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What Now? With Trevor NoahWhat Now? With Trevor Noah

Malala Yousafzai: The Real Malala - Jeans, Crushes, & Healing

Malala like you’ve never seen her -- In this deeply personal conversation, Malala Yousafzai opens up about rediscovering herself beyond the headlines by learning to laugh again, making friends at Oxford, falling in love, and learning to heal through therapy. A candid, moving portrait of the woman behind the icon. If you haven't already.... Subscribe to the channel here: http://bit.ly/SubscribeTrevorNoah Or follow the podcast on your other favorite platforms... SiriusXM - Apple Podcasts - https://bit.ly/WhatNowOnApplePodcasts Spotify - https://bit.ly/WhatNowOnSpotify 00:00 – Who is Malala, really? 00:55 – Starting “What Now” with Trevor Noah 02:10 – How Malala handles constant travel 03:43 – The Daily Show years that nearly broke Trevor 05:17 – Why Malala waited in the greenroom so long 06:00 – Can you ever escape the story people tell about you? 06:30 – What waking up after being shot really felt like 08:31 – How Malala rebuilt her life from zero 09:22 – When activism takes away your ability to just be 10:13 – Why humour became Malala’s secret weapon 12:56 – How laughter helped her heal 13:38 – What freedom looked like at Oxford 16:19 – Why going home changed everything 20:05 – Are Pakistani mangoes the best in the world? 23:45 – Growing up under the Taliban: how kids adapted 26:19 – Why girls don’t need saving—they need listening 28:28 – Forget Superman—who really changes the world? 30:30 – Why no one actually wants to be a refugee 33:33 – The jeans photo that broke the internet 40:34 – The argument that changed her father’s mind 43:45 – How Malala became everyone’s relationship coach 50:48 – What her first panic attack taught her about trauma 56:00 – How therapy finally helped her breathe again 1:12:54 – Why speaking her mind still gets her in trouble 1:16:18 – How Malala fell in love (and redefined marriage) 1:23:09 – The “bad boy” college crush she had to outgrow 1:28:08 – What love looks like when you stop being a symbol 1:31:59 – From rinsing glasses to fighting patriarchy 1:46:06 – Where Malala finds home now 1:48:28 – Trevor’s final thought

Malala YousafzaiguestTrevor Noahhost
Oct 16, 20251h 49mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:55

    Who is Malala, really?

    1. SP

      Malala defied a ban prohibiting girls from attending school, posting an anonymous blog about the restrictive life for women and children in Pakistan.

    2. SP

      It made her a target. Taliban militants shot her in the head on her school bus.

    3. SP

      She was flown to the UK for medical treatment and has lived there ever since.

    4. SP

      She has since become the youngest-ever Nobel Peace Prize winner and a fierce advocate for the rights of girls and women around the world.

    5. MY

      I had a, a historic moment here when I spoke at the UN. One child, one teacher, one book, and one pen can change the world.

    6. SP

      Malala Yousafzai taking to Instagram to celebrate completing her degree in philosophy, politics, and economics at Oxford. Malala Yousafzai is working on a new memoir. It will be her most personal book yet. [upbeat music]

  2. 0:55 – 2:10

    Starting “What Now” with Trevor Noah

    1. TN

      This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. [upbeat music] Where are you flying from? How are you?

    2. MY

      London. I'm good.

    3. TN

      Like now?

    4. MY

      Yeah. [laughs]

    5. TN

      Oh, but you get time back. I like that.

    6. MY

      Yeah.

    7. TN

      I don't know if you do.

    8. MY

      No, I, I like when I have extra hours.

    9. TN

      Yeah, I feel like I'm time traveling.

    10. MY

      I am, I am not, uh, a mor- like I, I like just more, more hours to live. I like the days to be longer. [laughs]

    11. TN

      [laughs] I mean, that's one way to think of it.

    12. MY

      Yes.

    13. TN

      I always just, I just feel like I've cheated in a, like a-

    14. MY

      No, it feels really good. [laughs]

    15. TN

      Yeah, yeah. I feel like I've cheated the system.

    16. MY

      Yes, I'm like, "It was such a productive day. How did I manage so many things?"

    17. TN

      [laughs] Yes.

    18. MY

      It's like you had, like seven extra hours.

    19. TN

      Yeah.

    20. MY

      [laughs]

    21. TN

      Yeah, it's exactly that feeling. Okay. So London, and then how long are you here for?

    22. MY

      A week.

    23. TN

      Okay.

    24. MY

      Yeah. And then-

    25. TN

      And then from here back to London.

    26. MY

      Yes, but then I go to Egypt to visit some of the projects we are supporting-

    27. TN

      Yeah

    28. MY

      ... for the Gaza refugees, uh, Palestinian refugees. And then we go to Nigeria for our board meeting, and then I come back to London, do more press. Then I go to LA, do more press.

    29. TN

      Wow.

    30. MY

      New York, more

  3. 2:10 – 3:43

    How Malala handles constant travel

    1. MY

      press. And then the book is finally out, and then I start the tour. [laughs]

    2. TN

      Then you start the book tour.

    3. MY

      Yeah.

    4. TN

      I think you'll, you'll enjoy the book t- you, I mean-

    5. MY

      Yes

    6. TN

      ... you, you've done them before.

    7. MY

      Uh, not like a big tour, no.

    8. TN

      No?

    9. MY

      This is my first proper book tour.

    10. TN

      Oh. Did you en-

    11. MY

      I had done one other

    12. TN

      ... did you enjoy the last one that you did?

    13. MY

      The last one, I was still in school.

    14. TN

      So you couldn't really, like ...

    15. MY

      So I did two events.

    16. TN

      Oh, no, that's not-

    17. MY

      Big events

    18. TN

      ... that's not a tour then

    19. MY

      ... and then, no, that's not a tour.

    20. TN

      That's definitely not a tour. You know what I like about the book tour the most is, uh, look, I don't know, I don't know how you'll feel about, but I, I feel like that's where you, you reap the reward, actually, for the first time of the book.

    21. MY

      Yeah. I'm excited. I mean, I haven't experienced it yet. [laughs]

    22. TN

      Like most of, 'cause I've-

    23. MY

      Yeah

    24. TN

      ... uh, f- my experience was you write the book, you write the book, you write the book, and then for me at least, it was, "What am I doing? This is taking forever. This is so hard."

    25. MY

      Yeah.

    26. TN

      Then the editor comes back with notes, and then you gotta do more writing. Then you're counting w- then you're not, then you're like, what do you leave out? What do you put in? What, it's just this process, process, pro- finally, it's done, and then it's like, what cover do you want? What ... You know what I mean, the process, process, process, process. And then it's only when you're on tour for the first time with the book that you see people, like interact with it.

    27. MY

      Yes.

    28. TN

      Yeah.

    29. MY

      Yeah, and then there's this time before the release when you're doing press.

    30. TN

      About the book.

  4. 3:43 – 5:17

    The Daily Show years that nearly broke Trevor

    1. MY

      ... you were very late.

    2. TN

      Was I?

    3. MY

      I, yes, I was waiting [laughs] in the studio.

    4. TN

      Sounds like me. Sounds like me.

    5. MY

      I, I waited for a very long time. [laughs]

    6. TN

      Oh, yeah, yeah. No, so y- I wonder what year you came in. So when, you know-

    7. MY

      2019, beginning, maybe

    8. TN

      ... can I tell you, that was like, those were like some of the hardest years of my life, and one of the things that always would get me at The Daily Show was you're trying to make a show.

    9. MY

      Yeah.

    10. TN

      And you're trying to do it about the news, and then there were the years when, I mean, now we're back in the years, but it was the years when Donald Trump is now in power.

    11. MY

      Mm-hmm.

    12. TN

      Right? So the way The Daily Show used to work with Jon Stewart was they would watch the news the night before.

    13. MY

      Yes.

    14. TN

      And then the day of, they would make the show, and then you would put it out.

    15. MY

      Yes.

    16. TN

      And then when I became the host, when Trump came into power, the news of the night before meant nothing. Absolutely nothing.

    17. MY

      [laughs]

    18. TN

      And so sometimes it would be 2:00 PM after rehearsal, we're literally done, and then people would come in and go, "Everything you wrote is trash. Everything's wrong. They've changed this. This is not hap- there's a new thing."

    19. MY

      Yeah.

    20. TN

      "Uh, Trump spoke on the White House lawn. There's a new law they put," and then we'd have to rewrite the show completely. And so oftentimes it meant whoever was sitting in the back waiting for us ... Were you watching it on, like the screen? Like I'm trying to think of where you were.

