What Now? With Trevor NoahBernie Sanders: Who Owns America? Bernie Says the Quiet Part Out Loud
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
85 min read · 16,854 words- 0:00 – 4:03
Intro
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He served four terms as mayor of Burlington, Vermont, eight terms in the US House, and was elected to the Senate in 2006.
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This photo of a young Bernie Sanders being arrested in 1963 on the South Side of Chicago in the midst of the civil rights movement.
- SPSpeaker
I'm very proud of the fact that I'm the longest serving independent in the history of the United States. I caucus with the Democrats and always have. Some people would be like, "Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat," but he's speaking for the progressive wing of the party right now. Billionaires should not be able to buy elections. And by the way, that's not just a progressive perspective. Conservatives understand that, too.
- SPSpeaker
Bernie Sanders, drawing crowds of tens of thousands in his full-throated fight against oligarchy. Trying to help Democrats find their footing among working class Americans and reclaim power next November. [upbeat music]
- TNTrevor Noah
This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. [upbeat music]
- SPSpeaker
Baz.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Take a look and see if my wife is gonna yell at me.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
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For being totally disheveled.
- TNTrevor Noah
Eh, that's funny.
- SPSpeaker
I want to be half as good looking as Trevor here. I don't want him-
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... dominate the whole thing.
- TNTrevor Noah
They account for age. It's like golf. We have a handicap. How long have you been in town?
- SPSpeaker
Oh, about a half hour.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, wow. Okay. How long are you staying in town?
- SPSpeaker
Oh, about a day.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay. And then-
- SPSpeaker
We're doing a, an event with, uh, Mamdani tomorrow night.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, that's exciting. Oh, that's really exciting.
- SPSpeaker
And presumably we're doing a parade in the morning if it doesn't rain, so we'll see.
- TNTrevor Noah
It said it was gonna rain today and then it didn't, so I, I hope that's a good sign.
- SPSpeaker
Good.
- TNTrevor Noah
I mean, like every day it's switching around, you know.
- SPSpeaker
So you do these things, what, five days a week? Uh-
- TNTrevor Noah
I try and do as many as I can when we can, you know. So it depends on when people are around, when we can-
- SPSpeaker
Right
- TNTrevor Noah
... you know?
- SPSpeaker
Right. So you kind of enjoy this stuff?
- 4:03 – 6:40
“The system is broken” (and why that half-truth works)
- TNTrevor Noah
How far do you think America is off from the promise it's given to its people?
- SPSpeaker
Uh, I think you have a president who is way, way off, who is, in my view, the most dangerous president in American history, taking us in the wrong direction in every area. On the other hand, I think you got a whole lot of people, uh, who would love to see a very, very different America than we have today. So Trump is... What Trump is saying, and this is, I think, an important political point, he says the system is broken.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And you know what? He's right. The system is broken. Problem is, his solutions will make a bad situation worse. And from a political point of view, the Democrats say, "Well, you know, we've got to tinker around the edges on this, do a little bit over here, but basically we're doing okay."
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
That's wrong. So I think you have millions of people who understand that in the richest country in the history of the world, we should be doing a hell of a lot better than we are doing today.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know, it's interesting you, you just said that because I, I was talking to the, to the team and, you know, my friend and I were walking, chatting about this episode, and one of the things that struck us was exactly what you said, is Trump always identifies that there is a problem, right? His solutions oftentimes seem absurd, and they are, but he identifies that there is a problem.
- SPSpeaker
That's exactly right, and not only him. If you talk to his people in education, they say the system is broken. You talk to people in, who work on healthcare, they say the system is broken. So they tap the anger and the frustration. People say, "Yeah, the system is broken."
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Then you hear their solutions. Half the time they're totally crazy and will make the situation worse. But it is important, and what I try to do in the book is to lay it on the table. What the hell is going on in America right now? Well, you tell me. Is the system working?
- TNTrevor Noah
Why, why do you think you're comfortable doing that when, when so many of your, you know, fellow senators and congresspeople aren't? Because I, I think of AOC. I don't know if you ever saw, um, this was right after the election, AOC did a poll, I think it was on Instagram.
- SPSpeaker
Yep.
- TNTrevor Noah
And she said, "How many of you voted for me and voted for Donald Trump?"
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- TNTrevor Noah
Which seemed crazy.
- SPSpeaker
No, it did not seem crazy.
- TNTrevor Noah
And a lot of people said, "I voted for you, and I voted for Donald Trump." And the main thing they said was, "I voted for both of you because although you're very different, you both acknowledge that this thing doesn't work."
- SPSpeaker
That's exactly right, and the people are right.
- 6:40 – 10:10
One billionaire vs. the bottom 52%
- SPSpeaker
Look, I mean, I think one of the things I try to do in the book is to raise issues that you're not gonna see on corporate media, and you're certainly not gonna hear discussed very much in that US House or US Senate. Politicians don't talk about it. And that is, okay, who has the wealth and who has the power? Simple question, right?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Do you ever talk of it? Do we ever hear much discussion about it? We don't. But the reality is that today in America, and we spend a lot of time talking about this in the book, is we have more income and wealth inequality than we've ever had in the history of the United States, okay? Now, you tell me if it's not crazy. I think it's crazy that you have one guy, Elon Musk, owning more wealth than the bottom 52% of American households.
- TNTrevor Noah
Bottom 52%?
