Dr. Jessica Knurick: Is American Food Actually Poison? Debunking the MAHA Movement & Nutrition Myths

Trevor Noah 0:00 [upbeat music] Wait, there's a, there's a list of ingredients, basic ingredients that, uh, people always interact with or always have in their homes that they might not be sure if they're good or bad, including myself. So I'm gonna do a quick fire of maybe a few, then you tell me yay or nay, and why the yay, right?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 0:20 Okay.

Trevor Noah 0:20 So salt. Is it a yay or nay?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 0:22 You need salt. Your body needs salt to survive. It's too much salt that's the problem, which is probably gonna be the, my answer to all of these.

Trevor Noah 0:29 So now there's a battle between Himalayan salt or just normal salt. Which one is good? Which one is bad?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 0:34 They're, they're both fine.

Trevor Noah 0:35 Marketing.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 0:36 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 0:36 Sugar, good or bad?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 0:38 Again, sugar, I mean, there's sugar in fruit, and fruit is a wonderful food, right? So, um, th- because you're also getting all of those nutrients. And so sugar is not necessarily bad. It's the overconsumption of sugar that's bad. And particularly, like, added sugar like a soda, right? 'Cause you're just c- drinking s- sugar with no nutrients-

Trevor Noah 0:55 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 0:56 ... at all. So, so that's kinda what you wanna stay away from or limit, um, versus just thinking sugar itself is bad.

Trevor Noah 1:02 White sugar or brown sugar, which one is the best?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:04 They're the same.

Trevor Noah 1:05 Oh, I always thought brown sugar was way healthier. I thought it was like brown rice. I would eat it all the time, and I'd be like, "Mom, look, I'm being healthy."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:11 No.

Trevor Noah 1:12 And then she'd throw carrots at my head.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:13 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:16 [upbeat music] This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. [upbeat music] Dr. Jessica... Wait, you know what's funny? We were all

Trevor Noah 1:35 debating how to say the name. I thought it was Knurick, and then someone else was like Nurick.

Eugene 1:41 Nurick. Nurick.

Trevor Noah 1:43 Nurick.

Eugene 1:43 Nurick. Nurick.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:43 It's more-

Trevor Noah 1:43 Which one is it?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:44 It's closer to the second one.

Trevor Noah 1:45 It's-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:45 It's Nu- Nurick.

Eugene 1:46 Nurick.

Trevor Noah 1:46 It is Nurick.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:47 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:47 Huh.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:47 The K is silent like knife.

Trevor Noah 1:50 I don't like silent letters.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:51 Yeah. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:51 I'm not gonna lie. I'm just gonna put it out there.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:53 Yeah, it's-

Trevor Noah 1:54 I'm not, I'm... Your name can be your name. I just don't think this is cool for people because it's like your name is like a trap.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 2:01 I, it's a made-up name.

Trevor Noah 2:02 Imagine if I was like, "I'm Trevor Noah," and then they're like, "N-O- no, K-N-O-A-H."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 2:07 I mean, the H-

Trevor Noah 2:08 T

Dr. Jessica Knurick 2:08 ... is kinda silent, isn't it?

Trevor Noah 2:09 Yeah. The Noah?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 2:10 Noah.

Trevor Noah 2:11 You caught me. [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 2:13 [laughs] You have a silent letter too.

Trevor Noah 2:16 I do. I do.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 2:17 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 2:17 Eugene Coza. No, you-

Eugene 2:19 No

Trevor Noah 2:19 ... you know. You-

Eugene 2:19 There's nothing silent about Khazi

Trevor Noah 2:20 ... 'cause you have to say the H properly.

Eugene 2:21 K- knife.

Trevor Noah 2:22 Knife?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 2:24 Like knife?

Eugene 2:25 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 2:25 Knife.

Eugene 2:25 I, no, no, I'm, I, I'm just thinking about I've never really thought that the K in knife was k- was silent.

Trevor Noah 2:30 It is silent.

Eugene 2:31 Knife.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 2:32 So like knack.

Eugene 2:32 I like knife.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 2:33 Gnat.

Eugene 2:34 But I li-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 2:34 There's a lot of silent Ks.

Trevor Noah 2:35 Yeah.

Eugene 2:35 I like the knife.

Trevor Noah 2:36 Yeah.

Eugene 2:36 What other silent letters are there?

Trevor Noah 2:36 K, Ks are lazy letters in words.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 2:38 Yeah, they're lazy. [laughs] That's true.

Trevor Noah 2:39 They really are. They don't pull their weight at all.

Eugene 2:41 Knowledge. Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 2:42 Well, at the start of a word at least.

Trevor Noah 2:43 Yes. Whenever other letters are having a convention, then they're like, "Ah, here comes K. Oh, goodness."

Eugene 2:48 [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 2:49 Shh.

Trevor Noah 2:50 Shh, AK.

Eugene 2:52 It's, it's-

Trevor Noah 2:52 What, are you, you gonna do your job today?

Eugene 2:53 It's hey to you.

Trevor Noah 2:54 [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 2:56 [laughs]

Eugene 2:56 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 2:56 Um, this is not why we brought you on.

Eugene 2:59 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 2:59 We're not gonna just talk about letters and...

Dr. Jessica Knurick 3:01 I'm not a linguist, I have to tell you.

Trevor Noah 3:04 But you are an expert-

Eugene 3:05 Mm

Trevor Noah 3:05 ... which I do appreciate. Um, actually, w- w- like, I know w- when you read it out, it's, it's, you know, it's like you've got a PhD in nu- um, nutritionist. But how would you describe what you're an expert in? Like, what do you do? What are your qualifications?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 3:17 I have a PhD in Nutrition Science, but, um, my research focus was really in chronic disease prevention, so looking at, like, all of the different areas that could potentially prevent chronic disease-

Trevor Noah 3:27 Right

Dr. Jessica Knurick 3:28 ... um, and, and m- mainly lifestyle related chronic disease, like-

Trevor Noah 3:30 Hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 3:31 ... like type 2 diabetes or cardiovascular disease, like cardiometabolic disease.

Trevor Noah 3:34 Okay. So

Trevor Noah 3:35 help us break down the difference between lifestyle chronic diseases versus what is, like, a non-lifestyle chronic disease.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 3:41 Yeah, I mean, cr- uh, lifestyle related are just things that we know, we have pretty good evidence that, like, lifestyle related habits, um, or, or behaviors are actually impacting your disease risk.

Trevor Noah 3:51 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 3:51 So there are some, like, chronic diseases that, that we don't necessarily know that. We don't know, like, how much behavior is, or, or, or, like, lifestyle is actually impacting it. Um-

Trevor Noah 4:00 Like, is there an ex... Give me an example just so I can wrap my head around it. I'm trying to... 'Cause y- you said type 2 diabetes would be more lifestyle.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 4:06 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 4:06 Okay. And then type 1, I guess no.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 4:09 Type 1, no. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 4:10 Okay. So that's just, it might just be you, hereditary.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 4:13 Yeah, like an autoimmune type, type of response.

Trevor Noah 4:16 Ah, okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 4:17 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 4:17 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 4:17 Yeah. M- a lot of hereditary factors.

Trevor Noah 4:20 Right.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 4:20 Yeah, a lot of genetics.

Trevor Noah 4:22 Yeah. And so you, you're the s-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 4:23 Potentially other, like, e- environmental factors. We just don't know as well.

Trevor Noah 4:27 So some we know for certain, or there's a lot of research to suggest it?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 4:31 Yeah. And it's also that, like, you could potentially prevent the chronic disease-

Trevor Noah 4:35 Got it

Dr. Jessica Knurick 4:36 ... with lifestyle change.

Trevor Noah 4:37 Got it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 4:37 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 4:38 I love the world that you're in. Um, you know, when we, we were chatting to the team. I, I feel like you are one of the bright spots of social media.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 4:47 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 4:48 You know? And Eugene and I were chatting about this the other day, and we were saying, like, it was... I'm, I'm not gonna take credit for it, 'cause you said it.

Eugene 4:53 Yo. 'Cause Jessica-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 4:54 [laughs]

Eugene 4:55 ... things that happen in our friendships with taking credit.

Trevor Noah 4:58 [laughs] I'm not gonna-

Eugene 4:59 These disclaimers need to happen more often.

Trevor Noah 5:00 I'm not gonna take credit because-

Eugene 5:01 So buckle up

Trevor Noah 5:02 ... because you said it.

Eugene 5:03 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 5:03 But Eugene said something very valuable. He said, "You know, w- we can always jump to try and, like, vilify social media, and we can look at the bad, and we can..." You know what I mean?

Eugene 5:12 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 5:12 But we also forget that there's a good side of what's happening on social media. There's also a good side of what happens on TV, et cetera. And I was like, "Man, Eugene, I f- I feel you, man. I feel you."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 5:22 Yeah. Class half fu- full.

Trevor Noah 5:23 And, yeah. Yeah. And I, I feel like you're one of those bright spots, an expert on social media breaking down the most complicated-

Eugene 5:32 Yeah

Trevor Noah 5:32 ... topics for everyone to fully understand.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 5:36 Thank you. I appreciate that.

Trevor Noah 5:37 No, we thank you. No, genuinely.

Eugene 5:39 Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 5:39 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 5:39 We do. I love how you got into it as well. You know what I mean? It's like one minute you're, you're the scientist who's, like, really working on, like, the, uh... What do they call it again? The, um, uh, you, you, you write the research papers and the-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 5:53 Like a grant?

Eugene 5:53 The sketch pad?

Trevor Noah 5:54 No. You're not my friend.

Eugene 5:58 [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 5:58 Oh, my God.

Trevor Noah 5:58 Friends would help No, the, oh, the academia more

Dr. Jessica Knurick 6:02 ... piece of-

Trevor Noah 6:02 Yes, the acad- You know what I mean?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 6:03 Mm.

Trevor Noah 6:03 And then now, now it feels like you're, you're, you've bridged the gap between the information and the people who need the information. Maybe we start on that. Like, why, what made you think, "You know what? I need to get involved in getting this information directly to people and not just keeping it in the world of expertise"?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 6:18 Yeah, I've kind of, um, I've kind of talked about this before, that, um, for a very long time it was ver- really frowned upon for academics to go on social media.

Trevor Noah 6:25 Right. Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 6:25 So it was ki- uh, it was looked down upon. I, I first went to social media actually back in 2016. My little brother was like, "You should get on this new app." It was like, um, Twitter's, like, version of a video app. And so I, I was teaching nutrition courses at, at a university at the time, and I was like, "You know, I could teach on, on this app. I'll just like, whatever my lesson is that day, I'll go teach it on the app." So that's what I did, and I, like, built up this little following within a few months, and, um, I got a lot of pushback from colleagues and from former colleagues.

Trevor Noah 6:53 Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 6:54 And, you know, I was a brand new tenure track professor, and I didn't wanna, like, put my career in jeopardy.

Trevor Noah 6:58 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 6:59 And so when that happened and, you know, people were making fun of me, like, "How's your vlog doing?"

Trevor Noah 7:03 Oh, damn.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 7:04 Um, and, and that was a really common occurrence. It was just not a space that, like, we were supposed to be in. And so I got off, and I was off for years and years after that. And I, I've talked to lots of other, like, academics and even, like, medical doctors, and they all feel very similarly. Like, it just, it was really frowned upon for us to go to social media, and unfortunately, that's where people go, for better or worse, for their information. And so we lost a lot of ground for many years-

Trevor Noah 7:28 Hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 7:28 ... not going to spaces where people went for information. Um, and so that's what really initially, well, well, I guess the second time, brought me to social media, was I was pregnant with my son. No, I was pregnant with my son in 2019 and then my daughter in 2022, and between those times, for whatever reason, I think it was after COVID, it was also, like, Twit- uh, TikTok had come out.

Trevor Noah 7:48 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 7:48 And I just started seeing way more misinformation than I had seen the first time around, and, like, getting targeted it, with it in my algorithm. Um, and so that's, I was like, "Well, that's not correct." And, like, I felt kind of a obligation to protect that particular demographic 'cause, like, we're quite vulnerable at that life stage when we have young kids-

Trevor Noah 8:07 Hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 8:07 ... um, or we're pregnant. And so I just went on and started correcting kind of, like, nutrition misinformation in the pregnancy space. Um, and then, you know, my, my content has shifted much more so, um, in the last year or so after last summer when I saw a lot of, you know, this, like, movement happening, uh, in public health and nutrition. It just happened to be, like, my exact area of focus the last 15 years. And so I was able to really see the manipulation that was happening with the narrative.

Trevor Noah 8:32 Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 8:32 And, um, I decided to just start correcting some of the misinformation, and so that's kind of, like, what brought me to, to here, where I am now, sitting with you, Trevor. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 8:42 Do you guys need a moment? [laughs] I've got places to be today.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 8:46 Here we are. Serendipitous. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 8:48 [laughs] I, I, we always have this debate about social media, and we're thinking there's a pushback in trying to find... Not even a pushback, maybe a U-turn in how we experience social media now. People are trying to look for the bad, but seems like you found the good. What is, what is the good that is in social media right now that people can go look for?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 9:06 Well, I think that there's a lot of good content out there.

Trevor Noah 9:08 Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 9:09 You just have to, like, sort through it and sift through it, right?

Trevor Noah 9:11 Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 9:11 So, like, sifting through the bad. But I mean, it, social media gives you the opportunity to learn from people you never really would've been able to learn from before, right?

Trevor Noah 9:18 Yeah, access.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 9:19 Like, if I have, like, a question about some sort of, like, beauty product, there's, like, so many dermatologists out there or cosmetic chemists just, like, creating content about it. And I'm like, "This is wonderful." So I think that's a great part about it. If you can find people giving credible information, I think it can be a great source of information.

Trevor Noah 9:34 Hmm. How do you figure out who the credible person is, though? Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 9:38 You know-

Trevor Noah 9:38 That, that's, like, the biggest obstacle for me, is, you know, when I, when, when my friend sent me your videos at first, I was like, "This is amazing." Yeah. And then the, the second thing I always have to tell myself is I go, like, "Is it amazing because I want to believe it?" Mm-hmm. Because I'm not an expert. Mm-hmm. So how do I know this is the right thing? Hmm. And that becomes, like, the ultimate paradigm, uh, paradox, rather, online, is you get it from an expert, so you think it's real, and then you go, "Wait, how do I know this person is an expert?" 'Cause everyone's a doctor, you know? The Dr. Oz doctor. Yeah. And then if Dr. Oz says it-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 10:07 Everyone's a doctor. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 10:08 Yeah, no, do you know what I mean?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 10:09 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 10:09 Like, people just doctor. Everyone doctor, doctor, doctor. Hmm. Like, how did you... W- Was there a moment when people were like, "Who are you to say this?" I, I'm sure people even say that to you now in some way. I'm sure there's some people who go like, "You're the scam. You're the fake person."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 10:22 Yeah, people are always gonna do that, right? But-

Trevor Noah 10:24 Did you just say that?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 10:25 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 10:26 What do you mean? Is, is this how you feel? No, I'm... That's not how I feel. I said the... I'm sure- There's so much conviction in your eyes. Yeah, because I channeled the comments section. Okay, maybe let me ask Jessica the question.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 10:35 I just had that look on my face.

Trevor Noah 10:36 Okay, okay, you ask the question. Dr. Jessica, do you find that sometimes on social media people look at you and think p- perhaps maybe you're the scam?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 10:45 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 10:45 That was actually-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 10:46 Was that better?

Trevor Noah 10:46 That was actually better.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 10:47 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 10:47 That was better.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 10:48 I, I think that yes. I think that if, um, you know, if, if I'm saying something that, like, somebody doesn't like, it's very easy to write somebody off, just, just saying, like, "You're a scam," or whatever it is. Um, I think there's a couple of things you can look for. This is not foolproof, but, like, some things to, like, identify if somebody is giving accurate information. Um, they, they tend to not be super sensational.

Trevor Noah 11:06 Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 11:07 So, which plays really well into the algorithm, right? So a lot of times-

Trevor Noah 11:10 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 11:10 ... in my space, if it's, like, nutrition misinformation, they'll scare you at the front of the video, right? They'll scare you about, like, if you're poisoning your children or if you're consuming toxins.

Trevor Noah 11:21 Oh.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 11:21 Um, experts don't generally talk like that. Like, ge- genuine people who are trying to educate are not gonna scare you. They're gonna explain the nuance. So if there's some sort of inflammatory claim at the front, that's kind of a red flag. And then particularly then if they walk you through kind of why, why it's, why that's so toxic or whatever it is, and then try to sell you something at the very end. Generally, those are some, like, good red flags. I'm not saying that's al- always the case.

Trevor Noah 11:44 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 11:44 Um, but that's just something to, like, keep in mind. Maybe this is not, maybe this information, you know, has an ulterior motive to try to get me to purchase their whatever it is at the end. Um, so I think kind of being aware of that, and then, um, again, really sensationalized information is generally not how, like, experts talk.

Trevor Noah 12:01 That, that feels like the crux-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 12:02 Hmm

Trevor Noah 12:02 ... of the RFK Me- uh, MAHA movement, Make America Healthy Again.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 12:07 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 12:07 Which, by the way, is a great starting point. Mm-hmm. Who doesn't want America to be healthy?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 12:11 No one.

Trevor Noah 12:11 Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Well...

Dr. Jessica Knurick 12:13 Well, some people, but-

Trevor Noah 12:14 Yeah. [laughs] Well, eh. You know what I mean? [laughs] But it's like, yeah, who doesn't want America to be healthy? Yeah. And then they go like, "Hey, you know, the, the foods that we're giving our kids and the-" One of the things I noticed about, you know, somebody like RFK and, and the people around him is they're often really good at identifying real problems.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 12:32 Yeah.

Eugene 12:32 Mm.

Trevor Noah 12:33 They're not lying about the problems. And so they rope you in by saying, "Hey, kids are unhealthy, and kids are not getting good food in schools. And, you know, the, the medi- the pharmaceutical industry might not have your best..." And everyone's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." And then to your point, it flips, and then they sell you something.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 12:51 Yeah, I mean, it's great because, you know, the, the... If you identify a correct problem that, like, we all care about, and then you see somebody kind of countering some of the, uh, like, misinformation that's being spread, it's very easy for those people to be like, "Why don't you want America to be healthy?" People ask me that sometimes.

Trevor Noah 13:06 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 13:06 And it's like, "Wait, no, I want America [laughs] to be healthy. That's why I'm talking about this." Um, but I think it's, like, a brilliant kind of, like, propaganda tool to do.

Trevor Noah 13:13 It's, it's, it's the snake oil salesman handbook. That's what it is. You come in, you identify the problem, and then you go, "I immediately can cure this thing with my snake oil."

Eugene 13:22 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 13:23 Yeah.

Eugene 13:23 But I also feel like with nutrition, it gets very tricky sometimes. You know, growing up, there were those ads that would be like, "Open your cupboard right now, your food pantry. Open your fridge right now."

Trevor Noah 13:32 Yeah, yeah.

Eugene 13:33 "Everything in there that you see is wrong." Then they'll be like, "Fresh veg- fruits and vegetables, you must eat this and eat that." But now later on in life, you get to hear, "So much sugar in fruit, so much sugar in this, so much sugar in that."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 13:44 Yeah, actually-

Eugene 13:44 "Don't eat, don't drink fruit juice. It's not good for you." It feels like the messages have been confused.

Trevor Noah 13:49 What... Yeah, what, wait, what... Let's-

Eugene 13:50 Yeah

Trevor Noah 13:50 ... let's...

Trevor Noah 13:51 Actually, what is the truth around that?

Eugene 13:52 Mm.

Trevor Noah 13:53 Fruit good, fruit bad?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 13:55 Fruit good.

Trevor Noah 13:56 Oh, okay.

Eugene 13:56 Fruit juice?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 13:57 Yeah. [laughs] Well, fruit juice is different than fruit, 'cause fruit itself has a lot of fiber in it. Um, fruit juice kind of strips out the fiber.

