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What Now? With Trevor NoahIs Elon Musk the Ultimate Scam Artist? with Max Chafkin | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast
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Elon, Inc. and why Musk matters
Trevor Noah opens with remarks on scam artists and then welcomes Max Chafkin, host of the Elon, Inc. podcast. Chafkin explains that Musk's cultural reach and his closeness to Trump made the subject far bigger than anyone expected.
- •Noah jokes about Musk's Mars prediction and Trump's egg-price promise
- •Chafkin and his team worried at first there wouldn't be enough material for a Musk podcast
- •Musk became Trump's top campaign donor and a de facto senior advisor
- •Chafkin first met Musk around 2007 and has been surprised by his recent transformation
Who the tech elite are and the PayPal Mafia
Noah asks who counts among the tech elite. Chafkin lists the main figures, describes the PayPal Mafia network, and traces Thiel's early backing of Trump and an attack on the administrative state that Musk now continues.
- •Chafkin names Musk, Thiel, Zuckerberg, Bezos, Andreessen and David Sacks
- •The PayPal Mafia self-identifies as an influence network
- •Thiel was the first tech figure to back Trump and gave over a million dollars after Access Hollywood
- •Musk is supercharging what Thiel did behind the scenes
Why Elon: wealth, influence and an edgy persona
Christiana Mbakwe asks why Chafkin chose Musk as a subject. He cites Musk's wealth, his companies, his cultural pull, and a long habit of provocation that earned him media coverage.
- •Musk is the richest person and controls Tesla and SpaceX
- •He has a captivated following and a complicated personal life with at least 14 children
- •His past fights, like the one with the SEC, show he was always edgy
- •Like Trump, he uses transgressive statements to win attention
Silicon Valley's political shift and the Obama-Musk story
Noah asks whether Silicon Valley really shifted from progressive to right-wing. Chafkin says both: the region always had a conservative military strain, and Obama embraced Musk and clean tech, with government money helping Tesla and SpaceX.
- •Silicon Valley began as a pro-military Cold War industry
- •Tesla was saved by a Department of Energy loan under Obama
- •SpaceX's early money came largely from government contracts, including a NASA deal
- •Tech leaders follow the political vibe, moving toward Obama then Trump
Biden's snub and the turn in Musk
The hosts and Chafkin discuss why tech leaders disliked Biden and whether leaving Musk out of the White House EV summit pushed him toward Trump. Chafkin calls it the start of this version of Musk, alongside other personal factors, though he relays the Biden team's defense.
- •Biden's politics centered on organized labor and American manufacturing
- •Biden promoted GM and Ford, which offended Musk
- •Noah believes the EV summit snub was a deliberate slight
- •Chafkin adds Musk's trans daughter and COVID restrictions as other factors
Erratic behavior, ketamine and unchecked billionaire power
The conversation turns to power and wealth without precedent, and to Musk's erratic behavior. Chafkin notes Musk has acknowledged ketamine use and talks openly about his demons, while Noah compares billionaire outbursts to his bipolar grandfather, who had no wealth to remove limits.
- •Musk both wields cultural control and personally polices his mentions
- •Chafkin says Musk has acknowledged a ketamine prescription but he has no special knowledge
- •Musk's long hours and constant tweeting stand out more than drug use
- •Noah notes Trump, Kanye and Musk share 3 AM rant patterns, and wealth removes the usual barriers
- •Chafkin says breaking rules is part of the tech elite's ideology
Peter Thiel: background and why he backed Trump
Noah asks who Thiel is and why some see him as a puppet master. Chafkin covers his PayPal and Palantir roots, his conservative campus background, and the reasons he backed Trump: opposition to political correctness, a wish to break the old order, and opportunism.
- •Thiel co-founded PayPal and Palantir and was an early Facebook investor
- •He began with a right-wing Stanford newspaper attacking political correctness
- •Trump's willingness to say edgy things appealed to Thiel
- •Backing Trump was a high-risk, high-reward bet, and Chafkin says Musk reasoned similarly
Oligarchy, Tesla and trade-offs of backing Trump
Noah compares tech backing of Trump to businessmen in developing nations backing candidates. He asks why Musk supports Trump's attacks on EVs, and Chafkin calls it oligarchy while doubting the payoff.
