker 1:24:36 Okay.

Speaker 1:24:36 So, and what the, the, the, the researchers did was they, they, they used, they have an experiment with undergraduates, 'cause that, they'll do anything for 20 bucks. And, uh, and they had guys who would wear these T-shirts around for 48 hours.

Speaker 1:24:47 But no deodorants and no cologne.

Speaker 1:24:49 No de- nothing. They would do the thing. They play sports or walk around, just go to class, whatever.

Speaker 1:24:51 Yeah.

Speaker 1:24:51 Then they took their T-shirts off, and they put them in shoe boxes and drilled holes in the shoe boxes. And they gave them to random women who didn't know the guys necessarily.

Speaker 1:24:58 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:24:59 Who didn't, there was no identifying marks-

Speaker 1:25:01 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:25:01 ... on the boxes. And they would sniff the T-shirts through the holes. And then they had to rate them on the hotness of the guy. And it turns out that the hotness was inversely correlated to the similarity genetically of the men and the women.

Speaker 1:25:14 No.

Speaker 1:25:14 And the reason is because-

Speaker 1:25:16 Wait, is that what it was?

Speaker 1:25:16 Yeah. So and the more different somebody is from you genetically, the hotter you find their smell. Because the olfactory bulb in the brain picks up what's called the major histocompatibility complex-

Speaker 1:25:26 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:25:26 ... which is a measurement of how much genetic, uh, or, or how much, um, um, how, how resistant you're gonna be to diseases. You want people, somebody really different than you that you have kids with-

Speaker 1:25:37 You're getting the best charms of-

Speaker 1:25:38 ... so that your kids get a better repertoire of defenses.

Speaker 1:25:40 Right. It's pretty notice.

Speaker 1:25:41 And, and that's how you sense it, one of the ways that you sense it. That's why you should never pick your, your, that, that you should, you should never pick your own perfume. Women should never pick their own perfume. 'Cause if women pick their own perfume, they like something, right, that smells like-

Speaker 1:25:58 Something they know

Speaker 1:25:58 ... that smells attractive to them-

Speaker 1:25:59 Yes

Speaker 1:25:59 ... which is, like, their boyfriend, and their boyfriend smells it and says, "That smells like my sister."

Speaker 1:26:05 Not hot. Always let your beloved sh- pick your boy, pick your perfume.

Speaker 1:26:09 Because you, you're trying to smell good for them, not for yourself.

Speaker 1:26:12 Yeah, and but what you're doing is you're trying to smell good for them, so you pick something that smells delicious to you, and something that smells delicious to you, you've already, you've already picked that person on the basis of your olfactory bulb because that person is right for you, that a, a huge amount of attraction comes from smell. Like, I met my wife, and I'm like, "I don't know. It's like, it's like cantaloupe on a August afternoon."

Speaker 1:26:32 Hey.

Eugene 1:26:33 Mm, mm, mm, mm.

Speaker 1:26:34 It's just like I can't get enough of it. I'm in 34 years in, I can't get enough of my wife's smell. Can't get enough of it

Speaker 1:26:41 That's beautiful

Speaker 1:26:41 Because it doesn't smell like me.

Speaker 1:26:42 Yeah.

Speaker 1:26:43 [laughs]

Speaker 1:26:43 It's, it, it is the right ki-

Speaker 1:26:44 Yeah.

Speaker 1:26:45 Is it, is it true, and I, I, correct me if I'm misremembering this in the study, I also remembered that they, um, showed the people pictures of the guys.

Speaker 1:26:53 Yeah.

Speaker 1:26:54 So they give you the box.

Speaker 1:26:55 Oh, yes.

Speaker 1:26:55 You sniff.

Speaker 1:26:56 Yes, yeah, mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:26:57 And then you go rate from one to 10. But then they would also give them a picture-

Speaker 1:27:00 Who do you think you picked?

Speaker 1:27:00 ... of guys-

Speaker 1:27:00 Yeah

Speaker 1:27:00 ... and go rate them from one to 10, and the numbers that they chose were almost exactly like, so the guys they gave a seven was the picture they gave a seven.

Speaker 1:27:08 Yeah.

Speaker 1:27:08 The guys they gave a three was the picture they gave a three.

Speaker 1:27:10 Right.

Speaker 1:27:10 And people were like, "How is this?"

Speaker 1:27:11 Yeah. So Love Is Blind is great as long as there's, like, holes in the wall that you-

Speaker 1:27:15 That you can sniff through

Speaker 1:27:16 ... that you can sniff through. 'Cause you're, it's basically you're gonna, you're gonna get a lot of the same information.

Speaker 1:27:20 So now let, let, going back to sort of what you were saying earlier about us finding this balance. You know, you talk about your wife, you talk about your relationship.

Speaker 1:27:28 Right.

Speaker 1:27:28 But, you know, it applies to kids, families, societies, et cetera. Are we in danger of living, you know, when you talk about East versus West, are we in danger of living in a world where we are so encouraged to pursue individualism that we then end up losing happiness? Like, i- is there an extreme that you can go to? It's like your rights, your freedom of everything, your house, your car, your swimming pool, your, you know what I mean? Like, it, does, does that limit your happiness in a way that we don't really understand?

Speaker 1:28:00 For sure. Absolutely for sure, and this is the balance that we're trying to get. This is, like, the dark side of the Enlightenment in its way.

Speaker 1:28:08 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:28:08 I mean, the Enlightenment's phenomenal. It's great. You know, we, we've gone from might makes right to trying to persuade each other. Rule of law.

Speaker 1:28:15 Yeah.

Speaker 1:28:15 Markets, individuality, democracy, all this good stuff that we count on, but the other truth about this is this individuality, it, it makes us into islands.

Speaker 1:28:26 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:28:27 A- and that's something that we have to, it's, it's, it's something that we have to be aware of and be taking care of in our own lives. The, I have this super ultra ... My, my, my favorite, my favorite philosopher is Ralph Waldo Emerson.

Speaker 1:28:38 Okay.

Speaker 1:28:39 Have you ever read Self-Reliance by Ralph Waldo Emerson?

Speaker 1:28:42 I don't know that I have.

Speaker 1:28:43 It's just, like, the sturdy lad who always does it on his own, who farms it, who minds it, and who always lands on his feet like a cat. That's the stuff that I want. I mean, I bailed out of my hometown when I was a kid, never came back. It's me, man. It's me against the world. That's not the secret to happiness. It just isn't.

Speaker 1:29:02 It's not.

Speaker 1:29:02 And I have to be really, really aware of that all the time. I have to be clear on the

Speaker 1:29:07 fact that my impulse is toward individuation, toward radical individualism. I, I get it. I'm, I'm, I'm an American by birth. You guys are Americans by choice.

Speaker 1:29:17 No, we're not. We're South Africans all the way, baby.

Speaker 1:29:20 Yeah, baby.