Eugene 14:05 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 14:05 So fruit juice essentially has a lot of sugar and not a lot of the fiber that f- that real fruit has. And so there c- those are differences in terms of, like, their metabolic impact on you.

Eugene 14:15 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 14:15 So we don't have a problem eating too much fruit in this country. Like, there's, we actually, m- most of us, almost 90% of us don't meet fruit intake guidelines. So the benefits of eating fruit, which is, like, all of the micronutrients and polyphenols and antioxidants and all of that, and the fiber, um, far outweigh any problems that we would see with, like, the, the sugar, 'cause the sugar's packaged within the fruit. So it's different than just k- like drinking a soda, for example, which doesn't have any of that. It's just the sugar.

Trevor Noah 14:44 I, I can eat half a watermelon-

Eugene 14:48 Yeah

Trevor Noah 14:48 ... in one sitting.

Eugene 14:49 Same.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 14:50 That's a lot. [laughs]

Eugene 14:51 Same.

Trevor Noah 14:51 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 14:52 Does that give you GI issues?

Eugene 14:54 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 14:55 [laughs]

Eugene 14:56 Do you feel itchy somewhere? 'Cause that's GI.

Trevor Noah 14:58 I don't think, I don't think that's GI.

Eugene 15:00 Oh.

Trevor Noah 15:00 I'm glad we've got an expert here.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 15:02 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 15:02 I don't think GI has-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 15:03 GI is, like, gastrointestinal.

Trevor Noah 15:06 [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 15:07 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 15:07 [laughs]

Eugene 15:07 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 15:08 No, it doesn't.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 15:09 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 15:09 I've never had any problems, actually.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 15:10 Okay.

Trevor Noah 15:11 Um, l- like, how much... How, how do you know if you, if you're having too much fruits?

Eugene 15:16 Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 15:18 I mean, I, I don't know that there's, like, a specific s- s- symptom or sign-

Trevor Noah 15:23 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 15:23 ... to know if you're having too much fruit. And a- again, like, too much is gonna be very individual, right?

Trevor Noah 15:27 Okay, okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 15:27 So we, when we make recommendations, like two to three servings of fruit a day, like, those recommendations are just for the general population.

Trevor Noah 15:34 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 15:34 But somebody, someone else might be able to tolerate much more than that-

Trevor Noah 15:37 Ah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 15:37 ... versus somebody else.

Trevor Noah 15:38 I'm someone else.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 15:38 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 15:38 Okay, so I'm exceptional.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 15:39 You might have an-

Eugene 15:40 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 15:40 ... exceptional fruit tolerance.

Trevor Noah 15:41 I have an exceptional f- exceptional fruit tolerance.

Eugene 15:43 But here's my-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 15:44 Specifically watermelon.

Trevor Noah 15:45 Yes, watermelon.

Eugene 15:46 Oh, I love watermelon.

Trevor Noah 15:47 I mean, how can you not love watermelon?

Eugene 15:48 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 15:48 You know the greatest scam ever committed?

Eugene 15:50 Is eating it shirtless.

Trevor Noah 15:52 No.

Eugene 15:53 Oh.

Trevor Noah 15:53 But I'm, I'm into it.

Eugene 15:54 You must try it.

Trevor Noah 15:55 I've never thought of that.

Eugene 15:56 Spot's gone.

Trevor Noah 15:57 Wow.

Eugene 15:57 Just you, a sticky chest.

Trevor Noah 15:59 Damn.

Eugene 15:59 Then shower straight after.

Trevor Noah 16:00 No, what I was gonna say is, like-

Eugene 16:01 Then finish off the rest of the watermelon that's left

Trevor Noah 16:02 ... what I was gonna say was, like, the craziest thing, the worst thing that ever happened was, like, when I came to America, and then I discovered, like, here, watermelon had, like, racist connotations. Then I was like-

Eugene 16:10 Oh.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 16:11 Oh, yeah

Trevor Noah 16:11 ... "What?" And they were like, "Oh, Black people love watermelon." And I was like, "Yeah." And they're like, "You love it." And I was like, "Yeah." [laughs]

Eugene 16:18 What is that?

Trevor Noah 16:18 And they were like, "No, but you love it."

Eugene 16:19 Yes, yes, yes.

Trevor Noah 16:20 I was like, "Yeah."

Eugene 16:21 Where does that come from?

Trevor Noah 16:22 Ah, man, it's all, like-

Eugene 16:23 Jessica, do you know? Are you a nutritionist?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 16:25 I don't know. I, I... [laughs] I don't.

Trevor Noah 16:26 So if I, if I... No, if I remember-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 16:27 I wanna talk about-

Trevor Noah 16:27 ... if I remember correctly, there was like a whole-

Eugene 16:30 Yeah

Trevor Noah 16:30 ... there was a whole thing around it. Ryan, you'll, you'll probably know this, but, like, there was, like, a whole, um... Originally, it, it didn't have any racist connotations or anything.

Eugene 16:39 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 16:39 But as Black people in America were choosing their foods and were making them and were enjoying them-

Eugene 16:44 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 16:44 ... then racist groups were like, "We've got to find ways to poke fun at them." And, and so they became the stereotype-

Eugene 16:50 So chicken was one of them

Trevor Noah 16:50 ... fried chicken was one of them.

Eugene 16:51 Uh-huh.

Trevor Noah 16:52 But here's the thing. Yeah, Black people like fried chicken, but you know who else likes fried chicken?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 16:55 White people.

Trevor Noah 16:56 Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. You can't sustain an entire industry just with the Black people in America.

Eugene 17:01 I trusted you more when you said w- White people as well.

Trevor Noah 17:04 [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 17:04 [laughs]

Eugene 17:04 I was like, like, "She missed the criteria."

Trevor Noah 17:06 [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 17:07 [laughs]

Eugene 17:07 And she's a nutritionist.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 17:08 My family loves, loves fried chicken.

Trevor Noah 17:09 Yeah. Thank you. You see? We have just... There we, there we go.

Eugene 17:12 Oh, so there was this... Okay, I see, I see what you mean.

Trevor Noah 17:15 Yeah, and then they just made it a thing.

Eugene 17:16 Ah.

Trevor Noah 17:17 But there was also something around, like, the farming of it. Like, it, if I remember correctly, I, I, I mean, we'll, we'll fact-check this, but-

Eugene 17:23 Yeah

Trevor Noah 17:23 ... I think there was a story around, like, Black farmers post-slavery started growing a lot of watermelon themselves.

Eugene 17:30 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 17:30 And it was one of the crops that were easiest to grow. And so they w- once, they were like, 'cause they had farming experience-

Eugene 17:36 Yes, yes

Trevor Noah 17:36 ... unfortunately. And then they were like, "We're gonna grow watermelon," and it became, like, a crop that they were using and they were making a lot of money from.

Eugene 17:43 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 17:43 And then there were just racist people who were like, "We gotta shut down this watermelon vibe." And so to make it distasteful to others, funny enough, like, sort of like a m-

Eugene 17:51 Wow

Trevor Noah 17:51 ... it was another, you know, scammy thing before social media. They went-

Eugene 17:55 Yeah

Trevor Noah 17:55 ... "Well, you know what watermelon means. You know where it comes from." And then that's where the stereotype sort of, like, gains its footing.

Eugene 18:02 I always feel like in any industry, there's always corporations getting involved and trying to take people off eating fruit and vegetables that are fresh, and going for the packaged foods. Do you find that in urban areas and in cities and in first world countries mostly, fresh fruit and vegetable are very expensive and unattainable for most people?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 18:19 Yeah, they're certainly more expensive relative to, uh, when we're looking at, like, the caloric density, so how many calories are-

Trevor Noah 18:25 Yes

Dr. Jessica Knurick 18:25 ... actually in the food. They're certainly more expensive than, than these packaged foods. A lot of that is because of the policies that we've enacted in this country. Um, and- Particularly kind of like zoning laws that have created these, what we term food deserts in a lot of the urban areas, um, where they literally don't have access, like easy access-

Trevor Noah 18:42 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 18:42 ... to a grocery store with fresh fruits and vegetables. So, so they're going to dollar stores and they're going to gas stations for a lot of their groceries. Um, and so you know what we might take for granted, going to a grocery store, like I live in the suburbs, there's like five grocery stores within a, a close proximity.

Trevor Noah 18:57 Yeah.

Eugene 18:57 Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 18:58 A lot of people don't have that, and so they have to take like, you know, multiple buses to get to a grocery store.

Trevor Noah 19:03 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 19:03 And then they don't h- have transportation, so they're carrying all of that home, and it just, the, the barriers of access are much higher. So it's not even just cost, it's also just accessibility-

Eugene 19:11 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 19:11 ... of fresh fruits and vegetables. Um, and so what that, what happens then is people are heavily reliant on prepackaged foods, uh, much more so, so they're e- they're more accessible, they have longer shelf lives.

Eugene 19:23 Yes.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 19:23 The same fruits and vegetables go bad after a few days, and if you don't, you know, prepare them, um, then you have to go back and do that whole thing again to try to get a- access to them. Um, so yeah, that, that is a big problem in our country. I mean, millions of Americans live in these food deserts, um, that, that don't have r- easy access to fresh fruits and vegetables.

Eugene 19:39 Wow.

Trevor Noah 19:39 How

Trevor Noah 19:40 do, how do we think of ultra-processed foods? Because depending on where you look, they'll tell you they give you cancer.

Eugene 19:46 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 19:47 Uh, they causing obesity, you shouldn't eat any of them. Some people are like, "Oh, it's in moderation." Some people are like-

Eugene 19:52 Hmm

Trevor Noah 19:52 ... "No, they're, they're completely fine." W- w- what's your view on ultra-processed foods? And I know that's a broad term, but maybe-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 19:58 Yeah, we should define it.

Trevor Noah 19:59 Yeah, let's, let's define it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 20:00 So there's not a, there's not a great definition for it, which is why HHS right now has k- kind of an RFI out to fi- like a request for information to-

Trevor Noah 20:07 Okay

Dr. Jessica Knurick 20:07 ... figure out like what is a good definition for ultra-processed foods, 'cause they do a lot of talking about ultra-processed foods, but we don't have a great definition. In the nutrition science research, we use something called the NOVA classification.

Trevor Noah 20:17 NOVA classification.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 20:18 Yeah. So it's, uh, it's out of Brazil actually. And so they did like a first effort years ago to define what ultra-processed means, and they defined it as, um, foods that include an ingredient or a processing method that you don't have access to.

Trevor Noah 20:33 Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 20:33 So you can't replicate it in your kitchen. So, uh, my, the best way I can explain it is with corn. So unprocessed would be corn you pick from the garden.

Trevor Noah 20:41 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 20:42 Um, minimally processed would be like frozen corn.

Trevor Noah 20:44 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 20:44 Um, so they just shuck the corn and put it in the freezer.

Trevor Noah 20:47 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 20:47 And then, um, processed would be canned corn.

Trevor Noah 20:50 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 20:51 That they add a little sodium. So just adding sodium is considered processed, like-

Trevor Noah 20:54 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 20:54 ... in this classification. Um, and then ultra-processed would be a Dorito chip. So you can't-

Trevor Noah 20:59 Wow

Dr. Jessica Knurick 20:59 ... replicate a Dorito chip in your-

Eugene 21:01 You're good

Dr. Jessica Knurick 21:01 ... kitchen. But there is corn.

Trevor Noah 21:02 She's,

Trevor Noah 21:03 she's amazing.

Eugene 21:03 You are-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 21:03 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 21:03 You see now?

Eugene 21:04 ... good.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 21:05 So, but if we use that definition-

Eugene 21:07 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 21:07 ... right? Because the, well, again, the definition is an ingredient or processing method you don't have access to.

Eugene 21:12 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 21:12 So that really means any of these additives that, you know, uh, that, that we use to like preserve food-

Trevor Noah 21:18 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 21:18 ... or change the color of food-

Eugene 21:20 Hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 21:20 ... or those types of things. Um, there is so much variability in the nutrient density of those foods. So you can have something like a Dorito chip that doesn't have very much nutrient density, right? It's not, it's not great for you. But then you can also have something like a protein powder would be considered ultra-processed, but you're getting a lot of protein in that protein powder.

Eugene 21:37 Ah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 21:38 Right? So, so the problem-

Trevor Noah 21:38 So you can't just go good or bad.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 21:40 Exactly. And, and, e- uh, the people in charge right now are wanting to go good or bad and, and kind of like demonizing the previous administration for not like taking a hard stance on ultra-processed foods.

Eugene 21:50 Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 21:50 But this is the reason. When you look at the science, there is, there's like nutrient dense ultra-processed foods, and th- they're more accessible. And so if someone can devise a healthful diet that includes a lot of ultra-processed foods, but that it can still be a health promoting diet for those people who don't have access to fresh fruits and vegetables, for example, then we can't demonize those foods, right? The, the, we have to identify that, oh, those can actually be health promoting. Um, and so there's, there, we still need to do a lot more research in this area, and they, they, you know, um, they've been doing some of that research at the NIH looking at ultra-processed foods. Um, so it's very, it's a very nuanced kind of like ecosystem there. Um, but, but at the end of the day, low nutrient ultra-processed foods, these prepackaged foods, um, there's pretty good evidence that they're, that they're negatively impacting our health.

Trevor Noah 22:37 How do, how do we figure this out? I- i- is there like a, a simple trick that we can use when we're out there buying food? You know, uh, so let's use Doritos as an example.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 22:47 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 22:47 Someone grabs a bag of Doritos.

Eugene 22:49 I did.

Trevor Noah 22:49 Uh, I wasn't gonna say who. Someone grabs a bag of Doritos, right? They haven't eaten that morning.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 22:54 Yeah.

Eugene 22:54 I didn't.

Trevor Noah 22:55 I wasn't gonna name any names. And then they start nibbling away, and you can see that this person is hungry, and there's-

Eugene 23:00 I am

Trevor Noah 23:00 ... yeah, and they're just like, "You know, I just need like a few little nibbles of a thing, nibbles of a thing," and then they eat it. And then afterwards, they

Trevor Noah 23:07 still don't really feel like they've eaten anything.

Eugene 23:09 I don't.

Trevor Noah 23:10 And their stomach isn't full.

Eugene 23:12 At all.

Trevor Noah 23:13 And they're going, "I still need to eat something."

Eugene 23:16 After the podcast, yeah.

Trevor Noah 23:17 And because I feel like I need to eat something, it means that that wasn't like necessarily bad for me or didn't... Do, do, do you get what I'm saying?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 23:24 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 23:24 How do, like what, what is that gap that we, that we're... 'Cause we, we all experience it. Someone goes like, "Oh, I still have space."

Eugene 23:30 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 23:31 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 23:31 So help me understand that, 'cause I, I, on a, on a, you know, if I just read it, uh, ultra dense calories, I'm like, "Yeah, I understand this." I don't really understand it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 23:40 Okay. So-

Trevor Noah 23:40 Hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 23:40 ... with Dorito chips, let's take Doritos.

Trevor Noah 23:42 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 23:42 I mean, I don't mean to throw Doritos under the bus, but-

Trevor Noah 23:44 No, no, no. Let's say all chips.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 23:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 23:45 All the chips.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 23:46 Chips.

Trevor Noah 23:46 Yes.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 23:46 Let's, let's look at chips.

Trevor Noah 23:47 Yes.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 23:48 So chips tend to be high in salt and fat.

Trevor Noah 23:51 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 23:52 And so any combination of salt, sugar, and fat are g- is gonna be what we term hyper-satiating, right? So it's gonna be like you-

Eugene 23:59 Unholy trinity

Dr. Jessica Knurick 23:59 ... you can just keep eating it, right?

Eugene 24:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 24:01 And food corporations, by the way, are not trying to hide this. You remember those commercials that were like, "You bet you can't eat just one"?

Trevor Noah 24:06 Yeah, yeah, once you pop-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 24:07 And like once you pop-

Trevor Noah 24:07 ... you can't stop

Dr. Jessica Knurick 24:08 ... you can't stop.

Trevor Noah 24:08 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 24:09 Um, so like they, they're designing these foods, you know, with salt, sugar, and fat to be hyper-palatable, hyper-satiating. So what the problem is is that those chips don't have any protein and they don't have any fiber, and protein and fiber are the things that are gonna give you what that feeling that you're talking about-

Trevor Noah 24:23 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 24:23 ... which is like feeling a bit full.

Eugene 24:25 Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 24:25 Right? So when, when you're Eating something like that, you wanna be pairing it with something that has protein and fiber as well.

Trevor Noah 24:32 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 24:32 So you eat a chicken sandwich.

Trevor Noah 24:34 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 24:34 And you have, like, some chips, right? Or maybe you eat a bean salad-

Trevor Noah 24:38 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 24:38 ... and then you have some chips. Like, so implementing fiber and protein are, are really where you wanna focus.

Trevor Noah 24:43 Wait, wait. So wait, the, but there's something that's-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 24:44 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 24:44 ... confusing here. So y- y- you say the chips, um, it's the salt, the fat. You, you eating it, uh, you know what I mean? It's making you feel like you're still hungry the whole time. You're eating the thing.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 24:53 Yes.

Trevor Noah 24:53 You're eating the thing, you're eating the thing.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 24:54 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 24:54 It makes you feel like you're hungry, it makes you feel like you're hungry. And then you said pair it with something else is like a better, is, is a better way to have it. What about those, like, brands that say, "We've got fiber in the chips, and we've got..." Do, do you know what I mean? Like, there's some chips-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 25:10 Yeah

Trevor Noah 25:10 ... that go-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 25:10 Mm

Trevor Noah 25:11 ... "No, this is a protein chip." But it still has the same calories on the bag and it's the... Are those actually better chips than the other chips? And is the better enough to be better for, for us?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 25:21 Mm.

Trevor Noah 25:21 Or is it just little bit better? How much better?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 25:25 27% better. No, I'm just kidding. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 25:27 Oh, damn. I was like, "Wow."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 25:29 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 25:29 I was like, you-

Eugene 25:29 Now we're kidding, Jessica. [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 25:31 I just made that up.

Trevor Noah 25:31 I thought you were the expert. [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 25:32 I just made that up.

Eugene 25:33 We're vulnerable here.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 25:34 Okay.

Trevor Noah 25:35 You had us.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 25:35 I know. I'm sorry.

Trevor Noah 25:35 You had us. You had us.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 25:37 I'm sorry.

Trevor Noah 25:37 I was sold.

Eugene 25:38 [laughs] Welcome to government.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 25:40 That's not true. That's not true.

Trevor Noah 25:41 I was sold.

Eugene 25:42 [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 25:42 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 25:42 I was... Let me tell you, I had already scheduled in my brain calendar every event I'm going to, and I was gonna say 27%.

Eugene 25:50 [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 25:50 No, no, don't, don't say it.

Trevor Noah 25:53 [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 25:54 No, I actually, uh, I am actually pro these food corporations doing things like what you're saying because I do think that i- if you can add to something that someone's already consuming-

Trevor Noah 26:04 Yes

Dr. Jessica Knurick 26:04 ... and you can almost make a better version of it-

Trevor Noah 26:06 Okay

Dr. Jessica Knurick 26:06 ... in the sense, and when we say better, it's just like y- they're adding in these nutrients that can help, help potentially, like, make, potentially make them, like, more satiating.

Trevor Noah 26:15 Right.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 26:15 Right? Like fill you up as you're eating them, which I think can be a net positive. So, so I would say that I think that that would be, like, a step in the right direction to add some of these things because it could potentially help on the back end. I don't really have data to say, like, how much better it is-

Trevor Noah 26:29 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 26:30 ... or how, how effective it actually is, but theoretically, that seems like it could be a potentially good thing to me.

