Katie Couric: Why Facts Aren’t Enough

Katie Couric 0:00 [upbeat music]

Katie Couric 0:04 Who

Katie Couric 0:05 is doing the news i-

Katie Couric 0:07 in South Africa? It-

Trevor Noah 0:07 So, so in South Africa, there's the South African Broadcasting Corporation,

Trevor Noah 0:11 which is similar

Trevor Noah 0:12 to the BBC, right? In that it's state-funded and-

Eugene 0:15 Modeled after the BBC,

Eugene 0:16 yeah

Trevor Noah 0:16 ... yeah, it's modeled off the BBC-

Katie Couric 0:17 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 0:17 ... and then it's state-funded. People pay a, a

Trevor Noah 0:20 fee, you know, for having a TV. It's like a nominal

Trevor Noah 0:22 fee, and that basically goes to funding it, um, and, and their reporting.

Trevor Noah 0:27 Then we have a few independent stations as well, but none of them have a

Trevor Noah 0:31 clear i-

Katie Couric 0:32 Ideological bent?

Trevor Noah 0:33 No, no, no. That, that would

Trevor Noah 0:34 be... I think most people agree, that would be crazy. Like, we wouldn't-

Eugene 0:37 Slowly getting there, no?

Trevor Noah 0:37 We wouldn't... We just-

Katie Couric 0:38 Like,

Katie Couric 0:39 there's not the pro-apartheid network?

Trevor Noah 0:41 [laughs]

Eugene 0:43 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 0:43 Oh, my goodness, Katie. Can you imagine?

Eugene 0:46 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 0:46 The pro-apartheid network.

Eugene 0:49 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 0:49 Oh, my goodness.

Trevor Noah 0:50 What a great idea.

Katie Couric 0:51 The PAN?

Trevor Noah 0:52 [laughs]

Eugene 0:53 [laughs]

Katie Couric 0:53 Hi, we're... Welcome to PAN.

Trevor Noah 0:58 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 0:59 Oh, wow.

Eugene 0:59 You are my replacement.

Trevor Noah 1:01 Oh, wow.

Eugene 1:01 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:02 What a

Trevor Noah 1:03 fantastic premise.

Trevor Noah 1:07 [upbeat music]

Trevor Noah 1:09 This is What Now? With Trevor Noah. [upbeat music]

Katie Couric 1:22 Oh, this is gonna be fun.

Eugene 1:23 So yesterday,

Eugene 1:24 yesterday we wore, both

Eugene 1:26 wore cardigans.

Katie Couric 1:27 Yeah.

Eugene 1:28 What a fashion disaster.

Trevor Noah 1:29 It was terrible.

Katie Couric 1:30 Was it?

Trevor Noah 1:30 Well, it wasn't a disaster.

Eugene 1:31 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:31 It was more-

Eugene 1:31 No

Trevor Noah 1:31 ... it looked too coordinated

Eugene 1:33 ... 100% a disaster.

Katie Couric 1:34 Oh, very Mr. Rogers. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:36 Yes, yes. Double Mr. Rogers.

Katie Couric 1:38 Yeah. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:38 That's what it looked like.

Eugene 1:39 No. So I was like, "No, it will never happen again." So today I had a backup

Eugene 1:42 plan. I was like, "If he's wearing brown, I'm covered."

Trevor Noah 1:45 Oh, you're gonna switch it out. Okay.

Katie Couric 1:48 I really like that jacket.

Trevor Noah 1:49 I don't know why you-

Katie Couric 1:50 Well, you both do kind of have a similar thing going.

Trevor Noah 1:52 I'm,

Trevor Noah 1:53 he's trying to avoid me-

Katie Couric 1:54 With kind of the over jacket and things

Trevor Noah 1:54 ... and I'm trying to, I'm trying to fully, fully line up with him.

Eugene 1:57 [laughs]

Katie Couric 1:57 Is that right?

Eugene 1:58 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:58 I'm trying to make sure that our, our friendship is fully aligned.

Eugene 2:01 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 2:01 That's what I'm looking for. I don't want him to be able to escape me. [laughs]

Katie Couric 2:07 [laughs]

Eugene 2:07 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 2:07 I want people to be like, "Are you guys twins?"

Eugene 2:09 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 2:09 That's how closely aligned I want our dress sense to be.

Katie Couric 2:12 How often do you record your podcast?

Eugene 2:14 Uh-

Trevor Noah 2:14 When- whenever.

Katie Couric 2:15 Whenever?

Trevor Noah 2:15 Yeah.

Katie Couric 2:16 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 2:16 Whenever is whenever, so you know, we'll fly in from South Africa, and then we'll do a bunch of episodes. And we'll come in, or... But then sometimes we're doing them, you know, like one spaced out, and then it's-

Katie Couric 2:26 Yeah

Trevor Noah 2:26 ... but it's whenever.

Katie Couric 2:27 You don't feel that you need to have a specific cadence for-

Trevor Noah 2:30 No

Katie Couric 2:30 ... like to-

Eugene 2:31 No

Katie Couric 2:31 ... when people expect it?

Trevor Noah 2:31 No, not necessarily.

Katie Couric 2:32 No?

Trevor Noah 2:33 No. What's, what's your cadence now in life? What are you-

Katie Couric 2:35 Well, we do sort of a, a tranche of them, if you will. You know, uh, we have-

Trevor Noah 2:40 Tranche. I like that word.

Katie Couric 2:40 We ha- [laughs] we have sort of, you know, a s- uh, when does... A season. But then-

Trevor Noah 2:46 Yeah

Katie Couric 2:46 ... we're not really doing seasons as much because I'm really responding mostly to news-

Trevor Noah 2:51 Right

Katie Couric 2:52 ... as it happens. So you know, it's funny, you guys, 'cause I, e- every platform I do different stuff.

Trevor Noah 2:59 Yeah.

Katie Couric 2:59 Like you.

Trevor Noah 2:59 Yeah, I've seen that. Yeah.

Katie Couric 3:00 You know, you have to be kind of multi-platform. So like tomorrow I'm doing a Substack show. Uh-

Trevor Noah 3:06 Wow.

Katie Couric 3:06 Yeah. Uh, which I do once a week. And then I do the podcast/videocast.

Trevor Noah 3:12 Right. Right.

Katie Couric 3:12 And then, you know, um, yeah, I think that's primary. Then we have a newsletter and sometimes I do just kind of straight to camera reports on Instagram. You know, like I explain what the SAFE Act really is.

Trevor Noah 3:28 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 3:29 Um-

Trevor Noah 3:29 I think I saw one of those about, I feel like it was about Iran or something. What, uh, how-

Katie Couric 3:34 It might've been about the Pentagon-

Trevor Noah 3:36 Yes. Maybe, maybe

Katie Couric 3:36 ... and journalism-

Trevor Noah 3:37 Yeah, yeah. Yes

Katie Couric 3:37 ... and what they're doing-

Trevor Noah 3:37 I think there was some... Yep, yep

Katie Couric 3:38 ... and how they're trying to keep journalists out of the Pentagon.

Trevor Noah 3:41 Yep.

Katie Couric 3:41 There's so much misinformation, so I just, I just try to kind of give the facts and, like, the timeline of-

Trevor Noah 3:48 Yeah

Katie Couric 3:48 ... what happened at the Pentagon and why they were-

Trevor Noah 3:50 Hmm

Katie Couric 3:50 ... kicking some outlets out and bringing other outlets in. And, um, you know, just I think there's so much information assaulting people every minute that sometimes I just try to say, "Hey, this is what the SAFE Act does," or, "This is why they're looking at redistricting in Virginia."

Trevor Noah 4:11 Yeah.

Katie Couric 4:11 Let me give you a little bit of the backstory so you understand, 'cause I think p- it's, it's really hard to process everything, don't you think?

Trevor Noah 4:19 There's too, there's too much of everything everywhere all the time. I, I, I, I, I always think to myself, we think that we should judge people because they're uninformed, and I think we should actually process it a completely different way. I think people have too much information.

Katie Couric 4:35 Hmm. I agree.

Trevor Noah 4:36 And a lot of that, you, you, you, you just aren't able to parse the information. Is it good? Is it bad? Where does it come from? Where should it come from? Like back in the day, I mean, you were, you were, you were-

Eugene 4:44 How, how long is-

Trevor Noah 4:46 What?

Eugene 4:46 'Cause these things happen all the time, Katie. He'll say statements as if he was there during George Washington era.

Katie Couric 4:52 [laughs]

Eugene 4:53 And he would say, "Back in the day," so it's my job to save you from the... How, how long is back in the day?

Trevor Noah 4:58 This is-

Eugene 4:58 Give us a timeline of-

Trevor Noah 4:59 This is a... Actually, we, we have o- one of-

Katie Couric 5:02 I, I am the f- I am the physical manifestation of back in the day.

Eugene 5:07 Of back in the day. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 5:07 [laughs]

Katie Couric 5:07 Yes. It is, it is me, Eugene.

Eugene 5:10 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 5:10 [laughs]

Katie Couric 5:11 I... That, that will be my new chyron.

Eugene 5:13 [laughs]

Katie Couric 5:13 Katie Couric, back in the day.

Trevor Noah 5:17 Back in the day.

Eugene 5:17 Back in the day. [laughs]

Katie Couric 5:17 Because that's me.

Trevor Noah 5:19 No, but you were, you saw... I, I mean, I would argue that you came from an, like, like a golden age of news-

Eugene 5:28 Hmm

Trevor Noah 5:28 ... in the United States. When we think to a time of news, you are from that era. And then you rose to become one of the superstars of that era. And then I don't want to sound too, um, you know, pessimistic about it, but I almost feel like you've, you've also seen it sort of come to an end in some ways.

Katie Couric 5:46 Oh, yeah. Definitely. I think, well, you know, I guess I think most people m- might look back on the era of Walter Cronkite-

Trevor Noah 5:56 Yes.

Eugene 5:56 Hmm

Katie Couric 5:56 ... you know, back that long ago as the golden era of TV news. Of course, it was an era, era when, you know, most of the newscasters and reporters were white men.

Trevor Noah 6:07 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 6:07 Right? And not diverse at all. But there were just a handful, a very small group of authoritative figures-

Trevor Noah 6:17 Right

Katie Couric 6:18 ... who you went to and you believed.

Eugene 6:20 The trusted people.

Katie Couric 6:21 Trusted people.

Eugene 6:22 In inverted commas, yeah.

Katie Couric 6:23 And, and, and it's interesting. I was thinking the other day about Walter Cronkite, uh, when he said, talked about Vietnam-

Eugene 6:31 Mm

Katie Couric 6:31 ... honestly, and talked about how it wasn't a winnable war. Whatever he said specifically. And LBJ said, "If we've lost Walter Cronkite, we've lost America."

Eugene 6:41 Wow.

Katie Couric 6:42 And you know, I think that I was actually thinking about that because there was a modern-day example, which now I can't remember. But it just, these people had such, there was so much trust-

Eugene 6:55 Yeah

Katie Couric 6:55 ... in these figures. And similarly with a handful of newspapers, with The Washington Post, which I read ev- every morning growing up. Actually, my dad read it, and I watched him at the breakfast table. [laughs] But you know, um-

Trevor Noah 7:07 Yeah, that's, that's how part of life it was

Katie Couric 7:09 ... it was, it was, it was believed and trusted. And then, of course, you had this evolution. You had 24-hour news networks. You had cable. You had then the bifurcation of liberal cable versus conservative.

Eugene 7:23 Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 7:24 You had Fox News-

Eugene 7:25 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 7:25 ... Phil Donahue.

Eugene 7:25 That's what you guys have over here.

Trevor Noah 7:27 Yeah, we don't have that.

Eugene 7:28 Yeah, yeah, we don't have it. It's just news is just news. You guys have these kind of people's news and these other people's news.

Katie Couric 7:33 And how do you ... Who is doing the news-

Eugene 7:36 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 7:36 ... in, in South Africa?

Trevor Noah 7:37 So, so in South Africa, there's the South African Broadcasting Corporation, which is similar to the BBC, right, in that it's state-funded.

Eugene 7:45 Modeled after the BBC, actually.

Trevor Noah 7:45 Yeah, it's modeled after the BBC.

Eugene 7:47 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 7:47 And then it's state-funded. People pay a, a fee, you know, for having a TV. It's like a nominal fee, and that basically goes to funding it, um, and, and their reporting. Then we have a few independent stations as well, but none of them have a clear-

Katie Couric 8:02 Ideological bent?

Trevor Noah 8:03 No, no, no. That, that would be ... I think most people agree that would be crazy. Like, we wouldn't-

Eugene 8:07 It's not getting there now

Trevor Noah 8:07 ... we wouldn't ... We just-

Katie Couric 8:08 Like, there's not the pro-apartheid network?

Eugene 8:11 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 8:13 [laughs] Oh my goodness, Katie.

Katie Couric 8:14 [laughs]

Eugene 8:14 Can you imagine the pro-apartheid network? [laughs]

Trevor Noah 8:19 [laughs]

Eugene 8:19 Oh my goodness, what a great idea.

Katie Couric 8:21 The PAN?

Eugene 8:23 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 8:23 [laughs]

Katie Couric 8:23 Hi, we're ... Welcome to PAN.

Eugene 8:27 [laughs] Oh, wow.

Trevor Noah 8:29 You are my replacement.

Eugene 8:31 Oh, wow.

Trevor Noah 8:31 [laughs]

Eugene 8:32 What a fantastic premise.

Katie Couric 8:34 But I ha-

Eugene 8:34 [laughs]

Katie Couric 8:34 I do ha- I do have a question. So is-

Eugene 8:37 I love it

Katie Couric 8:37 ... there criticism-

Eugene 8:38 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 8:38 ... from the, the population-

Eugene 8:41 Definitely

Katie Couric 8:41 ... uh, that feels, or segment of the population, that feels that the news as it's presented in South Africa is biased?

Eugene 8:50 Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Katie Couric 8:50 And, and, and, and how big is the outcry, and what is the response by the, by the publications or the networks?

Eugene 8:59 What would you say?

Katie Couric 8:59 Or the network, I guess, singular.

Eugene 9:02 So in South Africa, the debate will always be of the democracy, will always be would a white party rule in South Africa ever again? So there's a party called the Democratic Alliance, which is leadership is white. But obviously they've always been opposing the ANC, which is majority Black. So sometimes news readers and some other news channels would favor stories that the DA are doing. But just because they're in the news, they would look like they're being favored, right?

Katie Couric 9:29 Right.

Eugene 9:29 Does it make sense?

Katie Couric 9:29 Yes, yes.

Eugene 9:30 Then the people on Twitter, obviously, 'cause they follow the same politicians and they get to see what they're doing, when the news comes on once a day about that specific politician, it looks like it suits the agenda of the politician.

Katie Couric 9:41 Right.

Eugene 9:42 But we were having this discussion the other day. We were saying the newsmakers are now trying to make their own news. If something sells, they'll go with it. If people are talking about it, if they see it on social media, they'll obviously go for it. But if the other party's doing nothing on social media, there's nothing to talk about. Does it make sense?

Katie Couric 9:59 Yeah. So, so are you saying that politicians are now bypassing news altogether and just speaking directly-

Eugene 10:05 In many ways they are, yeah

Katie Couric 10:07 ... to people and co-opting whatever message-

Eugene 10:08 The news picks that up

Katie Couric 10:09 ... seems to be-

Eugene 10:09 Exactly

Katie Couric 10:10 ... um, you know, trending, if you will-

Eugene 10:12 100%

Katie Couric 10:12 ... at any moment in time.

Eugene 10:14 So-

Katie Couric 10:14 But is it ... How, how divisive is it, uh, in terms of-

Trevor Noah 10:18 It's not like A- no, it's not like the US

Katie Couric 10:19 ... no, no.

Eugene 10:20 No, no.

Trevor Noah 10:20 No, no, no. It's nowhere close to the US.

Eugene 10:21 No.

Trevor Noah 10:21 Nowhere close.

Katie Couric 10:22 And why do you think that is?

Trevor Noah 10:24 Again, I think it's just because it, it, in most-

Katie Couric 10:29 Is it leadership?

Trevor Noah 10:29 In most countries I've been to, people have some form of criticism for the news, right?

Katie Couric 10:34 Mm.

Trevor Noah 10:34 So when I'm in England, people complain about the BBC. The BBC will even send out, um, regular sort of polls-

Katie Couric 10:41 Questionnaires, yeah

Trevor Noah 10:42 ... and questionnaires to its, to its audience. "Do you feel like we're not covering this enough? Do you feel like we should be covering this more?" Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And people will complain about the BBC in everything. How did they handle the Epstein files and Prince Andrew, and how did they handle Israel-Palestine, and how have they handled ... People will complain about that. In most places I've been to, people complain about the news in some way, shape, or form.

Eugene 11:02 Mm.

Trevor Noah 11:04 In the US, what's different is your news pre- presents different realities.

Katie Couric 11:09 Right. Mm.

Trevor Noah 11:10 That's something that I don't see in most places-

Eugene 11:13 Mm

Trevor Noah 11:14 ... where it's, like, completely ... I've flipped between channels sometimes just to see-

Katie Couric 11:19 Oh, me too. I do that often

Trevor Noah 11:20 ... it's pretty wild how it's like either one, one's news- news station is covering it and the other one isn't completely-

Eugene 11:28 Yeah

Trevor Noah 11:28 ... or they're presenting completely different stories about the same thing.

Katie Couric 11:35 And perspectives.

Trevor Noah 11:35 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katie Couric 11:35 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 11:35 And not even perspectives. Perspectives-

Eugene 11:37 Ideology

Trevor Noah 11:37 ... would almost be like-

Eugene 11:38 Yeah

Trevor Noah 11:39 ... um, the Artemis rocket has t- has taken off. It is flying around the Earth. Why are we wasting money on this? This is the greatest thing for mankind. Those are perspectives.

Katie Couric 11:46 Right.

Trevor Noah 11:48 The one in America is like, it's like, uh, the rocket has taken o- there's no rocket.

Katie Couric 11:53 Yeah. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 11:53 Wait, what?

Katie Couric 11:53 Or this didn't even happen.

Trevor Noah 11:55 Yes.

Katie Couric 11:55 Right?

Trevor Noah 11:56 Yeah.

Katie Couric 11:56 This didn't happen. This is not true. Or as you said, you know, Trevor, basically just ignoring it altogether.

Trevor Noah 12:04 Completely.

Eugene 12:04 Mm.

Trevor Noah 12:04 Yeah.

Katie Couric 12:05 Completely ignoring it.

Eugene 12:06 Mm.

Katie Couric 12:06 It's, it's wild. I was thinking about the Walter Cronkite thing the other day because of Tucker Carlson, and I was thinking, is Donald Trump- Saying to himself, "If I've lost Tucker Carlson"

Eugene 12:18 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 12:19 ..."I've lost America." But I think he's not because Tucker Carlson, as powerful a voice that, that he has, I think, you know, is just a tiny slice of MAGA world.

Eugene 12:34 You think he's a tiny slice?

Katie Couric 12:36 Well, I don't know. When I think about, I have to look at his viewers, but I don't think he is... I don't think, I don't know. I, I guess the, the time will tell whether he and other defectors, right, like Megyn Kelly and all these other-

Eugene 12:50 Right

Katie Couric 12:50 ... people. I'm not sure if Donald Trump enthusiasts will follow their lead. I don't know. What do you guys think?

Trevor Noah 13:00 So there's a strange phenomenon that I've noticed in and around Trump world, and it's that there's a, there's sort of a separation between Trump and his actions, and I still don't fully understand how to process it.

Eugene 13:15 Mm.

Trevor Noah 13:15 But I've noticed many people who are Trump supporters will criticize Trump's actions, but then somewhere in their sentences they'll say, "But I like Trump."

Katie Couric 13:26 Or, "But he's better than the other guy."

Trevor Noah 13:28 Yeah, or but, but, but in some way they'll, they'll basically-

Katie Couric 13:31 Personalize it.

Eugene 13:32 Mm.

Trevor Noah 13:32 Yeah, and they'll, they'll-

Katie Couric 13:33 Well, that's why they call it the cult of personality, right? They don't call it the cult of policy.

Trevor Noah 13:37 This is true.

Eugene 13:37 Mm. [laughs]

Katie Couric 13:38 Right?

Trevor Noah 13:38 This is true. Yeah, but what, what they'll do-

Eugene 13:40 Mm

Trevor Noah 13:40 ... interestingly is they will, they'll almost excuse him from his actions, and when he does something that they do not like... Okay, so let's use an example, a concrete example. When Donald Trump posted a picture of himself-

Katie Couric 13:55 As Jesus

Trevor Noah 13:55 ... like an AI generated image of him as Jesus healing the sick or healing people, when his base was, like, really, really, really angry about that.

