Don Lemon: Who Is Afraid of the Truth?

Don Lemon 0:00 [upbeat music] Should I, should I tell my age?

Trevor Noah 0:06 If we walked on the streets together now-

Eugene Daniels 0:07 No way

Trevor Noah 0:07 ... the three of us, I'm not even gassing you up.

Don Lemon 0:08 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 0:08 If we walked together in the streets, people would not go, "Why are they with that old guy?"

Eugene Daniels 0:13 No way.

Don Lemon 0:14 Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 0:14 They would just be like, "Your friend."

Don Lemon 0:16 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 0:16 They might even say your brother to me.

Don Lemon 0:17 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 0:17 They'd be like, "Uh, you- you're here with... I think he's your brother."

Don Lemon 0:20 And I would go, I'd try to do your accent, but I can't.

Trevor Noah 0:23 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 0:23 [laughs]

Don Lemon 0:23 "That is my brother."

Trevor Noah 0:26 [laughs]

Don Lemon 0:26 Uh. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 0:27 I don't-

Don Lemon 0:27 I don't know. Should I tell my age here? I don't know.

Trevor Noah 0:29 You can tell your age. What's your age?

Don Lemon 0:29 I'm 60. I turned 60 this year.

Eugene Daniels 0:31 No way.

Don Lemon 0:32 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 0:35 Man.

Trevor Noah 0:36 Don, you look good.

Eugene Daniels 0:37 Yeah.

Don Lemon 0:37 Thank you.

Trevor Noah 0:37 Like, you look good good.

Eugene Daniels 0:38 100%.

Don Lemon 0:39 Thank you.

Trevor Noah 0:39 Like, I'm not a side, but I'm just saying, man.

Don Lemon 0:41 Thank you. I was gonna say-

Trevor Noah 0:42 I would. I'm not, I'm not a side, but Don, yo, you look good.

Don Lemon 0:46 I'm married, Trevor.

Trevor Noah 0:47 [laughs]

Don Lemon 0:48 Back off. [upbeat music]

Trevor Noah 0:54 This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. [upbeat music] I have a pitch-

Eugene Daniels 1:09 Yes

Trevor Noah 1:09 ... for a business or, or a structure that we can implement in society where we find-

Eugene Daniels 1:15 Which one is it?

Trevor Noah 1:15 We find a way-

Eugene Daniels 1:16 Is it a business or is it a structure that can-

Trevor Noah 1:18 Well, I don't know

Eugene Daniels 1:19 ... be implemented in society?

Trevor Noah 1:19 I don't know, I don't know which one will work more effectively. That's why I'm saying it's just a pitch.

Eugene Daniels 1:22 Okay, sharp, sharp, sharp. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:22 But basically what we do is we get... We find a way to let everyone live in everyone's houses when they're not there.

Eugene Daniels 1:31 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:31 Listen. Wait. You can't vote against it-

Eugene Daniels 1:34 [laughs] Yeah, yeah

Trevor Noah 1:34 ... before I'm finished.

Eugene Daniels 1:35 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:36 Eugene, you can't vote against it before I'm finished.

Eugene Daniels 1:37 Okay.

Trevor Noah 1:38 So this is what I'm saying. Most of the time, our houses are all empty, everywhere in the world.

Eugene Daniels 1:43 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:43 Most, most abodes-

Don Lemon 1:45 It's true

Trevor Noah 1:45 ... are empty.

Eugene Daniels 1:46 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:46 Right?

Eugene Daniels 1:47 And most are not humble.

Trevor Noah 1:48 Yes. They... That's true.

Eugene Daniels 1:50 True.

Trevor Noah 1:50 But, like, I just think there could be a way for us to figure out a system where... C- okay, 'cause let's be honest, let's be honest. The, the, the main reason you don't want living, someone living in your house is why?

Trevor Noah 2:00 Let's, let's, let's list a few reasons.

Eugene Daniels 2:01 Eh, eh.

Trevor Noah 2:02 Uh, no, no, no. Just give me the reasons.

Eugene Daniels 2:03 Why are we making this about our pet peeves-

Trevor Noah 2:04 Wait, wait, wait

Eugene Daniels 2:05 ... where, man-

Trevor Noah 2:05 I'm asking you-

Eugene Daniels 2:05 Get on with your proposal-

Trevor Noah 2:06 Wait

Eugene Daniels 2:06 ... so we can shoot it down-

Trevor Noah 2:07 Wait, wait, wait. First, first-

Eugene Daniels 2:07 ... with a clear conscience

Don Lemon 2:08 Are you guys rolling on this shit?

Trevor Noah 2:10 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 2:12 [laughs] Okay. What, what-

Don Lemon 2:13 I wanna, I wanna show you that this is well thought out.

Eugene Daniels 2:14 Okay, sharp. Let's hear it.

Don Lemon 2:15 Is this African on African crime?

Trevor Noah 2:18 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 2:19 [laughs] Push the feel one of us. [laughs]

Don Lemon 2:21 Can I, can I just observe-

Eugene Daniels 2:22 Yeah, nah

Don Lemon 2:22 ... I just observed something. Can I, can you, can I jump in?

Trevor Noah 2:25 Yeah, of course. What do you mean?

Eugene Daniels 2:26 Anytime.

Don Lemon 2:26 So, uh, this is, uh, what do you call it when, um... Oh, shit. When you... Uh, your, your accent is heavier now when you're speaking to him.

Trevor Noah 2:36 Oh, yeah, definitely. Definitely.

Don Lemon 2:38 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 2:38 100%.

Don Lemon 2:39 Your acc-

Trevor Noah 2:39 Code-switching is what people call it.

Don Lemon 2:40 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 2:40 Yeah, yeah.

Don Lemon 2:41 Your, you're code- you're code-switching.

Trevor Noah 2:42 Yes. But I don't just happen-

Don Lemon 2:43 Right now

Trevor Noah 2:43 ... it happens, it happens differently-

Eugene Daniels 2:43 In two hours we're gonna talk to you-

Trevor Noah 2:44 You're gonna say it's gonna happen to you

Don Lemon 2:46 When you were on The Daily Show you were talking like a White guy. No, I'm kidding. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 2:49 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 2:50 And now you're like, "Hey, man."

Trevor Noah 2:50 That was a White guy impression.

Don Lemon 2:52 "Hey, man. Hey, man."

Trevor Noah 2:52 [laughs] You know, you know what's funny is actually... No, it's, it's, it's funny that you said that.

Eugene Daniels 2:57 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 2:58 For the first-

Eugene Daniels 2:58 And don't think I forgot about your proposal.

Trevor Noah 3:00 No, I'm gonna get back to it.

Eugene Daniels 3:01 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 3:01 For the first-

Don Lemon 3:02 He proposed to you?

Trevor Noah 3:03 ... six months to a year-

Eugene Daniels 3:04 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 3:04 ... that I was on The Daily Show-

Don Lemon 3:05 Yeah

Trevor Noah 3:06 ... the amount of hate mail that we got because of my accent, Don-

Eugene Daniels 3:09 No.

Trevor Noah 3:11 It was... I ha- I felt like I had to go for elocution lessons.

Eugene Daniels 3:15 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 3:16 People would say, "He can't..." So the, there were words that people just refused. So for instance, in South Africa, when we're referring to the plural of a woman-

Eugene Daniels 3:24 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 3:24 Yeah

Trevor Noah 3:24 ... we say women.

Don Lemon 3:26 Mm.

Trevor Noah 3:26 That's how we say it, women.

Eugene Daniels 3:27 Women.

Trevor Noah 3:28 Women.

Eugene Daniels 3:29 Mm.

Don Lemon 3:29 Okay.

Trevor Noah 3:29 Right?

Eugene Daniels 3:30 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 3:30 Americans say-

Don Lemon 3:31 Women

Trevor Noah 3:32 ... women. Exactly. As if it's not an O.

Don Lemon 3:34 Like, if it's W-E-

Trevor Noah 3:35 So we say-

Don Lemon 3:35 ... M-E-N, right?

Trevor Noah 3:36 Exactly. You say it like it's W-E-M-E-N, so you say, like, women. And then in South Africa we say women the way it's written.

Eugene Daniels 3:43 Water.

Trevor Noah 3:44 And then, I mean, that one obviously. Water.

Eugene Daniels 3:45 I hate that water.

Don Lemon 3:46 Well, the reason we say it that way is because this is America, right?

Trevor Noah 3:48 [laughs]

Don Lemon 3:48 And people like to go, you, you know, "I am not... There's only two genders. We men." [laughs]

Trevor Noah 3:54 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 3:55 [laughs]

Don Lemon 3:55 No. So like, so there was that one.

Trevor Noah 3:58 Don-

Eugene Daniels 3:58 What, what is the other one? [laughs]

Trevor Noah 4:00 What is the, what is the-

Eugene Daniels 4:00 It's too early, man.

Don Lemon 4:01 I'm sorry.

Eugene Daniels 4:01 We still have a long way to go. [laughs]

Don Lemon 4:02 I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Trevor Noah 4:04 The... What is, what is the other one I was saying? I mean, there's the obvious, um, aluminum.

Eugene Daniels 4:08 I hate-

Trevor Noah 4:08 And I don't know why aluminum was in the script so much, but things were happening in the American government with aluminum.

Eugene Daniels 4:13 You never had to say mirror?

Trevor Noah 4:15 Um, mirror I would say, but they-

Eugene Daniels 4:17 Mirror?

Trevor Noah 4:17 Yeah. Mirror, I wouldn't say mirror.

Eugene Daniels 4:18 No, man.

Trevor Noah 4:18 I would say mirror.

Eugene Daniels 4:19 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 4:19 And people would go, "This is r-" But it was a deluge, as they would say, of people complaining.

Don Lemon 4:26 Deluge.

Eugene Daniels 4:26 Deluge.

Don Lemon 4:27 [laughs] You see.

Trevor Noah 4:28 Deluge.

Eugene Daniels 4:28 Lots of water.

Don Lemon 4:30 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 4:32 Yo.

Don Lemon 4:32 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 4:32 And all, they said-

Eugene Daniels 4:32 Every time

Trevor Noah 4:33 ... they would go, "This person has no business replacing John Stewart."

Eugene Daniels 4:37 "No life."

Trevor Noah 4:37 "And beyond just his terrible aptitude for American politics, he can't even speak."

Eugene Daniels 4:43 No way.

Trevor Noah 4:44 "Please deal with this." And then I would have to sit and try and... I was like, "How do you say these wor- what am I saying? What, what am I saying wrong?" And so I, over time, I genuinely-

Don Lemon 4:53 Was your-

Trevor Noah 4:53 ... had to learn how to say some of the words in a way-

Don Lemon 4:55 But that happens naturally, I think. I mean-

Trevor Noah 4:57 Yeah, but not when, not when people are watching you on-

Eugene Daniels 4:59 Those hate mails were not necessary

Don Lemon 5:00 Was that really a-

Trevor Noah 5:00 What was it like for you when you, when did you start?

Eugene Daniels 5:02 Was that-

Trevor Noah 5:02 'Cause I mean, I just found out like a-

Don Lemon 5:03 Well, I came from Louisiana. That's like another language. Um, so I, I'm, I lost my Southern accent because I would listen to my voice all the time as a local reporter. And, you know, you'd be in the audio booth recording a track-

Trevor Noah 5:14 Through headphones, yeah

Don Lemon 5:14 ... for a story, and you, you hear your voice and you're like, "I don't like the way that sounds." And so it just naturally corrected itself over time. And I felt like during the show that probably would've happened to you. But I never had an issue understanding you. I had, I honestly, and this is no shade.

Eugene Daniels 5:27 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 5:27 The only accent, there are two accents I have an issue with, or that I can't understand. I don't have an issue with it, that it's hard for me to understand, I have to really listen and have to slow down.

Trevor Noah 5:35 Yeah.

Don Lemon 5:35 Scottish.

Trevor Noah 5:36 Scottish can be hard.

Don Lemon 5:37 And Indian.

Eugene Daniels 5:37 So why did you say no shade to me?

Don Lemon 5:39 Uh, I-

Eugene Daniels 5:40 I'm neither Scottish or Indian.

Trevor Noah 5:41 [laughs]

Don Lemon 5:41 No, but I'm saying, we're just talking about accents, Eugene. Jesus.

Trevor Noah 5:44 [laughs]

Don Lemon 5:45 Why are you so sensitive?

Eugene Daniels 5:47 You said no shade and you were like, "Scottish-"

Trevor Noah 5:50 Yeah

Eugene Daniels 5:50 ... "and Indian." Because-

Don Lemon 5:50 I meant no shade to the Scottish and the Indians who may be watching

Trevor Noah 5:52 Because Eugene, let's be honest, you've often been referred to as the Scottish Indian of South Africa.

Eugene Daniels 5:57 [laughs]

Don Lemon 5:58 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 5:58 True. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 5:59 [laughs]

Don Lemon 5:59 Yeah, but I have to, like, I have to, it's gotta slow down in order for me to understand it.

Trevor Noah 6:03 It depends on-

Eugene Daniels 6:04 Really?

Trevor Noah 6:04 Yeah, it depends on where. I think, like, so Glaswegian acc-

Don Lemon 6:08 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 6:08 ... the Glaswegian accent can be really tough. So-

Eugene Daniels 6:09 Those are people from Glasgow

Trevor Noah 6:10 ... Glasgow.

Eugene Daniels 6:11 They're called Glaswegians.

Trevor Noah 6:12 Yeah. And then Edinburgh has a s- a much softer one

Don Lemon 6:15 Edinburgh

Trevor Noah 6:15 It's a lot- Yeah ... it's a lot easier to, to, to hear. But Indian does, isn't that easy for you?

Don Lemon 6:21 If th- th- they have a tendency to speak fast, right?

Trevor Noah 6:24 Yes. No, that's true

Don Lemon 6:25 And Scottish, right?

Trevor Noah 6:25 Yeah.

Don Lemon 6:25 And some Irish people. I'm like, if you're going too fast I'm like, "Wait a minute."

Trevor Noah 6:28 Then you do s-

Don Lemon 6:28 "Please say that again." And many times over the phone, if someone calls you and they're Indian, I s- I just say, "You have to really... Like, can you please slow down? I don't understand you." The second time they say it, you understand it, but-

Trevor Noah 6:37 And then you're like, "No, I do not want spam calls. Thank you very much"

Don Lemon 6:40 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 6:40 "Hang up, please. I do not want spam."

Don Lemon 6:42 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 6:42 'Cause why is a random Indian person- I've never had an Indian call ... calling you? You've never? Yeah. Oh, in, so in, in s- in America- Yeah ... most of the spam calls will come from, like, India. 'Cause that's where they've outsourced their, all of the call centers to.

Don Lemon 6:52 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 6:52 Oh.

Don Lemon 6:53 I did notice-

Trevor Noah 6:53 We don't have it in South Africa from, uh, India

Don Lemon 6:55 ... I did notice in your comedy special that I thought your accent was, uh, was coming back or heavier than when you were on the show.

Trevor Noah 7:01 Well, thank you very much. Hm.

Don Lemon 7:02 Yeah. But not in a bad way. I mean, I, I like it.

Trevor Noah 7:04 I appreciate that. I didn't think un- it in a bad way until you just said, "But not in a bad way." [laughs]

Don Lemon 7:08 Okay. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 7:08 [laughs]

Don Lemon 7:08 I never know when you're dr- like, being sarcastic or-

Trevor Noah 7:11 Until Don said-

Don Lemon 7:12 Fucking with me

Trevor Noah 7:12 ... "But not in a bad way." "But not in a bad way." I didn't think it was in a bad... You said, "I noticed your accent is coming back, Trevor."

Don Lemon 7:17 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 7:17 And then I was like, "Thank you, Don." And you went, "But not in a bad way." [laughs]

Don Lemon 7:20 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 7:20 [laughs] And I was like, "Ah, in a bad way."

Don Lemon 7:21 I should have just said, "Respectfully."

Trevor Noah 7:23 [laughs] You probably, you probably struggle with those accents because your ear is slow because you come from the South.

Don Lemon 7:30 My, I know I, I have a lazy tongue. I know my tongue is slow.

Trevor Noah 7:33 Yeah.

Don Lemon 7:33 'Cause it's southern.

Trevor Noah 7:33 You know that's a thing, right?

Don Lemon 7:34 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 7:34 Mm-hmm. So depending on where you're from- Southern drawl. Is that what they call it? Like, when you have- Is it? The d- the drawl?

Don Lemon 7:41 Drawl.

Trevor Noah 7:41 Yeah. Southern drawl. Yeah.

Don Lemon 7:43 Southern drawl.

Trevor Noah 7:43 Southern drawl. Can you, so when you go home, can you still do it?

Don Lemon 7:46 I, uh, it just comes back. And then when I come back to New York-

Trevor Noah 7:50 Oh

Don Lemon 7:50 ... my husband will say, "I can tell when you've been home." And I say, "Why?" And he says, "Because listen to how you sound, and you look bloated from all the fricking-

Trevor Noah 7:58 [laughs]

Don Lemon 8:00 ... [laughs] salty and bad food that you're eating." So I go and I gain 10 pounds.

Trevor Noah 8:03 Yeah

Don Lemon 8:03 And I end up saying-

Trevor Noah 8:04 You're home

Don Lemon 8:04 ... "Hey," instead of like my, like, when I'm in New York or whatever-

Trevor Noah 8:07 Yeah

Don Lemon 8:07 ... I'm like, "Mom, what are you doing?" And then I go home, I come back, I'm like, "Mama."

Trevor Noah 8:11 [laughs]

Don Lemon 8:12 "Mama, can you, I want some eggs, Ma, please." And you just get that, you just, "Hey."

Trevor Noah 8:17 You gotta do that m-

Don Lemon 8:18 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 8:18 You should do, like, reports from home just to, like, give us, like, a different Don Lemon.

Don Lemon 8:23 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 8:23 Like, "'Cause now I'm picturing-

Don Lemon 8:24 "Hey, y'all"

Trevor Noah 8:24 ... Don Lemon."

Don Lemon 8:25 The, oh yeah. That's right.

Trevor Noah 8:26 Just like a, you know, "Don Lemon. My good friend Don Lemon- My fa- ... reporting live."

Don Lemon 8:30 Every once in a while it comes out and someone will make fun of it. But every once in a while I'll say something and, like, my husband Tim will go, "Y'all."

Trevor Noah 8:38 [laughs]

Don Lemon 8:38 And I'm like-

Trevor Noah 8:39 You know what? Tim needs to stop. We need to talk to Tim.

Don Lemon 8:41 Yeah, he needs to stop.

Trevor Noah 8:42 We need to talk to Tim. Yeah, because-

Don Lemon 8:43 I think-

Trevor Noah 8:43 I mean- All three of us here are people from the South ... that's how you... And also, you know what I, what freaks me out is, or actually doesn't freak me out, it makes me laugh, is when we're back home-

Don Lemon 8:51 Yeah

Trevor Noah 8:51 ... and then white people hear Trevor speaking isiZulu. It freaks them out all the time.

Don Lemon 8:58 Really?

Trevor Noah 8:59 Freaks them out. Any, any, I don't know why South African languages people get thrown off. Yeah. I guess, but I take for granted for, for many people in South Africa, for at least for a generation- Mm-hmm ... they only knew me from The Daily Show, ironically. So-

Don Lemon 9:12 From South Africa

Trevor Noah 9:13 ... because when I left South Africa, there's the generation that knew me from South Africa- Yes ... doing comedy, doing shows, et cetera. I come to the US, I do The Daily Show. There's a whole new generation that grows up only knowing me from The Daily Show.

Don Lemon 9:25 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 9:26 So, like, I'll meet kids now who are, let's say like 24, somewhere there, and then when I speak Zulu or Tswana or anything, they go, "Oh, what are you... " [laughs] "Where did you learn that?" I'm like, "What do you mean, where did I learn that? These are my languages."

Don Lemon 9:41 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 9:41 [laughs] He's been with me.

Don Lemon 9:42 It's like when y- you see a Black man speaking Chinese.

Trevor Noah 9:45 I love that. That's my favorite. [laughs] Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's literally that. It is literally that.

Don Lemon 9:48 What? Where does that come from?

Trevor Noah 9:49 Yeah. That's my fa- [laughs] that's my favorite thing when people freak out.

Don Lemon 9:51 How honest can we be in this? How, how candid can we be in this?

Trevor Noah 9:53 A thousand, go. Fully.

Don Lemon 9:54 Okay. I really miss you on The Daily Show. Like, really miss you.

Trevor Noah 9:57 Oh, thank you.

Don Lemon 9:58 I don't know what happened. Not my business. I felt like-

Trevor Noah 10:01 What do you, you can ask any questions. Anything

Don Lemon 10:02 ... I felt like I, maybe I'm wrong. I felt like they undervalued

Don Lemon 10:05 what you brought to The Daily Show.

Trevor Noah 10:07 No.

Don Lemon 10:07 And I would've-

Trevor Noah 10:08 No, no, no, no, no, no

Don Lemon 10:08 ... I would've-

Trevor Noah 10:09 No

Don Lemon 10:09 ... I would've fought tooth and nail to keep you there.

Trevor Noah 10:11 No, no, no, no, no. Honestly, they did- no. Honestly, they didn't. No. There was no, there was no fight, there was no shade, there was no nothing. All that happened was I was, I had been doing The Daily Show, it was going on seven years, right?

Don Lemon 10:22 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 10:22 The thing that happened was, so there, there are a few ideas I have of life that are not congruent with how Americans run their businesses sometimes.

Don Lemon 10:32 Right.

Trevor Noah 10:32 Okay? So one of them is I do not believe that everything has to go on forever.

Don Lemon 10:36 Right.

Trevor Noah 10:37 I also believe that people should take breaks.

Don Lemon 10:39 I agree.

Trevor Noah 10:39 In both directions, by the way.

Don Lemon 10:40 I agree with both of those things.

Trevor Noah 10:41 Right? Yes. So I think you should give an audience a break.

Don Lemon 10:44 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 10:44 And you should give staff a break, and you should give, y- like, I like that SNL, for instance, goes off for a few months.

Don Lemon 10:50 Right. Right.

Trevor Noah 10:50 I like that.

Don Lemon 10:51 Right.

Trevor Noah 10:51 I think it's good. I like that TV shows go away and then come back. John Oliver takes, like, a few months off around December, January, comes back in February.

Don Lemon 10:58 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 10:58 I like that. And so my pitch was, "Hey, I love what we're doing here, but I'd just like to take more time. I wanna get back home to South Africa. My accent is fading."

Don Lemon 11:07 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 11:07 "People are noticing this."

Don Lemon 11:09 Your, "I need my hair to grow out."

Trevor Noah 11:10 Yeah, man. I wanna, like, you know, I wanna, I, I still, there's aspects of my life that I miss. Hm. And they were like, "No, man. The Daily Show has to happen the way it does every sing..." I was like, "I think there's another way this could happen." And they were like, "No." And then I was like, "Okay, it's fine. If you don't agree, then we don't agree. But there's no beef, there's no fights. My contract is gonna come to an end, so l- then let's, let's just wrap it up."

