Dr. Steven Hassan: Are You in a Cult and Don’t Even Know It?

In a conversation that’s equal parts psychological thriller and masterclass in influence, Trevor and Eugene sit down with world-renowned cult expert Dr. Steven Hassan. Recruited into the Unification Church (aka the Moonies) as a college student, Hassan rose through its ranks before ultimately breaking free — an experience that reshaped his life’s work and inspired his bestselling book The Cult of Trump. From fringe groups to social media echo chambers, the trio unpack how and why ordinary people get swept into systems of extreme belief, the ways loyalty is engineered, and what separates healthy persuasion from manipulation. They also explore why the line between conviction and control is thinner and closer to home than we think. SurveyMonkey takes the fear out of asking—and the doubt out of deciding. If you haven't already.... Subscribe to the channel here: http://bit.ly/SubscribeTrevorNoah Or follow the podcast on your other favorite platforms... SiriusXM - Apple Podcasts - https://bit.ly/WhatNowOnApplePodcasts Spotify - https://bit.ly/WhatNowOnSpotify 00:00:03 - “Mankind Is Asleep” And Why That Hooks Us 00:02:13 - How Do You Even Say Hassan? 00:04:18 - How I Got Recruited Into The Moonies 00:07:39 - The Vietnam Draft And A Lucky Number 00:08:32 - From Hating Nixon To Fasting For Him 00:10:09 - Love Bombing On A College Campus 00:13:15 - The Van Ride To Tarrytown 00:15:30 - Bait And Switch: “Are You Close Minded?” 00:18:16 - The BITE Model Explained 00:20:27 - Misdirection And Mind Control Tactics 00:23:35 - How Cults Rebuild Your Identity 00:27:25 - Three Days That Changed Everything 00:29:50 - “The Messiah Might Be Coming” 00:32:08 - The Question That Rewires Your Brain 00:44:30 - Phobia Indoctrination And The Exorcist 00:46:12 - Why Singing Together Feels So Powerful 00:50:32 - From Skeptic To Inner Circle Leader 00:55:15 - Were The Moonies Linked To The CIA? 01:05:05 - Can You Be In An Online Cult? 01:07:10 - The Car Crash That Broke The Spell 01:08:45 - Chinese Communist Brainwashing Criteria 01:17:25 - Is Trump A Cult Or Just Politics? 01:36:31 - Why Desperation Fuels Authoritarianism 01:47:00 - The Danger Of Absolute Certainty