- SPSpeaker
Yes. Is that insane? I think it is. But here's another point. Who determines what we should get outraged about? All right? So some kid with a gun walks into a shop down here and shoots somebody, we're all outraged, and we should be, okay? Crime is a serious problem. But if the heads of the fossil fuel industry lie to us day after day and are jeopardizing the well-being of billions of people on this planet, should we get outraged, or should we give them an award for being great humanitarians? In other words, you understand what I'm saying.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, no, I get exactly what you're saying.
- SPSpeaker
They co- they control the culture-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
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... what we're supposed to respond to. So to me, you lay it right on the table. It is insane that one person owns more wealth than the bottom 52%. Top 1% owns more wealth than the bottom 93%. CEOs make 350 times what their workers make. So you just put that on the table. Should we be discussing that day in and day out? I think we should.
- TNTrevor Noah
Some people say we're going after the wrong people, though. You know, I've, I've heard so many people when I have these conversations with them, they go, "Why are you getting angry that Elon made money? I mean, Elon's made electric cars, and Elon-"
- SPSpeaker
That's right
- TNTrevor Noah
... has made this fantastic space internet-
- SPSpeaker
That's right
- TNTrevor Noah
... and Elon has made-
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Right
- TNTrevor Noah
... so much money for the American public, and Elon hires people, and Elon has factories, and why are you hating on him, Bernie?"
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You got it.
- TNTrevor Noah
"Why are you hating on the guy-
- SPSpeaker
Good
- TNTrevor Noah
... who's bringing ingenuity and he's bringing mon- like, like why? He's making money."
- SPSpeaker
All right, now you're into-- Good. That is exactly right, and millions of people share that view. So should we be, quote-unquote, "punishing" Elon? No. But should we be having a living in a society which allows so few to have so much wealth and so much power? And it gets to a whole other issue, which we try to raise in, in the book.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
All right. Everybody wants to make money, right? You want to make money. I want to make... Everybody wants to live comfortably. Elon Musk wants to live comfortably. Is enough enough? When is enough enough? How much do you need? And how far are you willing to go to, A, destroy the environment, all right, to get more, or to do things like recently, you know, Trump's big, beautiful bill. A trillion dollars in tax breaks to the 1%, massive cuts to Medicaid, nutrition, and education, and these guys will go further. In other words, they do not look at economics as something, "Well, you know, I've made it. I got $3 billion, man. I couldn't spend that in 1,000 years. How lucky am I?" It's not what they think. They want more and more and more. More wealth and more power, and that has
- 10:10 – 17:13
Oligarchy explained: ownership, media, elections
- SPSpeaker
got to be stopped.
- TNTrevor Noah
When you look at the way the system is built right now, you know, I, I know it's easy for a lot of people to say, um, "We hate oligarchs," and then other people say, "Oh, um, America doesn't have oligarchs." They go, "America has a democracy, and America just has some very rich people who have made some important things that make the world go round. So we shouldn't call them oligarchs. We should call them businesspeople, and that's what America's founded on. It's founded on business." How do you respond when somebody says, "Well, Bernie, you're just trying to interrupt a very natural thing that is capitalism, and it's the greatest system in the world"?
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Well, you're in a hyper-capitalist situation. Uh, when we talk about oligarch, oligarchy, you're talking about a small number of people with incredible wealth and power.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
All right, so what is their power about? Their power is not only that they control, to a significant degree, the entire economy. So today, not only do you have more income and wealth inequality than we've ever had, you have more concentration of ownership, okay? That means fewer and fewer large corporations, uh, own and control what is produced, what their workers make, what you pay at the grocery store.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Okay. And then on top of that, these corporations themselves are owned by huge Wall Street firms. So you have companies like BlackRock, uh, Vanguard, State Street. These three corporations con- combined are, are the dominant stockholders in 95% of American corporations. Got that? So it's a-
- TNTrevor Noah
They're the dominant?
- SPSpeaker
Yes. Add the three together. You look up, go to Google, look up any corporation you want to, almost any. You will find Vanguard, State Street, BlackRock, major stockholders. I know. You're, you're looking at me in a quizzical way here. It's true. Check it out. So what it is un- Here, give you an example. I, uh, was the chairman of the Health, Education, Labor, and Pension Committee. Now I'm the ranking member. So we hear from and reach out to workers all over this country who are involved in labor struggles, okay?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
They call, "Bernie, we're on strike. Can you give us support?" So we get on the phone and we call up the guy who's nominally the head of the company. He says, "You're talking to the wrong guy, Bernie. Somebody else owns us." And you find that somebody else owns somebody else. That's what a conglomerate is about. Somebody owns something, but it's owned several times over.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
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All right? It's a relatively small number of people who control the economy. That's called oligarchy, but it's not just that. How do you get the information? Uh, you're in the information business, right? Or the entertainment bus- That's what you do for a living, correct?
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
So who owns the media? You tell me.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's a few companies now.
- SPSpeaker
That's right.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, and everything's getting consolidated. It's becoming smaller and smaller, and it's fewer and fewer people.
- SPSpeaker
You got it.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
All right. So what my understanding is, you have six large, um, international conglomerates, media conglomerates, that control about 90% of what the American people see, hear, and read. All right, so look, take a look. Talk about oligarchy. Mr. Musk, is that all he does is make electric vehicles? Not quite. He owns Twitter, right?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, what about Mr. Bezos? Well, he owns The Washington Post, which is a very influential newspaper, and he owns Twitch. Well, what about the Ellison family? Well, they just bought Paramount, which happens to own CBS-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... Movie. All right? And then you got, uh, Mr. Zuckerberg, of course, who owns Meta, which controls Facebook and Instagram. So you got four of the wealthiest guys in America owning s- just those, not to mention Rupert Murdoch, obviously, from, owns Fox, The Wall Street Journal, the New York Post, right-wing newspapers all over the world. You check out who owns newspapers in the United States, billionaires by and large. So you add up income and wealth inequality, concentration of ownership, control over the media, and let me throw out another one. We talked about democracy. Well, Trevor, do we live in a democracy?
