No One Told Trevor He Was Hosting the Grammys | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

Trevor Noah 0:00 [upbeat music] This is What Now? With Trevor Noah. [upbeat music]

Trevor Noah 0:16 How much time do we have with you?

Ben Winston 0:17 Um, as much as you want.

Trevor Noah 0:18 Oh, yes.

Ben Winston 0:18 It's my last thing of the day, man.

Trevor Noah 0:19 Oh, yes.

Ben Winston 0:21 Yeah. I was like, "Fuck it, let's go."

Trevor Noah 0:23 Do you wanna start with the Kanye, or should we go the other way around? [laughs]

Ben Winston 0:27 [laughs] Actually, I wanted to show you what I'm wearing underneath here. [laughs] Can you imagine? That would've been really funny if I turned up in, like, a fur coat and nothing underneath. It would've been a bit of a weird joke.

Trevor Noah 0:38 Actually, I, I actually do wanna start with the Kanye. So as the executive producer of the Grammys-

Ben Winston 0:45 Yeah

Trevor Noah 0:45 ... do you... Like, are you happy or are you pissed, or is there another emotion that comes with seeing Kanye West s- like, pop up on the Grammys red carpet when he wasn't supposed to be there? Like, is there, like, a thing that... No, 'cause-

Ben Winston 1:00 Hm

Trevor Noah 1:00 ... on o- on one hand, it's good for the show in a way, 'cause everyone's like, "Oh, shit, what's gonna happen? Oh, y- y-" And then on the other hand, it's like you have a preplanned thing. Like, what's your first emotion when that happens?

Ben Winston 1:09 Genuinely, honestly-

Trevor Noah 1:10 Yeah, yeah

Ben Winston 1:10 ... I couldn't care either way. Like, I, I, I, I was like, I think he's... Like, he's not for me.

Trevor Noah 1:16 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:17 And so, like, I was just like, "Oh, it's, you know, it's just what he does," right? He, he... But I, I genuinely didn't think about it. The, the truth of it is, during that red carpet, you know-

Trevor Noah 1:28 Yeah

Ben Winston 1:28 ... like, I am... That is, that is the most stressful period of, like, my year. That, that one hour, that, like, that 90 minutes-

Trevor Noah 1:36 'Cause that's the one hour leading into the show

Ben Winston 1:37 ... that's the 90 minutes where you finish a dress rehearsal, which went terribly-

Trevor Noah 1:41 Yeah

Ben Winston 1:41 ... and you finish that at, like, 2:40, and then the show goes live at 5:00. It's like that Lorne Michaels thing. He always says it, it doesn't matter when you're ready. The show goes live at 5:00, and it is what it is.

Trevor Noah 1:51 Uh-huh.

Ben Winston 1:52 So, like, there was the r- thing about Kanye, I genuinely didn't even see it till after the show. Honestly, I didn't.

Trevor Noah 1:57 Wow.

Ben Winston 1:57 Like, I, I, I knew there was a thing, and I knew he'd done, like, a stunt with his wife, and I was like, "Oh." I was like, "Is the cameras gonna work? Is the comms gonna work? Is the show gonna work?" Like, that's all I... Genuinely, that's all I was thinking about at that time. I was very in the zone, so I wasn't distracted.

Trevor Noah 2:12 Okay.

Ben Winston 2:12 But I knew he wasn't coming to the main show.

Trevor Noah 2:14 How did you know that?

Ben Winston 2:15 Because I'd heard, um, I'd heard that he was just coming to the red carpet and then leaving, and he didn't have a... I'm in, I'm in charge of the floor plan.

Trevor Noah 2:21 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 2:22 So like-

Trevor Noah 2:22 That's, well, that's what got me, 'cause I know-

Ben Winston 2:24 Yeah

Trevor Noah 2:24 ... where everyone's gonna be sitting, and I didn't see Kanye. Then for a moment I thought you didn't tell me Kanye was coming 'cause you wanted to surprise me. [laughs]

Ben Winston 2:32 I don't know if anyone knew Kanye was coming, but I think, I d- but there was no truth, genuinely no truth to him being kicked out. Like, I, that's just not true. He, he went and did the carpet, and as far as I understand it, he then got in a car and left.

Trevor Noah 2:42 Huh.

Ben Winston 2:43 I don't know-

Trevor Noah 2:43 But did he tell people he was coming?

Ben Winston 2:45 I don't know. Genuinely, I don't know.

Trevor Noah 2:46 Huh.

Ben Winston 2:46 You'd have to ask the, the Academy.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:48 I suppose in theory, there's no way to stop him from coming, so-

Trevor Noah 2:51 Well-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:51 ... if he came as Jay-Z's guest-

Trevor Noah 2:53 But he was nominated, right?

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:53 ... for example, right?

Trevor Noah 2:55 Was he nominated?

Ben Winston 2:55 That's true. That's true.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:55 Yeah, if he comes, if he comes as Jay-Z's guest-

Trevor Noah 2:58 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:58 ... Ben Cahn then say, "Hey, dude, you're not welcome here."

Ben Winston 3:01 Yeah, that's right, if you're a plus one. That's true. That's a very good point, because I never know the plus ones. So you know that, like-

Sizwe Dhlomo 3:06 Yeah

Ben Winston 3:07 ... Madison Beer is sat over here. She may know who bringing-

Sizwe Dhlomo 3:10 But you don't just bring Kanye.

Trevor Noah 3:10 Yeah, because last year she may be with Kanye West.

Ben Winston 3:12 Yeah. [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 3:13 Last year Jay-Z came with Uzi, right? So it could have been.

Ben Winston 3:17 Yeah, but you said that, but then, but then people... You're right. You don't know, and people show up with famous people, and then suddenly they're on camera. Like, you didn't know they were coming, and it's like, oh, they're there with, you know, whoever.

Trevor Noah 3:27 I think this was the most dramatic red carpet we've had at the Grammys, like, in the years that we've done it together.

Ben Winston 3:32 Uh-huh.

Trevor Noah 3:33 Because we, like, this was the year where Kanye steps onto the Grammy, then immediately people were... There's every opinion, right? So some people were going, "How can the Grammys allow this? There are children there. Now there's a naked woman on the red carpet. My children" There's always the children. I'm always like, there's, you know, "The children are there. The children. The children." Uh, so that's what the people were saying. And then, um, I don't know if you saw any

Trevor Noah 3:55 of these, actually, 'cause you're so wrapped up in the show.

Ben Winston 3:57 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 3:57 But then there was also-

Ben Winston 3:58 I saw part of it afterwards.

Trevor Noah 3:59 Yeah, yeah. Then there was the Babyface...

Ben Winston 4:01 Oh, yes, I saw that.

Sizwe Dhlomo 4:01 Oh, I did see that.

Trevor Noah 4:02 You see that, right?

Ben Winston 4:03 I did see that.

Sizwe Dhlomo 4:03 Yes. Yes.

Trevor Noah 4:03 Yeah, the-

Ben Winston 4:04 Yeah, I did see that

Trevor Noah 4:04 ... two AP reporters or whatever they were, were interviewing-

Ben Winston 4:06 Chappell?

Trevor Noah 4:07 Yeah, they're interviewing Babyface. Mid-conversation-

Ben Winston 4:09 Yeah

Trevor Noah 4:10 ... they're just like, "Argh."

Ben Winston 4:12 You know what? I only actually saw that well afterwards because Khloé Kardashian tweeted about it. She posted the video going-

Trevor Noah 4:19 Oh, damn

Ben Winston 4:19 ... "Babyface is a legend. How dare you?" And the first thing I thought is, and Babyface is a mate of mine.

Trevor Noah 4:24 Yeah.

Ben Winston 4:24 Like, I love Babyface. Like, he's, like, not only is a l- he a legend and an icon and a music aficionado, he's also one of the nicest men-

Trevor Noah 4:31 He actually is.

Ben Winston 4:32 He, no, he's genuine. There was no-

Sizwe Dhlomo 4:33 Even how he handled that was amazing.