Eugene 14:04 Mm.

Trevor Noah 14:04 Understandably. They were like, "How, what are you doing? This is blasphemous." The amount of people in the comments of his post-

Eugene 14:11 Mm

Trevor Noah 14:11 ... saying, "Take this down. This is not you. Um, I love everything you do. This is, this is not... Something must have gone wrong here. Mr. President, please, someone has your phone."

Eugene 14:23 So people were defending-

Trevor Noah 14:25 Y- y- yeah

Eugene 14:25 ... that action.

Katie Couric 14:26 They weren't defending him.

Trevor Noah 14:27 They weren't defending the action.

Katie Couric 14:28 They were advising him-

Trevor Noah 14:29 Okay

Eugene 14:29 ... not to do that

Katie Couric 14:30 ... and they were incredulous that he had done that, and they were convinced that he had made a mistake.

Trevor Noah 14:35 Yes, that's what I mean.

Katie Couric 14:36 That it wasn't intentional.

Trevor Noah 14:37 But they had separated his mistake from him-

Eugene 14:39 Mm

Trevor Noah 14:39 ... which I find very interesting. Do, do you get what I'm saying?

Eugene 14:42 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 14:44 Same thing goes with Iran. People will go-

Eugene 14:46 Mm

Trevor Noah 14:46 ..."This president said he's not gonna go to war. The, I voted for him because he said he's not gonna be dropping bombs on other countries. I voted for him because he said the price of gas was gonna come down." And then you're like, "So what does that mean for you?" And they go, "Well, clearly he, he, he's being influenced by the wrong people and, and, you know, this is not what he wants." I'm like, "What-"

Katie Couric 15:07 Or they'll say he got rid of a terrible regime, and he was the only person who had the balls to do it.

Trevor Noah 15:16 Oh, yes. Yeah.

Katie Couric 15:16 And we're not gonna be in a long protracted conflict, and, uh, what he did... I, I, I think there's this macho undercurrent, too.

Eugene 15:26 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 15:26 You know, this, this display of raw power-

Eugene 15:30 Strong man

Katie Couric 15:30 ... that, that people are attracted to as well. And while they may have, have doubts about the action and are not necessarily thinking about the geopolitical ramifications-

Trevor Noah 15:42 Yeah

Katie Couric 15:42 ... there's something about sort of the brute force, the Pete Hegseth, you know, the ethos of the military that, i- the US is once again proving who's in charge-

Trevor Noah 15:53 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Katie Couric 15:53 ... that is, that is-

Trevor Noah 15:53 Right

Katie Couric 15:54 ... I think very sort of subconsciously or consciously appealing to some of these folks as well.

Trevor Noah 16:00 It, it, it's definitely that. And, and on top of all of it, I blame part of it on the sort of sportsification of politics in America, in that in America politics has become the way sports is in that you have a team.

Eugene 16:22 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 16:23 You stick to that team forever. You ... A- and again, please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I, I distinctly remember watching American television and watching American people, regular people get interviewed about their lives, about everything. I would commonly hear people say the phrase, you know, "Well, my mom was a Republican, my dad was a Democrat." "Oh, my dad was a Democrat, my mom was a Republican." But they'd, they'd, like, say all the time, people would talk about how their families... And then they wouldn't even say was, they would say voted.

Katie Couric 16:49 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 16:50 You know? They'd go like, "My dad voted Republican in the last election, and..." Oh, and people would say that on the news. I'd watch interviews, they'd be like, "Well, I voted Democrat last time, but I'm not happy with things, so I'm, I'm gonna vote Republican this time because I'm not pre-" But it, it was an action as opposed to an identity.

Eugene 17:03 Yeah.

Katie Couric 17:04 Right. And I was gonna say, I think that is so spot on, that it has become so tribal, and you're, we're talking about why people sort of stick with Trump no matter what. I think changing or pivoting or reconsidering is an assault to their whole identity.

Trevor Noah 17:25 I think to all of us, to be honest.

Katie Couric 17:27 I, I think so, too.

Trevor Noah 17:28 I, like, I c- I, I will say for myself, if there is something that I have tied my identity to and that thing falls in some way, my first instinct is to defend it-

Eugene 17:41 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 17:41 ... as opposed to now questioning my worldview and beliefs. Do, do you know what I mean?

Katie Couric 17:46 Oh, totally. I think it's deeply psychological. I think it's primal-

Trevor Noah 17:50 Yeah

Katie Couric 17:51 ... and very visceral that... I mean, I find myself that way, too, because if... You know, although I try to check myself. You know, my feed is full of people who agree with me, basically. I try to look at other points of view as well, but my, you know, talk about confirmation bias. On the other hand, this isn't like Mitt Romney and Barack Obama.

Trevor Noah 18:18 No. No, it's not.

Katie Couric 18:19 You know? It is, it is not- It, it is, it is not normal. And so whenever I feel like, "Gosh, am I rooting against Trump? Does that mean I'm rooting against America?"

Trevor Noah 18:32 America. Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 18:33 And, and I, I question myself, and I question my emotional response to some of the things that happen.

Trevor Noah 18:39 Yeah.

Katie Couric 18:39 But I also think this person is dangerous, corrupt, and, um, you know, it's very difficult for me. And then I'm like, "I need to note when he does something positive," right? Like, even mentally.

Trevor Noah 18:59 Hmm. Okay.

Katie Couric 18:59 I need to be more receptive, "Oh, this was a good thing."

Trevor Noah 19:03 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 19:03 Right?

Trevor Noah 19:04 Right.

Katie Couric 19:04 And I think it's hard for many of us who have been inundated with the bad things that he's been doing, the bad choices, the lack of, um, respect for the rule of law and the Constitution, the, the self-enrichment of him and his family. I mean, the list goes on and on, the cheering when Robert Mueller dies.

Trevor Noah 19:25 Yeah.

Katie Couric 19:25 You know, just the so many distasteful things that, that, that it's hard to kind of even have that little crack to say, "Oh, that was probably a good idea, a good policy."

Trevor Noah 19:40 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 19:40 "And maybe that's, that's helpful." Whether it's, like, you know, sort of in the first term, the criminal justice reform stuff even.

Trevor Noah 19:47 Yeah, yeah, right.

Katie Couric 19:48 Right? You know, which arguably was a good thing.

Trevor Noah 19:51 Yeah.

Katie Couric 19:51 You know, getting rid of, uh, what, minimum, maximum-

Trevor Noah 19:54 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah

Katie Couric 19:54 ... or whatever, and, and people who were being incarcerated. But then Kim Kardashian [laughs] got involved, and, you know, you think, "Well, that's a positive thing."

Trevor Noah 20:04 Yes.

Katie Couric 20:05 But the negative stuff, so it's like a tsunami of negative [laughs] stuff. It's hard to kind of c- g- you know, come up and, and, and gasp for air and say, "Oh, that's good." And then you're, like, sucked under again-

Trevor Noah 20:18 Right, right

Katie Couric 20:18 ... by the bad stuff.

Trevor Noah 20:20 I, I'm, I'm surprised that you even experienced that 'cause I- I've always assumed incorrectly that journalists pull, you know, their inspiration and ideas from a, from a, from a different spiritual realm.

Katie Couric 20:32 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 20:32 Does, does that make sense?

Katie Couric 20:33 In fact-

Trevor Noah 20:33 Like, I always assume that w- we the people who are reading the news are just reading the news, and then journalists are sort of on this ephemeral plane where news is, is, is merely, like, a d- a different idea to you. But it, but it's, it's interesting that you are in it. So I'd love to know, how do you then, or do you even think of putting on different hats as, like, a, a, a person, a citizen, and then a, a journalist? How do you ... Is it even possible to do that? Or do you, or do you conscient- or do you always have to remind yourself that you have all hats on at the same time?

Katie Couric 21:11 I mean, I think that I have become a citizen journalist.

Trevor Noah 21:15 Oh, interesting.

Katie Couric 21:15 I'm a citizen first now and a journalist second because I feel like it is such a perilous time and such a dangerous time that I am paying attention in a different way. And I think, you know, as I said, it's not just policy differences-

Trevor Noah 21:40 Yeah

Katie Couric 21:40 ... that we're evaluating here. It's not just saying, you know, uh, if you feel morally repulsed by the way ICE was behaving in Minneapolis-

Trevor Noah 21:52 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 21:52 ... as a citizen, that deeply offended me.

Trevor Noah 21:56 Mm.

Katie Couric 21:57 And I am not gonna both sides. Like, this is what they're doing. This is how the people of Minneapolis are reacting.

Trevor Noah 22:05 Yeah.

Katie Couric 22:06 I mean, I think looking back on it, even ICE defenders would admit, I would hope many, that it was out of control.

Trevor Noah 22:14 Yeah.

Katie Couric 22:15 Things were completely out of control in Minneapolis earlier this year. And so I am also someone who I feel has earned the privilege of at times, uh, experience, experiencing moral outrage at what I'm seeing. And I, I am not encumbered by, you know, cor- a corporate overlord saying, "You can't say that. You can't do that."

Trevor Noah 22:46 Was that, was that common in your previous job? Like, give me an understanding of what it's like. People often use, you know, phrases like the mainstream media, and they don't want you to ... W- w- what is your honest assessment or even experience of working in an environment where you are under a corporation and they ... How much do they decide what you are-

Katie Couric 23:10 Well, I think everything-

Trevor Noah 23:11 ... are gonna do?

Katie Couric 23:11 Everything ... Well, first of all, I think there was a lot of separation between sort of the companies and the news divisions. You know, you saw General Electric owned NBC-

Trevor Noah 23:23 Okay

Katie Couric 23:24 ... GE when I was there.

Trevor Noah 23:25 Yeah.

Katie Couric 23:25 And, you know, uh, there were times where if there was a story about GE, we would either not report it or say it's the parent company of NBC.

Trevor Noah 23:36 Okay. Okay.

Katie Couric 23:37 Um, and but, but for the most part, these corporations kept out- There was very clear, a very clear line-

Trevor Noah 23:45 Right

Katie Couric 23:45 ... between the corporation and the news division, and they didn't, they didn't mix.

Trevor Noah 23:51 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 23:52 And now obviously, there are quid pro quos happening [laughs] in corporate media-

Trevor Noah 23:59 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 24:00 ... and news divisions. So it is a completely different ball of wax. You ... It's like apples and oranges. I can't say, like, "This is how we did it back in the day," because everything has changed.

Trevor Noah 24:10 Oh.

Katie Couric 24:11 Trump is compa-

Trevor Noah 24:12 Okay

Katie Couric 24:12 ... is basically controlling these, uh, huge multimillion-dollar consolidation conglomerates, whatever you wanna call it, mergers, and they can't merge without The FCC and his administration giving them approval.

Trevor Noah 24:32 Yeah.

Katie Couric 24:33 So they're basically bowing down and saying, "We're gonna give you $16 million to, because the Kamala Harris interview was-

Trevor Noah 24:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right

Katie Couric 24:44 ... edited in a way that you didn't like," which was complete unadulterated bullshit. That case had no merit, but they gave him $16 million. Similarly ABC-

Trevor Noah 24:54 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 24:55 ... with George Stephanopoulos, $15 million because he said, uh, sexual assault, I think, instead of, or s- I, I think he said rape instead of sexual assault-

Trevor Noah 25:03 Right

Katie Couric 25:03 ... or whatever.

Trevor Noah 25:04 Right.

Katie Couric 25:04 And normally, I think back in the day, Katie Couric, back in the day-

Trevor Noah 25:09 [laughs]

Katie Couric 25:09 ... um, we, we would probably issue an on air apology-

Trevor Noah 25:13 Apology

Katie Couric 25:13 ... correction.

Trevor Noah 25:14 Correction, yeah.

Katie Couric 25:15 Um, but I don't think any time [laughs] I worked at a network would they pay somebody because they were afraid of the ramifications if they didn't.

Trevor Noah 25:26 You would, you would feel like it would be like a badge of honor, in fact. You know, I, like-

Katie Couric 25:31 A badge of honor to what?

Trevor Noah 25:33 To be, um, like sued by a person in the administration. Any, any, any administration. I, I always felt like journalists who came up against, like the government, I always felt that that was a badge of honor. We saw it in South Africa.

Katie Couric 25:48 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 25:49 The journalists who were arrested by the apartheid government, it was a badge of honor.

Katie Couric 25:53 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 25:53 You know, the journalists who were in war zones who were arrested by, you know, rebel factions or the governments that people were trying to overthrow, it was a badge of honor. It always used to be this badge of honor where it's like, "Oh, we are now going to stand our ground and show you."

Katie Couric 26:06 They're speaking truth to power.

Trevor Noah 26:07 Exactly.

Katie Couric 26:07 On the other hand, I think, you know, if journalists make mistakes-

Trevor Noah 26:11 Yeah

Katie Couric 26:11 ... right?

Trevor Noah 26:12 Oh, yeah, yeah. That's different

Katie Couric 26:13 ... and correct information incorrectly-

Trevor Noah 26:13 Yes, yes, yes

Katie Couric 26:14 ... um, or report it, uh, then, then I think that's how the, how the system works, right? And so I don't think you can say sort of carte blanche that or, or generalize that it's a badge of honor all the time. But, you know, it's totally different now, the way they're using their power-

Trevor Noah 26:37 Mm

Katie Couric 26:38 ... to suppress stories, to change how s- the framework of stories or, you know, how a story is positioned.

Trevor Noah 26:47 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 26:48 I was talking to a friend the other day about when CBS News did a 16-second reader on January 6th, and they were basically saying Hakeem Jeffries said this, Donald Trump said that.

Trevor Noah 26:59 Yeah.

Katie Couric 27:00 Now, if there's no universal understanding that January 6th was an insurrection-

Trevor Noah 27:06 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 27:06 ... that people were killed, uh, police officers-

Trevor Noah 27:09 Mm

Katie Couric 27:09 ... and yes, one protester-

Trevor Noah 27:11 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 27:11 ... but that it was an attempt to overturn an election [laughs] -

Trevor Noah 27:15 Right

Katie Couric 27:15 ... and, and disrupt the peaceful transfer of power-

Trevor Noah 27:18 And hang Mike Pence-

Katie Couric 27:19 And hang Mike Pence

Trevor Noah 27:20 ... because let's never forget that.

Katie Couric 27:21 And, Trevor-

Trevor Noah 27:21 Because they had a sign. They were like, "We're coming to hang Mike Pence." [laughs]

Katie Couric 27:23 And throw the election in Donald Trump's favor, then they're just, they're not being truthful.

Trevor Noah 27:30 Yeah. But I think-

Katie Couric 27:31 That is factually incorrect.

Eugene 27:33 I think the conflict for anyone who doesn't live in America is America has always gone into other countries to try and defend their democracies. And if people voted for this dispensation, aren't there mechanisms in the same constitution to quell anything that they don't like from the same dispensation?

Katie Couric 27:50 Yes. What? [laughs] I kind of understood that question.

Eugene 27:54 So if it's a democratic state-

Katie Couric 27:56 Yeah

Eugene 27:56 ... that is voted in by its citizens, surely there must be a mechanism within the constitution of the same state that can stop things that the people who voted don't like. Do you get what I mean?

Trevor Noah 28:07 It, it's, it's-

Eugene 28:08 If the president-

Trevor Noah 28:08 But it's a, it's a yes and no.

Eugene 28:09 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 28:09 That's the weird thing, right? So-

Katie Couric 28:11 Yeah. I mean, yes

Trevor Noah 28:11 ... the first, the first thing about elections-

Katie Couric 28:13 Certifying the election, right?

Trevor Noah 28:15 Yeah.

Katie Couric 28:15 And that's what was happening on Capitol Hill-

Trevor Noah 28:17 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 28:17 ... when this whole riot broke out. So I think you're right. There are steps that will ensure, right, a free and fair election. The question is, if those steps aren't followed by the frigging president of the [laughs] United States-

Trevor Noah 28:34 Yep

Katie Couric 28:35 ... where does that leave you?

Trevor Noah 28:37 But it's also weird.

Katie Couric 28:37 Mm.

Trevor Noah 28:38 Y- you know, to your question, it's like-

Katie Couric 28:39 Mm

Trevor Noah 28:41 ... one of the strange things about democracy is that you are buying something you do not yet have-

Katie Couric 28:49 Yeah

Trevor Noah 28:49 ... and you've never tested and you've never really owned.

Katie Couric 28:52 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 28:53 And you're, you're paying for it up front. So in many ways, I think, like, voting is similar to buying a house. You walk in, they show you around, and then you're like, "All right. I'll take it. For the next however many years of my life, this is for me." And then only when you sleep in it for a week do you go, "I think this shit is haunted." Do you know what I mean? [laughs]

Katie Couric 29:14 [laughs] Or-

Trevor Noah 29:14 You know? [laughs]

Katie Couric 29:14 ... you could have just rented.

Trevor Noah 29:15 Or maybe it's leaky. Yeah, you're like-

Katie Couric 29:16 Yeah

Trevor Noah 29:16 ... "What, what just happened here?" But I think that happens in democracy. We, we take that for granted as a system. It's, it's, it's maybe the best one we know right now.

Katie Couric 29:23 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 29:23 But I do think it's a little bit strange that we go, "Okay, Eugene, tell me your pitch." "Uh, uh, Trevor, I promise you pizza every Friday." "All right. I'll, I'll vote for this guy."

Katie Couric 29:32 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 29:32 And then Eugene comes in, and then he's like, "I don't like pizza."

Katie Couric 29:35 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 29:36 It's weird because I voted for you based on-

Katie Couric 29:39 Mm

Trevor Noah 29:39 ... like, I, I do think it is strange that there is no mechanism to hold politicians accountable for the thing-

Katie Couric 29:48 Yes, there are

Trevor Noah 29:48 ... they said they were going to do.

Katie Couric 29:49 Yes, there are.

Trevor Noah 29:49 What is that?

Katie Couric 29:50 They're called elections.

Trevor Noah 29:50 No, but that's ... No, no, no. You're-

Katie Couric 29:52 They're called the next election.

Trevor Noah 29:53 Yeah, but you see, that's too late.

Eugene 29:54 Yeah, but you have to wait.

Trevor Noah 29:54 That's too late. Okay, now, let's, let's use this analogy somewhere else. Imagine if you went to a car dealership and you said, "I wanna buy this SUV for my family."

Katie Couric 30:02 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 30:03 They go, "Yeah. Great. So seven-seater SUV for you and your family." You go, you sign it, you take it, you drive out of the lot. When you get home, there's two seats, and you're like, "What, what, what just happened?" And then you phone the dealership, and you're like, "Well, you said seven seats." And they're like, "Yeah, we just realized seven seats wasn't gonna work, so we switched it to a two-seater, and, um, you can switch it out in y- your next lease."

Katie Couric 30:24 Yeah. I think-

Trevor Noah 30:25 I still have to own this car

Katie Couric 30:26 ... I, I think what you're saying, there should be a better business bureau for the government.

Trevor Noah 30:30 I, I think there's a-

Katie Couric 30:31 Right?

Eugene 30:31 I think there should be a better replacement for democracy.

Trevor Noah 30:33 I think there could be.

Katie Couric 30:33 No.

Eugene 30:34 Yeah.

Katie Couric 30:34 What, what?

Trevor Noah 30:34 Yes, I think so. A-

Katie Couric 30:35 A better replacement for democracy?

Trevor Noah 30:37 For the way we run it, I think there could be.

Eugene 30:38 For the way, yeah.

Katie Couric 30:38 Okay. What?

Eugene 30:39 Because people assume- Well, I'll speak for my country. People assume ... First of all, in our country, people like to explain to people which they didn't know in this age of information, that we actually don't vote for the president. We vote for a party, and the party elects people, puts them in parliament. Parliamentarians in their different parties elect a president.

Trevor Noah 30:59 Yeah.

Eugene 30:59 So we don't choose who the president is. So that's the first part. But what we've done is, I think if democracy was real, we would have to be able to choose in real time all the time. You can't choose once.

Trevor Noah 31:10 See, this is why you're my guy.

Eugene 31:11 You can't choose once every four years.

Trevor Noah 31:12 This is why you're my guy.

Eugene 31:13 Because the-

Katie Couric 31:13 See, what you ... So, uh, every day a d- uh, an election?

Trevor Noah 31:16 This is why we wear the same clothes.

Katie Couric 31:18 So an election a day.