    21. MY

      In the waiting room.

    22. TN

      Oh, yeah, in the wa- in the, in the wa-

    23. MY

      Yes.

    24. TN

      But we had snacks.

    25. MY

      You had snacks. That is true.

    26. TN

      I had, like delicious snacks.

    27. MY

      Delicious snacks.

    28. TN

      I tried to make sure there were as many delicious snacks as possible.

    29. MY

      Yes. Yes. It was a very nice, cozy space.

    30. TN

      [laughs]

  5. 5:17 – 6:00

    Why Malala waited in the greenroom so long

    1. MY

      me.

    2. TN

      I mean, you are Malala. Where-

    3. MY

      Thank you so much.

    4. TN

      This is where, uh, you should be, in the streets waiting to receive the people.

    5. MY

      Exactly.

    6. TN

      There's also not as much money doing a podcast versus The Daily Show.

    7. MY

      [laughs] Okay.

    8. TN

      Yeah, and with The Daily Show, there's someone to do that. I just have to do it myself. Yeah.

    9. MY

      Understandable.

    10. TN

      No, no. I, I, no, I like it. You know what it is? It's like, it's ... You know what? It's actually a perfect segue into, like what you said in the book. We very seldom get to think about the identities that we've adopted for, you know? Or, or-

    11. MY

      Yes

    12. TN

      ... the, the identities we've inherited because of things that have happened to us. And so mine, in a very different way to yours, people have an idea of me as a person, so they go, "You are like this." Some people think I'm, uh, v- very funny. Some people think I'm, like, o- only

  6. 6:00 – 6:30

    Can you ever escape the story people tell about you?

    1. TN

      funny even. Some people think I'm very serious. Some people think I'm only political. Uh, some people think I'm stupid. Uh, some people think I'm whatever. But I'm all those things. Do, do you know what I mean? And so in many ways, y- like the beginning of your book touched me, and I think it'll touch so many people because It starts in a place that personalizes your story i- in a way that honestly I didn't expect, and it's you lying in a hospital bed, people operating on you

  7. 6:30 – 8:31

    What waking up after being shot really felt like

    1. TN

      because of a gunshot wound, and in that moment you've already inherited a story, and there's a journey that's been, that's been put forth for you. And so I, I wondered that. Like, when I was reading that I was going, "Oh, how am I like when I meet Malala? Am I- do I defer too much? Should I treat her more normally?" Then I'm like, "Ah, but I'm not gonna roast Malala." Is that, but do you roast people?

    2. MY

      [laughs]

    3. TN

      How do you ... Do you find that people are, like, are weird around you, for lack of a better term?

    4. MY

      When people meet me, what shocks them most is that I'm funny. You know, for me, being funny, humor has been a process of healing, and I do not want to talk about [laughs] the, the difficult parts. And it's not that I feel uncomfortable talking about them. I easily can explain it to people what happened, and for me it's just a series of events that I'm telling.

    5. TN

      Yeah.

    6. MY

      I think it's a blessing for me that I do not remember the incident.

    7. TN

      Huh.

    8. MY

      But I do remember when I woke up and how I felt. I was grateful that I was alive, but I was in a hospital in Birmingham in the UK, not in my country anymore, and my parents were not there with me for 10 days. They joined after that.

    9. TN

      Right.

    10. MY

      So I had to figure out what was happening. Who are these strangers speaking in English? I had never traveled outside Pakistan, and I had to just process the fact that, yes, something horrible had happened, but I did not know what exactly. And, um, yeah, so, you know, this is a story I, I, I tell people. I can tell people about how long it took me to recover. I had to learn to, like, walk and talk again.

    11. TN

      Yeah.

    12. MY

      And, and, you know, and this was truly me. Like, for me, I thought this is, this is another life. I am reborn, and I felt it. Like, I couldn't even speak in the beginning. I couldn't even walk in the beginning.

    13. TN

      Wow.

    14. MY

      I felt like I was learning to crawl and to, to get up. So at that time my focus quickly shifted to the attention

  8. 8:31 – 9:22

    How Malala rebuilt her life from zero

    1. MY

      that I was now receiving globally-

    2. TN

      Yeah

    3. MY

      ... because of what had happened, and I was getting all of these requests like, "We want to write a book about your life. We want to make a documentary."

    4. TN

      Yeah.

    5. MY

      "You have to give your first speech at the UN." And that's the turn my life took, that in all of that I just forgot who I was actually meant to be before any of this had happened. Who was the Malala, the funny one who had a lot of friends, who was back in Pakistan. She was studious, but she was cheeky. All of that was gone, and I somehow just thought that, yes, I have lost a lot of things including joy, including the laughter, and I never thought I could, like, make a best friend or, you know, find love and, and just be like a normal person. [laughs] I thought life was now all about activism, so much that I thought it m- it meant sacrificing everything

  9. 9:22 – 10:13

    When activism takes away your ability to just be

    1. MY

      else.

    2. TN

      You know, there's something I think of when, when you say that. It reminds me of, um, South African activists.

    3. MY

      Hmm.

    4. TN

      You know, the people who fought for apartheid to end. And I often think about many of the stories that people would tell about the inner, like, the inner circles.

    5. MY

      Yes.

    6. TN

      You know, the Nelson Mandelas, the Walter Sisulus, the, like, whoever they were. And one of the big things that struck me was I thought to myself, activism, in my opinion, is trying to fight for something so that we can be.

    7. MY

      Yeah.

    8. TN

      You know? And if you're, if you're stuck in the activism, there's no being.

    9. MY

      No.

    10. TN

      You know? Now it's like, "This is w- this is all. I'm a fighter. I'm fighting, I'm fighting," and we forget the being. And when, when, when you said that I was like, oh yeah, like, Malala being mischievous is something that no one ever thinks of. Mala- I remember the first time you roasted me, actually.

    11. MY

      [laughs]

    12. TN

      I didn't know what was happening.

  10. 10:13 – 12:56

    Why humour became Malala’s secret weapon

    1. MY

      I don't remember either. [laughs]

    2. TN

      No, no, no. I remember the first time you roasted me. I-

    3. MY

      Yes

    4. TN

      ... I, I rem- my, my brain short-circuited. I, I, I made what I call the Mandela mistake.

    5. MY

      Yes.

    6. TN

      So, um, Nelson Mandela had been President of South Africa. Obviously, 1994 he becomes president, right?

    7. MY

      Yeah.

    8. TN

      And I think this was after his presidency. He got honored with a c- with, um, a coin that had his face on it.

    9. MY

      Yes.

    10. TN

      And this was, like, the first time. Imagine, first Black president, first democratically elected president, but now they're also putting his face on money.

    11. MY

      Yes.

    12. TN

      And there was a press conference that was being held, and we got invited to this event, and I distinctly remember a journalist, I think they were from the UK, and they asked him a very serious question. Very, like, v- and I mean, he's like, you know, he's Nelson Mandela.

    13. MY

      Yes.

    14. TN

      You know? Very funny guy, though, privately, people who knew him, and even publicly sometimes. But the, the journalist said, "Mr. Mandela, how does it feel to live in a country where you were once considered a terrorist-

    15. MY

      Mm-hmm

    16. TN

      ... and a person who was persona non grata, and now your face is on that same country's currency? How does it feel?" And he paused, and he goes, he's like, "That's how you know you've made it, when you have your own money."

    17. MY

      [laughs]

    18. TN

      And he's like, "No more socializing with poor people."

    19. MY

      [laughs]

    20. TN

      And I laughed.

    21. MY

      Yeah.

    22. TN

      And people turned to look 'cause I got the joke. Maybe it's the South Afri-

    23. MY

      Yes

    24. TN

      ... I, like, the rhythm I got. And people looked at me like, "Shh. Hey." And everyone in the room was just like, "Mm. Mm."

    25. MY

      [laughs]

    26. TN

      "Yes, so, so b-" I was like, "That's not an 'mm.'"

    27. MY

      It's a joke. [laughs]

    28. TN

      "The man made a joke. He's saying that he's made it now-

    29. MY

      Yeah

    30. TN

      ... so he doesn't have to hang out with the poors."

  11. 12:56 – 13:38

    How laughter helped her heal

    1. MY

      together.

    2. TN

      I really, I like that for you as well because it's, it's human. And the book is very human. Like, the story you're telling is, dare I say, is like Malala being messy.

