EVERY SPOKEN WORD
135 min read · 26,508 words- 0:00 – 0:49
Intro
- BBBrené Brown
[upbeat music] I'm a sports girl.
- EUEugene
Oh, you are?
- BBBrené Brown
So, oh, yes.
- EUEugene
Which, which sports?
- TNTrevor Noah
Volleyball.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] I mean, I-
- EUEugene
Squash.
- TNTrevor Noah
Pickleball.
- EUEugene
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
- TNTrevor Noah
Badminton.
- EUEugene
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Are you-
- BBBrené Brown
I play p- I play pickleball six days a week.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, let's go.
- EUEugene
Ay, ay, ay. Let's go.
- BBBrené Brown
I c- [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Wait, I could smell it in you.
- EUEugene
Let's go.
- TNTrevor Noah
It was something hippie-ish.
- BBBrené Brown
It's not like you got a good nose. I'm a white lady that's in-
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Like, I'm a, I'm a white lady over 50. I mean, this is not hard.
- TNTrevor Noah
I would say chai and matcha. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] What are you gonna say next? I bet you bake sourdough.
- TNTrevor Noah
Pumpkin spice latte. [laughs]
- EUEugene
[laughs] Wait, you play pickleball six days a week?
- TNTrevor Noah
I do.
- EUEugene
[laughs] I have found my kind. [upbeat music]
- 0:49 – 8:29
Brené Brown, accents, Congress hearings & the Financial Times controversy
- TNTrevor Noah
This is What Now? with Trevor Noah.
- EUEugene
[upbeat music] One, one, one word gre- one word greeting that would not give me away.
- BBBrené Brown
Try "What's up?"
- EUEugene
It... No, Brené.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. Okay. Well, give me a context.
- EUEugene
The point, the point here is-
- TNTrevor Noah
"Hey" would probably work.
- EUEugene
The point-
- TNTrevor Noah
"Hey." I would try to go with a "Hey." "Hey."
- EUEugene
Look, I've fought the water and the water.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- EUEugene
I fought that one hard. First time I came, I would go, "Can I have some water?" And I'd get looked at for a long time, stared at. Then I'd be like, "Hey, may I please have some water?" And then I'd get water.
- TNTrevor Noah
Your water's sounding good.
- EUEugene
Yeah. You see?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- EUEugene
I fought that for long, so now I'm extending-
- BBBrené Brown
Wait, what is-
- TNTrevor Noah
But it's interesting that you learned to say it from a woman.
- EUEugene
"Some water?"
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, the way you're saying it.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, 'cause you, 'cause you go girl.
- TNTrevor Noah
You go girl.
- EUEugene
[laughs] Again, Rebecca-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- EUEugene
... guess nothing. No, but I'm, I'm serious. You go girl.
- BBBrené Brown
You go girl.
- EUEugene
You go girl when you do like-
- TNTrevor Noah
Really?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, you go, "Hey, can I get some water?"
- EUEugene
Yeah, you're like, "Hey, um, can I get some water?"
- 8:29 – 15:19
Why modern media feels less honest than it used to
- TNTrevor Noah
almost maybe answers a, a question I've had for a while. I've wondered why, um, public conversation has become so sanitized. Like, like-
- EUEugene
Hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... like interviews, everything. You know, I was watching clips from late nights, but like old late night.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And I was like, it was so much more honest.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, it was [laughs] ... Someone was like-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. Someone would come on and they'd go like, "Oh, so your, your movie came out. Uh, you know, what do you, what do you think?" It was like, "I'll be honest. It was a piece of trash. Look, it's, it's not a great mo- film, but, uh, you know, you make movies and you, you get up and you do it again," and you're like, wow, I don't know the last time I saw someone saying that a movie they made was trash.
- BBBrené Brown
No, it's completely true. Or I, I, I'm not sure. I was drunk the whole time.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like that.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Those types of things. Just ... And, and I found myself going ... The, the reason I was, I, I've been going down this rabbit hole is because I was wondering when society sort of, like, lost its ability to be honest in certain spaces, but then what you s- what you're saying maybe answers the question, 'cause I've experienced this as well. If you're gonna go out and talk to media or have any conversation with them, and then they're gonna warp that because they know that's the thing that gets them-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... the most views and the most clicks-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... then people now become more and more and more rigid. And so when they go to an interview or when they have a conversation, they go, "I'm not gonna say anything-
- EUEugene
That you can use against you
- TNTrevor Noah
... that you can use against me."
- BBBrené Brown
100%.
