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Meet Derek Fordjour – One of My Favorite People | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

Interdisciplinary artist Derek Fordjour is one of my Favorite People. In the episode we discuss creating art, African diaspora, and assigning value within society. Above all else, we agree humans need storytelling.

Trevor NoahhostDerek Fordjourguest

May 8, 20251h 46mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

115 min read · 22,609 words

0:00 – 0:55
Intro
1. TNTrevor Noah
  How do you know when something's finished?
2. DFDerek Fordjour
  [music] I think there's a creeping feeling that you get where you're like, "Ah, I'm not making this better." You know? It's kind of like when you're in a barber's chair, like, the longer you're there-
3. TNTrevor Noah
  [laughs]
4. DFDerek Fordjour
  ... this guy can only remove hair.
5. TNTrevor Noah
  [laughs]
6. DFDerek Fordjour
  [laughs] Do you know what I'm saying?
7. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying.
8. DFDerek Fordjour
  You shouldn't be there too long. There's, like, a moment that-
9. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, yeah yeah
10. DFDerek Fordjour
  ... if you're like, "It's, it's been a while," y- you wanna look for a mirror.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  So it's diminishing returns, in a way.
12. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah.
13. TNTrevor Noah
  Like-
14. DFDerek Fordjour
  Like, there's a point where you're like, "If I stay in this-
15. TNTrevor Noah
  Uh-huh
16. DFDerek Fordjour
  ... it's not gonna get better." I'm sure you, like, write a joke and you're like, "That's too many words. I did too much to get there. You know? It's enough. Leave it." There's, like, a instinct, right?
17. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah. Mine, I think, is more, "Do I still feel this way?"
18. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah, that's the same thing.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah. That's, that's more mine. [upbeat music] My guest
0:55 – 3:00
Introduction to Derek Fordjour as a contemporary artist
1. TNTrevor Noah
  on today's podcast is someone I'm lucky enough to call a friend, and a human being who has achieved one of the hardest things in the world, which is becoming extremely successful and genre-defying in many ways as an artist. I always think about how crazy it must have been back in the days to be friends with someone like Picasso or Michelangelo or any of those people. And I, I'm not comparing artists, but for me, Derek Fordjour is the modern equivalent. He's an artist. He's a painter, a sculptor, one of my favorite people who's able to bring history, identity, and joy to life in a way that stops you in your tracks. We've known each other for a while now, and I've always been inspired by how deeply he sees the world and how beautifully he translates that onto the canvas. And so in this conversation, we get into how art messes with value in the best way, why all work is kind of a scam, and what it means to create beauty even when no one's buying it yet. I think you're really gonna walk away from this conversation with your mind spinning and hopefully your heart full, just like I always do. This is What Now? With Trevor Noah. [upbeat music] Rolling? All right. Derek Fordjour, what's going on, man?
2. DFDerek Fordjour
  Hello, Trevor.
3. TNTrevor Noah
  How are you gonna go and get a blocked nose when we're doing a podcast?
4. DFDerek Fordjour
  Bro, you both, you blow me up immediately about the nose.
5. TNTrevor Noah
  No, because you know why.
6. DFDerek Fordjour
  I'm self-conscious about it.
7. TNTrevor Noah
  No, but okay, let me explain. First of all, I apologize. I didn't know you were self-conscious about it. The, the reason I have to call it out is because some people will be hearing your voice for the first time.
8. DFDerek Fordjour
  That's true.
9. TNTrevor Noah
  Some people.
10. DFDerek Fordjour
  That's true, hopefully.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  And then they'll think that that's how you speak.
12. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah, I have a very different voice than what I have today.
13. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, yeah.
14. DFDerek Fordjour
  Right?
15. TNTrevor Noah
  So it's similar, but it's, I know you're
3:00 – 14:00
Exploring African identity and immigrant experiences
1. TNTrevor Noah
  nasally today.
2. DFDerek Fordjour
  You can tell, yeah.
3. TNTrevor Noah
  But you say you're not sick.
4. DFDerek Fordjour
  Well, I can't be sick. I can't. I'm an American.
5. TNTrevor Noah
  Let me tell you, I, I, I worked at The Daily Show, I was in the office for eight years, I hosted for seven years.
6. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah.
7. TNTrevor Noah
  No one ever admitted being sick.