    3. MY

      Yeah, a bit. [laughs]

    4. TN

      [laughs] My words, not yours. My words, not yours. But, like, uh, you know, you know, I was, I was looking through some of the, the, the parts that really stuck with me, and, and I was like, it's, it's amazing how this book feels to me like you, you're on this journey of reclaiming something that we as society never thought that we took from you, which was the fullness of who you are as a person. Not being one, not being the other. But it's like people made you hyper-visible, but then also-

    5. MY

      Yeah

    6. TN

      ... invisible at the same time.

  12. 13:38 – 16:19

    What freedom looked like at Oxford

    1. MY

      I think that's a very good description of it. But I don't think it's fully society. I think you internalize it so much that-

    2. TN

      Oh

    3. MY

      ... you think that's who you are supposed to be. I feel that's what happened to me. A lot of friends [laughs] used to, like, joke that I was, um, more like Mother Teresa or a Dalai Lama, that I was supposed to live a life like that. So when I got this opportunity to be in college, and it's like a normal thing, right? Just going to university-

    4. TN

      Yeah

    5. MY

      ... going to college.

    6. TN

      Yeah.

    7. MY

      But for me, it was a big deal because firstly, I was now not under the surveillance of my parents. You know, it's, it's a South Asian family.

    8. TN

      Yeah, I think that's a-

    9. MY

      And, and I could not even, like, go to a friend's gathering there because they were just too worried about my safety and just too scared about something happening.

    10. TN

      Mm.

    11. MY

      And I could not figure out what that something was gonna be. But I was supposed to be at home, and then at, you know, spend the rest of my day at school, and then be at these events, doing conferences and, uh, speeches and interviews. That was how my whole life was, being an activist and then this quiet student in a, in a classroom.

    12. TN

      Right.

    13. MY

      That when I was in university, I said, "Okay, the parents are not watching. Um, nobody's judging you 'cause nobody technically really knows you. And, uh, make as many friends as possible." And I was so glad that I changed myself a bit. At school, I was a very quiet person.

    14. TN

      Yeah.

    15. MY

      I had become a quiet person in the UK because I was like, you know-

    16. TN

      It's school

    17. MY

      ... I don't know how to fit in.

    18. TN

      Yeah.

    19. MY

      It's, I'm, I'm a latecomer. I did not make friends on time, and I just only had one best friend. So in college, I had one goal, to make as many friends as possible. I was saying hello to everybody. It sometimes felt awkward, but I said, "Don't worry about it." Um, and, and it changed everything for me because I made so many friends-

    20. TN

      Yeah

    21. MY

      ... who are now friends with me for life. They have changed my life completely. I found safety and comfort-

    22. TN

      Hmm

    23. MY

      ... among them.

    24. TN

      It, it also makes me feel like you, you claimed something that you had lost that people didn't necessarily realize. And I, I noticed that, you know, when you're telling your story, I found it beautiful that you went backwards in time to reclaim beauty that I think most people wouldn't have assumed existed in your life.

    25. MY

      Yeah.

    26. TN

      You know? Like, when I think of the story of Malala as it was told in the world, it seemed very much like, oh, she's been rescued. She's been rescued from everything. Thank goodness, Malala, now you get to live in the West. What a beautiful

  13. 16:19 – 20:05

    Why going home changed everything

    1. TN

      life. Now you have friends. Now you have a future. Now you have hope. You have dreams. You have beauty. And yet in, in the book, you go backwards, and you painted pictures that made me go like, "I need to go to Pakistan."

    2. MY

      Yeah. [laughs]

    3. TN

      "I need to go see these valleys. I need to eat these fruits."

    4. MY

      Yeah.

    5. TN

      "I need to travel through these places." Like, what do you think, or why do you think that was so important for you to do, to, to, like, paint those images as vividly as you did as the beginning, as opposed to the beginning that we know?

    6. MY

      So when I joined university, I still had not been back to Pakistan. Those memories from my home stayed with me, and that's how I felt a connection to home.

    7. TN

      Yeah.

    8. MY

      Because I felt like there was, there was this big disconnection. I could not really connect with that old life, and it was purely these memories, like thinking about my friends, sometimes talking to my old school best friend, Muniba, and sometimes just opening Google Maps and zooming in on, on the street and looking at the rivers and the mountains and thinking about the time I had spent there as a child with friends, giggling, laughing. And sometimes I would question myself if that was all real.

    9. TN

      Wow.

    10. MY

      And why have I ended up in a, in a place, and why can't I go back? So, um, it was, um, around springtime in my first year of university when we were on our Easter break-

    11. TN

      Mm-hmm

    12. MY

      ... that I told my dad, "We have to go back to Pakistan. I have to go see my friends, see my hometown, see my relatives because I am not feeling okay. I feel incomplete. I think it's, it's affecting me." Um, I'm ... And it's, you know, when you feel like this is the last chance that you could see your home or your loved ones.

    13. TN

      Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine.

    14. MY

      And it just felt that, um, I may not get another chance. It always kept getting delayed, and I said, "There will always be an excuse. There's always, like, something happening in the country."

    15. TN

      Yeah.

    16. MY

      The country's beautiful, but there's always something happening-

    17. TN

      Yeah, yeah

    18. MY

      ... with politics. So I said, you know, "It will somehow, like, never be the right time, but We, we have to go regardless. And we went there, and that was such a fulfilling journey.

    19. TN

      It's beautiful.

    20. MY

      We met our friends and family.

    21. TN

      Yeah.

    22. MY

      Uh, and it was, it was strange. It was, it was, like, comforting. It was all of these feelings were there, and, and I, and I'm so glad that we did it. Uh, I met my school best friend, and, like, you know, I- and I could just see how the friends connected with me, uh, the most because for them, it was all of those childhood memories that were coming back.

    23. TN

      Yeah.

    24. MY

      Like, you know, how cheeky we were and [laughs]

    25. TN

      They, they keep-

    26. MY

      Yeah

    27. TN

      ... a piece of you. That's what I always think.

    28. MY

      Yes.

    29. TN

      Like, you know, I know you were a Twilight fan, but, like, for me, it was, it was, like, Harry Potter was really formative.

    30. MY

      Yes.

  14. 20:05 – 23:45

    Are Pakistani mangoes the best in the world?

    1. MY

      and are not that important to them. It's, like, really fascinating.

    2. TN

      Did you, did you, how did it feel the first time you had a mango again, like a, like a mango from Pakistan? I ask this.

    3. MY

      Yes.

    4. TN

      Some people won't know. They'll be like, "This is the most random question ever." I have a fight with people all over the world, and I go-

    5. MY

      Yes

    6. TN

      ... "If you come from a place with mangoes-

    7. MY

      Yes

    8. TN

      ... there's a mango from your country-

    9. MY

      Yes

    10. TN

      ... that I argue is the best mango in the world."

    11. MY

      It is.

    12. TN

      Like, in South Africa, we have some of them.

    13. MY

      Yes.

    14. TN

      And then in Egypt, I've had amazing mangoes, and I'm trying to think of where else.

    15. MY

      Brazil also have very-

    16. TN

      Brazil also has some nice mangoes

    17. MY

      ... yeah.

    18. TN

      Mango's not bad in Brazil.

    19. MY

      Yes.

    20. TN

      But I was like-

    21. MY

      Pakistani mangoes. [laughs]

    22. TN

      Are they that good?

    23. MY

      Pakistani mangoes are so good. They're not there for that long. The season is very, very short.

    24. TN

      Oh, okay.

    25. MY

      It's just a bit of the July, August time.

    26. TN

      Yeah.

    27. MY

      And-

    28. TN

      So what are they, like, the little yellow ones or the-

    29. MY

      No, big. Big, but-

    30. TN

      Okay, I like that

  15. 23:45 – 26:19

    Growing up under the Taliban: how kids adapted

    1. MY

      switch it to, like, the Taliban and army.

    2. TN

      Oh, damn.

    3. MY

      So one kid would be the Taliban, the other kid would be then the army, and they would be, like, chasing each other. So it does affect kids a lot. And, you know, we were very young. I was 11 years old when the Taliban announced ban on girls education.

    4. TN

      Yeah.

    5. MY

      And I remember, like, those, uh, days when I felt like I could not have a future. That's how they had taken away all the rights from women and girls. And we even would walk to school, um, sometimes, like, in our home clothes-

    6. TN

      Mm-hmm

    7. MY

      ... not in our school uniforms. We would hide our bags under-

    8. TN

      Yeah

    9. MY

      ... our hefty long scarf so they, they could not see it, and we still continued to go to the school. But we tried to hide it in every possible way we could so the Taliban, uh, could not see us. But that's how determined we were. And, you know, at 11 you just want to be a kid playing-

    10. TN

      Yeah

    11. MY

      ... in school. Um, and here we were, like, sacrificing and, and, and fighting, like risking our lives for our education. Our lives just changed completely.