Trevor Noah 26:35 I feel like that's where they scam us, though. They're smart because-

Eugene 26:37 Mm

Trevor Noah 26:38 ... y- someone like you will say, "You need more protein in your diet."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 26:41 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 26:41 "You need to make sure that you get more fiber." You, and then they just write on the bag, "More protein."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 26:45 Correct.

Trevor Noah 26:45 "More fiber, just like the doctor said."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 26:48 Correct.

Trevor Noah 26:48 And then I'm like, "Ah, back to those Doritos."

Trevor Noah 26:51 [laughs]

Eugene 26:51 You know, everything that you are saying about Doritos is so true about how they make you feel, 'cause I'm constantly battling with that. If I haven't eaten anything healthy in the morning, I'll start with junk and I'll start thinking I'm, I'm doing good, but then I'll feel even worse throughout the day. But my question has always been: What is, what is the definition of being full, and what is the definition of being hungry? Because there's people who go, "I don't eat that much," and they're fine, but there's people who if they skip a meal, they ultimately, you know, they fall into collapse because they are super hungry. So when you're eating something good, what is the battery level of, "No, now I'm full"? Is it because you've had the mass of food, or is it because-

Trevor Noah 27:27 Oh, yeah

Eugene 27:27 ... your mind is going, "We've ticked that box. We've got enough of that, and we're good now"?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 27:32 I actually do not know the exact answer to your question.

Eugene 27:35 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 27:36 Whether which one it is. I just know, we ha- we obviously have hormones that are kind of, like, sending signals to our brain. We have hunger hormones, we have... And satiety hormones. And so essentially-

Eugene 27:46 What are s- satiety hormones?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 27:47 Satiety means-

Eugene 27:48 Satiety

Dr. Jessica Knurick 27:48 ... like you're full. Like-

Eugene 27:49 Okay

Dr. Jessica Knurick 27:49 ... so hunger and then full.

Eugene 27:50 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 27:51 Um, and so when, you know, when you are eating to a certain level, this is why they kind of say to, like, eat slow and digest your food because it gives, like, it gives your hormones essentially time to kind of trigger your brain, "Hey, we're full," right? So if you're kind of, if you are relaxed, you're sitting. You know, a lot of people on vacation say that they feel a lot better when they're on vacation when they, when they're eating, and a big part of that is they're relaxed. They're not stressed. They're not running around while eating, and, like, they're not driving their car and eating a sandwich, right? They're, like, sitting at a table and chatting and, like, having a meal and digesting that meal. And so when they do that, they tend to eat less as well-

Eugene 28:25 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 28:25 ... because when you're digesting, it gives those signals time to be like, "Hey, we're full, so let's not overeat."

Eugene 28:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 28:31 Which is another thing about ultra-processed foods. It makes it really f- like, convenient to eat quickly, right? And so the quicker we eat, the more we're gonna eat before we feel that feeling of full.

Trevor Noah 28:41 Okay, so help me understand one more thing. Uh, 'cause I, I, I, I, I really don't get this even though I try and read it and understand it.

Eugene 28:48 Mm.

Trevor Noah 28:50 How is it that that tiny bag can make you gain weight when it's, like, that, that tiny? Help me understand, like, the calorie and, and-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 28:59 Mm

Trevor Noah 28:59 ... why you're gaining weight from a thing. So I, I can eat half a watermelon, as I've said.

Eugene 29:04 Mm.

Trevor Noah 29:05 And I can eat, like, a few bags of Doritos. Now, I'm not saying this scientifically.

Eugene 29:09 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 29:09 But the Doritos will... If I look at my body, if I have, like, if I have a week of terrible food like that-

Eugene 29:15 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 29:15 ... I'll see a difference versus if I eat, like, watermelons the whole week type, like, fruit things. W- how, how does that work? Because it, it seems like this is, the mass of this is greater.

Eugene 29:24 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 29:25 But I don't think people fully understand how that tiny amount of food is making them gain more weight than more food, like, in a plate.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 29:33 It's just calories. It's, 'cause what, it's what we term energy density or calorie density.

Trevor Noah 29:38 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 29:38 So a, a watermelon is very, um, is not calorie dense at all, which means that for the mass that you're consuming-

Trevor Noah 29:46 Okay

Dr. Jessica Knurick 29:46 ... the calories are very low, right? Because they're, the watermelon, first of all, it has tons of water. Like, that's its main thing. Um, it's also got fiber, and it's got all of these other, like, properties to it. So, so when you're consuming it, you, it feels like you're eating a lot. It's just like if you consume, like, a huge plate of vegetables, right?

Trevor Noah 30:03 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 30:04 There's not gonna be a lot of calories in those vegetables, but it's gonna look like a lot. Like, uh, you're gonna... If you hand me a big salad, I'm gonna be like, "Whoa, that looks big." And then you hand me, like, this little bowl of pasta. It might not look as big, but it's gonna have way more-

Trevor Noah 30:16 Ah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 30:16 ... calories in it-

Trevor Noah 30:17 Okay

Dr. Jessica Knurick 30:17 ... than my big salad-

Trevor Noah 30:18 Okay

Dr. Jessica Knurick 30:18 ... right, of, of vegetables, you know, w- if you don't put dressing on it. So it's, it's all about the caloric intake.

Trevor Noah 30:24 Yes.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 30:24 So the, the small bag of chips has likely far more calories than the half a watermelon or th- the few pieces of watermelon, whatever you're eating of the watermelon.

Trevor Noah 30:32 Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 30:33 Um, so, so, so that's really what you're looking at.

Trevor Noah 30:35 Okay, so-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 30:35 It's all about the calories that you're consuming

Trevor Noah 30:37 ... am I correct in then saying if I think of it as an analogy, it's like- Calories are like words in a song, right?

Eugene 30:45 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 30:45 You can have a, a rap song where there's, like, a lot of words-

Eugene 30:48 Bang words

Trevor Noah 30:49 ... in each line, just a lot of words.

Eugene 30:51 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 30:51 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 30:52 And then you can have, like, opera or something where it's, like, one word for the whole... You know what I mean?

Eugene 30:57 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 30:58 Ave Maria. That was only two words.

Eugene 31:05 I'm sorry about my friends.

Trevor Noah 31:06 No, no, no. This is-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 31:07 Yes.

Trevor Noah 31:07 Hey, hey

Dr. Jessica Knurick 31:07 ... the wa- the watermelon is Ave Maria in this analogy.

Trevor Noah 31:09 Th- thank you. Thank you.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 31:11 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 31:11 You see, experts don't judge people. That's-

Eugene 31:12 You are the one who fell for the sticky lizard scam.

Trevor Noah 31:14 No, that is why-

Eugene 31:14 And you are feeling-

Trevor Noah 31:15 That is why-

Eugene 31:15 You are falling for Ave Maria now

Trevor Noah 31:16 ... no, that is why she's an expert who's connecting-

Eugene 31:19 Jessica [laughs]

Trevor Noah 31:19 ... with people, because she doesn't treat people like idiots-

Eugene 31:21 She-

Trevor Noah 31:22 ... when they're trying to understand.

Eugene 31:23 Dr. Jessica, you have to learn to say no.

Trevor Noah 31:25 No, no, no.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 31:25 I actually think it's a good analogy.

Trevor Noah 31:27 Thank you very much.

Eugene 31:28 That's what I was thinking to myself-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 31:29 I've never even thought of it analogy until now [laughs]

Eugene 31:29 ... inside as I got the-

Trevor Noah 31:30 Yes, because, because now it's helping me understand.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 31:32 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 31:32 I never fully... I won't lie, I never fully understood it.

Eugene 31:34 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 31:34 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 31:34 But now when you're saying it, I'm going to-

Eugene 31:36 Yeah

Trevor Noah 31:36 ... okay, Ave Maria is two words, but look at how long it f- You get what I'm saying?

Eugene 31:41 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 31:42 And then, like, if you go to, like, a rap song or something-

Eugene 31:45 Lyrically dense

Trevor Noah 31:45 ... then it's lyrically dense.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 31:46 Exactly.

Eugene 31:47 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 31:47 Do you get what I'm saying?

Eugene 31:47 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 31:47 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 31:48 Lyrically dense is calorically dense.

Trevor Noah 31:50 Aha.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 31:50 So calorically d-

Trevor Noah 31:51 I see

Dr. Jessica Knurick 31:51 ... the chips are calorically dense. And then you add to it they don't have fiber and they don't have protein, which help to fill you up.

Trevor Noah 31:58 Okay.

Eugene 31:58 Mm.

Trevor Noah 31:58 So those things are, like, separate to the calories.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 31:59 Right.

Eugene 32:00 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 32:00 Ah, you see. I don't think-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 32:01 Well-

Trevor Noah 32:01 ... most people know this.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 32:02 They're not separate to the calories. Like, protein is, is involved in the calories, but they help to make you feel fuller faster.

Trevor Noah 32:08 Okay. So they're, like, teaming up with the calorie to do a better thing-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 32:12 Yeah

Trevor Noah 32:12 ... for the... Ah, okay.

Eugene 32:13 Or where else if you have just the calories by themselves, they don't have a teammate, and then they actually become bad for you.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 32:19 Well, you can't just have calories by themselves, 'cause calories... I mean, do you really want me to get into nutrition science? [laughs]

Trevor Noah 32:24 Yeah, this is why... Yeah. This

Trevor Noah 32:25 is, this is what people need to learn. I, I-

Eugene 32:26 Yeah?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 32:26 Yeah

Trevor Noah 32:26 ... genuinely... Yeah, okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 32:27 So there's, what, we have macronutrients and micronutrients.

Trevor Noah 32:30 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 32:30 Micronutrients are vitamins and minerals, right?

Trevor Noah 32:32 Got it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 32:32 Vitamin C, vitamin D, whatever it is. Macronutrients are calorie-containing nutrients.

Trevor Noah 32:37 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 32:37 So that's protein, carbohydrates, and fat. Those are the, those are the three, like-

Trevor Noah 32:42 Got it

Dr. Jessica Knurick 32:42 ... prot- So, so everything you eat is comprised of i- and/or protein, carbohydrates-

Trevor Noah 32:49 Got it

Dr. Jessica Knurick 32:49 ... fats.

Trevor Noah 32:49 Got it.

Eugene 32:49 And, and two out of those three-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 32:50 And those all have calories

Eugene 32:51 ... okay. Two out of those three have been demonized.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 32:54 Except with-

Eugene 32:55 Carbs and fat.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 32:56 And we-

Trevor Noah 32:56 Yes.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 32:56 Yeah, and we need all of them. They're all very important.

Trevor Noah 32:59 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 33:00 Yeah, they all play roles in our, in our physiology.

Trevor Noah 33:01 So if you were advising somebody on their diets and they said, "I'm staying away from carbohydrates-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 33:06 Uh-huh

Trevor Noah 33:06 ... and fats," you would be not happy?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 33:09 No, because you cannot eat 100% protein diet.

Trevor Noah 33:12 Oh.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 33:12 That would be very bad for your body.

Trevor Noah 33:14 Why is that bad for your body?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 33:15 Because, well, f- first of all, we run on carbohydrates. I mean, that's, that's... A- and we're getting our fiber from carbohydrates. That's the only place you can get your fiber. Um, and, uh, you also need fat for brain health, for many things, for nerve signaling. So fat's in-

Trevor Noah 33:29 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 33:29 ... incredibly essential, particularly, I mean, for all of us. So each, each macronutrient has a really important role in our body, and, and they all kind of play together. And so you can say, "I'm gonna eat a lower carbohydrate diet," and that could be potentially beneficial for someone.

Trevor Noah 33:42 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 33:43 But you can't just, like, cut out carbohydrates and fat and only eat protein.

Trevor Noah 33:46 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 33:46 Like, just only eating, like, raw chicken breast.

Trevor Noah 33:49 So when we see, yeah-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 33:49 Which also would have a little fat. It's hard to get, like, pure protein unless you're eating just all ultra-processed protein powder.

Trevor Noah 33:56 So when we see these people selling their diets online where they go-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 33:59 Mm

Trevor Noah 33:59 ... "I've just been eating meat only for two months, and I feel amazing, and now there's no cancer in my body," we should be skeptical of that.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 34:06 Yeah. And just to be clear, meat has fat, right? So if you're eating, like, steak or you're eating-

Trevor Noah 34:11 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 34:11 ... really any meat, it's gonna have some fat.

Trevor Noah 34:13 Fat.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 34:13 So meat has protein and fat without carbohydrates.

Trevor Noah 34:15 Okay. Got it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 34:16 So they're eating a, a protein and fat diet without carbohydrates.

Trevor Noah 34:19 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 34:19 And yeah, I'm, uh, um, the, what the literature says is there can be short-term benefits for some people on a diet like that, where you're really reducing carbohydrates, like a ketogenic diet or a carnivore diet. Um, but the long-term literature does not pan out. Like, we don't have good, good evidence that that's sustainable for the long term.

Trevor Noah 34:36 When we, when we look at food labels, how are we able to discern any of this ourselves? So, you know, I know there's that, like, simple rule that they give you where they say, "If you wanna stay healthy, stay on the outside of a grocery store."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 34:48 Yeah.

Eugene 34:48 Wow.

Trevor Noah 34:49 And they go like, "Just never go in."

Eugene 34:50 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 34:51 "So stay on the perimeter-

Eugene 34:52 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 34:52 ... and then leave."

Eugene 34:53 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 34:54 "And they say you will be healthier."

Eugene 34:55 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 34:56 Right? But, but if people are looking at a package, how do you know when the thing is or isn't bad? Because I, I remember once seeing, um, um, RFK was talking about, like, ingredients in food, and he was like, and he was like, "Oh, look at the back label." And I had to read the subtitles. [laughs]

Eugene 35:13 [laughs] I was, I was like, "Sticky Lizard, is that you?"

Trevor Noah 35:15 No, and he would... And then he was, like, talking about the thing. And he said like, "Uh, this is, what is this? What is this? What?" And, and then-

Eugene 35:22 Mm

Trevor Noah 35:22 ... there was scientists who came on and said, "No, that's just the scientific name for vitamin C."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 35:27 No, it was riboflavin, I think, in that video.

Trevor Noah 35:29 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 35:29 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 35:29 And it was like, "Oh, no, that's just the scientific name for s- for salt."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 35:33 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 35:33 "And that's the scientific..." So-

Eugene 35:35 Mm

Trevor Noah 35:36 ... like, h- is, is there a shortcut, or is there a way to know what, like, the colloquial word is versus the scientific word? Or, like, how, how, how are people supposed to know this? 'Cause it all seems like it's poison-

Eugene 35:49 Yeah

Trevor Noah 35:49 ... when you read it on a bag, but then some of it is not.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 35:52 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 35:52 And then some of it may be.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 35:55 So w- when you're looking at a nutrition label... And this is why, um, like, I'm a big advocate of front-of-package labeling, which is, like, more clear for people to really understand, oh, this is high in sugar, or this is high in fat.

Trevor Noah 36:05 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 36:05 Just so people are more aware. Right now, we don't have that, but they're working on it. But, um, we have labels, and you'll always be able to see the amount of calories, the amount of protein and carbohydrates and fats, um, and then an ingredient list.

Trevor Noah 36:17 Right.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 36:17 And so, you know, it depends on what someone's goal is really. Like, if you're looking at a label... I don't actually look at labels much myself.

Trevor Noah 36:25 Oh.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 36:26 Um, because I kind of, you know, I, I, I don't eat a t- ton of, like, prepackaged food, but the pa- prepackaged food I eat, you know, if I'm buying, like, crackers or something, you can look at it if you want to and, like, look at how much fat a cracker has, and then you can compare it to another cracker that has a bit lower fat. Um, but, you know, if, if you are just kind of, like, shopping for yourself, um- I don't, the label, the label can give you, you know, s- the way that the ingredients label is, is that it's, the first ingredient is the largest in the, in the food.

Trevor Noah 36:58 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 36:58 And then it, it goes down from there. And so a lot of times in the ingredient list it's, like, vitamins and minerals, and there's a lot of them.

Trevor Noah 37:04 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 37:04 Especially, like, wheat products, 'cause we, um, fortify our wheat here, and so they have, like, different B vitamins in them. Um, so a lot of times it can s- feel very overwhelming to see, like, a big, long ingredient list.

Trevor Noah 37:15 [sighs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 37:15 But it's not as overwhelming as one might think.

Trevor Noah 37:17 That's interesting.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 37:18 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 37:18 Because it's actually just contained in the food, 'cause that's how the food was made.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 37:22 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 37:22 Like, the, the, the actual...

Dr. Jessica Knurick 37:23 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 37:23 Yeah, you see, I didn't know that about wheat in that way.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 37:25 We fortify and we fortify with, like, vitamins, um-

Trevor Noah 37:27 Right, right, right

Dr. Jessica Knurick 37:28 ... and minerals in the, in the wheat.

Eugene 37:30 So you'd find that people who work out will have a pre-workout meal and a post-workout meal sometimes. Maybe it's a shake, maybe it's a salad, whatever it is. The average person who doesn't work out, do you have to be conscious about if you're gonna have maybe a busy day and you're gonna work, you're gonna walk, like, maybe four miles today, can you specifically look into your ca- pantry or your fridge and go, "I'm gonna eat like this because I'm gonna be active," versus, "I know I'm not gonna get out the house for the next four days, so eating this might be bad for me."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 37:59 In terms of the amount that they're eating?

Eugene 38:00 In terms of the kind of food and the amount that they're eating.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 38:03 Uh, they're, so they're going for a walk for f-

Eugene 38:04 Yeah, let's say I know that-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 38:05 A four-mile walk?

Eugene 38:05 ... this week I'm gonna, I'm gonna walk.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 38:07 Okay, yeah.

Eugene 38:08 I'm gonna walk a lot, so I'm gonna walk from home to work.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 38:10 Mm-hmm.

Eugene 38:11 Is there specific foods that I should avoid if I know that next week I'm working from home, I shouldn't eat any of these?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 38:17 No. No. No, I think that, you know, it, y- you can, you can, like, down regulate the amount of food that you're eating if you down regulate your, your energy expenditure or your, or your physical activity.

Eugene 38:27 Explain, explain down regulate, Dr. Jessica.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 38:28 Like, you can, you can decrease, right? You don't have to eat as much, um, food.

Eugene 38:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 38:33 So you'll eat more food when you're more physically active, and then the next week if you're less physically active, and that's where, like, hunger signals come in.

Eugene 38:40 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 38:40 Right? And so if you, if you feel hungry, you eat again, kind of like try to digest your food. Eat 'til you are no longer hungry. Um, don't overeat just 'cause it, like, you know, continues to taste so good.

Eugene 38:51 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 38:51 Um, or, like, hobby-wise, a lot of us will do that just, like, out of habit. Um, and so just, you know, eat to fullness, and then, and then the next week you probably won't be as hungry, and so, like, you will not probably eat as much.

Eugene 39:02 How-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 39:02 You don't have to plan for it, though. That's not really-

Eugene 39:04 How important is listening to your body? 'Cause sometimes, like, what you touched on, this hobby eating and habit eating-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 39:10 Yeah

Eugene 39:10 ... is quite prevalent right now, right? You see something on television, on social media, you go, "I think I'll order one of those." But how is it, how is it, how important is it to listen to your body and go, "It might be 6:00, and I usually eat at this time, but today I'm not hungry."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 39:22 Yeah, it's really, it's really important to listen to your body. Um, and not, yeah, and not override signals. And, and that's why, like, distraction can be a problem too sometimes. So, like, if we're really distracted or really stressed or really, you know, doing things while we're eating-

Eugene 39:34 Oh, yeah, yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 39:34 ... it can lead to overeating versus just kind of like being present with your meal and sitting there. And now we're getting into, like, the psychology of eating, but it is, it's a lot of, like, presence can really help in terms of, like, understanding your own hunger and s- and satiety cues or fullness cues.