Eugene 31:18 You know-

Trevor Noah 31:18 This is why we dress the same.

Eugene 31:20 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 31:21 [laughs]

Eugene 31:21 Polymarketed. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 31:23 [laughs]

Eugene 31:24 So here's the thing. If you vote for a president, you vote for a party. The party elects a representative. The representative themselves in parliament elect a president. That person who's the president now elects people that he likes and trusts.

Trevor Noah 31:38 Yeah.

Eugene 31:38 And then they go on to elect people that they like and trust-

Trevor Noah 31:42 Right

Eugene 31:42 ... in different cabinet positions, in different ministries. So basically, what you've done is you've empowered an institution to create its own sub-institution.

Trevor Noah 31:51 Yes.

Eugene 31:51 And everyone puts people that they trust over and over and over. Local municipality suffers because people are always looking at the bigger picture, which is the president of the country. And no matter how many times when people are dissatisfied with service delivery, when the president says, "But I don't control anything in municipal level"

Trevor Noah 32:07 Yeah

Eugene 32:08 ... no one will believe them because people assume because you are on the ballot paper, we voted for you, right?

Katie Couric 32:14 Yeah.

Eugene 32:14 And also these mechanisms of lo- local elections and municipal elections and by-elections, they're never as advertised as the big Super Bowl of elections.

Trevor Noah 32:23 No, they're not.

Eugene 32:23 Which is once.

Trevor Noah 32:23 I mean, even here people don't vote on, at, on that level in the same way, right?

Eugene 32:27 Yeah, so I, I think people should be able to select the president, not from just the party, just select the individual, and then also have a say in the individuals that that individual selects.

Trevor Noah 32:38 So I ... Okay, can I, can I pitch you my idea on this?

Eugene 32:41 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 32:42 I actually think the biggest issue-

Eugene 32:44 Yeah

Trevor Noah 32:45 ... with politics is individuals.

Eugene 32:49 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 32:49 Let me try and explain this. When somebody goes up and starts a campaign-

Eugene 32:53 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 32:54 ... we know nothing about them. We do not know their ability or inability to do things for the most part.

Eugene 32:58 Worse, we don't know their friends-

Trevor Noah 33:00 This is true

Eugene 33:01 ... that they're gonna elect-

Trevor Noah 33:02 We don't know. This is true

Eugene 33:03 ... and put into po- They will elect their friends.

Trevor Noah 33:04 Yeah, yeah. They'll put people in-

Eugene 33:05 We elect them.

Trevor Noah 33:06 Yeah.

Katie Couric 33:06 Or where they're getting their money to run the campaign.

Eugene 33:08 Exactly.

Trevor Noah 33:08 There we go. You see? All of this.

Eugene 33:09 I went out when I came to back in the day.

Trevor Noah 33:12 [laughs] So, so I think, I think sometimes wh- when I'm trying to solve a problem, I try and go back to the original idea of what we were trying to solve, right?

Eugene 33:22 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 33:23 Why do we have representatives?

Eugene 33:25 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 33:25 I would argue the reason we have representatives in every system is because it was not feasible for all of us to be contributing or, or discussing how to do a thing.

Eugene 33:35 Mm.

Trevor Noah 33:35 So we said, "Hey, we, we live at this table. We are the table people. Uh, everyone at other tables also has decisions to make."

Eugene 33:43 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 33:44 "So why don't we send someone from this table? So Katie, you go represent us, please, at the National Table Convention-

Eugene 33:50 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 33:50 ... and tell us what other people from tables are thinking, but let them know that we like certain kinds of tables, please." That made sense.

Eugene 33:57 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 33:57 It made sense at a time when there was no internet. It made sense at a time when information couldn't just travel instantly. I think it makes a lot of sense, right?

Eugene 34:05 Yeah. When means of productions were controlled by a limited few.

Trevor Noah 34:07 Yeah. Completely.

Eugene 34:08 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 34:08 Completely. We now live in a world where I think we use all this great technology for, in my opinion, like trashy things. So-

Eugene 34:17 Like online betting.

Trevor Noah 34:18 Yeah, we have online ... We have, like, online sports betting.

Eugene 34:21 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 34:21 Instant, like, decisions and you can b- To do what? To, to bet on a game and then go broke, and then, you know, your family's destitute, and young men are, like, homeless and what. W- we have it for what? Voting on, like, a singing competition.

Eugene 34:35 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 34:36 Send us your votes now. That's instant.

Eugene 34:38 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 34:39 W- we've got amazing technology, but we use it for, like, the most gimmicky thing. Oh, put your opinion online. Imagine if ... I know this sounds crazy, but imagine if people could a la carte vote-

Eugene 34:51 Oh

Trevor Noah 34:51 ... digitally about things that a country's doing-

Eugene 34:54 Yes

Trevor Noah 34:54 ... instead of having it be one day to pick one person who's gonna make all the decisions.

Eugene 34:58 For four years.

Katie Couric 34:59 But having said that, you know, to really explore and analyze an issue takes tons of time. The American people, and I don't know what the situation is in South Africa, it, it takes a lot of time and energy and focus to really understand deeply all these issues.

Trevor Noah 35:18 Mm.

Katie Couric 35:18 Ostensibly, these people are there to really learn, evaluate, have staff people look at things.

Trevor Noah 35:25 This is what we hope.

Katie Couric 35:26 Now, yeah, i- ideally, right? The average American doesn't ... who's trying to earn a living, you know, be productive in the world, take care of his or her family-

Trevor Noah 35:38 Right

Katie Couric 35:38 ... isn't necessarily going to have the expertise in a certain area, I think, to ... I mean, I think they can get involved. They can call their member of Congress, et cetera. But do you believe that that would really work?

Trevor Noah 35:50 I-

Katie Couric 35:50 That every ... You know, if let's say there's an issue ab- Are you saying, for example, like funding DHS, that we should have a national vote like American Idol [laughs]

Eugene 36:02 I-

Katie Couric 36:02 And people should say how they feel?

Trevor Noah 36:04 So, so, so I, I love that you, that you brought that up because I think it, it, it captures two elements of politics that I think have broken down. One is the etymology of politics itself, right?

Eugene 36:16 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 36:16 From the Greek poly for the people. Politic, it's like it is literally the thing for the people of the people.

Eugene 36:21 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 36:22 If we the people cannot understand the thing-

Eugene 36:24 Mm

Trevor Noah 36:24 ... it is wrong is, is my opinion.

Eugene 36:27 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 36:27 Why have you made it so convoluted?

Eugene 36:28 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 36:28 It is easier to understand than you make it, and I think politicians have created a world where they've made it like, uh, "Look, you, you guys cannot understand this."

Eugene 36:37 But hey, you need to.

Trevor Noah 36:38 "Let us do it for you."

Eugene 36:39 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 36:39 "It's so complicated."

Eugene 36:40 Yes.

Trevor Noah 36:40 "Your tiny little brain cannot understand this."

Eugene 36:43 Yes.

Trevor Noah 36:43 "Just give us your tax, and then we will do it for you."

Katie Couric 36:46 [laughs]

Eugene 36:46 Yeah. We'll take care of it.

Katie Couric 36:47 Wait, did-

Trevor Noah 36:47 "You small-brained person"

Katie Couric 36:48 ... the politician just became Indian? [laughs]

Eugene 36:49 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 36:49 Oh, no, no, no. This is a, just a, a lord. A lord of something.

Eugene 36:53 But this should, this should be part of what every politician runs on and every citizen should insist on. Administrators should never be touched. So if you think of, in South Africa, for example, the Ministry of Home Affairs-

Trevor Noah 37:05 Yes, yes. You see, I'm li- I'm loving this

Eugene 37:07 ... if a, if a, if a minister comes in, he must not touch-

Trevor Noah 37:09 You see, I'm loving this

Eugene 37:10 ... the general manager. He must not-

Trevor Noah 37:11 I'm loving this

Eugene 37:12 ... touch the dev- the departmental heads because these appointments that are because of friendships are the ones that-

Trevor Noah 37:16 The bureaucrats

Eugene 37:16 ... destroy the, the true shit.

Trevor Noah 37:18 The bureaucrats.

Eugene 37:18 Exactly.

Trevor Noah 37:18 A l- this guy. Do you get-

Eugene 37:19 Now you're a political figure appoint-

Trevor Noah 37:21 Yes

Eugene 37:21 ... political appointee.

Trevor Noah 37:22 Yes.

Eugene 37:23 Destroying what the administrator has done for years and years-

Trevor Noah 37:26 Yes

Eugene 37:26 ... and years, and things have been working. And then we let that happen because we assume that they know what they're doing, but this person, just six months ago, was in a political party rally.

Trevor Noah 37:35 Yes.

Eugene 37:35 And now he walks into Home Affairs and Department of Immigration and Department of Finance and Department of Health, and he lets people that he thinks know what he's gonna be doing. And political deployments have never worked.

Trevor Noah 37:46 So this is, so this is what I, this is what I mean by, I agree with you.

Eugene 37:48 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 37:49 That most of us do not understand the intricacies of, of the things going on in a bill or the issues, except most of us. But I would, I would argue that most of us also include many of these politicians.

Eugene 37:58 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 37:59 The reason I say this, because if you talk to, as you have, senators, congresspeople, et cetera, first of all, they have a whole-

Eugene 38:05 Team

Trevor Noah 38:05 ... barrage of staff-

Eugene 38:06 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 38:07 ... who processes it for them and then gives them footnotes.

Eugene 38:11 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 38:11 And those people, if they're influenced by the right person, choose which footnotes to give or not give. And you've seen it in these hearings sometimes where, like, someone will ask a senator themselves, they'll be like, "Do you know what's in the bill?" And then the senator will be like, "Well, I mean, I, I know what the bill, uh, ente-" Then they're like, "Do you know what's in the bill?"

Eugene 38:29 Yes.

Trevor Noah 38:30 And then it's like, "Well, I ... Look, I don't know every single thing."

Eugene 38:34 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 38:34 "Did you know that in your bill about bridges, there's also a thing here about schools-

Eugene 38:38 Yeah

Trevor Noah 38:38 ... and then, like, how pigs should-

Eugene 38:40 Yeah

Trevor Noah 38:40 ... be shipped?" What?

Eugene 38:41 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 38:41 Pigs. Yeah, yeah. There's a thing about pigs. It's a bridge. Yeah, yeah.

Eugene 38:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 38:45 This is infrastructure, but there's a thing about pigs.

Eugene 38:47 You know what it is? We assume that everyone who dispenses medicine is a pharmacist. So when we elect officials, we assume that they know what they're doing.

Trevor Noah 38:55 Yes, that's what I mean.

Eugene 38:56 We as- we want them to dispense democracy on our behalf, and they keep telling us, "Psh, you guys are too young to know what this thing is. Eh, let me drive it for you, and I'll let you know when you're in."

Trevor Noah 39:05 There could be another way, Katie.

Eugene 39:06 There could be another way.

Katie Couric 39:07 Okay. So what, oh, okay.

Trevor Noah 39:08 Here's, here's-

Katie Couric 39:08 So guys, what are you proposing here?

Eugene 39:10 Ha. We thought you'd never ask. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 39:13 [laughs] No, you know what's funny? This is how I'll even s- I'll, I'll say it.

Eugene 39:17 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 39:17 Look at what you're doing in your life now. If, if I had come to you three decades ago and said, "Katie Couric, I think you can run your own media organization-

Eugene 39:27 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 39:28 ... that chooses its own stories and-

Eugene 39:29 From the comfort of your own home

Trevor Noah 39:30 ... yeah, and, and just-

Eugene 39:32 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 39:32 ... and not even have a time that you actually put something out.

Katie Couric 39:36 Right.

Trevor Noah 39:36 There will be no fixed time slots. There will be no time length. There-

Eugene 39:39 There'll be no overload.

Trevor Noah 39:40 Do you think you would have looked at me and been like, "Y- yeah, this sounds feasible"?

Katie Couric 39:44 No. I would have said, "You're nuts."

Trevor Noah 39:46 Thank you. That's, that's what I mean.

Katie Couric 39:49 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 39:50 So ... And when I look at what you've done today, it's exactly that. It's, it's citizen, you know, citizen journalism where you, you've taken s- taken all your expertise, all your experience, all your e- everything that you've gained over your lifetime.

Katie Couric 40:02 My connections-

Eugene 40:03 Yeah

Katie Couric 40:03 ... and people to-

Trevor Noah 40:03 Your connections, your respect-

Eugene 40:04 Yeah

Trevor Noah 40:04 ... your everything.

Eugene 40:05 Your knowledge.

Trevor Noah 40:06 And you've created something that is very necessary. And we're seeing w- many organizations that are doing this. You know, like, one of my favorites, uh, like, on YouTube is, like, A More Perfect Union.

Katie Couric 40:14 Oh, yes. Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 40:15 Some of the journalism they're doing is, like ... You're like, "Wow, why isn't this just everywhere?"

Katie Couric 40:19 Why isn't this everywhere? Yes.

Trevor Noah 40:21 Yes.

Katie Couric 40:21 Or MeidasTouch, uh, you know, is doing some great work.

Trevor Noah 40:25 Yes.

Katie Couric 40:25 And Courier News, uh, as well. It's funny because my friend's daughter is, is, like, the head of all digital content for More, A More Perfect Union.

Trevor Noah 40:34 Oh, okay. Well-

Katie Couric 40:35 Yeah

Trevor Noah 40:36 ... yeah, kudos to them.

Katie Couric 40:37 And so it's, it's really interesting.

Trevor Noah 40:39 But that idea seemed crazy. The idea that a m- a, a person could make an album in their bedroom and then send it out to the entire world, and then the world could choose how to listen to it seemed like a crazy concept.

Eugene 40:52 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 40:52 You know? And then look at someone like Billie Eilish.

Katie Couric 40:54 But, but, but, but how, how-

Trevor Noah 40:55 I think for voting we could do it.

Katie Couric 40:57 Okay.

Trevor Noah 40:57 And I think we have all the tools now.

Katie Couric 40:58 All right.

Trevor Noah 40:59 So-

Katie Couric 40:59 Well, let's talk about that. I mean, I'm just gonna challenge both of you. So how would that work practically?

Eugene 41:04 Please leave me out of it.

Trevor Noah 41:04 [laughs]

Katie Couric 41:04 Huh? [laughs] No, it was you.

Eugene 41:06 I'm joking. [laughs]

Katie Couric 41:06 It was you with the great, the big idea.

Trevor Noah 41:08 She's like, "I don't want to be challenged." [laughs]

Katie Couric 41:10 So, so I, I, I would love-

Trevor Noah 41:11 Go ahead, yeah

Katie Couric 41:12 ... to hear more specifically how this would work pragmatically.

Trevor Noah 41:15 Okay. Here's how I pitch it right now.

Katie Couric 41:16 Mm-hmm. Okay.

Trevor Noah 41:17 Th- this is, this is still in beta. This would be the idea, but there's a few things we have to address. So number one is there's a deluge of information, right? And there's a breakdown in how people understand that information.

Katie Couric 41:27 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 41:28 I do think AI has given us a tool that we've never had before, in that AI can tell you exactly h- it can translate it for you, for you.

Eugene 41:37 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 41:38 Regardless of your aptitude, regardless of your proficiency in a language, regard- AI can help you understand anything.

Eugene 41:45 The way you'd understand.

Trevor Noah 41:46 The way you need to understand it.

Katie Couric 41:48 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 41:48 All right? So that's the first thing I think, is we've now got a tool that can take large amounts of information, synthesize them for you, right?

Katie Couric 41:56 Right.

Trevor Noah 41:56 So that's, that's the first part. The second one is we already possess digital technology that requires verification and authentication. So people are trading, like, Bitcoin and all these things. You gotta have your ID in there. You've gotta have facial recognition on banking apps.

Eugene 42:13 Two-step verification.

Trevor Noah 42:14 Two-step veri-

Eugene 42:14 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 42:14 So th- there's a, a measure of security-

Eugene 42:16 Biometrics. Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 42:17 ... that is often more intense than voting security right now.

Eugene 42:21 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 42:21 So it's like, okay, so there's a way to verify that this is Katie Couric who's making this decision. So that's, I would argue, handled already.

Eugene 42:28 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 42:28 And, and can keep getting stronger. And then the last one is the instant nature of it. Instead of having bills that are built on other bills that are built on other bills that are built ... That, in my opinion, mean lots of things don't go anywhere. You could just have an a la carte system where people in their cities, in their states, et cetera, are voting on bite-sized ideas, which is how we already consume information.

Eugene 42:52 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 42:52 Then you just go, "Hey, would you like more or less funding for the parks and this? H- here's how we're breaking the spending. Here's how we're doing this. Here's..." I do think there's a way We could simplify the information without d- diminishing any of its fidelity-

Eugene 43:06 Yeah

Trevor Noah 43:07 ... and get people to make decisions, as opposed to saying, "You can make no decision. You can just pick a person and then that's it."

Katie Couric 43:14 But there's a lot of, uh, things that go into running a country, right?

Trevor Noah 43:19 Yes.

Katie Couric 43:19 So are you suggesting that every issue, every decision, every spending cut or increase is voted on by the ci- citizenry?

Trevor Noah 43:29 No, but I do think there's a large-

Katie Couric 43:30 And, and-

Trevor Noah 43:30 ... part of it. I think we, right now we're at, like, zero is what I argue.

Katie Couric 43:34 Mm.

Trevor Noah 43:34 Right? Maybe not zero, to be fair, 'cause I guess people vote on, what do you, what do you call those in America? The-

Katie Couric 43:39 Uh, a referendum.

Trevor Noah 43:40 Yeah. W- and also there's the other ones where people go, um, sh-

Katie Couric 43:45 Ballot initiatives?

Trevor Noah 43:46 Should ... Yes. Thank you. Ballot initiatives. Right.

Eugene 43:48 Okay.

Trevor Noah 43:49 So it's not zero, to be fair, but it's, it's very few. I'm not saying it could, it would be 100, 'cause I love bureaucrats. I'm gonna go on record to say, as like Eugene said, my friend over here. You know why? Because bureaucrats make the world move, and we've been conditioned to, to, like, hate bureaucracy and hate ... No.

Eugene 44:08 Mm.

Trevor Noah 44:08 They're the people who make sure that the bridges are gonna work and make sure that the engineer's numbers-

Katie Couric 44:14 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 44:14 ... match up, and they, and they make sure that the roads-

Eugene 44:17 Companies are credible

Trevor Noah 44:17 ... are built, and they make sure that the, that the drug companies are actually testing and they're looking at the studies and the-

Katie Couric 44:23 I think some bureaucrats. I mean, I think bureaucracy has gotten a, a, a bad name.

Trevor Noah 44:29 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 44:29 And I think there are public servants who do exactly that, serve the public.

Trevor Noah 44:35 Mm-hmm.

Eugene 44:35 Yeah.

Katie Couric 44:35 But there are s- also, bureaucracy connotes a certain kind of, um-

Trevor Noah 44:41 Bloat

Katie Couric 44:41 ... bloat.

Trevor Noah 44:41 Yeah.

Katie Couric 44:41 Right? And, and I think Democrats and Republicans agree that the government had gotten too big and could have been more efficient.

Trevor Noah 44:51 Way more ... Yes.

Katie Couric 44:51 And that's not ... And, and, and of course, Elon Musk took a literal chainsaw to it-

Trevor Noah 44:56 [laughs]

Katie Couric 44:56 ... where it needed, you know, an X-Acto knife, right?

Trevor Noah 45:00 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 45:00 And so I think that, uh, I agree with you. I mean, I think-

Trevor Noah 45:05 His, his one was weird though

Katie Couric 45:05 ... I think ... But, but you know, I think we're in this binary world. You can't say bureaucracy is good, bureaucracy is bad.

Trevor Noah 45:11 No, I agree.

Katie Couric 45:11 Right?

Trevor Noah 45:12 That's why I'm agreeing with you. That's why I'm agree ... I'm just ... You know what is funny about-

Eugene 45:14 Yeah

Trevor Noah 45:14 ... the Elon Musk thing? He took a chainsaw to it. I've never seen somebody take a chainsaw and then somehow-

Eugene 45:21 The chainsaw? [laughs]

Trevor Noah 45:22 ... cut everything down, but also miss all the trees. [laughs]

Eugene 45:25 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 45:26 'Cause he didn't save anything. He saved, like, no money, but everything was destroyed at the same time. You're like, what were you doing with this chainsaw, Elon Musk? Like ... No, no, but to your point-

Eugene 45:36 I-

Trevor Noah 45:36 ... that's what I'm agreeing with.

