Arthur C. Brooks: Why Humans Are So Bad at Being Happy

[upbeat music] I've often thought one of the worst things that happened to society was a series of movies, whether it was kids movies or adult movies, rom-coms-

Rom-coms

... but that were happily ever after. Like, they, they ended at the moment where the people met.

See, here's the problem-

And I, I always wondered what that did to people's brains growing up in a world where they went like, "Oh, if you meet the person you love, that's the end." And then it's like, this is it.

That's right.

Like, w- w- what is that-

That is the same idea. Pac-Man did that to us as well.

[laughs] I never finished Pac-Man.

Remember? Th- those, they meet, and then do-do. Miss Pac-Man and-

Yeah, but I've never, I've never seen the end of Pac-Man.

Yeah. Yeah. So-

I saw Junior Pac-Man, so I know h- what they did, but I don't know-

But there's no, there's-

Is there a Junior Pac-Man?

Yeah, Junior Pac-Man happened for sure. Junior Pac-Man.

There was Junior Pac-Man.

Junior Pac-Man.

Yeah, Junior Pac-Man. So I knew that-

Like baby Pac-Man

... yeah, like a tiny little Pac-Man, had a little bow, and then the pickety-picky, but like a tiny little Pac-Man.

So was a girl Pac-Man.

Yeah, there was a boy and a girl.

And a girl to-

There was a boy and a girl.

Ms. P- Ms.- Ms. Pac-Man.

No, there was Ms. Pac-Man.

No.

But then there was also Junior Pac-Man.

Yeah. Junior Pac-Man. Good to know.

Yeah, no, no. I mean, that's, so you're on, you're on tour all the time.

Not on tour, but just, like, life takes me, you know? I've had the gift and the curse of planting, you know, many trees in many different places.

Mm-hmm.

So oftentimes they call me to go and tend to them.

Right.

This is not a euphemism for families, Eugene. Please.

Mm-mm. Yeah, I know.

Please.

How many children do you have? [laughs]

No, y- I, Eugene was about to.

I was like-

Please, Eugene. I have zero. None of these things. Oh, yes.

Yeah.

Ah.

Do you speak Zulu? I th-

I, I turns out I don't. [laughs]

[laughs]

Turns out I don't. [laughs]

Because the way you, the way you turned like, "Yeah."

It's like I l- yeah.

Like, yeah, yeah. You were like, "Yeah."

No, it's a, I got a, my gr- my grandparents-

Yeah

... my gr- uh, my great-grandparents actually, they, they, they were Danish.

Mm-hmm.

And they had this, they believe the Holy Spirit spoke to them that they should go become missionaries, Lutheran Missionaries to the Zulus-

No way

... in South Africa.

No ways.

Yeah. And they didn't speak a word of the Zulu language, which is problematic.

This is wh- I mean, look at this connection. The other day, I was at Carnegie Hall, and I was thinking you fell off the stage-

I did

... at Carnegie Hall.

You heard about that?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I did.

What happened?

That was my Carnegie Hall debut.

[laughs]

It was beautiful. I was 22.

What happened?

I was, um, doing my Carnegie Hall debut in chamber music.

Yeah.

I was, like, a professional French horn player.

You.

All through, through my 20s. I left, I left college at 19. I dropped out for-

Just to confirm, which one is the French horn?

The round one.

Yeah. W- the one you put under you, then you-

It's, uh, the round one, and then it has the bell in the back that you put your hand in.

Yeah. Uh-huh. Okay.

And so the bell is going backwards.

Okay, okay, okay.

Yeah.

Got it, got it, got it.

Yeah. And, uh, I wanted to be the world's greatest French horn player since the time I, since I was eight years old.

You knew this is what you wanted to do.

I knew.

What did you see that made you think French horn player, me?

Well, I, I was a good musician. I started violin at four and piano at five-

Oh, man.

Yeah. It was-

It's so funny that humans do that. Why are we more concerned with, like, assuaging the, the, like ... Like, everyone out there is having their own, like, fear. Everyone out there is going, "Are you okay?" And we're like, "No, no, no, I am okay."

Mm-hmm.

"Do not worry about the arm that's dangling in the wrong dir-"

That's right. Clearly something broken.

"You do not worry."

Yeah.

I also think a-

"Let's move on"

... a group, "Are you okay?" is not about you, it's about them.

But that's what I'm saying. Why do we care about ... You've just fallen off a stage.

No, it's just about them. How ... Is this concert gonna continue? Is he still gonna be able to do this thing for us at some point?

Yeah, but where does that, where does that come from in society?

What do we need to get involved?

What do you think that is?

So that's a natural human tendency-

Mm

... to show strength. That's the natural human tendency to show resiliency.

Mm-hmm.

And it's especially true for men. They don't wanna look as if they're vulnerable in any way. They don't wanna look like they're weak in any way.

Mm-hmm.

It's very, very embarrassing to, to, to show that something has hurt you-

Yeah.

Okay. All right

... for young men, especially in front of a whole bunch of people that I'm trying to impress. I'd been spending the last hour and a half trying to impress them as deeply as I possibly could. This is my New York debut.

Carnegie Hall.

Carnegie Hall, baby. I mean, how do you get to Carnegie Hall? Well, try not to fall off the stage-

Yeah

... among other things. And, and, and so during that, what you don't want is that to char- your weakness to characterize your New York debut.

to happiness and-

'Cause we're gonna laugh like crazy about it now-

Let me think

... because it's in the past

... where was one ... Okay, I'll tell you where was, uh, where, where one was. Um, the earliest I can sort of remember in my life was I was in a school play, and-

Your school had plays?

Yeah. Y- your school didn't have plays?

[laughs]

No. [laughs]

So I was in a school play.

[laughs]

And I was six or seven years old.

Mm.

And in the play I was, I was, uh, portraying a tortoise, right? And so I had a big shell on my back and a whole thing, and there was one part of the play where we all had this, like, march dance thing where it was like, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And we walk off the stage, and then we walk back onto the stage, and we walk off the stage, on, on the stage. And then I was walking back onto the stage, and as I got up onto one of the steps, one of my tortoise feet caught the step. 'Cause I hadn't walked much on stairs with tortoise feet. Human feet are, are pretty much knew what I was doing.

You didn't attend much rehearsals.

I, I mean, even then I didn't-

'Cause also rehearsals don't happen with costumes on.

Yeah, they don't.

Most of the time.

You just, you just do it with, like, your ... You know?

Mm-hmm.

And I, I tripped, but it was one of those, like, you know where you save yourself from tripping-

Mm

... and so it makes the trip worse.

So you're just like, you're just flying off the stage.

'Cause often times, if you just trip and fall down and get up, it's, it's not bad. But sometimes you go, "I'm not tripping. I'm not tripping."

Right. Right.

And then it draws attention to the trip.

Uh-huh.

So it was like, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga. And then while this was happening, everyone's turning.

specific moment.

But the presence of mind that that takes at six years old to figure out that this is a comedic bit.

I don't think I thought it was a comedic, I don't think I thought it was a comedic bit. I think I thought to myself, "If I can be the person who is creating this, then you can't hold it against me." Does that make sense?

It, it makes sense.

Um-

It actually explains a lot.

Yeah. I was going like, "Oh, okay. No, no, I'm, I'm the one who did it. I'm the one, uh-

Oh, yeah

... I, I did it. I did it. I did it."

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the second time is interesting. So you, it was surprising to them but funny at the same time.

Completely.

The second time, actually, so there's this really interesting thing about comedy.

Mm-hmm.

There's a little part of the limbic system of your brain. It's called the parahippocampal gyrus, and what it does is that that's what mediates surprise. That's the reason that all humor is based on surprise. It's all based on surprise.

Mm.

And, and so what, what'll happen, I mean, any stup- I could tell you a stupid dad joke.

Yeah.

And it's all based on that. So I wanna die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

[laughs]

Yes.

Right, right? So, and [laughs]

That's a crack.

Thank you, Eugene.

That was a good one.

[laughs]

No, no, no. Thank you. It's like, it's, it's great. You'll have more of my kids. So, so what that does is it flicks the parahippocampal gyrus.

Uh-huh.

And, and if it's too much you're gonna like, "Why are you making, making fun of hurricane victims?"

what, what's yours, Eugene? What's your-

Yeah, no, we, we, we're getting to the, the good stuff here.