Speaker 1:29:20 Ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba.

Speaker 1:29:21 I will notice that we're in New York.

Speaker 1:29:23 Uh.

Speaker 1:29:23 We're in New York. [laughs]

Speaker 1:29:24 [laughs] New York doesn't count.

Speaker 1:29:29 [laughs]

Speaker 1:29:30 Uh.

Speaker 1:29:30 Trevor Noah just said that New York's not, not part of America. Anyway, the, the-

Speaker 1:29:33 Ah, New York said New York's not part of America.

Speaker 1:29:35 [laughs]

Speaker 1:29:35 You can't, that one you can't get me on. New York will protect me. They'll be like, "Yeah, what you gonna do about it, Brooks?"

Speaker 1:29:40 No, no, no.

Speaker 1:29:41 Yeah, no.

Speaker 1:29:42 So, so, but this is important because, like-

Speaker 1:29:44 Let's, let's dig deep into that

Speaker 1:29:44 ... like, a lot of people watching us are, are really, really individualistic, but the point is that you can't, you can't actually find love by becoming more and more isolated.

Speaker 1:29:53 Yeah.

Speaker 1:29:54 And that means that there are so many things that we have a tendency to do that we actually have to self-govern, that we actually have to manage. You have to walk back from the ... I mean, look, there's many tendencies that everybody knows about. I wanna, you know, go get drunk 'cause it's awesome.

Speaker 1:30:07 Yeah.

Speaker 1:30:07 But I'm not gonna do that because it's not the right thing to do.

Speaker 1:30:10 But that's, like, an obvious one.

Speaker 1:30:11 That's sort of obvious.

Speaker 1:30:12 Yeah.

Speaker 1:30:12 Not obvious to everybody.

Speaker 1:30:13 Yeah, sort of obvious, you're right.

Speaker 1:30:13 I mean, that's the pursuit of pleasure is really deleterious-

Speaker 1:30:16 Yes

Speaker 1:30:16 ... as it turns out. People do all kinds of things, and they think if I get, it goes back to what we were talking about. If I get enough money, there's gonna be a number. I'm gonna meet my number. I'm gonna scratch the itch so hard that finally I'm not gonna itch anymore. That's true for money. It's also true for individuality.

Speaker 1:30:32 Mm.

Speaker 1:30:33 We need people. We're social animals, right? And-

Speaker 1:30:36 What, what does it do to our brains when we ... You know, 'cause I, I, I think I've heard you speak about this or I've read something about this, but it's, I, I'm, I'm, I'm intrigued by what it does to our actual brains when we need people-

Speaker 1:30:49 Yeah

Speaker 1:30:49 ... and we actually express that need. Why does that make us happier? I don't understand that.

Speaker 1:30:53 So we're, effectively we're emotionally completed, and there's a lot of, you know, we could, we could talk about this neurobiologically. But it makes sense-

Speaker 1:31:02 Yeah

Speaker 1:31:02 ... that we actually don't feel ourselves when we're all by ourselves.

Speaker 1:31:05 Yeah.

Speaker 1:31:06 That we really are, and, you know, we're, we're, we're, we're made to live in kinship. We're made to live in kin groups, and that makes perfect sense because if you, you truly were an individual, you'd be walking the, a savanna and getting hunted down in minutes.

Speaker 1:31:18 Mm.

Speaker 1:31:19 So you need to actually feel complete when you're around your people. That, that's, and that, that's a, an evolutionary imperative is to be around your people because, you know, the, the members of the species that didn't have that, they're gonna die off [laughs] . They're gonna die off.

Speaker 1:31:33 Hmm.

Speaker 1:31:34 You know, that's just the way it is, and that's one of the reasons that there are very, very, very few people. I've met a hermit. I met a hermit in the Himalayas, and he hadn't lived with anybody for 27 years. He saw people very infrequently. He, he granted me, uh ... And what he does every day, he wakes up 6:00 in the morning, and he, you know, makes himself a little breakfast by himself, and then he reads a bunch of, you know, texts in Tibetan and, and, you know, and then, and he sees nobody. And he, he, you know, he'll say, he'll talk to the monkeys, a lot of monkeys. And, and he says he's blissfully happy, blissfully happy. That's very unusual. That's an aberration. That's not, that's not the norm, as it turns out. Now, some people are more introverted, and some people are more extroverted, but introverts need people too. We need people. We don't feel like ourselves. You don't know who you are unless you actually have somebody who mirrors your back to yourself.

Speaker 1:32:25 Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's deep.

Speaker 1:32:26 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:32:27 [upbeat music] Don't press anything. We've got more What Now? after this. You know, Eugene, one of the things I've always loved about food is you can travel without going anywhere. Some people book flights. I just walk into Whole Foods Market. Whole Foods Market is your go-to destination for a flavor tour inspired by regions across the world. Like, one minute I'm thinking about making dinner. The next thing I know, I'm in Italy because I picked up De Cecco Pasta and Rao's sauce. De Cecco Pasta Then I see siete tortillas. San Pellegrino. Now we're in Mexico with sparkling water confidence.

Eugene 1:33:05 Siete tortillas?

Speaker 1:33:07 And if you don't feel like cooking, well, the prepared foods department at Whole Foods Market makes dinner time so easy. Empanadas, burritos, soups,

Speaker 1:33:17 lunch or dinner, solved. You just follow the yellow signs, and suddenly you're on a flavor tour without leaving your post code.

Eugene 1:33:22 Burritos?

Speaker 1:33:24 E- exactly. Uh, if you want snacks, plantain tostones, uh, Peruvian potato chips, phyllo walking tamales. You're basically touring Latin America through crunch alone.

Eugene 1:33:34 Tamales.

Speaker 1:33:36 And don't forget dessert.

Eugene 1:33:38 Mm.

Speaker 1:33:38 Because every good trip ends with something sweet, like tres leches cake. Expand your horizons without expanding your luggage.

Eugene 1:33:46 Tres leches.

Speaker 1:33:48 If you need a weeknight shortcut, you could also head into aisles for 365 by Whole Foods Market. Rice, beans, chunky salsas, instant taco night.

Eugene 1:33:56 Tacos.

Speaker 1:33:58 Or check the frozen aisle for 365 brand taquitos at low prices. Dinner handled.

Eugene 1:34:04 Taquitos.

Speaker 1:34:05 What are you doing, dude? I'm trying to do an ad.

Eugene 1:34:07 [laughs] I can speak Spanish now.

Speaker 1:34:08 What do you mean you think you can s- you're just saying the words that I said.

Eugene 1:34:11 I said everything in Spanish.

Speaker 1:34:12 I mean, the words are already in Spanish.

Eugene 1:34:14 I commit. Taquitos.

Speaker 1:34:19 Save on regional flavors at Whole Foods Market.