Eugene 45:37 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 45:37 I'm saying, I'm saying I think there can be a balance-

Eugene 45:40 [laughs] He missed everything

Trevor Noah 45:40 ... that can ... He did miss everything.

Eugene 45:42 No.

Trevor Noah 45:43 I think there can be a balance where we just find a world where we are a little more involved and politicians are held a little bit more accountable along the way-

Katie Couric 45:55 One thing-

Trevor Noah 45:55 ... as opposed to making it like-

Eugene 45:56 Okay

Trevor Noah 45:56 ... "Oh, I'll guess I'll wait four years to," you know?

Katie Couric 45:58 I think that people, I think that election day should be a national holiday.

Trevor Noah 46:03 Yeah, I'm loving this, Katie.

Eugene 46:04 First of all, let's go-

Katie Couric 46:04 And I think people should be fined if they don't vote.

Trevor Noah 46:08 Yeah. Well, well, okay, wait.

Eugene 46:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 46:10 Wait, let me think on this.

Eugene 46:11 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 46:11 Wait, let me think on the second one first. Let me think on it.

Eugene 46:13 National holiday.

Katie Couric 46:14 Is it, is it-

Trevor Noah 46:14 I'm in. I'm in

Eugene 46:15 Fined. Okay.

Trevor Noah 46:16 I'm in, Katie. I'm in.

Katie Couric 46:17 Wait. Now, I would, I wish I knew at the to- uh, at the top of my head, does Australia ... Some country-

Trevor Noah 46:23 Fines

Katie Couric 46:23 ... somebody fines.

Trevor Noah 46:23 It, it ... You, you have to. You, in, in Australia-

Katie Couric 46:25 You have to vote

Trevor Noah 46:25 ... you have to vote.

Katie Couric 46:26 It's, it's mandatory, right?

Trevor Noah 46:27 Yeah. And that's why-

Katie Couric 46:27 And what happens if you don't?

Trevor Noah 46:29 I do think there's, you get penalized in some way. That's why people vote for, like, Darth Vader and stuff there. It's quite-

Eugene 46:35 So you get what?

Trevor Noah 46:35 ... quite common. You get penalized. I think you get fined.

Eugene 46:37 Okay. So penalized come from the word penalty.

Trevor Noah 46:39 Yes.

Eugene 46:41 So you get ... Okay.

Trevor Noah 46:43 Yes.

Katie Couric 46:44 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 46:45 That's exactly what it is.

Katie Couric 46:46 But don't you think-

Eugene 46:46 Penalized

Katie Couric 46:46 ... I just feel like-

Eugene 46:47 Why didn't you say penalized? 'Cause you could have said penalized.

Trevor Noah 46:51 Uh, because I think it's penal. I, I don't even think it comes from penalty. I think it might come from penal something else.

Eugene 46:57 Yeah, but penal colonies were penalty colonies.

Trevor Noah 47:00 Ah.

Eugene 47:00 Penitentiary colonies.

Trevor Noah 47:01 Pe- pele- pellet- Peloton? Peleton.

Eugene 47:04 [upbeat music] I wanna win.

Trevor Noah 47:05 I don't know. We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. Imagine this, you're at a checkout counter. You're ready to pay when you realize you don't have your wallet. Dun, dun, dun. You could drive all the way back home and you could get it, but you remember that you have your Apple Card on your iPhone. So you can tap to pay with Apple Pay. Imagine that. No need to carry a wallet. But you know, one of the things I do like about having my card on my phone is we live in a world where you lose your card, and then you don't know where it is, and then you're like, "What do I do?" Well, if your phone is connected to your card and your card is connected to your phone, you know what's going on. The best thing about having the Apple Card connected to your phone is you know what every transaction is. You know, like, sometimes you're like, "What did I spend this month?" The Apple Card will show you. One month, I had spent an obscene amount of money ordering videos online.

Eugene 48:01 Just videos.

Trevor Noah 48:02 They were just videos.

Eugene 48:04 What kind of videos?

Trevor Noah 48:05 That's not the point.

Eugene 48:06 Sure.

Trevor Noah 48:06 The point is, I knew that I didn't want to order those videos anymore, 'cause I'd spent too much money on it. It was videos on how to not spend money online.

Eugene 48:17 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 48:17 I felt like I'd been duped. Point is, Apple showed me what I was spending my money on, and I was able to change my spending habits, and you can do it, too. I earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase with my Apple Card. That's unlimited daily cash back, no matter where I shop. What a refreshing change of pace. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch, terms and more at applecard.com. [upbeat music] So here's my thing about voting.

Eugene 48:53 First of all, I think it's politicians that-

Trevor Noah 48:57 But wait, can we agree we're in? By the way-

Eugene 48:58 Yeah, we're in. We're in

Trevor Noah 48:58 ... you've got our votes.

Katie Couric 48:59 Okay.

Trevor Noah 48:59 National holiday.

Eugene 49:00 Yes.

Trevor Noah 49:01 We're completely in.

Eugene 49:02 And penalty

Trevor Noah 49:03 Well, I'm in, I'm in on this

Eugene 49:04 ... if you don't go vote.

Trevor Noah 49:05 Yeah, cultural thing.

Eugene 49:06 If you don't exercise your democratic responsibility-

Trevor Noah 49:08 Yes

Eugene 49:08 ... not right. 'Cause I think at some point it becomes a responsibility instead of a right.

Trevor Noah 49:11 Okay.

Eugene 49:12 So here's my thing. I think politicians are the reasons why, or are the reason why normal citizens hate bureaucrats, because they've used words like red tape and bloated. Um, they've, they've used those words to excuse them not being efficient. [clapping] So they've said, "I would love to do this, but, ah, there's so much red tape." But if I put someone that I know who can cut through the red tape, then for four years someone is putting someone that cuts through the red tape. And as soon as they get there, they don't cut through the red tape because maybe there's no red tape. That's how things work. If you've ordered 1,000 buses from Malaysia, it takes one year to make the buses-

Trevor Noah 49:50 Ev- every one-

Eugene 49:50 ... ship them over here-

Trevor Noah 49:51 Yeah

Eugene 49:51 ... for six months.

Trevor Noah 49:51 Every one.

Eugene 49:52 So, so-

Trevor Noah 49:52 I mean, Trump came in saying, "Gonna drain the swamp."

Eugene 49:54 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 49:55 "I'm gonna drain it."

Eugene 49:55 So there's no one at the Department of Transport-

Trevor Noah 49:56 "We gotta drain the swamp"

Eugene 49:57 ... who doesn't want the buses to come.

Trevor Noah 49:58 "We gotta drain it." And then you go there and you're like, "What did, what did you drain?" "I, I mean, turns out it's not a swamp, it's a bathtub."

Eugene 50:05 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 50:05 "You can't drain a bathtub 'cause we gotta bath. We gotta bath." That's what it is.

Eugene 50:10 [laughs] You know what? You need to be penalized for d- [laughs]

Trevor Noah 50:17 [laughs]

Eugene 50:18 For doing that accent so well. So the second part is I think there should be categories of who can vote and how many times can they vote.

Trevor Noah 50:27 Whoa.

Katie Couric 50:27 What?

Trevor Noah 50:27 So I'll give you-

Eugene 50:28 What?

Trevor Noah 50:28 I'll give one, I'll give an example.

Katie Couric 50:29 What do you live in Chicago?

Trevor Noah 50:30 Yo.

Eugene 50:30 Because here- here's my thing. There's banks who, who have more security than governments when it comes to voting.

Trevor Noah 50:36 Okay.

Eugene 50:36 And there's also buildings that are run more efficiently than governments.

Trevor Noah 50:40 Okay.

Eugene 50:41 So we can combine those two. We go, people in some buildings who have kids can vote if the place needs to be kid friendly or not. But if you don't have kids or you don't have a dog, I mean, sit this one out. So-

Trevor Noah 50:52 Oh, this is an interesting idea

Eugene 50:54 ... so we must go-

Trevor Noah 50:54 You're going like granular with the voting.

Eugene 50:56 Yeah. So if we go, "Katie, how many kids do you have?" And you go, "I've got three kids. They go to school here. Here's their age." And then we go, "Okay. In the voting ballot paper, you get more of a say because you are creating a future for your kids."

Trevor Noah 51:09 Oh, this is an interesting idea. What do you think about that, Katie?

Katie Couric 51:11 I don't think that's a good idea.

Trevor Noah 51:12 Why?

Eugene 51:13 Why, why not?

Katie Couric 51:14 I mean, you're saying that people with kids should have more than one vote.

Trevor Noah 51:19 The same way people-

Eugene 51:19 You know what

Trevor Noah 51:20 ... with kids get to board the plane first.

Eugene 51:22 Yes. So, no, I'd like to know your thoughts on this. Where are you, I wanna-

Trevor Noah 51:25 And pe- people with dogs get preferential treatment at the-

Eugene 51:27 No, I wanna, but I wanna hear-

Trevor Noah 51:28 ... in the buildings-

Eugene 51:28 ... I wanna hear-

Trevor Noah 51:28 ... and in the parks

Eugene 51:29 ... I wanna hear what Katie's-

Trevor Noah 51:29 Because I'm not, I don't own a dog. But when I see a dog lover rolling with their dog in a dog park, I'm like, "I understand. You wanted this to happen and this is benefiting you. But I, if I was left to vote for your comfort and your dog's comfort, I can tell you now, you and your dog wouldn't be here."

Eugene 51:45 [laughs] But no, this is an interesting... What do, what do you think of that?

Katie Couric 51:48 I don't think, I don't know. It, it, I've never really thought about it. And I just don't think it's practical.

Trevor Noah 51:56 Okay.

Eugene 51:56 How?

Trevor Noah 51:57 Okay.

Katie Couric 51:57 All right. So how do-

Eugene 51:58 Katie's gonna tell us how.

Katie Couric 51:59 You tell me how. All right. So what do you do, a census and... Are y- you're saying that people-

Eugene 52:04 When you're registering to vote, obviously the government already knows from the birth certificates of your children how many children you have.

Trevor Noah 52:10 I, can I tell you something?

Eugene 52:11 Right?

Trevor Noah 52:11 It sounds like a crazy idea.

Eugene 52:13 It is.

Trevor Noah 52:13 When you said it, I thought it's crazy. When you explain it, there's a, there's a little bit of sense to it in that, like-

Katie Couric 52:21 It also feeds into Project 2025, where they want more people to have more kids. That, that they feel like that people should be procreating at a much faster rate.

Trevor Noah 52:31 Can I tell you, can we just pause it-

Katie Couric 52:33 And so, so-

Trevor Noah 52:33 Can we take a tangent on that?

Katie Couric 52:34 So what if people say, "Okay, I'm gonna have more kids because I wanna have more votes." Is that a good reason to have children?

Eugene 52:41 No. They will never-

Trevor Noah 52:42 It's not a-

Eugene 52:42 Yo, yo, yo

Trevor Noah 52:42 ... it's not a good reason, but your body's not gonna cooperate.

Eugene 52:44 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 52:45 Like, good luck, good luck just making kids. [laughs]

Eugene 52:48 And no partners as well. [laughs] Yeah, you're in trouble already.

Trevor Noah 52:52 Good luck. I mean, like, the weird thing about the human body is everyone can say like, "I'm gonna have more kids," but your body might be like, "No, you're not."

Eugene 52:58 And then it derails your agenda. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 53:00 You know, it's, it's just a weird-

Katie Couric 53:02 I, I think it's a r- it's not a good idea.

Trevor Noah 53:04 Okay.

Katie Couric 53:05 And I can't really, really get into-

Trevor Noah 53:07 Would you-

Katie Couric 53:07 ... all the reasons why, because I have to really think about this.

Eugene 53:10 There we go, Katie. But do you, would you live in an apartment building that's not kid friendly when you have kids?

Katie Couric 53:16 No.

Eugene 53:17 This, this building says, "We don't wanna hear children playing. We don't wanna hear them laughing. We don't wanna hear anything." Just-

Katie Couric 53:22 No, I wouldn't.

Eugene 53:23 You wouldn't live there, right?

Katie Couric 53:24 Mm-mm.

Eugene 53:24 But why do we do that with a country? Why would you do that with a state that doesn't allow us to express ourselves and our needs and the things that we care about on a granular level, but on a gigantic scale? So when people-

Katie Couric 53:36 Well, I think you do by voting for people who you think have policies that are gonna be better for your children.

Eugene 53:42 But we've discovered that they don't even know how the Department of Health works.

Trevor Noah 53:46 [laughs] It is true, though.

Eugene 53:47 They've told us. They're like, "I'm a politician."

Trevor Noah 53:48 Okay, okay. How about this? I'll pitch this to you. Before we get to our crazy ideas, can I pitch something?

Eugene 53:53 We haven't gotten there yet.

Trevor Noah 53:54 Yes. No, no, no, because we are ... No, I'm saying before-

Eugene 53:56 Oh, the crazy ideas are me

Trevor Noah 53:56 ... because Katie, we haven't won Katie over at all yet.

Eugene 53:57 Okay, okay, okay. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 53:58 All right?

Eugene 53:59 And also, Katie's coffee has run out. That's why I think she's-

Katie Couric 54:01 That's okay. I'm good

Eugene 54:02 ... so skeptical about all this. [laughs]

Katie Couric 54:04 I'm good. I'm good.

Trevor Noah 54:04 Let's, let's, let's, let's ... Okay, how about, how about this?

Eugene 54:06 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 54:07 Could I pitch to you, how would you feel if I said nobody should be allowed to run a, an area of the government that they don't possess an expertise in? How do you feel about that?

Katie Couric 54:21 Good.

Trevor Noah 54:22 Okay. Okay, so you would agree. Like, 'cause I-

Katie Couric 54:24 Yeah

Trevor Noah 54:24 ... I think it's strange-

Katie Couric 54:25 I agree with that

Trevor Noah 54:25 ... that somebody who has no experience in the field of medicine or science can go and run the fields of medicine and science.

Katie Couric 54:33 Uh, yeah.

Trevor Noah 54:34 Okay, okay, okay. No. So you-

Eugene 54:35 Yeah

Trevor Noah 54:35 ... I'm with you there.

Katie Couric 54:36 I'm 100, of course.

Eugene 54:37 And then here, here's another one. Here's another ca-

Katie Couric 54:38 What's that have to do with being able to vote more because you have kids?

Eugene 54:41 No, no, no, I'm just trying to see where we can bring you.

Trevor Noah 54:43 No, we're adding, we're at, we're, we're giving-

Katie Couric 54:44 Of course I ... You know I, you know I think that.

Trevor Noah 54:47 No, no, no, no, no. I'm, I'm trying to like, I'm trying to see how we-

Katie Couric 54:49 Okay. Oh, are you, are you-

Trevor Noah 54:50 We're trying to see where we can-

Katie Couric 54:50 Okay, you're building your argument. Okay, go on.

Trevor Noah 54:52 Ka- not even. No, no, no.

Katie Couric 54:53 No.

Trevor Noah 54:53 I'm just trying to see where, where we get, can encourage you.

Eugene 54:55 Here, here, here, here's my other one. Here's my other one to add because now we're going, we're not going extreme, actually. We're going, uh, very-

Trevor Noah 55:00 These are mediocre.

Eugene 55:01 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 55:01 You're trying to win this vote-

Eugene 55:02 Here's another one, Katie

Trevor Noah 55:02 ... a vote of one.

Katie Couric 55:03 Okay.

Eugene 55:04 Every, every politician that runs to run a certain department must run it, neh?

Trevor Noah 55:10 Yeah.

Eugene 55:10 Their campaign-

Trevor Noah 55:11 Yeah

Eugene 55:11 ... together with an elected bureaucrat from that department.

Trevor Noah 55:15 I'm not mad at this.

Eugene 55:16 So they might, they're like, "Department of Health" Yes. And then there's Steve, who's been at the Department of Health for a long time.

Trevor Noah 55:22 I like this.

Eugene 55:22 And then he endorses me, 'cause Steve thinks should I come in here, there's things that I could do at Capital City that he can't do, but there's things that he can do inside there that I can't do. So his running mate is a bureaucrat. So everybody-

Katie Couric 55:35 But what if, what if the, what if the, the person who's coming in to power-

Eugene 55:39 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 55:39 ... has, has meaningful and important reforms to institute? You get the b- bureaucrat who is basically adhering to the status quo and saying, "This is the way we've always done it," when the person coming in might say, "We need to change this. This needs to be done differently."

Trevor Noah 55:57 This is a good point.

Eugene 55:57 Yeah, but they'll-

Trevor Noah 55:58 How do you respond, Eugene?

Eugene 55:59 They'll need to convince-

Katie Couric 56:00 [laughs]

Eugene 56:00 ... the bureaucrat why, as an outsider, they think that would work when the bureaucrat has been there for 20 years.

Trevor Noah 56:05 I don't know. I'm feeling it's getting gummed up now.

Eugene 56:07 Where?

Trevor Noah 56:08 'Cause now they have to convince a bureaucrat. Now I'm a little bit with Katie on this one.

Eugene 56:12 Okay. If, if I've been there for 20 years-

Trevor Noah 56:16 Yes

Eugene 56:16 ... and I'm telling you, "That's how we do a podcast. This is how-

Trevor Noah 56:18 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Eugene 56:18 ... it's been done. The podcast has been going out."

Trevor Noah 56:19 Yeah, yeah.

Eugene 56:20 In fact, the fact that you exist as a politician to wanna try and run this department-

Trevor Noah 56:24 Yes. Is partially due to-

Eugene 56:24 ... means that this thing works.

Trevor Noah 56:25 Yes

Eugene 56:26 And then you come and you go, "No, my constituency says it could be better here, there, and here."

Trevor Noah 56:31 Yeah.

Eugene 56:31 You see how we're getting to my voters again, but we're not gonna go there. Then the person says, "Okay, I think if you change this studio and if you change this location-

Trevor Noah 56:37 Yeah

Eugene 56:38 ... and we change this microphone," then the person who's a bureaucrat then goes, "No. If you change that, this is what would happen."

Trevor Noah 56:43 Mm-hmm.

Eugene 56:43 "If you don't change this, this is what would happen."

Katie Couric 56:45 But you're saying-

Eugene 56:46 'Cause I think-

Katie Couric 56:46 ... give them equal authority, right?

Eugene 56:48 Yes, because they are running together.

Trevor Noah 56:49 I don't know. I'm with Ka-

Eugene 56:49 So there's no way you can separate the two.

Trevor Noah 56:50 Now I'm with Katie. Now I'm with Katie.

Katie Couric 56:51 I'm sorry. You've lost-

Eugene 56:52 So you want the politician to be-

Trevor Noah 56:53 You've lost our votes

Eugene 56:54 ... in charge?

Trevor Noah 56:54 Now you've lost my vote.

Katie Couric 56:55 I don't know. I mean, is it ... You're, you're saying that-

Trevor Noah 56:57 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 56:57 ... the politician has to have expertise. So in other words-

Eugene 57:00 That's what he's saying

Katie Couric 57:00 ... the person who's running the CDC has to have expertise-

Eugene 57:04 Yes

Katie Couric 57:04 ... in health, public health-

Eugene 57:06 Public health

Katie Couric 57:06 ... and, and et cetera.

Eugene 57:07 Yes. You should at least have some sort of ... Yes.

Katie Couric 57:08 So i- if that's the case, that person, to me, should have the authority to ... And, and hopefully you have decent people who are intelligent and knowledgeable-

Eugene 57:19 100%

Katie Couric 57:19 ... and take information-

Eugene 57:20 Yeah

Katie Couric 57:20 ... from the people who are already there. But that person has to be in charge, because I'm just a fr- ... Yeah, I just don't like your plan. I'm sorry, Eugene.

Trevor Noah 57:28 Sorry, Eugene. You failed.

Eugene 57:29 [laughs]

Katie Couric 57:29 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 57:29 Can I ask you, can I ask you a question? W- When you, um-

Eugene 57:32 Katie, I'm with you. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 57:34 I'm assuming over the years you've developed countless sources-

Eugene 57:38 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 57:39 ... and, and, you know, people who are insiders and just people who have, like, told you things about stuff.

Eugene 57:43 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 57:43 And this could be an incorrect assumption, but I, I'm assuming this because of your time in journalism. Have you heard from people inside what we call the administration a- and, and have any of them signaled to you that, like, they're sort of not sure, or they ... You, you know? How do they even manage that incongruency between what they think should be and what is?