Trevor Noah 39:48 Do you think there needs to be, it's

Trevor Noah 39:50 interesting that you said that. Do you think there needs to be an overlap in how we talk about these subjects?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 39:54 Mm.

Trevor Noah 39:54 Because for a long time, experts have always, like, stayed in their lane.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 39:58 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 39:58 And I mean, like, just stayed in their lane.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 40:01 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 40:01 You know?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 40:02 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 40:02 They'll go like, "No, no, I'm a bone doctor." And you're like, "But are you a doctor though?" They're like, "Yes, of bones." You're like, "But can you tell me what's..." They're like, "No."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 40:10 Mm.

Trevor Noah 40:10 "Bones."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 40:11 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 40:12 And I'm not saying they shouldn't do that, but it, it almost feels like w- then the gaps open up for the people who are like, "Oh, I can tell you about bones and more."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 40:20 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 40:20 And those people may not be the experts, you know? Uh, like I've, I've seen a bunch of your videos where, for instance, you're talking to moms. And I understand why, because you told us the personal connection you have with misinformation online to moms. But I've, I've noticed that you, you get into the emotional side of things. You don't just say, "Here's the facts."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 40:38 Mm.

Trevor Noah 40:38 "Here are the..." Yeah. You'll say, like, "I know you're scared," or, "Hey, it might be scary when you hear," or, "When you... You might be worried about that," or-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 40:45 Mm

Trevor Noah 40:45 ... "Here's..." You feel like you want to... When did, when did you decide, or why do you think it's important to, to make that shift and expand beyond, like, just the literature and the science and include the human on the other side of the information?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 40:58 I think I benefit from my audience and the, the conversations that I have, like, in my DMs, which I, which I actually do engage with quite often, and, and hearing how much stress and anxiety and, and food anxiety-

Trevor Noah 41:12 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 41:12 ... um, many of these women have. And, and again, I went through this life stage of pregnancy and postpartum, and I actually, with my second I had pretty bad postpartum anxiety. And so, um, I, it was important to, it's, I mean, I, I kind of lived it. And so I understand how they are feeling.

Trevor Noah 41:26 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 41:26 And I think that that gives me a lot of empathy for what's, what they're, what they're f- going through. Um, and so that's actually why I also am, like, so committed to kind of correcting some of this misinformation, particularly-

Trevor Noah 41:39 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 41:39 ... that that's targeted at new moms and young moms.

Trevor Noah 41:41 Right.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 41:41 Because, because anxiety is really high. And so I hear from women all the time in my DMs about how much food anxiety they have and how they're scared to eat anything, and how-

Trevor Noah 41:48 Oh, mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 41:49 ... you know, because that's, that's what the al- If you get into a particular algorithm on social media and you just keep seeing the same things over and over, and that's what plays really well to social media algorithms, are these conspiratorial kind of c- really sensational claims, um, it can be really problematic. And so I think it's really important to me when I'm presenting information to meet people where they are and, and kind of, like, bridge that gap so then they'll be more open to kind of hearing the information that I'm providing and, and the data that I'm providing. [upbeat music]

Trevor Noah 42:17 We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break. [upbeat music] What's your, what's your bat signal? Like, what's the thing that you see that makes you go, "Time to get the cape out"?

Eugene 42:34 Whoa.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 42:35 [laughs]

Eugene 42:35 Whoa.

Trevor Noah 42:35 'Cause there's got... No, because I mean, I think of-

Eugene 42:37 Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Trevor Noah 42:37 I think of you like that.

Eugene 42:38 Whoa, whoa. I don't think of Jessica like that at all.

Trevor Noah 42:41 Wh- what do you mean?

Eugene 42:42 I, I really, I really don't think of Jessica-

Trevor Noah 42:44 You don't think of her like a superhero?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 42:46 Get the bat signal.

Trevor Noah 42:47 Yeah, because, because, uh, in one moment you're sitting at home-

Eugene 42:49 You're like, "Hey, guys. Let's get the bat signal out."

Trevor Noah 42:51 No, but-

Eugene 42:51 "Let's get the cape."

Trevor Noah 42:52 Yeah, but that's too-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 42:53 Let's get the bat s-

Trevor Noah 42:54 Yeah, but everyone has their Batman, especially 'cause you, think about it. You're sitting at home.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 42:58 Mm.

Trevor Noah 42:58 Right? You're a mom and you're a doctor, yes, but you're at home.

Eugene 43:00 Mm.

Trevor Noah 43:01 There's gotta be something that you see That makes you go, "I gotta get my bat cape." Uh-uh, uh, uh. Like, what, I wanna know what that thing is. Uh, uh, Trevor, don't do it. So you don't want her to be Batman? No, don't do that. You saying Dr. Jessica can't be Batman? No, don't do that. Is that what you're saying? Go back to how when she sees the- Oh yeah, you gotta do it. You, so you're at home. Yeah. You hang out with the kids, you're doing your whole thing, and then a video comes up. You're like- Mm ... "What is this video?" And then you see the video and you're like, "I've gotta sen- I've gotta do something about this." [laughs] What are you looking for?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 43:24 That's exactly how I'm gonna say it from now on.

Trevor Noah 43:28 [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 43:28 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 43:29 What are, like, what are you looking for-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 43:31 Yeah

Trevor Noah 43:31 ... that triggers the- Mm. Because the, the, there could be things that people have, there's old wives' tales. Right.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 43:37 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 43:39 I could be wrong on this, but a lot of them aren't really harmful, they just don't do- You know, it's like people throw salt over your... It's- Yes ... things like that in- Yeah ... even in nutrition I'm assuming.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 43:48 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 43:48 And then there are things that are actually detrimental to people's health.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 43:51 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 43:51 Misinformation. Misinformation that'll, that'll hurt you. Right. 'Cause there's useless misinformation- Right ... and there's misinformation that'll hurt you. When you're online and you're seeing these videos, what's something that triggers you to go, "Oh, no, no, no. I've gotta step in and..." Like, for instance, what's the most recent one that you did where you went, "Oh-" Yeah "... I've gotta step in here"?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 44:09 Yeah, so usually it's someone will... I, I, most of the things that I, um, respond to, people have sent me. And so if somebody sends it to me and then I see it and it, they are very concerned-

Trevor Noah 44:18 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 44:18 ... that's, like, a, that's one of the signals that I look at.

Trevor Noah 44:20 Okay. Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 44:20 So, oh my gosh, they're, they are concerned. Then I'll go watch the video, and if I see in the comment section a lot of people who are either being misled by it-

Trevor Noah 44:28 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 44:28 ... or being concerned by it, um, that's, that's usually what I look for. So it's, like, videos that a lot of people are influencing a lot of people-

Trevor Noah 44:35 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 44:35 ... or were, are confusing a lot of people.

Trevor Noah 44:38 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 44:38 Um, that's, that's generally what I'll do. And then I also kind of think, "Can I provide a good rebuttal that's not too in the weeds in a succinct amount of time?"

Trevor Noah 44:47 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 44:47 'Cause it's social media, right?

Trevor Noah 44:49 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 44:49 And so if it, if it's gonna be, like, a 10-minute rebuttal, it's usually something that I'll kind of put to the side. Um, but if it's something that I'm like, I can literally just show a couple of articles about exactly how false this is, then, then that's something that I'll kind of pick up. So something that's, like, in the vernacu- in- in the, like, we're- we're all talking about it.

Trevor Noah 45:06 Okay. Got it. Got it. Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 45:06 And, and that's in, like, the, our thoughts.

Trevor Noah 45:08 Yes. The zeitgeist.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 45:09 And then the... Yeah, the zeitgeist.

Trevor Noah 45:10 Yeah, yeah. We're in the zeitgeist.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 45:11 Yeah. And then, um, and then can I really, like, respond to it effectively in a short amount of

Dr. Jessica Knurick 45:16 time?

Trevor Noah 45:16 Do the other people ever respond back to you? Like, w- because you're out there saying, "This is false. This is fake." Do those people ever come back at you?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 45:25 Um, I mean, it's happened a few times.

Trevor Noah 45:27 Yeah?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 45:27 Usually they just block me.

Trevor Noah 45:29 Oh, lazy.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 45:30 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 45:31 So they don't, like, try and challenge you at all?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 45:33 Not usually, no.

Trevor Noah 45:34 Ah, man. I, I always-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 45:35 Sometimes, though.

Trevor Noah 45:36 Oh, yeah?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 45:36 Sometimes. Yeah, sometimes they refuse to, like, accept what I've said too, or they'll just kind of, like, dig in. Um, just depends on who it is, I suppose.

Trevor Noah 45:44 So in that type of scenario, when someone is claiming to be an expert and another person is an expert- Is an expert, mm-hmm ... how do you then show a neutral observer where the truth actually lies?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 45:57 Yeah. Yeah, so I, um, I don't rely on them to just believe me because I'm me. I, that's, that's why I use so many, like, references in my videos, and I'll show, like... If I, if I tell y- For example, um, a lot of people on social media are saying, like, s- synthetic food dyes are banned in Europe.

Trevor Noah 46:14 Yes.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 46:14 Right?

Trevor Noah 46:15 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 46:15 Like, you've probably heard it.

Trevor Noah 46:16 Uh-huh.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 46:16 Red Dye 40 is banned in Europe.

Trevor Noah 46:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 46:18 So I will... And I, I think that's a harmful narrative, because what it does is it kind of, like, plays into this idea that, like, America is poisoning us-

Trevor Noah 46:25 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 46:25 ... and all these other countries care.

Trevor Noah 46:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 46:27 Like, their scientists care, and their regulatory agencies care, and they're banning these things, and that's just not true. And so what I'll do is I'll show, you know, all five synthetic food dyes that are used in the United States predominantly, which is red f- uh, Red 40, Yellow 5, Yellow 6, Blue 1 and Blue 2, have all been deemed safe by EFSA in the European Union. All of them.

Trevor Noah 46:46 Oh, they have?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 46:47 All of them.

Trevor Noah 46:47 Huh.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 46:48 Yeah. See, see you're c- you... [laughs]

Trevor Noah 46:50 Yeah, no, I didn't-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 46:51 This is because of the narrative-

Trevor Noah 46:52 I didn't know that they've all been... Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 46:52 ... on social media.

Trevor Noah 46:53 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 46:53 And, and they have. They've all been deemed safe here-

Trevor Noah 46:55 I knew that they were deemed safe, but I didn't know that they were also deemed safe in Europe.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 46:59 Yes.

Trevor Noah 46:59 Does that make sense?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 46:59 Yes.

Trevor Noah 47:00 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 47:00 So, yeah, so they're deemed safe here by the FDA.

Trevor Noah 47:02 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 47:02 But they're also deemed safe in, in the European Union by EFSA. And so I'll go and I'll show kind of, like, the, their regulatory agency, or not the regulatory, but their, their scientific safety agency, and I'll show how they're, they've been deemed safe. So you don't have to take my word for it. Go fact-check me. Um, but I'm gonna bring this information to you so that you're aware that it's not, it's not a difference in regulation.

Trevor Noah 47:23 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 47:23 Um, and then, and then I kind of like will walk them through, uh, you know, whatever else we're talking about. But I think that that's really helpful to kind of give people their own ability to then go and look into it more if they want to, or actually, like, show them why it's false instead of just kind of relying on them believing me that it's false. Like I'm doing right now-

Trevor Noah 47:40 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 47:40 ... 'cause I'm not really showing you that it's false. But go fact-check me after this. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 47:43 No, no, no, I m- I mean, I'll, I'll read this, but I, what I'm saying-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 47:46 Yeah

Trevor Noah 47:46 ... is, like, I knew one part of it, is what I'm saying.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 47:48 Mm.

Trevor Noah 47:48 Do you know? It's like I just knew one piece of it, and then I didn't know another piece of it, and I think that's, that's actually what people don't realize. That's, that's fertile ground-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 47:56 Mm

Trevor Noah 47:56 ... for misinformation.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 47:58 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 47:58 A lot of people think, and, and this is something that-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 48:01 Yeah

Trevor Noah 48:01 ... I, I had to learn, and I, I, I learned it acutely during COVID. Before that, I didn't really need to know it, I think.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 48:07 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 48:07 I didn't understand how so many people felt the way they did about vaccines, right? And forget the COVID vaccines. I will always say this to people who, who are even, like, fighting with. I go like, "Let's forget the COVID vaccine for a moment. Take it away," 'cause I understand this was a unique moment in time. It was fast. It w- it's confus- let's forget it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 48:23 Mm.

Trevor Noah 48:24 But vaccines themselves, I don't understand how you're against them. They'll be like, "Because they're not safe, and they're not this." And then I go like, "I grew up in a country where, like, my arm looks like a war zone." Do you know what I mean? It's like, just I've got every vaccine. You've got every vaccine.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 48:37 Mm.

Trevor Noah 48:37 Our parents have every vaccine. Everyone's just b- you d- Please tell me you've been vaccinated.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 48:42 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 48:42 [laughs] But they didn't give us a choice. You were in school-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 48:45 Mm

Trevor Noah 48:45 ... bam, bam, bam, jab, jab, jab, and they did the thing. Yeah. The polio vaccine. Yeah, like, all, all the- Malaria. Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 48:49 Yeah

Trevor Noah 48:49 ... yeah, all of these things, right? And so what I then realized was- It's sort of the opposite. It's not the people who don't know anything, it's the people who are actually reading and trying to learn and really informing themselves-

Eugene 49:05 Yeah

Trevor Noah 49:06 ... that are oftentimes the most susceptible to the misinformation.

Eugene 49:09 Misinformation, yes

Trevor Noah 49:09 ... because they, quote-unquote, "Do their own research."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 49:12 Yeah.

Eugene 49:12 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 49:12 Do you know what I mean?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 49:12 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 49:12 So they go, "Well, I actually read this and I read this, and have you seen that video? And I saw this study that was done, and I saw this..." And, and then it's like, "Is it a study? Is it not a study? It was a study on five people. Who conducted the study? How do you even know when a study is good? Is it a meta-analysis or is it a..."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 49:26 Mm.

Trevor Noah 49:26 It, it becomes... But that's where it's the fertile ground.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 49:29 Mm.

Trevor Noah 49:29 And so like the Mel- Make America, Make America Healthy Again movement.

Eugene 49:33 MAHA.

Trevor Noah 49:33 Yeah, MAHA.

Eugene 49:34 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 49:35 If you look at it, they, 80% of what they're saying is sort of like the truth. The 20% is where they make the money and the magic happen.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 49:43 I mean,

Dr. Jessica Knurick 49:44 that's the best kind of misinformation. You, you have a little bit of truth, and that's what gets people a- l- that's what brings people in.

Trevor Noah 49:49 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 49:50 Right? It's like, "Oh, they're- they're helping." Even if it's like 80% of the time they're helping.

Trevor Noah 49:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 49:54 Right? Some of these people. And it's like they're giving out good information, but it's the 20% of the time where they're completely manipulating the narrative and then, you know, taking advantage of you and the narrative, um, that's really the biggest problem. So yeah, I think, I think you're right, there is a problem right now because, um, much of the misinformation we see, which is sometimes why it's the h- so hard to kind of combat it and, and, like, explain the nuance because there's, there's overlap there.

Trevor Noah 50:18 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 50:18 There's like, we, yes, this is true, and here is how that is being mani- manipulated.

Trevor Noah 50:23 Yeah, because you now have, you have to go yes first.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 50:26 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 50:26 And people are like, "Oh, so you do agree?" And then you're like, "But, but, but..." And now-

Eugene 50:29 Yeah

Trevor Noah 50:29 ... now it's too late. Like seed oils is a good one.

Eugene 50:31 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 50:32 That, that's like one of those myths that also doesn't go away. Do, do you, do, do you, do you ever see these where no matter what happens they just keep coming back, they just keep coming back, they just... So, like seed oils is a good one.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 50:44 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 50:44 Um-

Eugene 50:44 Sunflower oil versus canola oil.

Trevor Noah 50:46 It, just seed oils in South A-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 50:48 Those are both seed oils

Eugene 50:48 ... in South Africa, that's what's going on now.

Trevor Noah 50:50 Oh, that's the fight in South Africa?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 50:51 Oh.

Eugene 50:51 Yes, 'cause they're going, "Canola is, canola oil is used for things that you wouldn't wanna know about." And then people for a long time were using canola oil over sunflower oil.

Trevor Noah 50:59 Huh.

Eugene 51:00 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 51:00 And now the switch is people are going back to sunflower.

Eugene 51:01 Now everywhere you go, canola oil, canola oil, canola oil, canola, canola. So there's a big drive, I think it's a fight back obviously from the sunflower industry-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 51:08 Mm

Eugene 51:08 ... that's going, "You need to use sunflower oil. You need to use sunflower oil." So a lot of people now have moved there. Avocado oil hasn't caught on that much, and obviously olive oil hasn't caught on that much, but the big battle right now in South Africa is between canola oil and olive oil.

Trevor Noah 51:21 So are, are seed oils-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 51:22 Canola and, uh, sunflower

Eugene 51:22 ... I mean, and sunflower oil.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 51:24 Sunflower.

Trevor Noah 51:24 So are seed oils toxic?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 51:26 No. [laughs] No.

Trevor Noah 51:27 Is palm oil toxic?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 51:29 No. Well, palm oil has some issues with the environment, right? And with like that, that sort of thing. But pal- all seed oils, what... The best nutrition science research that we have, um, suggests the exact opposite than, than that they're toxic.

Trevor Noah 51:42 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 51:42 And this is where, again, a little bit of, a little bit of truth kind of like gets kind of spun into these interesting narratives. So seed oils, which are ve- basically vegetable oils, that's what, that's what we've called them.

Trevor Noah 51:54 Yes.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 51:54 They're like sunflower, safflower, canola, rapeseed in other countries. Um, these fr- these oils are used all around the world, right? The, it's not just in the United States.

Trevor Noah 52:03 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 52:03 Um, and what we have in terms of nutrition science research, when we look at epidemiological data and we look at people who are actually consuming seed oils, um, it, it shows the exact opposite that than they're harmful for us.

Trevor Noah 52:15 Oh.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 52:15 It actually shows-

Trevor Noah 52:16 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 52:17 ... um, a cardi- cardio protective mechanism, so that it, it looks like, it looks like they are cardio protective, especially when you switch them for saturated fats. And so-

Trevor Noah 52:25 What are saturated fats, like beef tallow?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 52:27 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 52:27 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 52:27 Beef tallow. Um-

Trevor Noah 52:28 'Cause beef tallow I've now seen online-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 52:30 Butter, beef tallow

Trevor Noah 52:30 ... that's the healthy thing. This is the best thing to use.

Eugene 52:32 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 52:32 You should only be using beef tallow.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 52:34 Yeah, that's the MAHA.

Trevor Noah 52:34 They're like, "You should wash your face in beef tallow."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 52:36 Yeah. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 52:37 Do you remember when they were telling you to wash your face in coconut oil? There was a coconut oil revolution.

Eugene 52:40 Yes.

Trevor Noah 52:41 I tried it. It was terrible.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 52:42 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 52:43 It just blocks your pores.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 52:44 Yeah, fat.

Trevor Noah 52:45 And you smell like coconut the whole day, and you just get like really hungry.

Eugene 52:49 All day long.

Trevor Noah 52:49 All day long.

Eugene 52:50 When you walk in the sun or...?

Trevor Noah 52:51 Anywhere. I, you, I would just smell coconut everywhere I was going.

Eugene 52:55 You smell sauteed.

Trevor Noah 52:56 Yeah.

Eugene 52:57 Sauteed. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 52:57 And then I was just like, it was terrible for, like, managing my hunger.

Eugene 53:01 I'm al- I'm always fascinated about-

Trevor Noah 53:02 Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 53:03 Well, let me, let me explain the seed oil thing though.