We'll get-

What's your, what's your moment?

Why you looking at me like you expect me to tell me, to tell you guys something embarrassing about my ...

No, it's not embarrassing.

Okay, here we go.

Just what's your moment?

So this was my first year of school.

Ah.

So my parents had bought me a school uniform, right?

Uh-huh.

So everyone is excited about me going to school fa... Personally, I'd been looking at these gray flannel pants for the longest time. I'm gonna wear these pants, my uniform, my white shirt, I'm gonna do this thing. So it came with a belt. Ironically, that's what I forgot this time on my trip.

[laughs]

And I've gone to shop so many times. Almost bought the shiesty, but not a belt. In any case, so I go to school for the first week. On Friday, and remember, it's orientation for us, so they're teaching us the songs that we must sing at assembly. We had assembly, but it was outside, no hall.

You were what, like, six years old?

Six years, yeah.

Okay. Six years old.

First year of school.

Yeah.

So all of this is happening. I lose my belt playing football after school. So on Friday I have to go to school without a belt. My mom notices I don't have a belt on. What does she do? She had bought a pair of suspenders for Christmas clothes.

[laughs]

[laughs] This is not the fashion statement you're trying to make, is this what I gather? [laughs]

Maybe, maybe-

He's reliving this horrible moment.

Maybe the-

This moment of trauma because of you.

No, wait. Maybe the professor will explain to me-

You were a tripping turtle, yeah.

Yeah, bruh.

Literally. Like, the suspenders and your mom being like, "Slawa Zisthwabadaz."

[laughs]

"Eh, Eh-oo-gen."

Eh-oo-gen. [laughs]

"You can't sit here, Our Father. You can't sit here."

I haven't accessed that memory for the longest time.

There you go.

In fact, never.

That is so powerful.

[clears throat]

And most powerful for me. Thank you.

Absolutely.

Thank you. Thank you.

You know, you, you know what the, the happiness-

Mm-hmm

... you've brought to me-

Mm-hmm

... one, you've brought me closer to my friend.

Yeah, yeah.

But two, and more importantly, in your story I noticed you were playing football. Wow, Eugene.

I was good at football.

This is-

What do you mean I was playing football?

But now I see, like, you, you were playing football, the football made you lose your belt, and this is another reason that you now hate football.

Oh, my goodness.

I'm slowly piecing this together,

my friend.

Yeah. But for both of you guys, if you think about this, these are the formative experiences that make us who we are.

Hmm.

See, here's the deal, and this is a real problem, especially today. A lot of young people watch you. Big fans.

Yeah?

Mm-hmm.

The biggest mistake that a lot of young people make today is they think that the pain that they have must be eliminated. And the truth is that these experiences, and the on, the day-to-day suffering that they're going to inevitably face, that's their teacher and makes them who they actually are. So to the extent that we, that we resist the pain in our lives to try to lower the suffering that we face, the worse off we are. The worse off that we are. The fact is, I asked you about something-

Mm-hmm

... that was a really bad day for you.

Yes.

But you turned it into a good day. This was an unambiguously bad day for you.

Mm-hmm.

And for me, it was the worst day of my young adult life.

Right.

And in point of fact, these things made us who we are in a very, in a fundamental way. This was, these were turning points. These were inflections. I realized that day that I didn't actually have to be this person, that it didn't matter. It didn't matter, that that wasn't who I was, was the guy falling off the stage. That wasn't who I w- I, I s- here's the deal. It's funny, I was talking to this young guy. I was talking to a... I, I do a lot of talks for young adults, and I was talking to a group of young adults in Washington, DC. Uh, they were all working on the, on Capitol Hill. And Washington, DC, is the world's most dysfunctional dating market. It's com- it's, it's, it's a nightmare.

In what way?

That, you know-

Was it, was it?

... everybody's kinda climbing, and they want power, and the, everybody's jockeying for position.

Oh, okay, yeah, yeah.

Okay, okay, yeah.

It's socially dysfunctional. And, and I'm talking to this group. They're all in their 20-somethings-

Mm-hmm

... uh, on, on the Senate side. And, and I was talking about, you know, you gotta treat your life like a startup.

You gotta be an entrepreneur in the business of your own life. Your life is an enterprise. You're the founder. And the number one most entrepreneurial thing that you can do, you know what it is? They're like, "No." Fall in love a- and put your heart at risk. Give your heart away, right? And I thought it was pretty clever. Anyway, a couple weeks later I'm on a plane, and a kid comes up to... Kid, 26. Kid compared to me. Comes up to me, he says, "Professor Brooks." I said, "Yeah." He said, "I saw you give that talk on Capitol Hill. I can't get it out of my head. I'm on my way right now to tell a woman that I've been lo- in love with secretly for two years that I love her because of your speech." And I'm like, "It's only a speech." [laughs]

[laughs]

[laughs]

I don't wanna-

Oh, wow

... I don't wanna ruin your life.

Oh, wow.

I don't wanna ruin your life.

Oh. [laughs]

And I'm like-

Our hippocampus gyri is important

... and I was like, "Oh, boy. So her parahippocampal gyri's about to get flicked pretty hard."

Oh, man.

Anyway, so, and so I said, "Well, you know, let me know how it goes," and I gave him my email. Don't hear from him, which is a bad sign. I see him several months later at, at, at a party in DC. I was running a company in those days. He comes up to me and he says, "Remember me?" And I'm like, "Yeah."

[laughs] I like so much effort to not voice-

And I says, and I said, "Yeah, on the plane," right?

[laughs]

So yeah. I said, "So what happened with that girl?" And he said, "She shot me down. She didn't just not love me. She introduced me to the guy that she was in love with."

Oof.

"It was the worst day of my life." And I was very contrite. I said, "I'm sorry. I'm not trying to ruin your life." And he said, "No, no, no, no. I'm here because I wanted to tell you that I w- I meant to get in touch and thank you."

Hmm.

And I said, "Well, what are you, a masochist? Why, why do you wanna thank me?" And he said, "'Cause that was the thing I was literally most afraid of in my life, and it happened-

Oh, wow

... and I didn't die." I didn't die

Where did you break? No way

You didn't

Like my mom said

Yeah

Yeah

Exactly right. Exactly right. I didn't ... Look, I broke my horn, but I didn't break my life. This is the thing. It's so funny-

Uh, I wrote my first book on happiness about 25 years ago.

Right.

Right. But-

So you, you've really been in the game.

Yeah, yeah, but I've been the f- seven, the last seven years writing, speaking, and teaching full time. Nothing else.

So-

Nothing else

... so let, let's start with the, the, the core idea because I, I think it's important for us to build from the ground up.

Mm-hmm.

Understanding you and understanding your work. The first thing I, I realize we need to think about is w- what is happiness?

Yeah.

'Cause every- everyone says they want to be happy.

Right.

Every o- America, the pursuit of happiness.

Which is not the promise of happiness.

No, but the pursuit.

But anyway, yeah.

You know what I mean? The pursuit.

Yeah.

So I, I, I wanna know from you as somebody who's studied it, how do you define happiness?

Yeah. So first, what is it not? It's not a feeling. The biggest mistake that we make is misunderstanding emotions. Most people think that happiness is a feeling, but happiness is a feeling kind of like the, your Thanksgiving dinner is the smell of your turkey. It's not. The smell of the turkey is evidence of, of Thanksgiving dinner, and your ... The feeling of happiness is evidence of actual happiness. Happiness has, like your Thanksgiving dinner, has three macronutrients, three constituent parts that you need to get really good at understanding and changing your habits around. Number one is enjoyment, which is not the same thing as pleasure.

Mm-hmm.

If you're pursuing pleasure, you're not gonna find happiness. You're gonna find rehab.

Hmm.

And it's very different understanding the difference between pleasure and enjoyment.

Enjoyment.

Second is satisfaction, which is the joy that you get from an accomplishment after struggle. And the, the accomplishment is not more important than the struggle for satisfaction. And the third is meaning. That's what I'm doing most of my work on for now years, meaning, the meaning of life. You know, what is the, the why of your existence? You need to become an elite athlete in enjoying your life, taking satisfaction in your accomplishments and your achievements, and understanding the why of your existence.

Enjoyment.