- TNTrevor Noah
Uh, people would say yes.
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And the answer is yes and no. We have elections, right? So who plays the influential role in elections? All right, let's go back just to the last election. Mr. Musk, the wealthiest guy on Earth, spent $270 million to help elect Donald Trump, right? 270 million, that's true.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And his reward, these guys don't make investments without getting something in return.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- 17:13 – 22:02
50 years of productivity, lower real wages
- TNTrevor Noah
seem to match up. It seems like they-
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Oh, let's not, Trevor, let's not be naive. No. I don't think anyone in America believes that Democrats are on the side of working class people.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
I mean, there's some rhetoric occasionally, but most working people don't know it, and in fact, the dynamics of American politics is over the last 40 or 50 years, the Democratic Party, which once was the party of the American working class, is now, you know, a, a corporate party, which has done, in fairness, and I always say this, we have made significant advances in civil rights, in women's rights, in gay rights, and at least in environmental consciousness. Democrats deserve a lot of credit for that. But in terms of representing the needs of the working class, if they represented the needs of the working class, you would not have this massive income and wealth inequality. And equally important, today, you know, I talked about the rich getting richer and all that stuff.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
What's going on for the work- You tell me. What's going on for the working class in America today? How they doing?
- TNTrevor Noah
Earning less than ever before
- SPSpeaker
That's right
- TNTrevor Noah
Incomes not matching up with inflation
- SPSpeaker
You got it
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
So here's a startling fact, we put it in the book. And that is over the last 50 or so years, real inflation accounted for wages, weekly, weekly wages-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... for the average American worker, is lower today than it was 50 years ago
- TNTrevor Noah
Lower today-
- SPSpeaker
Lower
- TNTrevor Noah
... than it was 50-
- SPSpeaker
A few dollars lower
- TNTrevor Noah
... years ago, if you account for-
- SPSpeaker
Now, think about the explosion in technology, right? Workers are far more productive. They're producing a lot more
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
And yet during that entire period, despite increases in worker productivity, real inflation account of wages are lower. Meanwhile, during that same period, there was a $75 trillion transfer of wealth that went from the bottom 90% to the top 1%. So you add all of that stuff up, it, it's not hard to ... You know, I think people instinctively understand it. The very rich are doing phenomenally well. Massive transfer of wealth. Working families are struggle- 60% of people in America today live paycheck to paycheck. We have the highest rate of childhood poverty of almost any major country on Earth, highest rate of senior poverty of almost any major country on Earth. That is where we are as a nation today.
- TNTrevor Noah
In the book, you, you tell a story about being at Trump's inauguration
- SPSpeaker
Ugh
- TNTrevor Noah
And you-
- SPSpeaker
No, you're reminding me of that. Right.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs] You wrote it in the book.
- SPSpeaker
I know. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs] And you talk about looking around at, at the people who are gathered there, and obviously there's everyone, you know, who works in the government, senators, et cetera. But you notice there's an outsized collection of the richest people in the world. Like, the way you describe it, it sounds less like an inaugurate- inauguration and more like a, like a board meeting, you know? Like a-
- SPSpeaker
That's true
- 22:02 – 23:50
AI super PACs: “We’ll destroy you before you run”
- SPSpeaker
clear.
- TNTrevor Noah
So when, when you're in Washington, DC, and you're s- you're surrounded by all of these people, I, I always wonder sort of, like, what the inner conversations are. Because I, I read, I read articles, and obviously, you know, I'm on the outside, and so I'm trying to understand what's happening. And I remember one of the articles I read that really got me was it was talking about the upcoming midterms, and then thinking forward to the next election. And I'm, I'm sure you've seen this, but it was, um, it was AI-related, uh, tech investors and, you know, the likes of Zuckerberg and you name it.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
And they're putting together these massive, massive super PACs.
- SPSpeaker
Yes
- TNTrevor Noah
And their only goal is to go after politicians who suggest any type of regulations against AI, and they go, "We're gonna destroy you before you get in." And then some politicians have commented either on or off the record saying, "Well, I don't wanna cross them because I, I don't think this AI thing is that big a deal in what I'm doing anyway, so I'm, I'm just not gonna cross them." So-
- SPSpeaker
That's such a ... That's true. But that's what I'm talking about. So do we live in a democracy? Yeah. But if you vote away, if I'm a crypto guy, or I'm an AI guy, or I'm a fossil fuel guy, you can run for office, but I'm gonna put huge amounts of money in a super PAC as a result of this disastrous Citizens United Supreme Court decision-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... and I'm gonna beat you. Now, will I beat you every single time? No. But you know what? If I put tens and tens of millions of dollars into your opponent, Trevor, I will beat you most of the time. And that's, that's called a corrupt political system, and that's what we're living in.
- TNTrevor Noah
So when, where do we begin ... You know, y- in the book, you, you, you lay out all these facts, and I want, like, some ... When I was reading through some of the numbers, I was like, Bernie, this is, this is insane. The numbers are so overwhelming.