    12. TN

      In those moments, it doesn't seem like you thought you were fighting for something much larger than yourself. You, you were doing the thing that I sometimes think we forget in society, which was you were the people that you now fight for.

    13. MY

      Exactly.

    14. TN

      And what ... I, I, I'm trying to figure out a more articulate way to say it, but I think in crafting your story and sharing it, you remind, you remind us that the people that we're often advocating for, they have agency.

    15. MY

      Yeah.

    16. TN

      You know, we oft- we often make it like-

    17. MY

      Exactly

    18. TN

      ... "Oh, we're giving to charity. We ... Oh, the, the, the homeless pers- do this for," and it's like, oh, no, no. You forget that a lot of the time the people in these situations-

    19. MY

      Yes

    20. TN

      ... they are the main character in their story, and they have-

    21. MY

      Yeah

    22. TN

      ... agency.

    23. MY

      Yes. And we were not a nonprofit. We were not an organization.

    24. TN

      Yeah.

    25. MY

      We were not even some recognized activists. We were just people there in the community. Um, and we simply wanted to have our normal lives back.

    26. TN

      Yeah.

    27. MY

      We wanted to live in peace as we were before and continue our education. It was as simple as that. But because of the Taliban, we were now living under terrorism. Uh, but, you know, that, I'm so grateful that that is something of the past, and it has changed for us. I survived. I became an activist through that. But when I do this work today, like, I think about the 11-year-old Malala.

    28. TN

      Mm.

    29. MY

      And I know there are millions like her

  16. 26:19 – 28:28

    Why girls don’t need saving—they need listening

    1. MY

      out there. They're not just girls who are suffering or who are being left behind. These are girls who are determined.

    2. TN

      Yeah.

    3. MY

      They have a voice.

    4. TN

      Yeah.

    5. MY

      They have agency, and they're actually fighting for their rights. They could be doing it in loud ways. They could be do it, doing it out in the public, or they could just simply be doing it at home when they're picking up their books and their pens and, and, and trying to learn. And I'm seeing that happening in so many parts of the world, from Nigeria to Pakistan to Brazil, all the way to Afghanistan right now. I was talking to four of the Afghan girls who we are supporting through Malala Fund project, and they are learning through a secret school there because the Taliban have banned girls education. And one girl told me that she has converted her home into a school so that she at least feels that she can continue learning at home.

    6. TN

      That's beautiful.

    7. MY

      Um, so you know, this is the, the resilience, the determination of girls. They do not need any inspirational people. They already know what needs to be done, what future they deserve. We just need to listen to them.

    8. TN

      Yeah. Ironically, they don't need the inspiration. They just need the support.

    9. MY

      Exactly.

    10. TN

      Oftentimes w- we make the mistake of thinking we're coming in to save the people, is ... It's like the Superman imagery. Like, even in the most recent Superman, I don't know if you ... Have you seen it?

    11. MY

      I saw it, yes.

    12. TN

      You saw it. Yeah. So you know there's that scene where the people are like, "Superman."

    13. MY

      Yes.

    14. TN

      "Superman." And I had, like, mixed feelings about it 'cause on the one hand I was like, "I mean, I guess they're cheering for Superman," but it made it seem like Superman was their hope.

    15. MY

      Yeah.

    16. TN

      Do you know what I mean?

    17. MY

      Yeah.

    18. TN

      And I was like, I don't know. In real life it feels like they would just be fighting, and then Superman should help.

    19. MY

      Yes.

    20. TN

      You know?

    21. MY

      I know, I know. You know, it's just like, oh, suddenly it looks like it's a country in the global south, the Middle East, or you know. [laughs]

    22. TN

      It was very like, where is this place?

    23. MY

      I know. Very interesting scene.

    24. TN

      Where, wh- what is this place? Th- this border's weird.

    25. MY

      Yes.

    26. TN

      Like, all of it was, um ... A- actually-

    27. MY

      Yeah

    28. TN

      ... y- no, what were you gonna

  17. 28:28 – 30:30

    Forget Superman—who really changes the world?

    1. TN

      say?

    2. MY

      No, I was just gonna say that it's not about somebody with superpowers saving us. I think it's about solidarity, support-

    3. TN

      Yeah

    4. MY

      ... that can make a huge difference. I think it's the local people who can lead change, and that's the whole model of the work that I'm doing through Malala Fund. We are supporting local education activists. So, you know, I, we do global advocacy for education-

    5. TN

      Mm-hmm

    6. MY

      ... and I speak, and I, you know, have created this global platform. But, like, our investments actually go to local organizations in Tanzania, Ethiopia, Pakistan, India, um, I mean, Brazil, and, um, sorry, f- I think, uh, Afghanistan.

    7. TN

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    8. MY

      And these activists are changing policies. They are working on legislations. They are working with local community leaders. They are working directly with girls, and a lot of these activists are young girls themselves. So it's, like, a phenomenal work. Like, when you visit one project, you just see the impact that these activists are creating. It's truly phenomenal. In Tanzania this summer, I went, and I saw how one organization, Msemina Initiative, were addressing the issue of girls' safety walking to school-

    9. TN

      Yeah

    10. MY

      ... because these girls have to walk for, like, up to 10 miles. I just could not believe the number. I double-checked. I said, "Are you sure it's 10 miles?" They said, "Yes." That's how long girls have to walk. So they brought in bicycles initiative-

    11. TN

      Hmm

    12. MY

      ... to help them, uh, have a safer and easier and quicker journey to the schools. Um, and it's, you know, not just addressing the transport issue, but it's giving them safety as well. It's just incredible work that these activists do. Like, you cannot fix these problems from DC or London.

    13. TN

      Right.

    14. MY

      It's about us further supporting and strengthening the local activism that is happening. It's through grants. It's through giving them the tools, the technical support, and being there as their allies. Like, you know, that's,

  18. 30:30 – 33:33

    Why no one actually wants to be a refugee

    1. MY

      that's all we need Because for a lasting sustainable change, we have to strengthen the local communities

    2. TN

      Well, I also think we have to see them as people, and I, I ... That's what I love, you know, i- in what you've done in the book is, like, reminding yourself that you're looking at people

    3. MY

      Yeah

    4. TN

      Oftentimes people think that refugees are refugees because they don't wanna be in their country, or refugees are refugees because, you know, their country sucks or because ... And it's like, no, no, no, no. These are people who wanna stay there

    5. MY

      Yeah

    6. TN

      You know, something's pushing them. They have friends.

    7. MY

      Yeah

    8. TN

      They have rituals. They have ideas. They have, like, there's, like, a vibe that you don't wanna ... There's mangoes

    9. MY

      Yes [laughs]

    10. TN

      Do you know what I mean?

    11. MY

      Yeah

    12. TN

      There's the mangoes

    13. MY

      And think about your life right now. Like, why would you just leave your home?

    14. TN

      Yeah

    15. MY

      Who wants to pack as much as they can and go and start a life in a new country? Who wants to walk for days and days, put their lives at risk, and somehow, you know, be praying that they find safety somewhere? Like, nobody wants that. Becoming a refugee is the last resort. It's the last and the only option that people have who, um, have to leave their homes-

    16. TN

      Mm-hmm

    17. MY

      ... because of the challenging circumstances. I think we have to show more empathy because this could happen to any of us due to any circumstances from climate related events to conflicts and other dangers. Thinking, you know, we should think about our neighbors. If somebody is in difficult situation, we, we should open our doors. And I also share this story, um, sometimes that when we became displaced in Swat Valley, um, in, in Pakistan, it was around 2009, it was not that most people were in these, like, refugee camps. A lot of the people were welcomed by strangers in the neighboring cities

    18. TN

      Mm-hmm

    19. MY

      People just opened their doors. They just gave their rooms, their homes, their food, everything. And, uh, in our culture, that was, like, completely normal because hospitality is a part of, uh, our culture. It's part of the Pashtun hospitality. It's a big part of the Pakistani culture. So I hope that, you know, we, we promote these good values everywhere [laughs]

    20. TN

      Actually, I hope we do, especially because we forget how hard it is to begin a life somewhere else. Like-

    21. MY

      Yes

    22. TN

      ... you know, you know, there's, there's the story you tell when, when you're packing your bags, you know, to go to university in Birmingham. And this, this whole period of your life, I, again, I, I would have never thought of you like that. You're one of the smartest people I've ever met. You, one of the most thoughtful human beings I know. You, you seem to have a broad range of knowledge that just, I mean, it spans everything. And then I'm reading these stories of you having self-doubt and struggling and what was like 41% in English, I think it was

    23. MY

      Yeah

    24. TN

      And-

    25. MY

      Like, in every subject, almost [laughs]

    26. TN

      But you see, like, like, in my head, I go like, "No, Malala's always been a high achiever." And, and yet-

    27. MY

      Yeah

    28. TN

      ... here you are stressed about belonging. And probably, probably the funniest one for me was what you packed in

  19. 33:33 – 40:34

    The jeans photo that broke the internet

    1. TN

      your bag.