Katie Couric 58:03 I haven't heard that many people who are currently inside the-

Trevor Noah 58:07 Mm

Katie Couric 58:07 ... administration because I think, first of all, they are uber paranoid about leaks there.

Trevor Noah 58:13 Oh, wow. Okay.

Katie Couric 58:14 And, and-

Eugene 58:14 Mm.

Katie Couric 58:14 You know?

Trevor Noah 58:15 'Cause of the first term.

Katie Couric 58:15 Whether you're working at the Pentagon or wherever, uh, I think that ... And, and also I think if you're covering something, you have to be at the Pentagon to really have these inside sources.

Eugene 58:26 Right.

Trevor Noah 58:26 Right.

Katie Couric 58:26 Um, that's why reporters have different beats, right? So they develop sources and have an expertise in that area.

Trevor Noah 58:32 Wait, so how-

Katie Couric 58:33 Uh, but I do know a lot of people who have left the administration-

Trevor Noah 58:36 Yeah

Katie Couric 58:36 ... who have been fired from the administration, who then are speaking out. For example, I interviewed an, a senior level FBI agent who talked about kind of what she had seen happening in the FBI, the sort of the wholesale firing of people with expertise, for example, in the Iranian terror threat, right? Kash Patel just gets rid of this whole unit. Or because some of these agents were investigating some of the perpetrators of January 6th, they got fired. So people like that are much more open to obviously talking-

Trevor Noah 59:12 Okay, because now they've left

Katie Couric 59:13 ... about what's happening w- in inside the administration. Um, I, I think most people who are unhappy have left or, um, are, are too afraid to talk about why they're unhappy. You know?

Trevor Noah 59:26 Yeah.

Katie Couric 59:26 Liz Oyer was fired as the chief pardons, uh, attorney at DOJ. Now she has this very, very vibrant social media presence, and she's talking about what's going on in the DOJ. I'm sure she has sources, the ... Some people left who she worked with.

Trevor Noah 59:41 Yeah.

Katie Couric 59:42 But I think it's very difficult, at least for me, and maybe White House correspondents who are actually on site-

Trevor Noah 59:48 Mm

Katie Couric 59:48 ... and can develop these sources.

Trevor Noah 59:49 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 59:50 But I think most of the people in, in the administration anyway-

Trevor Noah 59:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Katie Couric 59:55 ... not necessarily in the federal government, I'm sure there are a lot of people, but they're terrified too. You know? You speak out and you get shit-canned.

Trevor Noah 1:00:02 Right.

Katie Couric 1:00:03 Right?

Trevor Noah 1:00:03 Right.

Eugene 1:00:03 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:00:04 So I, I don't really have a lot of people inside this administration who would be able to talk on the record about, or, you know, even off the record about their displeasure of how things are being done.

Trevor Noah 1:00:18 I've always been fascinated about how the beats work. So if somebody is ... When they say someone is stationed-

Katie Couric 1:00:25 Capitol Hill correspondent or whatever

Trevor Noah 1:00:26 ... at the Pentagon-

Katie Couric 1:00:27 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:00:27 ... or you're at the White House, w- what does that exactly mean? 'Cause I, I don't assume as a journalist you get to, like, walk around the White House freely and investigate things. So-

Katie Couric 1:00:36 Well, you used to be able to. Well, I'll ta- ta- talk about the Pentagon for a second-

Trevor Noah 1:00:40 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:00:40 ... because I was the deputy Pentagon correspondent at NBC-

Trevor Noah 1:00:43 Wow

Katie Couric 1:00:43 ... only for a year before I, uh, became a national correspondent on the Today Show, and then co-anchor of the Today Show. But basically, when you're a deputy or any Pentagon correspondent-

Trevor Noah 1:00:54 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:00:54 ... whether it's for The Atlantic or The Washington Post or NBC News, you develop sources.

Trevor Noah 1:00:59 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:01:00 You walk around the E Ring, which is the big pyramid perimeter.

Trevor Noah 1:01:02 Wait, slow down, slow down. Sorry, sorry. Slow, slow down. 'Cause you're saying it and I, I don't understand any of it. What does develop sources mean?

Katie Couric 1:01:08 Well, you talk to people, you know? You introduce yourself to people. You talk to people, uh, from different, uh, you know, arms of the ... You know, from the Navy, Air Force, Marines, uh-

Trevor Noah 1:01:21 So you just go around and you're like, "Hi, I'm Katie Couric. I'm a reporter."

Katie Couric 1:01:24 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:01:24 "And nice to know you."

Katie Couric 1:01:25 Well, yeah. Or- I remember getting a tip from somebody, you know, my first week at the Pentagon.

Eugene 1:01:31 No ways.

Katie Couric 1:01:31 Uh, and said, "Hey, this is happening. Are you interested?" And I was like-

Eugene 1:01:35 What was the story? Do you remember?

Katie Couric 1:01:38 Yeah. It was about a guy who had secrets, and it ended up ... Yeah, yeah. I think his name was ... He- Anyway, he's being accused of being a spy.

Eugene 1:01:54 Oh, wow.

Katie Couric 1:01:54 Yeah.

Eugene 1:01:55 And that person tipped you.

Katie Couric 1:01:57 Mm-hmm.

Eugene 1:01:57 So help me understand this. Why do they do that as opposed to you would assume if you work at the Pentagon and you know that somebody's a spy, you would just go to your, like, your superiors and be like, "Hey, this person's a spy."

Katie Couric 1:02:12 Yeah.

Eugene 1:02:13 Why would they come to you?

Katie Couric 1:02:13 I think the, the person was already being investigated.

Eugene 1:02:16 Okay. Okay, okay.

Katie Couric 1:02:16 And I think they thought it was a good story, that it was worth being in the public domain-

Eugene 1:02:23 Okay

Katie Couric 1:02:23 ... and that it was worth reporting on. I mean, I think people have various motivations, right?

Eugene 1:02:29 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katie Couric 1:02:30 For, for telling a reporter something. It could be for their own self-aggrandizement. It could be making them feel powerful, could be because they truly believe that-

Eugene 1:02:39 In the public-

Katie Couric 1:02:40 ... in the public, in the public's right to know.

Eugene 1:02:41 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:02:42 Um, but anyway, so you would walk around. You would talk to people. You would meet people. You would meet them, you know, getting an egg sandwich [laughs] in the morning. I mean, all kinds of ways, right?

Eugene 1:02:51 That's fascinating.

Katie Couric 1:02:52 And, um, and you would walk around. I would just walk around that Pentagon, like do circles around what they called the E ring.

Eugene 1:03:00 Just 10,000 steps.

Katie Couric 1:03:01 And I would talk to people and, um, introduce myself. And, and now they have limited your ability to walk around the Pentagon without an escort.

Eugene 1:03:13 Oh.

Katie Couric 1:03:13 There's certain parts of the Pentagon you can't walk around. They ... You, you know all the different restrictions they've tried to place on reporters-

Eugene 1:03:20 Yes

Katie Couric 1:03:20 ... at the Pentagon. They first of all kicked out, they, you know, they got rid of people's workspace.

Eugene 1:03:25 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:03:25 They made The New York Times and I think NBC News and another publication leave, uh, 'cause we used to have desks and offices.

Eugene 1:03:34 Inside.

Katie Couric 1:03:34 You'd report from the Pentagon.

Eugene 1:03:36 Right. Wow.

Katie Couric 1:03:36 Like, we had a soundproof booth, and they'd come to us. Um, and so they kicked some of them out. They did more administration-friendly news organizations, invited them in. Then they said you had to sign an agreement saying before you reported on a story, even if it wasn't classified information, you had to clear it with the Pentagon-

Eugene 1:03:57 Oh, wow

Katie Couric 1:03:58 ... with the, with the Pentagon people. And, um-

Eugene 1:04:01 That feels a bit dictatory. That's a-

Katie Couric 1:04:02 Yeah. And then, and then a judge said, "You can't do any of this." And now they're still trying to put the Pentagon reporters outside the Pentagon proper. They're trying to-

Eugene 1:04:12 Wow

Katie Couric 1:04:12 ... annex the reporters and keep them out of the building. I mean, they're just trying to make it very, very difficult. Now, reporters, to their credit, from The New York Times and all the legitimate news organizations haven't let it stop them. But one Pentagon correspondent told me that one of her sources af- is afraid to meet her at a restaurant, right, or is afraid to be seen talking-

Eugene 1:04:39 With a-

Katie Couric 1:04:39 ... to her at all.

Eugene 1:04:39 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:04:40 But you know, which isn't surprising, but it's just very, it's much more difficult. And it has a chilling effect on what people are, are gonna feel comfortable talking to reporters about, right?

Eugene 1:04:51 Mm-hmm. Right.

Katie Couric 1:04:51 They're gonna be so scared, and I think that, uh, Pete Hegseth has really made it clear that he will not tolerate any leaking. And but that's when you get information about things that are going on-

Eugene 1:05:06 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:05:06 ... that perhaps shouldn't be going on-

Eugene 1:05:07 Right, right

Katie Couric 1:05:08 ... that warrant the public's attention. So they're doing, um ... It, it's really upsetting. They're really trying to, to muzzle reporters and ti- tie their hands behind their backs and make their jobs very difficult, and it's just not right.

Eugene 1:05:25 I sometimes, like how you're explaining now makes sense of what I always think. I sometimes feel sorry for hardcore journalists who are invested in telling people the news because of how much information just gets lost in between, right? So if you think about in South Africa right now, what they're trying to do is they're trying to pass a law that incentivizes a whistleblower. So if a whistleblower comes out in a department and says 16 billion rand was stolen, they, when the, when the person gets convicted, the person gets a share of the money recovered.

Katie Couric 1:05:55 Whoa, what?

Eugene 1:05:56 Yes.

Katie Couric 1:05:57 I didn't know this.

Eugene 1:05:57 Yes. So they first get protection-

Katie Couric 1:05:59 Damn

Eugene 1:05:59 ... while the case is being investigated.

Katie Couric 1:06:01 That's a great, uh ...

Eugene 1:06:02 And then afterwards they get a cut, a percentage of what was recovered. So I think of, of the news, and I think of the era of maybe, like, CNN during Desert Storm. And you'd find these journalists in there telling the news. They were the source of the news.

Katie Couric 1:06:17 Right, right.

Eugene 1:06:17 They were reporting live from there. So I can imagine someone who has a, a source, who works at the Pentagon, whoever, gets this information, gets the story out, but they go on social media, and there's so much disinformation about the same subject that they fought so hard for.

Katie Couric 1:06:32 Yeah.

Eugene 1:06:32 All the meetings they had, the life, their livelihood that they're risking sometimes as a journalist to print a story that is true and that has potential ramifications for a lot of people.

Katie Couric 1:06:41 Well, I still s- I mean, there is still incredible journalism happening.

Eugene 1:06:45 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:06:45 You know, I think about ProPublica, you know, a nonprofit-

Eugene 1:06:48 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:06:49 ... n- news organization. And they were the ones who figured out how many of the people who were being arrested and detained by ICE were not guilty of committing serious crimes.

Eugene 1:07:03 Oh, yes. They ... Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:07:03 And it was something like 85%.

Eugene 1:07:05 Right.

Katie Couric 1:07:06 Right?

Eugene 1:07:06 No way.

Katie Couric 1:07:06 And others ... Yeah, and, and so, and then you have, like, The New York Times or The Atlantic or I th- or The New Yorker it was, New Yorker and The New York Times keeping track of how the Trump family has enriched themselves-

Eugene 1:07:21 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 1:07:21 ... to the tune of over $4 billion and counting. This was a few months ago-

Eugene 1:07:25 Sheesh

Katie Couric 1:07:25 ... so I'm sure it's much higher Um, so you know, I think that you're right. Everything becomes diluted in this media landscape where everyone has a voice and an opinion and pretends to be a journalist.

Trevor Noah 1:07:40 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:07:40 But I still believe that for well-informed people, and I think media literacy is more important than ever-

Trevor Noah 1:07:49 Yeah.

Eugene 1:07:49 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 1:07:49 ... I think that we have to have people who understand how to, how to consume information and to judge information-

Trevor Noah 1:07:56 Yeah, yeah

Katie Couric 1:07:56 ... and the accuracy.

Eugene 1:07:58 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:07:58 But, um, I think that, that those stories do break through. And then what happens is, you know, for all the bellyaching about mainstream media, whatever that is now-

Trevor Noah 1:08:11 Yeah.

Eugene 1:08:11 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:08:11 ... you know, it's these big organizations, news organizations, some of them, who are ha- are, are invested in news gathering. They're reporting on stories, and then those stories are then, uh, ingested by other people and explained to their social media followers.

Trevor Noah 1:08:33 Yeah.

Eugene 1:08:33 Right.

Katie Couric 1:08:33 Um, you know-

Trevor Noah 1:08:34 Yes

Katie Couric 1:08:34 ... so a lot of these single sort of social media opinion givers and reporters are taking the, the reporting, the core of the reporting done by these news organizations-

Eugene 1:08:48 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Katie Couric 1:08:48 ... and basically, I don't wanna say plagiarizing, but they're basically reporting what these other people-

Eugene 1:08:54 Report.

Trevor Noah 1:08:54 Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes

Katie Couric 1:08:54 ... who have been working so hard to report.

Eugene 1:08:56 Yes. Yep.

Katie Couric 1:08:57 So in a way, it has a ripple effect, and so these news organizations are doing a great service. And even amplifying it-

Eugene 1:09:08 Mm

Katie Couric 1:09:08 ... even if they're putting it in their own words-

Eugene 1:09:10 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 1:09:10 ... is a positive thing because it is the result of oftentimes weeks, if not months, of reporting. If that makes sense.

Eugene 1:09:18 100%.

Trevor Noah 1:09:18 No, it makes, makes complete sense.

Katie Couric 1:09:19 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:09:21 I, I wonder, like, how you grapple with, as a, as a journalist, when to put, um, free speech or, or the freedom of the press above or below what you may perceive as the interests of the country. 'Cause I ... This has always fascinated me. Like, [laughs] you know, America will be conducting a military exercise or something, and then I'll see in the newspaper, they'll go, "Well, the military plans to da, da, da, and they plan to blah, blah, blah." Then I'm like, do other countries not read newspapers? Because it seems weird that you can, you can say, you can report-

Eugene 1:09:57 Yeah, yeah

Trevor Noah 1:09:57 ... what is going to happen. Yeah, like-

Eugene 1:09:59 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:09:59 ... like I'll read in the newspaper that they've just discovered that the military is planning to do X, Y, Z, you know?

Eugene 1:10:06 Well, that's what happened in South Africa. There was a military operation, joint military operation that was ran with the US Army and the South African Army, and the president didn't know about it.

Trevor Noah 1:10:15 And then someone report ... It came out.

Eugene 1:10:16 Yeah, it was reported in the news.

Trevor Noah 1:10:18 Yes, but now-

Eugene 1:10:18 Then he had to call the general in for an inquiry.

Trevor Noah 1:10:20 Yes.

Eugene 1:10:20 Imagine how weird that was.

Trevor Noah 1:10:22 But, but this is what I mean.

Eugene 1:10:22 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:10:23 This is, this is what I'm saying.

Eugene 1:10:24 He, he found out in real time with the rest of us.

Trevor Noah 1:10:26 Yes.

Eugene 1:10:27 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:10:27 But what I'm saying is as a journalist ...

Katie Couric 1:10:29 I think there are national security considerations that I think you pay attention to. Um, if there, if, if, uh ... I'm, I'm trying to think if there was an example like that when I was at the Pentagon.

Trevor Noah 1:10:42 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:10:42 You know, Panama, for example. Um, I think ... I do think that you do weigh sort of national security considerations-

Eugene 1:10:53 Mm

Katie Couric 1:10:53 ... with the public's right to know.

Eugene 1:10:54 Uh-huh.

Katie Couric 1:10:55 You know, and I think it's a case by case situation. So I think that a lot of ... I don't know. Now in the current landscape, who knows, right?

Trevor Noah 1:11:05 Right.

Katie Couric 1:11:05 But I think most legitimate journalists in a certain situation wouldn't necessarily preempt a military action, I'm trying to think of examples, and, and report on them prior to them taking place, but they might. I have to, I have to really think about that and look back on different cases.

Trevor Noah 1:11:23 It's such a strange one because I, I don't know if people ... So okay, like an example. Let's use a hypothetical. Nicolás Maduro, the US military going in and getting him and then bringing him to the US.

Eugene 1:11:34 That's what we call it now?

Trevor Noah 1:11:36 What do, what do you want, what do you want to call it?

Eugene 1:11:37 What do you mean getting him? Like they're giving him a lift.

Trevor Noah 1:11:39 They, they got him.

Eugene 1:11:40 He, he wasn't in a sleepover. He was not like he went to go build a friend-

Trevor Noah 1:11:43 Yeah, but I would hope, I hope you wouldn't say got him for a sleepover

Eugene 1:11:45 ... and his mom went to go get him.

Trevor Noah 1:11:46 Nah, no. That would be picked him up. Got him means like got him. Do you get what I'm saying? That's why you say got him versus picked him. If I said like, "Hey, what happened to my friend Eugene the other day?" I'd be like, "Oh, yeah, I picked him up." I'd never be like, "I got him."

Eugene 1:11:59 Oh, but you could also say, "I'm going to get Eugene later, so I can't meet you at 3:00."

Trevor Noah 1:12:04 I'm going to get Eugene. Yeah, yeah, this is true.

Eugene 1:12:06 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:12:06 I guess it depends on, like, the inflection.

Eugene 1:12:08 But if Eugene does not wanna-

Katie Couric 1:12:09 Maybe say snatched.

Trevor Noah 1:12:10 Snatched.

Eugene 1:12:10 Yeah, if Eugene does not wanna come-

Trevor Noah 1:12:10 Okay, they snatched him

Eugene 1:12:11 ... to your house-

Trevor Noah 1:12:12 Snatched him

Eugene 1:12:12 ... what word would you use?

Trevor Noah 1:12:13 Okay, I'm gonna use snatched then. They went and snatched him. [laughs] They went and snatched him.

Eugene 1:12:19 Okay, sharp. Clear out.

Trevor Noah 1:12:20 Right? Th- that type of story-

Eugene 1:12:24 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:12:25 ... or even let's say Iran, when you look at how the public, and obviously it's not all of the public, but when you look at how, like, the American people have responded post some of these things, maybe Venezuelan people weren't as attached, so they're like, "We don't understand what's happening. We don't understand why we're doing this." But then, like with Iran, the American public seems to be against this en masse. Most of the people in America are going, "We don't want this, and we did not want this." I wonder if a journalist had known-

Katie Couric 1:12:54 Especially when it's a billion dollars a day, right?

Trevor Noah 1:12:56 Is that what it is now? A billion dollars a day? Oh, man, that's a lot of Ozempic people could be buying.

Katie Couric 1:13:04 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:13:04 People are like, "There's no money for healthcare," but there's money, man. If someone could have reported that, 'cause somebody knew something ahead of time-

Eugene 1:13:11 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:13:11 ... I wonder if that type of reporting, which seems to go against the sort of interests of the administration-

Eugene 1:13:20 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:13:21 ... go in the interests of the country. Because if, if, if the country knew beforehand and then the country goes, "We heard this is gonna happen. We don't like it," there's a good chance it wouldn't happen.

Katie Couric 1:13:30 Well, I think it was pretty clear that something was going to happen in Iran, you know, with all the ships that had been deployed and all that, right?

Trevor Noah 1:13:37 Yeah.

Eugene 1:13:37 Mm.

Katie Couric 1:13:38 And y- you think about the lead up to the war in Iraq, right? The whole argument that The Bush administration was making about weapons of mass destruction-

Trevor Noah 1:13:47 Oh, yes

Katie Couric 1:13:47 ... in Iraq-

Trevor Noah 1:13:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Katie Couric 1:13:47 ... that turned out to be wrong, and I think the reporting on that was pretty strong, right? But it was strange because that was sort of post 9/19, and there was a tendency s- certainly for Afghanistan, but later for Iraq, to not question sort of the administration as vociferously as they should have been in the run-up to the war in Iraq.

Trevor Noah 1:14:10 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:14:10 And, uh, the White House correspondents and a lot of journalists were roundly criticized for not questioning what was happening more. Um, but they were definitely reporting on it, and I think, yeah, I, I, I'm gonna go back and look at sort of how military operations, if anyone scooped a military operation, if that had a neg-

Trevor Noah 1:14:30 Mm

Katie Couric 1:14:30 ... a, a, a negative impact on the execution of that operation.

Trevor Noah 1:14:34 That would be fascinating to know.