- SPSpeaker
Yes, they are
- TNTrevor Noah
It's, it's, it's
- 23:50 – 36:04
50,000 volunteers vs. billionaire money (Mamdani)
- TNTrevor Noah
impossible. It, it just seems like this monumental task. And, and then you talk about, which I think is important, all the people who are coming out to support.
- SPSpeaker
Right, right
- TNTrevor Noah
You know, you've got 30,000 people coming to your rallies at a time when the media tells people that no one wants to be engaged in politics.
- SPSpeaker
You got it
- TNTrevor Noah
The media says no one cares about politics anymore. No one wants to read it.
- SPSpeaker
That's right
- TNTrevor Noah
But they're coming out to your rallies. You know, people are showing up. People are showing up for Mamdani. People are showing up for, for, for certain politicians who are saying a certain thing. And I, I, I wonder what the first steps are. Like, maybe that's what we should be talking about is, you know, you go through the book- And I love how you take us through some of the historical fights, for instance-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... that once seemed unwinnable.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
If, if you were to start with one thing today, where do you think we start? W- because it seems like a cycle right now. It's like they, they have the money so they can put the ads out. The ads get their people in. When their people are in, they make the laws to favor them. So then how do you, how do you break it? Because it seems like a chicken and the egg cycle.
- SPSpeaker
Look, I wish I could tell you there was a magical solution, but you mention, you know, the Mamdani campaign is a very good example.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
'Cause it seems to me like a microcosm of what we're looking at. Give you an example. So this guy, who nobody ever heard of, starts off with 1% of the polls right here in New York City, 2%.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
He suddenly starts raising issues that are on everyone's mind. Nobody can afford housing in New York City, right? Working class people can't do that. Transportation is expensive. Childcare is off the charts. Uh, working class people have a hard time getting decent quality food for their kids at a price they can pay, right?
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Among other issues. He starts raising these issues, gets more and more support. Comes into the primary. He generates, as I understand it, he gets 50,000 volunteers. 50,000 volunteers. That is insane. Totally insane. All right? So to everybody's shock and surprise, he beats a former governor, right? Mr. Cuomo.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- SPSpeaker
Everyone. Beats a... All right. You would think, now in terms of politics, let's just talk about politics, Democratic Party with leadership would say, "Whoa. Here we are. Our people are demoralized. Trump was elected. We got a young guy, a smart guy. He has 50,000 volunteers, raising small dollar donors. This could not be better. Oh, my God. We're off and running. There's a revolution."
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
"Thank God." Well, not quite. The four major Democratic leaders, uh, in the state of Vermont as of today, no one's supporting him. Now, doesn't that sound a little bit weird when the Democratic Party, according to the polls today, is at the lowest point that it's been in decades, one candidate generates enormous enthusiasm, pulls off a major upset, but they don't support him? Why is that? And what does this have to do with oligarchy? Meanwhile, at the same time, you have people, and this is, you know, this to me is kind of new. Money always played a role in politics, no question, but you got people like, what's it, Bill Ackman, is that his name? Guy-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
He comes out there, he says, "We are, we are oligarchs. We are billionaires, and we are now gonna spend as much money as it takes to defeat Mr. Mamdani." Really? That's called democracy? I mean, and they're out in the open about it. It's not, it's not like he's putting money underneath the table.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
They're on front pages of the news. We will... So who the hell is, who runs the city? And then what you're really looking at, and I'm watching, I don't want to take this too far a stretch, you got a president of the United States, you know, he gets into sometimes squabbles with Mr. Putin. But the idea of, you know, in Russia, there are elections, you know that? Putin always gets 80, 90% of the vote.
- TNTrevor Noah
He does very well.
- SPSpeaker
Only his people can run for office. So Saudi Arabia, where you will remember Trump made his very first trip, that's where he went, to Qatar-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... Saudi Arabia, UAE. These are zillionaires, I mean, some of the wealthiest people in the world, running autocratic governments. So what is true, in my view, is many of the, coming back here to the United States, many of these big tech guys, they don't believe in democracy. I mean, read what they say. It's not just that they want to even support this or that opponent. At the end of the day, they think democracy is an impediment to their God-given right to make as much money as, as they, as they want.
- 36:04 – 38:06
Healthcare in the polls vs the votes
- TNTrevor Noah
but it, it seems like they understand it. When you talk to Democrats who are establishment and they, they go, "This is the way it is," w- is there anything you say to them that, that, that, that convinces them? Is there any moment where you've seen them go, "Ah, Bernie, you're right"?
- SPSpeaker
Well, you do see that actually. The, you know, uh, you know, polling f- They're not oblivious to polls, and what polls show is that people like myself, A, are popular, but more importantly, that the ideas that we are talking about resonate extraordinarily strongly among working people. So I ask you, the United States, the richest country on earth, is the only major country not to guarantee healthcare to all people. How many Democrats do you think are talking about the need for Medicare for All? Well, I introduced the bill in the Senate. We got, I think, 15 co-sponsors out of-
- TNTrevor Noah
15
- SPSpeaker
... out of 47. Why would you not be prepared to take on the insurance companies and move to a cost-effective, quality healthcare system guaranteeing healthcare to all people? Well, it's the power of the insurance companies. For years, you know, we've been fighting to lower the outrageous cost of prescription drugs. You know what the American people, they hate the drug companies probably more than anything in the world. They really do. They're getting ripped off every day. They know it. Have the Democrats... They've done a little bit, in fairness, but have they gone anywhere near as far as they should? Here's something, and I'm talking about basic necessities like healthcare, uh, medicine. What about education? Psychologists tell us that zero through four are the most significant years of human development-
- TNTrevor Noah
Right
- SPSpeaker
... intellectually and emotionally.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
In the richest country on earth, don't you think we would have a, the best childcare system in the world?