Trevor Noah 53:05 Yes, seed oils, sorry.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 53:05 Just 'cause they do take... I mean, there is a... And this is something that happens actually a lot in, in social media narratives with nutrition, they'll take a s- a, a mechanism that's true-

Trevor Noah 53:14 Okay, mm-hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 53:14 ... and then they will expand upon that to where we don't have any evidence to suggest that's true.

Trevor Noah 53:20 Wow.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 53:20 So for example, seed oils have some, they're high in alpha-linolenic acid and, and, um, linole- oleic acid. And so, uh, that's, those are polyunsaturated fatty acids. And so that converts to something called arachidonic acid, and when we look at in a lab setting, that increases inflammation, right? It can inf-

Trevor Noah 53:39 Okay, okay

Dr. Jessica Knurick 53:39 ... increase the inflammatory cascade. And that, that is true when that, when that conversion happens. But when we look, first of all, that conversion doesn't happen very much at all. And second of all, when we look at it in a human model, 'cause humans are complex, our bodies are complex, and not everything always... Like we might hypothesize because this happened in the lab, it's gonna happen when we look at, like, humans living their lives.

Trevor Noah 54:00 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 54:00 Um, and oftentimes that's not the case because, again, we're complex. And so when we look at human models and we look at people who have been living and consuming seed oils, we just don't see that same effect. So we don't see higher inflammation. We don't see negative impacts. We actually see that people who are eating more of these linole- uh, these, um, polyunsaturated fatty acids, um, have better health outcomes.

Trevor Noah 54:22 Wow.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 54:22 And so another, but another truth is that seed oils, because they're highly processed, because they're cheap, and because they are, um, relatively flavorless compared to something like canola oil, um, they're used in a lot of these prepackaged ultra-processed foods. And so we are consuming a lot of these prepackaged ultra-processed foods.

Trevor Noah 54:41 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 54:41 And so we're over-consuming seed oils-

Trevor Noah 54:43 Okay

Dr. Jessica Knurick 54:43 ... which can be prob- if you over consume anything, including watermelon, it can be [laughs] problematic for your health, right? And so those truths exist, but what, what does not exist is this idea that seed oils are toxic, and why that's so harmful. You know, my mother-in-law, she's from Romania, and she pretty much exclusively cooks in se- quote, unquote, "seed oils," right?

Trevor Noah 55:02 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 55:02 Like vegetable oil, but she's like sauteing vegetables and their foods and things. And so if you're telling someone who's using that 'cause it's an affordable, accessible oil that it's toxic, but they're eating a pretty nutrient-dense diet and just using that oil, that's very harmful and problematic. 'Cause, because what are you saying? That they have to go and buy like the regenerate, like regenerative olive oil from like the farm with the grazing cows?

Trevor Noah 55:24 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 55:25 Like, that's just not sustainable for people.

Trevor Noah 55:27 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 55:27 So we have to, we have to, like, live in reality and, and understand that, like, science does not say that these oils are harmful or toxic, and, um, they're accessible and affordable for people, which is I think an important

Dr. Jessica Knurick 55:38 distinction.

Trevor Noah 55:38 But I think to Eugene's point- A- and I mean, we've seen this. It, it's not even a conspiracy. We've seen how we are also, like you're fighting with, uh, you know, uh, misinformation.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 55:50 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 55:50 But we also forget that there's a company in the background somewhere, there's a food lobby somewhere that's trying to push something-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 55:56 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 55:56 ... to push something else out, to push something in. Like, look at how many years fat was bad.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 56:01 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 56:01 And then we found out, remember in that investigation where the, like the sugar lobby worked really well-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 56:06 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 56:06 ... to vilify fat and carbohydrates.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 56:08 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 56:09 And then only now are we going, "Oh, damn, sugar, you know." We didn't realize that sugar was, copious amounts of sugar. 'Cause again, nothing is just bad.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 56:17 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 56:18 But sugar was the thing we should've been looking for in excessive amounts. But they, "It's fat-free."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 56:22 You're right.

Trevor Noah 56:22 If it was fat-free, it was good for you.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 56:24 Mm-hmm, yeah.

Trevor Noah 56:24 And you're like, "I can eat as much of it as I want 'cause it's fat-free, so I will not get fat." You know?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 56:28 Yeah. I mean, it's important. A- a- and I think you're, you're drawing an important distinction based on what, what are corporations going to do? First of all, the media is gonna sensationalize, like, science findings, right?

Trevor Noah 56:38 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 56:38 A study, they're gonna sens- sensationalize the findings. But then corporations, they're gonna take any little thing and try to spin it as the, like, the best thing for them, right? So they're, and they'll use it in marketing. So if, you know, if there's a study that comes out that shows something good about blueberries, right, like, a product that has blueberries is gonna put that on their label-

Trevor Noah 56:57 Yeah, they will

Dr. Jessica Knurick 56:57 ... and be like, "This is the best thing that's ever happened," right?

Trevor Noah 57:00 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 57:00 And so, so the problem is we need to be better at regulating those marketing claims. And, and so there are, there are s- quite a few claims that are regulated. Um, I think they just added, like, healthy last year. But there's quite a few that aren't, so they, they can put it on the label and just kind of like as a marketing tool for-

Trevor Noah 57:17 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 57:17 ... for the company.

Trevor Noah 57:18 There's also a bun-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 57:19 You know, protein. Protein is that.

Trevor Noah 57:20 Oh yeah, proteins having-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 57:21 They're like, if you just hit just a, the, enough protein-

Trevor Noah 57:24 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 57:24 ... they can be like, "High in protein," and that's like a marketing thing for these companies.

Trevor Noah 57:27 I think organic for a long time was one of those words they-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 57:29 Oh, they nailed that one. Yeah, organic is very regulated, though. So, like, you have to meet organic standards.

Trevor Noah 57:34 What are organic stand- let's say in meat or let's say in fruit and vegetables.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 57:39 Yeah, I don't, I do not know exactly what the organic standards are. But I just know that y- like, you have to use s- specific pesticides in, like, fruits and vegetables, for example. You can't use non-organic pesticides. You use organic pesticides. Um, and there's, the, I don't think it can be GMO. I think there's a couple of other, like, categorizations that-

Trevor Noah 57:56 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 57:56 ... but I'm, but I'm not sure exactly what it is.

Trevor Noah 57:58 Can I, can I just say something-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 57:59 Yeah

Trevor Noah 57:59 ... that I've noticed, which I really enjoy about-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 58:01 Mm

Trevor Noah 58:01 ... talking to experts-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 58:02 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 58:02 ... is you say, "I don't know" a lot.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 58:05 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 58:06 Uh, I don't know if you know-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 58:07 Yeah

Trevor Noah 58:07 ... I don't know if you've noticed this.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 58:07 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 58:08 This is, and this is, it's so refreshing because we live in a world where most people we interact with on this level are-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 58:12 Yeah

Trevor Noah 58:12 ... online.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 58:13 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 58:13 Right? And so we've been sold this idea that certainty about everything means that the person is an expert.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 58:19 Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 58:20 It, you know, there's expert, expert, expert, expert. And what's started to give me a, a little more solace and, and even, you know, to your point, like a

Trevor Noah 58:29 understanding what a red flag is, is experts will tell you where their expertise ends. So you've said it, you know, we've had a, an, a, um, a neuroscientist on the podcast. We... And they'll go-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 58:41 Hmm

Trevor Noah 58:41 ... "Uh, actually, I don't know because that part I don't, I think this 'cause I know that part of it, but I don't know about this completely." And I wonder if that's also something-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 58:51 Yeah

Trevor Noah 58:51 ... we should look at as a, as a red flag-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 58:53 Red flag, mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 58:53 ... is if the person is all-knowing about everything all the time, something's fishy.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 58:59 Yeah, I think that is a good, good use of red flags on social media. Yeah, if somebody is, like, a- appearing to be a s- particularly, like, if they say they're a doctor and then they don't put their credentials in the actual, like, profile-

Trevor Noah 59:12 Oh, yeah, okay

Dr. Jessica Knurick 59:12 ... so they'll call themselves Dr. So-and-So, but there'll be no credentials, um, usually I have found that they are practicing outside of their scope of practice.

Trevor Noah 59:20 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 59:20 They're just... You know, you'll look at their page and they're an expert in nutrition and an expert in brain science and an expert in this and that. And so, um, that is a good thing to, I think, to look at.

Trevor Noah 59:28 Yeah, like, I've always wondered, how does somebody who has, is just, let's say they're, they're a doctor of whatever, is, medical doctor or they've got a doctorate so they can say doctor.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 59:39 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 59:39 How do they know about, like, 5G and Wi-Fi? I'm always, uh, 'cause I go, uh, aren't these two things separate?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 59:46 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 59:47 And again, maybe I'm wrong, but I, I don't know that in medical school you're learning about r- the frequencies and radio waves and r- you, you, do you know what I mean? But I, but I, like, how do you deal with those types of claims? Do you, do you then pass it off to somebody? Do you, you know, like, what do you, what do you do with that when somebody says to you, um, "Oh, uh, Dr. Jessica, this is, this thing here is also, does this cause that?" What do you say to them in, in that instance? Do you go, "Well, I just don't know. Move on to someone else"? Or have you, like, formed, like, a little team of experts who you can pass it on to?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:00:16 I have, yeah. So if somebody asks me a question that's just outside my scope of practice, they, they do that quite often with, like, um, like, in, uh, beauty toxins.

Trevor Noah 1:00:24 Okay, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:00:25 So, like, you know, the clean beauty movement.

Trevor Noah 1:00:27 Yes.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:00:27 And that's just not my area. I, they ask me, like, "What about this ingredient in lotion?" I have absolutely no idea. So I have, like, cosmetic chemists that I'll refer people to.

Trevor Noah 1:00:34 Oh, I love that.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:00:35 Yeah. So, so that, it's helpful to have, like, a little network of people who are outside your area.

Trevor Noah 1:00:40 Oh.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:00:40 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:00:40 Almost like a Avengers.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:00:42 Yeah. [laughs]

Eugene 1:00:42 Avengers of health.

Trevor Noah 1:00:43 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:00:43 The science communication Avengers.

Trevor Noah 1:00:45 It actually is.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:00:46 [laughs] Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:00:46 That's, like, I mean, that's fundamentally what you need.

Eugene 1:00:48 And you're the Batman.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:00:49 Okay.

Trevor Noah 1:00:49 Well, Batman's not in, in, um, in, um-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:00:52 Oh, yeah, no

Trevor Noah 1:00:52 ... it's DC and Marvel.

Eugene 1:00:53 No, no inclusion, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:00:54 No, no, I'm just saying, you know-

Eugene 1:00:56 I'm not, I'm not coming anymore.

Trevor Noah 1:00:57 You can't come, Batman, sorry. Like, legally, Marvel owns-

Eugene 1:01:00 I like, I like how in his fantasy world you can have a male voice-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:01:04 [laughs]

Eugene 1:01:04 ... and drop your kids and go, "I need to go online."

Trevor Noah 1:01:06 Yeah.

Eugene 1:01:06 But you can't be in another comic strip.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:01:09 Yeah, he has, like, these boundaries-

Eugene 1:01:11 You know, I'm just-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:01:11 ... that don't necessarily- [laughs]

Eugene 1:01:12 ... a man. I draw the line at her crossing over, but her being a man-

Trevor Noah 1:01:14 No

Eugene 1:01:14 ... you can go now.

Trevor Noah 1:01:15 I'm, listen, listen, this is legal.

Eugene 1:01:17 Oh.

Trevor Noah 1:01:17 This is what this is, okay?

Eugene 1:01:18 Oh.

Trevor Noah 1:01:19 Yes. I do not want to be sued by Marvel or by DC for saying that somebody is in another universe, okay?

Eugene 1:01:26 You know what I love about you?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:01:27 Makes sense.

Eugene 1:01:27 You are always witty. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:01:32 [laughs] Um, I, I wanted to ask you why you, why you chose the style that you chose for debunking things.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:01:38 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:01:38 Um, b- and maybe it ties into what you were saying about the scientific community and academia in general.

Eugene 1:01:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:01:45 It's always been very, you know, it's like, "Eugene, do your glasses." It's been very that.

Eugene 1:01:50 Next.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:01:50 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:01:51 Yeah. You know what I mean?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:01:51 Yeah. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:01:52 It's that thing. And you use humor.

Eugene 1:01:56 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:01:57 You, you're really engaging. You, you take it seriously, but you do not take yourself too seriously.

Eugene 1:02:02 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:02:04 Why did, why did you choose that approach, you know? Because you could have come in and just been like, "I'm an expert. Here's what it is." But, but you, you didn't. You've, you've gone for something that isn't necessarily associated with academia and with, like, rigorous studies.

Eugene 1:02:16 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:02:16 Why that choice?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:02:18 Um, well, thank you. I, I don't know. I [laughs] I think it's just naturally who I am. Um, so it's probably just, like, lucky me that I chose something that, that I kind of approach it that way. This is a natural thing. Um, I also think that I have recognized that we have this... We're living in this moment that people don't necessarily trust experts.

Trevor Noah 1:02:38 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:02:38 And they don't necessarily trust scientists as much as they did before. I... And it's not as bad as social media might have you believe, because-

Trevor Noah 1:02:45 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:02:45 ... I just presented on some data. I was speaking at the Mayo Clinic a few weeks ago, and I presented data on, like, the trustworthiness of different professions and, and scientists and medical professionals are actually still some of the most trustworthy people when you compare them to, you know, other professions.

Trevor Noah 1:02:58 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:02:59 Um, and so I don't know that the problem is as bad as we see it, but it's certainly declining. And so I think it's really important to, like, humanize, like, experts and, um, and scientists in particular, 'cause that's my space. Um, I think, you know, we take a lot... We should take some blame for the fact that people don't necessarily trust or are losing trust in science, and that's because, you know, scientists for a long time, and even still today, we write in a language that's not accessible to people.

Trevor Noah 1:03:25 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:03:25 We speak in a language that's not accessible to people.

Trevor Noah 1:03:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:03:27 Like your glasses, right? [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:03:29 [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:03:30 Yeah, and we, we, we publish our work behind paywalls that are not accessible-

Trevor Noah 1:03:34 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:03:34 ... to people, where you have to pay, like, $85 to read a single research article. And so I think it's, it's... That's been a problem, and so we need to kind of, like, put a face to people who are, who are doing the research. And I... You know, I think that science communication is actually becoming more of an important field-

Trevor Noah 1:03:50 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:03:50 ... so that we can bridge that gap between, like, the researchers in the lab and then, like, what people actually need to know so that we're able to fill some of that gap, too. Um, but I think, like, what, uh, to your point of, like, humanizing, like, being human, right-

Trevor Noah 1:04:03 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:04:03 ... and, like, inserting, you know, a personality, um, I, I just think that that helps to build trust, too, right?

Trevor Noah 1:04:09 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:04:09 So, like, when you can... You have to, like, know the person to then learn from the person, and so, so that's part of it.

Trevor Noah 1:04:14 I also like the fact

Trevor Noah 1:04:15 that you're giving it to people for free. You know? Th- this is something that we don't focus enough on in, in society-

Eugene 1:04:21 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:04:21 ... and it's that you have to pay for the truth-

Eugene 1:04:24 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:04:24 ... but lies are free.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:04:25 Hm.

Trevor Noah 1:04:25 You know what I mean?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:04:26 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:04:26 Like, there's no website that has lies that you have to pay for. Search anything online, search about any story, any news article, any health article, you name it.

Eugene 1:04:37 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:04:38 The arti- the news, the websites and the pages that are fake-

Eugene 1:04:42 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:04:43 ... are free.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:04:44 You're right.

Eugene 1:04:44 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:04:44 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:04:44 And then when it's a real thing, they'll be like, "Would you like to pay for the truth?"

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:04:47 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:04:47 And I'm like, "Yeah, but if it's so important, why..." And don't get me wrong, I under-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:04:50 Like The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal. Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:04:51 ... exactly. And, and don't get me wrong, I understand that there are-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:04:54 And they have to pay their people.

Trevor Noah 1:04:55 Yeah, they have to pay people, et cetera. But it is sad that we, we live in a world... And, and that's why I also appreciate that, because this is not your job, and yet you are giving people education that they wouldn't otherwise be able to access if they weren't in the institutions that you're in.

Eugene 1:05:10 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:05:11 Yeah, yeah. I mean, y- you're, you're bringing up a point that's kind of, um... It- it's g- it's, like, nuanced because we have to also figure out a way to make it sustainable for people to do.

Trevor Noah 1:05:21 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:05:21 Like, like science communicators and things like that. And so, you know, we're, there still has to be conversation about how to do that. But yeah, I, I think that it's really important and, and that's why... I mean, I have a Substack that it, I never put things behind paywalls and that's why. Like, I want people to have access to, to the information, um, because I think that that's really important and we, they shouldn't... You know, we, you don't want to put things behind paywalls if you really want people to understand them. But I also understand the other side, that people have to make a living, you know?

Trevor Noah 1:05:47 Yeah. I feel like in a perfect world-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:05:48 So it's like a nuance

Trevor Noah 1:05:48 ... that, that sort of be like a fund maybe or a-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:05:50 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:05:52 Like, in a perfect world-

Eugene 1:05:53 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:05:53 ... every university-

Eugene 1:05:54 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:05:54 ... would be, and I know many do, by the way, don't get me wrong, in, you know, certain courses, but every university should be giving away a portion of their education for free. You get what I'm saying?

Eugene 1:06:03 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:06:03 So that education is not only limited to the people who can pay for it.

Eugene 1:06:06 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:06:06 Well, I guess that's what scholarships are.

Trevor Noah 1:06:08 Yeah, but I'm saying even beyond that. I say, like, on-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:06:10 Okay

Trevor Noah 1:06:10 ... I mean, just, just meeting-

Eugene 1:06:11 Publish the information

Trevor Noah 1:06:12 ... yeah, p- meet the people where they are. I know-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:06:13 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:06:14 ... Harvard does it. There's a few of them where you'll be shocked at how many courses you can do at a high-level university without ever going there.

Eugene 1:06:21 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:06:21 But nobody knows about it-

Eugene 1:06:22 Exactly

Trevor Noah 1:06:23 ... is, is the weird thing. You, you don't know that if you go to that page and you click on it, there are free-

Eugene 1:06:28 You can find the information, yes

Trevor Noah 1:06:28 ... courses you can do on a whole host of things that won't make you an expert-

Eugene 1:06:31 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:06:32 ... but at least will give you, you know, a basic level of knowledge that welcomes you into the game without you paying anything.

Eugene 1:06:37 Yeah. A few things I've learned this week is the human body is a very complicated machine, and I think we're still trying to figure it out. Scientists, I think they're still trying to figure out how the human body works. And another part, thanks to you, is that nutrition can be a complicated subject if it's led by the wrong information, right? So if people know what to eat and what not to eat, people will be healthier. But I also feel like society has made certain body type look unhealthy and certain body types look healthy.

Trevor Noah 1:07:03 Hm.

Eugene 1:07:03 So if you're super skinny, we assume that you are healthy. If you're not super skinny, we assume that you are unhealthy. And I think that psychologically, as a nation, as a country, as a people, we need to do a lot in just convincing people that body types might be different, uh, appetites might be different, likes might be different, but the healthiness is not determined by what someone looks like, right?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:07:23 Yeah. It's much more determined by the behaviors that that person is engaging in.

Eugene 1:07:27 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:07:27 Right? And so you're, you're absolutely right. Like, we can all... We- just, just naturally, we all have different body types.

Eugene 1:07:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:07:33 And what's interesting is that's kind of, like, flipped in terms of, like, the public perception of it. It used to be-

Trevor Noah 1:07:37 It really is amazing, yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:07:38 Yeah. I mean, and you guys probably know this even better, but it used to be if you had a bit more weight, that was looked at as a healthful thing-

Eugene 1:07:44 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:07:44 ... versus, versus the opposite.