    2. MY

      Yes [laughs]

    3. TN

      [laughs] When you knew you were gonna be out of your parents' watch, it was like jeans. Even, okay, this is what I mean. Even-

    4. MY

      Cardigans

    5. TN

      Yeah

    6. MY

      I never want to wear cardigans again, but at the time I was like, I was looking up on Google what is trending, so I searched up Selena Gomez 2017-

    7. TN

      Yes

    8. MY

      ... casual style [laughs]

    9. TN

      Yes. Let's do it. Oh, that's amazing

    10. MY

      Yeah, I was like, "What is Emma Watson wearing these days?" You know, like, what are these cool girls wearing that I wanna wear as well? I had no idea because before that I had never really worn, uh, jeans-

    11. TN

      Mm-hmm

    12. MY

      ... and just more casual Western-style, style clothing

    13. TN

      Right

    14. MY

      And, and I was thinking more like, "Okay, what else is there outside shalwar kameez? That's the only dress my mom wants me to wear because for her I am representing my whole culture."

    15. TN

      Yes. Yeah

    16. MY

      And my relatives are watching me, so we cannot, uh, cause any trouble. And she should not be taking long phone calls because people are just, uh, shocked to see me [laughs] in a different dress. And so I was like, "I need to figure out a way." So I was still following some rules around like, okay, you know, keep the sleeves long and-

    17. TN

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

    18. MY

      ... it's, it's still like, you know, a bit baggy and, and ... But I was like, "Yeah, I want to, um, assimilate. I want to be among these students, and I want to be invisible in some ways [laughs] that nobody can spot me," because my Pakistani clothes are very flashy and bright and colorful and embroidered and all of that

    19. TN

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

    20. MY

      So my goal was that when I go to college, nobody's shocked like, "Oh, that's who she is," or, "Oh, th- this is very similar to the person we have seen on TV"

    21. TN

      Yeah

    22. MY

      I wanted to look slightly different as well. Like-

    23. TN

      Malala undercover. That's what I'm hearing

    24. MY

      Yes. Undercover-

    25. TN

      TV show, Malala Undercover

    26. MY

      A student. A student. Like, imagine when you are in college and somebody's, like, dressed up nicely. No, everybody's just [laughs]

    27. TN

      Everyone looks the same

    28. MY

      ... in a hoodie, in a cardigan, in a jumper. They're, you know, they're wearing leggings or what, what do you call it in America? I think I'm using a lot of British-

    29. TN

      No, I think, I think leggings are-

    30. MY

      Leggings

  20. 40:34 – 43:45

    The argument that changed her father’s mind

    1. MY

      arguing with me was that why is it always about my clothes that is a topic of discussion? My brothers immediately switch to jeans and tops.

    2. TN

      [laughs]

    3. MY

      Not a problem. No calls from our relatives.

    4. TN

      [laughs] I like how you just drag them into it.

    5. MY

      You know, I love fighting.

    6. TN

      Your brothers were safe, and you were like, "What about..."

    7. MY

      Yeah.

    8. TN

      That is the classic sibling move.

    9. MY

      [laughs]

    10. TN

      "What about my brothers?"

    11. MY

      What about my brothers?

    12. TN

      [laughs]

    13. MY

      It is true. Also, like, I'm really scared of my mom, so it's really hard to argue with her because you will never win. So somehow you have to just come to an agreement where-

    14. TN

      Yeah. Okay

    15. MY

      ... she respects your decision somehow, but you can never say that I was right. You can never say that. But with my dad, I am, like, a debater. I argue with him.

    16. TN

      That's dope.

    17. MY

      So I was like, "Dad, have you ever pointed a finger at your two sons and what they wear?"

    18. TN

      [laughs]

    19. MY

      And he stopped for a second and said, "Yes, I think you are right. Yeah, yeah."

    20. TN

      Oh, that's amazing.

    21. MY

      Yeah. He, he is, um, an amazing father, an amazing man, an amazing husband. For, for me, of course, like, I was so grateful that he was a great father, and he always tells this story that, "Don't ask me what I did, but ask me what I did not do-

    22. TN

      Hmm

    23. MY

      ... for my daughter, and that is I did not clip her wings." Amazing father. But I think what made an, a greater, um, impact or what made, like, a, an even bigger difference on me was how he was treating my mom, how he was a great husband as well.

    24. TN

      Hmm.

    25. MY

      And that influenced me a lot in how I had, like, very high expectations for the person who was going to be my life partner, even though I had a lot of, like, questions about if I'll find one and do I deserve one and-

    26. TN

      Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine

    27. MY

      ... is he the right one? But the one thing I was sure of was that I needed, that I know how I should be treated because I saw how my dad was treating my mom. Um, so I think, you know, our dads can also be role models for us For how they can be, like, good husbands, and also, like, better parents to the sons in the family. [laughs]

    28. TN

      No, definitely. I agree with that. I agree.

    29. MY

      And how they treat others and, yeah.

    30. TN

      So wait, wait. So, uh, what about your brothers? Do they have, like, the flip relationship? 'Cause a lot of the time that'll be the case, is like the girls will have an easier time with their dad-

  21. 43:45 – 50:48

    How Malala became everyone’s relationship coach

    1. MY

      Not like I opened a book and I smelled the pages and like-

    2. TN

      No, no, no, no, no

    3. MY

      ... not like that.

    4. TN

      Not like that. Not pretentious.

    5. MY

      It was more like I closed the book. [laughs]

    6. TN

      It's exactly. And just like-

    7. MY

      And I s- yeah. And I was like, oh. I was smelling what my friends were having, and I was like, "Hmm, what's that?" And I was like, "Oh, what are these new things?" And, you know, what are these people doing? [laughs] So.

    8. TN

      I, I wanna talk to you about your first friend, because-

    9. MY

      Yes

    10. TN

      ... i- it's, it, it seems like one of the most important relationships in your ... And your first friend, I should say, in your new life. Because you, you, you had your friends from home. You've got your school friends. You've got your, your, your childhood friends. But you make this new friend who I feel like we are partially, we should all be grateful to her as well because, like, she, she just gave you normal, you know?

    11. MY

      Which one?

    12. TN

      Oh, I, I think, was it Cora maybe was-

    13. MY

      Yeah, the first one, right?

    14. TN

      Yes, yes, yes, yes.

    15. MY

      Yes.

    16. TN

      Yeah, yeah.

    17. MY

      Yes. Uh, so she was my height. [laughs] And, uh, when I was walking around on the college open day just trying to, like, figure out who to say hello to, I, I saw her and I, you know, was giving myself this confidence that, "Don't be shy. Say hello." Was like, "Hi, I'm Malala. What's your name?" "Hi, I'm Cora. I'm ..." You know, I was like, "What are you studying?" "Studying PPE." I was like, "Same. I'm also studying PPE." Like, [laughs] this is how-

    18. TN

      Wait, what is, what is PPE?

    19. MY

      Philosophy, politics, and economics.

    20. TN

      Oh. Oh, okay, okay.

    21. MY

      Yes.

    22. TN

      Philosophy, politics, and economics. Okay.

    23. MY

      Yeah.

    24. TN

      PPE. Got it.

    25. MY

      Yes.

    26. TN

      I didn't, I didn't go to university.

    27. MY

      And I was like-

    28. TN

      I don't know any of these things. Sorry

    29. MY

      ... you know, and where do you live, and why did you decide on this college? You just start a conversation and-

    30. TN

      Yeah

  22. 50:48 – 56:00

    What her first panic attack taught her about trauma

    1. TN

      Yeah.

    2. MY

      That when I went there to that room, I realized that I wasn't the only one there. There were, like, other students, um, walking out of that, uh, study room, and I was like, oh, like, so I'm, I'm not the only one, and there's, like, some of my friends who are also getting this support. [smacks lips] So I changed my approach. I said, "Okay, I'll, I'll always make sure that I ask for help."

    3. TN

      Yeah. That's-

    4. MY

      But that's, yeah, that's like a normal college life, right? Sort of.

    5. TN

      And, and that's, yeah, but that's, that's, I think that's what makes it so powerful is w- we forget how much all of us in life will always, um, will always yearn for the thing we don't have, right?