Trevor Noah 4:35 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 4:35 Oh, my God.

Trevor Noah 4:36 Yeah.

Ben Winston 4:36 He's full of love and praise.

Trevor Noah 4:37 Yeah.

Ben Winston 4:38 I love being around him. Like, I, I find him an ins- I find him an inspiring dude just from his, like-

Trevor Noah 4:42 Yes

Ben Winston 4:42 ... manner. And, but I felt sorry for those reporters. I actually did, because it's like, it's like the culture that we're in right now, where, like, they, they're red carpet reporters on AP. They're not Trevor Noah hosting the Grammys.

Trevor Noah 4:55 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 4:55 They don't have 10,000 hours of experience. They're on a thing. They probably don't know the story and the history of Babyface's commitment to music, and then Chappell Roan, who is one of the biggest stars, they don't... They know Chappell Roan better than they'd ever know Babyface, and they're like, "Oh, d- don't" And they know that they're gonna get more bang for their buck there.

Trevor Noah 5:12 Yeah.

Ben Winston 5:12 I'm not being disrespectful to Babyface. Of course they handled it badly-

Trevor Noah 5:15 No, but I think, but I think it's also why he said-

Ben Winston 5:16 ... but I hate the way society turns on them

Trevor Noah 5:17 ... "Do you want that?" Like he-

Ben Winston 5:19 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 5:19 Yeah

Trevor Noah 5:19 ... he's so sweet. That man has been in the game since when?

Sizwe Dhlomo 5:22 Yeah.

Ben Winston 5:22 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 5:22 He knows every red carpet. He knows every p-

Ben Winston 5:25 Hm

Trevor Noah 5:25 ... he knows what the game is about. So he, to your point, he didn't even... He, he had no ego in the way he did it. He was like, "Oh, you guys need that, don't you?"

Ben Winston 5:33 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 5:33 And he's like, "I'm on my way." He's like, "I stopped to talk to you because you need this."

Ben Winston 5:36 Yeah. [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 5:36 Yes.

Trevor Noah 5:36 And now he's like, "I get that you need that."

Ben Winston 5:38 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 5:38 But you c- I think it, what it was is this: He doesn't need it.

Ben Winston 5:41 No, he doesn't.

Sizwe Dhlomo 5:41 Yeah, he doesn't.

Trevor Noah 5:42 So he wasn't offended in any way, and he was like, "Oh, whatever." He's like, "I don't need this."

Ben Winston 5:46 I agree. I just wish people didn't immediately, like, go out to find who those two girls are, and then let's, let's just make their life miserable.

Trevor Noah 5:52 Hey, man, but that's, it's just like, "Argh."

Ben Winston 5:53 You just wish the internet doesn't exist.

Trevor Noah 5:54 Yeah, I guess so. [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 5:54 Well, in all fairness, I do need a certain... I think there's, like, a certain amount of accountability that they need to be held to

Ben Winston 6:02 What? It's a red carpet

Trevor Noah 6:04 Well-

Ben Winston 6:04 No one even needed to see it. No one would have known about it. Why does everyone need to be so offended all the time?

Trevor Noah 6:08 No, but-

Ben Winston 6:08 It's fine

Trevor Noah 6:08 ... okay, okay, I'll, I'll sh-

Sizwe Dhlomo 6:09 On his behalf, I see why people are offended.

Ben Winston 6:11 Oh, but if he wasn't, he said straight afterwards, he said, "I didn't care less."

Trevor Noah 6:13 Yes.

Ben Winston 6:14 He'd be embarrassed by this whole thing.

Trevor Noah 6:15 Yes. I think it's a, it's a tough lesson for them to l- like, the way they're learning the lesson, if they had a good producer, someone would just say like, "Don't do it like that again."

Ben Winston 6:23 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 6:23 "Next time, rope the person in. Oh, my God, it's Chappell Roan. Babyface, do you know Chappell Roan?"

Ben Winston 6:27 That's kind of how it is.

Trevor Noah 6:28 "Oh, Chappell, have you ever-

Ben Winston 6:29 That's how you do it

Trevor Noah 6:29 ... Man. Oh, legend, old school legend, new sch- oh, man. Chappell, you've-

Sizwe Dhlomo 6:32 That's why he gets the big bucks

Trevor Noah 6:33 ... you have to, you have to work with Babyf- you two should do a thing." And then you get those magic moments as well on the carpet where it's like now you've got Babyface and Chappell Roan.

Ben Winston 6:39 Whoever saw that coming?

Trevor Noah 6:40 And then she might go, "I'm a huge fan of this song."

Ben Winston 6:42 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 6:42 And he's like, "What? I didn't know." She's like, "Yeah, the way you remixed that, the thing you did with Mariah Carey on that song, oh, it inspired me to sing that." That could have been a moment.

Ben Winston 6:49 That's why they pay him the big bucks.

Sizwe Dhlomo 6:51 But this is actually-

Ben Winston 6:52 Which we, we saw a lesson in hosting there.

Sizwe Dhlomo 6:53 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 6:54 [laughs]

Ben Winston 6:54 We saw a lesson in h- I thought I was coming to What Now? I'm actually coming to masterclass.

Sizwe Dhlomo 6:59 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 6:59 [laughs]

Ben Winston 7:00 I'm coming to masterclass with Trevor Noah.

Trevor Noah 7:02 Oh, this guy. I can't even. [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 7:04 I was gonna say, this is actually the issue, though, with a lot of the, I s- I'll say podcast culture or the people that end up broadcasting without putting in the 10,000 hours, right?

Trevor Noah 7:14 Mm-hmm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 7:15 Because back in the day, if you ended up with any kind of a platform, you would have done things like a small television station or whatever it is.

Trevor Noah 7:22 That's actually true.

Sizwe Dhlomo 7:22 And you get to the point where-

Trevor Noah 7:23 Yeah, that's true

Sizwe Dhlomo 7:24 ... you know how to deal with the red carpet moments, which is largely unscripted, anything happens. Now, what you end up with is people that obviously have a very, very strong following, but they haven't got the experience behind them to be able to know to do something like that.

Trevor Noah 7:37 Yeah.

Ben Winston 7:37 Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm confused. We're talking about two girls who are hosting for AP-

Trevor Noah 7:42 Yeah

Ben Winston 7:42 ... live on a red carpet at the Grammys.

Trevor Noah 7:44 Yeah.

Ben Winston 7:44 That's not, they're not hosting the Oscars here.

Trevor Noah 7:46 No, but I get-

Ben Winston 7:47 Like, they're, they're-

Trevor Noah 7:47 But Sizwe's right, though.

Ben Winston 7:48 No, no, no, but-

Trevor Noah 7:48 This is their experience. No, but Sizwe, no, but here's where Sizwe's right. Back in the day, you couldn't even get to the AP hosting on the red carpet-

Sizwe Dhlomo 7:55 Yeah

Trevor Noah 7:55 ... without having, like-

Ben Winston 7:56 No way

Trevor Noah 7:57 ... no way.

Sizwe Dhlomo 7:57 It's easy.

Trevor Noah 7:57 You know what, you know where you see this actually is with stand-up comedy now today, right? There are comedy clubs around the country, like the US particularly, and some in the world, where they've started hiring people who are funny on TikTok, and then they come to the comedy club. Their fans come, they pack it up, and then 10 minutes in, everyone realizes no one was prepared for this moment.

Sizwe Dhlomo 8:17 Mm.

Trevor Noah 8:17 Like, the, the TikTok comedian doesn't know how to make the people laugh-

Sizwe Dhlomo 8:20 Yeah

Trevor Noah 8:20 ... or doesn't know how to shift with the room. The room doesn't know what to do, and then club owners started booking backup acts for the TikTok stars because they knew that red carpet thing would happen to them in the clubs. So I hear what you're saying.

Ben Winston 8:32 No, I see.

Trevor Noah 8:32 But I also get what you're saying.

Ben Winston 8:34 It's fair.