Don Lemon 11:32 I understand. I didn't say there was a beef or a fight, but I w-

Trevor Noah 11:34 No, no, but I'm s- you're saying-

Don Lemon 11:35 I would've fought. I would've given you what you wa- if you needed some time off, I would've given you it, and I would have had, like, a-

Trevor Noah 11:39 Oh, Don. Don, oh, man

Don Lemon 11:39 ... if they wanted, I would... Yeah.

Trevor Noah 11:40 Oh, man.

Don Lemon 11:40 'Cause I really thought that you were really valuable in that position.

Trevor Noah 11:43 Thank you.

Don Lemon 11:43 But I also think you're valuable in what you're doing now.

Trevor Noah 11:45 Thank you very much, Don.

Don Lemon 11:45 I love what you're doing now.

Trevor Noah 11:46 You're very kind.

Don Lemon 11:46 And I love how you've, like-

Trevor Noah 11:47 Mm-hmm

Don Lemon 11:48 ... you got a perm now in your hair. You actually have Black hair.

Trevor Noah 11:50 [laughs]

Don Lemon 11:50 Like, as we say, nappy. Before you had good hair. What happened? What'd you do? [laughs]

Trevor Noah 11:58 [laughs] Don, are you sure you're from-

Don Lemon 12:01 You know what? I'm sorry. You, you know her. Dulcé, man, what is one of the funniest things?

Trevor Noah 12:05 [laughs]

Don Lemon 12:05 'Cause you and Dulcé have no doubt done a few things together. But Dulcé Sloan, we're at The Daily Show together. So COVID happens.

Trevor Noah 12:13 Yeah.

Don Lemon 12:14 Nobody has a barber. I'm not gonna risk trying to cut my own hair. My hair grows out.

Trevor Noah 12:18 Mm-hmm. I realized I only cut my hair frequently because I had been-

Don Lemon 12:25 On the show

Trevor Noah 12:26 ... yeah, but also, like, I'd been forced into it in life. So in school-

Don Lemon 12:29 Yeah

Trevor Noah 12:29 ... and in South Africa, we, we, we had this, uh, come up again recently. If you had white hair, you can sort of grow it the way you want.

Don Lemon 12:37 Mm-hmm.

Eugene Daniels 12:37 Unprofessional hairstyle.

Don Lemon 12:38 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 12:38 If you had Black hair-

Don Lemon 12:39 Yeah

Trevor Noah 12:39 ... they called it unprofessional, they called it unkempt-

Don Lemon 12:41 Yeah

Trevor Noah 12:41 ... they called it all these things. So in school, we had to cut our hair if it was this.

Don Lemon 12:46 Right.

Trevor Noah 12:47 So you know, this, so my whole life, cut the hair, cut the hair, cut the hair, cut the hair. It just becomes part of your life.

Don Lemon 12:52 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 12:52 COVID happens, my hair grows out. I was like, "Oh yeah, I like having hair. I miss this."

Eugene Daniels 12:56 I mi- yeah.

Trevor Noah 12:57 I bumped my head, it's not that bad.

Don Lemon 12:58 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 12:59 It's warmer. Especially in New York, let me tell you something.

Eugene Daniels 13:01 Like a bicycle helmet

Trevor Noah 13:01 ... this-

Don Lemon 13:02 It's true

Eugene Daniels 13:02 ... you're not.

Trevor Noah 13:02 This in New York, lifesaver.

Eugene Daniels 13:04 Really?

Don Lemon 13:04 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 13:05 Yo, the amount of warmth-

Eugene Daniels 13:06 In winter or-

Trevor Noah 13:07 In, in winter.

Don Lemon 13:07 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 13:08 Yeah. In summer?

Trevor Noah 13:08 The amount of warmth... No, in summer it's a, it's a liability.

Eugene Daniels 13:10 Bicycle helmet?

Don Lemon 13:11 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 13:11 No, no, no, bruh. This is a helmet.

Don Lemon 13:13 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 13:13 What are you talking about?

Don Lemon 13:14 In the summer, I, this is what I do. My hair is l- uh, does- my hair doesn't grow as long as yours, but I, in the winter I let my hair grow.

Trevor Noah 13:19 Oh, you let it grow and then it just gives you a little-

Don Lemon 13:20 Yeah. I, I, the only reason that I ever really cut my hair was because I was on television.

Trevor Noah 13:24 There you go.

Don Lemon 13:25 Otherwise, I didn't, I don't care about-

Eugene Daniels 13:26 Watch

Don Lemon 13:27 ... hair. Uh, I, I would rather just have it shaved,

Don Lemon 13:30 like, you know-

Eugene Daniels 13:31 Oh, okay

Don Lemon 13:31 ... very low or just let it grow out, but, you know.

Trevor Noah 13:33 Do, what about you? Do you miss being, like, you know?

Don Lemon 13:37 I don't.

Trevor Noah 13:38 You don't miss it?

Eugene Daniels 13:38 At all?

Don Lemon 13:38 I do not miss it. I, I know it sounds weird, I don't miss it. I did in the beginning. It was weird in the beginning because I was at the matrix of every big, important story in the world.

Trevor Noah 13:49 How many years were you at CNN?

Don Lemon 13:50 Almost 17 years.

Trevor Noah 13:51 17 years.

Eugene Daniels 13:52 Whoa.

Don Lemon 13:52 Almost 17 years, yeah.

Trevor Noah 13:53 Damn.

Don Lemon 13:54 Yeah. And, um, so it was weird. Like, I was like, "What do I do with my time?" But I don't miss having to second-guess, I don't know if you felt that way, maybe a little bit different because it was comedy. Kind of, but you were actually educating people in the news. Um, of, like, second-guessing, third-guessing, fourth-guessing-

Eugene Daniels 14:10 Mm-hmm

Don Lemon 14:10 ... everything that came out of my mouth because I represented a brand and, like, 4,500 employees around the world.

Trevor Noah 14:15 Interesting.

Don Lemon 14:15 Some of them in war zones, so I had to be careful about what I said.

Eugene Daniels 14:18 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 14:18 Now I can just say, "Fuck you," or whatever it is. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 14:21 [laughs] Don's been waiting.

Don Lemon 14:24 And, [laughs] and, or whatever.

Trevor Noah 14:25 I'll grow my hair and fuck you.

Don Lemon 14:26 Yeah. [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 14:29 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 14:29 Like, today-

Eugene Daniels 14:30 That's so good

Trevor Noah 14:31 ... as I was recording my show today, there was a, you know, the, um, on the official, uh, Democratic, uh, Twitter account-

Don Lemon 14:37 Yeah

Trevor Noah 14:37 ... the woman posted, um, about Stephen Miller, "Shut up you ugly fuck." And I got to talk about that and I said, "Yeah, Stephen Miller is an ugly fuck."

Eugene Daniels 14:44 Bam.

Don Lemon 14:45 Right? [laughs] But I could-

Trevor Noah 14:45 Oh, you wouldn't have been able to say that-

Don Lemon 14:47 No.

Eugene Daniels 14:47 Never

Trevor Noah 14:48 ... how would you have covered it on CNN?

Don Lemon 14:49 I-

Trevor Noah 14:49 What would you have said?

Don Lemon 14:50 I, on CNN I would have said, uh-

Eugene Daniels 14:52 Unattractive fornicator

Don Lemon 14:53 ... I would have said what? [laughs]

Trevor Noah 14:57 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 15:01 [laughs]

Don Lemon 15:01 Unattractive fornicator.

Trevor Noah 15:04 [laughs]

Don Lemon 15:05 Oh, my God.

Trevor Noah 15:06 Oh, man.

Eugene Daniels 15:07 I, I'm sorry.

Don Lemon 15:07 Oh.

Trevor Noah 15:07 What do you think you would have said?

Don Lemon 15:08 Uh, I, basically I would have handled it similarly to how I handled it today.

Trevor Noah 15:12 Okay.

Don Lemon 15:13 I said, actually, it's not really about physical attractiveness, although, you know.

Trevor Noah 15:17 Mm.

Don Lemon 15:18 It's also about the policies that he espouses and what he's putting into place, and that, you know, him, um, being, uh, Islamophobic-

Trevor Noah 15:26 Yeah

Don Lemon 15:26 ... uh, his racism, his sexism, his treatment of immigrants, whatever. Those are ugly qualities, so yeah, Stephen Miller-

Trevor Noah 15:35 That does make you unattractive

Don Lemon 15:36 ... shut up you ugly fuck.

Eugene Daniels 15:38 Interesting. Okay.

Don Lemon 15:38 Yeah, so, but I would not have said-

Eugene Daniels 15:40 You're such a diplomat, Don.

Trevor Noah 15:40 Yeah, he is.

Don Lemon 15:41 Yeah, but I would have said, you know-

Eugene Daniels 15:42 That's amazing

Don Lemon 15:42 ... I'm gonna talk about, I said, I'm gonna talk about Stephen Miller and calling him that. Look, d- the Democratic Party can do what they want-

Trevor Noah 15:48 Yeah

Don Lemon 15:48 ... but let me tell you why Stephen Miller is ugly, and I'm not talking about physically the way he looks.

Trevor Noah 15:53 Yes.

Eugene Daniels 15:53 Right.

Trevor Noah 15:53 Yeah.

Don Lemon 15:53 This is how I think he's ugly.

Trevor Noah 15:54 Don.

Don Lemon 15:54 And that, I would have done that on CNN.

Trevor Noah 15:56 Damn. Took it there.

Don Lemon 15:56 But ain't nobody doing that now, 'cause they scared.

Trevor Noah 15:58 Yeah, everyone is scared, man.

Eugene Daniels 16:00 Except-

Trevor Noah 16:01 Everyone is scared.

Don Lemon 16:02 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 16:02 I saw, um, the woman whose segment got pulled by CBS, they just didn't renew her contract.

Don Lemon 16:07 Sharon Alphonse, yeah.

Trevor Noah 16:08 They, yeah. It, it-

Eugene Daniels 16:09 What did she do?

Don Lemon 16:11 She had a story on SEACAT, um, uh, just, uh, at, SEACAT, which is, I think some, um, uh, place where they're housing, um, immigrants-

Trevor Noah 16:20 Mm-hmm

Don Lemon 16:21 ... and detainees, and all that stuff at SEACAT. And then sh- they, the new boss comes in, came in, that was great grammar. The new boss came in and is, um, MAGA-coded. Uh, the, the, um, uh, the company and the, the folks who are running the company, and just pulled her segment, saying, "We need, we need to get a response from the White House, and we need to do more reporting," after it had already been vetted by everyone at 60 Minutes. Like, you don't get more vetting than 60 Minutes.

Eugene Daniels 16:52 Than 60 Minutes, yeah.

Trevor Noah 16:52 Yeah, you don't.

Don Lemon 16:53 So, uh, it was obvious what was happening, and she said, "W- what is going on here? This has been vetted by, you know, this number of people and it's gone through our process-

Trevor Noah 17:03 Mm-hmm

Don Lemon 17:03 ... and it's legit journalism. We all stand by it." And then they said no. Eventually they did, I think they

Don Lemon 17:10 ran it. I'm not sure if they ran it, but they ended up running it, um, in foreign countries.

Trevor Noah 17:16 Oh, in non-American-

Don Lemon 17:17 Outside of the US, and then I guess they didn't, whoever's there don't, they didn't realize that this is gonna run somewhere else.

Trevor Noah 17:22 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 17:22 Oh, wow.

Don Lemon 17:23 And so, yeah, she's gone.

Trevor Noah 17:25 Yeah. Everyone, everyone is scared.

Don Lemon 17:28 Everybody's scared.

Trevor Noah 17:29 What, what's disappointed me is it's equal parts scared and equal parts greed. You know what I mean?

Eugene Daniels 17:37 Explain the greed part.

Trevor Noah 17:38 So we say that everyone's scared.

Eugene Daniels 17:40 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 17:41 But I don't think it's only fear. I think a lot of people are putting their greed before the freedoms of the country, right? And, and a lot of these networks, these news networks, whether it's CBS, whether it's all of them, they're not just scared, they're also thinking about what they wanna do business-wise. They wanna acquire other companies.

Don Lemon 17:59 That's what it is.

Trevor Noah 17:59 They want mergers and acquisitions to go through.

Don Lemon 18:01 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 18:01 They want-

Don Lemon 18:01 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 18:01 ... so because they want that to happen, they're not saying anything.

Eugene Daniels 18:05 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 18:06 But they should be saying something, but they won't say something because they want their deals to go through. So, uh, it, it's like it's half scared-

Eugene Daniels 18:13 Mm-hmm, half greed

Trevor Noah 18:14 ... I would argue the people on the ground, like the actual reporters and the journalists, they're scared because they're gonna get fired. You know, uh, did you see this thing where they said they're gonna, um- They actually w- they wanna subpoena people's records and, like, your private... 'Cause you know if you're a journalist, you know it better than we do. Explain it. If you, if you have a source, you don't have to reveal your source.

Don Lemon 18:33 You don't have to reveal your source.

Trevor Noah 18:34 Yeah, right? But now they're saying they wanna-

Don Lemon 18:35 Journalists have privileges. They have, you know, um, uh, privileges like that.

Trevor Noah 18:39 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 18:40 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 18:40 Right? Um, I'm going through it right now and I didn't even know about it.

Trevor Noah 18:44 Wait, what?

Don Lemon 18:44 Yeah. So when they, uh, you know, they arrested me in, in California, uh-

Trevor Noah 18:48 Yes. What, what happened there? What exactly happened?

Don Lemon 18:51 [laughs] Wow, this-

Trevor Noah 18:52 But you were G about it though.

Don Lemon 18:54 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 18:54 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 18:54 You were, like, thugged out. You're like, "I'm..."

Don Lemon 18:57 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 18:58 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 18:58 You didn't back down. I thought you were gonna be like, "Ah, ah, ah." But you were like-

Don Lemon 19:02 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 19:02 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 19:03 "Man, I'm going in, man. Going in though."

Don Lemon 19:08 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 19:08 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 19:11 Don Ju- Don Julio, I'm going in though. You were not scared at all, Don?

Don Lemon 19:16 No.

Trevor Noah 19:17 That was like-

Don Lemon 19:18 I was scared. It was, it was a bit frustrating but why would I be scared? I'm not scared. I'm not scared of anything.

Trevor Noah 19:21 I'm scared of jail.

Don Lemon 19:22 Why?

Trevor Noah 19:22 Don't, don't even...

Don Lemon 19:23 You're scared of jail?

Trevor Noah 19:23 Hey, yeah, jail.

Don Lemon 19:25 Jail? Oh.

Trevor Noah 19:27 Jail.

Don Lemon 19:27 Yeah. But then, then you think about, I think about the people who did go to jail so that I could be able to sit here and do this.

Trevor Noah 19:34 Hmm.

Don Lemon 19:34 Um, this is nothing compared to that. And look, I have agency, I have a platform, you know, I, um, I have resources that most people don't have. So if I became scared about what was happening, then what use am I to the people who really need me to not be scared?

Trevor Noah 19:53 Hmm. I like that.

Don Lemon 19:53 So, um, the... What happened was, uh, I went to Minneapolis. Actually I was on my way [laughs] . I blame Jesse Jackson. So I was on my [laughs] ...

Trevor Noah 20:02 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 20:02 [laughs]

Don Lemon 20:02 And I blame Dr. King.

Trevor Noah 20:04 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 20:04 [laughs]

Don Lemon 20:05 So [laughs] I had to go to Chicago because I was hosting the Dr. King breakfast, uh, sponsored by Jesse Jackson, the Rainbow Push-

Trevor Noah 20:11 Okay. Right, yeah

Don Lemon 20:11 ... in Chicago, so I was headed there. And I started talking, I was, you know, in the kitchen and Tim and I, we were, we were saying, "Oh, you know, I gotta go to Chicago," whatever, but Minneapolis is happening. He said, "Maybe you should make a stop over in Minneapolis. It's like..." And I said, "You know what? You're right. So I'm just gonna go there in the morning and then I'll go a day earlier."

Trevor Noah 20:27 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 20:27 "I'll go there and then I'll fly straight to Chicago." Right? I'll just go there for a day and be on the ground.

Trevor Noah 20:31 Yeah, yeah.

Don Lemon 20:31 I was on the ground for less than six hours or something or like that. And so I just went to report on what was happening and, uh, there was, uh, you know, they were at this center where they keep all the people that they detain. And so, but it was too early. I got there early in the morning, it was too early to go there. There was hardly anyone there. And I said, "Well, where am I gonna go? What am I gonna cover?" And there were people saying, "Oh, this is happening. You should go cover this."

Trevor Noah 20:55 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 20:55 And I said, "Okay, I'll go cover that." So-

Trevor Noah 20:57 And what was the this?

Don Lemon 20:58 That they... And, the, it was this clandestine operation, like the civil rights movement, where they show up and they disrupt.

Trevor Noah 21:05 Oh, got it. Okay.

Don Lemon 21:05 And so I showed up with them and I was like, "Oh, they're going into this church." And I said, "Oh, we're not gonna go and do anything until it happens, because then when it happens it becomes news."

Trevor Noah 21:14 Okay. Got it, got it, got it.

Don Lemon 21:15 So we do that, go in there, report, do the thing, that I had no connection to the people who were sponsoring this. I didn't know where we were going, uh, 'cause we had to follow them. And then, um, that was it. And then I started hearing things like, "Oh, we're gonna arrest him for disrupting, for going in and protesting and disrupting a religious service." I'm like, "I didn't do anything. I'm not a protester, I'm a journalist."

Trevor Noah 21:37 Hmm.

Don Lemon 21:37 And what if I had not been there to chronicle it for you? Right? If something had... Like, that's what we do.

Trevor Noah 21:42 Absolutely. Yeah, that's what you do.

Don Lemon 21:43 Journalists go where the news is. And I got, um, uh, a, a call from someone who, you know, has been doing this for a long time and he said, "You know what, Don? When John Miller," who was, um, you know, uh, in charge of communications for the NYPD and then he was a, the reporter at one point. He said, "When John Miller went into the cave with Osama bin Laden, he didn't become a terrorist."

Trevor Noah 22:03 Huh.

Don Lemon 22:03 "He was still a journalist."

Trevor Noah 22:04 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 22:05 "So when I went into the church to report, I didn't become a protester."

Trevor Noah 22:07 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 22:08 "I'm still a journalist." And I, somehow this administration doesn't understand that. So it was-

Trevor Noah 22:12 Understand or don't want it to happen?

Don Lemon 22:14 There you go.

Trevor Noah 22:15 Yeah.

Don Lemon 22:15 Or don't want to understand, which I think-

Trevor Noah 22:17 Yeah, exactly

Don Lemon 22:17 ... is even more pernicious, right? So, um, I c- they were saying, "Oh, we're gonna arrest him, they're gonna do this," and they went to two or three, maybe three different sources to get an arrest warrant for me and it didn't work. So they went to a grand jury, which is just normal everyday people, and it's a secretive process and so who knows what they presented to this-

Trevor Noah 22:37 Hmm

Don Lemon 22:37 ... grand jury in order to come up with an indictment for me. And so I was in the, in LA covering the Grammys. I had just come back from a Spotify party with the photographer who's here.

Trevor Noah 22:46 Yeah.

Don Lemon 22:46 I blame him. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 22:48 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 22:49 [laughs]

Don Lemon 22:49 His name is Anders and he's like, he- we were at the party and he's like-

Trevor Noah 22:51 Anders, Jesse Jackson, and Dr. King.

Don Lemon 22:53 Yeah. So he's [laughs] ..

Trevor Noah 22:55 We've got this list. We've got this list.

Eugene Daniels 22:57 [laughs]

Don Lemon 22:57 So Anders, Anders was like, "Hell, come on, one more, one more margarita, one more margarita." And I was listening to... Anders, who was it? The last person I saw? I forget who it was. I don't know if it was-

Eugene Daniels 23:06 It was, um, oh, I don't know.

Don Lemon 23:09 My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard.

Trevor Noah 23:11 Kelis.

Don Lemon 23:12 No.

Trevor Noah 23:13 [laughs]

Don Lemon 23:13 No. It's a new group or whatever.

Trevor Noah 23:15 Okay.

Eugene Daniels 23:15 Youngblood.

Don Lemon 23:16 Yeah. And so anyways, so, uh, watching them, it was great and then I go back-

Eugene Daniels 23:22 Cat's Eye.

Don Lemon 23:22 What?

Eugene Daniels 23:23 Cat's Eye.

Trevor Noah 23:23 Cat's Eye.

Don Lemon 23:24 Cat's Eye.

Trevor Noah 23:25 Okay.

Don Lemon 23:25 Cat's Eye, Cat's Eye.

Trevor Noah 23:25 Cat's Eye. Got it.

Don Lemon 23:25 So, uh, I get back to the hotel, I'm getting onto the elevator, and then I got bum rushed.

Trevor Noah 23:30 Hmm. That's how it happened. Oh, man.

Don Lemon 23:32 That's how it happened. And I was like, "What are you doing?" They said, "We're here to arrest you." I said, "Where's the warrant?" They didn't have one. They had to go outside and as I'm scuffling trying to get my bearings, uh, they had to go outside, get the FBI agent and he shows me a warrant on the phone.

Trevor Noah 23:45 Sh-

Don Lemon 23:45 Like a cop, a picture and I was like, "Okay, I don't know what that means." But anyway, and so anyway I ended up st- spending about 12 hours, uh, in custody and I came out and did what you said. But, um, you, you asked me what happened.

Trevor Noah 24:00 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 24:01 That's what happened. And right now they've had my phone for four months. They took my phone. They've had it for four months.

Trevor Noah 24:07 Like, like speaking to you right now they still have your phone?

Don Lemon 24:09 Oh, they still have my phone.

Trevor Noah 24:11 What do you think they're doing with it?

Don Lemon 24:12 They wanna go through to f- to find evidence. There's nothing there. There's-

Trevor Noah 24:16 But, but do they, do you give them the passwords? How does it work?

Don Lemon 24:18 Evidence of a conspiracy.

Trevor Noah 24:19 They don't need-

Don Lemon 24:19 No. They... Look-

Trevor Noah 24:20 What do you mean they don't need it?

Don Lemon 24:21 I can-

Eugene Daniels 24:21 They don't need a password.

Don Lemon 24:22 Yes, they do need a password.

Trevor Noah 24:23 In fact they do.

Don Lemon 24:23 But go on.

Trevor Noah 24:25 'Cause we- they, they're gonna have to use that software. I don't know if that software still works

Eugene Daniels 24:29 That's what I'm saying.

Don Lemon 24:29 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 24:29 What is it, Pegasus? Is that what it's called? I don't remember, but remember there's a software.

Eugene Daniels 24:33 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 24:33 I think it was first developed in Israel, and then it was, like, sent around the world, or people had bought it or whatever. But-

Don Lemon 24:39 I'll give you an exclusive.