- EUEugene
That's dating.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, but now what, what it means is [laughs]
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
You just end up in a world where you said nothing because you're so scared, and correctly. You're so scared that the person will take the one part of the interview, your fuck it era.
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
They're gonna take that and make that the interview as opposed to putting it in context.
- EUEugene
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And so then people go, "You know what? You're not gonna see any real parts of me."
- EUEugene
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
"I will give you the most sanitized version of me." But then ironically, what that's done is it's made people ... Like, I think there's a reason TV is dying and, like, celebrity culture's sort of, like, waning and, and now it's become more about social media because people are looking for real, and mainstream doesn't, like, have real anymore in that way.
- EUEugene
So basically you're saying people conduct themselves in interviews like sports stars do.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes. Yes, yes.
- 15:19 – 24:13
Pickleball obsession, sports fandom & finding your people
- BBBrené Brown
Hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Honestly, one of my favorite things about podcasts has been, have you seen how many athletes have podcasts now?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Where they now like say like the real things.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, my God. Express themselves. Yeah. I love it so much.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's the greatest thing in the world.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, because I'm a big, I'm a sports girl.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, you are?
- BBBrené Brown
So, oh, yes.
- TNTrevor Noah
Which, which sport?
- BBBrené Brown
Volleyball. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, I-
- TNTrevor Noah
Squash.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Pickleball.
- BBBrené Brown
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
- TNTrevor Noah
Badminton.
- BBBrené Brown
I, I play, I play pickleball six days a week.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, let's go.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh.
- TNTrevor Noah
Ai, ai, let's go.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Hey, I could smell it in you.
- BBBrené Brown
Let's go.
- TNTrevor Noah
There was something hippie-ish.
- BBBrené Brown
It's not like you got a good nose. I'm a white lady that's in-
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Like, I'm a, I'm a white lady over 50. I mean, this is not hard.
- TNTrevor Noah
When did you say chai and matcha? [laughs]
- 24:13 – 35:25
Becoming “Brené Brown” and losing your anonymity
- TNTrevor Noah
And so I wanna know, like, w- going back to, to, to sort of, uh, the, the way we started this is when people, like, take you seriously or when people ... I- is there a way t- 'cause
- EUEugene
I don't know when, when did you, like, become Brené Brown? And what I mean by that is you- you're Brené Brown, but then at some point you become Brené Brown.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- EUEugene
You're not just Brené. You're not, uh, Ms. Brown. You, you are Brené Brown. And people, "Brené Brown, Brené Brown, Brené Brown." Then you're in an airport, so, "Brené Brown, can... Brené Brown, my, my life, Brené Brown." And then a, a, a company leader, "Brené Brown, Brené Brown, Brené Brown, Brené..." I, I'd love to know, like, when that happened and how weird that was for your life, because it fascinates me because of the thing we're talking about, right?
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- EUEugene
Um, you know an athlete is somebody who plays the sport that they play, and then we are shocked in society when they do anything human outside of what they do.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- EUEugene
Does that make sense?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- EUEugene
"Spotted, NBA superstar drunk at a party." And you're like, "Well, why is that a thing?"
- BBBrené Brown
Why is that a thing?
- EUEugene
Because we only see them in one space.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- EUEugene
We only see them in one world.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm.
- EUEugene
We now, we now make them one idea.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- EUEugene
You, you are a, you are a fixed-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- EUEugene
... metastasized idea of a human being, and anything beyond that is wrong.
- BBBrené Brown
Can't be you.
- EUEugene
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And also can't be you.
- EUEugene
I, I, I-
- BBBrené Brown
No, it can't be. Yeah ... I think the minute that happens, I, I don't... Let me think about another word. I wish there was another word for dehumanizing that wasn't dehumanizing, 'cause I wanna save dehumanizing for the really big, catastrophic trauma.
- EUEugene
Oh, yeah. I hear what you're saying.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, but I wish there was a word that was, like, uh, reductive. Re- like there, like a-
- EUEugene
Yeah, it's reductive. It's flattening.
- BBBrené Brown
It's flattening.
- EUEugene
It's, yeah.
- 35:25 – 50:54
Internet mobs, public criticism & the bucket theory
- TNTrevor Noah
piling in." And he, he wrote it-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... out. I could probably still find it in my DMs. He wrote it out, and can I tell you, I'm eternally grateful to him, because he was honest enough to be aware of what was actually happening.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
'Cause someone might be like, "You know why," or they, they try and, like, put it back on you.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
He was like, "Oh, yeah, you've done nothing wrong. We're a mob, and as a mob, we're coming for you. It's a lot of fun, and this is what the internet does. Welcome to the internet, buddy." And he was like, "Uh, just for, for, for the record, I think you're very funny. I do think you're gonna fail on The Daily Show, but I think you're very funny, and, uh, wish you the best of luck." And I, I just went, "W- w- what is, what is happening here?" It, and, and I, I, I, I know this sounds crazy, but just that interaction gave me a third way to think of it. It went, I went, it is not that the person th- people think I'm this way. It is not even that they need me to be this way. I have just happened to step into the spot where somebody was about to drop a bucket of water.