8. DFDerek Fordjour
  The, the entire time.
9. TNTrevor Noah
  No one.
10. DFDerek Fordjour
  But wouldn't you say that's also, like, entertainment culture? Like, nobody wants to, like ... Like, uh, you, first of all, you're the boss. To each other-
11. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
12. DFDerek Fordjour
  ... do they admit it?
13. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, that's a good question, actually. I never con-
14. DFDerek Fordjour
  I'm just saying
15. TNTrevor Noah
  ... I never considered my position of power.
16. DFDerek Fordjour
  No, you don't, because you're such a man of the people.
17. TNTrevor Noah
  [laughs]
18. DFDerek Fordjour
  You just don't.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  I actually really never considered that.
20. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah, you don't think about that.
21. TNTrevor Noah
  No, you know what it also is? In So- it's because in South Africa, we don't really have that.
22. DFDerek Fordjour
  What, like ... Oh, the culture of-
23. TNTrevor Noah
  So ... Yeah, like in a, I think in a, in America more than most places, maybe in Europe actually, uh, to a certain extent, the hierarchy in an office place is respected in a different way.
24. DFDerek Fordjour
  Oh, it's true.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  So-
26. DFDerek Fordjour
  It's true
27. TNTrevor Noah
  ... managers don't realize that rooms move differently when they step into them.
28. DFDerek Fordjour
  Not at all.
29. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
30. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah.
14:00 – 30:00
Navigating professional spaces as a Black artist
1. TNTrevor Noah
  never done well.
2. DFDerek Fordjour
  Let me watch you deal with it.
3. TNTrevor Noah
  That's a-
4. DFDerek Fordjour
  Let me watch you deal with that
5. TNTrevor Noah
  I don't feel like there's ever been a time in history when that sentence has ended well.
6. DFDerek Fordjour
  But you have to experience the slave ca-
7. TNTrevor Noah
  Why?
8. DFDerek Fordjour
  Because first of all, I, I didn't know that you hadn't done this, so I'm even more convicted about it.
9. TNTrevor Noah
  I've been to slave castles, but I need to know why this one in particular.
10. DFDerek Fordjour
  Okay. Well, I think there's a moment, well, at least for me, where you go to the door of no return.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
12. DFDerek Fordjour
  And it's in all the castles.
13. TNTrevor Noah
  Oftentimes it'll be, like, the port, near the port-
14. DFDerek Fordjour
  That's right
15. TNTrevor Noah
  ... somewhere there.
16. DFDerek Fordjour
  That's right.
17. TNTrevor Noah
  They bring them in, and there's a little area where they're gonna get loaded onto a boat.
18. DFDerek Fordjour
  That's right.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  And that's the, the area of no return.
20. DFDerek Fordjour
  That's right.
21. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
22. DFDerek Fordjour
  So you got it.
23. TNTrevor Noah
  It's similar in, the one I went to was in Zanzibar.
24. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes. Yes.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  Very similar.
26. DFDerek Fordjour
  So first of all, I mean, the East African slave trade was different. Um, just as brutal, but, um, I think the dynamics are different east/west.
27. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm.
28. DFDerek Fordjour
  But there's always that moment in the castle where you stand between where you were and where you're going. And for me, when I stand there, I get it. I get the whole diaspora.
29. TNTrevor Noah
  Hm.
30. DFDerek Fordjour
  Like, I understand my experiences in Brazil, in Canada, you know, parts of Europe where there are Africans. Like, I get it. Like, we all came through that door.
30:00 – 48:00
The evolution of Black representation in the art world
1. DFDerek Fordjour
  Kinte- It was in the lexicon and the whole thing. And then years later, we found out that some of the details in that story were fabricated, that Alex Haley wrote.
2. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm.
3. DFDerek Fordjour
  Um, and so it wasn't all true. When it came out, it was like, "This is all true."
4. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, this is factual.
5. DFDerek Fordjour
  "This is factual, and I've ... " You know, and that was part of the strength of it. And then years later, we found out that some of it wasn't true, and it didn't matter because people needed a story.
6. TNTrevor Noah
  I think it also doesn't matter because all stories aren't true.