Trevor Noah 24:40 Go.

Don Lemon 24:42 The hi- the newer iteration, the, the newer the iteration of the iPhone, the harder it is to get into it.

Trevor Noah 24:49 Oh.

Don Lemon 24:49 They can't get into my phone.

Trevor Noah 24:51 Well, there you go.

Eugene Daniels 24:52 They won't-

Trevor Noah 24:52 Did they, did they ask you for the password?

Don Lemon 24:54 They, eventually they had to ask me.

Eugene Daniels 24:55 They have to ask you.

Trevor Noah 24:55 Did they try and make you look at your phone?

Don Lemon 24:56 No. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 24:57 I've always wondered if they do that.

Don Lemon 24:58 Well, I don't have it. But if I did-

Trevor Noah 24:59 No, but I'm saying b- 'cause I'm saying, like, I wonder, you ... b- because there's a weird thing ... I, I, there's a, there's a ... If I understand American law correctly, apparently they cannot force you to give them your password.

Don Lemon 25:14 Right.

Eugene Daniels 25:14 They can ask you.

Trevor Noah 25:15 Y- yeah, but they, but they still can't force you.

Eugene Daniels 25:17 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 25:18 But if it's fingerprint or face-

Eugene Daniels 25:20 Yeah

Trevor Noah 25:20 ... then you do have to do it.

Don Lemon 25:22 Mm. I don't know about that.

Trevor Noah 25:24 And, and I don't know what, I don't understand what the difference is.

Don Lemon 25:26 I don't know about that.

Trevor Noah 25:27 I'll, I'll look it up now.

Don Lemon 25:28 But I know they can't.

Trevor Noah 25:28 I pr- I promise you. I promise you this.

Eugene Daniels 25:29 Where you gonna look it up?

Trevor Noah 25:30 Uh, my man-

Eugene Daniels 25:31 On your phone?

Trevor Noah 25:31 I got, I got you, bruh. [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 25:32 [laughs]

Don Lemon 25:32 On your iPhone?

Trevor Noah 25:33 Don't even worry. I got you.

Don Lemon 25:34 Tre- what's your password?

Eugene Daniels 25:35 I got you.

Trevor Noah 25:36 Bruh, don't even worry. I got you.

Eugene Daniels 25:38 826.

Trevor Noah 25:38 I got you. I got you.

Don Lemon 25:39 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 25:39 There's something. Uh, let me, let me see.

Don Lemon 25:41 Why don't you hold it up to your face?

Eugene Daniels 25:42 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 25:43 Let me s- no, it alread- it unlocked when I looked at it.

Don Lemon 25:45 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 25:47 Unlocked when ... I've got nothing to hide. Don't worry about it.

Eugene Daniels 25:48 You've got nothing to hide?

Trevor Noah 25:49 Ha, me.

Eugene Daniels 25:50 Yeah, the last thing-

Trevor Noah 25:51 Ha. Ha

Eugene Daniels 25:51 ... I want is anyone taking my phone.

Trevor Noah 25:53 Uh, w- what are they gonna find?

Eugene Daniels 25:54 Hey, hey. [laughs]

Don Lemon 25:56 Uh, oh. Where's your phone?

Trevor Noah 25:57 Eugene.

Eugene Daniels 25:58 In fact, in fact-

Trevor Noah 25:58 You cannot get prosecuted-

Eugene Daniels 25:59 In fact, I'm even pitching-

Trevor Noah 26:00 ... for dick pics, Eugene

Don Lemon 26:01 That's what I was gonna say

Eugene Daniels 26:02 ... I, I'm even pitching for-

Trevor Noah 26:03 For, for, for penis portraits, as you call them.

Don Lemon 26:06 Or butt shots.

Eugene Daniels 26:07 Ass. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 26:07 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 26:08 I, I got it. [laughs]

Don Lemon 26:10 I don't ju-

Trevor Noah 26:11 We're on a night.

Don Lemon 26:12 I don't judge. I don't judge.

Trevor Noah 26:13 [laughs]

Don Lemon 26:14 I, I don't judge.

Trevor Noah 26:15 Uh.

Don Lemon 26:15 I don't know who's a top and who's a bottom.

Trevor Noah 26:17 [laughs]

Don Lemon 26:18 And, and it's not my business. I don't care.

Trevor Noah 26:20 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 26:21 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 26:21 Uh, let's see here. I'll, I'll fi- I'll find it. I'll f-

Don Lemon 26:23 Or a side. You could be a side.

Eugene Daniels 26:24 You've just literally done what we do to each other all the time. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 26:29 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 26:29 Why does it sound so bad? Is this what it sounds like when we ... [laughs]

Don Lemon 26:32 So while you're looking at it-

Trevor Noah 26:32 Wait, did you say a side?

Don Lemon 26:33 The, yeah, a side. You don't know what a side is?

Trevor Noah 26:35 No, I've never heard of that.

Don Lemon 26:36 It's just like, you, there's no top or bottom. It's-

Eugene Daniels 26:38 Yeah

Don Lemon 26:39 ... you're a side.

Trevor Noah 26:39 That's a thing?

Don Lemon 26:39 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 26:40 I didn't know that.

Don Lemon 26:41 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 26:42 So that-

Don Lemon 26:42 I knew, I knew there was top and bottom. I didn't know that there was a side. There's a side.

Trevor Noah 26:45 Huh.

Eugene Daniels 26:45 Wait, you said a side does what?

Don Lemon 26:47 A side just-

Eugene Daniels 26:47 No, doesn't

Don Lemon 26:47 ... kinda lays there on the side, like, you're, you know. Or you take care of yourself or each other.

Trevor Noah 26:54 Wow. I would've gone with the middle. I don't know why they went with a side.

Don Lemon 26:58 It's called a side.

Trevor Noah 26:59 But a side is a

Trevor Noah 27:00 better name.

Don Lemon 27:00 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 27:01 It's, we, you know why? It evokes an image in your head.

Don Lemon 27:03 Yeah. But I mean, if you have top, bottom, you want a side. You don't wanna be, like, in the middle. I don't, I don't-

Eugene Daniels 27:08 In between.

Trevor Noah 27:09 I guess so. But I, that's, that's what I would've thought.

Eugene Daniels 27:11 [laughs]

Don Lemon 27:12 So while you're looking, let me tell you a thing.

Trevor Noah 27:13 Yeah.

Don Lemon 27:14 So, uh, I did not realize it until yesterday that they had filed secretly, um, a subpoena for my YouTube channel to get my subscribers and members or subscribers-

Eugene Daniels 27:30 Information

Don Lemon 27:31 ... names, addresses, and phone numbers, and the judge said, "No."

Trevor Noah 27:35 Guys, what are we ...

Don Lemon 27:37 The judge said no. But why would they, why would they want that? Either they want it to kill my business, to intimidate me, or to intimidate people who watch me. It's crazy.

Trevor Noah 27:48 Guys, what are we doing?

Don Lemon 27:48 Or to create a list.

Eugene Daniels 27:49 Did you find it?

Don Lemon 27:50 What are we doing?

Trevor Noah 27:51 I found it. So the legality of, um, compelled unlocking hinges on protections against unreasonable searches, Fourth Amendment, and self-incrimination, Fifth Amendment.

Don Lemon 27:59 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 27:59 So passcodes and, passcodes and pins. The Fifth Amendment generally protects your testimonial acts.

Don Lemon 28:05 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 28:05 Okay? So courts across the country widely agree that the government cannot force you to hand over a passcode or a pin, as doing so forces you to reveal the contents of your own mind.

Eugene Daniels 28:16 Right.

Trevor Noah 28:17 All right? That's the key thing.

Eugene Daniels 28:18 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 28:18 So you're testifying against yourself-

Don Lemon 28:20 Ah

Trevor Noah 28:20 ... by giving your password.

Eugene Daniels 28:21 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 28:22 However, the law regarding biometric locks is highly fractured. Biometrics are generally treated as physical evidence, like DNA swabs or a lineup.

Eugene Daniels 28:30 Mm.

Trevor Noah 28:31 Meaning some courts have ruled that police can physically force you to unlock your phone using your face or your thumb.

Eugene Daniels 28:37 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 28:38 Because they're saying, "That's not the contents of your mind."

Eugene Daniels 28:40 Yes.

Trevor Noah 28:41 You're not testifying against ... It's essentially like putting your fingerprints down.

Don Lemon 28:44 I think you could fight that. 'Cause I would say-

Trevor Noah 28:45 It's fractured

Don Lemon 28:46 ... I would say, "I had to think about this."

Trevor Noah 28:48 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 28:49 Be- when I looked at the phone, I had to think about what ... [laughs]

Trevor Noah 28:52 Depends on the court. Depends on the court.

Don Lemon 28:54 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 28:54 But it's literally ... So remember when people were getting, uh, detained at the border? There was a moment where-

Don Lemon 28:59 Yeah

Trevor Noah 28:59 ... it was, like, a, a real flare-up.

Don Lemon 29:00 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 29:01 The message they gave everyone was, "Hey, make sure you don't have Face ID and Touch ID and everything on your phone. Make sure your phone just uses a passcode because they can't force you-

Eugene Daniels 29:10 Mm

Trevor Noah 29:10 ... to give, um, them a passcode."

Don Lemon 29:12 Interesting.

Trevor Noah 29:13 So I was surprised that they didn't just be like, "Yo, Don, look here."

Don Lemon 29:15 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 29:16 "Hey, Don. Hey, Don, can I ask you, uh, can I ask you a question?"

Don Lemon 29:19 I don't think they even had a warrant yet when they took it.

Trevor Noah 29:21 Damn. Four months. So what have you ... Are there some people that you now haven't spoken to for four months and you're happy about it?

Don Lemon 29:29 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 29:31 [laughs] Good one. That's a good one.

Trevor Noah 29:32 Come on, bruh.

Don Lemon 29:32 There's some.

Trevor Noah 29:33 What a great excuse to get people out of your life.

Eugene Daniels 29:35 Absolutely.

Don Lemon 29:35 No, seriously.

Trevor Noah 29:36 I wanted to get back to you, Eugene.

Eugene Daniels 29:38 But-

Trevor Noah 29:38 Do you know what happened to my phone?

Don Lemon 29:39 But it's true. That did happen because the phone is, what is it called? Um, iOS.

Trevor Noah 29:45 Mm-hmm.

Eugene Daniels 29:46 Yeah.

Don Lemon 29:46 And some of the text messa- messages come through the iOS system rather than just your phone number.

Trevor Noah 29:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Don Lemon 29:52 So I don't get every single text.

Trevor Noah 29:54 Yeah.

Don Lemon 29:54 I haven't gotten it. Sometimes I'll be sitting in front of the computer and something, I'll be like, "Where did this come from?"

Trevor Noah 29:58 Exactly.

Eugene Daniels 29:58 India.

Don Lemon 29:59 Yeah.

Don Lemon 30:00 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 30:02 [laughs] Exactly.

Don Lemon 30:02 Nigeria.

Trevor Noah 30:06 It's ... [laughs]

Don Lemon 30:06 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 30:06 Don't think we forgot, neh?

Trevor Noah 30:08 Forgot what?

Eugene Daniels 30:09 The business idea.

Trevor Noah 30:10 Okay, so my pitch was pretty simple.

Eugene Daniels 30:11 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 30:11 It's a really simple idea. Business or societal-

Eugene Daniels 30:15 Societal

Trevor Noah 30:15 ... proposal.

Eugene Daniels 30:16 Solution. Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 30:17 If our homes are as empty as they are, and, and, and not in, like, a negative way, just most people, you wake up in the morning-

Eugene Daniels 30:25 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 30:25 ... you leave the house to go to work.

Eugene Daniels 30:27 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 30:27 You only come back in the evening. Your house was empty for the entire day. The main reason you don't want somebody in your home is because you think they're gonna break things, change things, steal things-

Eugene Daniels 30:37 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 30:37 ... uh, is, smell up the place, whatever it is

Eugene Daniels 30:39 They smell up the place. [laughs]

Don Lemon 30:39 Use up your air conditioning.

Trevor Noah 30:40 All of this. All of this.

Eugene Daniels 30:42 Smell up the place.

Trevor Noah 30:42 But, but imagine if we could find a way to pair each other up with your perfect house partner, someone who lives exactly like you. Exactly like you. Like, and there's gotta be somebody, 'cause the, we're not that interesting or unique as people. There's gotta be somebody who has the-

Eugene Daniels 30:57 Your lifestyle Tinder match

Trevor Noah 30:57 ... the same vibe. Yeah, your lifestyle Tinder match. They-

Eugene Daniels 31:00 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 31:00 ... they use your colognes. They would sort of dress like you. They, you know what I mean? And we, and we-

Eugene Daniels 31:05 You, but you're not there.

Trevor Noah 31:06 Yes. You, but they work night shift.

Eugene Daniels 31:09 Opposite shifts of you.

Trevor Noah 31:10 Opposite-

Eugene Daniels 31:10 Yeah

Trevor Noah 31:10 ... shift of you. And so then whenever, like, you leave your house-

Eugene Daniels 31:13 They come in

Trevor Noah 31:13 ... they come in, and whenever you come back, they leave. And then you guys-

Eugene Daniels 31:18 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 31:18 ... you get to, like, help each other pay.

Eugene Daniels 31:20 Mm.

Trevor Noah 31:20 And then homes are not sitting empty, and you need less housing. 'Cause right now we have a housing crisis, but if you think about it, most housing is sitting empty the whole day, and then you just have your perfect partner that's coming in.

Eugene Daniels 31:30 But if I have a girlfriend, do they talk to her while I'm not there? Or-

Trevor Noah 31:33 No, no, no, no, no

Eugene Daniels 31:34 ... where do we draw the line here?

Trevor Noah 31:35 We'll, we'll have to figure this out-

Eugene Daniels 31:37 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 31:37 ... is what I'm saying.

Don Lemon 31:37 So you have to live alone.

Trevor Noah 31:39 This is-

Don Lemon 31:39 'Cause that sounds like-

Eugene Daniels 31:39 Ja, I'm on it now

Don Lemon 31:40 ... pretty much every marriage I know is what you're saying. That sounds like me.

Trevor Noah 31:42 No, there's a, there's a... Not everyone has someone that just stays in their house.

Eugene Daniels 31:45 Contact me, ladies.

Trevor Noah 31:45 Your girlfriend is not always just at your house. That's what-

Eugene Daniels 31:47 Hey.

Trevor Noah 31:48 That's a s- [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 31:49 Hey. Hey, hey, hey.

Don Lemon 31:52 Is your girlfriend always at your house?

Eugene Daniels 31:54 I don't know.

Trevor Noah 31:54 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 31:54 Hey. Don, hey.

Don Lemon 31:56 Are you-

Eugene Daniels 31:57 Hey.

Don Lemon 31:57 Sometimes are you...

Trevor Noah 31:58 [laughs]

Don Lemon 31:59 Sometimes are you like, "Okay, I need a break."

Trevor Noah 32:01 [laughs]

Don Lemon 32:02 So w-

Eugene Daniels 32:02 Do I say that, Trevor, that sometimes I need a break? How did... [laughs]

Don Lemon 32:06 But, but you know what?

Eugene Daniels 32:08 [laughs]

Don Lemon 32:08 When you said people need a break, I do think that couples need a break that way. Sometimes, like-

Trevor Noah 32:12 Need

Don Lemon 32:12 ... uh, sometimes... Need.

Trevor Noah 32:14 Definitely.

Don Lemon 32:14 Sometimes I'll go in the guest room and snooze, and watch TV, and sleep in there, and, and maybe one of-

Trevor Noah 32:19 But what about-

Don Lemon 32:19 ... the dogs will follow me in, but it's-

Trevor Noah 32:21 Can I-

Don Lemon 32:21 And I get a great night's sleep

Trevor Noah 32:21 ... actually, can I ask you a question, though?

Don Lemon 32:23 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 32:23 How, so how does your husband respond to this?

Don Lemon 32:25 At first he was weird about it.

Trevor Noah 32:27 Okay.

Don Lemon 32:27 And I, I said... But here's the thing, Trevor. I, it took me, I didn't get married until I was in my 50s.

Trevor Noah 32:33 Wow.

Don Lemon 32:33 So I had been-

Trevor Noah 32:34 You're over 50? I wa- that's what I was saying wow to.

Eugene Daniels 32:37 Ah, wena.

Trevor Noah 32:38 No, no, Don, I mean-

Don Lemon 32:39 Do you want-

Trevor Noah 32:39 I mean for real

Don Lemon 32:40 ... do you want me to hold that?

Eugene Daniels 32:40 You need, you need to come back home.

Don Lemon 32:41 Should I, should I tell my age?

Trevor Noah 32:42 If we walked in the streets together now-

Eugene Daniels 32:44 No way, Don

Trevor Noah 32:44 ... the three of us, I'm not even gassing you up.

Don Lemon 32:45 Yeah

Trevor Noah 32:45 ... if we walked together in the streets, people would not go, "Why are they with that old guy?"

Don Lemon 32:50 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 32:50 No way.

Don Lemon 32:51 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 32:51 You-

Trevor Noah 32:51 They would just be like, "Your friend."

Don Lemon 32:53 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 32:53 They might even say your brother to me.

Don Lemon 32:54 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 32:54 They'd be like, "Uh, you, you are here with... I think it's your brother."

Don Lemon 32:57 And I would go, I'd try to do your accent, but I can't.

Trevor Noah 32:59 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 33:00 [laughs]

Don Lemon 33:00 That is my brother. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 33:04 I don't-

Don Lemon 33:04 I don't know. Should I tell my age here? I don't know.

Trevor Noah 33:06 You can tell your age.

Eugene Daniels 33:06 Tell your age.

Don Lemon 33:06 I'm 60. I turned 60 this year.

Eugene Daniels 33:07 No way.

Don Lemon 33:09 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 33:12 Man.

Trevor Noah 33:13 Don, you look good.

Eugene Daniels 33:14 Yeah.

Don Lemon 33:14 Thank you.

Trevor Noah 33:14 Like, you look good good.

Eugene Daniels 33:15 100%.

Don Lemon 33:16 Thank you.

Trevor Noah 33:16 Like, I'm not aside, but I'm just saying, man.

Don Lemon 33:18 Thank you. I was gonna say-

Trevor Noah 33:19 I would. I'm not, I'm not aside, but Don, yo, you look good.

Don Lemon 33:23 I'm married, Trevor.

Trevor Noah 33:24 [laughs]

Don Lemon 33:25 Back off. No. [laughs] Thank you. I, thank you.

Trevor Noah 33:28 Damn.

Don Lemon 33:28 I appreciate that. It's weird to say that-

Trevor Noah 33:30 That's amazing, Don

Don Lemon 33:30 ... because I don't feel that at all.

Trevor Noah 33:32 No, no, no. You look it.

Eugene Daniels 33:33 You look it.

Trevor Noah 33:33 You look the Pharrell of broadcasters.

Don Lemon 33:35 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 33:37 How-

Don Lemon 33:37 I'm a Pharrellcaster. What?

Trevor Noah 33:39 Look at your-

Eugene Daniels 33:40 How?

Trevor Noah 33:40 ... look at your skin.

Eugene Daniels 33:40 Yes.

Trevor Noah 33:40 Look at your, like, everything.

Don Lemon 33:42 Not, not a stitch of makeup. That's one thing I do not miss about corporate.

Trevor Noah 33:46 Yo, the makeup was terrible.

Don Lemon 33:47 Oh my God.

Trevor Noah 33:48 Yo, the makeup was terrible.

Eugene Daniels 33:49 Apparently it-

Trevor Noah 33:50 Cake.

Eugene Daniels 33:50 Inne?

Trevor Noah 33:50 It cakes your skin.

Don Lemon 33:51 And you don't need it.

Trevor Noah 33:52 It's, it cakes your skin, bro.

Don Lemon 33:54 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 33:54 So, so you tell your husband, like, look, after how many years of being together do you say, "I think sometimes we needed a timeout"?

Don Lemon 34:01 Uh, I don't re- s- say I need a timeout. I just go-

Eugene Daniels 34:03 What did you say?

Don Lemon 34:03 I just go in the guest room. I'm like, "Ah, I need, I need-"

Eugene Daniels 34:05 But the first time it happened, Don.

Don Lemon 34:07 Oh, he's like, "You're not-"

Eugene Daniels 34:07 'Cause I need to remember there was a time-

Don Lemon 34:08 "You're not sleeping in here with us." I'm like, "I'm c- I'm right next door. Like, relax." And then I've said, "I'm just gonna go and watch TV for a little bit, and then..." I, you have to, like, ease in. And then-

Trevor Noah 34:16 Oh

Don Lemon 34:16 ... he fell asleep-

Trevor Noah 34:17 That's the technique

Don Lemon 34:18 ... and then I didn't. And sometimes I would wake up before he would-

Eugene Daniels 34:20 Are you taking notes?

Don Lemon 34:21 ... woke up and go in.

Trevor Noah 34:21 This is actually great.

Don Lemon 34:22 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 34:22 I'm taking notes for sure.

Don Lemon 34:23 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 34:24 Wait. People that marry each other and live together, they first start by dating, right?

Trevor Noah 34:28 Yeah.

Don Lemon 34:28 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 34:28 They hang out.

Don Lemon 34:29 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 34:29 And then sleepovers happen.

Don Lemon 34:31 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 34:31 Then stay-overs happen.

Don Lemon 34:33 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 34:33 Then a person goes, "But I think I like having you around. Let's do this thing every day." How do we go from, "I'll see you on a Tuesday, I'll see you the whole week, I'll see you the whole year," to, "I think I need three days or two hours apart from you"?

Don Lemon 34:46 I charge $130 an hour.

Eugene Daniels 34:48 Oh, come on, Don.

Don Lemon 34:49 So you wanna...

Trevor Noah 34:49 [laughs]

Don Lemon 34:50 So let me tell you.

Eugene Daniels 34:51 Ah, Don.

Don Lemon 34:51 I've had lots of therapy.

Eugene Daniels 34:52 [laughs]

Don Lemon 34:53 Every week sometimes. Um, how do you go from that? I think that's, that's a choice. And I th- whatever works for whatever relationship that, r- relationship you're in. I told him, I'm like, "I'm not good with sleeping in the same bed with someone. I just, I don't sleep well. I w-"

Eugene Daniels 35:07 When you started dating or now when you're married?

Don Lemon 35:09 Always. And I just said-

Eugene Daniels 35:10 Oh, it's always been-

Don Lemon 35:10 ... I had been single for so long and able to walk into my house and just do, if I wanna, like, drop my underwear at the floor, at the door, I don't do that. But I, you know, I j- it, I was just alone for so long, I think I just got used to it. And also, it's weird because I am a loner. People think, like-

Trevor Noah 35:26 Oh

Don Lemon 35:26 ... you're this, I'm this extrovert. It's, so I'm a sort of extrovert introvert. I don't know what you call that.