Eugene 1:34:21 Taquitos. [upbeat music]

Speaker 1:34:32 There's something Eugene, uh, will often bring up that I think is important to get into, and it's how we talk about this, how we talk about these ideas whilst also acknowledging the positions that people are in their lives. You know? So I, I would love to know, when, when you're teaching people about happiness, is there a way to break it down according to how people are living their lives? And this is what I mean. You know, sometimes people go, "Hey, money's not everything," but it's often the people who have money who are saying it.

Speaker 1:34:59 Right.

Speaker 1:34:59 And I'm literally borrowing this from you.

Speaker 1:35:01 Right.

Speaker 1:35:01 You know, it's like, oh, but you have the money.

Speaker 1:35:03 Right.

Speaker 1:35:03 It's, it's a lot easier for someone to say it when they have the money.

Speaker 1:35:05 Right.

Speaker 1:35:05 And it's a lot easier-

Speaker 1:35:06 Like, let me try. [laughs]

Speaker 1:35:06 It's a lot easier for somebody to say, like-

Speaker 1:35:07 I'll tell you

Speaker 1:35:08 ... "Hey man, don't let work be your life." And it's like, yeah, but I have to work for my life.

Eugene 1:35:12 Mm.

Speaker 1:35:12 Right.

Speaker 1:35:12 And this, this has to be my life.

Speaker 1:35:13 Right.

Speaker 1:35:14 And so how do, how do you think of happiness in, in those ways? Is there, is there a, you know, is there like a shifting wheel that clicks? Is it, you know, is there a way to think of it differently, or does it just apply to everyone the same regardless of what's happening to them?

Speaker 1:35:27 So everybody needs enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. The, the, the macronutrients, for sure.

Speaker 1:35:31 Mm.

Speaker 1:35:31 But there are habits that everybody actually, that the happiest people are, are dedicated to. [clear throat] And, and those basic habits fall in the categories of faith or life philosophy-

Speaker 1:35:41 Mm-hmm

Eugene 1:35:41 Mm

Speaker 1:35:42 ... friendship, uh, family, and meaningful work. Those are the four big buckets. The happiest people are doing all of them.

Speaker 1:35:49 Sounds like what our grandmothers did, funny enough.

Speaker 1:35:51 Yeah. Yeah, kinda. [laughs]

Speaker 1:35:51 No, they really nailed it.

Speaker 1:35:52 Kinda. And, and-

Speaker 1:35:52 Everything you said there was like, these are grandmothers vibes

Speaker 1:35:54 ... yeah. And what's actually pushing us away from this, by the way, is some, the misuse and overuse of technology. That's one of the reasons that the, the big, the, the big problem, the crisis that we're having in happiness today, for, particularly for people under 35, is that they don't know meaning. The number one predictor of depression and anxiety is saying, "My life feels meaningless."

Speaker 1:36:11 Mm.

Speaker 1:36:11 And the reason for this is because the misuse and overuse of technology have changed the way that people use their brains and pushed them away from the old ways. So the old ways, you know, it's like I, I, I, I guarantee you that, you know, Grandpa Noah never came home to Grandma and said, "Honey, I had a panic attack behind a mule today." [laughs]

Speaker 1:36:34 [laughs] And then Grandma said, "You

Speaker 1:36:35 have a mule?"

Eugene 1:36:35 I was picturing [laughs]

Speaker 1:36:36 [laughs] Right, yeah.

Eugene 1:36:36 I, you know, I'm picturing the same thing. I was just like [laughs]

Speaker 1:36:39 Mule?

Eugene 1:36:40 No, but I was just like, you're not wrong, though.

Speaker 1:36:42 But the reason is because, you know, l- I, I don't wanna go l- live like Grandpa Noah, and neither do you.

Speaker 1:36:48 Yeah.

Eugene 1:36:48 Yeah.

Speaker 1:36:48 I don't wanna live like my grandfather and smoke a pack of Winstons a day. I don't wanna do that. But I do want my brain to work the way it's supposed to work.

Speaker 1:36:55 Oh, solving for the brain.

Speaker 1:36:56 And, and the truth of the matter is that we've hemispherically lateralized our brain. We've moved activity to the left hemisphere of the brain, which is all about what and how and efficiency and grinding and achievement and, and, and reels and apps and tech. In the right side of the brain, when you're bored and when you're in love and when you're suffering and when you see beauty, [laughs] that, that right side of the brain gives you mystery and meaning-

Speaker 1:37:21 Mm

Speaker 1:37:21 ... and all the stuff that you actually can't quite articulate. So that's the, this is the big difference that I actually see. The unhappiest people that I meet today are all living on the left, and the people who are happiest are doing a bunch of old, weird things that are weird now, that would've been ordinary life before, that are helping them to be on the right side of their brains.

Eugene 1:37:42 You know, also what you're explaining helps me rationalize my hate for conversations about AI.

Speaker 1:37:50 Yeah. [laughs]

Eugene 1:37:51 Because when, when I hear people who despise the thought of AI coming more and more into our lives, it makes me understand that they are more and more addicted to this technology

Eugene 1:38:01 that they feel like AI's gonna take. AI won't replace you making breakfast-

Speaker 1:38:04 No

Eugene 1:38:04 ... or taking a walk with-

Speaker 1:38:05 No

Eugene 1:38:05 ... your loved one or with your child or writing a book.

Speaker 1:38:08 No.

Eugene 1:38:08 It has no interest in that. But if you have made technology your con- the cornerstone of your happiness and of your purpose and what keeps you busy and what keeps you entertained, of course you're gonna worry when someone or something comes and threatens that, right?

Speaker 1:38:21 Of course. No, no, for sure. And you know, the way for people to understand this, for AI, can AI make me happy? What will you love, your cat, I know you won't, or a mechanical cat? A- um, and, and, and it's an, it's a question that answers itself. A mechanical cat can be really, really, really amazing, but you're always gonna know it's actually not alive.

Eugene 1:38:41 Yeah.

Speaker 1:38:41 So what does alive mean? I don't know. It's, uh, I can simulate it, I guess. No, no, no. You know what alive means. You know it.

Eugene 1:38:48 Mm.

Speaker 1:38:48 So that's why AI, by the way, w- can bring you greater happiness if you're solving how to and what technical problems, freeing up your time, and going, being with the people you love. But it will lower your happiness if you're using it for right brain functions by making it your therapist and your lover and your friend. I mean, it might fool you for a minute, but it won't fool your brain.

Eugene 1:39:09 You'll-

Speaker 1:39:09 You can't simulate meaning.

Eugene 1:39:10 It can give you high resolution of what Central-

Speaker 1:39:12 Yeah

Eugene 1:39:12 ... Park looks like, or you can be in Central Park.

Speaker 1:39:14 Yeah. And that's a point. There's an important point. You can't ... So w- when I was a relative, much younger man, 25 years ago now, was the most popular movie of the year was The Matrix.

Speaker 1:39:26 Oh, man.

Speaker 1:39:26 Right? That's a great movie.