Trevor NoahhostDr. Steven HassanguestEugenehost

Feb 19, 20261h 50mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

105 min read · 21,122 words

0:00 – 0:03
Intro
1. TNTrevor Noah
  [upbeat music]
0:03 – 2:13
“Mankind Is Asleep” And Why That Hooks Us
1. TNTrevor Noah
  This is something that I'm picking up on already, is many of the things that a, that a cult might say to you are actually true.
2. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Mm.
3. TNTrevor Noah
  Do you get what I'm saying? I, I do think-
4. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  For sure
5. TNTrevor Noah
  ... mankind is asleep in that way. And, and we see it in what we eat, how we live, how we-
6. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  What we consume
7. TNTrevor Noah
  ... how we work, how we consume.
8. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Mm-hmm.
9. TNTrevor Noah
  There is a level of, like, asleep.
10. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Sleepwalking.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah. But I go like, "Yeah, no, this is true."
12. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Mm.
13. TNTrevor Noah
  We, we're not in touch with our bodies anymore.
14. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Mm.
15. TNTrevor Noah
  We're not in tune with our minds. We, you know, we, we, we some- we act mindlessly. We... You, I c- if someone said that to me-
16. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  People walking down the street.
17. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
18. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Like-
19. TNTrevor Noah
  You know how many times I see people walk into the street-
20. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Yeah
21. TNTrevor Noah
  ... on their phone?
22. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Yeah.
23. TNTrevor Noah
  And then a car has to swivel. I'm like, "Yeah, we are." So they would have me on that line. If they said, "Mankind is asleep," I'd be like, "Carry on."
24. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  But you're hitting on another universal point that's really im- demanding, uh, uh, underlining and, and with a red pencil, um, that, that the ideologies have truthful, important things-
25. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
26. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... in it, and they quote-
27. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
28. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... famous people who say really important things.
29. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm. Mm.
30. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So it's not just all BS, and that's p- also, as a therapist, that's what I try to do in helping my clients deconstruct how did they get hooked, what were the pieces that hooked them. And the technique, I'm jumping ahead, and I'll circle back to your earlier question, but the technique that's most effective is I empower my clients to understand Chinese Communist brainwashing, my model, et cetera. And the technique is this simple. I ask people to go back to that critical earlier moment when they were getting recruited or they were falling in love with someone who was a malignant narcissist that was gonna ruin their lives. If you knew then what you know now, what would you say and do differently?
2:13 – 4:18
How Do You Even Say Hassan?
1. TNTrevor Noah
  How do you pronounce your last name?
2. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Hassan.
3. TNTrevor Noah
  Hassan? Okay.
4. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Like Maggie Hassan, the senator.
5. TNTrevor Noah
  'Cause everyone has a different pronunciation of H-A-S-S-A-N.
6. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  S-
7. EUEugene
  Some say what, Hassan?
8. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So-
9. TNTrevor Noah
  Has- there's Hassan.
10. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So-
11. TNTrevor Noah
  Hassan, Hassan. Like they all-
12. EUEugene
  Hassan.
13. TNTrevor Noah
  [laughs] Now you're just adding ones.
14. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So Hassan-
15. TNTrevor Noah
  Hassan. [laughs]
16. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... was the cousin of Muhammad in the-
17. TNTrevor Noah
  The-
18. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... Muslim religion.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
20. EUEugene
  Right.
21. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
22. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  But my, the derivation of mine is Ellis Island.
23. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, okay, okay, okay.
24. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Uh, and my grandfather was a chazan.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  [laughs]
26. EUEugene
  A Jewish cousin.
27. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  A chazan.
28. TNTrevor Noah
  A chazen.
29. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Chazan.
30. EUEugene
  I was, I was, I was almost there with chazan.
4:18 – 7:39
How I Got Recruited Into The Moonies
1. TNTrevor Noah
  It's really, really great. So this was, wait, 19-
2. EUEugene
  76
3. TNTrevor Noah
  ... 70. So wait, how long were you in a cult for?
4. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I was recruited at Queens College the same month Patty Hearst was abducted by the Symbionese Liberation Army. Women flirted with me.
5. TNTrevor Noah
  [laughs]
6. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  My girlfriend had dumped me. And a few weeks later, I'm a right-wing fascist cult, but I didn't know what it was at all for months.
7. TNTrevor Noah
  I, I, I feel like that puts somebody in the perfect position. You know, um, I had a conversation with a monk about who can be a monk and how to become a monk and what, you know, a monk life is.
8. EUEugene
  Mm-hmm.
9. TNTrevor Noah
  And it was interesting. So, so we're in Bhutan, and they took us to, um... It is, is it, is it a monastery?
10. EUEugene
  Yeah.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  It is a monastery.
12. EUEugene
  Mm-hmm.
13. TNTrevor Noah
  Okay, just making sure. So we go to the monastery, and there's all the monks there and everything, and there's all these young boys who've come from different childhoods.
14. EUEugene
  Yeah.
15. TNTrevor Noah
  Some have almost been on a path of monkhood their whole lives. Others have come in because they, they're living troubled lives.
16. EUEugene
  Yes.
17. TNTrevor Noah
  And so somebody said, in the group we were in, they were like, "Oh, but, like, is, isn't that, you know, this guy, this kid's been through, like, this 20-year-old or 19-year-old, he's been through, he's done all these things, and, uh, uh, can he be a monk or..." And the monk said something really amazing. He said, "Oh, he's the best person to be a monk, because if you've been perfect your whole life and you're a monk, that's fine."
18. EUEugene
  It's normal.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  "But if you haven't been perfect your whole life, you've lived the furthest life from perfect, and then you become a monk-"
20. EUEugene
  Mm.
21. TNTrevor Noah
  He's like, "I feel like you're the best disciple/teacher-
22. EUEugene
  Mm
23. TNTrevor Noah
  ... because you've actually experienced the things that you're talking about."
24. EUEugene
  Yeah.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  And I feel like that's, that's you.
26. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Well, that's a piece of it, but I'd also say you have to have an ego before you can surrender your ego-
27. EUEugene
  Mm
28. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... if you're on a spiritual path.
29. EUEugene
  The ego death. That's beautiful.
30. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And a lot of people haven't figured out who they are, and to recruit them into something that's totalistic is not informed consent from my- Mental health professional point of view
7:39 – 8:32
The Vietnam Draft And A Lucky Number
1. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Nixon. My father-
2. TNTrevor Noah
  Wait, what do you mean? Sorry, what does that mean, "I got a good number"? What is that?
3. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I was in the last draft lottery, meaning they were, uh, picking numbers of your birthday to decide who was going-
4. TNTrevor Noah
  Was going
5. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... to fight in Vietnam.
6. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh.
7. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Mm-hmm.
8. TNTrevor Noah
  Damn, I didn't know it was like that.
9. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I'm, I'm aging myself, yes. So-
10. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, wow
11. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... so if you got 60 or less, you were going to Vietnam. I got, like, 300 out of, you know, 365.
12. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that-
13. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And so they weren't-
14. TNTrevor Noah
  ... and that was basically the reason you didn't go.
15. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Yeah.
16. TNTrevor Noah
  Wow.
17. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  But I hated Nixon, and then I get in The Moonies a few months later, um, fasting for Nixon to be president despite Watergate-
18. TNTrevor Noah
  [laughs]
19. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... and I think my dad's gonna appreciate me. And I'm like, "Dad, God wants Nixon to be president. I'm fasting for him." He goes, "Steve, you are right. He's a crook." [laughs] I'm like, "Dad, you don't understand. God wants him to be president."
20. TNTrevor Noah
  But how did you,
8:32 – 10:09
From Hating Nixon To Fasting For Him
1. TNTrevor Noah
  you, do you understand what you just skipped for me? You just told me about art-
2. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  [laughs]
3. TNTrevor Noah
  ... basketball, philosophy, and then you go into the gym-
4. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  All the important things, yeah
5. TNTrevor Noah
  ... and then all of a sudden you j- you just jumped into Moonies-
6. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Fasting
7. TNTrevor Noah
  ... go- no, I need to understand. I, I, I'll, and, and-
8. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Okay
9. TNTrevor Noah
  ... I'll elaborate on why later.
10. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Okay.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  I need you to take us through the steps, 'cause I like what you said, "I'm not a joiner." Sounds like you were a smart kid-
12. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Okay
13. TNTrevor Noah
  ... came from a good family.
14. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Mm-hmm.
15. TNTrevor Noah
  You had your own point of view, and then what happens? When, when does The Moonies... So The Moonies is, is this-
16. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Educated about the Holocaust.
17. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
18. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Bicycle crossed the US when I was 16.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  Wait, for why?
20. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  'Cause I was, like, wanting to see the United States, and I was into bicycling.
21. TNTrevor Noah
  And you hadn't heard of buses?
22. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  What bicycles-
23. TNTrevor Noah
  Buses.
24. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I was 16. I didn't have... No, I, this was a, this was a, a, an outing to have experiences.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  How did you get back-
26. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Back then-
27. TNTrevor Noah
  ... before dark? What were you, what were your parents thinking?
28. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  No, we would camp out or stay at hostels.
29. TNTrevor Noah
  [laughs]
30. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I went with American Youth Hostels.
10:09 – 13:15
Love Bombing On A College Campus
1. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  them. I'm gonna get lucky with one of them. I can, if I, if my-
2. TNTrevor Noah
  Your math was very good, even from a-
3. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I said-
4. TNTrevor Noah
  ... early age. [laughs]
5. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I said, "Are you students here?" Yeah, my math was-
6. TNTrevor Noah
  You'd have a bright future with online gambling-
7. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Yeah. [laughs]
8. TNTrevor Noah
  ... if you had a time machine.
9. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  [laughs]
10. TNTrevor Noah
  I'm spreading my odds here. [laughs]
11. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  What they didn't say is, "We don't believe in sex." And-
12. TNTrevor Noah
  Wait, so how-
13. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Trevor-
14. TNTrevor Noah
  So, so they come to you-
15. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  No, they were j- they were just using-
16. TNTrevor Noah
  'Cause, oh man, this is amazing
17. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... sexual seduction-
18. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, yeah, yeah
19. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... as a recruiting tool.
20. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, the honey pot.
21. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And I, they lied. They said they were students. They weren't. I said, "Are you part of some religious group?" "No, not at all."
22. TNTrevor Noah
  So you asked.
23. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I asked. I l- literally asked.
24. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  But they lied.
26. TNTrevor Noah
  What made you, what, what made you ask?
27. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  But that's also part of, people need to understand, destructive cults deceive.
28. TNTrevor Noah
  But wait-
29. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Yeah
30. TNTrevor Noah
  ... what, what, what, what made you ask that question? 'Cause I-
13:15 – 15:30
The Van Ride To Tarrytown
1. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  people."
2. SPSpeaker
  So you call them up, they pull up in their station wagon?
3. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  No, the-
4. SPSpeaker
  There you go, right?
5. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I went, I went to their house
6. TNTrevor Noah
  Did you assume it's a car?
7. SPSpeaker
  It's always a station wagon. [laughs]
8. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And I, I made a mis- this was way before cell phones-
9. SPSpeaker
  Yeah
10. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... so I made the mistake to not bring my car so I'd have wheels if I didn't like it.
11. SPSpeaker
  Yeah.
12. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  That was big mistake.
13. SPSpeaker
  Big.
14. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And I didn't have a phone number to tell my family or anybody where I was, so nobody knew where I was. And we're driving up to Tarrytown, to this multimillion-dollar estate, and as we're passing, it's dark at night, it was snowy.
15. SPSpeaker
  They're in your car?
16. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  We- I'm in their van.
17. SPSpeaker
  Oh, so you're in their van.
18. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, you're in their van.
19. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I'm in their van, and, and one of the people at the front says, "This weekend we're gonna have a joint workshop with the Unification Church." And I went, "What?"
20. SPSpeaker
  [laughs]
21. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  "What? I'm Jewish. I'm not into church."
22. SPSpeaker
  [laughs] I'm Jewish, I'm not into, I bought my car. [laughs]
23. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  "What's this? Nobody said anything about a workshop. I'm out of here."
24. SPSpeaker
  Oh, man.
25. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  "Drive me back to Queens."
26. SPSpeaker
  [laughs]
27. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And I swear to God, that's exactly what happened.
28. SPSpeaker
  You know, you, can I tell you what you remind me of?
29. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, man.
30. SPSpeaker
  You remind me of how Eugene reacts sometimes-
15:30 – 18:16
Bait And Switch: “Are You Close Minded?”
1. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  the van pulls into-
2. SPSpeaker
  Mm
3. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... this estate.
4. SPSpeaker
  Mm.
5. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  It formerly owned by the Seagrams family, and I hear this rap about workshop and the Unification Church. I have my thing. And they did the t- a very typical mind control technique. They turned it around on me.
6. TNTrevor Noah
  Can you explain more?
7. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Yeah. So I said, "What do you mean church? I'm Jewish, and, uh, what do you mean workshop? The, I thought we were just gonna have fun." And they're like, "Are you close-minded about Christianity, Steve?"
8. SPSpeaker
  Hmm.
9. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So they, whatever objection you have, they make it-
10. SPSpeaker
  They bring it back to you
11. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... your fault versus those motherfuckers, if it's okay to curse.
12. SPSpeaker
  Yeah.
13. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, yeah. I mean, it's up to you. [laughs]
14. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Those motherfuckers said, is, they weren't religious. [laughs] It wasn't a group. I was lied to. I, I, I want out of here. S- but anyway, it was not, um, I just, nobody explained to me how cults operate, and I was one of, as most people today, walking around going, "I'm too smart to ever fall for a cult."
15. TNTrevor Noah
  So let's, let's, so let's break this-
16. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I'm, I'm educated. I come from a good family.
17. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah. Yeah, but let's break this part down now.
18. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Please.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  So, so now knowing the things that you, that you know, let's go through these two major steps-
20. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Mm
21. TNTrevor Noah
  ... to help somebody else understand, like, what is actually happening. So let's go back to the, to the university campus. Help me understand what that initial... Do, do you have a name for that? Do you, is there a term for what happened there? What is significant about the way that they approached you-
22. SPSpeaker
  Mm
23. TNTrevor Noah
  ... and, and, and brought you in?
24. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So The Moonies call it witnessing, but that's a term Christians often use for proselytizing.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  Okay.
26. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So but the, the key thing is ethical religious groups tell people upfront who they are, what they believe, and what they want from them-
27. TNTrevor Noah
  Okay, that's ethical
28. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... before they pressure you or guilt trip you or indoctrinate you-
29. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
30. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... into things.
18:16 – 20:27
The BITE Model Explained
1. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  dissertation on, behavior control, information control, thought control, and emotional control.