Trevor Noah 8:34 It's not like they shot Babyface-

Ben Winston 8:35 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 8:35 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 8:36 ... is what I'm saying.

Ben Winston 8:36 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 8:37 No, no, no. Let's be honest.

Ben Winston 8:38 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 8:38 We're also making it seem like-

Ben Winston 8:39 Yeah

Trevor Noah 8:39 ... what they did, we made it seem like, like there were some people online who were like, "Babyface, you p- I can't believe, all the work..." They made it seem like Babyface, like, dragged himself down the carpet-

Ben Winston 8:48 Yeah, exactly

Trevor Noah 8:48 ... still bleeding-

Ben Winston 8:49 It is

Trevor Noah 8:49 ... from the wound they had inflicted upon him.

Ben Winston 8:51 It's difficult, and it's difficult on live, and it's like, ugh. And I got it. They knew that they were gonna get more hits if they managed to get Chappell. Then, and Chappell's not hanging around. Chappell's not gonna go, and I don't mean anything about Chappell, but she's not gonna go, "Oh, I'll sit here for six minutes-"

Trevor Noah 9:04 No, she's not

Ben Winston 9:04 ... "while you finish with Babyface." She's on, and you've either got to get her or you don't.

Trevor Noah 9:07 Yeah, no, I get it.

Ben Winston 9:07 So I get it. But you're right. The way they should have done it would be the collab.

Trevor Noah 9:10 Yeah, I think this is, like-

Ben Winston 9:10 Yeah

Trevor Noah 9:10 ... a, a swag that-

Ben Winston 9:11 Yeah

Trevor Noah 9:11 ... to your point, would come from experience.

Trevor Noah 9:13 Um, I wonder what would have happened if Kanye came in. I'm not gonna lie. I kept on wondering what would have happened.

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:20 Inside the venue?

Trevor Noah 9:21 Yeah.

Ben Winston 9:22 Oof.

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:23 Nothing would have ha-

Trevor Noah 9:24 Like, would he-

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:24 Well, nothing would have happened

Trevor Noah 9:25 ... would he have done something? No.

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:25 Yes.

Trevor Noah 9:25 What I mean is like-

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:26 He most likely would have done something

Trevor Noah 9:27 ... so you think he would have come on stage?

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:28 100%. And I'll tell you why. Whenever there's been a big moment and Kanye knows that he can seize it, he will.

Trevor Noah 9:36 Mm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:37 Funny enough, MTV Awards, I don't even know what year it was, when he stepped on stage and Justice versus Simeon won the video for Video of the Year.

Trevor Noah 9:46 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:47 And he had, what's that? "Da, da, da, da, da, da."

Trevor Noah 9:52 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:53 Anyway.

Trevor Noah 9:53 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 9:53 That video. He had that video nominated. He steps on stage, and he goes, "Man, this video cost a million dollars, fam. I had Nia Long in this." So whenever there's a moment that he can seize for attention-

Trevor Noah 10:05 He does it, yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 10:06 ... he, yeah. Now, obviously that was a long time ago. Maybe he's a different man now.

Trevor Noah 10:10 Well, I don't think so. He, like, seized the red carpet.

Sizwe Dhlomo 10:12 Yes.

Ben Winston 10:13 How would you have coped if he was in the room? How would you have felt, honestly, if he was in the room, knowing that he was there, knowing that there's an unpredictability around you at those tables? Because you're vulnerable.

Trevor Noah 10:21 Okay. Okay, so, so-

Ben Winston 10:22 Because you're not... Most hosts-

Trevor Noah 10:23 Yeah

Ben Winston 10:24 ... are on a stage.

Trevor Noah 10:24 Yes.

Ben Winston 10:25 They're away from people.

Trevor Noah 10:25 Yeah, yeah. They're not amongst the people.

Ben Winston 10:27 You, well, you are right in amongst it.

Trevor Noah 10:27 Okay. So two th- one, he's very unpredictable, but I have met Kanye.

Ben Winston 10:32 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 10:33 And post me and Kanye having a thing, and can I tell you, he was very sweet. He was very nice. He had a cordial conversation. And one of the, one of the things about Kanye that I think a lot of people don't know is even when he has his, like, s- you know, when he, when he spins and when he's going through something, whatever it might be, bipolar or not, Kanye West loves comedy.

Ben Winston 10:51 Mm.

Trevor Noah 10:52 Like, loves comedy and loves telling jokes. And if you listen to his raps, you know how much he loves telling jokes. He's got some of the best punchlines in his raps. But when he tweets them, I think a lot of them don't come off well. And comedy, as we all know, you miss.

Ben Winston 11:06 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 11:06 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 11:07 You know what I mean? Comedy's about misses. So, so the first part I'll say is this: I wouldn't be afraid, but I would be worried for the show and what's gonna happen, 'cause now is Kanye gonna go up, uh, when Taylor's up again now? I- is K- is Kanye gonna... 'Cause now I'm the person who's in the room, and then now I go... You know, you don't want Kanye West getting tackled by a security guard, but you also don't want to be the security guard.

Ben Winston 11:31 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 11:31 So I, I don't know what it would be. I think I would, I would have... And then on a night when we're there, and half the room, I would say even three-quarters of the room, has, like, a strange, morose feeling to them-

Ben Winston 11:42 Mm

Trevor Noah 11:42 ... that's not the night you want unpredictability.

Ben Winston 11:45 No.

Sizwe Dhlomo 11:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 11:46 Do you know what I mean? 'Cause I don't know about you, but, like, this, this Grammys emotionally was the hardest Grammys I've ever done.

Ben Winston 11:52 Mm. Yeah. I mean, for sure. That's... Look, Kayne- the Kanye thing is, look, for me, I would have, I, I, I, y- I would have done everything we ca- I, I don't know. I h-

Trevor Noah 12:02 Would you have cut to him or cut away from him?

Ben Winston 12:04 I, I c- I'm not gonna talk on him and the Grammys either way. Luckily, I didn't even know about it 'cause I was too busy, but I'm ne- I'm, like, I'm not gonna go out of my way, going, "Oh, let's clear a table. Let's get rid of one of the nominees-

Trevor Noah 12:13 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay

Ben Winston 12:13 ... in the jazz category-

Trevor Noah 12:14 That makes sense

Ben Winston 12:14 ... to give Ye a table." I'm not... But if, it's, it's up to the Academy anyway. It's nothing to do with me.

Trevor Noah 12:19 I think people would have been stressed in the room

Ben Winston 12:21 But it was, but moving from that, it was a very different atmosphere because people didn't know how they were supposed to feel.

Trevor Noah 12:29 Yeah.

Ben Winston 12:29 And it was a really

Ben Winston 12:30 weird one because everybody's there, and you won them over in a big way, and so did the show, and I feel really good about that. And the response that we've had from it, I don't know if you read reviews-

Trevor Noah 12:40 I don't

Ben Winston 12:40 ... but, like, so the r-

Trevor Noah 12:41 No, I don't

Ben Winston 12:42 So Vanity Fair, Variety, Hollywood Reporter all say without question best Grammys of all time. Like, they're really going wild of it. And I do think that's because you got the balance really well.

Trevor Noah 12:50 No, I th-

Ben Winston 12:50 But it was-

Trevor Noah 12:51 I think the, I think the show-

Ben Winston 12:52 ... incredibly tricky for sure because-

Trevor Noah 12:54 Yeah

Ben Winston 12:54 ... people don't know whether, is this supposed to be a sad event? Is it a happy event? Are we dancing or are we crying? Are we giving-

Trevor Noah 12:59 Yeah

Ben Winston 12:59 ... or are we taking? [laughs] Like, and it was-

Trevor Noah 13:02 Yeah

Ben Winston 13:02 ... very, it was a weird dance for you to have to do. But you knew that.

Trevor Noah 13:04 Yeah, but I think, no, but I, but I think for all of us, so, okay, like, to your point, we, you know, everything is happening in relation to everything else. That's life, right? So now you're in Los Angeles, where everyone, you forget six degrees of separation. Everyone either lost a home or knows someone who lost a home. So it's as simple as that.