Trevor Noah 35:30 Yeah, I can relate to that. Yeah.

Don Lemon 35:31 Um, but I actually really love being by myself.

Trevor Noah 35:35 It's amazing.

Don Lemon 35:35 And that doesn't mean I love my husband any less-

Trevor Noah 35:37 Mm-hmm

Don Lemon 35:37 ... and I don't wanna be married to him, but I love, I am very content being alone.

Trevor Noah 35:40 People don't understand that. It's amazing.

Eugene Daniels 35:41 Then how did you make that transition then? 'Cause if you like being alone, you don't mind your own company, this is the guy that you chose. You're like, "Let's do this thing." Whose idea was living together?

Don Lemon 35:50 Uh. [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 35:52 [laughs] 'Cause there's always one person that goes, "This would be nice every day."

Don Lemon 35:55 W-

Eugene Daniels 35:56 Like, "I love ice cream."

Don Lemon 35:58 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 35:58 Every day. [laughs]

Don Lemon 36:01 My fee is going up to 150.

Eugene Daniels 36:03 Oh, yeah. No. [laughs]

Don Lemon 36:04 Uh, I think he decided. I mean, we're, [laughs] we're like lesbians. Like, at the third date it was, he, like, moved in. It was like he had a moving truck. No, um-

Trevor Noah 36:12 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 36:13 [laughs]

Don Lemon 36:13 [laughs] He kind of just li- I would come up... And remember, I worked nights, and I would come home, like, after midnight because I worked late at CNN. I w- they had the 10:00 to usually midnight hour. And first couple times I'd come home [laughs] and he'd be on my couch. I'm like, "Oh, hey. All right." Then I was like, "I guess I can't, you know... I guess it's us, because what if I had invited somebody over?"

Trevor Noah 36:33 [laughs]

Don Lemon 36:33 Um, and I was like, "H- the, how'd you get in?" He goes, "The other doorman." It was fine, I mean, because we had... He had been coming over. The doorman knew him or whatever. And then he started bringing his laundry over. I was like, I said, "You really like me because I have a washer and dryer in my apartment [laughs] in my condo, not because you, you know, really knew us." Uh, that was the joke. But I think he decided that, and I'm okay with it. I'm okay with that. Someone has to decide. Someone has to make the move.

Trevor Noah 36:57 Mm.

Don Lemon 36:58 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 36:59 Then at some point, you're like, "I think I'll be in the other room hanging out." Then he was like, "But I-"

Don Lemon 37:03 No, not all the time. Every once in a while. You know, like, if you're... If someone goes on a business trip, you're like, "Phew. I get two days."

Trevor Noah 37:10 [laughs]

Don Lemon 37:11 I get two days in the bed by myself.

Trevor Noah 37:12 It's true, though.

Eugene Daniels 37:12 Can you relate?

Trevor Noah 37:12 Yeah. You know, you know why. So if you, if you are an introvert-

Eugene Daniels 37:16 Yeah

Trevor Noah 37:16 ... one of the things people take for granted is that your battery is charged differently to an extrovert's.

Don Lemon 37:20 Mm-hmm.

Eugene Daniels 37:21 Right.

Trevor Noah 37:21 So extroverts, in broad strokes, are people who ga- gain energy from being with other people.

Don Lemon 37:28 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 37:29 So the more they're with other people-

Eugene Daniels 37:30 Ah

Trevor Noah 37:30 ... the more energy they get, and the more people that come in, the more energy they get.

Eugene Daniels 37:33 Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Trevor Noah 37:33 So if you, if you're with an extrovert at a party, you'll see this. The more people w- who walk into the room, the more energy they get. The more energy they get-

Don Lemon 37:40 Yeah

Trevor Noah 37:40 ... the more energy they get.

Eugene Daniels 37:41 They come alive.

Trevor Noah 37:41 The more... And if you're an introvert, you'll notice the opposite.

Eugene Daniels 37:43 Yeah, you're like, "Ah. I'm feeling down."

Trevor Noah 37:44 When the party only has, like, 10 people, you're good.

Don Lemon 37:46 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 37:46 15, 20, 25, 30, 45-

Don Lemon 37:49 Yeah

Trevor Noah 37:49 ... and then you're like, "Uh, when are we going?"

Don Lemon 37:51 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 37:51 "W- okay-

Don Lemon 37:52 That's me

Trevor Noah 37:52 ... when are we, when are we going home? I'm ready. I'm ready." The extrovert's like, "The party just started."

Don Lemon 37:56 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 37:57 So when you're an introvert, even if you are with your person-

Eugene Daniels 38:01 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 38:02 ... sometimes you just need to be by yourself to recharge.

Eugene Daniels 38:06 And then go back to them again.

Trevor Noah 38:06 It's not about the other person. You just wanna recharge yourself and then come back to being with other people.

Don Lemon 38:12 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 38:12 So I can completely relate to that.

Don Lemon 38:14 And you know what? This complicates it-

Trevor Noah 38:15 Mm-hmm

Don Lemon 38:15 ... if you're in the public eye and you're an introvert because everyone, people are like, "Oh-

Eugene Daniels 38:20 And people assume

Don Lemon 38:20 ... oh my God. Hey, Don. Hi. Hi, Trevor.

Eugene Daniels 38:22 Yeah, people assume.

Don Lemon 38:22 Hi. Hi. Can I get a picture? Can we do a selfie?" And you're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." So when you get home or away from that-

Trevor Noah 38:28 Yeah, that's draining you the whole time

Don Lemon 38:28 ... it's draining you the whole time, so then you're like, "Okay, I just wanna sit on the couch," and if someone comes and sit next to you, it's okay, but then you want, like, it would be great just to have my space so that I can...

Trevor Noah 38:38 Yeah.

Don Lemon 38:40 Yeah, because at, you know, I, you, we have to be on sometimes.

Trevor Noah 38:44 Yes. Yeah.

Don Lemon 38:45 We have to be on.

Eugene Daniels 38:46 What's the perfect match for the type of personalities that you guys described, an introvert, extrovert? What would be the perfect personality to be around you?

Don Lemon 38:54 I think you adapt. It's not really a perfect personality.

Eugene Daniels 38:56 Mm.

Don Lemon 38:56 You just have to adapt, but because if you have someone, both of you are the same thing, I don't know, maybe that makes you closer or the, at least physically.

Trevor Noah 39:04 Yeah.

Don Lemon 39:05 But I don't know. I just think it's... I don't know if there's a perfect match.

Trevor Noah 39:07 Is your husband an extrovert?

Don Lemon 39:09 Uh, it's weird. Yeah, I think he doesn't realize he's an extrovert, but-

Trevor Noah 39:14 Yeah, he made friends with the doorman

Don Lemon 39:15 ... yeah.

Trevor Noah 39:16 Mm.

Don Lemon 39:16 That's true, actually. My husband is, um, a little bit more sociable than I am, but, um, I have a very large group of friends-

Trevor Noah 39:25 Yeah

Don Lemon 39:25 ... that we hang out with in the city, and h- my friends have become his friends. And so, um, I, I find that he likes to entertain more. He likes to go to dinner-

Trevor Noah 39:36 This makes sense, yeah

Don Lemon 39:36 ... and all, and I would be, I- it's, I'm like, "Uh, Uber Eats, Seamless. Like, what are we gonna do tonight?" [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 39:42 Huh? Huh?

Trevor Noah 39:43 Bro, he, he takes me out.

Don Lemon 39:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 39:45 He force- Eugene forces me-

Don Lemon 39:47 Oh

Trevor Noah 39:47 ... to go out.

Don Lemon 39:48 That's what happened at the-

Trevor Noah 39:48 A lot of my, a lot of my friends-

Don Lemon 39:49 At the Grammys

Trevor Noah 39:50 ... yeah

Don Lemon 39:50 ... they, they were like, "Let's go to this party." I'm like, "Okay, I'll go."

Trevor Noah 39:52 And look what happened. We got arrested.

Don Lemon 39:53 Look what, and look at what happened. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 39:54 Look at what happened. I keep telling you, this is why we don't go outside. We're gonna get arrested, bro.

Don Lemon 39:58 Stay your ass at home.

Trevor Noah 39:58 I keep telling you. All my, all my extrovert friends, I'm like, "Where are we going? Where are we going?"

Don Lemon 40:04 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 40:04 Eugene is like, "Come on. Are we ordering in again? Come on. Let's eat out. It's you, it's Lawrence, everyone. Let's go out. Come on."

Don Lemon 40:12 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 40:12 That's how you go to jail, bro.

Don Lemon 40:13 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 40:14 If Nelson Mandela got Uber Eats, he would've never went to Robben Island.

Don Lemon 40:17 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 40:17 When did they catch Nelson Mandela? Where was Nelson Mandela? Driving, outside. 27 years in prison. If that man got Uber Eats-

Eugene Daniels 40:25 Oh, man. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 40:25 ... he would've been comfortable in his house, enjoying himself.

Don Lemon 40:27 He, he wouldn't be going to the restaurant and trying, trying to find some sustenance.

Trevor Noah 40:30 Trying... He would be enjoying himself.

Eugene Daniels 40:31 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 40:31 "Ah, what a great time I'm having. Ah, ha, that's perfect or whatever." He'd be at home enjoying himself. 27 years, Eugene. [upbeat music]

Don Lemon 40:51 Can I ask you something?

Trevor Noah 40:52 Yeah.

Don Lemon 40:52 I know this is not my show. I'm gonna ask you a question.

Trevor Noah 40:54 Ask... What do you mean? This is, this is-

Don Lemon 40:56 I'm joking. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 40:56 This is literally your show. Do whatever you want.

Don Lemon 40:58 Do you miss being in

Don Lemon 41:00 corporate media?

Trevor Noah 41:02 Not at all. Not at all. It, it's-

Don Lemon 41:04 You were surprised that I said that, too.

Trevor Noah 41:06 No, no, no. No, no, no.

Don Lemon 41:06 But I understand why you are.

Trevor Noah 41:07 I was surprised that you said you don't miss the... But then y- I think you answered my question when you followed up. What I was asking is, do you miss the job? Not, I didn't even think of it as corporate media.

Don Lemon 41:17 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 41:17 I was asking if you, if you missed the job because I think this applies to everyone, regardless of whether they were on TV or radio or, you know, anything public-facing.

Eugene Daniels 41:26 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 41:28 We take for granted how much the thing we do slowly becomes who we think we are.

Don Lemon 41:33 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 41:33 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 41:34 Right?

Don Lemon 41:34 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 41:34 Someone s- and people say this with such confidence. You go, "Hey, my name's Mike." "Hi, Mike. Uh, tell me about yourself." "Well, I'm a doctor."

Eugene Daniels 41:43 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 41:43 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 41:44 It's amazing how that's the first thing people lead with: I am what I do.

Don Lemon 41:48 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 41:49 You know?

Eugene Daniels 41:49 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 41:50 And then if you take that away from them, all of a sudden they don't have an I am anymore.

Don Lemon 41:53 Right.

Trevor Noah 41:54 And people will sometimes even lead with that. "Hey, Mike, so tell me about yourself." "Well, I used to be a doctor." And you're like, "Wait, what do you mean? What, why would you tell me about what you used... I used to be a kindergartner. I don't tell you that."

Don Lemon 42:04 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 42:05 You, you know what I mean?

Don Lemon 42:06 True.

Trevor Noah 42:06 But it's interesting how we've, we've really made what we do who we are, and it, I think it's amplified when you're in the public eye because-

Don Lemon 42:14 Oh, my God

Trevor Noah 42:14 ... people see you as the job.

Don Lemon 42:16 That's how they identify you.

Trevor Noah 42:17 Exactly. So now when you're no longer doing that, they don't know how to place you.

Don Lemon 42:20 Right.

Trevor Noah 42:20 So they're like, "Don, Don Lemon."

Don Lemon 42:22 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 42:23 "So, like, what are you... [sighs]

Don Lemon 42:25 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 42:26 What, what do you-

Don Lemon 42:27 What's going on? What are you doing now?

Eugene Daniels 42:28 What are you doing now?

Trevor Noah 42:28 Yeah.

Don Lemon 42:29 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 42:29 It's that. It's like a... It's, because, and I understand it. People are not trying to be assholes. People are going, "I only know you through your job."

Don Lemon 42:37 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 42:37 Mm.

Trevor Noah 42:38 "So if you do not have your job, I do not know how you exist anymore."

Don Lemon 42:41 That's right

Trevor Noah 42:42 'Cause you've never existed to me without the job. So I was just asking you if you miss the job itself, like the journalism-ing. But then, you know, as we continued talking, I realized you're still doing that

Don Lemon 42:51 I'm still doing it. I'm b- I'm basically doing the same thing-

Trevor Noah 42:53 There you go

Don Lemon 42:54 ... but just with more freedom.

Trevor Noah 42:55 Yeah.

Don Lemon 42:55 But, uh, uh, talking, speaking of therapy, I, I had a lot of therapy in my life, 'cause I think it's really good for you.

Trevor Noah 43:00 Yeah.

Don Lemon 43:00 So I never thought that I was my job, ever. Like, a-

Trevor Noah 43:04 That's the best place to be

Don Lemon 43:05 ... never thought that I was my job. And like you, I know that all things, good or bad, come to an end, and eventually we will come to an end.

Trevor Noah 43:12 See, that's the big one.

Don Lemon 43:13 So when that's over, if, if the universe has taken care of me for all these umpteenth years, why would I think that it's gonna fail me-

Trevor Noah 43:22 Why now?

Don Lemon 43:22 ... moving forward?

Trevor Noah 43:23 Yeah.

Don Lemon 43:23 I don't know.

Trevor Noah 43:23 There's the universe guy. You can talk to him.

Don Lemon 43:25 Yeah. Why, why now?

Trevor Noah 43:26 [laughs]

Don Lemon 43:26 So I, I ... Look, is it, do I like the way I was treated on my way out? Do I like the in- injustice, the, you know, sort of unfairness of it all?

Trevor Noah 43:35 Mm.

Don Lemon 43:35 No.

Trevor Noah 43:36 What happened to you-

Don Lemon 43:37 But-

Trevor Noah 43:37 ... on, on that? Because it, it happened so quickly, and it seemed like there was just craziness at CNN. What actually happened?

Don Lemon 43:43 It's the same thing that ha- that's happening to CBS and, and other s-

Trevor Noah 43:47 Oh

Don Lemon 43:47 ... and other networks now.

Trevor Noah 43:48 Yeah.

Don Lemon 43:49 Um, we, they, they sold the company, and the people who came in wanted to make room for more conservative voices. I don't have a problem with that, but they wanted to make room for MAGA voices, and people who came on who were insurrection deniers, and election deniers, and just coming on to lie. And I thought, like, "This is a journalistic organization. There is no ... I don't believe in the false equivalency." There is no, uh, there's no equivalent to, um, someone who's coming on and giving you factual information about what's happening in the country, and someone who you know is lying.

Trevor Noah 44:19 Yeah.

Don Lemon 44:19 It's like saying-

Trevor Noah 44:20 There's no substitute

Don Lemon 44:20 ... that, that the election was stolen. Like, that is not true. We all know that, so why are you giving this person so much room? Because, um, I think that the, what journalism and journalists are supposed to do is inform-

Trevor Noah 44:34 Mm

Don Lemon 44:34 ... and educate and give facts. So we can still cover a story without giving someone a platform to just come on and directly lie to the American people, like Donald Trump would do during, you know, his, um, rallies during the first term. And then people realized, okay, we can't, we can't do that because people start to believe it. So, um, I believe that when you, if you have the privilege of going on to a CNN or any network or Daily Show, it is a privilege. It's not a right. You don't have the right to go there, so you should respect the platform-

Trevor Noah 45:08 Mm

Don Lemon 45:09 ... and the people enough to be honest with them and tell the truth. So anyway, they wanted to make more room and move the network to the right, and I don't believe news is right or left. It's, it just is. And so I would challenge conservatives who came on to lie, and they did not like it. And so h- what I believe, in my opinion, is that they were coming up with a predicate to get rid of me, so they moved me to the morning. So they came up with this idea, "This is great for the mornings," whatever. And then, um, from there, it just sort of ... I, uh, people think that I got fired for something that I said about Nikki Haley, but that was not it. I had an, um, uh, an interview with, uh, Vivek Ramaswamy-

Trevor Noah 45:49 Yeah

Don Lemon 45:49 ... on the morning show. I didn't even know he was coming on. It was not my guest. It was, like, my co-anchor's guest. And I was like, when they said, "Vivek Ramaswamy's coming on," I'm like, "Okay, that's Poppy's guest. I don't ... Not my business." And so he came on and he started lying about things, and I'm, like, sitting there going, "Black people got their rights because of the NRA, because the NRA fought for Black people's rights during the Civil War."

Trevor Noah 46:15 This is what he was saying?

Don Lemon 46:16 And I was like, "Bro, [laughs] none of this shit is true," and nobody was checking him. And I said, "That is not true." And he goes, "We have to be able to have these conversations." I said, "Yeah, if the conversation is true. You have to be honest on both sides. The NRA wasn't even around for the Civil War. Like, what the fuck are you talking about?" Four days later, I was gone. And then they rushed a press conference to announce Charles Barkley and Gayle King's show because they had gotten rid of their only Black anchor and primetime anchor.

Trevor Noah 46:53 You know what's always fascinated me-

Don Lemon 46:54 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 46:55 ... is why in America the, like, let's call them whatever people wanna call them, you know, mainstream/whatever organizations, why they always want to pander to a group that cares not to pander to them in any way, shape, or form. So I don't remember Fox News ever going on a binge where they were like-

Don Lemon 47:17 Me neither

Trevor Noah 47:17 ... "We need to get as many liberal people on this network-

Don Lemon 47:19 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 47:19 ... as possible," or, or Newsmax or any of them. And-

Don Lemon 47:22 And Fox is the most profitable-

Trevor Noah 47:24 But that's what I mean

Don Lemon 47:24 ... Fox News is the most profitable news channel.

Trevor Noah 47:26 But I, I don't understand it. They've never once gone, "Ah, we don't have enough of these voice. Let's get them on."

Don Lemon 47:31 'Cause it doesn't work.

Trevor Noah 47:33 Yeah, but, but why does that happen on the other side?

Don Lemon 47:35 Because the people who own the companies think like that. They are right wing. Many of them are MAGA.

Trevor Noah 47:40 Okay. All right.

Don Lemon 47:40 The ones who are buying the companies now-

Trevor Noah 47:42 Okay. No, that makes sense

Don Lemon 47:42 ... are Donald Trump supporters. There was a, um, Ellison, who owns Paramount.

Trevor Noah 47:48 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense.

Don Lemon 47:48 There was a Donald Trump appreciation dinner during the White House Correspondents' Dinner. So they are very transparent about it.

Trevor Noah 47:54 Yeah.

Don Lemon 47:54 But yet on the other side, when you are centrist or liberal, you're like, "Oh, I can't do that. You know, it's a conflict of interest," da, da, da. They don't give a shit about that.

Trevor Noah 48:00 No, they don't. No, they, they're living their dream, I will say. I will s-

Don Lemon 48:02 And-

Trevor Noah 48:02 But that, but that's the thing I don't miss, is, like ... So I, I think, I think that's where ... Eugene and I talk about this all the time. We are in an interesting age of media where the, the structures that people have, have, have ordained for so long are gonna fall apart because they don't present people with anything real anymore. It, it, it, it, it all feels like a facsimile of real. It feels like it's, like it's-

Don Lemon 48:31 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 48:31 ... manufactured. It feels like it's manicured.

Don Lemon 48:33 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 48:33 It feels like it's ... You know? So-

Don Lemon 48:35 Put on.

Trevor Noah 48:35 Yeah. So, so you, you, you find yourself watching the news going, "I- is this the news? Is this what's happening? Is this what's actually going on? Is this ..." You, you know what I mean?

Don Lemon 48:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 48:45 'Cause-

Don Lemon 48:45 Yeah

Trevor Noah 48:46 ... the, the news at that moment-

Don Lemon 48:46 And if you, if you-

Trevor Noah 48:46 Mm-hmm

Don Lemon 48:47 ... if you look at it through a- any lens-

Trevor Noah 48:49 News, sports coverage, um, you know, documentaries, w- whatever you, you... It's interesting to see how the ones that are actually really experiencing growth are the ones that just feel authentic. Whether or not you're for them is irrelevant.

Don Lemon 49:04 Mm-hmm.

Eugene Daniels 49:04 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 49:05 But the authenticity is-

Don Lemon 49:06 That's it

Trevor Noah 49:06 ... is, is what's-

Don Lemon 49:08 And that's what's driving independent media-

Trevor Noah 49:10 Yeah

Don Lemon 49:10 ... right now, is the authenticity.

Trevor Noah 49:11 Yeah.

Don Lemon 49:11 But you're right. Facsimile is a very good word. It's almost like Stepford Wives.

Trevor Noah 49:15 It, that's exactly what it is

Don Lemon 49:16 ... where you get lulled into it and you're like, and you just start watching it.

Trevor Noah 49:18 That's exactly what... That's how I feel sometimes now when I'll watch, in the occasions, the moments when I'll watch the news.

Eugene Daniels 49:23 The real news.

Trevor Noah 49:24 No, like CNN-

Eugene Daniels 49:25 I'm saying the-

Trevor Noah 49:25 ... or any of those. It, it-

Eugene Daniels 49:26 Yeah, the real news

Trevor Noah 49:26 ... it'll be like, it's almost like, "Welcome. We're going to talk about a story now, and we have one guest. Hello. What, what is happening? Uh, many people have been killed. Oh, wow. Well, we have someone else who says the opposite. Many people have not been killed. Oh, what do you think? They have been killed. What do you think? They have not been killed. Well, that's all we have time for. Now time for our next story."

Eugene Daniels 49:48 Mm.

Trevor Noah 49:48 And you're sitting there going-

Eugene Daniels 49:49 "What happened?"

Trevor Noah 49:49 ... "Wait, so what happened?"

Don Lemon 49:50 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 49:50 Yeah.

Don Lemon 49:50 What, what happened?

Trevor Noah 49:52 So what happened?

Don Lemon 49:53 Nothing. Or it's this, "I can't stand you. Fuck you. Blah, blah. Or you, blah, blah, blah." And it's like fighting around the table, and you're like, "What is being accomplished here?"

Trevor Noah 50:01 Yeah, no.

Don Lemon 50:02 I, I hate that. Um, you're right. That's what's happening.

Trevor Noah 50:06 It's just like-

Don Lemon 50:06 And the, the authenticity is being in, um, in independent media or being an independent journalist. I don't miss that because before, you know... Uh, my show was a little bit different because I sort of relaxed. I was the last person on. It was 10 o'clock at night. But, you know, no one has conversations like that. No one sits around in cocktail dresses and suits with neckties on, and they're like-

Trevor Noah 50:25 [laughs]

Don Lemon 50:27 "Now we're going to have a conversation right now."