Katie Couric 1:14:35 Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:14:36 That's a really interesting one.

Katie Couric 1:14:36 I'm sure there are a lot of cases. I ... Yeah, I can't think of any now. [instrumental music]

Trevor Noah 1:14:42 We'll be right back after this short break. [instrumental music] How do you, um, or how have you, I should say, 'cause I think you've done a, a really good job of it. How have you managed to be Katie Couric the person and Katie Couric the journalist for as long as you have, and sort of maintained, especially on the journalistic side, the, the, like, the, the prestige of that role and not lost it because people, like, know who you are? You know, you, you've spoken about your family, you've spoken about loss, you've spoken about death in your life. You've, you, you've shared so many things as a human being.

Katie Couric 1:15:26 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:15:27 And yet at the same time, I, I don't know how to explain it. It's almost like it hasn't celebrity-fied your, your journalism, if that makes sense. People still-

Eugene 1:15:35 Hasn't tainted it.

Trevor Noah 1:15:36 Yeah, yeah, because you know sometimes-

Eugene 1:15:37 Influenced it. Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:15:37 ... sometimes, sometimes some news people or some journalists-

Katie Couric 1:15:43 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:15:43 ... start to, like, become the stories-

Eugene 1:15:45 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 1:15:46 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:15:46 ... in some ways.

Katie Couric 1:15:46 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:15:47 I wonder how you've, how you've, how you've ... Have you purposefully looked to strike that balance, a- and how have you done that?

Katie Couric 1:15:53 Not really. I mean, um, I sort of don't feel like I am two different people. Uh, and, and at times I think I have become the story, right? In a way I used my husband's death to become a cancer advocate, right? And so that is when my personal plight and my journalism have intersected-

Trevor Noah 1:16:15 Right

Katie Couric 1:16:15 ... right?

Eugene 1:16:15 Mm.

Katie Couric 1:16:16 Um, in terms of trying to inform the public about colon cancer-

Trevor Noah 1:16:20 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:16:20 ... and colon cancer screenings. Uh-

Trevor Noah 1:16:23 I mean, they, they still call that the Couric Effect, right?

Katie Couric 1:16:25 Well, the, the fact that, yeah, colon cancer screenings increased 20% after I did a colonoscopy on-

Trevor Noah 1:16:30 Amazing

Katie Couric 1:16:30 ... the Today Show. I know.

Trevor Noah 1:16:32 Amazing.

Katie Couric 1:16:32 It was crazy.

Trevor Noah 1:16:32 Sorry for your loss, by the way.

Katie Couric 1:16:34 Thank you.

Trevor Noah 1:16:34 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:16:34 I appreciate that.

Trevor Noah 1:16:35 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:16:35 Um, but I don't know. That's kind of ... I, I don't even know how to answer that question. Uh, I am m- a person and I'm a journalist, and listen, I try to do the best I can in both roles, right? [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:16:50 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:16:50 Um, yeah, I don't really see a delineation between ... Yeah, of course I have my personal life-

Trevor Noah 1:16:59 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:16:59 ... that I don't necessarily share with everyone. Um, and then I have my, my professional desire to keep people informed.

Trevor Noah 1:17:08 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:17:09 But I don't know. That's a, I've never been asked that question and I don't really know how to answer it.

Trevor Noah 1:17:14 How do you take a break from being informed? I, I, I ask this-

Katie Couric 1:17:18 It's hard, you know

Trevor Noah 1:17:18 ... selfishly.

Katie Couric 1:17:20 It's really hard because the, the volume and velocity of stuff coming to you, if you kind of check out for a day-

Eugene 1:17:30 You missed a whole world

Katie Couric 1:17:31 ... I feel like, oh my God, I don't-

Trevor Noah 1:17:32 Yeah. You missed a war.

Eugene 1:17:33 You missed a war.

Trevor Noah 1:17:33 Yeah. [laughs]

Katie Couric 1:17:33 I feel like I don't know what's going on.

Eugene 1:17:35 You lose a billion dollars a day.

Trevor Noah 1:17:36 Yeah. No, you really do.

Katie Couric 1:17:37 Right? And, and you're like, "Oh my God, wait. What?"

Trevor Noah 1:17:40 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:17:40 And there's so much to keep up with and, you know, and I was just rereading a couple of stories, you know, preparing for our conversation, and I was like, "I have to really understand why the CDC kept this report about the COVID vaccine from being made public." I know they did it, I saw the headline, but I don't know enough about-

Trevor Noah 1:18:02 Why?

Katie Couric 1:18:02 ... why they did it.

Trevor Noah 1:18:03 And what did they say?

Katie Couric 1:18:04 And, well, I just read-

Trevor Noah 1:18:05 'Cause I, 'cause I also read that, but all I thought was that they were just like, "We don't think that this is valid," or-

Katie Couric 1:18:09 They, they, they questioned the methodology-

Trevor Noah 1:18:11 That's what I mean, yeah

Katie Couric 1:18:12 ... which was, you know, that this morbidity, mortality weekly report, which must be really [laughs] a fun read, that is published by the CDC and has never changed how they go about-

Trevor Noah 1:18:24 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Katie Couric 1:18:24 ... analyzing information. Um, they, they ... Because, well, they kept it, they blocked it because it didn't f- fit with their narrative-

Trevor Noah 1:18:33 Narrative

Katie Couric 1:18:33 ... because it showed the COVID vaccine decreased emergency room visits by 55% and hospitalizations by 50%. And this is a CDC and, uh, you know, uh, department of, um, you know, uh, RFK Jr.'s d- what is his, it's, um, what is RFK in charge of, you guys? It, it's, uh-

Trevor Noah 1:18:58 What is it, health secretary? What is he?

Katie Couric 1:18:59 Yeah, secre- yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:19:00 You guys call it the-

Katie Couric 1:19:01 Health and Human Services

Trevor Noah 1:19:01 ... yeah.

Katie Couric 1:19:01 HHS.

Trevor Noah 1:19:01 Health and Human Services. Yes.

Katie Couric 1:19:02 Sorry. Health and Human Services, sorry.

Eugene 1:19:04 The Department of Health.

Katie Couric 1:19:04 I'm getting my acronym-

Trevor Noah 1:19:05 Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, we call it the Department of Health

Katie Couric 1:19:06 ... acronyms all mixed up.

Eugene 1:19:06 Yeah, we call it Department of Health. Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:19:07 Health and Human Services.

Trevor Noah 1:19:08 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:19:08 You know, they are clearly anti-vaccine.

Trevor Noah 1:19:12 Right.

Katie Couric 1:19:12 Anti-COVID vaccine. So they are suppressing a report that showed the positive impact-

Eugene 1:19:18 Of the vaccine

Katie Couric 1:19:19 ... of the COVID vaccine.

Trevor Noah 1:19:20 Trump's vaccine, may I add, I don't know why my man gets no credit for that vaccine He put Operation Warp Speed into effect

Katie Couric 1:19:28 Right

Trevor Noah 1:19:28 You remember this?

Katie Couric 1:19:28 Right, yes. And in fact, somebody was talking the other day-

Trevor Noah 1:19:30 Trump was proud of this

Katie Couric 1:19:31 ... on Capitol Hill

Trevor Noah 1:19:31 And he was pushing it hard

Katie Couric 1:19:33 He was one, one-

Trevor Noah 1:19:33 Trump was the one

Katie Couric 1:19:33 ... of his proudest accomplishments, right?

Trevor Noah 1:19:35 It was one of his proudest.

Katie Couric 1:19:36 And-

Trevor Noah 1:19:36 And he should be proud of it

Katie Couric 1:19:37 And, and now, you know, obviously it doesn't fit the narrative.

Trevor Noah 1:19:41 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:19:41 So-

Eugene 1:19:42 Now he's stepping back from the responsibility of it?

Trevor Noah 1:19:44 No, not even. It's like, what happened was weird.

Eugene 1:19:46 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:19:46 Trump was responsible for, like he was at the, the head of spearheading this COVID-19 vaccine-

Eugene 1:19:52 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:19:52 ... in record time

Eugene 1:19:53 The rollout.

Trevor Noah 1:19:53 Not just the rollout, but the-

Eugene 1:19:54 The acceptance of it

Trevor Noah 1:19:55 ... uh, getting the entire scientific community to-

Eugene 1:19:58 Ah

Trevor Noah 1:19:58 ... research a thing, to put into place a system that normally would take up to a decade or something.

Eugene 1:20:04 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:20:04 And saying, "How do we run certain processes concurrently to make sure that we can get this out as quickly as possible so the world can come back to life?"

Eugene 1:20:11 That's a good thing, right?

Trevor Noah 1:20:11 It was a fantastic thing.

Katie Couric 1:20:12 It's a fantastic thing.

Trevor Noah 1:20:13 Trump was also proud of it, by the way.

Katie Couric 1:20:14 It saved so many lives.

Trevor Noah 1:20:15 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:20:15 And of course, mRNA, uh, vaccines and this whole approach is actually responsible for this new immunotherapy that they think has a lot of promise for pancreatic cancer. So-

Trevor Noah 1:20:27 Oh

Katie Couric 1:20:27 ... not only was the COVID, COVID vaccine a positive, it also led to a lot of other vaccines for other serious-

Trevor Noah 1:20:36 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 1:20:36 ... illnesses-

Trevor Noah 1:20:37 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 1:20:37 ... and a new kind of, um, you know, therap- therapeutic approach. So, but in this world where black is white and white is Black and up is down [laughs] and down-

Trevor Noah 1:20:47 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:20:47 ... is up-

Trevor Noah 1:20:48 It didn't fit with, it didn't fit with what the base and the narrative were going with.

Eugene 1:20:53 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:20:54 And so what was strange was, Trump said it at one of his rallies, I remember. He said, he's like, "The COVID vaccine was my vaccine. I did it, I did," and the crowd like boo. He's like, "A lot of pe- but they don't like that. They don't like it, so I don't talk about it. I don't talk about it."

Eugene 1:21:07 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:21:07 But he was like, "Yo, I did that thing. It's not Biden's vaccine, it's my vaccine." But because the peop- his people didn't like it-

Eugene 1:21:13 Don't want him to talk about it

Katie Couric 1:21:13 Right

Trevor Noah 1:21:13 ... he was like, "All right, fine. But it is mine, but I, uh, fine, nobody wants to talk about it."

Katie Couric 1:21:17 I don't wanna, and I'm not gonna talk about it anymore.

Trevor Noah 1:21:19 Hm. Yeah. But okay, I see what you mean, so-

Katie Couric 1:21:20 Okay, so assault on science is so infuriating, especially someone like me who's done s- tried to devote so much time to cancer research-

Trevor Noah 1:21:29 Yeah, yeah

Katie Couric 1:21:29 ... to raising money to support science, and this, this idea that, that, you know, people don't believe the scientific community. And the way that Anthony Fauci has been demonized-

Trevor Noah 1:21:43 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:21:44 ... is just, in my view, a disgrace.

Trevor Noah 1:21:46 Yeah. I think, I think it's a, you know, it's one of those things where hindsight is 2020. So I remember when we had Dr. Fauci on the show and I asked him this question, or a version of it, it's just like, "How much do you feel responsibility to inform people of what's happening?" 'Cause at the time, the thing I said as well about, like, the CDC and all of it was they were giving mixed messages. You know, so first they told us, "Don't wear masks. Please do not wear masks. Masks are not for you. Don't wear the masks. Don't wear the masks." And then all of a sudden they're like, "Everyone get a mask." And we're like, "What the hell just happened here?"

Eugene 1:22:19 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:22:19 And it was like, uh, this many feet away from other people, and no, no feet away. Do indoor, no outdoor. And then when you realize they were trying to, like, manage people.

Eugene 1:22:29 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:22:29 I was, that was like the only criticism I had was I went, regardless of your intentions, and I think parents see this a lot, sometimes you think you're gonna lie to your kid for a good reason-

Katie Couric 1:22:41 Right

Trevor Noah 1:22:41 ... and your kid will appreciate it.

Katie Couric 1:22:42 I think they should have been more transparent-

Trevor Noah 1:22:44 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:22:44 ... that this is a new virus. We are learning-

Trevor Noah 1:22:47 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:22:48 ... about it every day.

Trevor Noah 1:22:49 As it goes.

Katie Couric 1:22:49 We're learning about transmission.

Trevor Noah 1:22:51 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:22:51 We're learning about how deadly it is. We are learning, and we are really doing this as we go.

Trevor Noah 1:22:59 Sweden did that.

Katie Couric 1:23:00 Yeah. And I think that that would have perhaps made people less critical of kind of, oh wait, now this, now that.

Trevor Noah 1:23:09 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:23:10 Actually, on the other hand-

Trevor Noah 1:23:11 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:23:11 ... well, we've reevaluated this. And I think that science, you know, there's an art to science too, and it's cumulative and you, y- you don't necessarily have all the answers immediately.

Trevor Noah 1:23:25 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:23:26 And I think the scientific and medical community did an incredible job of taking this pandemic and trying to understand it, but I think there was something lost in communicating-

Trevor Noah 1:23:37 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:23:37 ... what they were learning to the general public.

Trevor Noah 1:23:40 Yeah. It's a, it's, it's, it's a shame-

Katie Couric 1:23:42 But I don't think it warrants the kind of, um-

Trevor Noah 1:23:46 Oh, no, like the world ending demo- it's like, it's, it's extreme. It's ex- but it's also, again, it goes back to the sports of it all.

Katie Couric 1:23:53 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:23:55 If you ask sports fans what should happen to somebody who's made a bad tackle, depends on the team.

Katie Couric 1:24:01 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:24:01 Some would be like, "Ah, come on, we, that happens. Get a, walk it off." The other times they're like, "No, kick him out of the game. Eject that person and ban them even." That was the, the most flagrant... So I think-

Katie Couric 1:24:11 The tribalism is just-

Trevor Noah 1:24:13 It, yeah, that, that is-

Katie Couric 1:24:13 ... out of control

Trevor Noah 1:24:14 ... marred how Americans in particular, I find, discuss any issue. You know?

Katie Couric 1:24:19 But I also think-

Trevor Noah 1:24:19 Like even, even, this is something I've always wondered, even in journalism. When did that thing, uh, not that you would immediately know, but why do they put Republican or Democrat before somebody's name in the article?

Eugene 1:24:31 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:24:31 Like, why, why does, why does American news report things like that? Or they'll even say, "A win for Democrats as, um, childcare law passes w- " Then I'm like, but why don't they just say, "Childcare law has passed?"

Eugene 1:24:43 Yeah. Win for the people.

Trevor Noah 1:24:45 Yeah, I've always wondered that. Like, why, why do they, in my opinion-

Katie Couric 1:24:49 I guess in a two-party system you-

Eugene 1:24:51 Have to

Katie Couric 1:24:52 ... you, I, I guess maybe it's a way of, of figuring out people's priorities-

Trevor Noah 1:24:58 Mm

Katie Couric 1:24:58 ... and getting back to elections, you know, what they care about and what they choose to focus on-

Trevor Noah 1:25:03 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:25:04 ... and move the needle on.

Trevor Noah 1:25:05 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:25:05 Right?

Eugene 1:25:06 What promise seems delivered and by who.

Trevor Noah 1:25:08 Yeah, but, but what I mean, okay, so it would be different if it, if the headline said, "Democrats promised childcare law. It has now been passed."

Eugene 1:25:18 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:25:18 I know this is not a sexy headline, right? But that is what happened. But if they go, "In a win for Democrats, childcare law passed," to me it makes it seem like the Republicans have lost- And the Democrats have won, and the childcare law doesn't have anything to do with the children in the law, it just has to do with who passed it.

Katie Couric 1:25:40 I mean, I don't know where you saw that headline-

Trevor Noah 1:25:42 Oh, no, no

Katie Couric 1:25:43 ... but if that was the-

Trevor Noah 1:25:43 I'm, this is the-

Katie Couric 1:25:43 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:25:43 ... this is a headline I'm para- I, but I could-

Katie Couric 1:25:45 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:25:45 ... pull them. There's, there's always, like, in a windfall, in a, you know? And the, and then the other one is just when people speak, so they'll go, um, "Republican Katie Couric passes law on..." or, "Says that we need to have fewer this." And sometimes I think if you could remove that R or D before the issue, I think people would approach it with a more neutral and honest opinion.

Katie Couric 1:26:10 Perhaps.

Trevor Noah 1:26:10 You know? Did you ever see that, that quiz that The New York Times did? You, you, you didn't see this, but you, you'd love this though. You'd love this.

Eugene 1:26:16 How do you know I didn't see the quiz?

Trevor Noah 1:26:17 Ah, bro, you don't read. I know this. So- [laughs]

Eugene 1:26:22 [laughs]

Katie Couric 1:26:22 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:26:22 No, so it was, it was here in The New York Times. Um, they put out a quiz. It was around like when Hillary, Bernie, everyone was running, so I think like 2016, somewhere there. And the quiz was, "You just choose your issues. We'll tell you who you should vote for."

Eugene 1:26:41 Oh, wow.

Trevor Noah 1:26:41 And I remember in the building, we did this in, in the office, and everyone ran this quiz, right? And I was working at The Daily Show at the time, and so, you know, some people are liberal, some people conservative, some people d- y- everyone... But everyone had their idea. They were so confident. They're like, "Oh, I, I know I'm gonna get Hillary. I know this for sure." "Oh, I'm definitely gonna get this per- I'm definitely gonna get that pers-"

Eugene 1:27:01 Kind of like blind tasting of issues.

Trevor Noah 1:27:02 It was literally that. You just, "Do you think America spends, A, too much money on the military? B, not enough money? C, just the right amount? D, wa..." You know what I mean?

Eugene 1:27:11 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:27:11 They did that for every issue. And at the end they would go, "This is the candidate who aligns with you."

Eugene 1:27:18 And?

Trevor Noah 1:27:18 The amount of panic and angst in the building when people got their results, and it, it even went viral at the time, but I remember people going, "This can't be right. I'm not a Bernie voter." And you're like, "No, no, no, but everything you want-

Eugene 1:27:32 Your issues align-

Trevor Noah 1:27:33 ... he wants"

Eugene 1:27:33 ... with the candidate.

Trevor Noah 1:27:35 And that's when I realized half of the time we are not looking at the issue, we are looking at the person we associate the issue with, and then we're making the decision based on that.

Eugene 1:27:46 But circle back to my earlier proposition of how elections should be running.

Trevor Noah 1:27:52 This is not election time. We're not going back to this.

Eugene 1:27:53 You're voting on the issue.

Trevor Noah 1:27:55 No, no, no. No, no, I agree with... But what I'm saying is, do you get what I mean? Like-

Eugene 1:27:57 Don't agree. Uh, uh, uh, Katie, please, you're a journalist.

Trevor Noah 1:27:59 [laughs]

Eugene 1:27:59 You know this tactic.

Trevor Noah 1:28:01 [laughs]

Eugene 1:28:01 He's printing a retraction-

Trevor Noah 1:28:03 I'm not printing a retraction

Eugene 1:28:04 ... in a small font.

Trevor Noah 1:28:04 No, no, no, I said I agree with, I said I agree it's issue-based

Eugene 1:28:06 But you said it quickly.

Trevor Noah 1:28:07 No, I-

Eugene 1:28:07 You passed

Trevor Noah 1:28:07 ... no, I, no, no, but I originally agreed-

Eugene 1:28:09 Okay, say it slower

Trevor Noah 1:28:09 ... it was issue-based. No, I, I had already agreed with it.

Eugene 1:28:11 Okay, sure.

Trevor Noah 1:28:12 The thing I didn't agree with you on was the bureaucrat buddy coming to elections.

Eugene 1:28:15 Okay, I back up bureaucrat buddy.

Trevor Noah 1:28:16 Yeah, bureaucrat buddy I didn't agree with.

Eugene 1:28:18 It's all okay, okay.

Trevor Noah 1:28:18 Yeah, that I didn't agree with. [laughs] Do you, but do you understand what I'm saying? It's like I, I wonder, maybe responsibility's the wrong word, but there's one part of journalism that is finding out the facts and the information and what is going on.

Eugene 1:28:34 And verifying them.

Trevor Noah 1:28:35 There's another part that is framing it. How is it put to people?

Eugene 1:28:39 Packaging it.

Trevor Noah 1:28:40 Yes.

Eugene 1:28:40 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:28:41 And I, I, th- that's the thing I sometimes, I just find myself wondering, 'cause I didn't grow up like that, is like w- why is it necessary to have that person's political affiliation when they were just saying or doing something? Because then I think it, it limits a person's ability to just go, "I like or don't like that."