Ben Winston 13:24 That's true.

Trevor Noah 13:25 You start, you just start with that, right? So you've got the room full of people. But now what I realized as the night was going was we're also in a moment where the majority of the people in that room are also feeling a certain kind of way. So Lady Gaga, if it was any other year, would've just been like, "Fun times. Thank you very much." And then Lady Gaga goes, "Yo, trans people are not invisible."

Ben Winston 13:44 Mm.

Trevor Noah 13:44 Then you're like, "Oh, shit, yes. Trump said the thing."

Ben Winston 13:47 Mm.

Trevor Noah 13:47 And this is on Gaga's mind, and she, you know. And then you think that's done. And then Chappell Roan comes up. She wins the award. She doesn't just go like, "What a good time."

Ben Winston 13:55 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 13:55 "I love life. Wow, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a new artist. I'm the best." No. She goes, "Let me tell you how shit it is being an artist who doesn't make money."

Ben Winston 14:03 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 14:03 "And what actually happens on the other side or the, you know, before the precursor to success. You can't afford anything. You don't know what your life's gonna be. And you don't have healthcare."

Ben Winston 14:11 Yep.

Trevor Noah 14:12 "And if you don't have healthcare in America, you're screwed." You know what I mean? So now in a way, she's touching on, like, the Luigi Mangione of it all. And people are like, "Oh yeah, healthcare. We're screwed in this country."

Ben Winston 14:21 Mm.

Trevor Noah 14:21 And then-

Ben Winston 14:22 Alicia with the, with the, uh-

Trevor Noah 14:23 Then, yeah, then Doechii gets on.

Ben Winston 14:24 Oh, yeah. Doechii.

Trevor Noah 14:25 And then Doechii goes, "It's a celebratory thing." But then Doechii gives you a reminder. She's like, "Yo, if you're a dark-skinned Black woman, you are seen as aggressive, you are seen as wrong, you are seen as loud, and you..." So again, people are cheering, but they're like, "Oh yeah, shit, what a ch-" And then Alicia Keys comes on and she goes, "Hey, we do need diversity. We want everyone in the same room. We want people together. We wanna create." So you realize that everyone walked into a room with something on their minds other than awards and music, which is rare

Trevor Noah 14:55 for the awards and music. Like, the last time I think this probably happened was maybe when Kobe died.

Ben Winston 15:00 Mm.

Trevor Noah 15:00 Right? And then we weren't doing the Grammys that ti- but it was, like, literally night before the Grammys or the day of or something. It's like-

Ben Winston 15:06 No, I was actually, I was funnily enough involved in that Grammys.

Trevor Noah 15:08 You were involved in that one?

Ben Winston 15:09 Yeah, so I had been given the job that I have now. I was given the job as executive producer of the Grammys.

Trevor Noah 15:14 Oh, damn.

Ben Winston 15:14 But what I said is I, I, I wanted to go for a year and not be number one. So I went and I was the pr- I was a producer on that show-

Trevor Noah 15:23 Oh, wow

Ben Winston 15:23 ... sha- essentially being, like, the number two on it, shadowing Ken Ehrlich, who was the producer, because I wanted to know, like, how to do it, because that's a beast of a show.

Trevor Noah 15:30 Yeah, it's massive.

Ben Winston 15:31 And I didn't ... And also, you can't just get the job and your first time being the producer of it is being the, like, showrunner of it.

Trevor Noah 15:36 Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

Ben Winston 15:37 So I went for two years. I did the Alicia Keys one because they had penciled me-

Trevor Noah 15:41 Oh

Ben Winston 15:41 ... and they, they knew that I was gonna be it, so.

Trevor Noah 15:43 Okay, got it.

Ben Winston 15:43 I mean, listen, if somebody says, "Oh, you're gonna go and, like, help out the producers at the Grammys and you're taking this thing over, you're gonna go." So it was the morning of, it was just before the dress run started.

Trevor Noah 15:54 Right.

Ben Winston 15:54 It was 10:00 in the morning, we heard, and I went into Alicia's dressing room and I sat with her and I said, "Listen, just so you know, we just heard the news that Kobe's died." And she was totally shocked. And I think she had the idea that we should go and find Boyz to Men and see, because they were in the building for some reason. Maybe they were nominated or whatever.

Trevor Noah 16:09 Right, right, right.

Ben Winston 16:10 And so we had that idea, and then I had the idea to black out all the other shirts.

Trevor Noah 16:14 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 16:14 Because, you know, in the rafters.

Trevor Noah 16:15 In the rafters, yes.

Ben Winston 16:16 And so we did a shot of that. But it was, it was Ken Ehrlich was exec producer, but I, I was there that day. But you're right, it was one of the ... But it seems like with the Grammys, well before our time, Whitney dies, then-

Trevor Noah 16:26 Yeah, they call it the Grammys curse

Ben Winston 16:27 ... I mean, Whitney dies and then it happens.

Trevor Noah 16:29 Uh-huh.

Ben Winston 16:29 We've had, we've had Kobe-

Trevor Noah 16:31 Uh-huh

Ben Winston 16:31 ... in the house that he built at Staples Center.

Trevor Noah 16:34 Mm-hmm.

Ben Winston 16:34 Obviously, we did two during COVID, then we had the fires this time. It's always a lot to handle.

Trevor Noah 16:38 Yeah.

Ben Winston 16:38 It's always a lot to handle. But then you're used to that in a way because you went on television every night with The Daily Show, and you would have a script that would be funny, and then you'd have to chuck it out because there'd be a shooting somewhere. So didn't that give you the, like, the experience of doing that? Or do you just think it's so different because it's a one-off event like that?

Trevor Noah 16:55 Okay, so it's similar in some ways, and then in other ways it's, it's, it's a lot harder and a lot different. And I'll, I'll, I'll tell you, I'll tell you. So l- let's take a break and then right after that I'll, I'll explain what I mean. [upbeat music] We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break. [upbeat music] Doing The Daily Show, and you, you understand this feeling, because you were doing The Late Late Show with Corden.

Ben Winston 17:25 I was.

Trevor Noah 17:27 One of the worst days, not just for the show, but for people, was whenever there was a mass tragedy.

Ben Winston 17:31 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 17:31 You know? Which would unfortunately happen all too often in America, so it would be mass shooting, mass shooting, mass shooting. This happened.

Ben Winston 17:37 Mm.

Trevor Noah 17:37 You know what, it was always something like that. And those days were tough. However, the Grammys is exponentially tougher because everyone coming to The Daily Show was coming to engage in Trevor Noah's opinion-

Ben Winston 17:53 Mm

Trevor Noah 17:53 ... of the world.

Ben Winston 17:55 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 17:55 Or the show's processing of the world with the correspondents and everyone else. And you ... So it's, it's, it was like, in a weird way, it's like we're all coming to the same church. We all have the same religion, and now we're just gonna process what has happened to us as people, right? And this year, like, I realized it more than most years. The Grammys is the perfect coming together of strangers, and it's something we don't have in society anymore. Right? You have someone walking to the building who lives in Miami full time. They're only here because their record label or their company brought them or... But they live in Miami. You've got someone who comes from London. You got somebody who comes in from Finland, and they're, like, an engineer, and they're phenomenal, but, like, nobody knows them except in the music industry. You got people from New York. You got, you got people from every-

Ben Winston 18:40 Nashville has a whole-

Trevor Noah 18:40 Yeah, Nashville has a whole contingency, right?

Ben Winston 18:42 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 18:43 But then you even break it up about amongst, like, genres and ideas. You know, there's a joke. You saw the joke I made at the top when I go, like, "Mustard!"

Ben Winston 18:51 That's the best.

Trevor Noah 18:51 And then I was like, "Ask your Black friends," because I know the whole p- chunk of the room is like, "What was that?"

Ben Winston 18:56 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 18:57 Like, "What, what was that?" Or, "What is happening here?"