- EUEugene
You happened.
- TNTrevor Noah
Does that make sense?
- EUEugene
Yeah, you happened into the spot. Yeah, the right spot.
- TNTrevor Noah
So, so the way I started thinking of it is I went Everywhere, all the time in our lives as people, we have buckets that we're filling with water, and that, that water is l- whatever emotions they may be.
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
We've got a bucket of love. We've got a bucket of anger. We've got a bucket of hate. We've got a bucket of disdain. Whatever these things are, we've, we've got these buckets.
- EUEugene
Mine are water balloons.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yours are water balloons.
- EUEugene
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
I like that. You are a water balloon kind of guy.
- EUEugene
Accuracy.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs] So-
- BBBrené Brown
I can already see it
- TNTrevor Noah
... we're, so we're filling them up. We're filling them up. We're filling them up.
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Or they're being filled up.
- EUEugene
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
They're being filled up, and, and, and if you're not aware of it, you know, they, they g- they get full, they get full, and then at some point you tip it out. Whoever's there-
- EUEugene
It's catching
- TNTrevor Noah
... when the tipping happens gets all of it. They just get all of it. And, and this person made me realize sometimes we make it seem like the bucket is being tipped on us.
- BBBrené Brown
It's just being tipped and we're there.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's just being tipped-
- EUEugene
The thing was gonna happen anyway
- 50:54 – 55:24
Belonging, loneliness & the psychology of schadenfreude
- BBBrené Brown
and, you know, and so that's weird. The thing that I would say about the inclusive versus exclusive and the collective dumping of emotion- Mm-hmm ... is one thing that we're, we haven't talked about yet that I think is neurobiologically, I know is neurobiologically hardwired, is belonging. Mm-hmm.
- EUEugene
Shoo.
- BBBrené Brown
And so genuine belonging is very, very difficult, because belonging doesn't ask us to fundamentally change who we are. It requires that we be who we are. So if I'm, if y'all are friends and I'm at a, you know, I can't get a brief from my team on y'all and know exactly what to say. Mm-hmm. Because then I'm not being myself, and if you like me for that, I know it's fraught. Right. 'Cause the second I'm myself, then I'm, I'm doomed. Genuine belonging really requires the capacity for people to stand on their own and be alone. Mm-hmm. And if you can stand on your own and be alone, and then be yourself, and then there's real connection. So genuine belonging is tough. One of the fastest neuro hacks to belonging is collective schadenfreude. No ways. That, that is, that is one of the, that, that is, it gives us full body feelings- No ways ... of belonging. We are going to connect mutually in watching this person fall, and it gives us all kinds of goosebumps. Huh. It gives us all kinds of sense of we're together, and what I say is, "I don't really know you, but our connection, the three of us, is we hate the same people." Damn.
- EUEugene
We're at a public square for a hanging.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, we're, we're at the public square for a hanging. And, and there's a couple of things that are happening in that public square at the moment. One, we're gathered. One, there's a ton of adrenaline. Two, we're very limbic in the part of our mind that's very fight-flight, you know. We're also mitigating each other's shame- Hmm
- EUEugene
Yes
- BBBrené Brown
... about enjoying this. Mm-hmm. That's what a mob- Yeah ... you said this with firing squad. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We're mitigating- Yeah, yeah, just having ... each other's shame. So the collective schadenfreude about watching someone, especially who's got celebrity or, or a platform fail, is it's not lasting or meaningful. It's kind of like you're, you're hardwiring it. Yeah. I mean, hotwiring it, like you hotwire a car- Yes ... if you're stealing it, right? But it's there. So that's one thing I would say, is we, I don't think we can forget the counterfeit connection we get-
- EUEugene
Hmm
- BBBrené Brown
... from collective schadenfreude. And in a world where so many people are in pain and need, don't have what it takes to forge real connection because we're so lonely right now, it's very, it's a, it's a really, it's a surefire way to get it. It's just absolutely a Faustian bargain, right?
- EUEugene
We've never been so alone-
- BBBrené Brown
Right
- EUEugene
... in a room full of people.