Trevor Noah 1:07:46 The flip for me was just coming from- South Africa to the US- Mm-hmm ... when, I mean, you remember when we were growing up- Mm-hmm ... there were as many if not more jokes about a person being skinny. Mm-hmm. Like nicknames, Sticks Manzanza. You know what I mean? Yeah. All those things. Sticky Malingi. Sticky Malingi. All of... You know what I mean? Wishbone. There you go. Matchstick. Eugene w- wrote- Candlestick ... wrote most of them. [laughs] Cane.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:08:07 Are they really this funny?

Trevor Noah 1:08:08 We... No, they really are. No, they really are. There are tons, tons and tons and tons. Bezerimpa.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:08:11 Oh.

Trevor Noah 1:08:12 And, like, your parents would even roast you as well. Yes. Yes. If you were, like, skinny- Yes ... they would even be... And then people would roast your family, and they'd ro- And you could- Yeah. And then you... And, and look, I understood it over time, but you'd come to the US, and it would be the opposite.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:08:25 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:08:26 And then I realized that no matter where you were, the insult was generally coming from how far you were from society's perception of-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:08:36 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:08:36 Mm ... not just the looks-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:08:38 Wow. Great. Wow

Trevor Noah 1:08:38 ... but wealth. Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:08:39 Tough.

Trevor Noah 1:08:39 So in Africa- Wow ... if you were skinny, it's because you were poor. Yes. So the further from skinny-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:08:44 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:08:44 ... you could be, the wealthier you were.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:08:46 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:08:46 But then in the United States, the, the fatter you were, the further you were from wealth. And so now you could-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:08:52 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:08:52 ... you could pay to look... It, it meant that you could get healthy food and vegetables. It meant that you didn't eat takeout every single night of the week. And, and going back to what Eugene said, I, I love that one point you said about the differences. How do we figure out what a serving size actually means? 'Cause, like, yeah, it's, it's... People say, like, serves two, one serving. W- what i- what is a serve-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:09:13 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:09:13 ... when you think of it as a nutritionist, like, what, what is or isn't a serving, and how do we think of should I eat one serving if it says serves one? Is that one for me, or is the one different for everyone? How does that work?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:09:25 Yeah, so serving sizes, I mean, there's standard serving sizes, and, like, you can use your palm. Like, for example, protein might be, like, the palm of your hand. Um, and these are e-

Trevor Noah 1:09:32 Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, let's slow that down. Protein is the palm of your ha- What do you mean?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:09:35 I mean, that's just kind of, like, a good marker. So, like-

Trevor Noah 1:09:37 Like a good rule of thumb?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:09:38 Yeah, a good rule of thumb.

Trevor Noah 1:09:39 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:09:39 Like the amount that the palm of your hand-

Trevor Noah 1:09:40 The amount of protein I should eat is the palm of my hand?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:09:42 For one serving, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:09:43 Wait, wait, but how high does the protein go? Ah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:09:46 [laughs] Yeah, that's a good question.

Trevor Noah 1:09:47 'Cause that's what's always-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:09:48 Don't answer.

Trevor Noah 1:09:48 No, but that's what's always confused me.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:09:49 You answer.

Trevor Noah 1:09:49 I'll go to... [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:09:53 You answer.

Trevor Noah 1:09:53 You, 'cause you go to-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:09:54 Answer

Trevor Noah 1:09:54 ... you go to a steak restaurant, how h-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:09:57 These are good questions.

Trevor Noah 1:09:58 Yeah, but you- Yeah, you get- How many times has this happened? Fire.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:10:00 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:10:00 You go to a place, and you go, "Can I get a steak?" Yes. Right? If you get, like, a skirt steak-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:10:06 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:10:06 ... like, it's a little thin, a New York strip steak or something. Yeah, yeah. A strip steak is... They, they'll give you, like, a thin- Strip ... right. And it, it fills your plate. Right. And then sometimes you go, "Can I get a different cut?" And the meat's, like, this high, but it's just... And I'm like, "That- Like a filet, yes ... that fits in the palm of my hand."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:10:19 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:10:20 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:10:20 So the palm of your hand is not a perfect measurement. It's just kinda like a general, but, uh, there, there are actual serving sizes.

Trevor Noah 1:10:26 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:10:26 So, like, meat might be three to four ounces, right? So if you go to a, a restaurant, and you get an eight-ounce steak-

Trevor Noah 1:10:32 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:10:32 ... that's gonna be like-

Trevor Noah 1:10:32 Okay, now we-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:10:33 ... two servings-

Trevor Noah 1:10:34 Got it

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:10:34 ... of steak. Two to, two to two and a half servings of steak. And so, um, if you're looking at, like, a label, it will say what the serving size is. So, like, for cereal, for example, it'll be, like, three-fourths of a cup. And then you, like, pour it in your bowl, and it's, like, three times three-fourths of a cup, right? So-

Trevor Noah 1:10:49 Right

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:10:49 ... so that's gonna be three servings. So then a- again, this is kind of like, "This is my Nutrition 101 [laughs] course."

Trevor Noah 1:10:55 [laughs] I love it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:10:56 So kind of-

Trevor Noah 1:10:56 That's what everyone needs.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:10:57 If it says 100 calories-

Trevor Noah 1:10:59 Yeah. Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:10:59 ... for three-fourths of a cup, but you pour yourself three servings, uh, which was kind of like a standard cereal bowl, right?

Trevor Noah 1:11:05 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:11:05 Um, you're actually getting 300 calories, not just 100 calories from, from that amount of food.

Trevor Noah 1:11:10 Wow.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:11:10 You have to, like, triple it 'cause you're having triple the servings, um, on the label. So, so that's kind of how you would think about it.

Trevor Noah 1:11:16 Is that part of the problem in America? Mm. Like, I, I know this isn't the catchall, but when people travel, everyone will comment on how serving sizes change. You know? Yeah. They'll go... Uh, like, a cup of anything in America-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:11:28 Oh, yeah

Trevor Noah 1:11:28 ... is massive. Like, the movies is the best example. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:11:30 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:11:31 When you go to the movies in America, and you get a large soda- Mm ... if you came back with that large soda to South Africa, like, the whole village is drinking with you.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:11:39 Yeah. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:11:40 Do you know what I'm saying? Like- Except for Sticky Malingi. [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:11:43 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:11:44 She's, she's napping with a serving of meat. [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:11:48 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:11:48 But, like, like, like, you know, those, those-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:11:51 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:11:51 ... are also strange signifiers- Yeah ... that throw people off. 'Cause they go... I- I've seen people say this, and I don't even mean it in a mean way. They go- Yeah ... "I barely eat anything. I had one bowl of granola, and I had w- like, one cup of coffee." Yes. "Uh, and then I had one this." "I barely eat." Yes. "And I had one, and I had one sandwich, and I had one burger, and I-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:12:08 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:12:08 ... and I can't lose the weight." And, and I, I feel like you would be the perfect person to explain to them how the, like, the, the size of the thing makes a difference. 'Cause you just broke it down with cereal.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:12:18 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:12:19 And when you said, "Just pour three-fourths of a cup," I went, "I wouldn't... That would..." If you came to my house, and you were like... You saw me pour a cup of... ha- three-quarters of a cup- I'd be the first person-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:12:31 And it's, like, no two

Trevor Noah 1:12:32 ... to tell you, "I don't know what you're doing." Exactly. Yeah. I've never done that. Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:12:35 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:12:35 Like, you, you fill the bowl. Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:12:36 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:12:36 The bowl must be full.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:12:37 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:12:38 This is the... So would you tell people to get smaller bowls?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:12:39 That's like when people pour themselves, like, wine at home in their glass.

Trevor Noah 1:12:43 [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:12:43 It's not actually a serving of wine.

Trevor Noah 1:12:45 That's not a serving?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:12:47 But-

Trevor Noah 1:12:47 No, but you see now how the wine gets-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:12:48 It's more like two c- like, two servings of wine, right?

Trevor Noah 1:12:51 But here's my-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:12:51 In your home glass

Trevor Noah 1:12:52 ... here's my thing. The disconnection that people have with their food, do you find that it has psychologically effect? 'Cause when I was growing up, my mom, when she would be making dinner, it would take an hour- Yeah ... for her to get everything ready. And it would get you anticipate the meal. And she would be like, "You can't eat a sandwich. I'm already cooking. Gonna ruin your appetite." Do you feel like now people... Uh, or you have people who go, "W- if I cook, then I can't eat the food. I don't feel like eating the food anymore." Yeah, could have been ta- tasting, eating, doing the whole thing. Yes. Do you feel like now people have disconnected from the process of making meals that stops them from enjoying meals versus what you said to me the other day, that the anticipation for a meal nowadays is gone? Yeah. People are watching TV. Well, l- actually, how... Is, is the, is that in your field? Mm-hmm. D- discussing how somebody should even think of consuming a meal? Mm. Like, does it change what the meal does to them, or... Y- you know, to sort of what Eugene is saying is like- Is it detrimental to us to not be part of the food being prepared? And I don't mean like detrimental de- detrimental-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:13:50 Yeah, yeah

Trevor Noah 1:13:50 ... but are there benefits?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:13:51 Yeah, to being kind of disconnected from the-

Trevor Noah 1:13:53 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:13:53 ... from the whole food system-

Trevor Noah 1:13:54 Yes

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:13:54 ... essentially. Yeah. Um, th- so there's some good data like with children, for example. If you integrate children into the, like, whole process of-

Trevor Noah 1:14:02 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:14:02 ... cooking the meal. I, I even have a garden for my, for my son. My son, my five-year-old son and I started a garden because he gets so excited to, like, grow-

Trevor Noah 1:14:10 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:14:10 ... like, the vegetables and, like, he gets... He always goes... Unfortunately, only one strawberry the whole season grew this year. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:14:17 [laughs] One-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:14:17 But he was out there, like, every day looking for a strawberry.

Trevor Noah 1:14:19 [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:14:19 It was really sad. Actually, to the point that literally a couple weeks ago he took strawberries from the, um, refrigerator and put it into the garden-

Trevor Noah 1:14:27 No

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:14:27 ... and then came and got us-

Trevor Noah 1:14:28 Aw

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:14:28 ... and was like, "Look." [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:14:29 Aw, that's adorable.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:14:31 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:14:31 I like that he was trying to, like, manage your disappointment.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:14:33 I know, I know. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:14:34 He was like, he was sitting that night and he's like, "Ugh, my poor parents. They don't understand agriculture."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:14:39 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:14:40 "They really are having a tough time with disappointment. Let me, let me, let me, let me make their day."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:14:45 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:14:45 "I'm just gonna go and make their day."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:14:47 I don't know why the strawberries didn't grow. Maybe somebody out there can tell me. But, um, anyway, it, it gets him excited, right?

Trevor Noah 1:14:52 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:14:52 To, like, prepare the food. And then if he helps me in the kitchen, like, cook the food-

Trevor Noah 1:14:56 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:14:56 ... it gets him more excited and he's more willing to try the food in that sense. And I think that that's, like, a psychology that is, uh, obviously true for, like, all of us, right? If we have more of a investment in the whole preparation process, it can be helpful to us. Um, but, but again, that... There's a lot of barriers to being able to do that.

Trevor Noah 1:15:12 Right.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:15:12 So, like, there's time barriers-

Trevor Noah 1:15:14 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:15:14 ... and there's obviously money barriers and access barriers, um, that, that all kind of play into our individual choices. [upbeat music]

Trevor Noah 1:15:21 Don't press anything. We've got more What Now? after this. [upbeat music] So if somebody's coming to your feed and they, they, they're looking for the information, what are the things that they should look to you for and what are the things that they shouldn't look to you for? Like, when you go, like, this is, like, what I, I will distinctly help you with, it's, it's, you know, this is the column.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:15:47 Yeah. So I, I, um, t- focus a lot on, uh, the systems in our country that-

Trevor Noah 1:15:52 Okay

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:15:52 ... that set us up for success for evidence-based recommendations. So if we're trying to, like, de- if we're try... Well, first of all, nutrition science, right?

Trevor Noah 1:16:00 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:16:00 So all of the nutrition stuff. But if we're trying to prevent lifestyle-related chronic disease-

Trevor Noah 1:16:05 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:16:05 ... um, there's many things that go into that. And so there's, there's nutrition, there's exercise, um, there's sleep, and there's stress reduction and, you know, there's, there's, uh, accessibility of healthcare access, so you can go to preventive visits. Um, and so looking at, you know, we all make individual choices within a system.

Trevor Noah 1:16:22 Right.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:16:22 And so what are the systems in, in this country, um, that either set people up for success or set people up for failure?

Trevor Noah 1:16:30 Right.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:16:30 And what policies have been enacted that have led to these systems-

Trevor Noah 1:16:34 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:16:34 ... versus what could we be enacting that could improve those systems? So, um-

Trevor Noah 1:16:38 Hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:16:38 ... I kind of, like, look, like, to look at the, like, whole health system, um, and, and public health in general, but, um, so certainly, like, nutrition science and, and then looking at holistically what can we do to prevent chronic disease.

Trevor Noah 1:16:49 If you were giving somebody just, like, simple tips, like, for all of us to go away. Like, I know now no more half watermelon. This is, I've... You didn't say it to me, but I felt it and I appreciate that.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:17:03 Palm of your hand.

Trevor Noah 1:17:03 Palm of my hand is a shortcut-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:17:04 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:17:04 ... but o- obviously understanding it's still within okay. But, but what are some of the tips that you would give somebody, um... Let, let's, let's, let's break it down actually.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:17:13 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:17:13 You know, because there's so many different types of people, so-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:17:15 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:17:15 ... let's start with a mom.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:17:16 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:17:16 Let's say there's a mom out there who goes, "You know, uh, I, I really want to get out there and I want to make sure that my kid is getting the right food in the right ways. Do I get them a, a bag of f- candy? Do I give them a treat? Do I give them chocolate? How bad is this for them? W- what am I trying to feed them?" What are some of the tips that you would give just a mom in that situation because they don't want their kid getting cancer or type 2 diabetes or any of these things?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:17:43 Yeah, so let me, um, let me, like, step back and just give kind of, like, a holistic view of-

Trevor Noah 1:17:47 Right. Oh, love that

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:17:48 ... what we've been-

Trevor Noah 1:17:49 Okay, yes

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:17:49 ... what we've been recommending really for decades.

Trevor Noah 1:17:51 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:17:51 'Cause I think there's a lot of confusion in nutrition, um, because of social media-

Trevor Noah 1:17:55 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:17:55 ... about, like, what to eat, what not to eat, what to do. Um, but, like, in the nutrition science research, like, it's been pretty consistent for decades.

Trevor Noah 1:18:02 Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:18:02 And so overall, like, if you meet these things, you're gonna be far and away better than, you know, most people. Um, so making sure that m- you're getting fruits and vegetables and a variety of these whole foods as much as possible. And again, there's gonna be issues in terms of barriers for people, but this is what the evidence shows. So getting a range of fruits and vegetables, getting a range of proteins, a variety of proteins. That can be different meats-

Trevor Noah 1:18:26 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:18:26 ... that can be beans, tofu, like, all of these different plant-based and, and animal-based proteins.

Trevor Noah 1:18:31 I'm gonna interrupt you in a few places. Forgive me. Just so, just so I can clarify on some of these.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:18:35 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:18:35 Um, does it change what packaging those things come in?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:18:40 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:18:40 So if somebody goes, "I'm gonna get beans," but they're canned, and, "I'm going to get tofu, but it's in this packaging, and I'm going to get..." Does it change at all, or, or is that still a good foundation to, to go with?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:18:52 Yeah, so those things are gonna be, y- you know, those are gonna be on the margins, right? So maybe it'll change a little bit, but, like, the, the overall, the... I would pref- much prefer you to eat canned beans than no beans, for example.

Trevor Noah 1:19:02 Okay, got it. Okay, got it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:19:03 Right? So, like, that's the, it's, this is so much more important in terms of, like, what you're including-

Trevor Noah 1:19:08 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:19:08 ... versus, like, should it be canned, or should I prepare it from the bag in a, in an Instant Pot or whatever it is.

Trevor Noah 1:19:12 All right, got it. Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:19:13 Um, and then, you know, if, i- if... 'Cause canned beans are incredibly a- accessible-

Trevor Noah 1:19:17 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:19:17 ... and convenient for people.

Trevor Noah 1:19:19 Right, yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:19:19 And so if that's gonna get you to eat more beans, which is gonna increase your fiber intake, that's what I'm gonna go with.

Trevor Noah 1:19:23 Okay, gotcha.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:19:24 Right? I myself use a lot of canned beans 'cause it's so much easier. I just rinse them off. Um, but it, it-

Trevor Noah 1:19:29 Wait, why do you rinse them off?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:19:31 Um, just to rinse, like, the sodium off, 'cause there's a lot of sodium in the cans for pre- preservation.

Trevor Noah 1:19:34 Oh, there's a, there's a trick.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:19:35 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:19:35 See?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:19:36 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:19:36 There's a trick.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:19:36 Yeah, you just-

Trevor Noah 1:19:36 Okay. I, I like that. Okay

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:19:37 ... stick them in a colander and rinse them off.

Trevor Noah 1:19:39 Oh, I've seen people doing that with, uh, garbanzo beans, right?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:19:42 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:19:42 Uh, chickpeas.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:19:43 Like, yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:19:44 Oh.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:19:44 They rinse them off and then they...

Trevor Noah 1:19:46 No, but you see, this is, this is what I mean is like-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:19:47 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:19:47 ... these types of things-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:19:48 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:19:49 ... because y- we live in... And, I mean, I don't need to tell you this, but we live in a world where sometimes the tips are given to people-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:19:55 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:19:56 ... in a way that, I, I love what you just said. It's given to people in a way where they can't access it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:20:00 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:20:00 So it's like, "Don't eat the stuff in the can."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:20:02 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:20:02 And then like, well, you've already-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:20:03 Exactly

Trevor Noah 1:20:03 ... excluded me-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:20:03 Yes

Trevor Noah 1:20:03 ... because I can't afford the other things.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:20:05 Exactly.

Trevor Noah 1:20:05 Or it's not convenient, I don't have the time. But I love that little t- tip that you've included there. Get the canned beans.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:20:10 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:20:11 Just rinse them off, 'cause the bean is great. It's all the stuff that's around the bean that may be not as good for you.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:20:17 Yeah, just reducing the sodium content, exactly.

Trevor Noah 1:20:18 Okay, cool.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:20:19 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:20:19 All right. So, okay, got it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:20:20 Yep. And that's the same with, like, frozen, frozen vegetables-

Trevor Noah 1:20:23 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:20:23 ... and frozen fruits. I mean, those are wonderful options, and they're more accessible-

Trevor Noah 1:20:26 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:20:26 ... and they'll last longer.

Trevor Noah 1:20:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:20:28 And so if that's what can get you to eat more vegetables, like, choose the frozen options, right? And actually, sometimes frozen can be more nutrient dense, 'cause they flash freeze it.

Trevor Noah 1:20:36 Oh, good. Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:20:36 Yeah, than, than fresh. But yeah, so, um, get a variety of fruits and vegetables, get a variety of proteins, make most of your grains whole grains or a, a good amount because you're getting more fiber. I mean, all of this is kind of like trying to increase fiber. Um-

Trevor Noah 1:20:48 What, what is, what is a whole grain? And forgive me, I, I know I'm gonna sound like an idiot, 'cause I am.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:20:53 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:20:53 But also because I think a lot of people don't know what these things mean.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:20:56 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:20:56 So what is a whole grain?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:20:57 A whole grain just has more, um, fiber in it. So, like, um, uh, it's, it's versus a refined grain.

Trevor Noah 1:21:03 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:21:03 So a, a refined grain will go through, like, the refine, like re- refining it

Trevor Noah 1:21:06 But give me an example of what is, what is a-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:21:08 Like white rice versus brown rice, for example.