7. DFDerek Fordjour
  Exactly. History is itself a fabrication. I love your bit about, about nations and, um, anthems and-
8. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
9. DFDerek Fordjour
  ... you know, it's like it's all ... And so, I mean, I love both sides of that, that I knew it when it was factual-
10. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
11. DFDerek Fordjour
  ... and it was ... And then when it was something that was falsified, and it didn't matter. The power did not, the power of the story didn't change. The-
12. TNTrevor Noah
  How do you, how do you think that informs your art?
13. DFDerek Fordjour
  Well-
14. TNTrevor Noah
  'Cause I, 'cause I ... When I, when I think of your art, I, I think of you as a storyteller.
15. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah.
16. TNTrevor Noah
  And not in, like, a highfalutin way, by the way.
17. DFDerek Fordjour
  Mm-hmm.
18. TNTrevor Noah
  Like, let's, let's preface all of it by saying this. Yes, Derek Fordjour is easily considered by many, e- especially who, like, know what they're talking about, you're considered l- a luminary of the art world.
19. DFDerek Fordjour
  Oh, wow.
20. TNTrevor Noah
  No, you, you really are, and, and it's, it's not easy to get to the place that you've gotten to-
21. DFDerek Fordjour
  Well, thank you
22. TNTrevor Noah
  ... like, in, in the art world. It's also, let's be honest, five times harder to get there as a Black man, like randomly, like a Black person-
23. DFDerek Fordjour
  Like as everything
24. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, but-
25. DFDerek Fordjour
  As everything. Yeah
26. TNTrevor Noah
  ... yeah, but I think less so in the NBA. Let's put it that way.
27. DFDerek Fordjour
  Oh, Trevor, you say some of the wildest things.
28. TNTrevor Noah
  What are you talking about?
29. DFDerek Fordjour
  And it's totally appropriate.
30. TNTrevor Noah
  I'm saying there are some areas that are still way harder to get into-
48:00 – 1:03:00
The role of art as a "passive buff" to society
1. TNTrevor Noah
  I'm like, "Yo, what is happening right now? What is happening right now?"
2. SPSpeaker
  It's like-
3. TNTrevor Noah
  "Just enjoy it."
4. SPSpeaker
  It's being British. It's like the national pastime is to speak about the weather, so you're either complaining about it or you're happy about it. Those are the two states of emotion when it comes to the weather. So if you're-
5. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, but I find it, I find it's more, I find it's more the Brits are complaining about it, or they're complaining about how it normally is but it's not now. So you'll go, "This is nice." They're like, "Yeah, but it's not normally like this."
6. SPSpeaker
  Yeah. Oh, a nation of complainers.
7. TNTrevor Noah
  I don't know. I think it's lovely, and I'm enjoying myself. Well, that was today's We're in the World brought to you by Uber. Whether it's your best friend's wedding or your niece's first ballet recital, Uber is on their way, so you can show up for what matters most. Uber, on our way. [upbeat music] I'll often say to people, um, a- and I think I have this because comedy has been my profession.
8. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah.
9. TNTrevor Noah
  I often will say to people, all work is a scam.
10. DFDerek Fordjour
  I love this.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  Right? I'm not saying things that people do are scams, but I'm saying work.
12. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah.
13. TNTrevor Noah
  The word work.
14. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes.
15. TNTrevor Noah
  All work is a scam.
16. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah, yeah.
17. TNTrevor Noah
  Because the value of that work is merely assigned by those who have the resources.
18. DFDerek Fordjour
  It's arbitrary. That's right.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  It's all arbitrary.
20. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes.
21. TNTrevor Noah
  You know? So that's why I was smiling at the snowball thing.
22. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes.
23. TNTrevor Noah
  That's why I had that fit 'cause I'm like, "Oh, man, yeah, that..." A- and I try and explain this to people, and they go like, "No, no, no, but, but what about..." And I'm like, "Listen, I'm not trying to offend anybody."
24. DFDerek Fordjour
  Right.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  But almost all our jobs-
26. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes
27. TNTrevor Noah
  ... are fake.
28. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes, they are.
29. TNTrevor Noah
  Okay?
30. DFDerek Fordjour
  Absolutely.
1:03:00 – 1:11:00
Art's fundamental role in human society
1. TNTrevor Noah
  in with a little.
2. DFDerek Fordjour
  Right.
3. TNTrevor Noah
  And then we're making the show.
4. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes.
5. TNTrevor Noah
  Right?
6. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes.
7. TNTrevor Noah
  But I have a million ones-
8. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes
9. TNTrevor Noah
  ... and that's the relationship I have.
10. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  But you have one relationship with a, w- with a million.
12. DFDerek Fordjour
  Very true.
13. TNTrevor Noah
  Do you, do you get what I'm saying?
14. DFDerek Fordjour
  I 100% agree. The art world, in many ways, is not democratic.
15. TNTrevor Noah
  Uh-
16. DFDerek Fordjour
  'Cause what you, what you're explaining-
17. TNTrevor Noah
  Yes
18. DFDerek Fordjour
  ... is democratic.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  Yes, it is.
20. DFDerek Fordjour
  That's one-
21. TNTrevor Noah
  Yes
22. DFDerek Fordjour
  ... one, one woman, one-
23. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
24. DFDerek Fordjour
  ... one dollar.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  One vote.
26. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah, one vote.
27. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, that's exactly what it is.
28. DFDerek Fordjour
  One, that-
29. TNTrevor Noah
  One, one ticket, one vote.
30. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah.
1:11:00 – 1:23:00
Personal journey as a black artist
1. TNTrevor Noah
  a bus stop, you stand anywhere, any liminal space-
2. DFDerek Fordjour
  It's there
3. TNTrevor Noah
  ... that has no art.
4. DFDerek Fordjour
  Okay.
5. TNTrevor Noah
  Watch how much you don't feel.
6. DFDerek Fordjour
  Right.
7. TNTrevor Noah
  And it's a difficult thing to notice, because noticing absence, as you were saying earlier-
8. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah
9. TNTrevor Noah
  ... is, is extremely difficult.
10. DFDerek Fordjour
  It is hard.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  You know, it's very difficult to go-
12. DFDerek Fordjour
  To appreciate
13. TNTrevor Noah
  ... I'm noticing nothing, that nothing is here.
14. DFDerek Fordjour
  That, that's true. Yes, yes.
15. TNTrevor Noah
  Sometimes it's even difficult to notice what is there. But when you look at art, when art is, when you're not even, like, looking at it, right?
16. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah.
17. TNTrevor Noah
  It's doing things to you.
18. DFDerek Fordjour
  Oh, it is.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  So it's impossible to walk through the Sistine Chapel and not-
20. DFDerek Fordjour
  And be unaffected
21. TNTrevor Noah
  ... yeah, and not have, like, wonder.
22. DFDerek Fordjour
  It's not possible.
23. TNTrevor Noah
  You know, there's, the, the-
24. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes
25. TNTrevor Noah
  ... like, it doesn't matter what the painting is.
26. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes. No, it doesn't matter. It doesn't m- but it doesn't matter whether you know anything about it.
27. TNTrevor Noah
  You know, you, I, I, like, I don't even, I don't know anything-
28. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes
29. TNTrevor Noah
  ... about art.
30. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes.
1:23:00 – 1:38:00
Connection between art and comedy as forms of expression
1. TNTrevor Noah
  Right.
2. DFDerek Fordjour
  For sure.
3. TNTrevor Noah
  But they're laughing. Humans find something funny everywhere in the world.
4. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah.
5. TNTrevor Noah
  What I love is trying to figure out where their funny is and how my funny can intertwine with it. So I used to, and I still do in some ways, I used to envy American comedians-
6. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah
7. TNTrevor Noah
  ... because American comedians could go anywhere in the world-
8. DFDerek Fordjour
  Right
9. TNTrevor Noah
  ... and tell a joke the way they told it in America.
10. DFDerek Fordjour
  Because people know American culture.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  Because we, the world knows America.
12. DFDerek Fordjour
  Right.
13. TNTrevor Noah
  So they would go like, "Hey, man, so, ha, man, so I, uh, I voted for George Bush and, uh-"
14. DFDerek Fordjour
  Right
15. TNTrevor Noah
  ... "well, let me tell you something. Let me..." And the audience isn't like, "George Bush? Who?"
16. DFDerek Fordjour
  They're like, "Who? Who?" Right. Right.
17. TNTrevor Noah
  "Who is this George Bush?"
18. DFDerek Fordjour
  That's right. That's right. That's right.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  "What on earth are you talking about?"
20. DFDerek Fordjour
  That's right.
21. TNTrevor Noah
  "Who's George?"
22. DFDerek Fordjour
  That's right.
23. TNTrevor Noah
  No. Audience are like, "Keep going. Tell the joke."