- BBBrené Brown
Right.
- EUEugene
Open your phone, dozens of people.
- BBBrené Brown
Right.
- EUEugene
Social, you're right. We've never been so alone.
- BBBrené Brown
Right. And so we're so alone, so we are so d- and, and, and again, neurobiologically hardwired for connection. In the absence of connection, there is always 100% of the time suffering. And so we're suffering, and so to be with a group of people, even in the comment section, for, it's, it's a, it's a hit. It's just a hit of connection really quickly. Yeah. Um, it is corrosive and damaging over time, 'cause we know it's not real, but it can give us something quick. So I would say we should really think about the collective schadenfreude and need for belonging that we're getting. The second thing I would say is one of the things that worries me a little bit about ... And I get criticized for this a lot, and I think some of the criticism has been helpful, 'cause I mean, if when I wrote Strong Ground, it probably has the la- the last, the probably the last leadership book I'll ever write, and it came out last year. It probably has 30 sports metaphors in it, like chapters built. I mean, there's a chapter called The Tush Push.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
There's a ... You know, it's just it's based on ... 'Cause I think sport is leadership theater.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's everything.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
Right.
- TNTrevor Noah
I think it's life theater, to be honest with you.
- BBBrené Brown
It's life, it- oh, it's life
- 55:24 – 1:02:50
The best and worst sides of sports culture
- BBBrené Brown
theater.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
It, it really is. And so the one thing I would say is dangerous is us collectively coming together to find a place to, to empty our rage bucket-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- BBBrené Brown
... for me is the best of sport and why sometimes I find it indefensible and the worst of sport.
- TNTrevor Noah
Interesting. Okay.
- BBBrené Brown
So we know that the busiest day of the year for domestic violence hotlines is Super Bowl Sunday.
- TNTrevor Noah
I did not know that.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. We know w- more women are beat by male partners on Super Bowl Sunday.
- TNTrevor Noah
Are you being serious?
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. We know that ... And, and I'm, I'm talking about this honestly because I, I came from kind of a baller family. We were athletes. My dad played football in college. Um, and but I also grew up with a very complex father who Sundays were not safe in our house-
- TNTrevor Noah
Damn
- BBBrené Brown
... based on how the games went. 'Cause we weren't, you know, American, we grew up with NFL was like our premier league, right?
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
So I would also say that giving ourselves permission to feel hate or rage in sport is really dangerous. So right now what I'm seeing with a c- with college football teams that I work with are ... And I hate to be the downer in this, but I think it's-
- TNTrevor Noah
No, no
- BBBrené Brown
... a really important conversation.
- TNTrevor Noah
I think the realistic.
- BBBrené Brown
The realistic, yeah, yeah.
- EUEugene
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
The realistic. It's not even down.
- BBBrené Brown
Are these 18 to 22-year-old kids-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... that are playing college football that are, and we'll get into a really hard topic here, um, that are getting death threats every day because betting has become such a problem.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's a scourge.
- BBBrené Brown
It's a scourge, right.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's a scourge.
- BBBrené Brown
It's, and, and fuck the people who do it.
- TNTrevor Noah
No, no, it's a scourge.
- 1:02:50 – 1:20:14
Conflict, disagreement & learning how to belong
- TNTrevor Noah
I have tons of bins full of shit.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
So therapy has, therapy has, and coaching has taught me to compost-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... my stuff.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
But that's not accessible to everyone.
- TNTrevor Noah
I, I know. Yeah, I think-
- TNTrevor Noah
Completely
- TNTrevor Noah
... I think I figured this out in ... I was having a conversation this week, and I said that composting plant for that discourse is healthy disagreeability with people that you like.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah. I do agree with this.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, my God, that's good. Say that again.
- TNTrevor Noah
Healthy disagreeability with people that you like.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay, wait a second. Trash.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- TNTrevor Noah
And then I'm gonna compost it because I'm gonna have healthy-
- TNTrevor Noah
Disagreeability-
- TNTrevor Noah
... 100%
- TNTrevor Noah
... with someone that I like.
- TNTrevor Noah
Is it someone you like?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Or is it someone you trust?
- TNTrevor Noah
Both.
- TNTrevor Noah
Both. Okay.
- TNTrevor Noah
It could be someone I love, someone I like, someone I trust.
- TNTrevor Noah
Essentially, fundamentally, it's get along with-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes
- TNTrevor Noah
... like, is the main-
- TNTrevor Noah
I do know, I do know the one thing that could, that scares me the most that you would've ... You said at the beginning was belonging. I know that's not threatened-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- 1:20:14 – 1:30:09
Trust, reciprocity, gratitude & healthy relationships
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] it reminded me of your joke.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] It reminded me of your joke.