Trevor Noah 1:21:11 Oh, okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:21:11 And that's not saying not to eat white rice, 'cause I myself like r- white rice. It's just that you wanna implement some whole grains.

Trevor Noah 1:21:16 Got it. Got it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:21:17 So some things like whole wheat products-

Trevor Noah 1:21:19 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:21:19 ... instead of refined wheat.

Trevor Noah 1:21:20 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:21:20 So that'd be like a whole wheat bread instead of a white bread, for example.

Trevor Noah 1:21:23 Okay, got it. Got it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:21:24 That's kind of the best example. Um, and, and again, that's because it's gonna get you more vitamins, more nutrients, and more fiber essentially.

Trevor Noah 1:21:30 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:21:31 Um, and then, you know, reduce your intake of low nutrient ultra-processed foods. And, and again, th- there's variability there, but really when we're thinking about it, and it, that doesn't mean eliminate your intake, right? It just, right now, 70% of our food environment are these n- ultra-processed foods.

Trevor Noah 1:21:47 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:21:48 And-

Trevor Noah 1:21:48 70

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:21:49 ... 70, 'cause again, our, our food, our food environment was really built for corporate profits-

Trevor Noah 1:21:53 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:21:53 ... not, not necessarily for our health at kind of every stage-

Trevor Noah 1:21:55 Wow

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:21:55 ... of the food, food cycle. But, um, i- decreasing your intake of those, um, and making sure that you're getting adequate fiber, adequate protein. Uh, and, and that's not really too much of an issue for us. Um, and adequate fruits and vegetables. And that, those things, again, they've been consistent forever, right?

Trevor Noah 1:22:11 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:22:11 Those, those dietary patterns. Um, and then, you know, in terms of there's o- there's other things, like in terms of exercise, making sure you meet your exercise needs.

Trevor Noah 1:22:18 Right.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:22:18 But for food, that's kind of like holistically what we're looking at. Now, if I'm working with a mom, that's when it becomes, okay, she has, like, a time barrier. She has, um, you know, i- if, if she doesn't have an accessibility barrier, then that's great. And so what, what I would say is start your child really young. Um, get them eating a variety of foods young so that they, they kind of are doing that. And then they might go through kind of like a picky stage, and that's okay. Don't be, like, too nervous about that. But just keep offering, right? Keep offering different things. Make the food fun. There's a lot of, like, psychology there, and some of my colleagues who really work in this, like, child space are really great at this.

Trevor Noah 1:22:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:22:53 And they can like, you know, the, the broccoli and you can dip it in the ranch and then show that it has snow on it and then-

Trevor Noah 1:22:58 Oh, fun

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:22:58 ... that gets them to, like, eat it more.

Trevor Noah 1:23:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:23:00 Um-

Trevor Noah 1:23:00 Yeah, my mom used to throw carrots at my head and be like, "Missiles, duck. Missiles, duck."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:23:04 [laughs] Yeah, that's one way to do it.

Trevor Noah 1:23:06 Move, move, move, move. Get down, soldier. I have PTSD, but great eyesight. [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:23:16 So maybe don't throw, um, baby carrots at somebody's head. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:23:19 [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:23:21 That, that recommendation-

Trevor Noah 1:23:22 Let's-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:23:22 ... did not come from me.

Trevor Noah 1:23:23 Let's, let's not try and get-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:23:26 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:23:27 Let's stay in this moment.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:23:29 Oh, oh, you know you love me, Eugene.

Trevor Noah 1:23:32 I do.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:23:33 You know you love me.

Trevor Noah 1:23:33 [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:23:34 Okay, so make the food fun. I actually like that. Make the food fun.

Trevor Noah 1:23:37 Yeah. Yeah, and then just, again, variety, like getting your kids variety.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:23:41 Um-

Trevor Noah 1:23:41 Um, and then don't worry too much about, like, you know, if you have a strong foundation of food-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:23:46 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:23:46 ... and you're getting all of these foods, there's room for, like, these, these snack foods as well.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:23:51 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:23:51 I mean, kids are gonna have these foods when they're at parties and even at your house. There's room for them.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:23:55 Ah.

Trevor Noah 1:23:56 There's been a lot of heat around baby food and food formula, and that's, like, been one of the, the main battlegrounds, and I know you, you've, you've discussed this. What is your advice around that?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:24:07 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:24:07 Like, you know, to moms who don't know. They go, "I, I've heard that baby food is bad, and I've heard that formula is bad."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:24:14 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:24:14 "And I, I, I don't, I don't know what to do at this point." What's your advice to them?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:24:18 Um, a lot of it, again, w- it's a vulnerable population that is easily targeted on social media with viral, sensationalist content, sensationalized content. So I think u- understanding that and s- realizing that is, like, the first thing. Um, infant formula is safe, and it's healthful for babies who, who need it. Um, there's, there's, you know, lots of... Infant formula's actually some of the coolest science.

Trevor Noah 1:24:40 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:24:40 Like, I, I love infant formula science, 'cause, like, how amazing that we've been able to, as best as we can, replicate breast milk so that, like-

Trevor Noah 1:24:48 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:24:48 ... infants can have this food source and survive.

Trevor Noah 1:24:51 Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:24:51 Whereas they used to not survive before this existed.

Trevor Noah 1:24:54 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:24:55 Right? And so I think it's, it's very cool where we've come, and I, I mean, um, so, so infant formula is safe, and it's healthful for, for infants. Um, and you know, I, I'm a proponent of breastfeeding. I breastfed both of my children, and I think that that's wonderful, and I think it's wonderful that there is a safe option for-

Trevor Noah 1:25:14 Right. Right

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:25:14 ... for infants who are not breastfed.

Trevor Noah 1:25:15 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:25:16 Um, so yeah, infant formula, you know, some of the biggest things that I see are, um, like the fear-mongering out there about infant formula-

Trevor Noah 1:25:22 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:25:22 ... are about, um, the sugar source, like having corn syrup in the infant formula, and then, um, seed oils in the infant formula. Um, and they'll compare them to the EU, and w- I've done a lot of videos on this. Um, every single infant formula all around the world contains, quote-unquote, "seed oils".

Trevor Noah 1:25:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:25:39 And that's because of their polyunsaturated fatty acid content. And so cow's milk, which is the basis of formula-

Trevor Noah 1:25:45 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:25:45 ... um, is a lot lower in polyunsaturated fat than, uh, breast milk, than human breast milk.

Trevor Noah 1:25:50 Oh, okay. Got it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:25:50 And so what happens is you have to have cow's milk, and then you can add in those polyunsaturated fatty acids-

Trevor Noah 1:25:56 Hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:25:56 ... with something like a seed oil to more closely mimic breast milk. Um, and so that's why they're used. Again, the science is so cool, like, that they were able to figure-

Eugene 1:26:03 It actually is

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:26:04 ... that out.

Eugene 1:26:04 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:26:04 And like, yeah, be able to do that so that they're getting all of their... And, and this is really important for brain development in infants, right?

Eugene 1:26:09 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:26:09 So they need those polyunsaturated fatty acids. Um, and then corn, corn syrup is the other one, which is a sugar source. And what I would say is that-

Eugene 1:26:17 That one's been fixed, though. Trump took the corn syrup out of Coke and it's healthy now.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:26:20 Yeah, so that's high-fructose corn syrup-

Eugene 1:26:22 Yeah, he fixed it

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:26:22 ... which is different than corn syrup. [laughs]

Eugene 1:26:23 No, no, no, they're the same.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:26:24 [laughs]

Eugene 1:26:25 It's all fixed. It's all fixed. It's all fixed now.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:26:28 No, so, um-

Eugene 1:26:29 [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:26:30 [laughs]

Eugene 1:26:30 This was a big thing.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:26:31 Yeah, it was.

Eugene 1:26:32 This was huge.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:26:32 I, I-

Eugene 1:26:33 Like, Trump was like, he's like, "I'm getting rid of it. No more corn syrup. Only sugar, like Mexican Coke, but I don't want Mexicans, just the Coke." I added that last part. He didn't say that.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:26:43 Yeah.

Eugene 1:26:43 But w- I think he thought it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:26:45 And you saw what actually happened, right?

Eugene 1:26:47 What happened? No, what actually happened?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:26:48 What actually happened is Coke used it as a marketing tool, and instead of getting rid of the high-fructose corn syrup, they just created one more offering that has cane sugar in their-

Eugene 1:26:58 But, but-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:26:59 ... panel of offerings

Eugene 1:26:59 ... okay, but is, is cane- is the cane sugar one healthier for people?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:02 No. No.

Eugene 1:27:05 Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:06 No.

Eugene 1:27:06 I've always heard that high-fructose-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:08 Yes

Eugene 1:27:08 ... corn syrup-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:09 Yes

Eugene 1:27:09 ... is killing people.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:11 I know you have, yeah.

Eugene 1:27:12 And c- cane sugar, 'cause I know what a cane, what a cane thing, like when cane-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:17 A cane thing

Eugene 1:27:17 ... a cane thing, you know.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:19 The reason why-

Eugene 1:27:19 Sugarcane

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:20 ... black people end up in Jamaica is a cane thing.

Eugene 1:27:22 I apologize.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:23 Okay, sure.

Eugene 1:27:23 Sugarcane. Sugarcane.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:25 Okay. Yes, yes.

Eugene 1:27:26 I've seen sugarcane, I've eaten sugarcane.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:28 Yeah.

Eugene 1:27:28 And then I see the sugarcane becoming sugar.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:29 Yes, yes.

Eugene 1:27:29 I've seen it happen.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:30 Yes.

Eugene 1:27:31 The high-fructose corn syrup, it doesn't seem, to your point, readily available.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:35 Ah.

Eugene 1:27:35 So I'm like, how, how is the high fructose... It-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:37 Actually looks processed.

Eugene 1:27:39 Yeah, it-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:39 It sounds

Eugene 1:27:40 ... it, it, it doesn't, you can't even, like, make it

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:41 ... versus squeezing a sugarcane, yes.

Eugene 1:27:43 So how, how is that possible?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:44 Okay.

Eugene 1:27:44 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:44 So high-fructose corn syrup comes from corn, right? That's... It's, it's just sugar from corn.

Eugene 1:27:48 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:48 So we use corn to make the sugar. Where- whereas cane sugar comes from a sugar cane, you use that to make the sugar.

Eugene 1:27:53 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:54 Whereas, you know, sugar beet, which is very popular in Europe-

Eugene 1:27:57 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:27:57 ... 'cause they grow sugar beet really well, that's what they use to make their sugar, right?

Eugene 1:28:01 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:28:01 So all of these are sources of sugar. So high-fructose corn syrup is called high fructose because it's much higher than corn syrup. So corn syrup is 100% glucose. So anything higher than that in terms of fructose level is called high-fructose corn syrup.

Eugene 1:28:15 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:28:15 Let me, let me get a little bit more in the weeds here.

Eugene 1:28:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:28:17 So high-fructose corn syrup, both... All of these sugars are, um, a combination of glucose and fructose.

Eugene 1:28:24 Okay. Got it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:28:24 So the... Glucose and fructose combined, 50%/50%, makes sugar, what we know of as table sugar.

Eugene 1:28:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:28:30 Right? So that's 50% glucose, 50% fructose. High-fructose corn syrup is anywhere from 42% fructose to 55% fructose.

Eugene 1:28:38 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:28:39 So they are metabolically, when we look at the data, the same. They're both f- glucose and fructose. They have no difference in terms of, like, their metabolic impact on a human level when we're looking at human physiology. They're, they're both sugar sources. They're both made up of glucose and fructose, just in a bit of a different varying amount. Um, and the, the difference in terms of health is just nonexistent in the literature.

Eugene 1:29:03 Hmm. Oh.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:29:03 And so, again, I... And I wanna explain why we use high-fructose corn syrup in this country-

Eugene 1:29:07 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:29:08 ... or why a lot of corporations do. Because we live in a capitalist economy where corporations are trying to maximize profit. Uh, you know, and not, not necessarily to keep you unhealthy, they just don't care if you're unhealthy, right? [laughs] Like-

Eugene 1:29:20 Yeah, like, yeah. They're like, "Oh, they just don't care."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:29:22 Yeah.

Eugene 1:29:23 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:29:23 So, so-

Eugene 1:29:23 They're not coming after you. They don't care about you. [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:29:25 And I think that that's part of, like, this conspiratorial idea that everyone's trying to keep people sick, but it's actually not. It's just the logical conclusion of the system-

Eugene 1:29:33 Ah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:29:33 ... that we've built, which is to-

Eugene 1:29:34 Yeah

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:29:34 ... prioritize profit at the expense of everything else, right?

Eugene 1:29:37 Yep. Yep. Yep.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:29:37 If your main value is profit, you're gonna do things like buy the cheapest ingredients possible.

Eugene 1:29:43 Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:29:43 In the United States, through policy, we have made corn a very cheap co- commodity crop.

Eugene 1:29:49 Right.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:29:50 And, and we do that through subsidies for, for commodities, and we grow corn really well here. We've also done it by putting, um, quotas on the amount of cane sugar that can come into our country-

Eugene 1:29:59 Wow

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:29:59 ... because we're trying to protect our corn farmers.

Eugene 1:30:02 Corn industry.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:30:02 And so we grow a ton of corn here, whereas it's, it's the exact opposite in, in Europe. They grow a lot of sugar beet there, and they have done things like put quotas. Up until, like, 2017, they put quotas on how much high-fructose corn syrup could be cre- ooh, could be made there.

Eugene 1:30:15 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:30:16 So because of that, manufacturers are gonna use the cheaper sugar, right? And so they use a lot of sugar beets or cane... Like, um, sugar over there, whereas we get our sugar sources from corn a lot.

Eugene 1:30:25 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:30:26 And so these manufacturers that are making these ultra-processed foods are trying to get the cheapest sugar product available, and that's... If, if cane sugar was the cheapest sugar product available-

Eugene 1:30:37 Definitely choose it

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:30:37 ... they would choose cane sugar.

Eugene 1:30:38 Ah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:30:38 Right? But they choose high-fructose corn syrup 'cause it's cheap, 'cause we've made it cheap. Um, and so that's what's in food. And so what the problem is with high-fructose corn syrup is we are over-consuming high-fructose corn syrup, 'cause we're over-consuming sugar. If you over-consume any kind of added sugar, it's a problem, and that's why-

Eugene 1:30:53 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:30:53 ... you know, the science-based recommendation is to limit added sugars to less than 10% of your overall total calories. Um, and over half of uh, the country does not do that. They eat too much sugar.

Eugene 1:31:03 Wait. There's a, there's a list of ingredients, basic ingredients that, uh, people always interact with or always have in their homes that they might not be sure if they're good or bad, including myself. So I'm gonna do a quick fire of maybe a few, then you tell me yay or nay, and why the yay, right?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:31:19 Okay.

Eugene 1:31:19 So salt, is it a yay or nay?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:31:23 You need salt. Your body needs salt to survive. It's too much salt that's the problem, which is probably gonna be the, my answer to all of these, but we can see.

Eugene 1:31:30 So good, good salt is... So now there's a battle between Himalayan salt or just normal salt. Which one is good? Which one is bad?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:31:38 Uh, they're, they're... Neither is... They're, they're both fine.

Eugene 1:31:41 Marketing.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:31:42 Yeah.

Eugene 1:31:43 Sugar, good or bad?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:31:45 Again, sugar, I mean, there's sugar in fruit, and fruit is a wonderful food, right? So, um, th- because you're also getting all of those nutrients. And so sugar is not necessarily bad. It's the overconsumption of sugar that's bad. And particularly, like, added sugar like a soda, right? 'Cause you're just c- drinking s- sugar with no nutrients-

Eugene 1:32:03 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:32:03 ... at all. So, so that's kind of what you wanna stay away from or limit, um, versus just thinking sugar itself is bad.

Eugene 1:32:09 White sugar or brown sugar?

Trevor Noah 1:32:11 Which one is the best?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:32:11 They're the same.

Trevor Noah 1:32:12 Oh, I always thought brown sugar was way healthier. I thought it was like brown rice. I would eat it all the time and I'd be like, "Mom, look, I'm being healthy."

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:32:19 No.

Trevor Noah 1:32:19 And then she'd throw carrots at my head.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:32:21 [laughs] It's not any healthier.

Trevor Noah 1:32:23 Wow.

Eugene 1:32:23 Okay. Oil. Vegetable oil versus...

Trevor Noah 1:32:27 Beef tallow.

Eugene 1:32:28 Beef tallow.

Trevor Noah 1:32:29 Oil.

Eugene 1:32:29 Yes.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:32:29 Versus olive oil maybe?

Trevor Noah 1:32:30 Versus olive oil.

Eugene 1:32:30 Versus olive oil. Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:32:31 Yeah. Um, so this one gets a little bit nuanced. There's actually some great data to show, um, like, health benefits of olive oil itself.

Eugene 1:32:39 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:32:39 And, and a lot of that probably comes from it, it's mostly monounsaturated fats, and it also... Olive oil usually comes with nutrients as well.

Eugene 1:32:47 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:32:47 So if you're looking at the nutrient composition. Um, versus, like, vegetable oils, like you just mentioned, are, are very refined.

Eugene 1:32:53 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:32:53 So they're not gonna come with any of those nutrients.

Eugene 1:32:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:32:56 So if you, if you want, like, a, an honest answer just looking at the nutrient profile, olive oil wins in the nutrient profile. But when you look at, like, what that means from a health perspective for people to consume it, um, your overall dietary quality matters much more than the type of oil that you're using. Um, and then beef tallow is a saturated fat, and for some people, um, the recommendation would be to limit saturated fats. People who are, you know, at risk for cardiovascular disease, for example.

Eugene 1:33:25 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:33:25 So that one's gonna depend a little bit on who you are and what the rest of your dietary makeup looks like. But the best epidemiological evidence we have in nutrition would suggest that you wanna limit those saturated fats, um, and, and use, uh, poly and monounsaturated fats, which are more like olive oils.

Trevor Noah 1:33:41 This is a shortcut that I've, I heard-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:33:43 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:33:43 ... and I've been using, but I, I, I would love to know if it was true.

Eugene 1:33:45 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:33:46 When you're talking about the different types of fats-

Eugene 1:33:48 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:33:48 ... some- I, I read or saw once someone said the way it looks outside your body is the way it'll turn inside your body, and I, I did- It sounded great, so I believed it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:33:58 [laughs] Yeah, I mean-

Trevor Noah 1:33:59 No, because what I meant was, like, let's say you have a stew or any type of meat that's cooked-

Eugene 1:34:04 Right

Trevor Noah 1:34:04 ... you know, like and the fat will... And if you leave it for a while-

Eugene 1:34:06 The fat hardens

Trevor Noah 1:34:06 ... you see the fat harden.

Eugene 1:34:08 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:34:08 It rise, but then it, like, hardens.

Eugene 1:34:09 Yes.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:34:10 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:34:10 Right? Whereas, like, with, like you're saying, olive oil, it doesn't harden at any point. And then I remember reading this thing and- But I don't know if that's true or not. Is, is that an approximation for it or is, is this just, like, a, a shortcut that isn't really helping people?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:34:22 Yeah, I get where that's coming from because, um, saturated fat is what's hard at room temperature. So, um, and p- and, uh, unsaturated fats are not hard at room temperature.

Eugene 1:34:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:34:31 So if you think of, like, bacon. If you're making bacon and then you, like, pour the grease into-

Eugene 1:34:35 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:34:35 ... a can, it, it... That'll harden once it, once it, like, cools down and gets to room temperature, and that's because it's a saturated fat. Whereas, like, a vegetable oil will just sit in your closet and it's obviously oil the whole time.

Trevor Noah 1:34:45 Right. Right.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:34:46 So yeah. Um, the idea is, is that saturated fats, uh, have been known to contribute to, um, like, atherosclerosis, which is, like, plaque buildup in your arteries.