Trevor Noah 50:29 Yeah.

Don Lemon 50:29 "Trevor-

Trevor Noah 50:29 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eugene Daniels 50:30 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 50:31 Yeah

Don Lemon 50:31 ... how are you? Eugene, what do you think?"

Trevor Noah 50:33 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 50:34 "Eugene?"

Trevor Noah 50:36 [laughs]

Don Lemon 50:37 Right? But stand by.

Eugene Daniels 50:39 He almost answered you.

Don Lemon 50:40 Stand by. I'm going to-

Eugene Daniels 50:41 I was like, "Do you wanna know what I think?" [laughs]

Trevor Noah 50:43 [laughs]

Don Lemon 50:43 I'm going to bring someone in, and we're gonna have-

Trevor Noah 50:46 Yeah. [laughs]

Don Lemon 50:46 ... uh, we're gonna FaceTime with Rob. Rob, you are standing there in the bar that we were talking about. These guys.

Trevor Noah 50:53 Yeah.

Don Lemon 50:53 Hey, what's going on, Rob?

Trevor Noah 50:56 Yeah.

Don Lemon 50:56 Like, who talks like that?

Trevor Noah 50:57 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 50:58 Yeah.

Don Lemon 50:58 And so I think people... At, I, I think also COVID changed us.

Trevor Noah 51:02 It actually did, man.

Don Lemon 51:03 Because people got used to seeing people in a natural environment-

Trevor Noah 51:06 That's what it is. That's what it is

Don Lemon 51:07 ... and they're like, "Oh, I kinda like this." So I do my show from, I have, like, a little studio. I, I got rid of my dining room table s- just like this, where my dining room once was.

Trevor Noah 51:16 Yeah.

Don Lemon 51:16 And I was like, "Why don't I set it up in the, in my dining room?" And so that's where I do the show, and I come on, I'm like, "Hey, everybody, so glad you're with us today. Oh, what are we gonna talk about? Okay, let's-"

Trevor Noah 51:26 You do it COVID style.

Don Lemon 51:27 Yeah. And you just, you just go, "Ah, what am I gonna talk about?"

Eugene Daniels 51:29 You know what? This guy needs to come back.

Don Lemon 51:30 I could be doing this.

Eugene Daniels 51:31 He needs to come home.

Don Lemon 51:31 We could talk about this, but this is what's on my mind right now.

Eugene Daniels 51:34 We say this all-

Don Lemon 51:34 And-

Eugene Daniels 51:34 This was our topic-

Don Lemon 51:35 That's what you do

Eugene Daniels 51:36 ... the whole of yesterday.

Trevor Noah 51:37 This is... You see what I'm talking about?

Eugene Daniels 51:38 The whole of yesterday, this is what we spoke about.

Don Lemon 51:40 There's no... The thing is, is that there is no... I mean, I have a plan, but, um, there is a... I, I'm not trying to get anything out of it. I'm not trying to make sure that we keep an audience-

Trevor Noah 51:52 You're not making a show

Don Lemon 51:53 ... minute by minute.

Trevor Noah 51:54 Yeah.

Don Lemon 51:54 There's no agenda.

Trevor Noah 51:56 Right.

Don Lemon 51:56 The only agenda is to tell the truth-

Trevor Noah 51:58 I know

Don Lemon 51:58 ... and to engage with people.

Trevor Noah 51:59 I know.

Don Lemon 52:00 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 52:00 This was our topic the whole day. 'Cause we said when people stop making a show, that's when the show gets made.

Don Lemon 52:05 That's it.

Eugene Daniels 52:06 W- you usually see it with car reviewers on YouTube.

Don Lemon 52:09 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 52:09 When a manufacturer launches a certain model, it's all about the technical stuff, the car, the-

Trevor Noah 52:14 It's what they're selling you

Eugene Daniels 52:15 ... they're selling you. But when a reviewer gets hold of it and says, "I don't like this, but I love this, and I hate that, and I love that," that actually gets more traction and makes you go, "Do I want the car or don't I want the car?"

Don Lemon 52:25 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 52:25 And with people like you who have authority and obviously experience in what you do, when you sit down and go, "Let's just figure it out together"-

Don Lemon 52:33 Yeah

Eugene Daniels 52:33 ... that makes the conversation more m- much more interesting.

Trevor Noah 52:35 Yes.

Don Lemon 52:37 I, I, I agree. The, and the thing is, is there's a... one thing that I'm not a fan of, um-

Trevor Noah 52:41 Being inside?

Don Lemon 52:42 ... with independent media. [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 52:43 Sorry. Sorry.

Don Lemon 52:44 You don't know.

Trevor Noah 52:49 [laughs]

Don Lemon 52:51 Where's my phone? Can, can I get a hall pass? I wanna show this mother something.

Trevor Noah 52:56 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 52:57 He's lucky he doesn't have his phone with you.

Eugene Daniels 53:00 It was Cindy the lap oh.

Trevor Noah 53:02 Cindy.

Eugene Daniels 53:02 You were so close to Cindy.

Trevor Noah 53:03 Pow.

Eugene Daniels 53:04 John had his phone. Ha ha. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 53:07 [laughs]

Don Lemon 53:08 What I'm not a fan of-

Eugene Daniels 53:09 Oh, man

Don Lemon 53:09 ... is feeling like I have to sell something, because we don't have large-

Trevor Noah 53:12 Thank you

Don Lemon 53:13 ... large corporate-

Eugene Daniels 53:13 Have you met this guy?

Trevor Noah 53:14 Thank-

Don Lemon 53:14 ... sponsorships. I would like to not have to go, "And here's a word from our sponsors."

Trevor Noah 53:17 Let me tell... My man.

Don Lemon 53:18 I don't like that.

Trevor Noah 53:19 Let me tell-

Don Lemon 53:19 I'm not, that's not my favorite part.

Trevor Noah 53:20 I swear, it's like you, it's like you-

Eugene Daniels 53:22 Yeah, you were there

Don Lemon 53:23 ... we have to sell it. You-

Trevor Noah 53:25 But it's like you, you-

Eugene Daniels 53:26 It's like you were there.

Trevor Noah 53:27 I, I was having this conver- literally yesterday.

Eugene Daniels 53:30 Mm.

Trevor Noah 53:30 And I was saying this to Eugene, my friend Ryan, we were all hanging out there, and I said, "This is what people don't even understand in politics right now. One of the main reasons Donald Trump has done so well, and continues to win people... I mean, now he's losing them because of Ir- He, he always lose... It's funny. Trump always wins-

Don Lemon 53:51 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 53:51 ... people with his rhetoric and loses people with his actions.

Don Lemon 53:53 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 53:54 You know?

Don Lemon 53:54 And COVID policy, 'cause that's not very good.

Trevor Noah 53:55 The same, same thing happened during COVID-

Don Lemon 53:56 Yeah

Trevor Noah 53:56 ... is, like, peop- he wins the elec- And then when you, like, when he has to run the country, people are like, "What is happening?"

Don Lemon 54:00 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 54:00 And then it all goes down.

Don Lemon 54:01 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 54:01 And then he comes in with the rhetoric. People love it. When he actually runs the country, people are like, "This is terrible."

Don Lemon 54:06 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 54:06 But the thing people don't realize is, is m- many politicians-

Eugene Daniels 54:09 Mm

Trevor Noah 54:10 ... he's authentic. He's not honest. There's a difference.

Don Lemon 54:13 Right, right, right.

Trevor Noah 54:14 But he's authentic. He'll come out and he'll say to you, "I'm supposed to read from the teleprompter. There it is. Telepromp- I, I should read it. I should read it. Should you want me to read? I don't wanna read. I gotta read it. They want me to read it. I could read it. I could read, but I don't wanna."

Don Lemon 54:27 Aceta- ace- acetame- aceta-

Trevor Noah 54:32 Menophen?

Don Lemon 54:32 Finally got it. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 54:34 Yes. Yeah. But, and you go, "Boy, that's a tough word. That's a tough word. Can you say that again? A lot of people can't say it." That thing-

Eugene Daniels 54:41 Authenticity

Trevor Noah 54:43 ... politicians, let's just call it mainstream or legacy in any field-

Eugene Daniels 54:49 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 54:50 ... has taken for granted How much authenticity has been stripped from our society.

Don Lemon 54:56 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 54:58 Mm.

Don Lemon 54:58 Amen. Oh my God.

Trevor Noah 54:59 The, d- and, and, and you know what? This is, this is what happens. We, we live in cycles in life, right? Things will often start off as authentic. Once they achieve critical acclaim or success, they then start to become parodies of themselves because they're trying to maintain what they now have. Yeah. Right? So you, you, you have, like, a dating show or you have, like, Survivor, let's say. I would argue, like, the first season of Survivor was the only, like, real season of Survivor. That was the real Survivor. Mm-hmm. 'Cause people didn't know what Survivor was supposed to be. Big Brother fame.

Don Lemon 55:29 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 55:30 Yeah. It was like, "What is this thing?" What are we doing? And then it was Richard, right? Mm-hmm. Remember the first, like, bad, villainy guy- Yeah ... who, like, w- he was like, "Oh, I'm, I'm just gonna break it." Break it. Yeah, "I'm gonna break this game." Everyone else was trying to do the real thing, and Richard was like, "No, I'm gonna, I'm gonna screw this over." But people watched that and then went, "Oh, that's what we need to do." He became the template. Yeah.

Don Lemon 55:47 And it, yeah.

Trevor Noah 55:47 And Survivor itself went-

Don Lemon 55:49 Yeah

Trevor Noah 55:49 ... "This is what needs to be done." What needs to be done.

Don Lemon 55:50 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 55:51 So they start casting villains. So now when you watch Survivor- Mm-hmm ... people come in- As villains ... as a villain. Mm-hmm. But you're like, "No, that's-

Don Lemon 55:57 Yeah

Trevor Noah 55:57 ... you're not, that's not authentic anymore." Mm-hmm. And so then what happens is-

Don Lemon 56:00 I didn't even know it was still on the air, but okay.

Trevor Noah 56:02 Oh yeah, it's still, still going. Oh, it's not going anywhere. That- Yeah, still going strong. But it starts to become, it doesn't have the, the, the cultural cachet that it once had. The same thing goes for dating shows. The first version of it will be authentic. People are like, "What is that?" Same thing for reality shows. Mm-hmm. The first version is just a camera crew comes in your house, they start filming. You get comfortable and you start having your real disputes. You have your, you know, like, you even see, like the- You start living your life ... uh, the Hulk Hogan documentary. Yes. You see him saying- Hogan Knows Best ... "We didn't realize- Mm-hmm ... how invasive this would be." But they were having real fights-

Don Lemon 56:32 Yeah

Trevor Noah 56:32 ... in front of the camera. With Linda, yeah.

Don Lemon 56:34 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 56:34 But now when people do reality show, it's scripted. Staged. They even, like, yeah, they stage the fights.

Don Lemon 56:39 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 56:40 That strips away. What starts happening? The next generation of authentic comes. So then you end up with, like, dating shows like Pop the Balloon. You know that-

Don Lemon 56:49 Right

Trevor Noah 56:49 ... Pop the Balloon show? Yeah, my favorite. Yeah, but why? Because it was so much more authentic. Yeah. These people didn't look like they'd done any media training. Mm-hmm. They didn't give us any spiel. Someone just walked in and was just like, "Hey, my name's Brad." Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. [laughs] I, I... [laughs] That's, like, bad for TV if you think about it.

Don Lemon 57:06 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 57:06 You'll be like, "No, no, no. Don't all pop your balloons at once." Yeah, it ends at the beginning. If that, if that show had a showrunner- Yes

Don Lemon 57:10 ... it would say, "Don't."

Trevor Noah 57:11 They would be like, "Okay." "Wait." "Next each of you-"

Don Lemon 57:13 "And your story is this."

Trevor Noah 57:14 Yes. Yes.

Don Lemon 57:15 "And use this."

Trevor Noah 57:15 "And then you're gonna pop a balloon when this happens." Yes, yes.

Don Lemon 57:17 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 57:17 "And you're gonna pop a balloon when this..." No. Sometimes a person will walk in, not even speak. Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. I was like, "None of these mother- [laughs] Yeah.

Don Lemon 57:26 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 57:28 That's, and why do people love it? It's authentic.

Don Lemon 57:31 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 57:31 You know what I mean? And I think we take for granted- Yeah ... how authenticity, authenticity has been robbed of, like- It's been stripped away ... we, we're yearning for it in society.

Don Lemon 57:38 Just everything is produced, over- overly produced.

Trevor Noah 57:41 There you go.

Don Lemon 57:41 And you're right. And then the show or whatever it is becomes a parody of itself.

Trevor Noah 57:45 There you go.

Don Lemon 57:46 Right? It becomes the SNL skit of itself.

Trevor Noah 57:48 Yeah. Why do people love hot wings on the internet? It's not because celebrities are eating spicy hot wings, it's because them eating the hot wing is the one thing they can't fake now. Yeah, it's hard to lie. So i- if they go to a late night show and it's like- It's, it's hard to act like your mouth is on fire ... "Tell me about the time you went on vacation. [laughs] Oh, I can't believe you asked me that story that I told you about before we came out in front of the cameras. So what happened was..." Give the person a spicy hot wing that they cannot tolerate. As we say back home, ""Bokul bufedile."" Mm.

Don Lemon 58:17 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 58:17 The cool is gone. [laughs]

Don Lemon 58:19 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 58:19 You know what I mean? We saw Idris Elba choke. This is- [laughs]

Don Lemon 58:21 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 58:21 Idris, this is, like, the greatest action star of our lifetime and he's... [laughs] But you know what happened? We loved him more after that.

Don Lemon 58:27 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 58:28 We didn't go like, "Ah, Idris can't be an action star." We're like, "Yo, we, we roll with you even harder now." You know, but I-

Don Lemon 58:32 Let me tell you-

Trevor Noah 58:33 Yeah

Don Lemon 58:33 ... people love a hot mess. And, and p- and people would ask me, you know, and I don't know how you feel about, uh, Wendy Williams.

Trevor Noah 58:39 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Don Lemon 58:40 Wendy Williams is a hot mess.

Trevor Noah 58:41 He's the biggest Wendy on CNN. Oh, yeah, I love Wendy.

Don Lemon 58:42 And people loved her. She is missed on-

Trevor Noah 58:45 How you doing?

Don Lemon 58:46 How you doing?

Trevor Noah 58:47 How you doing? [laughs]

Don Lemon 58:47 People, she is missed on daytime television.

Trevor Noah 58:50 Yeah, she is.

Don Lemon 58:50 Her show would, I believe, still be a success.

Trevor Noah 58:52 Yes.

Don Lemon 58:52 And especially if, like, advertisers were afraid of her. Um, you know, the O&O, you know, the stations around the country were afraid of her because they didn't know what she was gonna say. And you know, people, "Oh my God," like, with your accent. When you just, she was so authentic, and that was, that was her superpower.

Trevor Noah 59:07 Yes. Yes.

Don Lemon 59:08 And I miss that on television. There's n- there's hardly any t- if any television show or talk show that's like that now.

Trevor Noah 59:14 But can I tell you, here's the irony. Yeah. And this is what most people don't realize, especially when it comes to media. The great irony is the cycle. Something becomes popular, advertisers wish to partake in it. Yeah. The advertisers want to partake in it because it's popular. Mm-hmm. When they partake in it, they now wish to put guardrails on it-

Don Lemon 59:33 Yeah

Trevor Noah 59:33 ... because they are worried about how they will be perceived.

Don Lemon 59:36 Brand safety.

Trevor Noah 59:36 Not realizing that no one really cares.

Don Lemon 59:39 Thank you. Can you-

Trevor Noah 59:40 No one, no one-

Don Lemon 59:40 Nobody cares.

Trevor Noah 59:41 Nobody cares ... no one cares about a brand as much as a brand cares about a brand.

Don Lemon 59:43 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 59:43 Yeah. They think the streets are like, "Oh, I saw your ad on that sh-". No, no one really cares. They start putting guardrails on the thing. Mm. They put so many guardrails that the thing loses all of its authenticity and popularity.

Don Lemon 59:55 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 59:55 Mm-hmm. It starts to dwindle. Then they ring fence you with incentives. And then they, and then they pull out. Mm-hmm. They go like, "Sorry, Don. It's not performing anymore."

Don Lemon 1:00:01 "It's not performing." Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:00:03 And you're like, "You made me stop being me, and now the thing's failed, and now you're pulling out." And they're like, "Yeah, sorry. We're going for this new th-" You know, people are loving it. Watch what's gonna happen to it. Just give it time.

Don Lemon 1:00:15 And they're, they're so... You're right, they're so dumb. Like, there was an advertiser who my, uh, sales guy called and said, "You know, this advertiser's really nervous about your arrest," and whatever. I said, "How many more people are watching us because of that arrest?"

Trevor Noah 1:00:28 Hmm.

Don Lemon 1:00:28 Like, nobody cares but you.

Trevor Noah 1:00:30 That's what we want. Yeah. Yes.

Don Lemon 1:00:31 No one cares. And in this environment now, it used to be 15 minutes of fame, it's 15 seconds.

Trevor Noah 1:00:36 Oh, yeah. It's, now it's-

Don Lemon 1:00:36 Right now. And the news cycle, it's like a story goes in, and then you're like, "This is the biggest thing." And then Donald Trump tweets something, you're like, "Oh, forget about that."

Trevor Noah 1:00:43 Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:00:43 "This is the biggest thing now."

Trevor Noah 1:00:44 By the way, now that you bring that up, did you guys at CNN ever know that he was, like, playing you guys like puppets? Did you ever figure it out at some point?

Don Lemon 1:00:50 Oh, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:00:51 Okay.

Don Lemon 1:00:52 Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:00:53 No, 'cause there was a, there was a thing. So-

Don Lemon 1:00:54 I, I think they, I think, honestly, they maybe knew somewhere in the beginning, but it was good for business Do you remember Les Moonves? He goes, "You know, Trump is bad for the country, but he's good for business."

Trevor Noah 1:01:08 He did say that.

Don Lemon 1:01:09 And-

Trevor Noah 1:01:09 Jeff Zucker said, "Donald Trump is many things, but one thing I'll tell you is he's a one man ratings wrecking ball machine."

Don Lemon 1:01:17 And-

Trevor Noah 1:01:17 Same with, uh, I think it was Roger Ailes, who called Trump, was like, "Yo, man, why aren't you coming on the..." When he w- when Fox was fighting with Trump, Roger Ailes was phoning Trump and he's like, "Yo, I, I know we're beefing, but come on the show, man."

Don Lemon 1:01:28 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 1:01:28 Did you go-

Trevor Noah 1:01:29 Let me tell you something. Donald Trump is a media genius.

Don Lemon 1:01:31 Genius.

Eugene Daniels 1:01:32 Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:01:32 Ge- I, I got a story about that. But I tell you, I, um, Jeff got hip to it really early, and then, but he never told us what to say. We did not... The only thing that he would tell us is, when we were doing interviews, when he allowed us to do interviews-

Trevor Noah 1:01:45 Yeah

Don Lemon 1:01:46 ... is, um, to just let him talk-

Trevor Noah 1:01:48 Mm-hmm

Don Lemon 1:01:48 ... and fact check him. You can ask him anything. It's all in the way you ask the question.

Trevor Noah 1:01:53 Oh, interesting.

Don Lemon 1:01:53 So you can say, "Trevor, what is wrong with your hair?"

Trevor Noah 1:01:57 Uh-huh.

Don Lemon 1:01:57 Or you can go, "Trevor, you seem to have a really nice head of hair. What's going on? Is it, did you change something?"

Trevor Noah 1:02:03 Oh.

Don Lemon 1:02:04 Very similar question, right? Or you compliment him before. "You're a marketing genius. Now, this one thing I don't understand because it didn't quite go over well with your supporters. What happened?" "Well..." You know, so.

Trevor Noah 1:02:17 Oh, and then you're in.

Don Lemon 1:02:19 Yeah. And then you're in.

Trevor Noah 1:02:20 What's the story?

Don Lemon 1:02:22 Uh-

Eugene Daniels 1:02:23 Morning glory.

Don Lemon 1:02:23 [laughs] The story. Wait, wait, what did you say again? What were you asking?

Trevor Noah 1:02:25 We were talking about me- me- marketing genius.

Don Lemon 1:02:28 Oh, marketing genius

Trevor Noah 1:02:28 Media genius. Media genius.

Don Lemon 1:02:29 How I knew Donald Trump was gonna win in 2016.

Trevor Noah 1:02:31 Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:02:32 I, you know, this was back in the day when I got newspapers delivered to my door. Now everything's online. I, I prefer holding the newspaper, but then it becomes too much. So I would get The Washington Post, The New York Times, um, sometimes they would send me, just for fun, the, the company, the, like The New York Post, all of it. So I open these newspapers, and Donald Trump is on the front page. And then I open the real estate section. Donald Trump is in the real estate section.

Trevor Noah 1:02:57 Mm.

Don Lemon 1:02:57 And then I open the editorial section. There's Donald Trump. And then, whatever. And I just, I was like, "Oh," and I was like, "Well, where is Hillary Clinton?"

Trevor Noah 1:03:04 Mm.

Don Lemon 1:03:05 Right? And I said, "This man is going to win." And, and Tim said, "Why?" I said, "Because he's everywhere. And he's sitting, uh, who knows, in his bed, on a toilet or whatever, calling into morning shows." Right? He didn't come in. He just calls in.

Trevor Noah 1:03:20 Do you know why he did it like that?

Don Lemon 1:03:21 Because he got, he didn't have to go in, but he, he-

Trevor Noah 1:03:24 No

Don Lemon 1:03:24 ... could talk to everybody.

Trevor Noah 1:03:25 No, it's genius.

Eugene Daniels 1:03:26 Why?

Trevor Noah 1:03:27 The reason Donald Trump did it like that is because he liked how it made him seem like the Wizard of Oz.

Don Lemon 1:03:35 Oh, yeah.

Eugene Daniels 1:03:35 Oh.

Trevor Noah 1:03:36 So when Donald Trump would phone into a news show but wouldn't be there, all the people on the show would just have to, like, sit there.

Don Lemon 1:03:44 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 1:03:44 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:03:44 And it has the same effect-

Eugene Daniels 1:03:45 And be grateful he was there

Trevor Noah 1:03:46 ... of speaking to this, like, omnipotent power.

Don Lemon 1:03:48 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:03:49 So they all sit on the couch. You see them on Fox all the time. They sit on the couch-

Don Lemon 1:03:51 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:03:52 ... and they go, "So, Mr. President-"

Don Lemon 1:03:53 Yes, yes

Trevor Noah 1:03:54 ... "So, Mr. President, tell us..."

Eugene Daniels 1:03:55 Mr. President.

Trevor Noah 1:03:55 And then you just, you just see the picture, his pic, that, like, smoldering picture of his.