Katie Couric 1:29:01 Or to say a Republican can actually have a good policy-

Trevor Noah 1:29:04 That's what I mean

Katie Couric 1:29:04 ... or a Democrat-

Trevor Noah 1:29:05 That's exactly what I mean

Katie Couric 1:29:05 ... a Democrat can actually, that's a good idea.

Trevor Noah 1:29:07 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:29:07 Well, hopefully these things are bipartisan. [laughs] I mean, I'm, I'd like to go back and see the headlines that you have in mind. I mean, I think that people just, I don't know, you know, it's just very, very traditional and very, um, I think has the way it's been done with Republicans and Democrats and... I, I don't know. I, I don't, I don't see a problem with that.

Trevor Noah 1:29:35 You don't?

Katie Couric 1:29:36 Mm-mm.

Trevor Noah 1:29:37 Huh.

Katie Couric 1:29:38 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:29:38 You know when I, when I realized how powerful it can be was when, um, we did a piece on how... There, there was a, there was a town, uh, I forget where this was, but basically someone was running for mayor in a city, and in this city, and I think there's a few places like this, you're not allowed to say whether you're Republican or Democrat when you're running for mayor. You just run.

Eugene 1:30:01 Really?

Trevor Noah 1:30:02 Yeah. And this place has, like, one of the highest rates-

Eugene 1:30:06 I like that

Trevor Noah 1:30:06 ... of people voting across party lines.

Eugene 1:30:09 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:30:09 Because they don't know which party the person's from, so they just go, "Who's running? Eugene. Eugene wants clean water. Eugene thinks there should be more cows, there should be fewer windmills," and-

Eugene 1:30:20 Parents should get more, more, more votes.

Trevor Noah 1:30:22 Parents should have more votes.

Eugene 1:30:23 People should vote on issues-

Trevor Noah 1:30:24 Okay

Eugene 1:30:24 ... instead of individuals.

Trevor Noah 1:30:25 Exactly. And then they go like, "Okay, we've also got Katie Couric."

Eugene 1:30:27 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:30:28 "Ka- Katie wants more journalism, more desks at the Pentagon, more egg sandwiches, and she-"

Eugene 1:30:33 More deep throats.

Trevor Noah 1:30:33 "And she wants more-

Eugene 1:30:35 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:30:35 ... um, colonoscopies-

Eugene 1:30:37 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:30:37 ... and this is her platform that she's running on."

Eugene 1:30:39 Yes.

Trevor Noah 1:30:40 The people vote-

Eugene 1:30:40 Trevor wants

Trevor Noah 1:30:41 ... the people vote.

Eugene 1:30:42 Trevor wants...

Trevor Noah 1:30:43 Good times.

Katie Couric 1:30:43 So you're saying that-

Eugene 1:30:44 Oh. [laughs]

Katie Couric 1:30:45 ... the, the obsession with two parties is polarizing-

Trevor Noah 1:30:48 No, no, no

Katie Couric 1:30:49 ... in and of itself.

Eugene 1:30:50 The party itself-

Trevor Noah 1:30:50 No, I'm, I'm saying-

Eugene 1:30:50 ... and the idea that it stands for

Trevor Noah 1:30:51 ... I'm saying the identity of it first-

Eugene 1:30:52 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:30:53 ... mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:30:53 ... I believe-

Eugene 1:30:54 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:30:54 ... limits people's ability. If I met you and the first thing you said to me was, "Hi, Republican Katie Couric," no matter what, my brain has now put you in a certain space.

Katie Couric 1:31:06 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:31:07 Even if you said, "Hi, Democrat Katie Couric," I'd be like, okay, my brain has put you in a space.

Katie Couric 1:31:12 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:31:12 "Hello, Liverpool supporter, Trevor Noah." Your brain already goes, if you're a Manchester United supporter, you're like, "I don't know about this guy."

Eugene 1:31:19 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:31:19 For me, the joy is you meet people, you talk, you discuss things, you experience life. And then at some point somebody goes You're an Eagles fan? Oh, man. I'm a Chiefs fan. I didn't know you're an Eagles fan the whole time. I, okay, okay. That's, that's what I think it robs people of, honestly, in my opinion.

Katie Couric 1:31:34 No, I understand what you're saying. There was a Heineken commercial a few years ago about people putting together a bar. Did you ever see this?

Trevor Noah 1:31:41 Building things together.

Katie Couric 1:31:42 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:31:43 Yes.

Katie Couric 1:31:43 And nobody knew anything about anyone's background, and there was a trans person there.

Trevor Noah 1:31:50 Yes.

Katie Couric 1:31:50 There were, a, just kind of a whole kind of-

Trevor Noah 1:31:53 It was a complete gamut

Katie Couric 1:31:54 ... slice of life. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:31:55 It ran, yeah.

Katie Couric 1:31:56 And it basically, I think this is sort of the point you're making, to, to kind of get rid of your pr- preconceived notions and to be more open-minded for different perspectives. By the time they finished doing the bar, they all kind of had done something together. They had talked to each other. They'd gotten to know each other.

Trevor Noah 1:32:14 Hm.

Katie Couric 1:32:15 And it removed all these kind of, you know, uh, very specific, um, you know, preconceptions-

Trevor Noah 1:32:23 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:32:24 ... about each other. So I think i- if that's what you're saying, I understand. I mean, I don't know about removing the D and the R, if [laughs] that's gonna be the solution, but-

Trevor Noah 1:32:34 Oh, not solution. I just like a-

Katie Couric 1:32:36 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:32:36 Like a-

Katie Couric 1:32:36 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:32:36 ... it's like I'm pitching an amendment is where I go. 'Cause t- 'cause to your point, what, you know what I loved about that commercial in particular was they brought people in.

Katie Couric 1:32:45 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:32:45 They knew they had very extreme views about certain issues. Right. They made them work on something together. They would work, and they would struggle, and they built something together, and then afterwards they'd get them to say why the other person was so good and why they worked well together.

Katie Couric 1:32:59 Hm.

Trevor Noah 1:32:59 And they'd be like, "Oh, man, you know, Eugene really builds well, and Katie is such a f- wonderful teammate." And they had all these effusive things. And then they said, "All right. Now we want to show you a video." And they gave you, like, a video.

Katie Couric 1:33:10 A- and the person des- uh, described who they were.

Trevor Noah 1:33:13 Yes, and then it was like, "Hello, Eugene. Here's a video," and it was Katie Couric.

Katie Couric 1:33:15 We should watch it, actually.

Trevor Noah 1:33:16 It, it's amazing. Yeah. It's amazing. And then you get the video, and it's like, "I'm Katie Couric. Man, if there's one thing I hate, it's South Africans, short South Africans who are comedians with glasses." [laughs] "I hate them with all my heart." Me too. They just [laughs] they just-

Katie Couric 1:33:31 Or more like-

Trevor Noah 1:33:32 Why are you kidding?

Katie Couric 1:33:33 ... "I am a woman. I believe in a woman's right to choose."

Trevor Noah 1:33:36 Yes. Yeah, yeah, it was, yeah.

Katie Couric 1:33:38 "I believe in this. I believe in-"

Trevor Noah 1:33:39 So all of this is discovered after-

Katie Couric 1:33:40 ... "LGBTQ rights."

Trevor Noah 1:33:41 Yes.

Katie Couric 1:33:41 "I believe in this." Um-

Trevor Noah 1:33:43 Oh

Katie Couric 1:33:43 ... and it j- it just, it just kind of, um, all these differences evaporated, and it was, it was very interesting.

Trevor Noah 1:33:52 It was beautiful because people said-

Katie Couric 1:33:54 People saw each other as humans, not-

Trevor Noah 1:33:56 There you go

Katie Couric 1:33:57 ... as, uh-

Trevor Noah 1:33:59 There you go

Katie Couric 1:33:59 ... ideologues.

Trevor Noah 1:34:01 Wow. I sometimes w- do you think that that's also part of the role of journalism is to make everyone in a society see the other people in that society?

Katie Couric 1:34:11 Yeah, but I think it's really hard now because I think when you're, there's so much fragmentation and you want to get an audience, there's a, a real, um, there's an advantage to appealing to people who feel strongly-

Trevor Noah 1:34:31 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:34:31 ... one way or another.

Trevor Noah 1:34:33 Oh, yes.

Katie Couric 1:34:33 And it's, it's less of let's talk about the nuances of this story. It's more, as my friend Kara Swisher says, like engagement through enragement. How do you get people?

Trevor Noah 1:34:47 Hm.

Katie Couric 1:34:47 Especially social media and these platforms obviously-

Trevor Noah 1:34:49 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:34:50 ... are all, it's all about the attention economy-

Trevor Noah 1:34:52 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 1:34:52 ... how long you're gonna stay on the platform-

Trevor Noah 1:34:54 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 1:34:54 ... how much you're gonna engage on the platform. And so I think that there's not, there's not an emphasis on kind of a conversation where two people could show a different point of view.

Trevor Noah 1:35:09 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:35:10 I mean, I guess Abby Phillip does that in some ways on her CNN show. Um, but it's, it, that show frustrates me too sometimes because-

Trevor Noah 1:35:21 Why?

Katie Couric 1:35:21 ... well, like last night, or I saw a clip, or maybe it was last night, that they were talking about all the very incendiary things that President Trump has said.

Trevor Noah 1:35:31 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:35:32 And this one Republican kept insisting that he was really changing the dialogue, but he would not, or changing kind of the temperature, lowering the temperature of, of debate or whatever he was saying, and yet he would not concede that some of the things that Trump has said-

Trevor Noah 1:35:51 Hm

Katie Couric 1:35:52 ... are wrong. Wrong.

Trevor Noah 1:35:54 Yeah. Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:35:54 You know?

Trevor Noah 1:35:55 Hm.

Katie Couric 1:35:55 You know, you don't cheer when Robert Mueller dies.

Trevor Noah 1:35:58 Right, yeah.

Katie Couric 1:35:58 You know, a true patriot, you know? And so many things. I mean, we could list chapter and verse-

Trevor Noah 1:36:04 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Katie Couric 1:36:04 ... all the things, the incendiary and just honestly, you know, uh, disgusting things that, that Trump has said and done, and he would not, he would not just say, "You know what? That was wrong. He shouldn't do that." It's sort of like he didn't want to give an inch.

Trevor Noah 1:36:24 No, but there's no reward in that I find now.

Katie Couric 1:36:27 Well, that's what I'm saying.

Trevor Noah 1:36:27 Yeah, in society.

Katie Couric 1:36:28 So it's like-

Trevor Noah 1:36:28 Oh, okay, I hear you. Yeah. There's no reward.

Katie Couric 1:36:29 He is describing, he is on a team-

Trevor Noah 1:36:32 Yes

Katie Couric 1:36:32 ... to get back to your-

Trevor Noah 1:36:33 Yes

Katie Couric 1:36:33 ... sort of team point, and he does not want to do anything that will make people doubt his-

Trevor Noah 1:36:38 Mm-hmm

Katie Couric 1:36:38 ... loyalty to that team.

Trevor Noah 1:36:40 Hm. I would even argue-

Katie Couric 1:36:42 So the, the environment just isn't receptive to kind of this give and take.

Trevor Noah 1:36:47 Hm.

Katie Couric 1:36:48 It's everyone is sort of has picked their side, right?

Trevor Noah 1:36:50 Yeah, but I, but I would even argue in that instance, I would, I would levy some of the blame on the producers of the show because I would go, "You know full well that you're not bringing somebody here to have a meaningful discussion. You're bringing somebody to play a part- Yeah ... against somebody who's playing a part." Yeah. Because when I watch those shows- It's casting ... yeah, the, the people are very much, you can say whatever, and it'll be like, "Oh, uh, uh, Donald Trump choked a puppy. Well, let me, I mean, who likes puppies? Come on, let's talk." And you're like, well, you don't think that, but because your job here is to be the pro-Trump or Republican person-

Katie Couric 1:37:26 Right

Trevor Noah 1:37:26 ... and your job is to be the pro-Democrat, pro- I almost go like, I'm like, "Oh, we haven't, we actually haven't created a show about discourse and dialogue. We've created the theater of it-

Eugene 1:37:36 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:37:36 ... that makes both sides feel seen." And it feels like a, a way to like try and grab both sides, but it doesn't feel like a meaningful way to actually have a discussion.

Katie Couric 1:37:45 Yeah, I agree. And I guess the question is, again, I, I think just because I've covered so many administrations, do we normalize some of the things the Trump administration is doing by giving it weight in an argument?

Trevor Noah 1:38:04 Mm.

Katie Couric 1:38:05 Right? And are these policy differences or is it something more dangerous?

Trevor Noah 1:38:13 Right.

Katie Couric 1:38:15 And, and the question is, do you legitimize that by having that conversation? I don't know.

Trevor Noah 1:38:23 Yeah, do-

Katie Couric 1:38:23 You know, that's the, that's the conundrum

Trevor Noah 1:38:24 ... if, if you, if you apply the normal way of doing things to an abnormal thing-

Katie Couric 1:38:30 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:38:30 ... are you now making the abnormal normal?

Eugene 1:38:32 Very normal.

Katie Couric 1:38:33 Yeah.

Eugene 1:38:33 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:38:33 Essentially, is what you're saying. So when, when, I mean, we, we, we've, we find you at a point in your journey. You know, it feels like one of your many evolutions. W- what is your, what is your dream? What is your, like, if you, if you look at what you're doing now in life, where you're trying to go with it, what do you hope it becomes, and what do you hope it fills in society?

Katie Couric 1:38:56 I mean, I don't hope it becomes anything. I hope that I can continue to give voice to people who have the wisdom, and the experience, and the understanding, and the knowledge to share what we're all witnessing together, and to give it a perspective that I think is right. Um, you know, I ask the questions. I don't always have the answers, but if I want to talk to somebody who I think does, who can give an honest appraisal of what's going on, and, uh, uh, that's what I wanna help share with the world. If that's helpful to people, if that, if, if, if their, the way they see the world, I mean, obviously I'm giving them a platform, so there has to be some kind of a level of me kind of feeling like their views are worth-

Trevor Noah 1:39:58 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:39:58 ... exposing and-

Trevor Noah 1:40:00 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:40:00 ... airing and-

Eugene 1:40:00 Mm

Katie Couric 1:40:00 ... and putting out there for the public.

Eugene 1:40:03 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:40:03 Um, but, but that's what I hope to continue to do. I think, you know, I gave a speech last night. I got an award, and I was talking about how science-

Trevor Noah 1:40:13 Congratulations.

Eugene 1:40:13 Congratulations

Katie Couric 1:40:13 ... oh, thank you. Science is refuted, how, um, you know, the Constitution is being ignored.

Trevor Noah 1:40:19 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:40:20 How expertise is being derided. So all those things, I want to give voice to, and that's, that's all, I wanna be of service to democracy [laughs] in any way I can.

Trevor Noah 1:40:35 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:40:36 Um, and to the values that I hold dear, you know, scientific discovery and advancement, uh, the rule of law, [laughs] you know?

Trevor Noah 1:40:47 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:40:50 Um, uh, expertise, you know. I was reviewing, uh, this book by Tom Nichols, I think it was written in 2017. It was called The Death of Expertise, and why people don't trust people who have a deep well of, uh, of knowledge-

Trevor Noah 1:41:05 Mm

Katie Couric 1:41:05 ... in a certain area because everyone is an expert now.

Trevor Noah 1:41:09 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:41:09 Everyone has an opinion. And then I think the democratization of media means that everyone thinks everyone's opinion holds the same weight.

Trevor Noah 1:41:18 Yeah.

Eugene 1:41:18 Mm.

Katie Couric 1:41:18 But it doesn't. There's so many opinions without portfolio out there.

Eugene 1:41:22 Mm.

Katie Couric 1:41:23 I wanna talk to the, about the COVID vaccine with a scientist who has studied it, you know, and who, who will really truly understand the impact of it, not somebody who's trying to kind of, uh, perpetrate a narrative-

Trevor Noah 1:41:37 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:41:37 ... about the v- you know, the vaccines are unsafe. You know, nothing is 100% safe, by the way, and I think that that needs to be transparent, too, to the American public.

Trevor Noah 1:41:49 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:41:50 But, um, you know, so, so trying to use my ability to elicit questions and to ask questions that I think most people have, and to be able to turn to somebody who really understands an issue, who understands, like, the role of NATO in the 20th century. And, you know, post-World War II, and what it has done, and what is it, it has meant, while acknowledging that perhaps some countries haven't paid enough, right?

Trevor Noah 1:42:21 Right, right.

Katie Couric 1:42:21 Into NATO. Uh, but, but kind of understanding the framework, I wanna talk to a historian who can talk about that.

Eugene 1:42:29 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:42:29 Right.

Katie Couric 1:42:29 Um, not somebody who just says, "NATO sucks, and they're not paying their fair share." Right?

Trevor Noah 1:42:37 It's the nuance.

Katie Couric 1:42:37 I mean-

Trevor Noah 1:42:37 It's the nuance and the complication, and I think, yeah, your, your, your, um, your endeavor is valid because I think it does something. Y- one of the first things you said in, in explaining this is you said, I paraphrase you, but basically you said something to the effect of, "I want to report on the world and the realities that we are all experiencing." I think that is one of the most important things-

Katie Couric 1:43:04 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:43:04 ... we take for granted is just giving people A view of a reality that we do share.

Eugene 1:43:12 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:43:13 I always say, "Let's argue about reality, but let's not dispute it." We can argue all we want.

Eugene 1:43:20 Science, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:43:20 Yeah, but let's not dispute reality itself. We are gonna-

Katie Couric 1:43:23 And also, you know, it's, it's messy.

Trevor Noah 1:43:26 Yeah, it is messy.

Katie Couric 1:43:26 There's no clear-cut answer on some of these things. You know, my daughter often talks about the ability to think dialectically, "Yes, and..."

Eugene 1:43:35 Hmm.

Katie Couric 1:43:35 And I think we've lost our ability to do that. Yes, two things may be true at the same time.

Trevor Noah 1:43:41 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:43:41 You know, uh, the-

Trevor Noah 1:43:43 Planes are safe, yes, and they crash

Katie Couric 1:43:44 ... the regime in Iran was terrible.

Eugene 1:43:46 Mm.

Katie Couric 1:43:46 And, um, you know, was able to survive for too long. A brutal theocracy-

Trevor Noah 1:43:53 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:43:54 ... right, that was doing all kinds of terrible things-

Trevor Noah 1:43:57 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:43:57 ... to its people-

Trevor Noah 1:43:58 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:43:58 ... and to the region, and potentially to the world, right? You can say that.

Eugene 1:44:02 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:44:03 Was it right to do this now? And what were, what was the rationale?

Trevor Noah 1:44:08 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:44:09 Right? So I think that also people are afraid-

Trevor Noah 1:44:12 And the way, and the way it's been done, trust, you know what I mean?

Katie Couric 1:44:13 And I think this tribalism has made people really wary of dealing in the gray areas.

Eugene 1:44:21 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:44:22 And, and the complexities of situations.

Eugene 1:44:25 People are scared to be wrong.

Katie Couric 1:44:27 Yeah, scared to be wrong, and sc- yeah. I think you're right.

Trevor Noah 1:44:28 And scared to, yeah, scared to be wrong and messy, I think.

Eugene 1:44:30 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:44:30 Mes- messy's the big one.

Eugene 1:44:31 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:44:31 Is-

Eugene 1:44:32 Because I, I think being scared to be wrong foils debate from the onset. If you, if you run the risk of being wrong, you will never allow your opinion to be challenged, number one.

Trevor Noah 1:44:41 Hmm.

Eugene 1:44:41 But I think what this conversation has helped me realize is the importance of journalists. 'Cause I think a lot of people who consume short bites of media on social media do not understand that their favorite influencer that tells them the news got that news from-

Trevor Noah 1:44:55 From

Eugene 1:44:55 ... a journalist-

Trevor Noah 1:44:55 Yeah

Eugene 1:44:55 ... who verified the sources, who wrote the story, who broadcast the story, and someone takes it and runs with it. So we still need, and we should have a deep appreciation for hardworking journalists like, such as yourself and other people that you know in the industry.

Katie Couric 1:45:08 Well, yes, definitely. I'm so glad you said that because I'm, I'm working on a, a documentary or trying to develop a documentary about the evolution of the news business.

Eugene 1:45:17 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:45:17 Because, you know, I got into this business in 1979.

Eugene 1:45:21 Right.

Katie Couric 1:45:21 And how it's changed.

Trevor Noah 1:45:22 Back in the day, Katie.