Trevor Noah 1:34:55 Yes. Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:34:56 And so that's probably where that comes from. So there's probably saying, like, "Oh, because it's hard here, it's gonna contribute to plaque buildup." And it's an oversimplification for sure.

Trevor Noah 1:35:04 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:35:04 Um, but, but it's, it, it... I understand the rule of thumb.

Trevor Noah 1:35:07 Okay, cool.

Eugene 1:35:08 And finally, the big one. Bread, good or bad?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:35:11 Bread?

Eugene 1:35:11 Yes.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:35:13 Well, uh, I mean, I eat bread every day. So-

Eugene 1:35:16 You?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:35:16 Yeah. I love bread. [laughs]

Eugene 1:35:20 You?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:35:20 I mean, look at, like, France and Italy. I mean, these people eat bread every day.

Eugene 1:35:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:35:25 Right? So it's not bread that's bad, it's, it's bread, bread... It's o- overconsumption of ultra-processed carbohydrates and things like that. But, um, bread itself is, is a wonderful food source that's eaten all over the world. Um, so it's not necessarily bad. No, I think b- bread got a really bad rap, like, in the United States, I think, like, in the '90s and 2000s, and then it's kind of, like, persisted, um, as being some, like, uniquely bad food.

Eugene 1:35:50 Oh.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:35:50 But I wouldn't... No, I would not say that it's bad.

Trevor Noah 1:35:53 The, um, milk. Milk is, is one that always comes up. Which milk is good milk? Which milk is bad milk? Is milk even good? Should we be drinking milk? And then should it be pasteurized or should it only be raw?

Eugene 1:36:06 Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:36:07 Okay, so, um, milk comes from a... We're, we're generally talking about cow's milk-

Trevor Noah 1:36:11 Yes. Yes

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:36:11 ... because that's what most commonly-

Eugene 1:36:12 Absolutely. Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:36:13 Wait, wait.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:36:13 There's, like, goat's milk and things like that.

Eugene 1:36:15 Hey, you never know with this guy, hey.

Trevor Noah 1:36:16 I would say cow, I would say cow milk. I would say cow milk.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:36:18 Yeah.

Eugene 1:36:18 'Cause you heard how he was interested in baby formula.

Trevor Noah 1:36:20 I was saying cow milk.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:36:22 Yeah. [laughs]

Eugene 1:36:22 Okay. Sharp.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:36:23 So cow milk.

Trevor Noah 1:36:23 Cow milk.

Eugene 1:36:24 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:36:24 Yeah. Um, again, like, good for people is, like, so subjective.

Eugene 1:36:29 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:36:29 And so we, um... And, and, like, we have to, like, figure out what that means for somebody. But, um, milk is, is a very nutrient-dense food for particularly, like, young kids, right?

Eugene 1:36:40 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:36:40 So, so it's often recommended, um, because it's just a way to get them calories and nutrients that are, that are great. I will say that I think the dairy industry has really impacted our recommendations of milk-

Eugene 1:36:51 Okay

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:36:51 ... um, 'cause it's, it doesn't have any unique nutrients that you can't get elsewhere.

Eugene 1:36:55 Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:36:55 So it's not like you have to have milk in your diet.

Eugene 1:36:58 For the calcium.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:36:59 I, I don't d- personally drink milk 'cause I just-

Eugene 1:37:01 Okay

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:37:01 ... haven't in years. But, um, it... And I can get all of the other, like, calcium and vitamin D and riboflavin, all, all of those nutrients elsewhere. Um, and the protein and fat. But again, it's, it's not a bad thing to drink milk. It's, it's just a food that you can either drink or not drink and get the nutrients from or not, and it depends what the rest of your diet looks like. Um, in terms of pasteurized versus raw, which is q- you know, talked about a lot, um, there's not great evidence that there's, you know, unique benefits to raw milk. I know that a lot of people say that. I, I haven't seen good data to suggest that.

Eugene 1:37:33 Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:37:33 But let's be really clear about what pasteurization is. Pasteurization, 'cause I think people might think it's, like, adding chemicals to milk. It's just heating milk. It's this wonderful public health advancement that we figured out, Louis Pasteur figured out h- hundred plus years ago, um, that if you just heat milk to 15 degree, or f- uh, for 15... 165 degrees for 15 seconds and then rapidly cool it, it will eliminate all of the harmful pathogens that used to get people really sick or kill them.

Eugene 1:38:00 Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:38:00 And so it, it, like, revolutionized the milk industry 'cause it was like, "Oh, people can actually drink this without getting hurt now." And so that's what pasteurization is. So it's just, it's just a significant way to reduce, uh, foodborne illness and pathogen risk.

Trevor Noah 1:38:14 Okay. And then, um-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:38:15 So highly recommend pasteurization. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:38:17 Highly recommend.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:38:18 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:38:18 Got it. Um- Vitamin K. Vitamin K.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:38:22 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:38:22 There's a vitamin K? That- that's like a big thing. Is it silent or is it-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:38:25 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:38:27 Vitamin K? Sorry. No, no, that was amazing, actually. I'd like to apologize for that.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:38:33 That was good, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:38:33 Those are the moments- Oh, yeah? Those are the moments where I fall in love with you again. [laughs]

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:38:36 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:38:36 I wasn't, I wasn't against you there. I was mesmerized. That's all I was. Yeah. [laughs] You see how traumatized I am. Do you see how quickly I apologized? [laughs] No, really, it was beautiful.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:38:47 It was good.

Trevor Noah 1:38:48 Um, a- a- again, that's something that you see in, like, the MAHA Movement is, like- Mm-hmm ... vitamin K, no vitamin K, where do you get it, where do you not? Like, when it comes to those individual vitamins, how should we even think of them?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:38:59 Are there people saying not to get vitamin K?

Trevor Noah 1:39:01 It- it's, like, a, a ... Well, there was a, there's a movement online where they're just like, "What is it doing to kids' mortality? And w-" Ryan, do you remember the v-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:39:08 Oh, are you thinking of the vitamin K shot?

Trevor Noah 1:39:11 Oh, was it? Yeah, it was a, it was a shot. Yes, you're right.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:39:13 Yeah. 'Cause vitamin K is an essential vitamin that we all need. It's a fat-soluble vitamin. Um, so I think, yeah, there's some ... There, yes, there's, there are some videos about the vitamin K shot. So the vitamin K shot is given to newborns.

Trevor Noah 1:39:24 Right. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:39:24 Um, and, and it's to prevent vitamin K deficiency bleeding. And so, um, w- y- newborns don't have adequate vitamin K like we do.

Trevor Noah 1:39:32 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:39:32 So our bodies, our, our microbiomes make a bit of vitamin K, and then we get it from our diet as well.

Trevor Noah 1:39:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:39:38 Um, and, and what it does is it, it, it, it's, it plays a essential role in the clotting cascade. So it allows your blood to clot, um, if there's a bleed so you don't bleed out.

Trevor Noah 1:39:47 Oh.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:39:47 But infants don't, um ... Like, newborns don't have that ability because we don't, they don't have adequate vitamin K. And so for years and years, and, I mean, decades, forever, um, you know, there, there was no understanding when an infant would bleed-

Trevor Noah 1:40:00 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:40:00 ... um, they, you know, infants would just die, and they wouldn't know why.

Trevor Noah 1:40:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:40:05 'Cause they would have a brain bleed. A lot of them are brain bleeds. And, um, what they found is that it's because they're deficient in vitamin K up until about six months of age, when they can start consuming food themselves, u- um, like, uh, solids and real food.

Trevor Noah 1:40:18 And that's when they-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:40:18 And then, and their microbiomes-

Trevor Noah 1:40:20 ... are producing K

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:40:20 ... start to, start, start to make it. And so yeah, for the first six months of life, they're deficient in vitamin K, and so they're at risk for these, this vitamin K deficiency bleeding. And what was found, that if you just give, um, infants a shot of vitamin K at birth, it completely prevents, I mean-

Trevor Noah 1:40:34 Hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:40:34 ... pretty much completely prevents vitamin K deficiency bleeding.

Trevor Noah 1:40:36 That's amazing.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:40:36 And so it's given to all babies because we can't, we d- there's no way to know which babies would have these bleeds.

Trevor Noah 1:40:42 Got it. Got it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:40:42 Right?

Trevor Noah 1:40:43 Okay.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:40:43 And so in order to prevent that, you give a vitamin K shot to these babies. The vi- this, the ... I mean, this shot has been given all around the world since the 1960s now, so we have a lot of data-

Trevor Noah 1:40:52 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:40:52 ... to, to look at its safety, and it's, um, it's one of ... I mean, it's i- incredibly safe shot, uh, for newborn babies.

Trevor Noah 1:41:00 Supplements is the last thing I'll ask you about, because that has just become-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:41:04 Geez

Trevor Noah 1:41:04 ... I mean, you, you have to. You gotta wake up and are you taking your da-da-da, your collagen? Are you taking your- Lin's Mei ... Lin's Mei? Are you taking your this? Are you taking your- What did you go, what did you give me that look when I said Lin's Mei? [laughs] Are you taking your-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:41:15 That was funny.

Trevor Noah 1:41:16 [laughs] But it's just like everything has become a supplement.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:41:18 Your adaptogens.

Trevor Noah 1:41:19 I meant- Yeah, your adaptogens and your ... And, and it's like, are you not taking them? And this is what-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:41:23 Hmm

Trevor Noah 1:41:23 ... there's free radicals. You, you have to stop or invite the free radicals. I, I never know which one it is, but there's an industry that's making a lot of money telling people that they're not getting the nutrients or the supplements that they need.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:41:38 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:41:38 Mm. And ironically, by the way, a lot of the people around RFK-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:41:43 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:41:44 ... sell these supplements, and now he's- No way ... yeah, and he's proposing changing a lot of the laws to accom- To accommodate them ... to accommodate their supplements to be sold in places where they weren't allowed or they weren't allowed in the way that they're trying to ... What- whatever it might be, but- Hmm ... but I, I see a lot of people going, "Oh, I, I should, should I be taking these supplements? Should I, should I not be taking these supplements? What, what, what am I lacking? What amount of ..." What, what's your view on supplements as a nutritionist?

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:42:08 Yeah, so I think supplements are, um, an incredibly, uh, profitable area for a lot of people. So, uh, you know, you mentioned that a lot of people, like, within RFK's realm really sell supplements and, and that's true. I mean, the, the, the wellness industry is a m- multi-billion dollar, hundreds of billions of dollars industry. It's this huge, massive industry, and what you'll find is a lot of people who are selling supplements, um, will kind of play into this narrative, like, "You can't trust big pharma, and you can't trust traditional medicine-

Trevor Noah 1:42:36 Mm-hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:42:36 ... because they're out for money." And then they'll turn around and kind of, like, sell you all of these supplements that are, is also a very profitable, for money industry.

Trevor Noah 1:42:44 Mm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:42:44 Right? And so I, it's interesting that, like, wellness seems to kind of, like, fly under this radar as this altruistic thing, when really, I mean, the, the profit that these people ... The profit margins are huge on supplements. And so they're, they're making a lot of money by getting you to be like, "I don't trust pharma. I don't trust experts. I'm gonna only trust, like, these supplements." And I think it's really important for people to kind of identify that playbook that a lot of people do use.

Trevor Noah 1:43:06 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:43:06 Like, don't trust these industries th- which, by the way, pharmaceutical medications ... And there are problems with pharma, don't get me wrong. We can talk about those, but the pharmaceutical medications are highly regulated by the FDA. They have to go through multi-stage clinical trials-

Trevor Noah 1:43:19 Mm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:43:19 ... to make it to market, and they, and then, and then stage four, they're, they're assessing them when they're in the market, whereas supplements do not have to go through that rigorous process.

Trevor Noah 1:43:29 Yeah. Wow.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:43:29 Supplements actually have a long history that dates back to, um, heavy lobbying from the supplement industry and, um, politicians that w- were working with the supplement industry, um, not allowing the FDA to have that regulatory oversight that they s- that they wanted to have.

Trevor Noah 1:43:44 Hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:43:45 And so now supplements-

Trevor Noah 1:43:46 Hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:43:46 ... don't even have to show that they're effective, um, or safe before coming to market. And so we see that, I mean, a- and we, we see issues with supplements all the time. There's plenty of issues that c- um, and, and a lot of, uh, liver issues in people as well.

Trevor Noah 1:44:01 Wow.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:44:01 And so I think when you're thinking about supplements, I think it's important to understand that it's a very profitable market that people want less regulated than it already is.

Trevor Noah 1:44:09 Right.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:44:09 Right?

Trevor Noah 1:44:10 Right.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:44:10 Whereas, whereas ... And it's oftentimes the same people who are complaining about the regulation of food additives but then don't, don't ever mention the lack of regulation of supplements-

Trevor Noah 1:44:19 Hmm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:44:20 ... dietary supplements. And, um- So I, it, it's important to know that, it, the how profitable it is because that's the incentive for people to constantly tell you that you need these supplements. So I think there's a place for supplements. I'm not saying that all supplements aren't necessary. There's certainly, I mean, there's wonderful supplements like prenatal supplements and, and, uh, you know, vitamins and minerals that will, uh, directly, like, um, directly contribute to removing deficiencies from people.

Trevor Noah 1:44:46 Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:44:46 Um, but a lot of the supplements that are coming out that are, like, flashy and exciting, there's not strong data or evidence to suggest that they're effective, effective at all actually. Um, and so, you know, people can say they'll run, like, even some companies will do their own clinical trial, right? And that will be, like, the one trial, and it'll be this one study that they say, like, was super effective. And it's like nobody critiques that, but then, like, you're critiquing the pharmaceutical industry for-

Trevor Noah 1:45:12 Right

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:45:12 ... running clinical trials. It's just, it doesn't really make any sense. Um, and so, you know-

Trevor Noah 1:45:16 Hm

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:45:17 ... just, just being aware of that and being aware that a lot of supplements are just very expensive urine at the end of the day.

Trevor Noah 1:45:23 Wow.

Eugene 1:45:24 Uh, but yeah, sometimes, you know, I think you're gonna hit it dead, and you take it a step further.

Trevor Noah 1:45:29 Wow.

Eugene 1:45:30 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:45:30 That was-

Eugene 1:45:31 I love it

Trevor Noah 1:45:31 ... I love that. That's a, that's a great way to think of it.

Eugene 1:45:33 You've been around us for too long. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:45:36 [laughs] I really, really like that. Okay, so this has, this has been a nice... Thank you. This has been a, a great path-

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:45:42 We'll end on urine.

Trevor Noah 1:45:43 No, no, no. We always end on urine.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:45:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:45:45 Always.

Eugene 1:45:46 Sometimes.

Trevor Noah 1:45:46 Golden rule. Golden rule. Always end-

Eugene 1:45:50 Always

Trevor Noah 1:45:50 ... on urine. Always.

Eugene 1:45:52 Sometimes.

Trevor Noah 1:45:53 Because y- no, you've given us, you've given us, like, a perfect path to follow here, which is imperf- which I think makes it perfect.

Eugene 1:45:59 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:45:59 And it's like the f- the most important ones for me were if someone's selling you something and they're telling you about your health, just be a little skeptical.

Eugene 1:46:08 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:46:09 Right? Because if they're saying they've got the solution and, and they, you, they're gonna get money from you-

Eugene 1:46:12 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:46:12 ... be a little bit skeptical.

Eugene 1:46:14 If they start with fear first.

Trevor Noah 1:46:15 If they start with fear.

Eugene 1:46:16 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:46:16 That's the other one. You know what I mean? They're killing you. You're killing your kids. Are you hugging your children? You're killing them. Be skeptical.

Eugene 1:46:24 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:46:24 All right? Uh, another one that was very important was just try eat the foods, if I heard you correctly, it's like eat the foods the way they look essentially. So it's like the beans are the beans, and try and get the bread, the bread that is the least processed and trying, you know?

Eugene 1:46:38 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:46:39 So, right?

Eugene 1:46:40 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:46:40 Portion sizes.

Eugene 1:46:41 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:46:41 This was a good one as well.

Eugene 1:46:42 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:46:42 Uh, the sugar is sugar.

Eugene 1:46:44 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:46:45 Right? So you, you're not dodging it. The sugar is sugar. It just has a different accent. There's the European sugar. There was like sugar.

Eugene 1:46:50 Sugar.

Trevor Noah 1:46:51 And then this one's like sugar.

Eugene 1:46:52 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:46:53 You get it? But it's all sugar. Okay. And-

Eugene 1:46:55 And also if an expert is not surrounded by a community of other experts who-

Trevor Noah 1:46:58 Aha. That's a-

Eugene 1:46:59 ... take questions that they don't-

Trevor Noah 1:47:00 Yeah, I like that. I like that

Eugene 1:47:01 ... necessarily include happen.

Trevor Noah 1:47:01 If they block you-

Eugene 1:47:02 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:47:02 ... and they don't answer you, then you also know. That's, that's a, that's a shortcut. I like this.

Eugene 1:47:06 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:47:06 This is good.

Eugene 1:47:06 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:47:06 This is really good.

Eugene 1:47:07 Also, when you're growing strawberries in Utah.

Trevor Noah 1:47:10 Yeah, it might not work out for you.

Eugene 1:47:12 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:47:12 I would also just say, just to kind of like cap it, the fundamentals of health, um, we have really good strong data for them.

Trevor Noah 1:47:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:47:19 And, and they're pretty basic and pretty boring, and so that doesn't play well to social media algorithms.

Trevor Noah 1:47:23 Ah, I like that.

Eugene 1:47:23 Hm.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:47:23 And so social media algorithms really prioritize getting you confused and getting you to think there's a lot of, like, back and forth in the nutrition space or in the health space when, when really the fundamentals are, are, have been pretty consistent for decades.

Trevor Noah 1:47:36 Wow. So we need to start a TikTok page where we do all of these things, but just, like, advertising, like, apples and stuff.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:47:44 Yeah. [laughs]

Eugene 1:47:45 Yeah, there should be.

Trevor Noah 1:47:46 We just make it edgy.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:47:47 Sure, it'll grow.

Trevor Noah 1:47:47 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:47:48 It'll, it'll-

Trevor Noah 1:47:48 We just, like, we just go and we make edgy claims. Did you know they've been hiding apples from you? Do... Apples, do you know there's a secret ingredient in apples? It's g- and we just do this for everything. We could be the change that we want to see in the world.

Eugene 1:48:00 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:48:00 This is, this is fantastic.

Eugene 1:48:01 Definitely.

Trevor Noah 1:48:01 This has been really wonderful. Thank you.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:48:03 Thank you.

Trevor Noah 1:48:03 Thank you for taking the time with two idiots because I think there are so many in the world who feel like idiots in this space, and then because of that, they don't get to ask the questions that lead them to the answers, and I think that's what's made you so popular online and now in other spaces as well. So thank you for taking the time with us. I appreciate it.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:48:21 Thank you for having me.

Trevor Noah 1:48:22 Yeah.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:48:22 Appreciate the invite.

Trevor Noah 1:48:22 Don't forget to throw carrots at your kid's head. That's another thing we learned from me. [laughs] This was fun. Thank you so much.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:48:32 Thanks.

Eugene 1:48:34 Nice one.

Trevor Noah 1:48:34 I really had a great time.

Eugene 1:48:35 You're good.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:48:36 Oh, thank you.

Eugene 1:48:36 This was so much fun. This was fun.

Dr. Jessica Knurick 1:48:37 You guys are fun.

Eugene 1:48:39 Thank you. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:48:43 Thank you so much for watching the episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friend still. Let them suffer for a change. And don't forget to engage with us in the comments. Uh, if you wanna, uh, suggest a guest, maybe there's questions you want, maybe there's ideas that you have, you can chat to us. We will read through the comments, and we'll get into it. Either way, I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you for hanging out with us on What Now? And remember, we do this for you, so we would like to hear from you. Till next time. Thank you.