Don Lemon 1:03:59 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:03:59 And then he just talks, and everyone just has to stare at the picture. And in those moments, you don't realize-

Eugene Daniels 1:04:05 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:04:06 ... subconsciously-

Don Lemon 1:04:07 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:04:07 ... you're saying that this person is so important, they do not have to be here, but we have to listen to everything they say.

Eugene Daniels 1:04:16 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:04:16 And he knew the power-

Eugene Daniels 1:04:17 He's allowed to become

Trevor Noah 1:04:17 ... he knew the power of it

Don Lemon 1:04:18 You're right. I, that's something I never even thought about.

Trevor Noah 1:04:20 Yeah, he, he knew the power.

Don Lemon 1:04:21 But also-

Trevor Noah 1:04:21 But he knew it on a media level. He's genius.

Don Lemon 1:04:23 But he knew the power of it. He also knew that he could be everywhere, everything everywhere all at once, right? He could be everywhere on, and on every show. And look, I, I think that there, in modern history, in recent times, there's n- never been anyone more qualified to be president than Hillary Clinton, okay? However, I don't believe that whatever media strategy she has, or strategist, that I think that they served her wrong, because she would pick and choose, and, "I'm gonna do this," and, and I'm like, "You should be all over the place. What are you guys doing?"

Trevor Noah 1:04:53 Yeah, but I, so here's the thing to what Eugene said and what we were saying. When you stop trying to do the

Trevor Noah 1:05:00 thing, that's when you will do the thing.

Don Lemon 1:05:01 That's when you'll do the thing.

Trevor Noah 1:05:02 Have you noticed how people in divorce will finally become themselves?

Don Lemon 1:05:08 Themselves.

Eugene Daniels 1:05:08 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:05:09 It's only when people are breaking up with each other that they'll finally tell the other person the truth of who they are.

Eugene Daniels 1:05:14 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:05:14 All of a sudden you'll say-

Eugene Daniels 1:05:16 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:05:16 ... "I, I never w- I never liked sleeping in the same bed. I, I just wanna sleep in my own room," and-

Don Lemon 1:05:20 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:05:20 ... "And I, I don't wanna go on vacations to this place that..." And then the person goes, "Wait, when were you gonna tell me this?"

Don Lemon 1:05:26 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:05:27 When you stop trying to do the thing, ironically, that's often when you'll do the thing.

Don Lemon 1:05:31 Is that what happened with Hillary Clinton, do you think?

Trevor Noah 1:05:32 The same thing goes. If you want to see arguably the best just, like, politician, qualified hum- or, go and watch Hillary Clinton's interviews after she had wo- lost the election-

Don Lemon 1:05:45 Yes

Trevor Noah 1:05:45 ... and it was, like, done.

Don Lemon 1:05:46 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:05:46 I think there's one she did on Howard Stern maybe, or... You go, "Where was this person?"

Don Lemon 1:05:52 Yeah, I agree.

Trevor Noah 1:05:53 Yo-

Don Lemon 1:05:54 In, in person

Trevor Noah 1:05:54 ... she is-

Eugene Daniels 1:05:54 Mm. Mm

Trevor Noah 1:05:55 ... funny, smart, knowledgeable, throws the thing. She is fire. But you never saw that person on the campaign trail because, but this is, this is, like, the gift and the curse, I always think, in life. I argue Donald Trump won the election because he just, like the 2016 election, he won it because he's just, he was just this crazy, brash, take it to the limit person all the time.

Don Lemon 1:06:23 He had no shame.

Trevor Noah 1:06:23 But that's also the reason he lost the next election, is because he had... The, the, there's two different skills in life, right? The s- the, the ability to be a revolutionary does not mean that you will have the ability to govern.

Don Lemon 1:06:34 Mm-hmm.

Eugene Daniels 1:06:34 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:06:35 The ability to run for office does not mean you'll have the ability to run in office.

Eugene Daniels 1:06:41 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 1:06:41 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:06:42 You know?

Eugene Daniels 1:06:42 To run an office.

Trevor Noah 1:06:43 Yeah, to run an office.

Eugene Daniels 1:06:44 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:06:44 Thank you. And so that's what people don't get, is like, to your point of Hillary being overqualified-

Eugene Daniels 1:06:50 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:06:51 ... her measured nature, her thinking, all of those things are terrible for running.

Don Lemon 1:06:56 But part of that comes from the rules are different for women.

Trevor Noah 1:06:59 Oh, completely.

Don Lemon 1:06:59 So she had to... Right?

Trevor Noah 1:07:00 Yeah, completely.

Don Lemon 1:07:00 So part of it comes from that. But if you see her in person, uh, uh, I don't know if she's been on your show or something.

Trevor Noah 1:07:04 Yeah, when she came to my show, yeah

Don Lemon 1:07:07 And she's like, "Hey, Don, how are you?"

Trevor Noah 1:07:09 Fire.

Don Lemon 1:07:10 "So good to see you."

Trevor Noah 1:07:10 Yeah, yeah. Another person-

Eugene Daniels 1:07:11 We've never seen that person

Don Lemon 1:07:11 ... "I just wanna..." We saw her leaving, um, uh, the Kennedy Center one, um... There was a function at the Kennedy Center, and Tim and I were like, "All right, let's get out of here," and then she [laughs] was coming around the other side, and she's like, "Let's get out." And she bumped into us, and she goes, "I just wanna go home and take my shoes off and, and eat my"

Trevor Noah 1:07:26 See?

Don Lemon 1:07:26 ... whatever, Uber Eats in bed. And we're like, "Where was that?"

Eugene Daniels 1:07:29 Mm.

Don Lemon 1:07:29 'Cause I... You know, people would have voted for that a million times. But I just, I think she probably did, you know, felt that she couldn't do that. It's-

Trevor Noah 1:07:37 Yeah, that's, but that's what, that's why I'm saying in... I, I think this goes beyond politics. I think in life, [laughs] one of the greatest challenges you'll face as a human being is knowing when your gift becomes your curse-

Don Lemon 1:07:48 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:07:49 ... and knowing when your curse becomes your gift.

Don Lemon 1:07:50 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:07:51 You, I think of it through the lens of trauma all the time, right? Many of us in these worlds or anywhere can go back to a time in our lives when things were terrible. We might have had a tough time with our parents. We might have had a tough time in our families, in our communities. We, we can go back and think, "Man, I remember hating my life," or, "I remember wanting to escape," or... But then there's a moment where that curse becomes your gift.

Don Lemon 1:08:17 Mm-hmm.

Eugene Daniels 1:08:18 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:08:18 Makes you see the world differently. It makes you process information in a way that nobody else can. It makes you think faster than other people. It... You, you deal with, with, with situations. You know what I mean? Like, when I think of my life, I'm one of the calmest people in chaos.

Don Lemon 1:08:33 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:08:33 It's because my life was chaos.

Don Lemon 1:08:34 Same here. I get so calm in chaos, and I'm just quiet, and then, Tim is a worrier. He's like, "Oh my gosh, whatever. The engagement on the shows..." I'm like, "Tim, it's all, it's fine."

Eugene Daniels 1:08:45 Mm.

Don Lemon 1:08:46 And, and, and, like, when I got arrested, I was like, "Okay." And then I kept thinking, "I'm a journalist, so I'm gonna, like, chronicle this and remember this in case I wanna, have to talk about it in court, or maybe I wanna write a book about it." And so I was just-

Trevor Noah 1:09:00 Yeah

Don Lemon 1:09:00 ... very calm, very calm, very calm.

Trevor Noah 1:09:01 But now I would go like, "What was your life like when you were growing up?"

Don Lemon 1:09:05 My li- My life wasn't chaotic. I mean, I'm a, you know, Gen X, and so we did not have very much parental supervision.

Trevor Noah 1:09:14 Those good old days.

Don Lemon 1:09:15 So I, I pretty much raised myself kind of. I mean-

Trevor Noah 1:09:18 Yeah

Don Lemon 1:09:18 ... you know, my grandmother was there, and they call it nanny now, but my grandmother was there, and she was like, she was our babysitter. But then pretty much, like, when I was... I think I was in junior high school, whatever, and the, they didn't, we didn't need my grandmother. So my parents would go away, me and my preteen sisters would be at home by ourselves. And so the t- I would come home from, uh, school. My parents, both my parents worked, and so they call them latchkey kids.

Trevor Noah 1:09:39 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 1:09:40 But, um, the, I, I... You know, the TV raised me.

Trevor Noah 1:09:43 Mm.

Don Lemon 1:09:44 The Brady Bunch, you know, when, uh-

Trevor Noah 1:09:46 Limited channels and reruns

Don Lemon 1:09:48 ... it's, it's the news you review-

Eugene Daniels 1:09:49 Bad quality, getting closer to the TV set

Trevor Noah 1:09:50 Yes, yes

Don Lemon 1:09:51 ... yeah, and then-

Eugene Daniels 1:09:51 Sitting on the floor alternating-

Don Lemon 1:09:53 Yeah

Eugene Daniels 1:09:53 ... butt cheeks.

Don Lemon 1:09:54 Yeah. And then, and, and then at night I watched a lot of television. I think Norman Lear kinda raised me. So my life wasn't very chaotic, but it wasn't as structured as, uh, I probably needed at, you know, when I was growing up.

Trevor Noah 1:10:07 But you see the... So that's what I'm saying is without even knowing the details of it, I can go, living in that type of life, most people would argue, as you said, is a little more chaotic, but that means you're gonna be calm when there's chaos.

Don Lemon 1:10:21 But I also-

Trevor Noah 1:10:22 But you... Yeah

Don Lemon 1:10:22 ... I had to take care of myself. I had to rely on me.

Trevor Noah 1:10:24 That's what I mean.

Don Lemon 1:10:24 Okay, so-

Eugene Daniels 1:10:25 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:10:25 You see?

Don Lemon 1:10:25 Right. And so then as I got older, I'm like, "I gotta take care of myself. I gotta rely on me."

Eugene Daniels 1:10:29 All the wisdom comes from you.

Don Lemon 1:10:29 "This too shall pass."

Trevor Noah 1:10:30 There you go.

Don Lemon 1:10:31 And, and, or maybe something good is gonna hap- Not maybe. Something good w- is gonna happen. Out of every situation, there's something good that happens, but I think it's bec- because I always had to rely on myself, even from a very young age.

Eugene Daniels 1:10:40 I believe, I believe in the momentum of rock bottom. I so believe in it. 'Cause once things have gotten worse, I'm like, "There's only one way now." In any situation, when the traffic gets really, really bad, I'm like, [laughs] "It can't be like this forever." I've already experienced the worst-

Don Lemon 1:10:55 Mm-hmm

Eugene Daniels 1:10:55 ... of a thing. So I'm always looking out for those moments where else I feel like when I was younger, I used to avoid those moments of chaos, of feeling helpless, of feeling stranded. Now, when that happens, I'm like, you have no idea how much of a jet propulsion that situation is. And I think we, from a generational point of view, we miss the chaos that we knew existed in how people were raising themselves, in how neighbors were involved and grandparents were involved, and then we stop being those people to kids that we have and neighbors that we have because we, we kind of miss the drunk uncle.

Trevor Noah 1:11:30 Yeah, we do.

Eugene Daniels 1:11:32 The drunk uncle was that guy.

Don Lemon 1:11:34 Man, I miss the drunk uncle.

Eugene Daniels 1:11:34 Yeah, the... [laughs] You don't miss him?

Trevor Noah 1:11:35 You also had one?

Don Lemon 1:11:36 No, I really miss the drunk uncle.

Eugene Daniels 1:11:37 He-

Trevor Noah 1:11:37 Yeah

Eugene Daniels 1:11:37 ... the drunk uncle was the guy, or-

Don Lemon 1:11:39 I had a drunk uncle, by the way, who used to drive-

Eugene Daniels 1:11:41 [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:11:42 I, I would be in the backseat and he would drive drunk.

Eugene Daniels 1:11:44 [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:11:44 And my mom said, "You cannot go and get in the car with him," because I said, "You know..." His, I, I won't say his name, but Uncle whatever.

Eugene Daniels 1:11:50 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 1:11:50 And I said, "We went to such and such place, and I was in the backseat and we were driving home, and I was like this all over the backseat." She goes, "Do not get in the car with him anymore."

Trevor Noah 1:12:00 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 1:12:00 [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:12:01 That was my drunk uncle, and I loved him.

Eugene Daniels 1:12:03 Yes. My drunk uncle used to take me to a dice game, and then when things got hectic, he would be like, "Hold the money."

Don Lemon 1:12:08 Damn.

Eugene Daniels 1:12:09 Then I would be at the back going, "Yeah, if something happens, I'm gone here."

Don Lemon 1:12:12 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 1:12:12 But then nothing ever happened.

Don Lemon 1:12:14 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 1:12:14 You know? And one day we witnessed a stabbing, but I still made it home. But we stopped being those people. There was always the drunk uncle, the successful aunt, the one who does this-

Don Lemon 1:12:25 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Eugene Daniels 1:12:25 ... the one who does that, the neighbor who got out and still comes back for family, um, occasions. But we miss television the way we grew up making television. That's why-

Don Lemon 1:12:34 Yeah

Eugene Daniels 1:12:35 ... when someone breaks away from traditional media and goes into this new media, I'm the happiest person in the world seeing them do things-

Don Lemon 1:12:41 Yeah

Eugene Daniels 1:12:41 ... the way they should be done. Because ultimately, we recreating our, our childhood. We recreating those TV moments, and I think that's why people are paying attention. And I feel sorry for this younger generation because they're just copying other copies.

Don Lemon 1:12:54 Mm.

Eugene Daniels 1:12:54 We are actually doing radio the way we used to love listening to radio, but it's called a podcast now.

Don Lemon 1:13:00 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 1:13:00 We hanging out-

Don Lemon 1:13:01 Yeah

Eugene Daniels 1:13:01 ... the way we used to love hanging out because a stranger coming in while we're having a conversation, that's never been a big deal.

Don Lemon 1:13:07 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 1:13:07 Someone walking in is never gonna be like, "So what do you do?" It will always be like, "So he's crazy, innit?" That idea of people just coming into people's houses.

Don Lemon 1:13:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eugene Daniels 1:13:15 You'd be like, "Actually, it's not a bad idea. That's exactly what we need."

Don Lemon 1:13:20 Yeah. You, look, you're right about that. And it, and speaking of, you know, we were talking about corporate media.

Eugene Daniels 1:13:24 Mm.

Don Lemon 1:13:24 Um, sometimes if my friends who are in corporate media and they're starting podcasts now, and they'll invite me on their shows, and they're like, "Okay, what are we doing in segment two?"

Eugene Daniels 1:13:31 Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Don Lemon 1:13:32 "And here's the script."

Eugene Daniels 1:13:32 With this guy.

Don Lemon 1:13:32 And I'm like, "What are we doing?"

Eugene Daniels 1:13:34 CA.

Trevor Noah 1:13:34 Were you tapping our phones, Don?

Eugene Daniels 1:13:35 Ha, you were tapping our phones. [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:13:36 It's, it's-

Trevor Noah 1:13:36 This guy was tapping our phones

Don Lemon 1:13:38 ... it's TV, it's a TV podcast.

Trevor Noah 1:13:39 This guy was tapping our... What did I say to you?

Eugene Daniels 1:13:41 My God, there's no way.

Trevor Noah 1:13:42 This guy was tapping our phones.

Don Lemon 1:13:43 No.

Eugene Daniels 1:13:43 Exactly what he said.

Don Lemon 1:13:43 And, uh, the thing is, it's like, no.

Trevor Noah 1:13:45 Exactly.

Eugene Daniels 1:13:46 This guy was tapping our phones, Eugene.

Don Lemon 1:13:47 It's like you come on like we did, and you go, "Hey, what's up?" That's what you do.

Trevor Noah 1:13:49 This guy was tapping our phones, Eugene.

Don Lemon 1:13:51 But they haven't figured it out because... And, and they're in full makeup, and-

Trevor Noah 1:13:55 This guy was tapping our phones-

Eugene Daniels 1:13:56 Full garb

Trevor Noah 1:13:57 ... Eugene.

Don Lemon 1:13:57 Full garb. And I'm like, why are you doing that? You want people to see you the other way. Like, I did a, uh, I sometimes I'll do, like, uh, updates on my phone in my pajamas. And I'm like-

Eugene Daniels 1:14:06 Do you wanna, do you wanna tell Don-

Don Lemon 1:14:07 "Here's an update"

Eugene Daniels 1:14:08 ... what is, what is the criteria for a guest on this, on this podcast?

Trevor Noah 1:14:12 Oh, 100% are you hangable? Can we hang out with you?

Eugene Daniels 1:14:16 Do you think I'm hangable?

Trevor Noah 1:14:17 Ah, Don.

Eugene Daniels 1:14:17 Geez. Oh my God. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:14:18 Ah, Don, come on.

Eugene Daniels 1:14:19 You might not be-

Trevor Noah 1:14:20 Come on, Don

Eugene Daniels 1:14:20 ... really like me.

Trevor Noah 1:14:21 This guy. This guy. You playing games, Don.

Don Lemon 1:14:23 That is the, that is the-

Trevor Noah 1:14:24 Ah, you playing games

Don Lemon 1:14:24 ... that is the number one.

Eugene Daniels 1:14:26 There's too many experts out there.

Trevor Noah 1:14:27 Come on. This is the same guy. You know, when you, you know a person who's hangable-

Eugene Daniels 1:14:29 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:14:29 ... is somebody who has range. This is somebody who I've seen report on the most serious incidents-

Don Lemon 1:14:35 [laughs] I know what you're gonna say

Trevor Noah 1:14:35 ... happening in America, and then somebody who got drunk at New Year's Eve-

Don Lemon 1:14:39 I knew you were gonna say that. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:14:42 [laughs] On the ballers dropping, being like, "L- Lemon Tea. Yo, ma- I don't even know where she go. Yo." And you see, like, in that moment, genuinely, I remember liking you more. I went, "This guy."

Eugene Daniels 1:14:52 You're my guy.

Trevor Noah 1:14:53 I wrote... Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 1:14:54 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:14:54 Because, no, because it was, it was, I was like, "Oh, he's a human being."

Don Lemon 1:14:58 Yeah. And you guess what? Now everybody's getting drunk on New Year's Eve. Before, they're like, "You can't... What are you doing?"

Eugene Daniels 1:15:04 Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:15:04 I had people who were calling and said, "You have to, uh, maintain your stature as a journalist-

Trevor Noah 1:15:08 There you go

Don Lemon 1:15:08 ... and especially a Black man in this society." I'm like, "It's fucking New Year's Eve."

Eugene Daniels 1:15:12 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 1:15:12 "Nobody's talking policy. Everybody is sitting at home getting lit, and so why can't I?" And some of it is, like, you're ju- you get into it. I'm not stumbling drunk like people are.

Trevor Noah 1:15:21 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Don Lemon 1:15:21 Not, you know, it's, uh, it's like a little bit like Dean Martin in the, uh-

Trevor Noah 1:15:24 Yeah, you enjoy it

Don Lemon 1:15:25 ... in the Rat Pack.

Trevor Noah 1:15:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Don Lemon 1:15:26 Yeah, you just, uh, you, you enjoy it.

Trevor Noah 1:15:28 Mm.

Don Lemon 1:15:28 So, but-

Trevor Noah 1:15:29 Yeah, but you see what I mean?

Eugene Daniels 1:15:30 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:15:30 Now, because it was a success, because of how viral it went, because of everyone goes, "Uh, would you like a-

Eugene Daniels 1:15:36 You were not trying to make a show

Trevor Noah 1:15:37 ... would you like..." But now people are going to try-

Eugene Daniels 1:15:39 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:15:39 ... to get drunk-

Eugene Daniels 1:15:40 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:15:40 ... on New Year's Eve when covering it for the news because they wish to re- recreate the same thing that happened. It's, it's-

Don Lemon 1:15:48 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:15:48 ... man, your, life is weird how your, like, your gift will just be your curse. It'll just, it'll just keep on coming back around.

Don Lemon 1:15:53 If it's not, as you said, authentic, authenticity, if it's not authentic-

Trevor Noah 1:15:56 Oh, no

Don Lemon 1:15:56 ... to you, people will sniff it out immediately.

Trevor Noah 1:16:00 Yeah. On-

Don Lemon 1:16:00 And they'll say, "Ugh, no. I, I don't dig this."

Trevor Noah 1:16:03 We'll be right back after this. [upbeat music] I have a question for you, 'cause I, I was thinking about this. I thought of it earlier, and then it came back to me now. Do you think gay guys have more fun in relationships than straight guys?

Eugene Daniels 1:16:24 Absolutely.

Trevor Noah 1:16:25 Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm asking the other gay man at the table.

Don Lemon 1:16:29 Well, he said, well, he, he said no.

Eugene Daniels 1:16:29 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:16:29 I'm ask-

Don Lemon 1:16:30 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:16:30 The other gay man at the table, Eugene. Please. Please.

Eugene Daniels 1:16:34 What? [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:16:35 And Eugene-

Eugene Daniels 1:16:36 Why does it hurt so bad-

Don Lemon 1:16:37 Yes, Eugene

Eugene Daniels 1:16:38 ... when someone else does it? We do it to each other all the time. [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:16:41 Being gay is not an insult, Eugene.

Trevor Noah 1:16:43 [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:16:43 It's, I think it's a compliment.

Eugene Daniels 1:16:45 [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:16:46 That means you're, you know, you're hip and cool.

Trevor Noah 1:16:48 Sm- it means you smell good.

Don Lemon 1:16:49 You smell good. You dress well.

Trevor Noah 1:16:51 It means you look good. It means you know what's happening, Eugene.

Don Lemon 1:16:52 You're an overachiever.

Trevor Noah 1:16:53 Got him. [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 1:16:55 When we started doing this podcast, you guys-

Don Lemon 1:16:56 It means you wear a jean jacket with a black T-shirt-

Trevor Noah 1:17:00 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 1:17:01 [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:17:01 ... and clear glasses. That's what it means.

Trevor Noah 1:17:03 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 1:17:05 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:17:06 No, but really, do you think-

Don Lemon 1:17:07 I'm not gay, but my podcast partner is.

Trevor Noah 1:17:09 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 1:17:11 [laughs] You need to leave.

Trevor Noah 1:17:14 [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:17:15 What were you saying?

Trevor Noah 1:17:16 No, do you-

Don Lemon 1:17:16 Oh, do I think they have...

Trevor Noah 1:17:17 Yeah. Do you think-

Don Lemon 1:17:17 Uh, yes, I do.

Trevor Noah 1:17:18 Yeah. Why, why do you think that is?

Don Lemon 1:17:19 Uh, because I think that, you know, I think we have better things to worry about than some performative thing-

Trevor Noah 1:17:26 Mm. Huh

Don Lemon 1:17:27 ... um, about what marriage or relationships should be like. I actually... Look, I'm in sort of a very heteronormative relationship now.

Trevor Noah 1:17:34 Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:17:34 We are monogamous. The whole, the blah, blah, blah, blah. But if we weren't, I, you know, nobody... So I, I don't judge couples who are, have open relationships or whatever.