- •Noah says business-politics ties are now blatant in America
- •Subsidy cuts would hurt Tesla's competitors more than Tesla
- •Chafkin says the playbook resembles oligarchy but the US still has democratic checks
- •He says Trump may not be able to simply write Musk a large check because of Congress and voters
How much is enough? Billionaire motives and fragile wealth
Mbakwe asks why people who already have so much want more. Chafkin cites David Sacks's argument that rich people don't need to be corrupt, then notes Musk's wealth is mostly illiquid and interlinked, and Noah says status and power drive these men.
- •Sacks argues a rich person has no need to be corrupt
- •Chafkin says Musk's roughly $300 billion is mostly illiquid Tesla and SpaceX stock
- •The companies do business with each other so a fall could cascade
- •Noah says money becomes power and access, with presidents desperate to take your call
Is Musk a scam artist or a bullshit artist?
Noah says much of Musk feels like a scam, citing unmet self-driving promises and a Trump comparison. Chafkin reframes it as a reality distortion field and bullshit artistry, noting Musk sells products before they exist yet has delivered many successes, and Noah compares the risk to Elizabeth Holmes.
- •Noah ties Musk's valuation to promises that are not delivered
- •Chafkin calls it a reality distortion field and Musk an amazing marketer
- •Tesla presells cars that haven't been built
- •Noah compares the risk to Elizabeth Holmes and Bernie Madoff
- •Chafkin says Musk has succeeded beyond his dreams, but it is never enough
The video game lie as a red flag
Noah explains why Musk's claim to be a top video game player offended him, calling it a thief versus a kleptomaniac. Chafkin agrees it was naked deception that offended his young male fans and wonders if it was a turning point.
- •Noah says gaming was a refuge for people who weren't good at other things
- •Musk used his gaming claim to boost his image on Joe Rogan's show
- •Musk later said he gets someone else to play for him
- •Chafkin says Musk is becoming a negative symbol, and the video game lie may have been a turning point
South African roots and the government-business playbook
Mbakwe asks about the South African connection among these figures. Chafkin traces Thiel's childhood in Namibia and Musk's shifting apartheid story, while Noah argues they learned a model in which business and government help each other and sees Musk's Starlink dispute as personal.
- •Thiel's father worked at a uranium mine in apartheid-era Namibia
- •Chafkin says Thiel's classmates recall pro-apartheid arguments, though Thiel denies this
- •Musk once cited apartheid as a reason he left but now emphasizes white farmers' property rights
- •Noah says Starlink's blocked launch under ownership rules may have fed Musk's hostility
- •Noah sees funding disruptors worldwide, including Germany, as a lever strategy
End goals: Thiel's hedge and Musk's quest for dominance
Noah asks what the tech elite's end goal might be. Chafkin says Thiel is more calculating, with ties to JD Vance, while Musk needs endless crisis and wants far greater wealth and dominance, with voters and democracy as the check.
- •Thiel has not gone all in on Trump and has positioned himself via JD Vance
- •Thiel was Vance's main donor in his Senate campaign
- •Musk wants to sell more cars and rockets and has said Tesla should be worth $30 trillion
- •Chafkin says controlling the world isn't the likeliest outcome, but it's what Musk pushes for
- •Chafkin says voters and democracy must restrain him
Publisher timestamps
- 0:00Intro
- 1:05Introduction to Max Chafkin and podcast backgroundRead this chapter from 1:07
- 4:00Defining the tech elite and their connectionsRead this chapter
- 14:20Peter Thiel's background and influenceRead this chapter
- 25:00Discussion of Musk's erratic behavior and wealth
- 30:10Trump's relationship with tech leaders
- 41:30Understanding billionaire motivations
- 56:00South African influence on Musk's worldviewRead this chapter
- 1:02:30Elon Musk's global business strategyRead this chapter
- 1:07:00Future predictions for tech oligarchs