Speaker 1:39:27 It's still my most popular movie.

Speaker 1:39:28 It's a great movie.

Speaker 1:39:29 Still my most popular movie.

Speaker 1:39:30 It's 26 years ago now.

Speaker 1:39:31 It's been that long?

Speaker 1:39:32 Depending on when we air this, it's gonna be 27 years ago. [laughs]

Speaker 1:39:34 [laughs]

Eugene 1:39:34 [laughs]

Speaker 1:39:34 So it was-

Speaker 1:39:35 26 years ago?

Speaker 1:39:36 It was 1999.

Speaker 1:39:37 Oh, wow. I don't feel like The Matrix is that ... Wow.

Speaker 1:39:40 Sorry, dude. Yeah.

Speaker 1:39:41 [laughs]

Eugene 1:39:41 Damn.

Speaker 1:39:42 Oh, no. I mean-

Eugene 1:39:42 No, I'm not in a bad way. I'm just like-

Speaker 1:39:43 Like, you feel it. It's like, imagine how I feel.

Speaker 1:39:45 [laughs]

Eugene 1:39:45 [laughs]

Speaker 1:39:45 Anyway, so, [laughs] so and, and in The Matrix, the, the plot of the movie obviously is that there's this super intelligent machine life, like fake life in a machine, that has to ... It's, it's an, a super intelligence.

Speaker 1:40:00 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:40:00 And it has to power itself on human endeavor, and it does so by putting people in pods and simulating a real life that's really, really pleasant and distracting and, and kind of n- narcotic.

Speaker 1:40:13 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:40:14 And, and that's like crazy science fiction. We're in The Matrix. We're in The Matrix. I mean, it's like I'll get up, you know, then I check my phone, and then I go to work, which is on a Zoom screen, and, and all my friends are kind of on social media. And then I'm on a date, z- z- z- z- z- z.

Eugene 1:40:27 One or two-

Speaker 1:40:27 And a lot of my accomplishment is gonna come from gaming. It's The Matrix, which is getting you stuck in the left side of your brain.

Eugene 1:40:33 Yeah.

Speaker 1:40:33 And the one thing you'll never get from that is meaning.

Eugene 1:40:36 Isn't it weird that we go, "I'm bored," swipe, "I am hungry. I wanna get from A to B, and I want some company."

Speaker 1:40:43 Yeah.

Eugene 1:40:44 But we're doing all of it is here.

Speaker 1:40:46 And the gr- great irony of this is that your grandfather, he, his day-to-day existence was pretty damn boring. It was, he did a lot of, a lot of stuff was, his job was pretty boring and-

Eugene 1:40:58 He worked in the railway, so he was-

Speaker 1:40:59 Yeah

Eugene 1:41:00 ... pretty bored. Yeah.

Speaker 1:41:00 But he never, at the end of his life, he wouldn't have said, "My life has been very boring."

Eugene 1:41:04 No, he never.

Speaker 1:41:04 'Cause his life wasn't boring. But here's the thing. If you live like modern people do today, not using your

Speaker 1:41:10 brain the way it's supposed to, you're never actually bored moment to moment, but your life is unbelievably boring.

Speaker 1:41:17 I always say it's the, um, elimination of friction that, that we take for granted. Like, as, as you increase convenience-

Eugene 1:41:23 I've implemented that so many times-

Speaker 1:41:24 The cost-

Eugene 1:41:25 ... after I've heard you say it

Speaker 1:41:25 ... remember when we spoke about-

Eugene 1:41:26 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:41:26 Like, the cost of convenience-

Speaker 1:41:28 Yeah

Speaker 1:41:28 ... is one that we haven't fully understood yet in life, and it's, it's actually interesting to see. I, I know I've spoken about this before, but go and look at the tech entrepreneurs who make technology in India-

Speaker 1:41:41 Right

Speaker 1:41:41 ... all over Africa, Nigeria, Kenya, South Africa, you name it. Look at the tech that they make. They make tech that solves a problem that was otherwise unsolvable.

Speaker 1:41:50 Mm.

Speaker 1:41:51 You know what I mean? So they'll make an app that enables farmers to know when to plant their crops so that they have the highest yield, and they don't lose, you know, 40% of their crops or whatever. And then you look at the Western world, the US in particular, most of the apps, they don't solve a problem. They just-

Speaker 1:42:10 You can find a closest pizza at 10:00 PM.

Speaker 1:42:13 Exactly. Do you know what I mean? And, and I think of-

Speaker 1:42:15 Meaningful.

Speaker 1:42:16 No. [laughs]

Speaker 1:42:17 [laughs]

Speaker 1:42:17 And I think of, I think of what you're talking about now. What it's robbed us of is-

Speaker 1:42:21 [laughs]

Speaker 1:42:22 ... the walk to go find the pizza place.

Speaker 1:42:25 Yeah.

Speaker 1:42:25 The conversation.

Speaker 1:42:26 Yeah.

Speaker 1:42:26 Remember asking somebody for directions?

Speaker 1:42:28 Yeah.

Speaker 1:42:28 You know how crazy those moments were? Or asking someone-

Speaker 1:42:31 Yeah

Speaker 1:42:31 ... where, you, you're trying to get somewhere, and that might spark something. And then because you're in a place, then someone else talks to you, and then a thing happens. And where did you bump into each o- ... All of the most wonderful things, or many of the most wonderful things that'll happen to you in your life are inconvenience.

Speaker 1:42:44 Yeah.

Eugene 1:42:45 Yeah.

Speaker 1:42:45 That's, that's why they happen.

Speaker 1:42:47 A pilgrimage is induced inconvenience.

Speaker 1:42:49 Oh, I love that.

Eugene 1:42:50 Mm.

Speaker 1:42:50 Induced inconvenience.

Speaker 1:42:51 Totally. I mean, you're putting a bunch of friction in your life. Like, I'm gonna walk even though I could fly, I could drive, I could take a train. I'm gonna walk hundreds of miles. I'm gonna walk, and it's gonna hurt. I'm gonna do that.

Eugene 1:43:04 It's gonna take time.

Speaker 1:43:05 Why? Because I want to, I wanna get access to the special information that comes to me when I'm not actually arriving.

Speaker 1:43:14 So let me ask you this as somebody who, who's written multiple books about this. I'm always intrigued by the things that scholars keep learning about a subject that you would think they would've otherwise conquered.

Speaker 1:43:27 Right.

Speaker 1:43:27 You know what I mean? Now I wanna know what, what you are newly discovering or what's newly exciting you in the field-

Speaker 1:43:34 Yeah

Speaker 1:43:34 ... of happiness that you haven't previously delved into.

Speaker 1:43:36 Yeah. So my background is behavioral science-

Speaker 1:43:40 Okay

Speaker 1:43:41 ... and behavioral economics, psychology, et cetera. I had to retrain learning a lot of neuroscience because the vanguard is this realization that psychology is biology.