    6. MY

      Yeah.

    7. TN

      And in a perfect world, everyone will have enough of what they need, you know, whether it's, uh, good or even friction could be bad. Just have enough of what you need. And so I do like that you're talking about the rooftops and the late nights and the-

    8. MY

      Yeah

    9. TN

      ... talking to the friends, because it feels like in this moment in time, that's what you needed.

    10. MY

      Yeah, and I knew that I would be in college just for three years.

    11. TN

      Yeah.

    12. MY

      I did not know what was happening after that, that I said, "This is the only time maybe-

    13. TN

      Yeah

    14. MY

      ... that I'll have such fun and I could be myself." And yeah, I was like, all the surveillance cameras are, are not there. I'm in my safe space. And college was, of course, like, a really exciting and fun time, but it was also a difficult time at this, uh, because, you know, I had some experiences where, um, it was the first time that I had a, a panic attack, like a big panic attack, when I was with some of my friends and was struggling with my assignments. Uh, so one friend invited me to hang out with them outside in the gardens. And, and, and I joined them. It was still late at night, but I said, you know, like, "This is, this is so normal for me. I'll finish my essay by, by, by, by the morning."

    15. TN

      Yeah.

    16. MY

      And we were just chatting, and they were trying, uh, bong. I had never seen bong.

    17. TN

      Like a bong?

    18. MY

      Yeah, like a bong.

    19. TN

      Like the [gurgling] that thing?

    20. MY

      [laughs] Yeah.

    21. TN

      Okay.

    22. MY

      Exactly that.

    23. TN

      [laughs]

    24. MY

      Anyway, I was like, "Oh, what is this?" And they were like, "You know, just, like, related to weed, all of that." I was like, "Oh, yeah, like, that's not that serious." Um, so they were like, "You know, you have to try it." So I took one puff. I coughed. It just, I was like, "Oh, you know, what is this?" Then they were like, "No, no, just, you know, try one more time." I was like, "Okay." Tried it again, and I felt like I, I inhaled it and suddenly just went inside, and I don't know where time went. But this time, I, like, I lost, I disconnected from reality, and I felt like, um, I, I, I was just like, I thought I was dead again. I thought I had been-

    25. TN

      Wow

    26. MY

      ... attacked, and I thought, um, even though I don't remember anything about the incident, I thought it was h- all happening in repeat and time slowed down. I could not feel my body anymore, and my friend suddenly realized what was happening, so she helped, uh, me and, uh, I was holding her hand tight. She somehow took me to her room, and I don't know how I survived that night, but I could not sleep because as soon as I would try to close my eyes, I thought this was the end of it. I would not be able to wake up. Um, I thought, like, I was, I was somehow, like, losing life. And it was, um, it felt like it was, again, that whole time of the attack where I was in induced coma and I wanted to get up, but I could not. I wanted to feel like I was awake. I wa- I, I needed to know that I was alive, and I just could not. Um, yeah, but then, you know, the next day I knew that my body had changed forever. I just felt like m- I could not be the same person anymore.

    27. TN

      Yeah.

    28. MY

      I became anemic, and then I, you know, called for a friend and, and she, um, she helped me. Then at the time, I just could not explain to my friends what was happening. I didn't even know if it was normal or not. I did not even know if it was a panic attack or not.

    29. TN

      Yeah, because it's so jarring.

    30. MY

      It's... It was just, I was like, "Oh, maybe it's just about me," because of what I had experienced-

  23. 56:00 – 1:12:54

    How therapy finally helped her breathe again

    1. MY

      and-

    2. TN

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    3. MY

      ... from, like, facial symmetry to, like, nerve surgery to the hearing implant, and all of these things were happening, and then there was a, a therapist as well, and she was the only person in that whole hospital that I did not like.

    4. TN

      Oh, wow.

    5. MY

      I thought she was asking me too many questions, and I just want to, like, recover. I just want to be able to get up.

    6. TN

      Yeah.

    7. MY

      Why is she asking me about how am I feeling? I said, "What's there to talk about [laughs] feelings right now?"

    8. TN

      Wow.

    9. MY

      That many years later, I, I did not know if therapy would be helpful at all. Um, and then my friend said, "No," like we all... Like, she said, like, she goes, um, to see a therapist. She said... And I was like, "But you are f-" She's like, "No, that's not the point."

    10. TN

      Hmm.

    11. MY

      Um, we can talk about different issues. You don't know who it's affecting. And then I realized that so many people were actually seeing therapists, so that was the first time I saw a therapist many, many years later, um, and it was because of these panic attacks that I realized I have to go and see a therapist. Because in then I felt like I just, I just could not do it. I just could not.

    12. TN

      W- when you, when you share that, it, um, it reminds me of a conversation we actually had on the podcast with, um, a neuroscientist who specializes in trauma.

    13. MY

      Yeah.

    14. TN

      And she taught us something that I'd, I'd never known before, which was people who have experienced an, like an acute trauma, part of their PTSD is their cortisol levels change-

    15. MY

      Hmm

    16. TN

      ... like the normal, the baseline.

    17. MY

      Yeah.

    18. TN

      And where most times in society, I think this was discovered around the 1980s, um, with, uh, veterans of the Vietnam War. It's that people had sort of depleted their cortisol.

    19. MY

      Yeah.

    20. TN

      And so something could inflame it, something could trigger it, something could bring it back. And the most important thing she said about the trauma and just how we talk about these things is we often assume people should be willing to share their stories when we're willing to hear them.

    21. MY

      Mm-hmm.

    22. TN

      But the real thing that unlocks it is them meeting a person at the right time who says-

    23. MY

      Yeah

    24. TN

      ... the right thing. Often it's a person who's experienced something similar. You find, you find you share-

    25. MY

      Yes

    26. TN

      ... a different bond, a different connection, a different, a different way of, of speaking about it even that's less sanitized than, you know, sometimes like a strict-

    27. MY

      Yes

    28. TN

      ... therapist-patient relationship. So it's, it's a- it's amazing that, that you experienced that on the ground. Did you find that the therapy helped?

    29. MY

      The therapy helped a lot, and I fully agree with you. I could not explain it to my parents. I could not explain it to anybody else. I could talk a bit about it to my friends, and I think they recognized that I needed them around me.

    30. TN

      Yeah.

  24. 1:12:54 – 1:16:18

    Why speaking her mind still gets her in trouble

    1. MY

      married or not because I had, like, a billion questions about marriage as an institution and all of that. So in the interview, somehow I said Or like why do we have to get married? Why can't it just be like a partnership and just two people living together? Why is this like this complicated concept of marriage? And when that piece came out, there was this huge backlash [laughs] that people eventually were saying that Malala is against marriage, and then they said Nikah. So Nikah is the religious cer- Islamic ceremony.

    2. TN

      Oh, wow. Okay.

    3. MY

      They made it so specific that-

    4. TN

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    5. MY

      ... Malala is advocating against this religious practice which is like so important for, you know, for, for us, for, for, for Muslims or Pakistanis. And like when you look back at the whole interview, you, you like, you, you don't see it. Like, it's not that I have said that I'm against it. I-

    6. TN

      Yes

    7. MY

      ... think nobody should be doing that. There's none of that. But nobody was ... The people who were making that claim were not going to the article.

    8. TN

      No, no, no. They don't.

    9. MY

      And, and you, you realize that, you know, this is ... These are narratives that, you know, one person ignites it, they create that spark, and then everybody else is like, "This is a wonderful opportunity. We had been looking for it. Like, let's, let's distribute it. Let's share it." So this ... There is a bit of that danger with social media because by the time you explain yourself-

    10. TN

      Oh, no, it's gone

    11. MY

      ... it's, it's too late, it's gone. So I, I remember again, like my mom and dad were disappointed with me.

    12. TN

      Oh.

    13. MY

      [laughs] That why-

    14. TN

      It's the genes. First the genes and now this

    15. MY

      ... now this. They're like, "Can you just..." And my mom actually said, my mom was like, "I wish you had never spoken."

    16. TN

      Oh.

    17. MY

      And it, it broke my heart. I was really sad, but it also made me angry that why do I have to somehow sound all perfect? If I repeat my lines, I might clarify it a bit.

    18. TN

      Yeah.

    19. MY

      But it ... You know, like why, why can't I be a normal 23-year-old who is just confused about marriage? Why can't I question it? I can't just pretend like I have figured out everything and I have all the answers. And if I'm suddenly put on the spot and asked about marriage, of course I'm gonna say, "Uh, uh, marriage? What? Who, who's getting married? Me? [laughs]

    20. TN

      [laughs]

    21. MY

      Why do you have to get married?" That's exactly how I felt. I thought she like caught me red-handed there.