Ben Winston 19:00 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 19:01 And its difficulty is, I think, the thing that makes it beautiful. It's like it, it comes with a precariousness, but I also enjoy the fact that somebody who only listens to hip hop is now gonna hear a country artist for the first time. Somebody who only listens to pop is gonna hear a rock artist for the first time. Somebody... I think there's a greater cross-pollination of fans in music at the Grammys than in any other instance 'cause, 'cause when else are you forced, in a good way, to engage in somebody else's ideas? Now, for me as the host, it becomes extra hard because comedy is extremely subjective.

Ben Winston 19:35 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 19:36 And comedy is, like... People also have to come for comedy. Some people have come to the Grammys-

Ben Winston 19:41 Hmm

Trevor Noah 19:41 ... or they're even, like, watching on TV, and then they're like, "Yeah, get done with this." Uh, um, I'm-

Ben Winston 19:44 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 19:45 ... I'm here for Beyoncé.

Ben Winston 19:46 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 19:46 "Who is this guy? Yabba, yabba, yabba, yabba."

Ben Winston 19:48 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 19:48 "Come on, come on, come on, come on. Get the..." And I know this. I know this as well.

Ben Winston 19:51 Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 19:51 You know, that's, that's the job of the host. You're, like, moving things along, right? But it becomes harder because it's not a funeral, but there's been huge devastation. It's not a comedy show, but people do wanna laugh.

Ben Winston 20:04 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 20:05 You know, it, it, it's an awards show, but it's also a, a, a somber night in many ways. It's all these things are happening, so it's much harder. 'Cause with The Daily Show, at the end of the day, I would go, "You're at The Daily Show. I'm at The Daily Show. Welcome to The Daily Show."

Ben Winston 20:19 And it's about The Daily Show.

Trevor Noah 20:22 Let me-

Ben Winston 20:22 It's like-

Trevor Noah 20:22 Let me tell you when I-

Ben Winston 20:23 ... about the news

Trevor Noah 20:23 ... let me tell you when I knew how different the Grammys was. This isn't, like, a long ago story. Four or five weeks ago, I was in a restaurant in New York. I was having, like, lunch or something, and the manager of the restaurant walked over and went, "Hey, Trevor, congratulations on hosting the Grammys. What an amazing... Wow, this is gonna be great for you and your career." I was like, "Thank you."

Ben Winston 20:46 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 20:46 And then he's like, "Man, are, are you nervous, like, doing this for the first time? It's gonna be crazy." And I paused, and I was like, "Ah." And then the person I was having the, the lunch with, [laughs] very sweet, but he leaned in. He's like, "What? It's not his first time. It's his second time." [laughs]

Ben Winston 21:02 [laughs] That's funny.

Trevor Noah 21:05 And that's when I realized that, like... And not even realized. I've, I've always known this. The Grammys is not about me, nor am I... You know me. I'm not trying to make it about me.

Ben Winston 21:13 No.

Trevor Noah 21:13 I'm trying to keep the show moving, and I'm trying to stitch things together, but there are people who are coming for their person.

Ben Winston 21:20 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 21:20 And if their person's not there, they're not coming.

Ben Winston 21:21 Hmm. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 21:22 So they're a fan of this artist.

Ben Winston 21:24 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 21:24 If the artist is not there, they're not watching, you know? And so I am just this random person who pops into people's lives-

Ben Winston 21:31 Yeah

Trevor Noah 21:31 ... and tries to stitch together an incoherent group of people that you, in my opinion, and I'll, I'll say this to you before we forget, masterfully put it together. This... I, I've been to, I've been to five Grammys now. Let me tell you something, Ben. The way you stitch... Like, just, like, the best new artists. You know, everyone going from Benson Boone, you know, going over to Doechii, uh, going over to, uh, Teddy Swims, going over to Raye. Yo.

Ben Winston 21:58 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 21:59 Like, even that is, that, that's hard because it's all different people doing different things, and yet you created a cohesive vibe.

Ben Winston 22:07 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 22:07 That, that's, that's what keeps bringing me back to the Grammys.

Ben Winston 22:09 Well, a couple of things. Firstly, um, I... It's, it's really funny that you say that 'cause the... When you say about the show and how difficult it is for you going, "Well, people are here for different reasons"-

Trevor Noah 22:19 Yeah

Ben Winston 22:19 ... I think about that in the way I program this show all the time because I'm perfectly aware that, like, Auntie Marilyn in Nebraska-

Trevor Noah 22:26 Yeah

Ben Winston 22:26 ... does not wanna watch Doechii, and in the same way that, like, someone who loves Doechii is not interested in Lainey Wilson.

Trevor Noah 22:32 Yeah.

Ben Winston 22:32 It's like... So that's partly why we've done as much as we can to, like, make the show something for everybody-

Trevor Noah 22:38 I would-

Ben Winston 22:39 ... in with, like, the videos that we explain who everybody is-

Trevor Noah 22:41 But I would even, I would-

Ben Winston 22:42 ... and we really try to tell stories

Trevor Noah 22:42 ... I would even interject and say it's not that they don't want to. They don't know that they want to.

Ben Winston 22:46 They don't know it. Yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 22:47 But you-

Ben Winston 22:47 But we try and make it, like, a show that everybody will enjoy from beginning to end. I think you under... I, I think you undermine... Not undermine. That's the wrong word. I think you underserve the purpose that you have in that show. Um, and, and, and, like, Corden, I, I got involved in the Grammys because of James Corden, so obviously I was his... I'm, I am his partner, and I was his showrunner for Late Late Show with Rob. And he-

Trevor Noah 23:09 Business partner, by the way. Not married.

Ben Winston 23:11 Yeah, we're not married. We're not married. Uh, I do-

Trevor Noah 23:12 No, no, 'cause people... No, no, 'cause-

Ben Winston 23:13 You're right

Trevor Noah 23:14 ... people say words that mean other things all the time.

Ben Winston 23:16 You're right.

Trevor Noah 23:16 And then somebody will be like, "Wow, James Corden's married to this guy?"

Ben Winston 23:18 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 23:18 "I didn't know. I didn't know James Corden was even gay."

Ben Winston 23:20 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 23:20 And then, then it's a whole thing.

Ben Winston 23:22 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 23:22 And then it's like, it's like when Kendrick said-

Ben Winston 23:23 Very successful couple

Trevor Noah 23:24 ... when Kendrick said, "My aunt transitioned"-

Ben Winston 23:26 Powered couple

Trevor Noah 23:27 ... "a few days ago."

Ben Winston 23:28 Yes. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 23:28 And then I could feel the room go, "Wait, Kendrick's aunt just transitioned?" And then m- most of the Black people were like, "We know what he meant. He meant passed away."

Ben Winston 23:37 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 23:37 But then I saw a lot of white people be like, "Wait"-

Ben Winston 23:39 He's got an uncle.

Trevor Noah 23:39 "What?" Yeah, literally, like... So, I mean-

Ben Winston 23:42 And he actually does. Funny you know.

Trevor Noah 23:43 And he...

Ben Winston 23:44 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 23:44 Yo, man, it was very confusing.

Ben Winston 23:45 You referred to him.

Trevor Noah 23:45 So I just wanted to throw that in. Yes.

Ben Winston 23:47 Yes. I do love him, but he's not my-

Trevor Noah 23:48 Yes

Ben Winston 23:48 ... lover.

Trevor Noah 23:49 Yes.

Ben Winston 23:49 Um, so I only got involved in the Grammys because he got asked to host it, so I went along to be his, like, host producer.

Trevor Noah 23:55 Got it, got it, got it.

Ben Winston 23:56 And that's when Recording Academy got to know me, and that's when J- like, CBS and the Recording Academy said-

Trevor Noah 24:00 Oh, got it. Okay

Ben Winston 24:01 ... "Would you ever?" Then he decided he wasn't gonna do the Grammys anymore. Alicia Keys got appointed, and they said to me, "Ken is," you know, however old he is. I think he was a- you know, 70-odd, 80, whatever. They said, "Would you ever consider it?" And he'd run it 40 years. I was like... And that's how this all happened. But James always used to say something. I wonder if you feel. James always used to say the morning after the Grammys, and I'll never forget it. He always used to say, "The thing I don't understand why I do this is if it goes badly"- ... it's career suicide

Trevor Noah 24:28 Yes

Ben Winston 24:28 You are-

Trevor Noah 24:29 Yes

Ben Winston 24:29 ... you are a joke. You are over. You are rubbish.