- TNTrevor Noah
You'd hope so.
- SPSpeaker
Well, you tell me. I don't know if you have any kids or not, but-
- TNTrevor Noah
No, I don't-
- SPSpeaker
Um-
- TNTrevor Noah
... but I, I have friends who do, and I'll, I mean, it's pretty obvious that it's not.
- SPSpeaker
It's not.
- TNTrevor Noah
Far from it.
- SPSpeaker
It's outrageously expensive.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And the, and the workers themselves get paid,
- 38:06 – 41:04
When college was tuition-free (yes, really)
- SPSpeaker
you know, starvation wages. Here's something that's, again, quite remarkable in, in showing the direction in which the country is going. You ask me, you know, because I am gonna be 84, you know, what the world, the changes that I've seen in my life.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
When I was a kid, a young man, graduated James Madison High School here in Brooklyn, New York, and I went my first year of college to Brooklyn College. Do you know what tuition was back then?
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, I feel like you're gonna shock me.
- SPSpeaker
I'm not gonna shock you. It was, if it wasn't then, it was a few years before, it was tuition-free.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, that shocked me.
- SPSpeaker
Does it shock you really?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, that really shocks me. I thought you were gonna say, like, maybe a few thousand dollars or something.
- SPSpeaker
No. City University of New York.
- TNTrevor Noah
You just said tuition was free, Bernie.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, that shocked me.
- SPSpeaker
That's what I just said. Yes. Are you shocked by that?
- TNTrevor Noah
That's, that's shock- that's shocking to me, that it was free?
- SPSpeaker
Free.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
University of California, one of the great university systems in the world.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. That's shocking to me.
- SPSpeaker
That was s- I don't know the exact year, 60 years ago, 70 years ago. It was tuition-free. Yeah, you're looking at me like I'm, I'm-
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
You're, you're in a state of shock here, right? It wa- because at that point, you know, people said, "Okay, you know, you're working class kids. We want them to get the best education they can. We're a growing nation. We need, you know, the best educated workforce. Sure. No big deal. That's what we're gonna have." In fact, City College, before it was the City University, was tuition-free for a very, very long time, and it was one of the great universities in the world.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- SPSpeaker
It wasn't some dumpy place. In Vermont, we had state colleges that if you were a Vermonter, tuition-free, and again, all over the country. So we have regressed in saying that if, you know, some 19-year-old kid goes to college today, doesn't have many money, leaves school, $50,000, $70,000 in debt. Go to medical school, come out five hundred thousand dollars in debt. All right. All that I'm saying here is that the entire system, broadly defined, economic and political, is working phenomenally well for the people on top. It is screwing working class families who are struggling, and in many ways, are in desperate shape.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, and what's, what's sad about that is all of the information that comes out, as you said, is oftentimes coming out from media that's attached to those people.
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- TNTrevor Noah
So they'll say the stock market is up.
- SPSpeaker
That's right.
- TNTrevor Noah
They'll say GDP is better than ever before. They'll say it's up and to the right. And the weirdest thing for me, for people to understand, and I mean, it took me a while. It's not like I studied economics. I had to go and read and learn, was to realize GDP is one of the strangest measures of how well a place is doing, because we can be in this room right now. If Elon Musk walks in, the GDP of this room-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
... is doing insanely well.
- 41:04 – 57:44
Demagoguery 101: blame the powerless
- TNTrevor Noah
goes down.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
And I think that's what, that's what a lot of people don't seem to understand, and, and, and I wonder, like, I wonder if, if that is part of the problem, is people are being sold the success of the idea of an American corporation or company as if it's their own, but it's not really attached to them.
- SPSpeaker
The answer is yes and no. I think that's part of it. Oh, we all can... You work hard, you're gonna make the American dream someday.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
You'll become a billionaire as well. I think people believe that less now than they used to, but here's what I think Trumpism does very well from their perspective. Trump is a demagogue. And what does that mean? It means that he is smart enough, and he is nobody's fool, to recognize that people are hurting, all right? That the system is not working.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
So if you're in the average person, and you can't afford to pay your rent or send your kid to college, and you're hurting, you want an explanation. Why is that, right? It's kind of natural. You want to... Why is the world the way it is?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
I think everybody really searches for an answer. Trump has an answer, and his answer as a demagogue is the answer that demagogues have always given, and that is you place the blame- On powerless minorities, right? In the '30s in Germany, it was the Jews were the cause of mass unemployment and so forth and so on. Gypsies. In America, there were problems at our schools, it was the gay people who were the problems, uh, caused the problems. Uh, you know, for many years in this country, you know, if you're a white working-class person, well, the reason you're not making more money is the Blacks taking your job.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Nothing to do about it.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. In the UK, they blamed people from, you know, they were like, "Oh, it's the Polish."
- SPSpeaker
Pakistan.
- TNTrevor Noah
And they said then it's Pakistan.
- SPSpeaker
Pakistan.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's India. And it's always moved a generation.
- SPSpeaker
Exactly.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
You pick the Jews. I mean, they must sit around and say, "Who do we blame today?"