Trevor Noah 1:17:42 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But-

Don Lemon 1:17:43 But yeah, I mean, it's two men. Men are horny and fun, and they like to have fun. And also, it's not, sex is not an emotional thing for men.

Trevor Noah 1:17:51 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 1:17:52 It's like, "Ah, yeah, that's right. That's, it's okay." But a woman, it's like, "Oh my gosh." You know what I mean? Generally.

Trevor Noah 1:17:57 Yes. Yes.

Don Lemon 1:17:58 There are very few women who are like Samantha on

Don Lemon 1:18:00 Sex and the City.

Trevor Noah 1:18:00 Well, well, it's actually funny. I think Esther Perel said it, said it beautifully once. She said, "We have a misconception that sex is not emotional for men. It's just the emotions happen at a different time for men-

Don Lemon 1:18:10 Yeah. [laughs] That's true

Trevor Noah 1:18:11 ... than for women."

Don Lemon 1:18:12 That's true.

Trevor Noah 1:18:12 So the sex is emotional for everybody-

Don Lemon 1:18:14 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:18:14 ... but it's more when the emotions present themselves-

Don Lemon 1:18:17 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:18:18 ... that, that, that we're not so aware of. Were, were you gay your whole life?

Don Lemon 1:18:22 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:18:23 So-

Don Lemon 1:18:24 Yeah, I, uh, at a very early age-

Trevor Noah 1:18:25 Yeah

Don Lemon 1:18:25 ... I knew that I was, but I didn't know quite what it meant sexually.

Trevor Noah 1:18:30 Mm.

Don Lemon 1:18:30 But I also knew that it was something I had to hide, because-

Trevor Noah 1:18:32 In the South as well?

Don Lemon 1:18:33 Oh my gosh.

Trevor Noah 1:18:34 Very religious family?

Don Lemon 1:18:35 Oh my gosh, yeah. I mean, it's even worse in the South. Look at the, what happened in the South now.

Trevor Noah 1:18:39 Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:18:39 The Bible Belt and all of that, and Louisiana, Deep South. You don't get much more Southern than that. Um, yeah, so I always knew. I always knew it was something that I had to hide. And then the moment I stopped hiding it, that's when I became me, more authentic.

Trevor Noah 1:18:53 When, w- when did you come out?

Don Lemon 1:18:55 I sort of came out to my friends and, and coworkers. So I was out with friends.

Trevor Noah 1:19:00 Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:19:00 Like, my mom used to say, like, "How do you guy- how do the gays find each other?"

Trevor Noah 1:19:05 [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:19:05 Because she had never experienced so many, uh, like, gay men openly, like, you know-

Trevor Noah 1:19:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah

Don Lemon 1:19:10 ... in community. And so when she started to come into my circle, and she real- she's like, "These are really great people." She goes, "I think-

Trevor Noah 1:19:15 Oh

Don Lemon 1:19:15 ... I gotta tell you, Don, I think that gay people are the smartest people in the world."

Trevor Noah 1:19:19 Oh.

Don Lemon 1:19:19 And I was just like, "Oh, okay." And she said, "Your homes are beautiful."

Trevor Noah 1:19:23 Oh, man.

Don Lemon 1:19:23 "The way you dress. Everybody's smart. Everybody has something interesting to say." She says, "That doesn't happen with us." 'Cause I look at my friends [laughs] and I go, "What the hell? You, w- are you stupid? Why'd you say that?" So anyways, um, I, you know- It's, it was something that I had to hide until, until I didn't have to hide it

Trevor Noah 1:19:40 Were you... wh- wh- who were you most afraid of when, when you had to come out?

Don Lemon 1:19:44 Well, I came out, as I was saying, I came out, uh, to friends. I was out with friends, and then I left Louisiana-

Trevor Noah 1:19:50 Yeah

Don Lemon 1:19:50 ... because I knew that, you know, I had to leave in order to become me.

Trevor Noah 1:19:54 Right

Don Lemon 1:19:54 And also, my journalism teacher at LSU told me I would never make it as a journalist. I'm like, "Okay, whatever." He was right. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:20:01 [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:20:03 So I, I moved to New York City and I started, you know, dating people and coming out, and the people at work, like, knew that I was gay. And then I started, you know, gaining success, and I moved, um, around the country doing local news in the, in those markets. I was out to my friends, but I never talked about it-

Trevor Noah 1:20:19 Mm

Don Lemon 1:20:19 ... openly-

Trevor Noah 1:20:19 Yeah

Don Lemon 1:20:20 ... professionally. And then someone said, "Hey, I, you know, like, you're, what you're doing is great. I think you have a book in you. You should write a book." And I started writing a book about my journeys in journalism and life and whatever, and I got to the part where I left Louisiana and I'm like, "Oh, am I gonna be the person who lies about it?"

Trevor Noah 1:20:42 Mm.

Don Lemon 1:20:42 Silent, because there is deception in silence.

Trevor Noah 1:20:44 Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:20:44 There's a certain deception in silence. And I said, "If I'm gonna be authentic, and I have to have the same rules for myself that I have for the guests that come on, like, they must be candid." And I said, "I just wrote about it." It's, like, two or three pages in the book, and it's like I had to move for this reason, and I needed to become myself, and I was a gay person. And at that point, I knew that I could not do that in Louisiana. And so I moved to New York City, and I just wrote that, and then it became a huge thing back then.

Trevor Noah 1:21:12 It did.

Don Lemon 1:21:12 This was 2011. Things are different now.

Trevor Noah 1:21:14 Yeah, yeah.

Don Lemon 1:21:15 That was a big deal.

Trevor Noah 1:21:16 That's, I could, I can only imagine.

Don Lemon 1:21:16 And a, to have a ma- a news anchor on a major network like CNN come out, no one had done that. I think Rachel was out, but, uh, Rachel Maddow, but she wasn't Rachel Maddow-

Trevor Noah 1:21:25 And how many Black men had done that?

Don Lemon 1:21:26 ... like she is now. Zero. I was, like, the first to come out. Among the first, if not the first.

Trevor Noah 1:21:31 Did you lose anyone?

Don Lemon 1:21:34 Yeah, I lost that person that, the f- person that I was before who was afraid of coming out and afraid of losing their livelihood.

Trevor Noah 1:21:41 Damn, that's beautiful.

Don Lemon 1:21:42 So I lost that person, but everybody else, no. If, if I lost you because of that, fuck it, I don't, I didn't give a shit.

Trevor Noah 1:21:48 Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:21:48 But that was a real thing because people would say, you know, there were rumors, um, but I never really talked about it. And then now I don't really care. And then I, it's hard for me to, um, in this day and age, I get it, but people who are in a safe place and who are not out, I'm like, "Okay, don't do that." But that's not my business. It happens.

Trevor Noah 1:22:12 What do you think people don't realize they're missing out on by not coming out? And not, like, let's say publicly writing a book, but just what do you, what do you think they're missing out on?

Don Lemon 1:22:22 I wish that we did not have to s- you know, come out because-

Trevor Noah 1:22:26 Yeah

Don Lemon 1:22:26 ... human sexuality is so... You know, it is a spectrum.

Trevor Noah 1:22:29 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:22:29 And just-

Trevor Noah 1:22:30 Actually, that's, that's a great question for you is, so-

Don Lemon 1:22:33 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:22:33 ... is it gay if somebody tries once?

Don Lemon 1:22:35 No.

Trevor Noah 1:22:36 Okay. When does it become gay? I'm asking for a friend.

Don Lemon 1:22:39 Uh. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:22:44 [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:22:44 Well, why don't you ask him because you remember-

Trevor Noah 1:22:46 [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:22:47 ... you remember the other night when we hung out, I didn't wanna... Okay, should I tell him? You don't want me to tell him?

Trevor Noah 1:22:53 You know what?

Don Lemon 1:22:53 Well-

Trevor Noah 1:22:53 No, it's fine. [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:22:56 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:22:56 Ay. [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:22:58 No, I don't, I don't think that it's, I don't think that it's gay if you try. But there, look, I have been gay for a long time.

Trevor Noah 1:23:06 Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:23:06 And there are people I know that I have hooked up with who are now married with children, married to women, and I don't think that they're gay. I just think that they're horny or that they are human, and they-

Trevor Noah 1:23:16 Mm

Don Lemon 1:23:16 ... did something. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're gay.

Trevor Noah 1:23:18 Right.

Don Lemon 1:23:18 Um, look at what happens when people are in close quarters [laughs] when they go to prison or whatever, they call it gay for the stay.

Trevor Noah 1:23:24 Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:23:24 Because we have h- we have urges. And especially when you're younger, your hormones are going crazy. So no, I don't believe that, nor do I believe that it should be judged. I think if we were, we weren't so puritanical in this society and it wasn't so based on religion, which it shouldn't be, then we might have healthier-

Trevor Noah 1:23:41 Mm

Don Lemon 1:23:42 ... people, and we wouldn't judge-

Trevor Noah 1:23:44 And a safer society

Don Lemon 1:23:44 ... anyone by their sexuality. And a safer society.

Trevor Noah 1:23:46 Yeah. The safer society is the big, the biggest one.

Don Lemon 1:23:48 Trevor, look at, look at... All you have to do is, like, s- scroll through your news feed and you look at all of the conservative people, the Christian people who get in trouble-

Trevor Noah 1:23:58 Mm

Don Lemon 1:23:58 ... for doing weird things with kids, or they're saying, "Oh, gays are the worst."

Trevor Noah 1:24:02 Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:24:02 And they end up being gay, and they're on Grindr.

Trevor Noah 1:24:04 Who was the guy now with the-

Don Lemon 1:24:06 With the boobs

Trevor Noah 1:24:06 ... the boob pictures? What, who's-

Don Lemon 1:24:07 I liked him more after that. I was like-

Trevor Noah 1:24:09 I did, actually

Don Lemon 1:24:10 ... I liked him more. Uh, it, Brian Nome.

Trevor Noah 1:24:12 Yes.

Don Lemon 1:24:12 Christie Nome's husband.

Trevor Noah 1:24:13 Christie Nome's husband. And then-

Don Lemon 1:24:15 What did he do?

Trevor Noah 1:24:16 He was found on websites or dating sites or-

Don Lemon 1:24:19 He liked big, he's like, that was a fetish for him.

Trevor Noah 1:24:20 Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:24:21 Big boobs.

Trevor Noah 1:24:21 He would, he would basically dress up sort of as a woman, but then put-

Don Lemon 1:24:24 Gigantic

Trevor Noah 1:24:25 ... fake, giant, massive boobs and then go talk to women also, I guess, with-

Don Lemon 1:24:28 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:24:28 ... giant boobs, and it was a whole thing and... But-

Don Lemon 1:24:31 He wasn't g- I don't think he's gay.

Trevor Noah 1:24:33 No, no, no, no, no.

Don Lemon 1:24:33 I just think it's-

Trevor Noah 1:24:34 That's just a big boob

Don Lemon 1:24:34 ... he just, that's his thing. That's his thing.

Trevor Noah 1:24:35 That's his penchant, and that's fine.

Don Lemon 1:24:37 That's his, I'm not judging.

Trevor Noah 1:24:38 And that's, that's his thing, and that's fine. And it, it really is interesting-

Don Lemon 1:24:43 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:24:43 ... how, not just interesting, it's also sad how many of these people are in power espousing one idea.

Don Lemon 1:24:53 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:24:54 And then they get exposed for literally living the life that they have condemned in the worst way possible. But then they don't, [sighs] there isn't, like, a, a, like, a redemption is maybe the wrong word, but I, I wish that would make them go like, "H- hey, look, I, so I, I, I, yeah, I, I actually am a conservative and I am also-

Don Lemon 1:25:16 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:25:16 ... this, and I am... So we can be..." Do, do you get what I'm saying?

Don Lemon 1:25:19 They, they can't do that.

Eugene Daniels 1:25:20 Yeah. But I, I guess sometimes I think when you're in a position of power authority, it's easier to live a lie because most of the things that you see when you're up there-

Don Lemon 1:25:29 Yes

Eugene Daniels 1:25:29 ... are a lie.

Don Lemon 1:25:30 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 1:25:31 Work hard-

Trevor Noah 1:25:31 Oh

Eugene Daniels 1:25:31 ... you'll get somewhere.

Trevor Noah 1:25:32 Okay.

Eugene Daniels 1:25:33 You know, if you save your money, your money will earn interest. You know you have to study, and then you'll get a position.

Trevor Noah 1:25:37 Okay, yeah, yeah.

Eugene Daniels 1:25:38 Then a person goes, "N- nothing here is true" Nothing here is true, so one lie from me is not gonna make a, a big difference. But from what I'm hearing from Don is we must treat people who experiment the same way we treat people who put avocado on pizza. [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:25:55 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 1:25:55 It might not belong there.

Don Lemon 1:25:56 No, dude.

Eugene Daniels 1:25:57 [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:25:57 Tell me this isn't true.

Eugene Daniels 1:25:58 [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:25:58 I'm gonna get up now.

Eugene Daniels 1:25:59 [laughs] Oh, you don't like it when you... [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:26:02 Ugh. Are you an avocado toast person?

Eugene Daniels 1:26:05 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:26:05 No, I don't put avocado on pizza. Yeah, I don't know where that came-

Eugene Daniels 1:26:07 You don't?

Trevor Noah 1:26:08 Avocado on pizza.

Eugene Daniels 1:26:10 Trevor.

Trevor Noah 1:26:10 I don't put av... Which pizza have I ever added avocado to?

Don Lemon 1:26:15 I'm thi- Mommy and Daddy-

Trevor Noah 1:26:16 No, no, no, Eugene, Eugene

Don Lemon 1:26:16 ... Mom, Daddy and Daddy are fighting.

Trevor Noah 1:26:18 Eugene.

Don Lemon 1:26:18 I'm uncomfortable.

Eugene Daniels 1:26:19 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:26:19 Eugene. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Eugene.

Eugene Daniels 1:26:20 Trevor.

Trevor Noah 1:26:20 Eugene.

Eugene Daniels 1:26:21 I was-

Trevor Noah 1:26:21 Eugene

Eugene Daniels 1:26:22 ... Giovanni's-

Trevor Noah 1:26:23 Eugene

Eugene Daniels 1:26:24 ... put-

Trevor Noah 1:26:24 Large pepperoni

Eugene Daniels 1:26:25 ... put avocado on pizza.

Trevor Noah 1:26:28 Uh, my friend.

Eugene Daniels 1:26:29 Sh-

Trevor Noah 1:26:29 My friend, you can accuse me of many things.

Eugene Daniels 1:26:32 Gay?

Trevor Noah 1:26:32 I will be gay on Epstein Island before I have put avocado on pizza, son. And to be clear, there's nothing wrong with being gay. Something wrong with being on Epstein's island.

Eugene Daniels 1:26:43 Sharp.

Trevor Noah 1:26:43 Unless you were, like-

Eugene Daniels 1:26:44 Like what? I'll give you a-

Trevor Noah 1:26:44 ... working as like a cleaner or something and you knew-

Eugene Daniels 1:26:45 Or the photographer-

Trevor Noah 1:26:46 ... what was happening

Eugene Daniels 1:26:46 ... because no one ever found that guy

Trevor Noah 1:26:48 Actually, who was taking all those pictures now that we think about it?

Eugene Daniels 1:26:49 Who was developing the pictures?

Trevor Noah 1:26:51 Who was developing the pictures and not saying anything?

Eugene Daniels 1:26:52 Yeah, which shop was printing?

Don Lemon 1:26:53 There's so many questions. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:26:54 Was it, like, King Cole's?

Don Lemon 1:26:55 You guys are going here.

Trevor Noah 1:26:55 Who at King Cole's was developing those pictures-

Eugene Daniels 1:26:57 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:26:57 ... and not saying anything?

Don Lemon 1:26:58 Oh, my gosh. You guys joke about this a lot. Does it bother you that people think that you're gay?

Trevor Noah 1:27:04 Me?

Don Lemon 1:27:04 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:27:04 Not even-

Eugene Daniels 1:27:05 You-

Trevor Noah 1:27:05 ... not even in the slightest

Eugene Daniels 1:27:06 ... that's the last, that's the last person that it bothers

Trevor Noah 1:27:08 Not even in the-

Eugene Daniels 1:27:09 Because we say it so lightly

Don Lemon 1:27:09 Because I, I saw the internet rumors that Trevor-

Eugene Daniels 1:27:12 [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:27:12 ... Trevor is gay, and I don't know.

Trevor Noah 1:27:13 Not even in the slightest. [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 1:27:15 We say, we say to each other all the time.

Trevor Noah 1:27:18 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 1:27:18 You're the only person that has ever said it. Ryan and Trevor and I say to each other all the time-

Trevor Noah 1:27:24 There's noth- it's-

Eugene Daniels 1:27:24 ... "Are you being gay? That's gay"

Trevor Noah 1:27:25 ... it's, there's nothing... It's... So here-

Eugene Daniels 1:27:27 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:27:27 Okay.

Eugene Daniels 1:27:28 So funny

Trevor Noah 1:27:28 Here's, here's what it is for me. I'm, I, I am very lucky, I'll say this, I'm very lucky in that my mother, who was my primary caregiver growing up, had this, and still has a very, um... It's almost n- not progressive in the way she sees the world. So, so my mom, for instance, never really got into labels.

Eugene Daniels 1:27:52 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:27:53 You get what I'm saying?

Don Lemon 1:27:54 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:27:54 My mom was very, um, as she would say it, tomboyish, uh, when she was growing up. So my mom did... You know, she played sports, and she was rough, and she was this, and she was da, da, da, da, da, da. And so when my mom would meet, like, a gay or lesbian person, she almost treats it like you're just experiencing something in life.

Eugene Daniels 1:28:12 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:28:12 And she doesn't know how long that experience will be. It could be one year.

Don Lemon 1:28:16 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:28:16 It could be the whole, your whole life.

Don Lemon 1:28:17 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:28:18 She does not think of it as, like, your, your label and your conditioning or your anything. So she doesn't think of it as good or bad.

Don Lemon 1:28:24 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:28:24 She just goes like, "Oh, that's, uh... Okay." Uh, e- like, if she met you as Don and be like, "Oh, Don Lemon." And then let's say it came out that you were gay, like, in a conversation, she'd be like, "Oh, wow. And, and, and, and how long are you, are you... Oh, wow. And you... So you're gonna do it forever. Wow."

Don Lemon 1:28:37 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:28:38 But she wouldn't treat it like it's a bad thing. She'd just be like, "Oh, damn, you're doing, you're doing this. This is, this is how you live your life."

Eugene Daniels 1:28:43 And-

Trevor Noah 1:28:44 The same way she'll talk to somebody-

Don Lemon 1:28:44 But by the way-

Trevor Noah 1:28:45 ... who's married, by the way. Does that make sense?

Don Lemon 1:28:48 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:28:48 So if she talks to a married person, she'll also go, "So you mar... Oh, wow. And how long have you been married? Wow. And you're gonna be married your whole life. Wow."

Eugene Daniels 1:28:55 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:28:56 She, she just sees your decisions in life or the w- your proclivities or the way you are as you.

Eugene Daniels 1:29:01 But I guess also, Tina, we were lucky because growing up, we were never exposed to shows, content-

Don Lemon 1:29:09 Wait, what'd you call him?

Eugene Daniels 1:29:09 Hmm?

Don Lemon 1:29:09 What'd you just say? What'd you call him?

Eugene Daniels 1:29:10 Tina. He's us.

Trevor Noah 1:29:11 Oh, no, Tina. No, Tina means us.

Don Lemon 1:29:13 Oh, okay.

Trevor Noah 1:29:13 Tina is a-

Don Lemon 1:29:14 Okay.

Trevor Noah 1:29:14 Yeah, yeah. Zulu word for us.

Don Lemon 1:29:15 I was like, "I haven't-"

Trevor Noah 1:29:15 You thought you called me Tina.

Don Lemon 1:29:16 Yeah, [laughs] I thought-

Trevor Noah 1:29:16 That would be... Because now you knew-

Eugene Daniels 1:29:17 Don-

Trevor Noah 1:29:18 ... a fact. You-

Eugene Daniels 1:29:18 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:29:18 Don was like, "Whoa.

Don Lemon 1:29:19 Is that your drag name?

Trevor Noah 1:29:20 You called me Tina." [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 1:29:23 [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:29:23 Hey.

Trevor Noah 1:29:23 And Don caught that quick.

Eugene Daniels 1:29:25 Tina, what's going on here?

Trevor Noah 1:29:26 Tina Noah. [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 1:29:27 [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:29:29 Tonight, performing at the Roxy, Tina Noah.

Trevor Noah 1:29:32 I am who I am.

Eugene Daniels 1:29:34 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:29:34 I don't need joy. [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:29:35 And by the way, when I told you that there's always a way to ask a question.

Trevor Noah 1:29:39 Yes.

Don Lemon 1:29:39 I asked you if you were gay in, in that question.

Trevor Noah 1:29:42 Oh, that's fascinating.

Don Lemon 1:29:44 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 1:29:44 It's good, this one.

Don Lemon 1:29:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:29:45 Oh, that is fascinating.

Don Lemon 1:29:46 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:29:47 Yeah, but you're saying-

Eugene Daniels 1:29:48 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:29:49 We didn't-

Don Lemon 1:29:49 Have you ever thought about it?

Trevor Noah 1:29:50 No.

Eugene Daniels 1:29:51 [laughs] Well, uh... [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:29:55 [laughs]

Eugene Daniels 1:29:55 So I was saying that we, growing up, we missed that bus of stigmatizing people who are gay.

Don Lemon 1:30:02 Mm.

Eugene Daniels 1:30:02 So we never, we, we never had those shows, we never had those movies where people who are gay are being victimized.

Trevor Noah 1:30:09 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 1:30:09 So-

Trevor Noah 1:30:09 May- maybe for, like... And I mean, like, us in a-

Eugene Daniels 1:30:11 Us growing up

Trevor Noah 1:30:11 ... small circle.

Eugene Daniels 1:30:12 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:30:12 Yeah, just us.

Eugene Daniels 1:30:13 So-

Trevor Noah 1:30:13 We're not saying for everyone, us

Eugene Daniels 1:30:14 ... Tina, we, we use the word gay as a way of saying you don't wanna do that.

Trevor Noah 1:30:20 Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:30:20 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:30:20 It's not a, it's not a s-

Eugene Daniels 1:30:21 So you don't wanna... Let's go ride a bicycle in the cold. Nah, I don't want. Nah.

Don Lemon 1:30:24 That's gay.

Eugene Daniels 1:30:25 You're being gay.

Don Lemon 1:30:25 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 1:30:25 We're not... So it w- Do you understand what I mean?

Don Lemon 1:30:28 Yeah.