Trevor Noah 24:32 Yeah

Ben Winston 24:32 You can never work again. It's a disaster. If it goes well, you get 12 lovely emails.

Trevor Noah 24:37 [laughs]

Ben Winston 24:39 You get 12 lovely emails. And he's like, he's like, "Why, why do I... I don't need 12 lovely emails. I don't ne- " But, like, he also did it for the buzz, and the love of it, and the excitement. And for

Ben Winston 24:51 you, I, I genuinely, the biggest panic I had this year was in regards to you.

Trevor Noah 24:59 For me?

Ben Winston 24:59 And I don't know if you know this. I genuinely could not have done the show this year without you. I couldn't have done it without you. It was such a high-wire act, because loads of people said we shouldn't do the show. Like, loads of people were like, "Cancel the Grammys. Do better."

Trevor Noah 25:13 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 25:13 Like, um, what's her name, the amazing actress from Hacks, uh, Jean Smart.

Trevor Noah 25:17 Yeah.

Ben Winston 25:17 She said, "Cancel all awards shows and give the money to fire relief," or whatever.

Trevor Noah 25:21 Yeah.

Ben Winston 25:21 It's like there was this real, like ... And everyone was like, "Why are you doing the Grammys? It's not about people picking up gold statues," and all this. So there was this huge attention on us, and everyone was going, "You're canceling it, right? You're canceling it." I really didn't wanna cancel it for many reasons. One, I thought we could do real good on the night. Two, I thought it's three we- and a half weeks away, and actually, like, well, we were deep in the fire, but it's three and a half weeks away. If the fires are still raging-

Trevor Noah 25:42 Wait, wait, wait. But you, you had been evacuated from your own home-

Ben Winston 25:44 I-

Trevor Noah 25:44 ... and you were still like, "I think we can do the show."

Ben Winston 25:46 100% wanted to do it, more than ever.

Trevor Noah 25:48 Okay.

Ben Winston 25:48 What people don't realize, and I'm going, I'm gonna come back to the bit about you in a second.

Trevor Noah 25:51 Okay, okay.

Ben Winston 25:52 But what people don't realize, and why I was annoyed, but I don't get annoyed much, you know that.

Trevor Noah 25:56 Yeah. No, you don't.

Ben Winston 25:57 When people were like, "They should just cancel it," I was, like, going, "We did the, the math on this. 6,500 people, all from Los Angeles, in some ways take a wage from the Grammys happening." I'm not talking about Sabrina Carpenter and Chapel Roan.

Trevor Noah 26:14 No.

Ben Winston 26:14 I'm talking about the people who build the stages-

Trevor Noah 26:15 Yeah

Ben Winston 26:15 ... the caterers, the producers-

Trevor Noah 26:17 Yeah

Ben Winston 26:17 ... the writers, the choreographers. That's how many pe- the drivers. It's, it's insane. So all these people saying to ... And a lot of them lost their houses, and a lot of them I know.

Trevor Noah 26:24 Yeah.

Ben Winston 26:25 And the worst thing I could do to them, the worst thing, as the executive producer of the show, the single worst thing I could possibly do to any of those people is go, "Hey, guys, because you guys are struggling right now, and because-

Trevor Noah 26:36 [laughs]

Ben Winston 26:37 ... because you've lost your house-

Trevor Noah 26:39 Yeah

Ben Winston 26:39 ... uh, and because you're having a really tough time, we've decided to take your wage away. Okay? Just to make things a bit easier for you so that you don't need to work-

Trevor Noah 26:46 [laughs]

Ben Winston 26:46 ... right now, okay? I hope that makes you feel good. You know, we're really with you. Heart's with you. I love LA." What? Like, it was just ... It just didn't understand. And then people were like ... There was somebody from Nashville who was gonna come to the show.

Trevor Noah 26:58 Mm-hmm.

Ben Winston 26:58 Big star. And they said their agent called and they said, "They don't wanna take hotel rooms in LA, so we're no longer gonna be doing it because we don't, we think it's inappropriate to take hotel rooms." I was like, hotel rooms right now in Los Angeles, the week of the Grammys, and actually that week, which was three weeks ago-

Trevor Noah 27:15 Yeah

Ben Winston 27:15 ... were at 32% capacity.

Trevor Noah 27:17 You know, it's funny, I said this to Sizwe. So Sizwe, you flew in from ... We were in South Africa. Uh, 'cause, I mean, we did the other podcast together, a few episodes ago. Yeah, like now, basically.

Ben Winston 27:26 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 27:27 A few weeks ago.

Ben Winston 27:27 Two weeks ago.

Trevor Noah 27:28 Yeah. We did the episode together. Then he flew in, and I said to him, I was shocked. I was like, "LA is empty."

Ben Winston 27:34 Empty.

Trevor Noah 27:35 "The airport is empty."

Ben Winston 27:36 Empty.

Trevor Noah 27:36 "The flights coming in are empty. The hotels are empty. LA is empty."

Ben Winston 27:40 It's ... But people are s- they're like, "Oh-"

Trevor Noah 27:42 And then you said, sorry, sorry to interrupt you.

Ben Winston 27:43 No, no, no. Go.

Trevor Noah 27:43 You said to me, you were like, "Yo, man, LA's down." Like, you remember, 'cause you, you said something about like how-

Ben Winston 27:48 Yeah

Trevor Noah 27:48 ... everything is, you noticed it coming in.

Ben Winston 27:50 First, the flights were extremely cheap, or relatively cheap-

Trevor Noah 27:52 Yeah, that's what it was. That's what it was

Ben Winston 27:52 ... compared to what they would've been like this time last year.

Trevor Noah 27:54 Yes, that's what it was, for sure.

Ben Winston 27:55 Um, and then as you say, everything was fully available.

Trevor Noah 27:58 Everything was available because the hotels were empty. And so I've got an artist team from Nashville, when I live and love in L- I li- like, love LA now.

Ben Winston 28:05 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 28:05 I've become proper. I'm 10 years here.

Ben Winston 28:06 Yeah, you have ... I don't-

Trevor Noah 28:07 No, I've changed.

Ben Winston 28:08 Okay.

Trevor Noah 28:08 We can talk about that too-

Ben Winston 28:08 Yeah

Trevor Noah 28:08 ... but I can't get distracted.

Ben Winston 28:09 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 28:09 Let me go.

Ben Winston 28:10 Okay, okay. Go, go, go, go.

Trevor Noah 28:11 So, so, like, you know, I feel very ... When something like h- like that happens, you become, you either go ... 2019, there was a fire in my garden. It was Getty Center. We were evacuated. I thought everything was gone.

Ben Winston 28:21 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 28:21 It was fine, my house. But I was like, "Get me home to London. What the f- hell am I doing here in this place that can burn my house down?" I was like, done. This time, I don't know why, entirely different. Maybe it's because I've got two kids now and two, like, two little Americans. Maybe it's just I've grown in to love this country. Maybe it's I've just been here, this is my 11th year. But I just had this pride in our city. I was like, "We're gonna..." Uh, it was really, it was this, like, resilience-

Ben Winston 28:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Trevor Noah 28:47 ... and, like, love for it. It's why we started with I love LA on the show. It's why we did all the, like, local businesses. It all came from that, like, heart of, like, what I feel about the city.

Ben Winston 28:55 Yeah. You had, you had, like, a-

Trevor Noah 28:56 No, I, I mean it

Ben Winston 28:57 ... an uncharacteristically-

Trevor Noah 28:58 [laughs]

Ben Winston 28:59 Um, i- I say ar- uncharacteristically-

Trevor Noah 29:01 Yeah

Ben Winston 29:01 ... because, like, I always find, like, English people are resilient, but there isn't, like, the same level of-

Trevor Noah 29:06 Schmaltz.