Those are your three big jobs-

And enjoying them

So if they're missing meaning, then there will be no reason for what they're doing. So meaning really has three ... But meaning's the most, is the heaviest, most philosophical part of it all, but it's the most important of these macronutrients. It's the protein. It's basically the protein of your happiness is your-

Okay.

Driver, mm-hmm.

Yeah, so meaning is, is really a combination of being able to answer three questions. Why do things happen the way they do in life? That's coherence. And some people answer that with religion.

Uh-huh.

And some people answer that with science. I'm both religious and a scientist. I'm both. Some people ... Here's a funny thing. You know people who follow a lot of conspiracy theories.

Yeah.

That's very common today. They're going down the rabbit hole. Are you a conspiracy theorist? Generally speaking, conspira-

Love your Batman voice though.

[laughs]

The best one I've heard yet.

You know what?

We had Mamdi trying.

Yeah.

It was okay. Yours-

You rate this one more?

Yeah, yeah.

Nah, Mamdi still wins it for me.

The Batman voice.

The Batman voice?

Yeah, the voice.

Yeah, yeah.

Conspiracy, conspiracy theory.

Okay. You're a conspiracy theorist.

[laughs]

It's not bad. It's actually not bad.

Yeah.

No.

Yeah. [laughs] That's, that's like I, I'm, I'm actually, I did ... I'm, I'm, I'm auditioning to be the next Batman. I realize-

[laughs]

but wait, but-

That's just one element of it

... but while you're still on that, though, let's talk on, on that one element. Does that apply to everything? So can you meet somebody who, for instance, is so religious that they're not having a good time in life? Or can you meet somebody who is so science-based-

Mm

... that they're not having a good time in life, or does it only apply to, like, conspiracy?

Well, conspiracy theories, it tends to be kind of antisocial. And so if something that your-

Okay

... your sense of coherence is pulling you away from your love relationships-

Okay

... then that's gonna be-

Pulling you away from community

... militating against another one of the elements of meaning-

Mm-hmm

... which is significance.

Mm-hmm.

Significance is that your life matters to someone.

Oh.

Your life has to matter to someone. No matter-

So here's the significant other part.

It has to be your spouse, your kids, your parents, your friends, God.

Oh, wow.

You need to be significant. And when you're doing something with your sense of coherence, like conspiracy theories, that's ruining your relationships, then coherence goes up, but significance goes down and, and you're defeating the purpose.

Mm-hmm.

Those are different elements that have to be in balance.

You become an expert in that subject, but alone in it.

And if you-

My mom said this a lot

... They're n- nice.

My, and my mom said this a lot.

I gotta meet your mom, because already your mom has made two appearances.

[laughs] I, but I guess that's the foundation of all relationship, right?

Yeah.

Is, is-

Yeah

... significance.

In fact, all society, funny enough, even if you just keep expanding on it-

Yeah, that's right

... it becomes the, like, how much do you care about being right-

Be- being right

... versus, yeah

... I mean, that's the whole basis of our, you know, culture of contempt. That's the whole basis of the fact that we can't get along politically, that we have ideological wars, cancel culture, all of it, is this grievance about having to be right all the time.

Mm.

As opposed to, "Huh, I wonder, I wonder if somebody actually is saying something interesting to me."

Mm-hmm.

Inquiry is not about being right. Inquiry is about learning.

But the system isn't designed to reward that.

Activism is about being right.

Yes.

And so when you get the wrong balance of inquiry and activism, it turns the ship over.

Yeah, and, and that's why I'm saying the system is important, though.

Right.

Because what you just said about, like, our childhoods.

Right.

Something forms you.

Right.

Something shapes you.

Right.

And oftentimes it's how the people around you responded to an action that you took.

Right.

Right?

No, you-

You don't

... there's a, it's an entirely different scale of reward that you get. You get rewarded, but you don't get the same scale of reward, the same intensity of reward-

Yes, yeah

... which is really, really important. You get a slow burn of what you're actually able to ha- like, you have a different kind of impact. You have to, you have to, to, to, um, become, I guess, comfortable with the idea that you're not gonna get the same intensity of reaction. And part of the reason for that, by the way, is the limbic system of the brain has more tissue dedicated to negative emotion than to positive emotion.

Oh, wow.

So why is that?

Because in the evolutionary environment, in the Pleistocene-

To avoid, yeah

... you needed negative emotions more than you needed positive emotions. Negative emotions are an alarm-

Yeah, to avoid danger

... that, that, you fir- that, so fear, anger, disgust, and sadness, those are the four negative emotions.

Wow.

And all of them-

You're good, man.

He's a professor.

That's, this is, this is, he's a, he's-

He's a professor. I love the idea that Eugene would be in your class, like, "Yo, this guy."

[laughs]

"Yo. Hey, my man, I think you're gonna ace this class."

I know. He's-

"This guy."

Good, man.

"This guy in the front."

I'm gonna pay you to come to my class.

"By the way, I love your fly." [laughs]

[laughs] Keep it down. Keep it d- [laughs]

You're a horrible friend. [laughs]

[laughs] Now he's yours, Arthur. [laughs]

Perfect. You know, I got students who are big fans of yours, who are like, "I was there that day."

let's move the, so keep moving down the meaning-

So, so the negative, the negative emotions-

Yeah, yeah

... so the negative emotions exist because those are alarm systems for the things that can kill you. You know, you have-

Right

... sadness so that you will not be rejected by your kin. We're, we're, in the, in the Pleistocene, human, Homo sapiens lived in bands of 30 to 50 individuals.

Okay.

Kin-based hierarchical bands of individuals. And, and, and the Pleistocene, starting 250,000 years ago, was when we got the modern brain. Our brains are the same. And so all the weird stuff that we do today is because it's, it was suitable to being in b- hierarchical kin-based bands of 30 to 50 individuals. It explains almost everything.

Huh.

It explains how genders work together. It explains why we have envy, why we try to climb in hierarchies, why we wanna be famous. All that stuff is, is actually explained by this, the Pleistocene brain-

Mm

... is what it comes down to. But also that Pleistocene brain had a lot more space for the negative emotions. Positive emotions are nice to have. Negative emotions keep you alive. And so if you-

Okay

... hear a little snap of a twig behind you, your first reaction is not, "Uh-" I bet that's my friend Trevor who's come to say hi. You know, like, you j- run and ask-

Yeah

... questions later.

Yeah.

And, and you know, you, you wanna make sure that you're not gonna be abandoned, you wanna make sure you're not gonna get killed, you wanna make sure you don't ingest poison. That's what disgust is for. There's a beautiful little place in the limbic system called the an- the, the insular cortex, and that little thing is your, is your disgust mechanism. And that's all that kept you from ingesting poison before there was, like, vaccines and antibiotics.

It was just a signifier that-

Yeah

... this thing could kill you.

Yeah. That's why something that smells dead, something that smells rotten, that's why it disgusts you. And that's why your dog, who's very disgusting by the way, that's why he licks the floor, because he is actually not gonna be exposed to the same kind of pathogens because of, you know, the, the, the, the constituent parts of his saliva that can neutralize some of the germs that you can't. That's why he's like, "That's not disgusting." And yet you think that's disgusting and you tell your kids not to lick the floor. Anyway, I digress. The whole point is thank God for negative emotions. They've kept you alive again and again and again and again.

But now you wanna be in a place where your negative emotions are in control?

Well, you wanna manage them so they don't manage you-

Mm

... 'cause we're not in the Pleistocene.

Mm.

And that's why we have this great big prefrontal cortex, all this tissue behind the forehead-

Mm-hmm

... 30% of your brain by weight.

future.

So does that also mean that your dog can experience a lot more stress and pain because the now can last forever for it?

Well-

Like, let's say your, your dog's experiencing an adverse experience.

Right.

Is that thing lasting forever in its mind?

Well, the limbic system for the dog is pretty... The, the Homo sapiens and canines have, they, they, they, they actually evolved in parallel.

Okay.

So they have very f- very similar emotions. So when you think, when your dog looks at you with lo- do you have a dog?

No. I had one.

Yeah.

Long story.

And, and, and your dog looked at you with love, right?

Yeah. Absolutely.

Your dog was feeling love. Your dog-

Yeah

... actually gets oxytocin, which is a neuropeptide in the brain, the bonding hormone-

Yes

... the sense of love that you get when you look at your kids and your friends and your, your, your beloved. Your dog looks at you and you stroke the dog and give your dog eye contact, he gets a 56% bump in oxytocin, just like you.