Speaker 1:43:52 Hm.

Speaker 1:43:53 That if you don't understand the brain, you don't understand the mind. And I'm not a radical physicalist. I'm a religious person.

Speaker 1:43:59 Yeah.

Speaker 1:43:59 You know, I mean, like I, I'm a traditionally religious person, so I'm not a radical physicalist where it's, it's all-

Speaker 1:44:03 It's all here and nowhere else.

Speaker 1:44:04 No.

Speaker 1:44:04 No.

Speaker 1:44:05 I don't, I don't actually believe that. But the truth is, I'm not gonna understand what's going on with my emotions unless I understand what's going on with my limbic system.

Speaker 1:44:13 Oh.

Speaker 1:44:14 And that's the vanguard. That's super fun and exciting. It's unbelievable. For my writing, I'm reading

Speaker 1:44:20 10 to 20 neuroscience articles a week, so I've had to really retrain it. And I'm not, I'm not an expert. I don't have a PhD in neuroscience. I mean, I, I talk to neuroscientists, and it's like, "Oh, man. This is so far above me." I, you know, I listen to, like, Huberman. He's truly is a great neuroscientist.

Speaker 1:44:32 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:44:33 And, and I don't hold a candle to that. But the more that I'm learning, the more excited that I actually get, and that's the, that's a, that's a learning pilgrimage that I get to be on for the rest of my life. It's just so exciting.

Speaker 1:44:43 So discovering new parts of-

Eugene 1:44:45 Pumping that limbic now

Speaker 1:44:46 ... how the, how the thing-

Speaker 1:44:47 Oh, man.

Eugene 1:44:47 [laughs]

Speaker 1:44:47 ... one thing connects to the other thing connects to the other thing.

Speaker 1:44:50 What, so, so it's the same thing I could ask you, though. So you've been at the top of your profession. What are you doing to stay fresh and to learn? What is thrilling your heart these days that you're learning?

Speaker 1:45:02 So now I'm trying to be a professional at living.

Speaker 1:45:05 Tell me more

Speaker 1:45:07 Sort of going back to what we spoke about earlier, um, I realized I'm very good at working.

Speaker 1:45:12 Yeah.

Speaker 1:45:12 I've worked my entire life that I've been-

Speaker 1:45:14 Super hard

Speaker 1:45:15 ... that I've been allowed to work.

Speaker 1:45:16 Right. Right.

Speaker 1:45:16 You know? So I've, I've worked my entire life. I'm very good at working. I'm very good at adapting to that work, understanding it-

Speaker 1:45:21 Mm

Speaker 1:45:21 ... and getting to a level of proficiency that allows-

Speaker 1:45:23 Right

Speaker 1:45:23 ... me to earn a living in that work. What I've never been particularly good at is living.

Speaker 1:45:29 Ah.

Speaker 1:45:30 You know? So recently I went to my first wedding ever. At, at the age of 41 years old, I went to a wedding. I accepted-

Speaker 1:45:35 And it wasn't yours, right?

Speaker 1:45:36 No, it wasn't. [laughs]

Speaker 1:45:37 [laughs]

Speaker 1:45:38 I accepted an invitation, I attended-

Speaker 1:45:41 [laughs]

Speaker 1:45:41 ... and for the first time I was like, "Oh, this is what a wedding is."

Speaker 1:45:44 Uh-huh.

Speaker 1:45:45 "Oh, I see. And we sit like this-"

Speaker 1:45:46 Right

Speaker 1:45:47 ... "and then those people... Wow, this is a..." You get what I'm saying?

Speaker 1:45:49 Yes.

Speaker 1:45:50 I've never done that, and I've never done it because I think for the most part it's been w- work. Work comes... M- most people don't know when their weddings are before I know my schedule.

Speaker 1:46:00 Right.

Speaker 1:46:00 So by the time you know your wedding, I'm like, "I'm already working that day."

Speaker 1:46:02 Yeah.

Speaker 1:46:03 You know? And now this one was a combination of me saying, "I will make the space," but I, luckily the person told me-

Speaker 1:46:08 But why, why, why, why the, the preoccupation with work?

Speaker 1:46:11 Yeah. So why the preoccupation with work?

Speaker 1:46:13 Yeah.

Speaker 1:46:13 No. It was, it was-

Speaker 1:46:14 Because you love your work.

Speaker 1:46:15 I think it was a combination of two things. One, um, survivability.

Speaker 1:46:19 Right.

Speaker 1:46:19 So the first one was just, like, earn a living.

Speaker 1:46:21 Right, yeah.

Speaker 1:46:22 There, there was no, like-

Speaker 1:46:23 Yeah, no, I got it

Speaker 1:46:23 ... choice.

Speaker 1:46:23 I know.

Speaker 1:46:23 And I always tell people, people are like, "Why did you become a comedian?" I'm like, "Because-"

Speaker 1:46:27 Yeah

Speaker 1:46:27 ... "it's the only job they weren't interviewing for."

Speaker 1:46:29 Yeah.

Speaker 1:46:29 You know what I mean? I didn't need to come with qualifications. Otherwise I would've done other things.

Speaker 1:46:32 No gates.

Speaker 1:46:33 Yeah, really.

Speaker 1:46:35 Yeah.

Speaker 1:46:35 Um, the other thing was that I enjoyed it and I started-

Speaker 1:46:39 Right

Speaker 1:46:39 ... developing, and I still work on a master's of it.

Speaker 1:46:40 And you have a super high achievement orientation.

Speaker 1:46:43 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:46:43 So I think-

Speaker 1:46:43 So I go like, "This is great. This is great. This is great"

Speaker 1:46:44 ... why? Because you are, your number one macronutrient is satisfaction.

Speaker 1:46:48 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:46:49 Is achievement that you get after struggle. Achievement.

Speaker 1:46:51 Oh, it's the best.

Speaker 1:46:52 Achievement. Satisfaction from achi-

Speaker 1:46:53 It's the best.

Speaker 1:46:54 So, so and you're, like, a virtuoso at satisfaction.

Speaker 1:46:57 So what I love is-

Speaker 1:46:57 Right

Speaker 1:46:57 ... I'm, I'm a big fan of luck theory.

Speaker 1:46:59 Yeah.

Speaker 1:47:00 Right? And when I discovered this, it changed my whole life. So there was a, a French philosopher who wrote a whole book about luck-

Speaker 1:47:06 Yeah

Speaker 1:47:07 ... and the principles of luck. And he said, "We always just talk about luck as if it's this one flat idea. So lucky, unlucky. Terrible good things, not bad for you. Aha, lucky." And he wrote this whole book, and he broke luck down into these four quad- quadrants. And he said, "We need to understand what luck is to understand how we welcome-

Speaker 1:47:25 Right

Speaker 1:47:26 ... or dissuade luck from coming into our lives."