    22. TN

      Yeah, she like threw a curveball at you.

    23. MY

      Yeah.

    24. TN

      Yeah, in that moment.

    25. MY

      And, um, but you know, after that interview was out, I was still thinking about Asser, who's now my husband, and I was ... You know, like there were many moments in which I realized how he was the right person and the perfect person for me.

    26. TN

      That's beautiful.

    27. MY

      Because in that moment he was so calm. He actually explained it to my parents why they should not push me to release a statement in defense. He talked to them.

    28. TN

      Wow.

    29. MY

      And when we spent some time together, I realized that we actually have the best time. All these questions I have about marriage and, you know, this being an institution historically that has oppressed women, and it's patriarchal, and, you know, women make more compromises. When they make this decision, like how much do they lose on the way in terms of their career and how maternity affects them? Or like, you know, is this guy gonna turn out to be a good guy after we get married or-

    30. TN

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

  25. 1:16:18 – 1:23:09

    How Malala fell in love (and redefined marriage)

    1. MY

      I do not regret it for a second that I had a billion questions about marriage, and I took my time, and I asked him all those silly questions as much as I could [laughs] because, um, this is a reality-

    2. TN

      Yeah

    3. MY

      ... that women and girls go through. And I had like everything. I, I had a platform, a career. I could make money. I ... You know, what was I s- why was I so scared of it? I was an advocate for girls' rights. Like, I knew my rights. I knew women's rights. [laughs]

    4. TN

      And now here you were-

    5. MY

      And somehow I was scared. I felt like I was gonna lose something.

    6. TN

      Wow.

    7. MY

      Lose something and, um, and w- you know, when I got married, I realized, wow, like it feels quite normal. Like, huh, I'm s- still the same person. [laughs] Nothing has changed. Or like, you know, something like I'm like, "I'm watching you, you know. You are my husband, but we're just friends." [laughs]

    8. TN

      [laughs]

    9. MY

      I still joke with him. I'm like, "You know, it's just we- we're husband and wife to the world outside, but we're just friends." And, you know, just kidding.

    10. TN

      No, but I love, I love-

    11. MY

      But we are. We are friends.

    12. TN

      Yeah, I love, I love-

    13. MY

      We are best friends.

    14. TN

      [upbeat music] We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break. So, so this is what I, what I enjoy is, you know, y- you even talk about this and, and it's, it's, it's beautiful to read, is the ... It's like, it's like the nitty-gritty.

    15. MY

      Yeah.

    16. TN

      It's, it's the non-airbrushed. It's the, it's the human. You know? It's just the human that we all are. No one ... I think n- m- most people wouldn't think of like Malala having a crush. Most people wouldn't think of Malala being insecure or wondering about what love is or what love isn't, but, like people wouldn't have these things. I've experienced it like in different ways 'cause everyone paints a picture of you-

    17. MY

      Yeah

    18. TN

      ... when they paint a picture. I remember telling someone once, "Oh, yeah, and I, I didn't have anyone who would go to, uh, prom with me in, in South Africa."

    19. MY

      Yes.

    20. TN

      "It was the matric dance." People were like, "Oh, you're lying. You just say..." And I was like, "Oh, you have an image of me in this moment in time."

    21. MY

      Yeah.

    22. TN

      You weren't with me for any of the insecurities or the journeys that I've been on.

    23. MY

      I had a question for you.

    24. TN

      Oh, yeah. Shoot.

    25. MY

      Did you s- ever speak to Zahira? Did you-

    26. TN

      Again?

    27. MY

      Like-

    28. TN

      Like after-

    29. MY

      ... recently, yeah.

    30. TN

      No.

  26. 1:23:09 – 1:28:08

    The “bad boy” college crush she had to outgrow

    1. TN

      you stepped out.

    2. MY

      I pursued love, but you know, Aser was not my first love. Um, I had a crush before Aser, and, uh, this was before I had met Aser, so-

    3. TN

      Yeah

    4. MY

      ... you know, just to disclose.

    5. TN

      No c- no clipping internet.

    6. MY

      Exactly.

    7. TN

      Don't worry. We'll, we'll-

    8. MY

      Exactly

    9. TN

      ... it's, it's in full. No clipping.

    10. MY

      But it was a similar thing, that this guy, Tariq, was this mysterious boy in college.

    11. TN

      Yeah.

    12. MY

      And there was not much that I knew about him, but I knew he was cool because there were secrets about him.

    13. TN

      [laughs]

    14. MY

      And he was that guy who gets in trouble. And somehow I thought maybe I could fix him.

    15. TN

      Oh, wow. [laughs]

    16. MY

      So I would ask him questions like, "Why are you, you know, why are you upset?" Then he would complain about the essays and the tutors.

    17. TN

      Yeah.

    18. MY

      And I said, "Why is nobody helping you? I think we have to talk to your tutors. Let me bring this up to the principal." And he said, "Nah, man, it's just, you know, it's just..." [laughs]

    19. TN

      Bad boy Tariq.

    20. MY

      Bad boy. And, um, yeah, like, he would just come to my room and eat bananas and any snacks, and then-

    21. TN

      [laughs]

    22. MY

      ... leave. But for me, I knew that I could not be with Tariq. Tariq was just an idea. It was that feeling.

    23. TN

      Yeah.

    24. MY

      And was never even gonna become real. I, and I do not even know why I was chasing him, because at the time I didn't wanna get married or I didn't wanna have a boyfriend or any of that. Like, um-

    25. TN

      Wa- was that because... What, what, what was that?

    26. MY

      Just culture. I was still new in college.

    27. TN

      Right. Right.

    28. MY

      It was so overwhelming. Like, I was still fighting for my right to wear jeans.

    29. TN

      Oh.

    30. MY

      I was not gonna think about a guy. And with Tariq, I knew it was like this, but there's something about him that I'm somehow chasing him. And in the end, he disappears from college because, you know, he's that boy who gets in trouble and, and, you know, he's that bad boy-

  27. 1:28:08 – 1:31:59

    What love looks like when you stop being a symbol

    1. MY

      I think I wanted that person to not see me as a saint.

    2. TN

      Yeah.

    3. MY

      I wanted that person to see me for who I was, and Asser from the start never received me as the Malala or as the girl he had heard about somewhere. He never even asked me a single question. Uh, I think even to this day, like, we never talk about what happened and what was life like in Swat Valley. And, um, you know, he read my book [laughs] I think around the wedding time or after that just to catch up on the story because I f-

    4. TN

      Oh, no

    5. MY

      ... I feel like he thought my dad ask, might ask him questions, so, [laughs] uh, you know, for him it just didn't matter.

    6. TN

      Yeah.

    7. MY

      For him he, he saw the Malala that was in front of him, and she was growing. She was learning.

    8. TN

      Hmm.

    9. MY

      She was still asking questions, and she was still figuring things out. Like, he accepted me for who I was and who I was becoming. That was really, uh, life-changing because e- even now I don't feel like I have to be this, like, fixed version of me. We're just so open with each other. We giggle, we laugh. I can be so silly with him. I'm truly like myself. I, I don't think twice when I say something in front of him.

    10. TN

      That's, I mean, that's-

    11. MY

      That's the best thing. Y- it's not about like, "Oh, am I hurting your feelings or something?" And, and you're not hurting your feelings. Like, somehow you just y- you know how to look after each other, how to keep each other happy, and, um, and even, like, and because he's just, like, so amazing that sometimes even if I am, like, upset about something, it's just so minute.

    12. TN

      Hmm.

    13. MY

      But for him, he cannot see me upset, so he will take it very seriously. He'll just, like, stop everything, and he said, "Let's resolve the issue." And I'm like, "No, it's fine. It's not a big deal."

    14. TN

      [laughs]

    15. MY

      "No, nothing is going on. No, I'm fine. We'll, you know, just talk about it later." And he's like, "No. Tell me what happened." And I think one time I told him that when he, um, drinks his, like, protein shake-

    16. TN

      Yeah

    17. MY

      ... he sort of leaves the glass, and then I pick it up, and I rinse it. So I was like, "This is a big deal. Why do I have to rinse your glass?" And I was like, "Patriarchy, man, all of these things."

    18. TN

      [laughs]

    19. MY

      I was like, "I'm advocating for girls' rights. I do not want to be an advocate at home." You know, imagine-

    20. TN

      Oh

    21. MY

      ... like you're fighting a battle, and then suddenly you're like, "I have to fix the guy at home too?"

    22. TN

      Oh.