Wow.

Your cat, 12%.

I knew it. Assholes. I always say this.

Hold on. Your, your dog loves you. Your cat-

We shouldn't even say-

... tolerates you

... your cat. You should say the cat-

The cat could do without you.

Hey.

Yeah.

Let's say the cat you live with. Please, let's stop perpetuating this myth. It is not your cat.

Give me an example of that at, like, different age levels for a parent, for instance.

So-

So let's say, let's say it's a five-year-old, a 15-year-old, and a 25-year-old.

So a five-year-old is, the way that you motivate a five-year-old is that you say, "If you're a good little boy, Santa Claus is gonna bring you some nice presents."

Okay.

You're motivating them to behave in a particular way happily, because that's their kind of little kid purpose.

Mm-hmm. Got it.

Is getting the, getting the Christmas morning and getting a bunch of stuff under the tree. You get a little bit older, it's like, "Get good grades in school, you're gonna get, get to go to a good university and you're gonna have a better life."

Huh.

When you get a little bit older in life, it's going to be, "If you actually behave in a particular way, you're gonna meet the love of your life, and that's really gonna complete you."

So it's always reward-based.

It's always reward-based.

Are we just, like, reward-

It's kinda goal-based

Mm.

It's kinda getting to a particular goal and making progress toward the goal. So what, how we're really wired, which is really interesting-

Yeah

... we think that what we really want is the reward. What we really want is progress toward the reward.

Yeah.

And if we think that we're gonna be in bliss when we get to the reward, we're gonna, we suffer from a, a syndrome called arrival fallacy.

Mm-hmm.

It's a funny thing. It's very common that Olympic athletes who win the gold suffer a clinical depression in the two, two months after they win the gold, because they've been suffering, suffering and suffering. And they think that all this progress, which was awesome, is actually gonna lead to permanent bliss when they win the gold.

Wow.

And it's just another day. They go back to their hotel, they're like, you know, looking at the wall.

With this thing around their neck.

Yeah. With a thing around their neck and it's just another day, and they're looking at the rest of their lives when they're no longer winning Olympic gold medals, and it's very, very depressing. So this is a funny thing about dieting, is another example of this. All diets will make you lose weight. I mean, e- and except for the all candy corn diet or something, right?

Yeah, right.

I mean, there's, like, any sensible diet [laughs] you can cut fat, you can cut carbs, you can cut, right? You'll lose weight. And, and it's awesome, right? If you're trying to lose weight, because the scale goes down. It's a reward every single day and progress toward the goal. But what, what's the reward when you actually hit your target weight? And that's never getting to eat what you like ever again for the rest of your life.

Mm-hmm.

Congratulations.

propelling you, noth- you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

And then what happens is you quit the game.

Right.

So you play, like, 40% of the game. You do everything around getting to the end.

Mm-hmm.

But then you don't get to the end because the game didn't ... It's, I forget what they call it, but essentially some games will dole it out in the right amount.

Right.

You're moving forward. Now you're moving sideways, sideways, sid-

Right

... moving forward, sideways, sid- some go do whatever you want. And it's interesting how that flips, and I wondered how, how that applies to life in what you're saying.

The, almost everything is like this. People who, who truly are all about enjoying the journey, they enjoy their lives because they understand that life is all about making progress toward particular moral goals. People who are all about actually getting to the end. So w- what, what's a, the best predictor of having a crummy marriage is having a destination wedding. Why? Because your wedding-

Mm

... isn't a destination. Your wedding is just-

Mm

... the beginning of a journey. Destination wedding. Destination. My destination is actually-

You're beginning something with a end

... locking that person down forever. No. There's no, there's no destination in your wedding. E- elope. Justice of the peace. I'm Catholic. Don't do that. We're Catholic.

[laughs]

We don't do that. Yeah.

Remember that.

Priest. Go to a priest.

Oh, Father, hallowed be thy name.

Go to a priest. Go to a priest. Go to a priest.

By, by thy way to Osama Zulu. [laughs]

There you go. I, I want it in Zulu.

Oh, yeah. No. [laughs]

Yeah. I want Zulu because, you know, my grandparents didn't lose it, run to Zulu. They got like [laughs]

[laughs]

Like, um. [laughs]

I've often thought one of the worst things that happened to society was a series of movies, whether it was kids movies or adult movies, rom-coms-

Rom-coms

... but that were happily ever after. Like, they, they ended at the moment where the people met. And I-

So here's the problem

... I always wondered what that did to people's brains growing up in a world where they went like, "Oh, if you meet the person you love, that's the end," and then it's like, "This is it." Like, what-

That's right

... what, what is that?

That is the same idea. [laughs]

I never finished Pac-Man.

Remember? It was they meet and then who do, Ms. Pac-Man.

Yeah, but I never, I've never f- seen the end of Pac-Man.

Yeah. Yeah. So-

I saw Junior Pac-Man, so I know what they did, but I don't know-

But there's Junior Pac-Man?

Yeah, Junior Pac-Man happened for sure.

Junior Pac-Man.

There was Junior Pac-Man.

Junior Pac-Man.

Yeah, Junior Pac-Man. So I knew that-

Like baby, baby Pac-Man.

Yeah, like a tiny little Pac-Man, had a little bow, and then the pickety pickety, but like a tiny little Pac-Man.

So it was a girl Pac-Man.

Yeah, there was a boy and a girl.

They had the top.

There was a boy and a girl.

Ms. Pac-

No, there was Ms. Pac-Man.

No.

But then there was also Junior Pac-Man.

Yeah. Junior Pac-Man. Good. Yeah.

in life.

Oh, now you're a Roomba. Very different.

Nice.

Not going in one straight line.

That's, that's like the, the vacuum cleaner, right?

Yes. That little, that little-

Yeah.

Have you seen how that thing moves? You don't want your life like that.

Didn't they, didn't they just go bankrupt? Didn't the company go bankrupt?

I wouldn't be shocked because, I mean, have you seen that thing?

These kind of reviews.

I mean, no wonder.

[laughs]

Of course.

It's a, it's a metaphor of unhappiness. So what do you want? [laughs]

So that's, so that's interesting. You, you, you wanna be in a place where ... I mean, this is, this requires a total rewiring of the brain though.

Yeah.

Like how I, I even think about myself, I, I don't know how you would think about it for yous- But I, I think a lot of people would relate to this idea of going, "Wait, wait, wait, wait. But, but Professor Brooks, I've been told get the job-"

Mm-hmm

... "and then life right."

Right. No, get the grades.

Get the grades.

Yeah.

And then I'm gonna get the job.

Yeah.

Like, the grades is the job.

Right. And then get the house.

Get the job.

Right.

You're gonna be ... Then you get the house, you're gonna be happy. Get the person you're in the house with.

rand a month." I was like, "50,000 rand a month?"

That's insane.

"That's impossible."

Yeah, right.

"That's im- no one can earn that kind of money." And he's like, "No." He said, "Let me tell you now." He said, "I know more of my friends who earn the 5, 10,000 rand a month who are happy than I do the ones who earn the 50,000." He said, "Because with them, they spend that money and more every month, then get depressed that they only have it-"

Right

... and then they try and move it to 60. Then they spend 60, then they move it to 70. Then they spend 70." Then he said, "I've watched them move up that ladder."

Hm.

And, and he said, he genuinely, and I'm, I'm, like, 16 years old, and he said to me, "I know it seems like a myth, but there is no number." He said, "I've seen everyone in my life."

Right.

He said, "There just, there is no number." And I was like, I, I just, I can't believe anyone wouldn't be happy with 50,000 rand a month. My brain was like, "That's not possible."

And the same thing is true with power, and the same thing is true with pleasure, and the same thing is true with fame. Fame is the worst, by the way. Fame is the only one of life's rewards that you can only ever be happy in spite of, never because of. But you wanna be famous. Everybody wants to be famous, 'cause fame is rising in the hierarchy of your band of 30 to 50 individuals.

Hm.

Where more people are thinking about you than you're thinking about, because you'll get more, you're more likely to survive, get your caloric needs met, and get lots of mates. The trouble is that we can't accommodate that tendency to a world in which we can actually be famous in front of millions of people. That will make you-

Oh

... literally insane.