- EUEugene
Don't put me back in there, Brené.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- EUEugene
Let's move on. Don't put me back in it, please.
- BBBrené Brown
It reminded me of like, you own this fricking platform.
- EUEugene
[laughs] Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Why do you have to have the real doll, @realdoll-
- EUEugene
Yeah. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... punch up 4732?
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Like, dude. Um, anyway, but I think, like, when he, when Robert Mueller died-
- EUEugene
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... and he said, "I'm glad he's dead."
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm. Mm.
- BBBrené Brown
Like, that is not, that, that, that, that could be pathology, but it's also authoritarianism from the playbook.
- EUEugene
Oh, for sure.
- BBBrené Brown
So it absolutely depends-
- EUEugene
Oh, for sure
- BBBrené Brown
... on that. Um, but what's scarier to me is democracy depends on understanding that policy differences can exist between people who see each other as humans with different ideas about how to achieve-
- EUEugene
That's the key part of it though, yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... the same goal. And what I think is interesting about this tying sport back into that-
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm
- BBBrené Brown
... where you see those coaches, and this is, this is incredible. So when you look at the research on [clears throat] two types of teams, a team playing to not lose versus a team playing to win.
- EUEugene
Mm.
- BBBrené Brown
So I'll take you right back to kind of the Birds and the Chiefs Super Bowl.
- EUEugene
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, one of, and this is what's so interesting about what you're saying about amplification, one of... If you, if you blindfolded me and put my back to the field, it doesn't matter the sport, and just had me listen to what it sounds like on the bench from Team A and the bench on Team B, I could predict probably with 90% accuracy the winner based on the contagion of emotion in the sideline. So negative contagion, the coach that's losing his shit, that kind of stuff.
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm.
- 1:30:09 – 1:43:06
Apologies, parenting & repairing relationships
- TNTrevor Noah
"Brené, I'm sorry that text came off as shitty."
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
So if you say that to me.
- BBBrené Brown
Brené, I'm, I'm sorry that text came off as shitty.
- TNTrevor Noah
Thank you. I appreciate it. So the first time I had to apologize to one of my kids for kinda losing my cool, I went and I said, you know, "I'm really..." [laughs] I think he was 10. I said, "I'm really sorry about how I showed up. Um, I think I got scared, and I wasn't my be- my best self, and I apologize." [laughs] Son looked at me and he goes, "Thank you." I was like, "Goddamn, you're grounded, dude. You can't-"
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs] I'm sorry. A little smart. You know, I, I, I, every parenting gene that was set by my parents-
- BBBrené Brown
That's so funny
- TNTrevor Noah
... who would've killed me in that moment-
- BBBrené Brown
That is so funny
- TNTrevor Noah
... when he said, "Thank you, I appreciate it," I was like-
- BBBrené Brown
He didn't absolve you. He wasn't like, "It's okay, Mommy."
- TNTrevor Noah
No, no.
- BBBrené Brown
"You, you doing your best, and I know what you're going through."
- TNTrevor Noah
No.
- BBBrené Brown
No, no, no, no, no.
- TNTrevor Noah
No. It was like, "Thank you, I appreciate it." I, I literally had to, like, close his door and be like, phew.
- BBBrené Brown
I was like, "What the fuck?"
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Um, but I really ... So because like, you know, you see brother- like I, I have a daughter and a son.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And you know, Ellen might waylay Charlie, you know? And then it's like, "How do you think it feels for your brother?"
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- BBBrené Brown
"It probably hurts." I'm like, "Right. So what, what do we need to do next?"
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And this is like such a pain in the ass, 'cause like I'm cooking and taking a work call. I have to pause everything, and it's ... I'm like, you know, I was raised like, "Tell your brother you're sorry or I'll kick your ass and you'll be grounded for six weeks."
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
You know? So then I had to sit down and say, "How do you think that feels?" This and this, you know? And so then, "Okay, Charlie, I'm sorry." "Thank you." "Okay, repair."
- TNTrevor Noah
See, that scenario that you painted though is one that I often mourn-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm
- 1:43:06 – 1:48:41
Fear, insecurity & searching for confirmation
- BBBrené Brown
to be someone."