2. TNTrevor Noah
  Okay. B-I-T-E. Right.
3. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  BITE Model.
4. TNTrevor Noah
  Okay, got it.
5. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I call it the BITE Model. You can download it, the whole list. And so if they control your sleep, if they control your clothing, what you eat, you can start ticking off how authoritarian it is.
6. SPSpeaker
  The scale.
7. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  But critically Did you have informed consent going in?
8. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
9. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And how free are you to question it or leave if you're not happy-
10. TNTrevor Noah
  So, so that's-
11. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... or if you find something better?
12. TNTrevor Noah
  So that second part then, so when you, when they're saying to you, "Are you not open?" W- what is that, what is that technique? Like, why, why is that so bad? I'm, and I'm literally just trying to understand this-
13. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Mm-hmm
14. TNTrevor Noah
  ... and play devil's advocate at the same time. Someone goes like, "Oh, are you close-minded, Steve?"
15. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Right.
16. TNTrevor Noah
  W- what are they actually doing there to you?
17. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So things have become far more sophisticated-
18. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
19. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... than we were in the '70s and the Moonies, and much is going on online. So what I'd like to try to do in this conversation is explain what I now understand what's happening today-
20. TNTrevor Noah
  Okay
21. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... in a way that's gonna help the, the widest audience. So what I want to say is that our attention is very narrow.
22. TNTrevor Noah
  Hmm.
23. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  We can't focus, I think the number is between five and nine bits of information at any second, but m- we're taking in tens of thousands of bits of information just visually a second. So we have a conscious mind w- kind of like a tuner-
24. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
25. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... on a radio that has AM and FM, but it's just listening to this one band, but all the rest is happening.
26. TNTrevor Noah
  At the same time.
27. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So understand that a lot of what happens today is misdirection, reversal to distract people from what to really pay attention to.
28. TNTrevor Noah
  Hmm.
29. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So y- y- you know, I'm asking this question, and now they're flipping it, or they're doing a reversal-
30. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, okay
20:27 – 23:35
Misdirection And Mind Control Tactics
1. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  that.
2. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm. You said, "Hey, guys," you said, "Why is there workshop? And I'm Jewish."
3. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  They lied to me.
4. TNTrevor Noah
  "You didn't tell me about religion."
5. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  They-
6. TNTrevor Noah
  And they flip it.
7. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  They lied to me.
8. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, they did say, "Yep."
9. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  They didn't say, "Yep, we did," or, "We had to."
10. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm.
11. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  We just said, "W- do you have an issue, obviously."
12. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm.
13. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  You have an issue, Eugene, with trust apparently-
14. TNTrevor Noah
  [laughs]
15. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... that you're even asking this.
16. TNTrevor Noah
  Does that go back... Yeah, is it, yeah.
17. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  But the, the-
18. TNTrevor Noah
  Where did you get that from?
19. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... technique of mind controllers i- the more data they can gather on a person ahead of time, usually by asking the recruiter who's already... And b- back then, you couldn't buy somebody's profile.
20. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, now you can.
21. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Today you can. So it's way more problematic now because if you're a person of influence, if you have money, for example, you can be targeted and have no idea you're being targeted online with AI, and that's why it's so important. My solution to what's happening in the world right now is psycho education-
22. TNTrevor Noah
  Hmm
23. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... about how the mind works-
24. TNTrevor Noah
  Hmm
25. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... how social psychology works, how neuroscience works, and how are we gonna be ethical so we have planetary survival because most people are good. Most people know there's climate warming due to fossil fuels and don't want to buy into the constant brainwashing and propaganda saying, "There's no scientific proof." It's like the tab- big tobacco. There's no proof it's cancer causing.
26. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, we've had that conversation.
27. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  They knew it was cancer causing.
28. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
29. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And the big cults have hired sociologists of religion to say, "There's no such proof of brainwashing at all."
30. TNTrevor Noah
  So they use many of the same techniques-
23:35 – 27:25
How Cults Rebuild Your Identity
1. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  till you're behaving the way they want you to behave. And in the end, they want to program a new identity.
2. TNTrevor Noah
  And it's c- it's-
3. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  It's a, it's a dissociative disorder. So I was the real Steven-
4. TNTrevor Noah
  Hmm
5. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... and they wanted me to believe that Sun Myung Moon was 10 times greater than Jesus Christ or any religious figure in history, that he was sinless, and he was gonna save the world. He was gonna bring peace. He was gonna feed all the starving children in the world, and I needed to be like him. So they built a m- a M- a Moon identity that took over my identity, and this identity said, "He's satanic. Don't listen to him. He wants to write poetry and have sex-
6. TNTrevor Noah
  Play basketball
7. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... with girls and play basketball." Sex is a big no-no, except for the leaders. The leaders apparently got to have a lot of sex.
8. TNTrevor Noah
  They can always have sex.
9. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Well, there are lot, you know, there-
10. EUEugene
  Are we leaders?
11. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  [laughs] Power, money, and sex.
12. EUEugene
  But not to do it with, not with each other.
13. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Power, money, and sex is the universal-
14. EUEugene
  Oh
15. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... for, for bad groups.
16. TNTrevor Noah
  So you
17. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  You're in this, you're in this, this, um, this place, and you're having these conversations
18. TNTrevor Noah
  He's having marshmallows
19. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  You're having marshmallows
20. TNTrevor Noah
  By the fireplace
21. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Nothing, nothing says non-threatening like marshmallows
22. TNTrevor Noah
  And three hot chicks
23. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I mean, so that's-
24. TNTrevor Noah
  It's all the same
25. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So that's another point
26. TNTrevor Noah
  You're in. Yeah
27. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So one of the techniques that cults like to do is, in hypnosis, it's called age regression. They want you to become like a child
28. TNTrevor Noah
  They bring you back to your childhood
29. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So they bring you back to camp, where you're playing guitar around the, the fireplace, and it's bringing up good feelings
30. TNTrevor Noah
  It's all familiar, good feelings
27:25 – 29:50
Three Days That Changed Everything
1. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Good question. So there's another weirdo event, 'cause I told you a weirdo event with my, uh, my boss-
2. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
3. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... at the Holiday Inn. So at the ... I thought it was a weekend. Come Sunday night, "No, it's a three-day workshop. You have to stay for the most important day." I'm like, "I'm a student. I have classes. [laughs] Take me back now." And they worked on me, worked on me, worked on me. So they got me to stay for the third day, and I felt like my brain had been in a washing machine. I remember that, but I knew I needed to get the hell out of there-
4. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm
5. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... and I just got angry and kept saying, "I wanna go home, I wanna go home." They started pressuring me to stay for a seven-day workshop after the three-day workshop, and nothing worked until I, like, threatened violence, that I'm, [laughs] I don't wanna be here. So they did let me go home, and my mother and my father were like, "Where were you? We were worried. Your eyes are all glassy. Were you drugged?" And I said, "I don't think they drugged me. I haven't slept much." And that's a-
6. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, control
7. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... major technique-
8. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
9. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... of mind control. Uh, my mother said, "Let's go talk to the rabbi." That was her go-to.
10. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
11. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And I went, "Sure, I'll talk to the rabbi." And he was completely clueless of what to say or even what to ask. And he thought I wanted to convert to Christianity, which was the furthest thing on my mind.
12. TNTrevor Noah
  [laughs] Furthest thing from his mind, too
13. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  But they had put ... In three days, they had put the idea in my head that we were living at a moment in history where the world was gonna be transformed to be this Garden of Eden paradise because the Messiah was coming. They didn't say Moon was the Messiah yet, just that the Messiah was coming
14. TNTrevor Noah
  We're in this moment. Mm-hmm
15. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And so I asked the rabbi that. What he should have said is, "Steve, I've never heard of this group, but let me tell you, if a group is legitimate, it will stand up to scrutiny. Promise me you won't be in touch with them for the next few weeks, and we'll research it together." That's what he should have said to me
16. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, but he didn't know to say that
17. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  He didn't know to say that
18. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
19. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So I'm back at home, three days of hypnotic programming in my head, and I'm going, "These people think the Messiah's coming. I wanna write poetry."
29:50 – 32:08
“The Messiah Might Be Coming”
1. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  [laughs]
2. TNTrevor Noah
  You're back in your normal life, yeah
3. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I want ... Save the world, write poetry. Save the world, do God's will-
4. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
5. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... or write poetry. And I had this moment where I just was in my room. I had books all over the floor. I was reading two to three books a week, 'cause I'm a reader, like you. And I-
6. TNTrevor Noah
  Not two to three books a week reading
7. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Back then, I was reading two to three books a week. I'm still reading a lot. In any case, I pick up a book, um, about a, a, another cult leader named Gurdjieff
8. TNTrevor Noah
  Okay
9. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  You ever heard of Gurdjieff?
10. TNTrevor Noah
  No, never heard of Gur-
11. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Turned out my next-door neighbor's father was into Gurdjieff, so he had introduced me to this. So I was already primed-
12. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, boy
13. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... a bit into, "Mankind is asleep, and we have to wake up," and there were these esoteric forces that we-
14. TNTrevor Noah
  Which, which, by the way, can I just interject here and say, which I often find, these, a lot of these things are true, though. So, so this is, this is something that I'm picking up on already, is many of the things that are, that ... a cult might say to you are actually true.
15. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Mm.
16. TNTrevor Noah
  Do you get what I'm saying? I, I do think-
17. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  For sure
18. TNTrevor Noah
  ... mankind is asleep in that way. And, and we see it in what we eat, how we live, how we-
19. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  What you consume
20. TNTrevor Noah
  ... how we work, how we consume.
21. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Mm-hmm.
22. TNTrevor Noah
  There is a level of, like, asleep.
23. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Sleepwalking.
24. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah. But I go like, yeah-
25. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Mm
26. TNTrevor Noah
  ... no, this is true. We, we're not in touch with our bodies anymore.
27. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Mm.
28. TNTrevor Noah
  We're not in tune with our minds. We, you know, we, we, we some ... we act mindlessly. We ... You ... I could ... If someone said that to me-
29. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  People walking down the street look-
30. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know how many times-
32:08 – 44:30
The Question That Rewires Your Brain
1. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  but the technique that's most effective is I empower my clients to understand Chinese communist brainwashing, my model, et cetera, and the technique is this simple. I ask people to go back to that critical earlier moment when they were getting recruited or they were falling in love with someone who was a malignant narcissist that was gonna ruin their lives. If you knew then what you know now, what would you say and do differently?
2. TNTrevor Noah
  Hmm.
3. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And I have them reprocess because they didn't know what they didn't know, but if I knew it was the Moonies, that this fat Korean billionaire was a pervert and involved with the Korean CIA and the Washington Times, et cetera, I would've said, "You're not students. Get the hell out of here. I'm calling security." But so, but the point is it's a dissociative disorder. I was using my hands before. So the key is, once you're out, is deconstructing-
4. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm
5. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... the programmed identity-
6. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
7. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... by going back to critical moments and rewiring using neuroplasticity and neurogenesis-
8. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm
9. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... saying, "If I knew then what I know now, here's how I would've handled it or could've handled it or should've handled it."
10. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm.
11. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Because then it empowers you going forward into the future to not get taken again-
12. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah. Letting-
13. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... with those techniques
14. TNTrevor Noah
  ... letting your brain train your body on how to react next time instead of freezing and again-
15. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And the key is the locus of control has to be in you-
16. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm
17. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... not looking outside to some authority figure or ideology to tell you what, uh, what reality is or what the beliefs are. [upbeat music]
18. TNTrevor Noah
  We'll be right back after this. All right, Eugene.
19. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Mm.
20. TNTrevor Noah
  Let's play a little game. You know, make something fun. Two truths and a lie.
21. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Mm-hmm.
22. TNTrevor Noah
  Here we go. One, I've had to tell a world leader that their fly was undone. Two, when getting dressed, I don't do sock, sock, shoe, shoe. I do sock, shoe, sock, shoe. Three, I've been a Verizon customer for 11 years. What do you think?
23. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Hmm. Very confused. First of all, why would a world leader own a fly? 'Cause those things just come uninvited. Secondly, lying to a friend is not cool. It's never been a game.
24. TNTrevor Noah
  No, Eugene, f- a fly is for, like, the zip is what ... And then it's, it's g- it's not a lie. It's a game where I'm try- it's like I give you inform- okay, I lied. All three are true, Eugene. And in case you were thinking, you know, Verizon isn't as expensive as you think. In fact, if you bring in your AT&T or T-Mobile bill, they'll give you a better deal. And the reason I've been with them for this long is just because I travel so much. I need a network that's reliable. That's right, a better deal on the best network, with the most ways to save on plans, streaming, and phone deals. Take your AT&T or T-Mobile bill to your local Verizon store today. Get your better deal and start saving for real. Based on RootMetrics' Best Overall Mobile Network Performance, US second half 2025. All rights reserved. You must provide recent consumer mobile bill in the name of the person redeeming the deal. Additional terms, conditions, and restrictions apply. [upbeat music] So do you understand how two truths and the ... D- do you understand it now?
25. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I understand that you didn't have to lie first before telling me that Verizon is the best.
26. TNTrevor Noah
  No, I wasn't lying f- Eugene, it's not a lie. I wouldn't lie to you. It's, it's a game. Okay, I'm sorry. I lied. Uh.
27. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  [laughs] [upbeat music] You know, the story of recruitment sounds so familiar to me. When I, when I was f- 14, we moved from the township to town.
28. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm.
29. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So we lived in this block of flats, my mom, my two other siblings.
30. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm.
44:30 – 46:12
Phobia Indoctrination And The Exorcist
1. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  singing in church-
2. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
3. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... or whatever-
4. EUEugene
  Chanting, yeah
5. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... it feels great. That was, when people say, "What was the best part of the Moonies?" I said, "I love singing in a group."
6. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, yeah.
7. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Like, I really-
8. TNTrevor Noah
  It's, it's the reason, um, uh, armies can march further together than they can ... Remember when, when-
9. EUEugene
  Mm
10. TNTrevor Noah
  ... when the first-
11. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  For sure
12. TNTrevor Noah
  ... large militaries, like the way we think of militaries-
13. EUEugene
  Mm
14. TNTrevor Noah
  ... started marching in unison on a beat?
15. EUEugene
  Yeah, Roman military.
16. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, marching together on a beat-
17. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  With, with-
18. TNTrevor Noah
  ... with a drum and with, like, a vibe.
19. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Totally.
20. TNTrevor Noah
  They went, they went further-
21. EUEugene
  And even the stomping of the feet
22. TNTrevor Noah
  ... and they got less tired
23. EUEugene
  ... the marching part. Yeah.
24. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, that-
25. EUEugene
  Rhythm
26. TNTrevor Noah
  ... 'cause that thing, it does something to us that we don't fully understand as humans.
27. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So the, one of the, one of the social psychology experiments I teach my clients and the public, there are three.
28. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah?
29. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Asch conformity study, Milgram obedience study, and Zimbardo prison study.
30. TNTrevor Noah
  Okay.
46:12 – 50:32
Why Singing Together Feels So Powerful
1. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  no." And they disagreed. But two-thirds start giving the wrong answer just to fit in-
2. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
3. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... to the social conformity.
4. TNTrevor Noah
  See, that's a, that's-
5. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And no one gets up to measure. That's what I teach. It's like, if you really want to know, look for an objective way to measure-
6. TNTrevor Noah
  Yep
7. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... what's going on.
8. TNTrevor Noah
  But you see now, that, that for me taps into o- one of the greatest conundrums in, in society. And that is, for most of society to function, we have to agree on things that aren't real, or rather th- realities that are imagined so that we can function together, right?
9. EUEugene
  Mm-hmm.
10. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  We have to trust.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  Like a traffic light is a society agreeing on something that is not real.
12. EUEugene
  Mm-hmm.
13. TNTrevor Noah
  We go, the red light stops us. It doesn't stop us, but we all agree that we will stop.
14. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  It's the rule that we've-
15. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
16. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... agreed to. If you-
17. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, but we, we all have to sort of imagine that the thing has happened or hasn't happened, or you know the way people go quiet in certain spaces?
18. EUEugene
  Mm.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  We all agree to be quiet in the space-
20. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Sure
21. TNTrevor Noah
  ... or we all ... So it's like, it's, it's a weird thing, because it feels like we need to be able to do this as humans so that we can form societies.
22. EUEugene
  Mm.
23. TNTrevor Noah
  But now you're saying we also have to be careful of when we do it, because then the society we form is a cult.
24. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So I believe cults exist from the ethical to the unethical. So I-
25. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, okay
26. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... make a distinction, 'cause there are cult classic ... I, I, I joke I'm in the TEDx cult, 'cause I've done four-
27. TNTrevor Noah
  [laughs]
28. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... TEDx talks.
29. TNTrevor Noah
  Okay. All right.
30. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And I love to watch them. I love to learn. I love to, uh, to have, uh, fascinating input in my brain, or scuba diving. I, I'm passionate about scuba diving. And there's, it's great. It's expensive. I, you know, I have to buy equipment-
50:32 – 55:15
From Skeptic To Inner Circle Leader
1. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  interpreted that sentence as a message that I needed to go-
2. TNTrevor Noah
  Dead
3. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... to the group because Gurdjieff was dead, and following a living spiritual master was the way to go. And so I still, in my mind, I wasn't joining for my life, but I had this quandary.
4. TNTrevor Noah
  The universe, yeah.
5. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Is the Messiah maybe coming-
6. TNTrevor Noah
  Right
7. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... or isn't it? So I wanted to know more, and that's part of the appeal at the beginning-
8. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm
9. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... isn't to re- commit your life-
10. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm
11. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... but it's to learn more.
12. TNTrevor Noah
  Curiosity.
13. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Open your mind.
14. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
15. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Don't be closed-minded.
16. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
17. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Consider that there's a bigger path for you. And where I got hooked was I was selected by a top Japanese leader that Moon had brought over to the United States. Moon was very unhappy with the American movement 'cause they weren't militant enough, so he brought this j- top Japanese guy over, and the Japanese guy checked me out, and he, he made me one of his disciples.
18. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm.
19. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So through this guy, I got to be in the room with Moon as we had discussions about infiltrating the US government and how God wants a theocracy and wants, uh, thinks democracy is satanic. I got to hear all of these things in 1974, but I was a true believer because I learned to shut down any doubts, and I believed that if I just followed what Moon was saying, 'cause he was plugged into God, then the world would be saved. 10 generations of my ancestors on my mother's and father's side would get out of a terrible situation in the spirit world, which I didn't believe in before.
20. TNTrevor Noah
  But, but this is something that's always confused me, like, you're talking about the leaders are now in a room. I, I've, I've always wondered, do cult leaders themselves believe in the cult? Hmm. They do.
21. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Yeah, it's a great question.
22. TNTrevor Noah
  Do, but do they, though?
23. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  It's a great question.
24. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, they have to. But do they, though?
25. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  It's a great question. I can't say definitively. I'm a forensic expert, but I can tell you that when you're surrounded only by yes people-
26. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
27. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... you tend to believe what you wanna believe.
28. TNTrevor Noah
  That becomes your cult.
29. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So it becomes your reality.
30. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm.
55:15 – 1:05:05
Were The Moonies Linked To The CIA?
1. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
2. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... hy-
3. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, yeah, yeah
4. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... hypnosis, electroshock.
5. TNTrevor Noah
  Right, mind control.
6. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And after Jonestown, there was a special, I think ABC did a special, and the head, former head psychologist of the CIA said, "Yeah, we researched brainwashing, but we didn't find anything that worked, and we burned our records."
7. TNTrevor Noah
  Lies.
8. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Total lies. And to this day, no government has been honest with its citizens of, we know how to hack people's brains. We know how to recruit and indoctrinate people, but that's where we're at now, is we have to educate everybody because America's being hacked. We're, we're in a coup. It's really horrendous what's happening, and people need to understand. This is a Cold War extension. We thought the Soviet Union collapsed, we won, and Putin and the other oligarchs who were KGB are like, "We're taking down the US."
9. TNTrevor Noah
  You see, but this is, this is what I mean about where we draw the distinctions.
10. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Mm-hmm.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  Uh, because in my head, I'm going, I hear when there are specific cults, and then I understand what you're saying about the BITE, right?
12. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Mm-hmm.
13. TNTrevor Noah
  But, but then I go, it feels like, and maybe I'm wrong, but it feels like to me there are some overlaps between things that are cult-ish but not necessarily a cult.
14. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Sure.
15. TNTrevor Noah
  And then there are things that are definitely cults but don't seem like a cult. And so it leaves us in the space where you go, is this a tool that cults use, or is this a tool of cults that non-cults use?
16. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Both.
17. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, it goes both ways.
18. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Absolutely.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  Huh. So w-
20. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Why-
21. TNTrevor Noah
  So you're not necessarily saying that, like, everyone is in, in a cult, or, or are you saying that they're in a cult? I can't figure it out.
22. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Well, we have culture. I mean, I grew up in the fear of the nuclear holocaust and, you know-
23. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
24. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... uh, fearing Russia and getting under my wooden desk at PS173 [laughs] in Queens because Russia may nuke us. Um, and then I had my disillusionment with American Vietnam.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
26. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  When I thought it was a just war, and I realized that they were lying from the whole time-
27. TNTrevor Noah
  Uh-huh
28. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... and they were just killing innocent people who wanted their country, et cetera. But it was to fight communism. In any case, what I, what I wanna say is that we are either gonna continue to evolve as a species with the goal of planetary survival, which means cooperation with other countries, or it's the authoritarians versus the rest of us-
29. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
30. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... you know, who want rule of law and human rights and gay rights and women's rights and [laughs] indigenous rights and minority religious rights. So I think that there's more of us than them, and we just need to understand correctly to diagnose the situation and approach it.
1:05:05 – 1:07:10
Can You Be In An Online Cult?
1. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  What happened? Steve fell asleep at the wheel of a van, drove into the back of a tractor-trailer truck on the Baltimore Beltway at 80 miles an hour, was trapped for a half an hour before I was rescued, needed surgery, but I was away from the cult.
2. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh.
3. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  For two weeks-
4. TNTrevor Noah
  Extenuating circumstance-
5. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... sleeping-
6. TNTrevor Noah
  ... separated you from them
7. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... eating. Well, my brain-
8. TNTrevor Noah
  Or you could call it divine intervention
9. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... my brain-
10. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
11. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... came back online because it wasn't const- I was sleeping three to four hours a night in the cult.
12. TNTrevor Noah
  You had switched off your phone for two weeks.
13. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I had no phone.
14. TNTrevor Noah
  Not-
15. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  This was '76
16. TNTrevor Noah
  ... the proverbial phone.
17. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah.
18. TNTrevor Noah
  No, I literally... So that opened the door to me calling my sister, who was the only one in my family that didn't say I was brainwashed in a cult. She convinced me to visit and meet my nephew who had been born. I made her promise not to tell my parents, 'cause I was afraid of being deprogrammed.
19. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Mm-hmm.
20. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm.
21. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And she told my parents, and they took my crutches away, and-
22. TNTrevor Noah
  Then you-
23. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... I, I had a situation where I was gonna be deprogrammed, and I was going to snap my father's neck while he was driving a car on the Long Island Expressway.
24. TNTrevor Noah
  Wow.
25. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And I thought, "But I know God, and I know Father, and they can't get me out of doing God's will, so why don't I prove to them I'm not in a cult and I'm not brainwashed?" So that's what my, my thought process was, and what helped me get out was learning what Chinese Communist brainwashing methods were.
26. TNTrevor Noah
  What are they?
27. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So what were they? So they used a book that was published in 1961 called-
28. TNTrevor Noah
  The little red book?
29. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... Thought Refor- no.
30. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, another one.
1:07:10 – 1:08:45
The Car Crash That Broke The Spell
1. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  But we were-
2. TNTrevor Noah
  Do you remember any of them offhand?
3. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Of course. This is my work. [laughs] Yes. But I was like, "We're God, they're Satan. Communism is Satan."
4. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm.
5. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  But we're doing the same brainwashing. This, this is where the, the dissonance, when my brain started kicking into gear. So milieu control is control of the environment and communication.
6. TNTrevor Noah
  Okay.
7. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Ah, sacred science, where you claim to have the ultimate science and moral vision-
8. TNTrevor Noah
  Okay
9. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... for the thing. Ah, loaded language, which are basically thought-terminating cliches-
10. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
11. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... that, 'cause words are the tools we use to think.
12. TNTrevor Noah
  Okay.
13. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So if you can have buzzwords-
14. TNTrevor Noah
  Your vocabulary gets-
15. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... fake news
16. TNTrevor Noah
  ... changed. Yeah
17. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... you know, don't think about what the content was. [laughs]
18. TNTrevor Noah
  [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's fair.
19. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Just label it fake news.
20. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
21. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Um, what else? Uh, demand for purity, which is a perfectionism where they always keep raising the bar so you always are feeling shameful or insufficient.
22. TNTrevor Noah
  Okay.
23. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So you always are trying harder and harder.
24. TNTrevor Noah
  Hmm.
25. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Uh, the cult of confession, and that talks about information control, finding everything about your background, and if you are, you know, feeling guilty over something you did, they use it against you. They have people turning in each other if they break the rules. This is all outlined in my BITE Model, that, 'cause I'd taken his model and made it-
26. TNTrevor Noah
  Right, and built, yeah
27. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... more codified. Um, one of the most important ones is called
1:08:45 – 1:17:25
Chinese Communist Brainwashing Criteria
1. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  dispensing of existence, and that says if you're in the cult, you have a right to exist, and if you leave, then you're nothing. You're a non-person. You can be killed, you can be lied to or whatever. And it's Lifton's description of cancel culture.
2. TNTrevor Noah
  Wow.
3. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Cancel people. The right does it, the left does it, but you ... I say, you know, people should have the right to leave an environment if they're not happy or they find something better.
4. TNTrevor Noah
  Wow.
5. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  If it's healthy, you let people go. Nope, you, you left us and you're the enemy now.
6. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, and so you're no longer human. You're no longer ... You disagree on this, so you're-
7. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Yes, you're a traitor.
8. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
9. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Right? So, but, you know-
10. TNTrevor Noah
  But no, you see now, okay, now my brain then goes, everything is then a cult. That's what my brain says. Because I, uh, okay, so let, let, let me tell you why.
11. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So remember, culture-
12. TNTrevor Noah
  I'm saying as you're explaining it-
13. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... cult comes from culture.
14. TNTrevor Noah
  Yes, yes.
15. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  So we have-
16. TNTrevor Noah
  So-
17. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... culture. We need culture.
18. TNTrevor Noah
  No, no, I'm with you. I'm with you.
19. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Yeah. Yeah.
20. TNTrevor Noah
  I'm, I'm, I'm saying-
21. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Culture
22. TNTrevor Noah
  ... both on my behalf and someone who's listening to this.
23. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Yep.
24. TNTrevor Noah
  Right? I start with, like, let's say a family. A family can say, "We are the Johnsons. You are a Johnson. I am a Johnson, and in the Johnson family, we always have dinner at 7:00 PM, and at the Johnson household, we go for walks on Saturdays," and you know what I mean? And if you don't-
25. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Totally
26. TNTrevor Noah
  ... like it, you can leave, but if you leave this house-
27. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  We'll cut you off.
28. TNTrevor Noah
  Totally
29. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... we will cut you off from the Johnsons, and you're no longer a Johnson.
30. TNTrevor Noah
  You can't ... No one will be allowed to call you.
1:17:25 – 1:36:31
Is Trump A Cult Or Just Politics?
1. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  at surveymonkey.com/whatnow. You have any questions?
2. EUEugene
  Is it too late for me to run a survey about who doesn't like you in the podcast?
3. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  What do you mean who doesn't like you? Like, like me?
4. EUEugene
  Like you, yes. Specifically the person in front of me.
5. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I think surveys are supposed to be anonymous so that people's feelings don't get hurt.
6. EUEugene
  But I did type anonymous there.
7. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Well, I mean, now I'll know that you typed it because do, do you have a problem with the working conditions?
8. EUEugene
  I haven't sent it.
9. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  But you wanna make a survey about-
10. EUEugene
  I haven't sent it yet.
11. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  You can just use the code WHATNOW to get two months free when you do it.
12. EUEugene
  Still have two months to complain about you.
13. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  I feel like this is personal. [upbeat music] It's interesting when you say, um, when you talk about how people speak about themselves post a cult.
14. EUEugene
  Mm-hmm.
15. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  A lot of it sounds similar to how people speak about themselves post an authoritarian regime.
16. EUEugene
  Yeah. It's-
17. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  You know?
18. EUEugene
  Because they are
19. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... so, like, when they, when they interviewed people, when they interviewed people post Hitler and the Nazis-
20. EUEugene
  Hmm
21. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... they asked many Germans, and they're like, "I, I, I didn't... You know, I just found myself being part of this, and I, I, I didn't know. And I, I, I really just found myself..." And when they would talk to people in A- in America who were part of, you know, whether it was the Ku Klux Klan or whether they go like, "I, I just felt myself being swept up in a wave. And looking back, I can't believe that that's me." That's what a lot of people say.
22. EUEugene
  Yeah.
23. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  "I, I can't believe..." Uh, South Africans who... You know what I mean?
24. EUEugene
  Mm.
25. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  They're apartheid.
26. EUEugene
  Apartheid, yeah.
27. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  White South Africans who are like, "I, I can't believe I ever thought that I... I just can't..." It's, it's this, it's this-
28. EUEugene
  You're right
29. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... interesting world where they do not see themselves now-
30. EUEugene
  They separate themselves from the act
1:36:31 – 1:47:00
Why Desperation Fuels Authoritarianism
1. TNTrevor Noah
  the, you know-
2. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Traitor
3. TNTrevor Noah
  ... the traitor-
4. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Right
5. TNTrevor Noah
  ... and we will never talk to her, and she's out on her own. It, it, it's interesting how that ties into what you're saying
6. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Yeah. Well, that's part of what we realize when you're in an authoritarian group, that you think the other members are your friends, but you see what happens if somebody questions it-
7. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
8. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... or doesn't go along, and how badly they're treated. People get that message-
9. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
10. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... and they're like-
11. TNTrevor Noah
  A lot of them
12. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... "They're, they're ... They'll, uh, they'll only be my friend if I obey-
13. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
14. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... and if I conform and do exactly what I'm told." Look, um, I don't trust Ma- Marjorie Taylor Greene until she says ... 'Cause she's saying, "I'm not in a cult. I'm not in a cult." I'm a cult expert. QAnon was a cult. I wrote a whole BITE Model analysis. I called it a psyop. I, I analyzed why it w- it's an online cult, but it was a mind control cult. Until she gets what I'm talking about, until she says Trump did win ... Uh, excuse me, Biden did win the 2020 election, and anyone who says that Trump won it is in the cult Until she says that, I don't trust anything she says
15. TNTrevor Noah
  You, you think that she's just sort of making a splinter cult?
16. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Yep
17. TNTrevor Noah
  Is that common in cults, by the way?
18. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Yes
19. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh
20. EUEugene
  Yeah
21. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  'Cause she doesn't understand brainwashing and mind control, and there are those colleagues of mine who think that she's co-opted by Russia
22. TNTrevor Noah
  Damn
23. EUEugene
  Mm
24. TNTrevor Noah
  The Russians. The Russ- I would like to go get co-opted by Russia. It sounds like a fun vibe
25. EUEugene
  Mm.
26. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
27. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Criminal, criminal, you know, oligarchs, man
28. TNTrevor Noah
  You guys are haters, man. You guys are haters, man
29. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  You're too nice
30. TNTrevor Noah
  You guys are just haters out in these streets
1:47:00 – 1:50:17
The Danger Of Absolute Certainty
1. TNTrevor Noah
  Do your own thing.
2. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  You can make mistakes, but learn. Don't make the same mistake twice. But don't be paralyzed and not try new things.
3. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
4. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Be open to other perspectives. That's another key. Blind faith, the cure is perspective-
5. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah. Hm
6. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... to look at it from other points of view. That's why looking at Chinese Communist brainwashing or pimps and traffickers is a new lens-
7. TNTrevor Noah
  Right
8. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... on, on-
9. TNTrevor Noah
  It gives you an opportunity to take a step back and say, "Oh, maybe I'm looking at this in a, in, like, a limited way."
10. EUEugene
  Hm.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  "And if I just, just move myself around it, maybe I'll see a different side." That was, that's what Rodin always wanted. The, the-
12. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  The sculptor
13. TNTrevor Noah
  ... the sculptor.
14. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Yeah
15. TNTrevor Noah
  The French sculptor.
16. EUEugene
  Mm-hmm.
17. TNTrevor Noah
  What made him so special, they said, was when you would look at his, his art, his sculptures, depending on where you looked at it from-
18. EUEugene
  Look different
19. TNTrevor Noah
  ... you had a very different feeling of what was happening. So the same, the same sculpture could look like a pained person, a strong person, a pensive person. A- and he did that on purpose-
20. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  That's art
21. TNTrevor Noah
  ... because he wanted you to feel... He al- he always said, "From every angle, I've made a different sculpture."
22. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  Yeah.
23. TNTrevor Noah
  And so-
24. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  That's true art
25. TNTrevor Noah
  ... thinking of it, yeah, thinking of it through that lens.
26. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And, and-
27. TNTrevor Noah
  That's all you have to ask yourself in your world, basically, is the system you're in, does it allow you to look at the sculpture from a different angle? If it doesn't, you should probably go and look at this website, download BITE, and then see what happens.
28. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  And The Influence Continuum. One last thing. I know we're going over, but-
29. TNTrevor Noah
  No, no, no
30. SHDr. Steven Hassan
  ... beware certainty.

Episode duration: 1:50:21

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Intro

“Mankind Is Asleep” And Why That Hooks Us

How Do You Even Say Hassan?

How I Got Recruited Into The Moonies

The Vietnam Draft And A Lucky Number

From Hating Nixon To Fasting For Him

Love Bombing On A College Campus

The Van Ride To Tarrytown

Bait And Switch: “Are You Close Minded?”

The BITE Model Explained

Misdirection And Mind Control Tactics

How Cults Rebuild Your Identity

Three Days That Changed Everything

“The Messiah Might Be Coming”

The Question That Rewires Your Brain

Phobia Indoctrination And The Exorcist

Why Singing Together Feels So Powerful

From Skeptic To Inner Circle Leader

Were The Moonies Linked To The CIA?

Can You Be In An Online Cult?

The Car Crash That Broke The Spell

Chinese Communist Brainwashing Criteria

Is Trump A Cult Or Just Politics?

Why Desperation Fuels Authoritarianism

The Danger Of Absolute Certainty

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