Okay.

It will make you literally insane unless you're very self-governing, unless you're really self-managing. And you know tons of people in show business-

Yeah

... that are pretty nuts. They're pretty nuts, 'cause they're on this treadmill of more and more and more, and-

Yeah

... I can't have enough, and it's like drinking seawater. The more that I drink, the th- the thirstier I get.

The more dehydrated they get.

Exactly right.

Yeah. It's, it's, it's also, it also does this thing to you where, you know, when you think about, like, the fame of it all and how powerful it is, I've often thought one of the most genius things that TikTok did, that I don't think any other social media platform ever did, but I, I, I watched it on TikTok, TikTok allows everyone to go viral.

Hm.

If you look at old social media, there wa- there was sort of, like, the hierarchy that existed in old media moved-

Right

... into it.

Mm-hmm.

watch how there's one video almost everyone has that is an outlier-

Right. Yeah

... that's a blip in their world, and then watch how their usage and posting-

Right

... exponentially jumps after that.

This is, this is Vegas. It works, it works the brain in the same way. So-

Las Vegas?

Yeah. So the, the, the way to get rich is to work really hard and get a good education, and, and, and be responsible and show up, and, and create value, and create some more value. And, and then, and then dot, dot, dot, 30 or 40 years later you got a bunch of money. Or go to a casino-

Mm

... and get, and get ahead. [laughs] And so the result is, I want the easy way.

Play the lottery.

Ching, ching.

Yeah.

Right? Roulette, that's TikTok. That's how the algorithm works. I'm gonna get ahead. I get ahead fast, because you want it-

And the videos get more and more extreme

... and it wants it.

Yo, man, they give you one, and I've watched people-

Never been on TikTok

... I've watched peop- like, so crazy sto-

Never

... this is the random thing, thank God for me. My friend signed up to TikTok for me when it first came out. I, I was like, "I can't keep up anymore."

Yeah.

And he was like, "No, no, no, I'll just do it for you because you don't wanna lose your account, and it's gonna be the biggest thing." And he was right. And, um, because, because he was on it for me, he was just using it, and he lived in, like, West Virginia, and all the content was to him. And so to this day, our algorithm, the algorithm's not, like, completely correct, and it didn't hook me.

Right.

So I, I get to enjoy TikTok as a pop, but I've never-

As a bystander

... I've literally never been on TikTok for more than-

So are you hooked on any social media?

... more than six minutes, seven minutes. I deleted them because of that.

Ah, yeah, because it hooked you.

about that?

... is very political.

Did you know that?

Very political.

Any information.

Yeah.

It's, it's got you.

And then Instagram-

And then Instagram, ah, got you, got you, got you. It doesn't matter what, got, got you, got you, got you, got you.

So you took the apps off your phone.

Yeah, I, I deleted them.

Yeah.

And then now what I do is I log in on a browser, which is painful.

Right.

It doesn't render correctly.

Yeah, yeah.

The images are off.

Yeah.

Sometimes it doesn't load. Just that, that block.

You're trying to actually increase the transaction cost. [laughs]

Yeah, that's, that's all I do, genuinely.

Yeah.

'Cause I, I don't, I don't believe ... I've tried many times to go, like, "I can handle this." I even put a block on my phone, five, like, 10 minutes, 20 minutes.

Right.

I was like, "I got this." And then my phone will be like, "You've reached your limit." And I'll, "Shut up, phone."

Right.

And I'll just go back in.

One good way to do this, by the way, is put your phone on black and white, because it'll actually make your brain work differently as you interact with social media.

Like you, when you change the color scale-

Yeah

time you think about it, you get a minor reward, which will send you in search of doing that thing again. But if it's just like it was the day before-

There's no point

... it's not gonna be as much, and you wanna get a little bit more spritz of dopamine from the locus coeruleus to go in your brain, so you gotta get more of it.

Fuel injected-

Which is escalation-

... to the engine

... is how this works, right?

Yeah.

And the stimulus, the more in, visually stimulating something actually is, the more beautiful, the more animated it is, the more that it looks kind of like real life-

Yeah

... the more dopamine you get, is what it comes down to. So my son, my oldest son, very wise, he just gets less dopamine from this thing, and since he's getting less dopamine from it, it's less rewarding, and so he does it less.

He's drinking too much.

Were you always happy?

Uh, I'm not happy at all.

Oh.

That's why I study-

Well-

... happiness.

Oh, well, there we go, folks.

[laughs]

Now we're getting to the crux of it.

Yeah.

Tell us more.

No, no, I'm much happier than I used to be because I study it, because-

Wait, wait, so what were you-

... knowledge is power

... what were you like before?

Well, I mean-

Like, wh- where do we meet you now in life, and where were you before?

So I, I left a ... I did a lot of different things in my career.

nonprofit think tank in Washington-

Yeah

... DC for a- almost 11 years. Great job. Great job. But I was ... And it had nothing to do with the job, but I was just empty, man. I was spent. Part of it was that I was ... You know, I didn't sleep very well, and I was, I was working all the time, and I worked 80 hours a week. I missed a lot of my kids' childhood, and I was unhappy. And so I did a pilgrimage, which I recommend to everybody, by the way. When you don't know what to do, go for a really long walk.

I did that.

Did you? Which one?

Well, yeah.

Which one? You walked for a year?

No, no, no, no.

No, no, I went-

He just, he went away

... I went away.

He just disappeared from where we all knew him.

Yeah, stopped social media, stopped work.

Went and lived by the beach.

Just-

Was just gone from everyone's lives

I recommend-

Best decision I've ever made.

Yeah. So I, I walked the Camino de Santiago, which is across northern Spain.

Oh, you did, like, the actual pilgrimage, like walk, walk pilgrimage?

Yeah, it's what Catholics have been doing for 1,100 years.

How long is this walk?

It depends on how long you do. I wanted to do the whole 33 days, which is 800K.

Yeah.

And my wife's like, "No." So we did what she was able, w- was willing to put up with, which was the last 160 kilometers.

Oh, that's a lot to put up with.

A lot of blisters.

[laughs]

You know? And you walk yourself into a vulnerable state. You walk yourself into weakness. You gotta be weak if you're gonna find the truth. The, I mean, that's why St. Paul said, "When I'm weak, then I'm strong." You can't connect with anybody. We talked, we started this whole conversation talking about embarrassment, shame, suffering.

Vulnerability. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

a submission to it, when I beat myself into a kind of a submission, which is what a pilgrimage is all about. And life is a pilgrimage. It's also a metaphor. You know, you enter into Santiago de Compostela, which is this city in northern Spain, where you end up at a cathedral. There's this medieval cathedral where, where St. James, the brother of St. John, is, where his remains are.

Mm.

And, uh, and, and that's where you're supposed to get this sort of sacred knowledge. But that's a metaphor for heaven. C- 'cause that's what life is supposed to be, for many, for anybody in, in Abrahamic religions, for sure, and, and many of the karmic religions as well, is the whole idea is being reunited with the godhead.

Yeah.

Being reunited with the divine. That's the onl- see, here's the thing. For a lot of religious people Evidence of the divine is that you crave the divine and can't get it on Earth.

Yeah. Hmm.

That's evidence of heaven is that you really believe that there's heaven, but you can't get it on Earth, and the harder you try, the further away you get from it.

And the day you see it, you won't be able to tell anyone about it.

And then [laughs]

It'll be just for you.

[laughs]

'Cause you can't die and go to heaven and come back again and say it was nice.

And that's the metaphor of this-

Mm-hmm

... of this, of this, yeah, I'm, I'm walking to the cathedral. I'm walking to the cathedral. I'm walking to the cathedral. And then when you actually l- people have been saying for 1,000 years that they're, they're blessed with sacred knowledge when they do this.

And so what were, what were some of your thoughts towards the end of it now as you-

It was becoming clearer. It was becoming clearer. It's like the clouds were lifting a little bit.

Mm.

And, and, and-

Was your wife on the walk with you?

Yeah. Yeah. We walked-

Did, did her life change? Because i- it doesn't sound like she was on the same, quote-unquote, "journey" that you were. She seems like she was a little bit more clear.

She's an adroit. She's an adept. She's a spiritual adept.

Okay.