- TNTrevor Noah
Jeez.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. And so I think for Steve, he just was, thought you're, you're racing to find a spot under the buckets. You're waiting-
- EUEugene
Yeah, yeah, yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... for the buckets to fall-
- EUEugene
Yeah, yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... and then running-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh
- BBBrené Brown
... under them to catch the shit-
- TNTrevor Noah
Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow
- BBBrené Brown
... and confirmation-
- EUEugene
Yeah, mm-hmm
- BBBrené Brown
... about what you're afraid of. Like Move away from the bucket spill-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- BBBrené Brown
... you know, to use our language.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Right? Yeah, yeah. And so I think for me it was, and it, and it absolutely comes back to capitalism. It defin- definitely comes back to, you know, patriarchy. It comes back to I should be able to do all this at one time really well. Never miss a feeding, never miss this. And he's like, "You know, you've got a grant due tomorrow. You sleep."
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- BBBrené Brown
"I'll do this."
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
You know, and then-
- TNTrevor Noah
Did you have a lot of guilt in and around the idea of not doing it?
- BBBrené Brown
Uh, yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And then I would be like, "Oh, my God. How am I gonna do this? I've got this, I'm teaching. The class is going long, and Ellen's got this thing at 3:30, and can you be there?" And he said, "I, I can't be because I'm working." "Okay, I'll, I'll reschedule." He goes, "And you can't be because you're working."
- EUEugene
You can't. Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Wow.
- BBBrené Brown
But then when my daughter turned 16, for Mother's Day I got a card from her that said, "Thank you for showing me what it looks like to have a career that's meaningful for you and be a great mom. That's what I want."
- TNTrevor Noah
Aw.
- BBBrené Brown
But he, "And I wish that you didn't feel as bad about it as you do sometimes."
- 1:48:41 – 1:55:17
Ownership, extraction culture & why modern life feels unsustainable
- TNTrevor Noah
against you. I don't know when, but I know that they will because what you're doing is unsustainable."
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
It is unsustainable. We now live in a world where we don't even own things that we buy.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
You ever think about how crazy that is?
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
You buy music now. Have you ever read the terms and conditions?
- EUEugene
No.
- TNTrevor Noah
I do this to myself sometimes just because I'm entertained. It'll be like new terms and conditions, and I go read it. You know now on many streaming services where you buy, not, I'm not saying you buy-
- BBBrené Brown
Buy the song. Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... you have a streaming service, not Netflix.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
You buy an album or you buy a movie.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Buy it.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know that you're not buying the movie. You are buying the right-
- BBBrené Brown
To watch it
- TNTrevor Noah
... to watch the movie-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... or stream it-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... as long as that service exists.
- BBBrené Brown
That's right. Yeah.
- EUEugene
So if they go away, the money goes as well.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, but, but you don't know this. You think you are-
- EUEugene
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... buying Bad Boys-
- EUEugene
Yes
- TNTrevor Noah
... the movie And you have it. You do not have it. You, you don't even have the right to give it to your friend to watch anymore. You, we live in a world where now we're not even-
- 1:55:17 – 2:00:29
Courageous leadership, culture & performance
- BBBrené Brown
God, yeah. I mean, this is, this is, again, this could go down in, like, we just have to do Podcast 47 on, on-
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... on per- on, on, on systems theory, because this is systems theory, like person and environment. Um, I think if you understand conditions and you understand the neurobiology of the fact that we are not cognitive beings-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- BBBrené Brown
Who on occasion feel we are emotional beings who on occasion think- Damn ... I think so. If you understand conditions and person and environment and you understand emotion- Yeah ... and emo- the neurobiology of emotion in everything, emotion decision-making, emotion everything, I think you, we would have a very, a much more clear picture of what we're complicit in, what we're doing, and what's happening. I think for the conversations, [clears throat] I have to be really careful about talking about this, and not for NDA reasons, which those are, I got ... Those are, I got, I'm into those ass high at this point. But it's really because I didn't come into the work because I have an expert opinion on how the Strait of Hormuz is gonna affect supply chain along with tariff. Yeah. Like, I, I have to understand that stuff because I'm mostly just sitting in a meeting trying to understand if a group of people at a table can work well enough together- Yeah ... and have the grounded competence to make hard decisions together- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... that are, you know, I think a lot of times people, people who know me well will say, "Is your work kind of just a Trojan horse for making people kinder and braver to each other?" And I'll say, "No. No, it's really about supply chain." Um, [laughs] you know, 'cause it's not really... And so for me, I have to be careful because the assessment process for me to work with someone starts with the first question of you want me to come in and make people braver. Um, I'm, I'm happy to talk about that from an assessment perspective. The opposite of courageous leadership is not fear. What gets in the way is armor, where, you know, people who are afraid every day and they still do brave things, the opposite of courage is armor. How do we self-protect and armor up when we're in fear? Hmm. That's what drives bad strategy, bad human, you know, b- bad human interaction. And so if they're like, "Okay, we're willing to talk about armor in our company and how we armor up," then I said, "Great, then I'm gonna talk to the people with the least formal power and ask them why armor is required here." Oh, geez.