Speaker 1:47:27 Right.

Speaker 1:47:28 So he said-

Speaker 1:47:28 It's not luck. [laughs]

Speaker 1:47:30 Yeah. So he said the first thing is dumb luck, right? It's the luck where something just-

Speaker 1:47:35 Yeah

Speaker 1:47:35 ... it, it is because it is. Where you were born-

Speaker 1:47:36 Yeah

Speaker 1:47:37 ... your grandparent, dumb luck. If they learned Zulu, now you're South African.

Speaker 1:47:40 Yeah.

Speaker 1:47:40 You know what I mean? That's dumb luck.

Speaker 1:47:41 Totally different experience.

Speaker 1:47:42 Exactly.

Speaker 1:47:42 Totally different person.

Speaker 1:47:43 Washington, if there wasn't-

Speaker 1:47:43 Now we're doing this whole show in Zulu.

Speaker 1:47:44 There you go.

Speaker 1:47:45 [laughs]

Speaker 1:47:47 [laughs]

Speaker 1:47:48 [laughs]

Speaker 1:47:48 How do you, how do you flick in Zulu? What do you even say?

Speaker 1:48:06 [laughs]

Speaker 1:48:06 How do you flick? I don't know what flick is in Zulu.

Speaker 1:48:09 I don't, I don't think there's a word for it yet.

Speaker 1:48:11 Yeah. Well, we gotta come with a flick. You gotta flick your... Yeah, but anyway, um-

Speaker 1:48:14 [laughs]

Speaker 1:48:15 [laughs] No, so, so, so there's your, your dumb luck.

Speaker 1:48:18 We almost lost the whole show there.

Speaker 1:48:19 You cannot control it. [laughs]

Speaker 1:48:21 [laughs]

Speaker 1:48:21 Oh, Zulu Nadal.

Speaker 1:48:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:48:23 We're number one. [laughs]

Speaker 1:48:24 [laughs]

Speaker 1:48:24 What? There's a spike. There's a spike in the ratings.

Speaker 1:48:27 [laughs]

Speaker 1:48:27 What's happening? Um, so

Speaker 1:48:30 dumb luck, things that you cannot control.

Speaker 1:48:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:48:32 This you cannot blame anyone, you cannot thank, it's just happening.

Speaker 1:48:35 Yes.

Speaker 1:48:35 That's you. Country you're born in, people you're born to, lang- et cetera.

Speaker 1:48:38 Family, yeah.

Speaker 1:48:39 Then the next one is luck of motion.

Speaker 1:48:41 Right.

Speaker 1:48:41 Luck of motion is literally what it sounds like. You, once you start moving, luck can happen to you. You can't stub your toe without getting out of bed, but you also can't bump into somebody in the street without walking into the street.

Speaker 1:48:53 Yeah.

Speaker 1:48:53 Do you get what I'm saying?

Speaker 1:48:54 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:48:54 And that's luck. Oh, so luck, you know who I bumped into? Oh, my God, luck of... That's luck of motion.

Speaker 1:48:58 Right.

Speaker 1:48:58 Right? And then the third one is luck of awareness. This one is an interesting one to me, 'cause it's the ability to see and notice the ginger ale-

Speaker 1:49:07 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:49:07 ... at the pickleball place.

Speaker 1:49:08 Yeah.

Speaker 1:49:08 I'm so lucky there's ginger ale here. No, you were aware that there was ginger ale, and so you became lucky.

Speaker 1:49:13 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:49:13 So there are two people walking-

Speaker 1:49:15 Right

Speaker 1:49:15 ... down the street. There's $100 on the ground. The one person is aware that there's $100, the other one isn't. One person says, "I'm so lucky I found $100." The other person says, "Oh, I'm unlucky. I've never picked up, I've never found money."

Speaker 1:49:26 Mm.

Speaker 1:49:27 You weren't aware that there was money.

Speaker 1:49:28 You weren't paying attention.

Speaker 1:49:28 Exactly.

Speaker 1:49:29 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:49:29 And that applies to everything. It applies to love.

Speaker 1:49:31 Right.

Speaker 1:49:32 It applies to opportunities in work. It's someone who sees a sign that says, "Help wanted."

Speaker 1:49:36 Right.

Speaker 1:49:36 They're just aware.

Speaker 1:49:37 Yeah.

Speaker 1:49:37 They see a place opening and they go, "Hey, are you guys gonna look for work? Do you need people here? Because you haven't even advertised, but I've noticed that you're starting a new store." You know?

Speaker 1:49:47 Yeah.

Speaker 1:49:47 That's awareness. And then the last one, which I find most interesting, is the luck of uniqueness, specialization. When you choose to delve into something and really, really, really get into it, it doesn't matter what it is, a sport, a hobby, a, a profession, uh, it doesn't matter what it is, it presents unique opportunities to you-

Speaker 1:50:06 That are only available to you

Speaker 1:50:07 ... that will make you feel lucky.

Speaker 1:50:08 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:50:09 But they aren't necessarily just lucky. So by you being a professor who specializes in happiness, you are more likely-

Speaker 1:50:16 Mm

Speaker 1:50:16 ... to be lucky-

Speaker 1:50:17 Mm

Speaker 1:50:17 ... to bump into Oprah Winfrey.

Speaker 1:50:19 Right.

Speaker 1:50:19 I'm so lucky Oprah liked me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's a lot harder to meet-

Speaker 1:50:22 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:50:22 ... Oprah-

Speaker 1:50:23 Mm

Speaker 1:50:23 ... when you're not in this world.

Speaker 1:50:26 Yeah.

Speaker 1:50:26 Do you get what I'm saying?

Speaker 1:50:26 No, for sure. For sure.

Speaker 1:50:27 It's a lot easier to meet LeBron James if you specialize in basketball. It's just a lot easier.

Speaker 1:50:31 Mm.

Speaker 1:50:31 I'm not saying it'll happen.

Speaker 1:50:32 Yeah.

Speaker 1:50:32 But it's easier.

Speaker 1:50:33 So this is-

Speaker 1:50:34 And so-

Speaker 1:50:34 This stuff is great. And there's a, the, the best psychologist on this, a British guy named Richard Wiseman.

Speaker 1:50:39 Richard, oh, I mean, if your name's Wiseman, I mean, you've got to-

Speaker 1:50:41 I know

Speaker 1:50:41 ... now you, you can't, what are you gonna do?

Speaker 1:50:43 He's wise. He can't, he can't be stupid or anything. [laughs]

Speaker 1:50:44 Yeah. That's like, oh-

Speaker 1:50:45 It's like-

Speaker 1:50:45 ... old Wisey over here. [laughs]

Speaker 1:50:47 It's like, and then, and then his, his, his cousin Henry Idiot.

Speaker 1:50:49 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 1:50:50 You know?

Speaker 1:50:50 It's just like, oh, man.

Speaker 1:50:51 Didn't do as well.