So-

Amazing. Yeah

... yeah, for sure. For sure. And, and she didn't have the same issues. I mean, my wife, like, so, so the way that you measure happiness with self-evaluated happiness-

Yeah

... is called Cantrell Ladder, one to 10 or zero to 10, where zero is the unhappiest person you've ever met, the worst SOB, the person who's just miserable.

Yeah.

just looking at this, I would say this looks Chinese."

Hmm.

Right? Why does this look Chinese? And he said, "That's because of the philosophy of art in China." I said, "Ooh, tell me more." And he said, he said, l- he answered my question with a question. It was very Eastern. He said, "When you as a Westerner think of a work of art yet to be started, what image pops into your head?" And I said-

Painting

... "An empty canvas."

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah, painting.

He said, "That's because you think of things as starting from nothing and through your own initiative coming into existence." He said, "Okay." He said, "I think about a work of art not being started as an uncut boulder of jade where the, the, the sculpture is inside it, and I have to take everything away until I find it." And he said, "And now here's the important part." He said, "That's also the difference in philosophy between East and West about life, about success." He says, "You Westerners, you think that if you're gonna have enough, add more, add more, add more, add more, add more, then it's gonna be perfect. But by the time you're 45 years old, if you're remotely successful, more brush strokes means a denser, darker canvas, and you're not, it's not getting better. It's

getting uglier."

Mm.

But you think more, more paint, more paint. You're sloshing paint on. You're getting a boat at 75 or whatever, and you're not getting happier. He said, "We understand that the job on your last day is to chip away the last piece of jade when it's perfect, and that means that we chip away, we take away, we're subtracting."

Mm-hmm.

He said, "That's the difference." And I thought, "Ah, that's what I was thinking about on that camino. That's what I was thinking about-

Hmm

... that camino. What do I need to chip away? I've been adding brush strokes and adding brush strokes, and my canvas is not getting more beautiful. I need a different metaphor."

It's about sharing, yeah. It's about sharing and giving and downloading.

So what do I need to do? I need-

Chip away

So I started chipping away. Started chipping away

It's about giving and not taking-

Yeah

... and about sharing

It's, it is, you know, thinking. And, and now I don't have a, a bucket list on my birthday. I have a reverse bucket list on my birthday. Like, what is am I gonna stop doing this year? What are the relationships that don't serve me? What are the possessions that are tying me down?

I love that. You're getting, you're taking things out of the bucket-

Totally

... throwing them away

Totally. It's a reverse bucket list. Like, you know, my last birthday, you know, actually my, my, on my 60th birthday, which is in 2024, right? It was in the middle of an election year. And I'm like, "Yeah, what do I need to chip away?" And you know what it was? It was my political opinions. I needed more political opinions 'cause, I needed fewer political opinions 'cause I need more friends, [laughs] right? And I was adjudicating friendships on the basis of my political opinions.

A lot of people are

And I'm like, like, "No, no." And so I wrote down my strongest eight political opinions and I crossed them out, not because I think they're wrong. They might be wrong. I, I, for sure I believe things that are wrong, but I'm not gonna know which until I'm hanging out with people who disagree with me as friends.

Mm.

It changed my life.

Yeah, that's, that's something we spoke to, uh, Robert Putnam about on the show. Still one of my favorite human beings.

My colleague at the Kennedy School.

No, really?

Yeah, for sure.

Oh, man.

Yeah.

Bob Putnam is just, like-

we all find ways to come together, not around the politics, the politics starts to build itself-

Right

... in the most meaningful, beautiful ways.

Right.

Which is, which is counter to how people think, and it's, it's beautiful that you said it that way.

Yeah. If relationships are downstream from politics, you're gonna be miserable.

Yeah.

If, uh, if politics is downstream from relationships ... And it's funny because I've actually seen and participated in these studies where when you, when you bring people who are really diametrically opposed politically-

Mm

... together, like Bernie Sanders voters and Donald Trump voters, which actually they have kind of a lot in common.

Mm-hmm.

But anyway, they're, you ... And you, and you say, "Okay, you're gonna talk about politics." It's like daggers drawn, right? And yelling. But if you tell them, "You're gonna talk about politics, but first you gotta talk to each other about your kids."

Hm.

"You gotta tell each other about your kids." And they're laughing, and they're sharing stories about the people that they love the most. And if they have, both have teenagers, it's like you have a common enemy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's just, um ... And, and they, and then they talk about politics and it's like they, they don't hate each other. Why? Because there's no way to get to hate if you start with love. And that's the point. That's Bob Putnam's point.

I think we've placed such a ... I think from the conversation that we're having now and realizing what you're saying, we've placed such little value on community and the people that we have around us, right?

Yeah.

And we, we don't have a giving spirit when it comes to opinions and what the likes of other people are. For example, I hate pickleball, but there's these two friends of mine that I can't shake off-

Yeah

... that love pickleball.

Yeah.

But I've realized-

Relationship ender

Yes. But I've-

Is that you? Are you the pickleball guy?

[laughs]

[laughs]

I wasn't gonna name names and out people.

[laughs] One of them is at this table.

Eugene-

Mm-hmm

... looking at yourself, and then there's I self.

And then there's our father. Oh.

There's [laughs] there's suspenders.

Too soon.

So there's-

[laughs]

[laughs]

I didn't expect that from you.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Him.

That was a low blow. Low blow.

Tittle feet, yeah. [laughs]

[laughs] And there's I self Eugene, which is looking out, looking outward. And, and it's funny because, you know, the, the most popular class on most college campuses, you know what it is?

Hmm?

Astronomy 101.

Why?

Uh, that's exactly. Why? Finally, I ask a student, "Why do you, are you ..." 'Cause they're, like, English majors and communications majors. They're not astronomers. They're not physicists. And I say, "Why do you love this so much?" And this girl says, "Well, you know, I don't know. But on Thursday morning, I got my astronomy class at 9:00. And I go in, I'm super stressed out because, 'cause I had a big argument with my mom, and I think I'm gonna break up with my boyfriend because I got a B, which at Harvard is, like, the end of the world." And, and, and she says, "And I sit in that class for an hour and a half, and I come out and I'm a speck on a speck on a speck."

Hmm.

That's the I self. And we can actually-

That's the I self

... that's the I self. It's looking outward, looking outward, looking outward. That's the reason that trends-

Zooming out and out and out and out

Yeah. Standing in awe, watching people who are enjoying themselves-

Mm-hmm

... serving other people, worshiping God, being in nature, listening to the works of Johann Sebastian Bach. Whatever your thing is, that's the I self.

He-

Looking in the mirror, notifications on social media, pure torture

I had been there three times, to tell you the truth, Arthur. Three times, and I didn't realize that they had ginger ale.

ginger ale?

Love ginger ale.

Do you really?

Love it.

But you couldn't have seen it before because you were focused on-

I didn't see it

... how much you didn't like pickleball

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And yesterday I saw it.

Yeah, yeah. And you looked out and saw something beautiful, which is people that you loved doing something that they truly enjoyed- And love is the basis of happiness, and enjoyment is a macronutrient of happiness. And when you witness that, it changed your life. It changed your perspective. It wasn't about pickleball. It could've been anything.

So how do we find-

[laughs]

... this balance? Because, uh, uh-

Pickleball, by the way, was invented in my city where I grew up.

You grew up in Washington?

I grew up in Seattle, Washington.

Yeah. Wow, look at that.

Wow. Yeah, I grew up in Seattle, Washington.

It wasn't invented-

And when I was a kid-

It wasn't invented by old people, right?

... which was a little more like '70s and '80s, people were playing pickleball. It was, like, a local thing.

Yeah, yeah.

Now everybody's playing pickleball.

Yeah, now it's fuss as croquet.

Was it frowned upon then, or was it always a thing of cool people playing it?

It was... I don't know who played it.

Was it ever-

I mean, I just made it

no, no science-based research, nothing brain.

Mm-hmm.

I feel like I have noticed a decrease over the years in people, and maybe this is socioeconomic, may- whatever it is. But I've noticed a decrease, just from my perspective-

Uh-huh

... a disclaimer, disclaimer, in the amount of people who are with somebody who's, like, from a completely different discipline to them.

Right.

Do you know what I mean?

Right.

I feel like a, a previous generation was like, "My dad was a scientist. My mom was an artist." Uh, "My dad was a this. My mom was a that. My dad was a..."