Ben Winston 29:07 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 29:07 [laughs]

Ben Winston 29:07 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 29:08 No, I know. It is. I've got-

Ben Winston 29:09 But now you have, like, a-

Trevor Noah 29:10 No, I do

Ben Winston 29:11 ... you know?

Trevor Noah 29:11 I love this place.

Ben Winston 29:11 So-

Trevor Noah 29:11 You're like, "My neighbors, and we're getting together, and we gotta make this-

Ben Winston 29:13 We are the community

Trevor Noah 29:14 ... and we gotta get blankets to the people, and we gotta ..."

Ben Winston 29:16 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 29:16 It's like, yeah, come on USA.

Ben Winston 29:17 LA changed me.

Trevor Noah 29:18 That's what I'm waiting for you to-

Ben Winston 29:19 Yeah. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Trevor Noah 29:20 No, no.

Ben Winston 29:20 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 29:20 [laughs]

Ben Winston 29:22 I'm not chanting USA, guys.

Trevor Noah 29:24 A few more years.

Ben Winston 29:25 I've started to get to know my neighbor's names. Chill out.

Trevor Noah 29:27 A few more years.

Ben Winston 29:27 Four more years.

Trevor Noah 29:28 Yeah. Four more years.

Ben Winston 29:28 Four more years.

Trevor Noah 29:29 [laughs]

Ben Winston 29:30 Make the Grammys great again, guys.

Trevor Noah 29:32 [laughs]

Ben Winston 29:32 Um, so, so, so then when this artist said, um, "We, no, we're not gonna come. We're put, you know, we don't wanna come because ... " And they weren't, they weren't in the show anyway.

Trevor Noah 29:41 Yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 29:41 They hadn't confirmed, but I was hoping to get them. And they were like, "No, it, we're gonna keep the hotel rooms free." And it was s- the idea that it, people who have been evacuated, either there is, either they are not wealthy enough to stay in a hotel for more than two or three nights. You think they're staying at The London on Sunset Boulevard for, like, three months?

Trevor Noah 29:57 Right.

Ben Winston 29:58 Like, these, b- they, they can't, they don't have a, they don't have any possessions anymore. Or they're wealthy enough to rent a new place-

Trevor Noah 30:03 Yeah, to rent. Not-

Ben Winston 30:04 ... or move on out

Trevor Noah 30:05 ... the money of, the economics of a hotel will just never work.

Ben Winston 30:07 Right.

Trevor Noah 30:07 It's not gonna work.

Ben Winston 30:08 So, so, so the hotels are empty. Everybody knows that in this town. Bars aren't being used, valets. That, like, the whole thing. So that annoyed me. So that's why I was like ... A friend of mine, Jeffrey, I'm gonna, I'm, I hope he won't mind.

Trevor Noah 30:20 No.

Ben Winston 30:20 Jeffrey Katzenberg calls me Literally while I'm evacuated and while everybody is going, "We don't know if the Grammy should happen." And me and Harvey, Harvey Mason Jr., who runs the Recording Academy, who's em- employs me to produce the show, we were both like, "We really think we can do something good on this show." And Jeffrey called me, and Jeffrey's like one of my favorite people in the world, and he called me and he said, like, "Why don't we think about doing something on television with musicians for the fires?" This was before FireAid had been-

Trevor Noah 30:45 Yeah, yeah. Right

Ben Winston 30:45 ... announced and Irving's thing. He said, "I really think that you'd be the right person to pull it together, get the artists. We could find a network. We do the whole thing." And I said, I, I literally, I was in our hotel room with all my bags around me. I said, "Jeffrey, but to do that, you'd need X million dollars to put on an event. I've already got X million dollars on February the 2nd. It's the Grammys."

Trevor Noah 31:05 Mm-hmm.

Ben Winston 31:06 "You're also gonna need a network to, like, g- put it on." And I was like, "I've already got that. It's CBS."

Trevor Noah 31:11 Mm-hmm.

Ben Winston 31:11 "You'd also need people to watch it, and that's hard, but it's called the Grammys, so people will watch it. And you'd also need to get Beyoncé and Taylor and Billie and Gaga and Bruno and Olivia Rodrigo in a room."

Trevor Noah 31:21 Yeah.

Ben Winston 31:21 "And I've already got that. It's called the Grammys." I was like, "Why would we do something for that? Why not just make this that?" And, and that's what, like, we needed to do, and it was a crazy high-wire act for you to do. 'Cause at the one time you're going, "Please welcome Sabrina Carpenter," but the other time you're saying, "Go to this QR code and help these people."

Trevor Noah 31:39 Yeah.

Ben Winston 31:39 And, and I think it's, it was an impossible job that you did unbelievably, unbelievably well.

Trevor Noah 31:44 And you kindly thank you.

Ben Winston 31:45 So much so that I want you to know something that I only found out about an hour ago. During the telecast-

Trevor Noah 31:50 Yeah

Ben Winston 31:50 ... just during the telecast, there was donations of over $8.5 million. Altogether it's been nine-

Trevor Noah 31:55 Jesus

Ben Winston 31:55 ... just over nine. It's $24 million for all the weekend's events at the Grammys.

Trevor Noah 31:59 Wow. Wow.

Ben Winston 31:59 But just during the telecast is $9 million. Uh, uh, is $8.5 million. What is fascinating about that, that I literally just found out a minute ago in my office, is the average donation of that was less than 50 bucks. So what happened was the biggest donation from people at home was a 30, then it was a 10, and then it was a five. That's the three donations. Everything else was beneath that level.

Trevor Noah 32:22 Wow.

Ben Winston 32:22 Which what that means is hundreds of thousands of people were watching the show and watching you go, "There's a QR code"

Trevor Noah 32:28 Yeah

Ben Winston 32:28 ... and they were donating 5, 10, 20, enough that we raised $8 million just from those donations. That's a good- because you'll think if you raise $8 million, that's 100 grand here-

Trevor Noah 32:39 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Ben Winston 32:40 ... that's, uh, that's half a million there.

Trevor Noah 32:41 Thousand, thousand dollars there. Yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 32:42 Of course. You know, like, uh, but that's not, no corporate sponsors, that's not including the artists-

Trevor Noah 32:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Ben Winston 32:47 ... that add up to that 24.

Trevor Noah 32:49 Yeah.

Ben Winston 32:49 It's just people at home. And like, that's because you successfully, and I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass. I, I, but like, that's because you successfully and, like, seismically changed, like, people to do that. People to go up to their screen and get their phone and then type in a code rather than just watching TV and enjoying the Grammys, that's 'cause you did it really well. And so it was a high-wire act, but I knew that I needed you hugely, because without you, it would've been impossible to get the excitement and the joy and allow somebody to stand there and win a Grammy, to also have someone who loves and understands music-

Trevor Noah 33:23 Yeah

Ben Winston 33:24 ... but fundamentally, to get the tone right so that we could go from I Love LA or the firemen coming on stage or the commercials for the businesses or all the other, all the, all the choir that sung with Stevie Wonder-

Trevor Noah 33:33 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Ben Winston 33:33 ... from schools that burnt down. All those bits that we'd come up with-

Trevor Noah 33:36 Yeah

Ben Winston 33:36 ... you had to get us through them and at the same time make a joke about-

Trevor Noah 33:40 Yeah

Ben Winston 33:40 ... I don't know, alligator bites.

Trevor Noah 33:41 Right. Right

Ben Winston 33:42 And that was needed. So my big... As I've talked for too long, I'm sorry, but-

Trevor Noah 33:45 No, dude, what do you mean? This is a podcast.

Ben Winston 33:47 But my-

Trevor Noah 33:47 We have to talk about the

Trevor Noah 33:48 Grammys. You're the Grammys guy. What do you mean?

Ben Winston 33:49 But, um, I freaked out. Do you not know this?