24. DFDerek Fordjour
  Right.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  You know?
26. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah.
27. TNTrevor Noah
  But if, as a South African comedian, I would travel somewhere else in the world-
28. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah
29. TNTrevor Noah
  ... and then I would be like, "Oh, man. Oh, let me tell you, Julius Malema." Half the people are like, "What did you just say?"
30. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah. We don't know.
1:38:00 – 1:42:00
The impact of art on cultural narratives
1. TNTrevor Noah
  But beauty is layered.
2. DFDerek Fordjour
  Whereas you could be beautiful inside and out.
3. TNTrevor Noah
  Well, I think a lot of your paintings are beautiful on the outside-
4. DFDerek Fordjour
  [laughs]
5. TNTrevor Noah
  ... if people don't know what's on the inside.
6. DFDerek Fordjour
  [laughs]
7. TNTrevor Noah
  That's what I'm saying.
8. DFDerek Fordjour
  I'll take that.
9. TNTrevor Noah
  I'm s- no, but I'm serious, man.
10. DFDerek Fordjour
  I'll, I'll take that.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  And, like, for real, I, I think...
12. DFDerek Fordjour
  [laughs]
13. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, man, I, what I've always loved about your work is I cannot separate your work from you.
14. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yeah.
15. TNTrevor Noah
  Which in my world is a compliment.
16. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes, that's, now that's a high compliment.
17. TNTrevor Noah
  Um-
18. DFDerek Fordjour
  I love that. I worked hard to get there.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, man.
20. DFDerek Fordjour
  So thank you.
21. TNTrevor Noah
  Because, because I, I, I don't just enjoy the stories you tell. I enjoy them immensely, but I, I enjoy how you tell you in the art.
22. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes.
23. TNTrevor Noah
  Do you know what I mean?
24. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  I, I, I love that people get to know a little bit of you, people, and you get to tell people a little bit of us.
26. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes.
27. TNTrevor Noah
  You know? I, I, I love that, like, Africans have stories in your art.
28. DFDerek Fordjour
  Of course.
29. TNTrevor Noah
  I love that Black people have stories in your art.
30. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes, yes.
1:42:00 – 1:46:46
Discussion of art market origins and influence
1. TNTrevor Noah
  that while it is seen as the military powerhouse of the world, it is not considered the cultural powerhouse of the world.
2. DFDerek Fordjour
  This is true.
3. TNTrevor Noah
  Right?
4. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes, yes.
5. TNTrevor Noah
  So America starts going, "Okay, we gotta get culture out there. We gotta..."
6. DFDerek Fordjour
  Mm-hmm.
7. TNTrevor Noah
  And it's doing it in multiple ways.
8. DFDerek Fordjour
  Mm-hmm.
9. TNTrevor Noah
  Music and, you know, film is burgeoning-
10. DFDerek Fordjour
  Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh
11. TNTrevor Noah
  ... at that time, and it's growing. But the, the upper-minded echelons say, "Yes, but America will never have art."
12. DFDerek Fordjour
  Right.
13. TNTrevor Noah
  Right? Art is of Europe-
14. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes, it is
15. TNTrevor Noah
  ... of the sophisticated.
16. DFDerek Fordjour
  All the art in America, for good, was-
17. TNTrevor Noah
  And America is a young baby.
18. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes, yes, yes.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  And the story goes that the CIA is then tasked with creating-
20. DFDerek Fordjour
  Yes
21. TNTrevor Noah
  ... an art market, and so they, like, start telling people, "Just make shit, and we'll buy it."
22. DFDerek Fordjour
  Mm-hmm.
23. TNTrevor Noah
  And they go in, they buy it, they inflate the price.
24. DFDerek Fordjour
  Mm-hmm.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  They get galleries buying it. They get a market going.
26. DFDerek Fordjour
  Mm-hmm.
27. TNTrevor Noah
  It becomes this whole big thing. The story becomes the art. The art's blowing. It's burgeoning as well. And then the, the thing is created. Have you heard anything about this?
28. DFDerek Fordjour
  I tell you why I think that's complete BS, because it's great, it's great fun-
29. TNTrevor Noah
  It's a fantastic story
30. DFDerek Fordjour
  ... chat. I like it. I mean, for a dinner party, it's wonderful. I'd stand around and listen to it. Um, remember what we said before about the belief that human beings are encoded to create.