Right.

And then, like, these days, people are like, "We're accountants. We're lawyers."

I know.

"We're-"

That's called homogamy. Homogamy is a really, is a very, is a, it's a, a phenomenon that's growing in prevalence where people-

Oh, so this is happening.

Oh, totally, totally, completely.

Okay. Okay, great.

And, and by the way, it's socioeconomic too-

Is it?

... which is a real problem.

Yeah, that's what I-

It's-

... that's what I feel like.

I mean, you're sorting. It's as, as sorted, as sortitive mating, where people are, are meeting. It's like th- they go to college, and they, they meet, they marry people from other fancy colleges that do the same thing that they do.

Right. Right.

And the, and, you know, that's just-

Wow

... I mean, uh, great, fall in love with whoever you want, right? But it's-

Yeah, but meet more people that you can fall in love with is what I think.

But there's another problem in here. There's another, there's an, like, a neurochemical problem that's-

of my favorite-

It's a-

... experiments-

It's great

... of all time.

So it's, uh, Eugene, so what, so Trevor and I will tell you about the T-shirt sniffing.

Yes, yes, please.

You don't, you wanna tell them?

No, you go. You go.

Please.

Because you know the, I'm sure you, you won't mess up the details.

Well-

I, I think I know all of them, but I, you can go e-

It's a mid-'90s thing.

Okay.

So, and what the, the, the, the researchers did was they, they, they used, they have an experiment with undergraduates, 'cause that, they'll do anything for 20 bucks. And, uh, and they had guys who would wear these T-shirts around for 48 hours.

But no deodorants and no cologne.

No de- nothing. They would do the thing. They play sports or walk around, just go to class, whatever.

Yeah.

Then they took their T-shirts off, and they put them in shoe boxes and drilled holes in the shoe boxes. And they gave them to random women who didn't know the guys necessarily.

Mm-hmm.

Who didn't, there was no identifying marks-

Mm-hmm

... on the boxes. And they would sniff the T-shirts through the holes. And then they had to rate them on the hotness of the guy. And it turns out that the hotness was inversely correlated to the similarity genetically of the men and the women.

No.

And the reason is because-

Wait, is that what it was?

Yeah. So and the more different somebody is from you genetically, the hotter you find their smell. Because the olfactory bulb in the brain picks up what's called the major histocompatibility complex-

Mm-hmm

... which is a measurement of how much genetic, uh, or, or how much, um, um, how, how resistant you're gonna be to diseases. You want people, somebody really different than you that you have kids with-

Not hot. Always let your beloved sh- pick your boy, pick your perfume.

Because you, you're trying to smell good for them, not for yourself.

Yeah, and but what you're doing is you're trying to smell good for them, so you pick something that smells delicious to you, and something that smells delicious to you, you've already, you've already picked that person on the basis of your olfactory bulb because that person is right for you, that a, a huge amount of attraction comes from smell. Like, I met my wife, and I'm like, "I don't know. It's like, it's like cantaloupe on a August afternoon."

Hey.

Mm, mm, mm, mm.

It's just like I can't get enough of it. I'm in 34 years in, I can't get enough of my wife's smell. Can't get enough of it

That's beautiful

Because it doesn't smell like me.

Yeah.

[laughs]

It's, it, it is the right ki-

Yeah.

Is it, is it true, and I, I, correct me if I'm misremembering this in the study, I also remembered that they, um, showed the people pictures of the guys.

Yeah.

So they give you the box.

Oh, yes.

You sniff.

Yes, yeah, mm-hmm.

And then you go rate from one to 10. But then they would also give them a picture-

Who do you think you picked?

... of guys-

Yeah

... and go rate them from one to 10, and the numbers that they chose were almost exactly like, so the guys they gave a seven was the picture they gave a seven.

Yeah.

The guys they gave a three was the picture they gave a three.

Right.

And people were like, "How is this?"

Yeah. So Love Is Blind is great as long as there's, like, holes in the wall that you-

That you can sniff through

... that you can sniff through. 'Cause you're, it's basically you're gonna, you're gonna get a lot of the same information.

fact that my impulse is toward individuation, toward radical individualism. I, I get it. I'm, I'm, I'm an American by birth. You guys are Americans by choice.

No, we're not. We're South Africans all the way, baby.

Yeah, baby.

Ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba.

I will notice that we're in New York.

Uh.

We're in New York. [laughs]

[laughs] New York doesn't count.

[laughs]

Uh.

Trevor Noah just said that New York's not, not part of America. Anyway, the, the-

Ah, New York said New York's not part of America.

[laughs]

You can't, that one you can't get me on. New York will protect me. They'll be like, "Yeah, what you gonna do about it, Brooks?"

No, no, no.

Yeah, no.

So, so, but this is important because, like-

Let's, let's dig deep into that

... like, a lot of people watching us are, are really, really individualistic, but the point is that you can't, you can't actually find love by becoming more and more isolated.

Yeah.

And that means that there are so many things that we have a tendency to do that we actually have to self-govern, that we actually have to manage. You have to walk back from the ... I mean, look, there's many tendencies that everybody knows about. I wanna, you know, go get drunk 'cause it's awesome.

Yeah.

But I'm not gonna do that because it's not the right thing to do.

But that's, like, an obvious one.

That's sort of obvious.

Yeah.

Not obvious to everybody.

Yeah, sort of obvious, you're right.

I mean, that's the pursuit of pleasure is really deleterious-

Yes

lunch or dinner, solved. You just follow the yellow signs, and suddenly you're on a flavor tour without leaving your post code.

Burritos?

E- exactly. Uh, if you want snacks, plantain tostones, uh, Peruvian potato chips, phyllo walking tamales. You're basically touring Latin America through crunch alone.

Tamales.

And don't forget dessert.

Mm.

Because every good trip ends with something sweet, like tres leches cake. Expand your horizons without expanding your luggage.

Tres leches.

If you need a weeknight shortcut, you could also head into aisles for 365 by Whole Foods Market. Rice, beans, chunky salsas, instant taco night.

Tacos.

Or check the frozen aisle for 365 brand taquitos at low prices. Dinner handled.

Taquitos.

What are you doing, dude? I'm trying to do an ad.

[laughs] I can speak Spanish now.

What do you mean you think you can s- you're just saying the words that I said.

I said everything in Spanish.

I mean, the words are already in Spanish.

I commit. Taquitos.

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Taquitos. [upbeat music]

There's something Eugene, uh, will often bring up that I think is important to get into, and it's how we talk about this, how we talk about these ideas whilst also acknowledging the positions that people are in their lives. You know? So I, I would love to know, when, when you're teaching people about happiness, is there a way to break it down according to how people are living their lives? And this is what I mean. You know, sometimes people go, "Hey, money's not everything," but it's often the people who have money who are saying it.

Right.

And I'm literally borrowing this from you.

Right.

You know, it's like, oh, but you have the money.

Right.

It's, it's a lot easier for someone to say it when they have the money.

Right.

And it's a lot easier-

Like, let me try. [laughs]

have a mule?"

I was picturing [laughs]

[laughs] Right, yeah.

I, you know, I'm picturing the same thing. I was just like [laughs]

Mule?

No, but I was just like, you're not wrong, though.

But the reason is because, you know, l- I, I don't wanna go l- live like Grandpa Noah, and neither do you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't wanna live like my grandfather and smoke a pack of Winstons a day. I don't wanna do that. But I do want my brain to work the way it's supposed to work.

Oh, solving for the brain.

And, and the truth of the matter is that we've hemispherically lateralized our brain. We've moved activity to the left hemisphere of the brain, which is all about what and how and efficiency and grinding and achievement and, and, and reels and apps and tech. In the right side of the brain, when you're bored and when you're in love and when you're suffering and when you see beauty, [laughs] that, that right side of the brain gives you mystery and meaning-

Mm

... and all the stuff that you actually can't quite articulate. So that's the, this is the big difference that I actually see. The unhappiest people that I meet today are all living on the left, and the people who are happiest are doing a bunch of old, weird things that are weird now, that would've been ordinary life before, that are helping them to be on the right side of their brains.

You know, also what you're explaining helps me rationalize my hate for conversations about AI.