Katie Couric 1:45:23 And, uh, the [laughs] yeah, and we should call it Back in the Day.

Trevor Noah 1:45:27 It is called Back in the Day.

Katie Couric 1:45:27 And, uh, and, and, and sort of what it means, and, and, and, and how important it is to have a common understanding of truth in a democracy.

Trevor Noah 1:45:38 Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing.

Katie Couric 1:45:39 Right? And we have lost that. You know, people call it truth decay.

Trevor Noah 1:45:43 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:45:43 And you know, what that means in terms of keeping a democracy strong.

Trevor Noah 1:45:52 Yeah. It's, it's one of the, it's part of an immune system is the way I think of it, right?

Eugene 1:45:58 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:45:58 The, a body's a messy thing. Its systems are strangely messy, but they all work i- in, in a direction. So like sometimes you feel bad, like you feel sick because your body is fighting to make you unsick. But you feel bad because of your own body. Does that make sense?

Katie Couric 1:46:14 Yes, your immune system, right?

Trevor Noah 1:46:16 Yes, but, but it's weird if you-

Katie Couric 1:46:17 Oh, wait, wait. No, a virus gets in there.

Trevor Noah 1:46:19 Yeah, but the immune system is the thing that we're experiencing actually, is like your body is making you feel bad.

Eugene 1:46:24 Oh, the reaction.

Trevor Noah 1:46:25 Yes, the reaction.

Eugene 1:46:26 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:46:26 Yes.

Eugene 1:46:26 We're experiencing the reaction, the effect.

Trevor Noah 1:46:27 That's what I mean.

Eugene 1:46:28 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:46:28 And that's what I mean by the messiness of it all, is like sometimes I think we take for granted that the correct way or the, the best way we've figured out for things to work is the messy way. Is like the journalism will reveal messy truths about your country, and your people, and outsiders, and insiders. And if you, if it's good journalism, it will force you to grapple with those truths.

Eugene 1:46:50 Right.

Katie Couric 1:46:50 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:46:50 You know, like, like you're saying.

Katie Couric 1:46:51 And to think.

Trevor Noah 1:46:52 And to think, yes.

Katie Couric 1:46:52 And I think, I think, I, unfortunately, I think all of us have gotten intellectually lazy.

Trevor Noah 1:46:56 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:46:57 Where we immediately-

Trevor Noah 1:46:58 Damn, I love that, intellectually lazy

Katie Couric 1:46:59 ... go to-

Trevor Noah 1:47:00 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:47:00 ... uh, you know, our side of the argument.

Trevor Noah 1:47:02 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Katie Couric 1:47:03 And it's not like, "Well, wait. What? You know, maybe this should have happened differently."

Trevor Noah 1:47:10 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:47:10 Or-

Trevor Noah 1:47:10 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:47:11 ... maybe that person has a point. You don't have to agree with them on everything.

Eugene 1:47:16 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:47:16 But our ability to kind of look at something critically and dialectically, I think, has been lost in this very binary black and white and, you know, world we live in. Uh, good, bad.

Trevor Noah 1:47:29 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:47:30 I mean, again, I find it gets complicated when you're talking about a president who does the things this president does.

Trevor Noah 1:47:40 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:47:41 You know?

Trevor Noah 1:47:41 Yeah, completely.

Katie Couric 1:47:42 Because I do think, you know, it's, it's been said it's not left, right, it's right, wrong, right?

Trevor Noah 1:47:48 Hmm. Hmm.

Katie Couric 1:47:48 And it is very difficult to kind of do those, um, you know, moral equivalencies when you feel like one side of the ledger is really wrong, if that makes sense.

Eugene 1:48:04 Yeah, absolutely.

Katie Couric 1:48:05 You know?

Eugene 1:48:05 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:48:05 Yeah. I, I think-

Katie Couric 1:48:06 So that to me is the, the real, the real challenge. You know, it's, it's not two different perspectives on policy, like how do you solve the homeless problem?

Trevor Noah 1:48:20 Yes, exactly.

Katie Couric 1:48:20 Right? It is a way of doing business that feels wrong and unjust.

Trevor Noah 1:48:30 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:48:31 You know?

Trevor Noah 1:48:31 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:48:31 Building of what $400 million ballroom that is going to eclipse the White House without going through the proper, um, you know, process of getting permission and, or loading the people-

Eugene 1:48:47 Oh, it's law for everyone except me.

Katie Couric 1:48:49 Right.

Eugene 1:48:50 You know?

Katie Couric 1:48:51 And so I think that's, that's where it's, it's become really difficult-

Eugene 1:48:58 Mm

Katie Couric 1:48:58 ... and challenging, I think, for a journalist.

Trevor Noah 1:49:03 Well, thankfully difficult and challenging is sort of what you've specialized in. I think it's what many, to what Eugene's saying, great journalists have specialized in.

Katie Couric 1:49:13 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:49:13 Difficult and challenging was You know, covering a Gulf War difficult and challenging was, you know, f- tracking a drug smuggling ring difficult and challenging is finding a source, informing people, trying to make it palatable or even, um, digestible for a public.

Eugene 1:49:30 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:49:30 Um, genuinely, I, all I can say is I think myself and many other people, we're grateful to people like you because we don't realize how much-

Eugene 1:49:39 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:49:39 ... of our knowledge is based on, as Eugene said, the work of other people. And then what we do is we turn around and we go, "I don't, I don't need that. I don't, I don't need the news, and I don't read the news because, you know, I actually heard this thing the other day about how..."

Eugene 1:49:53 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:49:53 And I'm like, "Yeah, where do you, where do you think you heard it from? Where do you think that person heard it from?"

Eugene 1:49:58 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:49:59 W- people just make it like it comes out of thin air. I actually saw a thing that said, uh, it's like, yeah, the same journalists that you will vilify, the same ones-

Eugene 1:50:07 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:50:08 ... are the ones who put out the news about how something that was reported a while ago has now changed.

Eugene 1:50:14 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:50:14 It's the same place. Like, I, I've always found it funny that people will go, "The New York Times said this." The New York Times put out a story now saying that something they reported on 10, 15 years ago was, like, wrong. Not a correction, but they're saying like, "Hey, actually, we've just discovered this." And then people will go, "See, The New York Times put out this thing where they, they, uh, uh, they found out that, uh, this many years ago they, they were wrong." I'm like, "Yeah, but where did you hear this? From The New York Times." So you should be grateful that the thing exists-

Eugene 1:50:40 Yeah, still exists

Trevor Noah 1:50:41 ... in its imperfect state-

Eugene 1:50:43 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:50:43 ... because it is still providing a service.

Eugene 1:50:46 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:50:46 But I also think people have to take the responsibility of being informed seriously. Um-

Trevor Noah 1:50:52 Ah, we wanna be lazy, Katie. Why are you doing this to us?

Katie Couric 1:50:54 And if they, you know-

Trevor Noah 1:50:54 We just wanna sit on the couch

Katie Couric 1:50:55 ... like, some, we were, I was talking to some people in Virginia about the redistricting vote.

Trevor Noah 1:51:01 Yes, yeah.

Katie Couric 1:51:01 And, uh, one of the people were say- somebody I was talking to said, you know, people felt like it was morally wrong. Gerrymandering is wrong. But I said, "Did they understand that this started in Texas by, uh, you know, a mid- mid-census year request by the President of the United States to redistrict in Texas so there would be more Republican seats?"

Trevor Noah 1:51:28 Hmm.

Katie Couric 1:51:29 Do they understand that was the genesis of all this? And then it happened in California, and then North Carolina-

Trevor Noah 1:51:35 Yeah, yeah

Katie Couric 1:51:35 ... and then Missouri, and now Virginia. And if people don't pay attention and don't understand, they, it's, they have to be informed. And they needed to understand, well, Virginia is doing this because it started in Texas. And if the Democrats hadn't responded in California and Virginia, then the chances, then it would be very lopsided for the midterm elections.

Trevor Noah 1:52:02 Yeah, it, it becomes an unending, yeah.

Katie Couric 1:52:02 But, but it's sort of like, and did you know that in 2018 the Democrats proposed legislation, I think it was 2018, to end gerrymandering, period.

Trevor Noah 1:52:11 Yeah, full stop.

Katie Couric 1:52:12 And no Republicans voted for it. So I just, I think people just need to, to have the background and educate themselves before they have an opinion. [laughs]

Eugene 1:52:25 I, I think the, the assault on journalism is probably more on the journalism profession itself because it's not made as sexy and as essential. You know, people talk about policemen-

Katie Couric 1:52:36 Well, that's because everyone thinks they are one

Eugene 1:52:37 ... teach- yes, exactly. So I think maybe the battlefield where else we would see a journalist reporting in the battlefield, I think the new battlefield is exactly where the plagiarism is happening and the misinformation is happening on social media. I think now the journalist needs to hold that phone in front of their face as they held a microphone during the Gulf War-

Trevor Noah 1:52:56 Oh, interesting

Eugene 1:52:56 ... and say, "In this battlefield, this is the truth, and this is not the truth." 'Cause right now I think we've just left it all up to people who have nice phones and nice lighting and too much time on their hands to tell the stories. I think the journalists need to go. And so that's why I'm happy when I see-

Trevor Noah 1:53:11 Actually, is it-

Eugene 1:53:11 ... big publications with social media accounts.

Trevor Noah 1:53:13 Yeah. Walter, I was actually about to ask-

Eugene 1:53:14 No, go there

Trevor Noah 1:53:14 ... is there a reason that you decided to go-

Eugene 1:53:16 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:53:16 ... because you, you have gone to, exactly to what Eugene said, you've done that.

Eugene 1:53:20 New battlefield, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:53:20 You've gone to where the people are.

Katie Couric 1:53:22 Well, that's, I mean, it was pretty obvious. It didn't take a brain surgeon to see where the puck was going.

Eugene 1:53:27 Excuse me, Katie.

Trevor Noah 1:53:28 [laughs]

Katie Couric 1:53:29 No, not you. It didn't take a brain surgeon, though, uh, it, people in my profession-

Eugene 1:53:34 Yes

Katie Couric 1:53:34 ... to see that that linear television news was declining.

Eugene 1:53:38 Right.

Katie Couric 1:53:39 That people were getting, increasingly getting their news and information online.

Trevor Noah 1:53:44 Mm.

Katie Couric 1:53:44 And that you had to then, and, and people, I think, in legacy media organizations were kind of caught flat-footed.

Trevor Noah 1:53:51 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Katie Couric 1:53:51 Because they had, uh, a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. You know, they talk about analog dollars and digital pennies.

Trevor Noah 1:53:59 Mm-hmm.

Eugene 1:54:00 Wow.

Katie Couric 1:54:00 And, you know, this is where they were making the money. They didn't wanna cannibalize their product.

Trevor Noah 1:54:04 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:54:05 But as, you know, their, their viewers got older and older and everyone, uh, else was, was looking at their phones for information.

Trevor Noah 1:54:14 Mm.

Katie Couric 1:54:14 Now they're finally catching up, and you're seeing, you know, network and, uh, local even reporters, even though so many local newspapers, like 2,500 do- 2,500 have closed since, I think, 2004. But you're seeing them adapt to these new platforms where people are getting their information. And by the way, I listen on Instagram to somebody from The New York Times, even if it's a, it's a reporter, an opinion person.

Trevor Noah 1:54:44 Yeah.

Eugene 1:54:44 Mm-hmm, yeah.

Katie Couric 1:54:44 I listen to somebody from ABC News online. I, I still pay attention and consider the source-

Trevor Noah 1:54:51 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:54:52 ... of the information, and that's what I mean about media literacy. You know, people need to understand there are certain standards from s- d- different news outlets and organizations that are adhered to, you know, where information is vetted and sourced and edited and, you know, verified.

Trevor Noah 1:55:09 There's accountability.

Katie Couric 1:55:10 Yeah. And I think that it's been very hard with this flood of people just kind of giving information.

Trevor Noah 1:55:16 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:55:16 Influencers.

Trevor Noah 1:55:17 Mm-hmm.

Katie Couric 1:55:17 It's like, I'm sorry, where did you get that information?

Trevor Noah 1:55:21 [laughs]

Katie Couric 1:55:21 Why are you saying this? Where did this come from?

Trevor Noah 1:55:24 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:55:24 But people can't, it's hard to discern-

Trevor Noah 1:55:27 Discern

Katie Couric 1:55:27 ... who is legitimate-

Trevor Noah 1:55:28 It is very hard

Katie Couric 1:55:28 ... and who is not-

Trevor Noah 1:55:29 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:55:29 ... when there's this sea of people all kind of talking to you on your phone.

Trevor Noah 1:55:33 Yeah. No? Well, I mean, like I say, it's, it's one ... It's literally, it's one step at a time. It's one challenge at a time. I love how much vigor you have for it, by the way, 'cause, like, a lot of people would be like, "I've done my time. I'm done." But you still have, like, the-

Katie Couric 1:55:47 I love it

Trevor Noah 1:55:48 ... that's what I mean.

Katie Couric 1:55:49 I love-

Trevor Noah 1:55:49 I can see that

Katie Couric 1:55:49 ... you know why? It's selfish because I love learning about the world. I love understanding. So when I'm talking to somebody about a subject, if I'm talking to a former military person about the challenges of the war in Iran and drone ware- warfare-

Trevor Noah 1:56:07 Right, right

Katie Couric 1:56:08 ... and what's changed, like, I wanna, I wanna learn that, you know? So I feel like selfishly I'm learning something every day, and if I then can help by my ignorance [laughs] or my desire to, to become more knowledgeable can then help someone else be like, "Oh, wow, I didn't know that. That's interesting," or whatever, I feel like I'm, I, I'm serving myself and hopefully other people at the same time, if that makes sense.

Trevor Noah 1:56:39 That makes complete sense.

Katie Couric 1:56:40 You know?

Eugene 1:56:40 That's when you know you've, you've reached your, your ultimate purpose-

Katie Couric 1:56:43 I mean, I'm-

Eugene 1:56:43 ... when it serves you first.

Katie Couric 1:56:44 Don't you-

Trevor Noah 1:56:45 Yes.

Eugene 1:56:45 Perfect

Katie Couric 1:56:45 ... I, I, i- in the same speech last night, I said I became a journalist because I love to write and I'm very nosy.

Eugene 1:56:51 [laughs]

Katie Couric 1:56:51 And I am sort of insatiably curious, and I, I ... It's hard, 'cause I feel frustrated. I think about, God, all the stuff I don't know and understand.

Trevor Noah 1:57:00 Sure.

Katie Couric 1:57:00 But if I can carve out l- a little bit every day and learn something new or understand something more deeply, that's, that's so great, right?

Eugene 1:57:11 It's the greatest gift.

Katie Couric 1:57:12 Isn't it? I mean-

Eugene 1:57:14 It is

Katie Couric 1:57:14 ... and I think people, people need to, to be open to new information and knowledge. And it's just ... A- a- and then when you have an o- a, an opinion about something, you know, and I, like some of the stuff that we've talked about, I don't know, right? And I, and I have to go and study something before I have an opinion-

Trevor Noah 1:57:36 Yeah

Katie Couric 1:57:36 ... and talk to legitimate experts, and really learn about something-

Trevor Noah 1:57:40 You would never work as a podcaster, Katie.

Katie Couric 1:57:41 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:57:42 You can't, you can't go study the things. We just need opinions now, Katie.

Katie Couric 1:57:45 But do you know what I mean? Like-

Trevor Noah 1:57:46 No research required, Katie.

Eugene 1:57:48 [laughs] Verbal clickbait.

Trevor Noah 1:57:49 This is, this is podcasting, Katie.

Eugene 1:57:50 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:57:50 Someone asks you a question, you go, "This is the answer."

Eugene 1:57:54 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:57:54 This is podcasting, Katie. Trying to be informed. Yeah, what are you trying to do, take Eugene's job?

Eugene 1:58:00 [laughs]

Katie Couric 1:58:01 [laughs] But, right? I mean, I don't wanna give an opinion, like when, when you were asking me about national security versus the public's right to know.

Trevor Noah 1:58:10 I saw you do that. Yeah, I saw.

Katie Couric 1:58:11 Well, I would like to go back and really identify incidents-

Trevor Noah 1:58:16 Hm

Katie Couric 1:58:16 ... where that happened or didn't happen so I could talk more intelligently about it.

Trevor Noah 1:58:22 Can I tell you, that is probably one of the greatest learnings we've had on this show over time, is that the people who oftentimes have the most expertise and the people who are oftentimes the most well-versed in any particular discipline also operate with higher levels of doubt-

Katie Couric 1:58:44 Hm

Trevor Noah 1:58:44 ... than everyone else. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a powerful and beautiful humility to see doctors, scientists, journalists, but I mean at the top of their game, going, "I don't know. I need to-"

Eugene 1:58:57 Yeah, let me find out.

Trevor Noah 1:58:57 "... let me be sure about that. Let me ... I actually don't know on..." And you, you go like, wow, oh, this, this is, in a strange way it's like going, an expert is somebody who knows so much that they know how little they know.

Eugene 1:59:10 Yeah.

Katie Couric 1:59:10 Right. Okay.

Trevor Noah 1:59:11 Do you know what I mean?

Katie Couric 1:59:11 That, that, yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:59:12 They, they truly, like, they go, "Yeah, I, I don't..." And then the rest of us are genuinely like, "Oh, I'm an expert in this." It's like, "Well, well, what do, what do you know?" "Uh, I mean, I've watched a few videos. I've seen a few things." I know. But that, that thing there is a gift that I hope you don't ever take for granted.

Eugene 1:59:26 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:59:26 That doubt. 'Cause in your position, I'm not gonna lie, if I was in your position, I would be like, "Yo, let me ... I'll tell you everything about the news. I know everything about everything. You can't tell me nothing." But for Katie Couric to go, "I don't know. Let me go and read up on this. Let me go and..." Even for me, just in that moment it inspired me to be like, oh, yeah, don't forget that you can always go back and read. You can always go back and learn, and you can always admit that you just don't know.

Katie Couric 1:59:50 I mean, I think that I've been doing this long enough and I'm old enough to have the confidence. You know, I'm sure there was a time where I would've just, like, been blah, blah, blah.

Trevor Noah 1:59:59 [laughs]

Katie Couric 1:59:59 You know? Um, and even now I think, oh, gosh, am I gonna sound dumb or uninformed or un-

Trevor Noah 2:00:05 Even now

Katie Couric 2:00:06 ... un- uneducated about a certain thing. Like, what would David Sanger, the national security correspondent for The New York Times, say about this? What examples would he give? But I'd rather admit that I don't know than to say something that's wrong.

Eugene 2:00:21 All great debates are fueled by the risk of being wrong. That's what I think.

Trevor Noah 2:00:25 You're a real one, Katie.

Eugene 2:00:26 You've just proved it, Katie.

Katie Couric 2:00:27 I don't know.

Trevor Noah 2:00:28 No, you have.

Eugene 2:00:29 You have.

Trevor Noah 2:00:29 You, you're a real one. Thank you for joining us.

Katie Couric 2:00:30 No, this was really fun.

Trevor Noah 2:00:32 This was amazing.

Katie Couric 2:00:32 And Eugene, so nice to meet you.

Eugene 2:00:34 [laughs] Nice to meet you.

Katie Couric 2:00:35 Really enjoyed talking to you in your new turquoise Zara jacket.

Eugene 2:00:38 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 2:00:39 [laughs]

Katie Couric 2:00:40 Um, and this was very interesting. You know-

Trevor Noah 2:00:42 Yeah

Katie Couric 2:00:42 ... um, you guys raised a lot of issues, asked a lot of questions, uh, proposed a lot of interesting ideas. Um-

Trevor Noah 2:00:51 Interesting

Katie Couric 2:00:52 ... uh, challenged sort of the status quo and the way things are done, and made me think a lot. So thank you. This was fun.

Trevor Noah 2:00:59 Thank you, Katie Couric.

Eugene 2:01:00 Thank you.

Trevor Noah 2:01:00 This was genuinely a joy. Thank you so much.

Eugene 2:01:02 Yeah, thank you.

Katie Couric 2:01:02 Thank you. [upbeat music]

Trevor Noah 2:01:04 Thank you so much for watching the episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friend still. Let them suffer for a change. And don't forget to engage with us in the comments. Uh, if you wanna, uh, suggest a guest, maybe there's questions you want, maybe there's ideas that you have, you can chat to us. We will read through the comments and we'll get into it. Either way, I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you for hanging out with us on What Now? And remember, we do this for you, so we would like to hear from you. Till next time, thank you. [upbeat music]