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And it works because people are hurting, and then you have the entire media structure saying, "Well, it's the fault of the undocumented people." In this country, it's the undocumented now. "So we're gonna throw them all out, and we're gonna make life miserable for them." All right, thank God, my life is gonna improve. That is, that is what oligar- that is what not only oligarchy is, but it's what, uh, demagogues do, and that is Trumpism in spades. That's what he's doing. So he's, what he's doing, rather than ... I was at his State, I wasn't only at his inauguration, I was at his State of the Union speech. Guy gets up there, gives one of the longest State of the Union speeches, uh, in history. Did he have one word to say about the healthcare crisis in America? Mm, no. Did he have one word to say about the housing crisis in America? Mm, no. One word to say about the high cost of prescription drugs? No. One word to say about how college is unaffordable? No. What did he spend his time thinking about? He spent probably 10 minutes on blaming, o- on describing how a trans ... So whether this is true or not, who the hell knows, but his description was a transgender athlete, a, i- in a volleyball game smashed a ball into a young woman's face and hurt her. We heard that, right? One of the great crises is what happened on a volleyball court to one young woman, okay? And the rest was terrible crimes, and they were committed by undocumented people against young women, okay? Because we know, and then the verbiage starts, they're not really human.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Trevor, they're really not. They are, they are subhuman people. I mean, and it's almost the language. They're poisoning, quote, unquote, "poisoning the blood of America." These are people who don't share human values. They're savages, I think is the word described.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Well, that terminology sound familiar? We've heard it before.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
All right. When you demonize a person and you make that person less than human, there's no telling me what you could do to that person. And then that is, if you go after those people, that is improving life for everybody else. So that's the big lie. That's what demagoguery is about. That's the move to authoritarianism, and that is what I stay up nights worrying about.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know, when I, when I was reading through the book, one of the things I, I hope, I hope really gets to people is, is something that oftentimes isn't, isn't front page because it's boring, and yet it's front page in everybody's lives, and it's how the consolidation of power comes to cost you at home in your life, you know? And you, you talk through, like food for instance, in America, and how all the meat is basically, what, four companies?
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- 57:44 – 1:02:04
Worker-owned companies that actually work
- SPSpeaker
$80,000 in debt. So I think, uh, without even getting into the essence of what socialism is, means, which to me means democracy, by the way. Not just the right to vote every two or four years, but having a say on the job.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Wouldn't life be a lot better if you weren't just a cog in the machine? And we're seeing, by the way, one of the nice things we are seeing in America, in Vermont, pretty strong about worker-owned companies, where workers themselves own the companies, select their own leadership. And what the, all of the studies show is that people feel much better about their job. You know, the absenteeism is less, productivity is up. People are, "Good, it's our company. Pretty good."
- TNTrevor Noah
Could, could there, could there ever be laws written to sort of entrench those types of ideas? And, and I know even saying that right now sounds crazy to most people, but, but the other day I was thinking about, I was thinking about sports, and I was going, I know you're an avid basketball player, you know.
- SPSpeaker
Avid might be too strong, but I played a lot of basketball, yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
I've seen you shoot, Bernie.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
I've seen you shoot.
- SPSpeaker
Okay.
- TNTrevor Noah
You, you, you drain them. Like, I remember when it was in the primaries, you would go to the gyms beforehand.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I did, yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
And you were just like, yeah. I, I found myself thinking about how sports, and everyone who watches sports seems to understand in a basic concept of fairness, and this is what I mean. Shaquille O'Neal comes into the NBA. The man is completely dominant. You throw him the ball, he puts it in the hoop. You throw him the ball, he puts it in the hoop. You can't do anything to him. He stands under that rim, and he puts the ball in the hoop. And then they change the rules of the game. They say, "You know what? You can't stand in the paint in this little section for longer than," what is it? Three seconds, I think it is.
- SPSpeaker
I think it is, yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. And they go, "You have to keep moving." Why? Because otherwise, Shaq can just do this forever, and it's not fair.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- TNTrevor Noah
And, and I look at this in every sport. In fact, golf, you know, golf might be my favorite sport. Not, I don't play it. I don't like playing it. But I love the rules of golf because golf, contrary to who people ... Like, the people who play it, is one of the most egalitarian, fair sports that has ever been created. It's, it's the only sport where you can come in as a terrible golfer, and you can beat the best golfer in the world because the handicap system acknowledges that your position coming into the game should be accounted for in order to get you to a level playing field as somebody else. Like, that always blows my mind. Do you know what I mean?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
And I, I, I wonder if politics can get to that place. Is, is it, is it a crazy thought that I have-
- SPSpeaker
No, it is not a crazy-
- TNTrevor Noah
... that you could write laws that say people should own a piece of companies if they work in it or ...
- SPSpeaker
Look, it is not a crazy idea, and there are countries around the world to some degree already doing that. Look, is it a crazy id- 1948, right? A few years ago. In Great Britain, a labor government said, healthcare, 1948, healthcare is a human right. I don't care if you're rich, you're poor, you're young or old.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hm.