    23. MY

      So I was like, "No, nothing." And then I was like, well, you know, my mom was here as well and, like, I just felt so much pressure. And I thought, like-

    24. TN

      Yeah, I can imagine

    25. MY

      ... it's not that it was just us two. I felt like people were watching us as well, and I thought they were judging us, like, it... And he was like, "Oh, you know," he's like, "Well, but we split work. Like, you know, you do the dishwasher, but I do the, the, the clothes washing, and I do-

    26. TN

      Yeah

    27. MY

      ... the laundry and all of that." And- And I was like, "Yeah, you kind of do a lot more things than me, that's true, but there's something about the dishes." And I was like, "It's just like my mom also, like, noticed it." And then he said, like, "Yeah, sort of like you're right. Yeah, of course I should like, you know, pick up the dishes-

    28. TN

      Uh-huh, uh-huh

    29. MY

      ... or whatever I use and, and put them in the dishwasher." Like, that point onwards, it's been like two, three years now, I have never seen him, like, leave his, um-

    30. TN

      Oh, wow

  28. 1:31:59 – 1:46:06

    From rinsing glasses to fighting patriarchy

    1. MY

      What are you guys doing? I'm not gonna talk to you.

    2. TN

      Yeah, just trauma.

    3. MY

      This is what I want to tell l- leaders. Why would you not invest in girls education? Why would you not p- put money in there when you know the benefits are exponential? It will improve economies. It will reduce poverty. It will help tackle climate change. It will help create a better, safer future. Why is it that 120 million girls do not have the right to be in school?

    4. TN

      What do they say to you when you ask them these questions?

    5. MY

      I think it's the same old thing, like, "In the f- last five years we have committed more than-"

    6. TN

      Oh, committed

    7. MY

      ... "this many million-"

    8. TN

      They love committed

    9. MY

      ... "dollars."

    10. TN

      Yeah, yeah, committed.

    11. MY

      "And we are committed more than ever."

    12. TN

      Pledging and committing, yeah.

    13. MY

      And we know that there's a huge gap in funding for education. Climate related events, these wars and conflicts are worsening it. Afghanistan is the most extreme case because when the Taliban took power in, uh, four years ago, they immediately announced a ban on girls education.

    14. TN

      Mm.

    15. MY

      Girls are not allowed to be in school beyond grade six. Women cannot be in universities. Women cannot work. They cannot be in the parliament. They cannot play sports. They cannot go see a doctor without a male chaperone. They cannot visit a park. They cannot even speak loudly when they're inside their houses. That's how much the Taliban are controlling the lives of women, from their voices, to how they dress, to their movement. It is like the most systemic oppressive regime that the women are living under right now, and it's painful to see it happening every day.

    16. TN

      Yeah.

    17. MY

      Very painful to see it. And the Afghan women are, like, living it. Um, and, uh, but in this time when I think about the bravery and the courage of the Afghan women who are standing up to the Taliban, and they want to, like, reclaim the old lives they had. It's not that these, you know, women had a, um, were sort of used to this culture. No, they had fought really hard for their right to be working, to be in school, and the Taliban just suddenly took all of that away from them. Afghan activists are calling it a gender apartheid.

    18. TN

      Hmm.

    19. MY

      That this is systemic oppression in which women are oppressed simply based on their gender. If they were born a boy, they would have a different life.

    20. TN

      Yeah.

    21. MY

      But they are born a girl, they cannot be in school, they cannot imagine to work, and it's the Taliban who are determining their lives and restricting them to the four walls of their houses. They are erasing women from public life in any political participation.

    22. TN

      Hmm.

    23. MY

      They're literally erasing women. And, and they're punishing women for disobeying any of these rules. That's the most important thing because people often think that gender discrimination is a problem in a lot of countries and in, in the Global South-

    24. TN

      Yeah

    25. MY

      ... or that, you know, these things happen, it's culture, it's this and that. And I'm not saying that that is not a reality. Of course that is, and things weren't perfect for women and, uh, and girls in Afghanistan before the Taliban. But what's different under the Taliban regime is that it is systemic. The people who are supposed to protect civilians, the people who are supposed to give justice to women and girls, are the ones who are the perpetrators. They are committing the crimes. It is systemic crime where they are abusing their power. And in cases like these, where do the women go? Because i- it, h- they can't seek justice from the Taliban.

    26. TN

      Yeah, there's, there's no one.

    27. MY

      The Taliban police are the ones who are arresting them for simply daring to learn, or go to a secret school, or protest, or simply go to work. So many of these households are run by women. Women are the, are the breadwinners, and the Taliban just do not allow them to work. So it's a very difficult, um, place for, for women right now, but I'm always inspired by their resilience and their courage and how they're fighting back. The activists who are in exile are doing advocacy globally, from codifying gender apartheid, to bringing women's issues to the stage, to also pushing for the inclusion of women and girls on the agenda-

    28. TN

      Mm-hmm

    29. MY

      ... where any peace talks and dialogues are happening. To also women being present in those rooms where decisions about the future of Afghanistan are made.

    30. TN

      Right.

  29. 1:46:06 – 1:48:28

    Where Malala finds home now

    1. MY

      never be taken away

    2. TN

      Yeah

    3. MY

      Even if I spend the rest of my life somewhere on Mars, it can never be taken away. I feel like a part of me belongs to that soil, to that air, like, like I'm there. Like my soul is somehow there

    4. TN

      It is. But it is. I genuinely believe that it is

    5. MY

      Yeah. And, and when I visited my, my parents' village, Shangla, where we had built a school and I wanted to visit their school-

    6. TN

      Yeah

    7. MY

      ... and just see the girls, like the first class that were graduating, but I also saw the graveyard of my grandmother, Abba-

    8. TN

      Mm

    9. MY

      ... who was so dear to me, and I just could not imagine losing her because I thought she was somebody who was praying for me all the time. I felt safe when she was there. And when she was gone, I immediately felt that something had gone missing in my life

    10. TN

      Yeah

    11. MY

      But when I visited her grave, I realized that she was there. She was there in, in the air. And, and, and I just felt her presence, and I felt her prayers. Um, but now, like I'm, I'm, I'm traveling. I am spending time with my friends, with my husband, and I don't find that home and belonging, uh, just in the places and the locations where I am, but it's among the people

    12. TN

      That's the idea

    13. MY

      It, it's, it's with my siblings, that little fight that we have

    14. TN

      Yeah

    15. MY

      The argument. It's with my mom and dad. It's with my husband when we are just binge-watching a TV show. It's everywhere where I meet incredible girls, activists who give me hope, who inspire me, and whose work is really changing the world for, for people out there. I always have this, uh, sense of relief-

    16. TN

      Yeah

    17. MY

      ... and happiness in my heart when I see-

    18. TN

      Mm-hmm

    19. MY

      ... the work of other people, and I know they're doing so much more that we don't see, that we don't hear about. But they are changing the lives of people. They're changing their communities. And, um, and, you know, and I feel safer, and I feel happier when I see that world, and I think, you know, we should always, like, hold hands together and be in solidarity with, with each other. And I just, for me, ideally, like, this whole globe should be our home, you know? That we are more friendly and more, we're nicer to each other, kinder to each

  30. 1:48:28 – 1:49:34

    Trevor’s final thought

    1. MY

      other [laughs]

    2. TN

      Yeah. As my, my brother says it the best way. He says, "Whenever you, whenever you feel skeptical and you feel like the whole world is going the wrong way," which it can and many times, he always says, "Go outside and touch grass."

    3. MY

      Yeah

    4. TN

      Just go outside, touch grass. You'll see somebody else on that grass, and that might be the beginning of a new friendship

    5. MY

      Yeah

    6. TN

      And so I, I appreciate you for that. Thank you. Thank you for joining me here

    7. MY

      Thank you so much

    8. TN

      Thank you for inspiring me

    9. MY

      [laughs]

    10. TN

      But also reminding me that you're not only inspirational. I like that. I like to know that you're flawed 'cause it makes me feel a little better about myself

    11. MY

      Oh, you're welcome. Just kidding. [laughs]

    12. TN

      [laughs] Thank you so much, Malala

    13. MY

      Thank you

    14. TN

      This was great. Thank you so much for watching the episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friend still. Let them suffer for a change. And don't forget to engage with us in the comments. Uh, if you wanna, uh, suggest a guest, maybe there's questions you want, maybe there's ideas that you have, you can chat to us. We will read through the comments, and we'll get into it. Either way, I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you for hanging out with us on What Now? And remember, we do this for you, so we would like to hear from you. Till next time, thank you

Episode duration: 1:49:37

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