- TNTrevor Noah
The vulnerable ones, yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Right. I'm gonna ask the people that don't look like everybody-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- BBBrené Brown
... else, that have the least proximity to power.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
I'm gonna start there. And so I'm really only working with CEOs who say, "Ask anything you want of anyone you want." Oh, interesting. I, we need more s- strategic risk-taking. We need people to be braver. We need more collaboration. We need more productive challenge. I can't have people on teams who are afraid to challenge their boss. Right, right.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
So I'm like, "Great, then this is a good fit for me." So what I would say in general and what I see working across companies globally right now is, [clears throat] if you are trying to create a place, a culture... And it's interesting 'cause the work that I do you would think because that's where we start, we would measure culture. But actually- Yeah ... the first cha- things that change when we go into a company, probably not surprising but counterintuitive to some, is actually performance gets stronger. Wow. When you create a workforce of people who feel seen and respected and heard, performance just sky- And that's whether we're talking, I'm talk- working with a soccer team or I'm working with a manufacturing company. Wow. It doesn't matter. When people feel seen, heard, and believed, and trusted- Mm-hmm ... performance goes through the roof. Wow. You cannot stop people.
- TNTrevor Noah
So true. Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Right. So, [clears throat] so I'm a hard, I'm not for everyone, because we are going to talk about identity. We're gonna talk about power. We're gonna have all the conversations you're not supposed to be having right now in organizations. Mm-hmm. Because if you want to drive performance, we need to talk about that. Hmm. We, 'cause, because let's say I'm leading a team, and we're the AI adoption team. Right.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
It will never work unless you trust me enough to productively challenge what I'm saying. Right. Yeah. If you say, "Hey, Brené, I'm really excited about what you're excited about," based on the data I have, I don't think this is gonna work. Hmm. I'm like, "Okay, Trevor, go. What, what do you s- what do you see that I don't see?" But I have to believe that I can do that. You have to believe that you're- Hmm ... respected and trusted and that your opinion matters, and there won't be the moment where you're vulnerable- Hmm ... and then you'll pay for that later- Right ... with a promotion or a performance review. So what I always say about the people that I'm working with are these are normally CEOs who care more about winning than their ego. They are willing to have very hard conversations about identity, very hard conversations about power, the misuse of power. They really want to win on all fronts, and they believe that winning will require human beings who are respected and deeply connected.
- TNTrevor Noah
They're not playing not to lose.
- BBBrené Brown
They're not playing... That, that is the metaphor.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
They're not playing not to lose.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- 2:00:29 – 2:04:31
Leading through uncertainty, AI & organizational change
- BBBrené Brown
They're play- And the hard thing is even right now if we go into a really suc- a company that has a lot of success- Yeah ... it is the nature of the C-suite to see the flag planted on the top of the mountain and say, "Protect the flag." Yeah. Yeah. "Protect the success. Protect the stock price. Protect the organic growth. Protect the revenue." What's interesting today is that mountain is crumbling from the bottom up. Hmm. So it is full of cra- the, it is, the, the, the, the fault lines are geopolitical instability, um, competition, market change, AI. So you can protect that flag, but as you're protecting it, that mountain is just coming down and down and down. So as a leader right now today, the only choice you have is to look for the next peak and go, and you don't jump from the top of one mountain to the top of the next mountain. You jump from the top of one mountain to the side of the next mountain, and you're holding on like this. Damn. And all the people you lead are tethered to you.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
And no one-
- TNTrevor Noah
You're taking them with you
- BBBrené Brown
... you're taking them with you. And, I mean, let's just be honest. Like, I think y'all are Smart, fun, but I'm gonna take my chances going alone if we have to leap. If we, if, if you and I have to... If the three of us, for some reason, have to leap out this window-
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... I'm gonna be like, "I hope I see y'all again on the pickleball court." [laughs]
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
But it actually doesn't work, 'cause if you're my team and the three of us don't make it together, but-
- EUEugene
The survivor is useless
- BBBrené Brown
... then the, the survival's useless.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
So then we have to be like, "Ah, shit, man, we have five minutes. The three of us have to go together. What, how do we think we do it?"
- TNTrevor Noah
Damn.