- SPSpeaker
You go to the doctor, you don't take out your wallet. In the early '70s, Canada said the same thing. All over the world. That could be a law signed tomorrow by the president of the United ... And think, Trevor, for a moment what that would mean. We got a half a million people go bankrupt every year because of medical bills. People don't die bec- people die because they don't get to a doctor on time.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Do you know how transformative that would mean if people go to the doctor when they wanted to, if they weren't worried about going to a hospital and not coming out bankrupt? A lot of people have cancer, getting cancer treatment today, they're gonna go bankrupt. Do you know that? That's a fact.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Okay. What would that mean? If we made sure that every parent in America knew that his or her kids would be able to get all the education they want at great schools, what would that mean?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Just do the... Forget anything else. Not to mention having wages which were livable. Is this a radical idea? It is not a radical idea. Okay? But what the system tells you, and that's what drives me crazy, and I try to get into it in the book. The system tells you this is communist. This is, I mean, you got, you know, this is i- impossible to-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- 1:02:04 – 1:12:25
Public funding = salary cap for politics
- TNTrevor Noah
there, or is it-
- SPSpeaker
No, it's not. It, it, it may well happen. Um, the two major parties are deeply, deeply flawed and in many ways out of touch with ordinary people. Republican Party has become right-wing extremist. Democratic Party is corporatist, tinkering around the edges, and there's a hunger for real change. If the Democratic Party can't deliver, I think there is a real possibility that there will be a third party. Problem is that in this country, to start a third party, being on the ballot in 50 states, to overcome all of the regulations, anti-third party efforts in, in states is very difficult, but it's certainly a possibility.
- TNTrevor Noah
You don't think it's impossible? And what, what-
- SPSpeaker
It's a, it, no, it is not impossible by any means. It could happen. It could happen.
- TNTrevor Noah
So when you look at the Democratic Party today, what would you change if you could change something tomorrow? What, what would you say to all of your, your colleagues who have been with you and where they say, "Bernie, we are on your side, but we just don't agree." What, what's the one thing you would change?
- SPSpeaker
Well, I would, what I would make it clear is that we are prepared to take on, uh, powerful special interests and the corporate world and the oligarchs, and that means a strong progressive tax system which says to Mr. Musk and to, uh, the corporate world that they're gonna have to start paying their fair share of taxes. Okay? That's number one, and by the way, widely popular. People understand the need for that. You need campaign finance reform. If you want to run for office, we need public funding of elections, uh, and, uh, ending these super PACs, Citizens United. You need healthcare for all, educational opportunity-
- TNTrevor Noah
Let's, let's, let's pause, let's p- pause and go back on that one. I, that's, that's a really interesting idea. Public funding for elections.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- TNTrevor Noah
Let's, let's talk about, let's get into that.
- SPSpeaker
Okay.
- TNTrevor Noah
Like, let's break it down. Like, why is that so important? What do you think it provides us?
- SPSpeaker
It provides people who don't have a lot of money and who are standing up for the working class to run for office and to get elected. Under the present circumstance, you want to run for governor, I'm gonna run for governor. I have a super PAC behind me that's prepared to give me $50, $100 million. I will beat you nine times out of 10.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Okay? But if the ru- the laws are that in order to get on the ballot, I need to have at least X thousands of small contributions, right? And if I do that, I will, they will, I will get public funding for my elections, can only spend a certain amount. That's the rule. I will beat you. In other words, that is a playing, equal playing field.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right, right.
- SPSpeaker
If I can demonstrate that I have strength, can get on the ballot-
- TNTrevor Noah
It's like salary caps in a way.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Right. That's a, that's right. Exactly.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
That's what they do in, in the, uh, Major League Baseball, right?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, Major League Baseball, uh-
- SPSpeaker
Right
- TNTrevor Noah
... you know, basketball, football in, in the UK.
- SPSpeaker
So the Yankees can have-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... 10 times more money than the Red Sox, right? You want to beat me? Good. Let's do it fair fight. $10 million each, that's it. It's unfair if I have $100 million because I'm will al- always beat you.
- TNTrevor Noah
Do you, do you worry though that those types of systems are limited by how well the government is running at that time? And this is what I mean. I love that idea, and I've always been pro it. But then sometimes I go, "Oh man, if the people running have to get their campaigns funded by a, the government, and then the government is in the hands of somebody like a Donald Trump, who then pulls every lever as we've seen." I mean, like, Donald Trump has made me think a president is way more powerful than we were ever told they were. You know, like when, when Biden was in power, when Obama was in power, they always said, "Oh, there's only so much a president can do."
- SPSpeaker
That's right. You're right.
- 1:12:25 – 1:21:48
AI endgame that forgets buyers exist
- SPSpeaker
of us being there for each other.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
So.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know what I've never understood when you talk about the AI and robotics thing, is I don't understand if I'm maybe too stupid to get it or if the people who run these compar- co- corporations have a different idea of what the world would be. Because I don't understand the end goal. They wanna build a factory full of robots, and the robots will do the work. The robots will pack the boxes, and then a robot will deliver the thing, and then a robot will be cleaning a house, and then a robot will be reading an email, a robot will be responding to that email, and then an AI will be advertising, and then an AI will be responding to a social media post, an AI. And then I go like, "Well, if all of this is just like a loop of the machines, when are people getting the money to buy your product?"
- SPSpeaker
Well, that's one of the issues.
- TNTrevor Noah
Do you know what I mean?
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- TNTrevor Noah
When are people actually involved in the equation?
- SPSpeaker
I often use, and, and to be honest with you, it's an issue that needs an enormous amount of study, and I haven't had the time to get into it as deeply as I should. But this is what is pretty clear to me. Uh, number one, uh, robotics and artificial intelligence are gonna replace millions and millions of workers in this country. Now, the contra argument is, "Well, Bernie, you're just a Luddite. You know? Yeah, the blacksmith went out of business, right? But you had an automobile mechanic replacing him, right?"
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
"It's an evolution. That's the way it is."