Yeah. [laughs]

Because when, when I hear people who despise the thought of AI coming more and more into our lives, it makes me understand that they are more and more addicted to this technology

that they feel like AI's gonna take. AI won't replace you making breakfast-

No

... or taking a walk with-

No

... your loved one or with your child or writing a book.

No.

It has no interest in that. But if you have made technology your con- the cornerstone of your happiness and of your purpose and what keeps you busy and what keeps you entertained, of course you're gonna worry when someone or something comes and threatens that, right?

Of course. No, no, for sure. And you know, the way for people to understand this, for AI, can AI make me happy? What will you love, your cat, I know you won't, or a mechanical cat? A- um, and, and, and it's an, it's a question that answers itself. A mechanical cat can be really, really, really amazing, but you're always gonna know it's actually not alive.

Yeah.

So what does alive mean? I don't know. It's, uh, I can simulate it, I guess. No, no, no. You know what alive means. You know it.

Mm.

So that's why AI, by the way, w- can bring you greater happiness if you're solving how to and what technical problems, freeing up your time, and going, being with the people you love. But it will lower your happiness if you're using it for right brain functions by making it your therapist and your lover and your friend. I mean, it might fool you for a minute, but it won't fool your brain.

You'll-

You can't simulate meaning.

It can give you high resolution of what Central-

Yeah

... Park looks like, or you can be in Central Park.

Yeah. And that's a point. There's an important point. You can't ... So w- when I was a relative, much younger man, 25 years ago now, was the most popular movie of the year was The Matrix.

Oh, man.

Right? That's a great movie.

It's still my most popular movie.

It's a great movie.

Still my most popular movie.

It's 26 years ago now.

It's been that long?

Depending on when we air this, it's gonna be 27 years ago. [laughs]

[laughs]

[laughs]

So it was-

26 years ago?

brain the way it's supposed to, you're never actually bored moment to moment, but your life is unbelievably boring.

I always say it's the, um, elimination of friction that, that we take for granted. Like, as, as you increase convenience-

I've implemented that so many times-

The cost-

... after I've heard you say it

... remember when we spoke about-

Yeah, yeah.

Like, the cost of convenience-

Yeah

... is one that we haven't fully understood yet in life, and it's, it's actually interesting to see. I, I know I've spoken about this before, but go and look at the tech entrepreneurs who make technology in India-

Right

... all over Africa, Nigeria, Kenya, South Africa, you name it. Look at the tech that they make. They make tech that solves a problem that was otherwise unsolvable.

Mm.

You know what I mean? So they'll make an app that enables farmers to know when to plant their crops so that they have the highest yield, and they don't lose, you know, 40% of their crops or whatever. And then you look at the Western world, the US in particular, most of the apps, they don't solve a problem. They just-

You can find a closest pizza at 10:00 PM.

Exactly. Do you know what I mean? And, and I think of-

Meaningful.

No. [laughs]

[laughs]

And I think of, I think of what you're talking about now. What it's robbed us of is-

[laughs]

... the walk to go find the pizza place.

Yeah.

The conversation.

Yeah.

Remember asking somebody for directions?

Yeah.

You know how crazy those moments were? Or asking someone-

Yeah

... where, you, you're trying to get somewhere, and that might spark something. And then because you're in a place, then someone else talks to you, and then a thing happens. And where did you bump into each o- ... All of the most wonderful things, or many of the most wonderful things that'll happen to you in your life are inconvenience.

10 to 20 neuroscience articles a week, so I've had to really retrain it. And I'm not, I'm not an expert. I don't have a PhD in neuroscience. I mean, I, I talk to neuroscientists, and it's like, "Oh, man. This is so far above me." I, you know, I listen to, like, Huberman. He's truly is a great neuroscientist.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I don't hold a candle to that. But the more that I'm learning, the more excited that I actually get, and that's the, that's a, that's a learning pilgrimage that I get to be on for the rest of my life. It's just so exciting.

So discovering new parts of-

Pumping that limbic now

... how the, how the thing-

Oh, man.

[laughs]

... one thing connects to the other thing connects to the other thing.

What, so, so it's the same thing I could ask you, though. So you've been at the top of your profession. What are you doing to stay fresh and to learn? What is thrilling your heart these days that you're learning?

So now I'm trying to be a professional at living.

Tell me more

Sort of going back to what we spoke about earlier, um, I realized I'm very good at working.

Yeah.

I've worked my entire life that I've been-

Super hard

... that I've been allowed to work.

Right. Right.

You know? So I've, I've worked my entire life. I'm very good at working. I'm very good at adapting to that work, understanding it-

Mm

... and getting to a level of proficiency that allows-

Right

... me to earn a living in that work. What I've never been particularly good at is living.

Ah.

You know? So recently I went to my first wedding ever. At, at the age of 41 years old, I went to a wedding. I accepted-

And it wasn't yours, right?

No, it wasn't. [laughs]

[laughs]

I accepted an invitation, I attended-

[laughs]

Yeah, no, I got it

... choice.

I know.

And I always tell people, people are like, "Why did you become a comedian?" I'm like, "Because-"

Yeah

... "it's the only job they weren't interviewing for."

Yeah.

You know what I mean? I didn't need to come with qualifications. Otherwise I would've done other things.

No gates.

Yeah, really.

Yeah.

Um, the other thing was that I enjoyed it and I started-

Right

... developing, and I still work on a master's of it.

And you have a super high achievement orientation.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I think-

So I go like, "This is great. This is great. This is great"

... why? Because you are, your number one macronutrient is satisfaction.

Mm-hmm.

Is achievement that you get after struggle. Achievement.

Oh, it's the best.

Achievement. Satisfaction from achi-

It's the best.

So, so and you're, like, a virtuoso at satisfaction.

So what I love is-

Right

... I'm, I'm a big fan of luck theory.

Yeah.

Right? And when I discovered this, it changed my whole life. So there was a, a French philosopher who wrote a whole book about luck-

dumb luck, things that you cannot control.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

This you cannot blame anyone, you cannot thank, it's just happening.

Yes.

That's you. Country you're born in, people you're born to, lang- et cetera.

Family, yeah.

Then the next one is luck of motion.

Right.

Luck of motion is literally what it sounds like. You, once you start moving, luck can happen to you. You can't stub your toe without getting out of bed, but you also can't bump into somebody in the street without walking into the street.

Yeah.

Do you get what I'm saying?

Mm-hmm.

And that's luck. Oh, so luck, you know who I bumped into? Oh, my God, luck of... That's luck of motion.

Right.

Right? And then the third one is luck of awareness. This one is an interesting one to me, 'cause it's the ability to see and notice the ginger ale-

Mm-hmm

... at the pickleball place.

Yeah.

I'm so lucky there's ginger ale here. No, you were aware that there was ginger ale, and so you became lucky.

Mm-hmm.

So there are two people walking-

Right

... down the street. There's $100 on the ground. The one person is aware that there's $100, the other one isn't. One person says, "I'm so lucky I found $100." The other person says, "Oh, I'm unlucky. I've never picked up, I've never found money."

Mm.

You weren't aware that there was money.

You weren't paying attention.

Exactly.

Mm-hmm.

And that applies to everything. It applies to love.

Right.

works. So I've ... You and I were working together, and we were talking about this every week.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Right? That's okay. We gotta have a p- an enjoyment plan. We're gonna have a strategic plan for enjoyment, because we need to reframe it, kinda like you do with getting good at this whole thing.

It's so funny you say this, 'cause I never ... You remember, I never learned it. I was talking to my mom about this the other day, and I, I said to her, 'cause my mom is, like, the ultimate worker.

Yeah.

And I said, "Mom, have you noticed that you work yourself to death, then you rest, but you don't rest."

Right.

"You're just exhausted."

Right.

And she was like, "Yeah, how else could I be?" And I was like, "Well, I think you and I both could practice-"

A little bit more

... enjoying-

Mm-hmm

... before we're exhausted. And she was like, "You do it and let me know how it goes, and, if it's good, I'll join you."

Yeah.

And so I'm on that journey.

Yeah.

And she's not against it. She's just like, "Hey, kid." She's like, "Look, man, the life I lived, I didn't have sort of the luxuries you had, so work hard and I'll ... I'm, I'm open to it, but, but so carry on."

Yeah, so, so-

So you work on learning to enjoy.

Yeah, so let me make a suggestion.