- BBBrené Brown
You know?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And no idea can be stupid. You're like, "We find a giant crane and we swing from it" And then I can't say, "Shut the fuck up."
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm.
- BBBrené Brown
I'm like, "Okay, what kind of crane?" And this is why-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm
- BBBrené Brown
... this is why I just, I was hoping I could work this in. This is why you saw the world full of people crying and cheering for Artemis II.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- EUEugene
Mm.
- BBBrené Brown
What we saw were four people from very different lived experiences-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... who looked different, loving each other, kind to each other-
- EUEugene
Needing each other
- BBBrené Brown
... needing each other, facing complex challenges together, and winning.
- EUEugene
And definite uncertainty.
- 2:04:31 – 2:07:07
Giving difficult feedback & building trust
- TNTrevor Noah
Play back.
- BBBrené Brown
Play, the play back. 'Cause what happens a lot of times, especially in feedback, is I say to you, "Here's what I think is going wrong. I think you are doing incredible work. You're saying yes to too much, and you're not able to deliver everything on time because you're saying yes across all these meetings. I wanna help you set the right boundaries at the right time."
- EUEugene
Mm.
- BBBrené Brown
And you're like, "Okay." I said, "No, no, Eugene, play back what you think you're hearing."
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh.
- BBBrené Brown
And then you say, "I'm an asshole. I'm gonna get fired."
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Because that's, that's a lot of times what people-
- EUEugene
I can carry on this way.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- EUEugene
I won't be here for long.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Right. Okay, okay, so what you heard me saying is, "If you carry on this way-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm
- BBBrené Brown
... you're not gonna be here for long," right?
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
So we need to do this again then, 'cause what I'm saying is you're doing excellent work. You're taking on too much. It's not good for you, and there's no way you can deliver against those things. Play it back again.
- EUEugene
You're doing too much, Eugene. You're carrying this podcast on your shoulders.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- EUEugene
Trevor needs to wear less sweaters. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Wait, did y'all decide on the white T-shirt, cardigan white?
- TNTrevor Noah
Can I tell you-
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
My, can I tell you-
- BBBrené Brown
No, I'm so here
- TNTrevor Noah
... my greatest joy in life.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
My greatest joy-
- EUEugene
You should come here often.
- 2:07:07 – 2:08:38
Moving toward what you love instead of away from fear
- EUEugene
or a sweater after all of this time? Because he hasn't done it. We've been
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- EUEugene
Never.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know why you ended up here, Eugene, is because you were trying not to dress like me out of fear, and I got here because I was trying to dress out of love.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm. You weren't walking towards your fit, you were walking away from his fit.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
And that's how we ended up here, my friend.
- EUEugene
We did the play back in real time.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- EUEugene
I hate you. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
It just invited me back.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, man.
- BBBrené Brown
But I'm gonna tell you the, I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna confess something. I did, when we sit do- when we sat down, I did try to see if you had a beaded bracelet on, 'cause I thought maybe y'all planned something.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, no.
- BBBrené Brown
'Cause he does.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh.
- BBBrené Brown
And I thought maybe that was cute, that you're like-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, I wish I had
- BBBrené Brown
... cardigan crew.
- TNTrevor Noah
But I would never, but I would never do it on pur-
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
But I was just like...
- BBBrené Brown
But I thought it was cute. I thought it was like cardigan crew magic.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, we're doing deep.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
We're doing deep. Brené, this-
- EUEugene
Now we have a jingle. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
I love it, actually.
- BBBrené Brown
Hi.
- 2:08:38 – 2:09:36
Closing thoughts
- TNTrevor Noah
[clapping]
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. Woo!
- TNTrevor Noah
Let's go. Woo!
- BBBrené Brown
[vuvuzela sounds]
- EUEugene
That's a vuvuzela.
- BBBrené Brown
[vuvuzela sounds]
- TNTrevor Noah
I need to take a vuvuzela to Anfield.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Just to test my membership. [vuvuzela sounds]
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, my God.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, this was so much fun. Thank you, Brené, for real.
- EUEugene
Shout out to Steve.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Nice. Thanks.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Shit. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Water. [upbeat music]
- TNTrevor Noah
Thank you so much for watching the episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friend still. Let them suffer for a change. And don't forget to engage with us in the comments. Uh, if you wanna, uh, suggest a guest, maybe there's questions you want, maybe there's ideas that you have, you can chat to us. We will read through the comments and we'll get into it. Either way, I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you for hanging out with us on What Now? And remember, we do this for you, so we would like to hear from you. Till next time, thank you.
Episode duration: 2:09:38
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Transcript of episode yeXmYvBI0Co