Eugene Daniels 1:30:28 It was never derogatory for us because we never... And I-

Trevor Noah 1:30:31 No

Eugene Daniels 1:30:31 ... and, and when you see the history, maybe like in New York, of how the gay community was being targeted and how they had to form little communities of dancing and doing makeup and doing shows and just being free with each other, you're like, oh, okay. If you grew up seeing that, you would understand that there was a group of people who believed in a certain thing that were victimized by the rest of everyone. Is that right?

Don Lemon 1:30:54 Yes. But I, I understand that.

Eugene Daniels 1:30:56 100%.

Don Lemon 1:30:57 But you understand that when I said being gay is not an insult.

Eugene Daniels 1:31:01 Yeah, absolutely.

Don Lemon 1:31:01 You're still using it as an insult.

Trevor Noah 1:31:02 Uh, but we'll use it for everything.

Eugene Daniels 1:31:03 Yeah, yeah, Tina.

Trevor Noah 1:31:04 No, no, what I'm saying is we even use other things as an insult.

Eugene Daniels 1:31:06 Yeah, yeah. Don't, don't even bet on us, Tina.

Trevor Noah 1:31:09 We will, we will, no, we will use-

Eugene Daniels 1:31:11 Everywhere

Trevor Noah 1:31:12 ... but we'll use anything as an insult. We can, we can use, like, w- like you're being Xhosa now.

Eugene Daniels 1:31:16 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:31:17 Does that make sense?

Don Lemon 1:31:18 You're being what?

Trevor Noah 1:31:18 Xhosa. So I'm, I'm Xhosa.

Don Lemon 1:31:20 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:31:20 My c- family, my culture, Xhosa.

Don Lemon 1:31:22 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:31:22 So Xhosa, Zulu, Tswana, Tsonga, et cetera.

Don Lemon 1:31:24 Oh, got it.

Trevor Noah 1:31:24 But you can say that... Sometimes people will say it with like, "I'm a Shangaan."

Eugene Daniels 1:31:27 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:31:28 You'll be-

Eugene Daniels 1:31:28 If you're being colorful-

Trevor Noah 1:31:29 Yeah

Eugene Daniels 1:31:30 ... you're being Shangaan now.

Trevor Noah 1:31:31 It's-

Eugene Daniels 1:31:31 If you're being stubborn, you're being Zulu now.

Trevor Noah 1:31:33 So it's not the, the thing-

Eugene Daniels 1:31:34 If you have voice conflict-

Trevor Noah 1:31:35 ... is not the insult

Eugene Daniels 1:31:35 ... you're being-

Trevor Noah 1:31:36 But you know what's interesting is the more, the more you travel, the more you realize-

Eugene Daniels 1:31:39 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:31:40 ... how, depending on how you view it, I think it's beautifully complicated these things can be. A simple example When I came to America, it was interesting to see how sensitive people got if you referred to their weight. Like, if you said, "You're fat," or, "You've gained weight," or you-

Don Lemon 1:31:59 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:31:59 Mm-hmm ... it was like a, it's the one of the biggest taboos. I'll tell you growing up in South Africa, in most parts of Africa that I've been to, my friends from the Middle East will tell me this as well, fat was, like, a compliment, and if your grandparents said it to you, they never said it in, like, a, a ne- a negative way. Mm-hmm. They were like, "Oh, look at you, you're getting fat."

Don Lemon 1:32:17 You're doing well.

Trevor Noah 1:32:18 Yeah, and it was-

Don Lemon 1:32:19 Like, you must be eating well

Trevor Noah 1:32:19 ... it was genuinely you're doing well.

Don Lemon 1:32:21 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:32:21 More kids, when I was growing up, were roasted for being skinny. Yeah. Like, that was, oh my God. The nicknames. Sticks Manzanza. [laughs] Skinny Malindi.

Don Lemon 1:32:30 Do, do you, do you ever use the N-word? Do you ever?

Trevor Noah 1:32:32 Yeah, yeah.

Don Lemon 1:32:32 Do they use the N-word in Africa?

Trevor Noah 1:32:34 Yeah, but a- Yeah. But again- You know. No, but this is a perfect- You get a slap in the face. [laughs] No, but this is a perfect example. We used it and still use it because it was, like, the most aspirational thing that existed in our world. Mm-hmm. It, it's funny, we were chilling, chilling with Vic Mensa on the show. Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 1:32:48 I love Vic.

Trevor Noah 1:32:48 And Vic was saying whenever Africans use the N-word, he's a little bit like... [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:32:54 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:32:54 He's like, "You guys are not saying it right."

Don Lemon 1:32:55 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:32:56 He's like, "The way you're saying it," he's like, "Niga." [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:32:58 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:32:58 He's like, "Mm, I don't know. It doesn't..." He's like, "I'm with you, but you're, you're saying it wrong. You're, there's too many Es in the word. There's too many..." But I, I genuinely find it beautiful because I, if you are... Here's, here's how I'll put it. I think social media has robbed us of the nuance of the, of the concentric circles that our lives are lived within.

Don Lemon 1:33:26 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:33:26 Mm-hmm. There are things you will say with your husband that you would never say to somebody who's not your husband. In public. Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 1:33:33 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:33:34 And then we expand it. There's things you'd say to your family-

Don Lemon 1:33:36 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:33:36 ... that you would never say outside of your family. You expand it. There's things you'd say with your friends that you'd never say. It, that, it, that, that, that, that. You, you know what I mean?

Don Lemon 1:33:42 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:33:43 We've now made it seem like the words and phrases that we may use in our tiniest circles are the things that we, Eugene and I would never say certain things to other people, regardless of what the word is.

Don Lemon 1:33:53 Right, right.

Trevor Noah 1:33:54 Mm-hmm. Because we know this is, no, you're not, you don't roll with us. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? We wouldn't say anything,

Trevor Noah 1:34:00 uh, Shangaan, we wouldn't say Tsonga- Mm-hmm ... because we know p- it's a derogatory term sometimes to say Shangaan. Mm-hmm. We, there's just, like... But I, d- do, do you ever feel like that? It's like we've-

Don Lemon 1:34:09 I, I do

Trevor Noah 1:34:09 ... we've robbed ourselves a- as people of the ability to know that something is wrong, but within the context of friendships and relationships, has no malice attached to it.

Don Lemon 1:34:19 I'm glad you said that because I've been dying to, when I, when I knew that, when you asked me to be on the show, and then I saw this, I was like, "Oh, I gotta ask Trevor about this." So you said that you know, you, you don't say things that you know are wrong or inappropriate for that particular circle or what have you.

Trevor Noah 1:34:35 I try my best not to, yeah.

Don Lemon 1:34:36 Yeah. So the Kevin Hart roast.

Trevor Noah 1:34:38 Yes.

Don Lemon 1:34:38 How'd you feel about that?

Trevor Noah 1:34:40 Man, I, I had too many feelings about the Kevin Hart roast. Um, I think the first feeling I had was maybe, maybe I was naive or maybe roasts have changed, but, like, I, I didn't like that the roast was as written as it was for everyone.

Don Lemon 1:34:56 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:34:56 Mm-hmm. That's the first thing I'll say, right? Because in my opinion, a roast is supposed to be an opportunity for each person to write the funniest expression of how they feel about another person. Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 1:35:09 And do their authentic brand of comedy.

Trevor Noah 1:35:10 Yes. Yeah. But even if it's not- The way they would say ... but even if it's not true-

Don Lemon 1:35:13 Right

Trevor Noah 1:35:13 ... you're going, "What are all the things I can roast Eugene about? What are all the things I can roast Don about? And they're not true, but these are things that s- come from my lens." Mm-hmm. "I, I, I think I can make these things funny." That's, and, and it's, it's, it comes from a place of love. That's what I think a good roast is supposed to be. It's supposed to be people who know you, people who like you, and then you can, and there'll be, like, edges on the dais because you might not know someone, so you can, shots can get fired in any direction. Mm-hmm. So that's, that's, like, on a, like, on a comedy writing side. I was like, huh. It was weird when people were like, "Let's scroll past that on the prompter," and, "Oh, the writers gave me that."

Don Lemon 1:35:46 Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:35:46 And I was like, "Wait, what are we do-

Don Lemon 1:35:47 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:35:47 "Then why don't the writers just come and do this?"

Don Lemon 1:35:49 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:35:49 That's the first thought I had. Mm. The second feeling I had was it was just a weird one. I felt like it was weird that all the Black comedians who came on stage told jokes about the people who were there.

Don Lemon 1:36:03 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:36:04 But then a lot of the white comedians who came on told jokes about Black people.

Don Lemon 1:36:09 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:36:10 Mm. A people. I was like, I was like, "Wait, wait, wait. I thought it was the roast of Kevin Hart."

Don Lemon 1:36:14 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:36:15 Say what you want about Sheryl Underwood, say what you want about Regina, say what you want about Naeem or whoever's up there, but it was weird that, like, just, it, this was just, like, a Black joke-

Don Lemon 1:36:24 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:36:24 ... that had nothing to do with a person, and then you, you could just, you're like, "Wait, George Floyd? What?" The roast of Black people. Yeah, but you're like, "But what does George Floyd have..." I don't even understand the, the connecting thread between George Floyd and Kevin Hart. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You haven't shown me-

Don Lemon 1:36:39 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:36:40 ... the connecting thread at all. I, I don't, I don't know, what did, what did you feel?

Don Lemon 1:36:45 Uh, look, I'm all for free speech, and, and comedy, I think that comedians should be given a wide berth.

Trevor Noah 1:36:51 Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:36:51 But the really good ones understand how to do it, and there must be a there there. I thought with some of those jokes, there's no there there. I, look, uh, Kevin Hart, I'm a huge fan of Kevin Hart. I really admire what he's done business-wise, you know, so that's a whole nother thing. But, um, I thought that, I was uncomfortable with some of the white comedians who were making jokes about Black people.

Trevor Noah 1:37:15 Mm.

Don Lemon 1:37:15 I felt that it was just an excuse for them to be racist-

Trevor Noah 1:37:19 That's what I mean, yeah

Don Lemon 1:37:20 ... in public, in public. And-

Trevor Noah 1:37:22 Mm

Don Lemon 1:37:22 ... it wasn't funny or interesting. As a matter of fact, I didn't laugh until, um, Jeff Ross came up. The whole beginning of the thing, I was like, "I d- this isn't funny. Why? What, like, what's happening here?" And then Jeff Ross came on. I'm like, "Okay, good." And then Chelsea Handler. Chelsea's good. And so then, you know, and then I thought Sheryl Underwood stole the show. I thought she was-

Trevor Noah 1:37:39 No, she was phenomenal

Don Lemon 1:37:40 ... amazing.

Trevor Noah 1:37:41 Just phenomenal. Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:37:42 Um, but I just thought it was, um, you know, if you're gonna tell a joke, the very simple thing is that it has to be funny, and I didn't find some of those things funny. I found them insulting. That's a roast. But I didn't think that they were, I thought they were inappropriate, but do I think people should be canceled for it? No. I, I'm uncomfortable with it. I don't think that they should be doing it. I'm not a fan of it. But you do you.

Trevor Noah 1:38:03 So I'll disagree with you on one side. I don't think anyone has the right to say anything is or isn't funny As a comedian, I've always hated that. Whenever someone says, "That wasn't funny," I'm like, "No, no, no, I didn't find that funny."

Don Lemon 1:38:15 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:38:16 In the same way some people don't think Korean food is nice-

Don Lemon 1:38:19 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:38:19 ... and some people don't think that, uh, Indian food is good, and some people... That's your opinion, and that's fine, but you cannot say it definitively is how I feel about anything that is a, a matter of taste, right? There are many comedians who I don't find funny, but I would never say they are not funny.

Don Lemon 1:38:35 'Cause other people find them funny.

Trevor Noah 1:38:37 Yeah, because it's, i- it's, it's music. It's a joke. It's a painting.

Don Lemon 1:38:41 Subjective.

Trevor Noah 1:38:41 It's a, it's completely subjective.

Don Lemon 1:38:43 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:38:43 Sometimes I watch and I go like, "Huh, I don't think that was funny," but I don't go, "It wasn't funny." That's, that's the first thing for me.

Don Lemon 1:38:50 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:38:50 So I... And I know it seems like semantics, but I think people-

Don Lemon 1:38:53 No, no, I understand what you're saying

Trevor Noah 1:38:54 ... I always think people should remember-

Don Lemon 1:38:55 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:38:55 ... that not everything is for you and that's great, right?

Don Lemon 1:38:57 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:38:58 Um, that, that, that was, that's the only thing that I disagree with. The thing that got me, as I say, was, I was going, "Tsk." I, because I love roasts, I just felt robbed because I felt like the roast wasn't about the people-

Don Lemon 1:39:13 Who were there

Trevor Noah 1:39:13 ... who were there. It was just like, you know? And then it, it, it was like... Okay, like, I'll give you an example. Here's a joke that I thought was, could be construed as racist, but I think was also extremely funny. Maybe I would've changed, like, one word. It was the r- the joke when, um, Shane Gillis said Kevin Hart is so short they would have to lynch him from a bonsai tree.

Don Lemon 1:39:38 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:39:40 Joke-wise, I think that's phenomenal. I think it's funny because of, like, the, the, what it is doing in the joke-

Don Lemon 1:39:47 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:39:47 ... is a very funny thing. Now, lynching is not funny.

Don Lemon 1:39:50 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:39:50 Uh, you know, slavery is not funny. All these things are not funny, but that's not, like, the job. The job of comedy is to funny in what's not funny.

Don Lemon 1:39:58 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:39:59 I think that joke, it gets marred by every other joke of the night-

Don Lemon 1:40:04 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:40:04 ... that wasn't as good technically-

Don Lemon 1:40:05 Exactly

Trevor Noah 1:40:06 ... from every other person who's there, not Shane Gillis. It's just like... But I'm like, yeah, but, you know, Katt Williams I thought was amazing. I thought there were some jokes that everyone said that were amazing. So again, can I tell you what I loved most about the roast, funny enough?

Don Lemon 1:40:22 Yeah, of course.

Trevor Noah 1:40:22 If you ask me as Trevor, you go like, "What did you think about the roast?" The thing I love most about it is that it made people feel something.

Don Lemon 1:40:30 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:40:32 The audience had a reaction. The people there. Even Shane would say, "Damn, this section is not with us at all." People responded to it w- Maybe I am, maybe I'm starved of, of authenticity so much that that's all I focused on, but I actually liked that people were like-

Don Lemon 1:40:50 Yeah. I, look, I-

Trevor Noah 1:40:51 I like, I like that you as Don had a feeling about it.

Don Lemon 1:40:53 I feel the same way because, like I said, I wouldn't cancel anybody for it. I think it created a conversation, and I think it's good for people to be pissed off and not like things. And, and, and-

Trevor Noah 1:41:00 Yes. Yeah

Don Lemon 1:41:00 ... have, and you say, "I disagree with you." Okay, great. We disagree. That doesn't mean we don't like each other.

Trevor Noah 1:41:04 Oh, no, no, no. No, no, no.

Don Lemon 1:41:05 Do you know what I mean?

Trevor Noah 1:41:05 Yeah, yeah.

Don Lemon 1:41:06 So I, I, I, it is what it is.

Trevor Noah 1:41:08 Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:41:08 So I feel the same way. I'm glad it happened, and I'm, it gave me something to talk about, it gave me content. But by no means am I criticizing Kevin Hart or-

Trevor Noah 1:41:17 Oh, yeah. No, no, no

Don Lemon 1:41:18 ... the performance.

Trevor Noah 1:41:18 No, we're not even saying that. No.

Don Lemon 1:41:18 But you know what I'm saying? So.

Trevor Noah 1:41:19 No, no, completely. Completely.

Don Lemon 1:41:20 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:41:20 But that's why I say the great comedians for me, 'cause Katt did it really well. If you watch Katt's whole roast a- again, you can't tell if he believes it or doesn't believe it or... Like, he, he, for me, he executed a 10 out of 10 roast.

Don Lemon 1:41:35 He's brilliant.

Trevor Noah 1:41:37 Because, A, it felt like everything was written by him, and B, it felt like everything was true from his point of view. He just said it in a funny way.

Don Lemon 1:41:46 But he had a, a, a higher degree of difficulty 'cause they had been beefing for so mu- so long.

Trevor Noah 1:41:50 Mm-hmm.

Don Lemon 1:41:50 So, you know, he had that. I'm sure that was part of his thing.

Trevor Noah 1:41:53 But Sheryl Underwood did the same for me.

Don Lemon 1:41:55 She- Sheryl was so good. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:41:56 When she came out and said, she said, "I know your kind."

Don Lemon 1:41:58 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:41:59 "You white boys, I know your kind."

Don Lemon 1:42:00 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:42:00 "In public you're..." But it's like, "Oh, you wish you could hit that."

Don Lemon 1:42:03 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:42:03 "You wish you could..." That, that to me is also... You know, like, Eugene and I will talk about this all the time. Sometimes we, we... How can I put it? Let's go back to kids raising themselves. One of the things I'm sad about in today's world is that we no longer leave kids alone on a playground-

Don Lemon 1:42:29 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:42:29 ... to resolve their own disputes.

Don Lemon 1:42:30 Or let them go ride their bikes all day.

Trevor Noah 1:42:33 Just, just-

Don Lemon 1:42:33 And just, you don't do that.

Trevor Noah 1:42:35 Because what we then do is, as a society, if we are raised as kids who have parents in the playgrounds all the time, we become kids who call our parents when something is wrong all the time-

Don Lemon 1:42:45 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:42:45 ... and we don't resolve our disputes.

Don Lemon 1:42:46 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:42:48 When you're just on the playground, sometimes you're gonna fight, sometimes you'll punch the other person, sometimes they punch you, they headlock. Sometimes you just shout at each other. Sometimes you walk away crying, sometimes you don't. Sometimes you become best friends with that person, and I feel like that's necessary for a society to succeed.

Don Lemon 1:43:02 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:43:02 So for me, even in that world of, of the comedy, I think it's why Shane Gillis kept on saying, "I phoned her. I phoned her and I asked her about these jokes. I phoned..."

Don Lemon 1:43:11 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:43:11 'Cause the audience there was going, "Uh-uh, Shane."

Don Lemon 1:43:13 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:43:13 "Uh-uh, Shane."

Don Lemon 1:43:13 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:43:14 And he's like, "No, guys, I phoned Sheryl and I..." And he spoke about it afterwards.

Don Lemon 1:43:18 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:43:18 He even said on, on, um, his podcast that he has with his friend, he said, "Man," he's like... He said, "Damn, man, the jokes were racist."

Don Lemon 1:43:25 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:43:25 He said it.

Don Lemon 1:43:25 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:43:26 He's like, "Oh, man, there were some crazy racist jokes." He's like, "But I, I asked Sheryl about the ones about her husband and she said she, she loved them and..." But the, the people weren't invo- And now-

Don Lemon 1:43:35 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:43:36 ... it goes to-

Don Lemon 1:43:36 The circle

Trevor Noah 1:43:37 ... the parents in a way.

Don Lemon 1:43:38 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:43:39 And I'm like, ah, sometimes it doesn't need to.

Don Lemon 1:43:40 But as you were sitting, as you were talking about that, I think about the people who e- go on job interviews with their parents. Like, their parents will drive them to-

Trevor Noah 1:43:47 Yeah. Wait, what are you talking about?

Don Lemon 1:43:48 Kids, uh, uh, young people now go on... Their parents will drive them to a job interview.

Trevor Noah 1:43:52 Oh, my God.

Don Lemon 1:43:53 My husband, who works in real estate, 30-year-old people who are looking for their first apartment, or 20-

Trevor Noah 1:43:57 Come with their parents

Don Lemon 1:43:58 ... their parents come

Don Lemon 1:44:00 and, uh, yeah, a- and chaperone them and supervise them.

Trevor Noah 1:44:03 Yeah, we're gonna lose, we're gonna lose more than we think. Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:44:05 I got, I have another appointment.

Eugene Daniels 1:44:06 We, we're missing a, a-

Trevor Noah 1:44:07 You're going?

Eugene Daniels 1:44:07 ... appointment.

Don Lemon 1:44:08 I have, I have another appointment. I have to-

Trevor Noah 1:44:09 Well, could, well, you gotta come back then.

Don Lemon 1:44:10 No. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:44:11 No, no, no.

Don Lemon 1:44:12 I have to go.

Trevor Noah 1:44:12 I mean, like, in, you gotta come back.

Don Lemon 1:44:13 No, okay. Oh.

Trevor Noah 1:44:14 Just we'll do another one.

Don Lemon 1:44:15 You like me. You really like me.

Trevor Noah 1:44:16 Yeah. Ah, Don.

Eugene Daniels 1:44:17 You think we would lie?

Trevor Noah 1:44:18 This guy.

Eugene Daniels 1:44:19 You would never do that to me.

Trevor Noah 1:44:20 This guy. You think there's makeup here, Don?

Don Lemon 1:44:22 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:44:23 No, man, this was amazing.

Don Lemon 1:44:24 I loved this.

Trevor Noah 1:44:25 This was, like, genuinely, man.

Don Lemon 1:44:26 This is what a podcast should be.

Trevor Noah 1:44:28 Ah, music to my ears. But for real, man.

Don Lemon 1:44:30 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:44:30 Thank you. Thank you for joining us.

Eugene Daniels 1:44:31 This was a, this was a-

Don Lemon 1:44:31 Can I be the third host someday?

Eugene Daniels 1:44:32 This was a great, great-

Trevor Noah 1:44:33 There's no hosts here.

Eugene Daniels 1:44:34 Well, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:44:34 There's just people at a table, Don.

Eugene Daniels 1:44:36 You're always welcome. If, if you feel like, "Yo, do you guys wanna hang?"

Don Lemon 1:44:39 Yeah. Do you ever put, uh, four people, five people, six people?

Trevor Noah 1:44:42 No. Never tried that one.

Don Lemon 1:44:44 No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Trevor Noah 1:44:44 Yeah.

Don Lemon 1:44:45 No.

Trevor Noah 1:44:45 There's no science.

Don Lemon 1:44:45 You guys are not trisexuals.

Trevor Noah 1:44:46 No.

Don Lemon 1:44:46 Just not who I am.

Trevor Noah 1:44:50 [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:44:50 [laughs] I really enjoyed this. Thank you.

Trevor Noah 1:44:52 Don, this was amazing, man.

Don Lemon 1:44:52 Good to see you.

Trevor Noah 1:44:53 You're the greatest, man.

Don Lemon 1:44:54 Good to see you.

Trevor Noah 1:44:54 The greatest. Thank you. [laughs]

Don Lemon 1:44:56 [laughs] [upbeat music]

Trevor Noah 1:45:00 Thank you so much for watching the episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friend still. Let them suffer for a change. And don't forget to engage with us in the comments. Uh, if you wanna, uh, suggest a guest, maybe there's questions you want, maybe there's ideas that you have, you can chat to us. We will read through the comments and we'll get into it. Either way, I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you for hanging out with us on What Now? And remember, we do this for you, so we would like to hear from you. Till next time. Thank you. [upbeat music]