Speaker 1:50:51 [laughs] That's a good one.

Speaker 1:50:53 [laughs] So, so and, and the fact that you think about this an awful lot-

Speaker 1:50:57 So I think about it-

Speaker 1:50:57 ... is because you've got this heavy achievement orientation.

Speaker 1:51:00 Yes, but what to, to, to, to wrap it up in terms of the life thing, what I realized was, I was like, oh, Trevor, you think to yourself, you're like, "Oh, man, I, oh, I, I wish, you know, I had more wedding stories. I wish I..."

Speaker 1:51:12 Right.

Speaker 1:51:12 And I was like, oh, instead of wishing for them-

Speaker 1:51:14 Mm

Speaker 1:51:15 ... why not try and work on the luck that makes these things happen?

Speaker 1:51:18 Right.

Speaker 1:51:19 So Create more space in your diary-

Speaker 1:51:22 Right.

Eugene 1:51:22 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:51:22 And this is, this is your project now.

Speaker 1:51:24 Yeah, this is my, this is-

Speaker 1:51:25 This is your project

Speaker 1:51:25 ... he knows. This is my actual project.

Speaker 1:51:27 Yeah.

Speaker 1:51:27 We- And he's been a, a great friend in this. I'll go, "Eugene, what are you doing? Nothing? Great. Pick something for us to do."

Speaker 1:51:34 Yeah.

Speaker 1:51:34 And then we just drive, and we go have lunch, or we don't, or we walk, or we don't, or we ... But we-

Speaker 1:51:41 Right

Speaker 1:51:41 ... But I, I, I now create the space that I didn't-

Eugene 1:51:45 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:51:46 ... hoping that maybe something can come into that space that couldn't otherwise if I hadn't filled it with work.

Speaker 1:51:51 Mm.

Speaker 1:51:51 Does that make sense?

Speaker 1:51:51 Yeah, it does. So-

Speaker 1:51:52 Yeah

Speaker 1:51:52 ... so this is really important. So, um, remember, there's three parts to happiness.

Speaker 1:51:56 Yeah.

Speaker 1:51:57 And so based on this, and, you know, we've met before-

Speaker 1:52:01 Yeah

Speaker 1:52:01 ... but we didn't, like, grow up together.

Speaker 1:52:02 No.

Speaker 1:52:03 And we haven't played pickleball together.

Speaker 1:52:04 No, we have not.

Speaker 1:52:05 Mm. [laughs]

Speaker 1:52:06 [laughs]

Speaker 1:52:07 I'm not, I'm not trying to hurt you or anything.

Eugene 1:52:09 No, no.

Speaker 1:52:09 [laughs]

Speaker 1:52:10 You know, it's like ... [laughs] But, um, I would say of the three, of the three macronutrients of happiness, you're a 10 on satisfaction.

Speaker 1:52:19 Probably, yes.

Speaker 1:52:21 You're probably a six on meaning. You're a-

Speaker 1:52:25 Oh, you think it's that low?

Speaker 1:52:26 No, it's not low.

Speaker 1:52:27 You think six is high?

Speaker 1:52:28 I think so. Six is pretty moderate.

Speaker 1:52:29 Okay.

Speaker 1:52:29 It's pretty, it's pretty normal.

Speaker 1:52:30 Okay. All right.

Speaker 1:52:31 And I think you're a three on enjoyment. I think that you never learned how to enjoy your life. And so if I were working with you on this, that ... See, then you say, "I wanna be better at living. I wanna be better at living. The problem is that when I'm doing these things to be better at living, I'm not putting points on the board. I'm not making progress in my life." Eh, that's what all strivers think.

Speaker 1:52:50 Yeah.

Speaker 1:52:50 Right? And so the way to deal with this is to understand how enjoyment

Speaker 1:52:55 works. So I've ... You and I were working together, and we were talking about this every week.

Speaker 1:52:58 Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Speaker 1:52:58 Right? That's okay. We gotta have a p- an enjoyment plan. We're gonna have a strategic plan for enjoyment, because we need to reframe it, kinda like you do with getting good at this whole thing.

Speaker 1:53:07 It's so funny you say this, 'cause I never ... You remember, I never learned it. I was talking to my mom about this the other day, and I, I said to her, 'cause my mom is, like, the ultimate worker.

Speaker 1:53:14 Yeah.

Speaker 1:53:14 And I said, "Mom, have you noticed that you work yourself to death, then you rest, but you don't rest."

Speaker 1:53:19 Right.

Speaker 1:53:19 "You're just exhausted."

Speaker 1:53:20 Right.

Speaker 1:53:21 And she was like, "Yeah, how else could I be?" And I was like, "Well, I think you and I both could practice-"

Speaker 1:53:25 A little bit more

Speaker 1:53:25 ... enjoying-

Speaker 1:53:26 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:53:27 ... before we're exhausted. And she was like, "You do it and let me know how it goes, and, if it's good, I'll join you."

Speaker 1:53:32 Yeah.

Speaker 1:53:32 And so I'm on that journey.

Speaker 1:53:33 Yeah.

Speaker 1:53:33 And she's not against it. She's just like, "Hey, kid." She's like, "Look, man, the life I lived, I didn't have sort of the luxuries you had, so work hard and I'll ... I'm, I'm open to it, but, but so carry on."

Speaker 1:53:43 Yeah, so, so-

Speaker 1:53:44 So you work on learning to enjoy.

Speaker 1:53:45 Yeah, so let me make a suggestion.

Speaker 1:53:46 Yeah.

Speaker 1:53:47 All right? There's a great book, um, that was written by a German philosopher in the middle of the 20th century named Josef Pieper.

Speaker 1:53:54 Uh-huh.

Speaker 1:53:54 And Pieper, he wrote this book called Leisure: The Basis of Culture.

Speaker 1:53:58 Mm.

Speaker 1:53:58 And you're like, "Okay, so he's gonna write

Speaker 1:54:00 a whole book about chilling on the beach."

Speaker 1:54:01 No.

Speaker 1:54:01 No, no, no. Chilling on the beach isn't leisure. That's, that's, that's acedia, which means kind of a laziness. And, and there's nothing wrong with chilling on the beach from time to time, but that's not actual leisure. Leisure, you have to be excellent at. You have to be excellent at leisure.

Speaker 1:54:15 I'm already in.

Speaker 1:54:16 Leisure is something you're truly good at.

Speaker 1:54:18 This guy here might be an expert. But carry on.

Speaker 1:54:21 Okay. That, that, that they don't pay you for-

Speaker 1:54:24 This guy here

Speaker 1:54:24 ... but you're just really, really good at. And so he talks about it in categories of spiritual depth, going deeper and deeper and deeper in your spiritual life. It's developing your relationships with your closest friends, developing relationships at a real level, where you go out to dinner, it's like, "Go deeper or go home. Go deeper or go home." And it's like, "Here's the first question. Trevor, what are you most afraid of? That's the first question, because we're gonna, we're gonna learn about each other here." That's leisure. That's actual leisure.