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
I could be wrong. I don't think so.
- TNTrevor Noah
No, it's funny you say that because we had, um, Mustafa Suleyman on, who, uh, founded DeepMind, one of the first AIs that, you know, beat, um, the-
- SPSpeaker
Yes
- TNTrevor Noah
... the champion at AlphaGo and Alpha-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... Fold for the proteins. He said that on the podcast. He said, "I don't know why everyone's lying about this. There will be a mass displacement of jobs."
- SPSpeaker
Now, so that's number one, and that's kind of easily understood. All right? A robot is gonna do the job in a factory, not a worker. Um, you want a, um, uh, you're a young person and, and you want an entry-level job, AI is there, and-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, it's gone
- SPSpeaker
... you're not gonna get that. That I think we can understand. What else, what are even the greater threats of AI? Again, something easily understood is that AI requires an enormous amount of energy-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... electricity, and water, okay? And this, you're seeing these data centers being fought in community after community. People's electric bills are gonna go up for the privilege of getting, uh, losing their jobs, all right? So you got what that does to the environment is, and a lot of young people are conscious about that. Then you got the, you got the other issue. You ask me why, and it's not just, your, your point is you're not gonna have anybody making money to buy the products.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
All right?
- TNTrevor Noah
I, I don't get-
- SPSpeaker
All right
- TNTrevor Noah
... I don't get why they're doing it.
- SPSpeaker
That's a good point, but I worry even more about human action. I, I'll give you an example. In the, uh, I, my office is in the Dirksen Office Building in the Senate, and this just happened to me the other day. I go down to the cafeteria every now and then, and it, it's quite a good cafeteria, and the people behind the cash registers are really nice people, and I enjoy seeing them. I know them. I've known them for years. Well, guess what? What do you think is happening?
- TNTrevor Noah
They're being replaced-
- 1:21:48 – 1:26:55
A message to angry young men
- SPSpeaker
is hardly ever having, and I'm glad to have the opportunity to at least raise some of these issues with you.
- TNTrevor Noah
Before I let you go, there's one thing I wanted to ask you, because I, I think it's really important. Bernie Sanders the man was once Bernie Sanders the boy, and when I look at the images of you, and I've gone back and seen, like, footage of you on, like, a kids show talking about, you know, these ideas and these ideals and, and see you trying to inspire young people, I'd love for you to talk to young men who are disillusioned, young men out there who are isolated, young men who feel like the whole system has failed them, and they're angry, and they feel like nothing works. What, what would you say to them that isn't, you know, just a platitude? 'Cause some people would just say to them like, "Oh, be your best self, and do your thing." What would you say to them that they could do today in their communities and in their systems to try and make the world better because they feel so angry about-
- SPSpeaker
All right
- TNTrevor Noah
... what they're not getting?
- SPSpeaker
People have a right to be angry. All right? The system is broken. Just one, let me throw out my umpteenth fact to you. Everything being equal, the younger generation will have a lower standard of living than their parents.
- TNTrevor Noah
Damn.
- SPSpeaker
Buy their own home, if they're lucky, at a later age than their parents. People have a right to be angry. Young people have a right to be angry. Nothing wrong with being angry, but know who you're taking your anger out on. Be smart.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Okay? Okay, just don't lash out at anybody and everybody. And also understand what makes you happy and what makes you feeling fulfilled. And my personal experience is that, you know, and I always gotta fight it, if I isolate myself, I'm not out with people, sometimes you gotta force, "Oh, God, do I re-" You probably do that, right?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
"Do I gotta do this show today? Oh, please."
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
"Give me an excuse. Bob, write me a note." Right? I mean, it happens to everybody.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
But, you know, ultimately, when you're out there on the playing field doing what you do, and you're with ... At the end of the day, we are human beings.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, we are.
- SPSpeaker
I need you. You know what? You need me. We need each other.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
That's the bloody world. And, and each of us sitting back, looking at the, you know, bloody computer all day long and AI and all that stuff, it ain't gonna do it, I don't think. You know, I'm not anti-technology. But, you know, you gotta r- we gotta work together-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... to figure out what makes us feel better, uh, as human beings. That's what I would say.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. You know, to that last point, I was talking to my younger brother about this. Obviously, we play video games. I've loved it my whole life. And my brother said to me, "Do you think video games is the problem for young men? They stay at a video game screen all day." And I said, "No. You know what I find the difference is, funny enough, to your point? It's the, it's the way the money has started to work." Back in the day, you bought a video game, you owned the video game, you played the video game, and it was done. Now, they give you the video game for free, and then they loop you in.
- SPSpeaker
Yep.
- TNTrevor Noah
And they start draining your money, and they start draining your money, and they ... And you see kids playing Fortnite. You see kids playing Call of Duty, and they just keep draining that money slowly, and they keep you hooked in an addictive cycle. And the worst thing, it's ... I'm so glad you brought up the point about walking together, going to community spaces and listening to music, shooting basketballs together, is because that's the thing they rob you of. They've made it so that you cannot afford to be part of a community. And if we don't find ways to get back to the idea of a park in Brooklyn, the idea of, like, a, you know, a little rec center, the idea of a-
- SPSpeaker
That's right
- TNTrevor Noah
... a basketball court that's free for people to go and play together in-
- SPSpeaker
Look, I played ... When I was a kid, I did play a lot of basketball, and you know where I played?
- TNTrevor Noah
Aha. I got you.
- SPSpeaker
You got me. I did.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
Episode duration: 1:26:58
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