Speaker 1:54:52 Hm.

Speaker 1:54:53 It's about getting an aesthetic sense. It's about going deep into the works of-

Speaker 1:54:57 So it's not, "How's things been?"

Speaker 1:54:59 No, no, no. That's nonsense. Who cares? It's like, I don't care about the weather. I don't care how the Jets did on Sunday. No, no, no, no. I wanna know what you're afraid of. I wanna know you.

Speaker 1:55:11 Damn.

Speaker 1:55:11 That's leisure. And that's what you ... That, that will create enormous ... Strivers can enjoy their lives

Speaker 1:55:18 only when they understand the truth about leisure. And when they're like, if you don't, you're gonna be like, "Yeah, so, so I, I guess on my vacation I gotta go someplace and sit on a beach, bored." No. You don't wanna do that. I know you don't wanna do that. That sounds horrible to you, right?

Speaker 1:55:34 Yeah, and it's, it's always been horrible.

Speaker 1:55:35 It's like-

Speaker 1:55:35 The sound of that has always been like, "Mm."

Speaker 1:55:37 Uh-huh.

Eugene 1:55:37 The idea of it all?

Speaker 1:55:38 And it's like, and, and-

Speaker 1:55:39 [laughs]

Speaker 1:55:40 ... the problem is that a lot of strivers-

Speaker 1:55:42 Yeah

Speaker 1:55:42 ... who have families, they're, like, total killjoys, because their kid ... You know, their, their, you know, their spouse is like, "Let's go to the beach. Let's take the kids to the beach." And you're like, "I don't ... Sweetheart, I can't tell you why, but I hate it."

Speaker 1:55:54 Mm.

Speaker 1:55:54 "I can't tell you why, but I hate it." And that's because you in your heart know that real leisure is something that, that has incredible value.

Speaker 1:56:02 Okay.

Speaker 1:56:02 That creates value for you and value for the universe, but it doesn't pay you. So what?

Speaker 1:56:08 Yeah, that's not the point.

Speaker 1:56:09 Yeah.

Speaker 1:56:09 But the, the enjoyment. Now do Eugene. Do Eugene. What's, what would you say Eugene's numbers are?

Speaker 1:56:13 So higher on enjoyment. Higher on enjoyment. Um, I don't know about the satisfaction numbers 'cause we actually haven't ... You're, you're ... I don't know as much about your career.

Eugene 1:56:23 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:56:24 I don't know about it.

Eugene 1:56:25 You can ask me.

Speaker 1:56:25 Yeah. So tell me.

Eugene 1:56:26 So I started off doing comedy, but comedy introduced me to television, to doing a bit of radio, and now it's led me to this path. And we've had guests here that ask me, "So do you miss comedy?" I'm like, "I can't miss comedy, 'cause I'm happy here."

Speaker 1:56:38 Ah.

Eugene 1:56:39 Like, I'm enjoying this. This, this was part of my visualization. Six, seven years ago I wrote this all down in a book.

Speaker 1:56:44 Right.

Eugene 1:56:44 I said, "I wanna do something, and I wanna do it here, and I wanna earn in this currency." Wrote it all down. So when I'm here now, when someone asks me, "Don't you miss the other thing?" I'm like, "It doesn't, it doesn't come into my world." You know, when other comics ask me, "Now that you're in New York, are you gonna go do a club?" I'm like, "I don't- I'm not even thinking about it."

Speaker 1:57:01 Mm.

Eugene 1:57:02 I'm thinking about eating pig's feet and hanging out with my friends. You know? And-

Speaker 1:57:05 He's high on enjoyment

Eugene 1:57:06 ... yeah. [laughs] So I'm like, "No, no, no."

Speaker 1:57:07 Very high on enjoyment.

Eugene 1:57:08 I don't think that far.

Speaker 1:57:09 Mm-hmm.

Eugene 1:57:09 And we've, we've also had this conversation.

Speaker 1:57:10 Mm-hmm.

Eugene 1:57:10 I'm like, no, no. This, for me, is the World Cup of it all.

Speaker 1:57:13 Right.

Eugene 1:57:13 For now. This is what's happening, and I'm enjoying this.

Speaker 1:57:16 So tell me, um, what's the mission statement of your life?

Eugene 1:57:21 I do not want to regret not doing things

1:57:25 I, for a while I forgot the philosophy that my mom taught me, that no matter who says what and how uncomfortable it is, you didn't break anywhere, you must just keep going. Her other philosophy was you can always start over. You know? Try again and try again and try again. And there was a time where, besides the sabbatical that I took, I just paused. I stopped doing things that made me happy, and I started doing things that made other people happy.

Speaker 1:57:46 Mm-hmm.

Eugene 1:57:46 And when I, when I was in really, really a bad place, I had lost my son, things were just horrible-

Speaker 1:57:51 Mm

Eugene 1:57:51 ... emotionally. Those people that I had tried to satisfy were nowhere to be found. In fact, I would find out when I came out of it that they were the first people that would call me unreliable, they would call me-

Speaker 1:57:59 Mm

Eugene 1:57:59 ... I don't show up for places, I don't show up for work, and they didn't even bother knowing what was wrong in the first place. So that alone freed me and gave me the independence to just ride bikes by myself, uh, go to shooting by myself. So I learned to do these hobbies and little side quests, as my daughter calls them, you know-

Speaker 1:58:16 Hmm

Eugene 1:58:16 ... by myself.

Speaker 1:58:17 Hmm. So you have low, what we call pos- negative affect. Negative affect is intensity of negative emotions, and half the population is above average and half the population is below average.

Eugene 1:58:28 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:58:28 Right? So you're, you're low in negative affect, and which is one of the reasons that you can, terrible things can happen to you and you feel crummy about it, but it doesn't ruin your life. It doesn't ruin your life.

Eugene 1:58:39 Oops, suspenders and a desk again.

Speaker 1:58:40 You have huge amount of resilience-

Eugene 1:58:41 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:58:42 ... because of this, which is really great. I would say that you've got what we call the temperament of the cheerleader. High positive neg- uh, high-intensity positive emotions and low-intensity negative emotions. It doesn't mean you don't feel these particular things-

Eugene 1:58:53 Hmm

Speaker 1:58:53 ... but that's just the functioning of the limbic system.

Eugene 1:58:55 Mm-hmm. I know it's gonna work out.

Speaker 1:58:55 Yeah. You, on the other hand, are high-high. High positive emotion, high negative emotion. You feel things really strongly.

Eugene 1:59:02 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1:59:03 You feel things strongly.

Eugene 1:59:04 Yeah, yeah. Sounds about right.

Speaker 1:59:04 That's the mad scientist profile.

Eugene 1:59:06 Hmm.

Speaker 1:59:06 Right?