Trevor Noah 33:52 I don't know anything. I'm, I, I'm, I'm waiting to hear it.

Ben Winston 33:54 All right. So it was the week of the fires-

Trevor Noah 33:58 Yeah

Ben Winston 33:59 ... which was January the 7th or 8th, and me and Harvey are, and with Raj and Jesse, who also I should credit them, they're also execs on the show. We decide we're gonna go ahead with the show. So we make this announcement we're going ahead with the show, and I'm like, "Great, we're going ahead." And I start planning it and I'm start thinking of all these ideas and I'm like, "And then Trevor can do this," and like, um, "Oh, and then Trevor could start like this, and then he could, like, unveil the photo of Doors." And I'm like just thinking of all of it and, like, really... And I'm phoning all the artists 'cause they all wanna know that it's gonna be okay.

Trevor Noah 34:27 Yeah, yeah. Right.

Ben Winston 34:28 They all wanna know that they're not walking into, like... So I, I went round each one, not each one of them, not all of them, but like a lot of them, like, wanted a call to understand what we were doing.

Trevor Noah 34:36 Yeah.

Ben Winston 34:36 And I reassured them instantly and they could feel, oh, there's love here, and like, it's gonna be okay. And it got to, like, the 12th of January or 13th of January. I don't know the exact dates, but it was like, you know. And Eric Cook, the co-EP, uh, who sort of runs the budget, comes into my office and he says, um, [lips smack] he says, "When, uh, we still haven't got Trevor's contract signed. When are you announcing Trevor?" And I went [laughs]

Trevor Noah 35:05 [laughs]

Ben Winston 35:06 I went, "Hold on. We haven't announced Trevor?" And he's like, "No." I was like, "Why haven't we announced Trevor?" He's like, "I don't know. We've never announced Trevor." I was like, "I had no idea we hadn't announced you as the host." Because we, you and I are, I would say-

Trevor Noah 35:21 Yeah

Ben Winston 35:21 ... very close friends.

Trevor Noah 35:22 Yes. Yeah.

Ben Winston 35:22 And I just, [laughs] we just assume we're doing it together.

Trevor Noah 35:24 Yeah, man.

Ben Winston 35:25 We're just-

Trevor Noah 35:25 I, I don't even... So here's a funny thing about me, though.

Ben Winston 35:27 I just assume he's in.

Trevor Noah 35:28 No, but, no, but here's a funny thing. I'm the opposite. Sizwe will even tell you this. I don't assume anything. So even when they ask me, "Are you doing the Grammys?" I say-

Ben Winston 35:38 Yeah

Trevor Noah 35:38 ... and it's the truth, I go, "They'll let me know if they want me," but until then, I'm-

Ben Winston 35:43 No, but we did have a con- no, but we'd already, at that stage.

Trevor Noah 35:45 No, no, no, but when I'm saying with the fires-

Ben Winston 35:46 Yeah, yeah

Trevor Noah 35:46 ... and I'm saying with all of the-

Ben Winston 35:47 Right

Trevor Noah 35:47 ... so I'm still going like, "Hey, man, I don't..." And this, this guy's known me w- we on, like, 20-something years, bro.

Ben Winston 35:53 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 35:53 Sizwe knows me. I take nothing for granted. I always assume that I will be fired or can be fired.

Ben Winston 35:58 Right.

Trevor Noah 35:58 Anything in life can change.

Ben Winston 36:01 Okay.

Trevor Noah 36:01 And I don't even have, like, I'm like Babyface with most things.

Ben Winston 36:03 Yeah, you, okay, you're happy.

Trevor Noah 36:04 I, I turn around and I go-

Ben Winston 36:04 You are. You're very relaxed

Trevor Noah 36:05 ... Trevor Noah, you walk ahead. So for me, I was just sitting in South Africa literally just being like, "Man, this is crazy. Is the Grammys happening or?" But I, I don't even assume that I'm doing it even though we've spoken, 'cause I know you might call me and say, "Hey, listen, this year is different. We're gonna do a different thing." And so, uh, yeah, I'm like-

Ben Winston 36:21 Okay. But I have in my head designed an entire show-

Trevor Noah 36:25 Yeah, which I didn't know, by the way

Ben Winston 36:26 ... an entire show based with you at the helm.

Trevor Noah 36:28 Right.

Ben Winston 36:28 Every element of it-

Trevor Noah 36:29 [laughs]

Ben Winston 36:29 ... from like the Gen Z commercial joke, I'd already got like a bit of that. Like, the, the whole idea of it, like everything was with you in my head. It wasn't, it didn't cross my mind for a second you weren't doing the show. And then Eric went Well, no, we haven't announced him. So I was like, so I had this cold sweat come over my body. It was about, it was about like ... You know, it must have been really early in the morning, 'cause I remember. So then it, it was 9:00 o'clock, that's right. So I call you, 'cause I'm panicking a little bit, and it goes straight to answerphone. Then I called Rachel Rush, who's your agent, and it rang. Rachel Rush never doesn't pick up for me.

Trevor Noah 37:04 No, it d- it, it's insta-pick.

Ben Winston 37:06 It's insta-pick.

Trevor Noah 37:07 Yeah.

Ben Winston 37:07 She picks up instantly. And we've just announced we're definitely going ahead with the Grammys. It rings and rings and rings. No text going, "I'll call you back."

Trevor Noah 37:13 [laughs]

Ben Winston 37:14 So then I call, then I call your manager, Norm. Nothing.

Trevor Noah 37:19 Wow.

Ben Winston 37:19 Literally nothing. No one picks up.

Trevor Noah 37:22 Thought I was getting snubbed. [laughs]

Ben Winston 37:24 I'm like, I am, like, heavy breathing.

Trevor Noah 37:25 Oh, this is so funny.

Ben Winston 37:26 So then I'm like, "All right. I haven't got Rachel. I haven't got Trevor. I haven't got Norm. Derek will pick up. Derek will pick up." So then Derek, I pick, I ring him. Nothing. Five minutes later, on Zoom, "Can I call back later in the day?" That's far too formal for me, Derek.

Trevor Noah 37:43 [laughs]

Ben Winston 37:44 That is funny. That is far too formal.

Trevor Noah 37:46 [laughs]

Ben Winston 37:46 Oh, man. Then Rachel Rush texts me- Oh, man, this is funny ... and goes, Rachel Rush texts me. This is now, like, 9:45. Rachel Rush texts me going, "Sorry, saw I had a missed call. Been in meetings. Will make sure we speak later in the day." And I am like, so I try you again. I try you again. I'm like, "Oh my God." T- try you again. No answer. These are four people who I know your listeners wouldn't necessarily know, but four people who pick up my call-

Trevor Noah 38:11 Yes

Ben Winston 38:11 ... and, like, are friends of mine.

Trevor Noah 38:12 And, and what's, what's funny is what I'm experiencing, just from, 'cause I don't know anyone else's story, but for me, when this was all happening, I was in South Africa and I specifically decided that I'm gonna take some time away from digital devices and, and I, like, made a whole thing. And I was ... Then I wrote to one of my friends. I said to, I said to one of my friends, I was like, "Hey, I'm, I think I, I'm gonna send this out as sort of an out of office to everyone just to be like, 'Hey, I'm staying away from my phone. If you ...'" Then he was like, "Calm down." He's like, "You're not a doctor."

Ben Winston 38:39 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 38:40 "You're not a lawyer. Nobody needs you like that."

Ben Winston 38:42 Dude.

Trevor Noah 38:43 And then he said, "If someone needs to get ahold of you, they'll find you through your people. So relax." So I was like, "All right." Literally my phone for maybe 10 days was just n- maybe look in the morning-

Ben Winston 38:53 Oh, man

Trevor Noah 38:53 ... maybe look at night, and that was it.

Ben Winston 38:55 Well, I was having an utter freak-out.

Trevor Noah 38:56 I'm sorry, my friend.

Ben Winston 38:57 So, so, so, so I'm also going, all four of them are on a Zoom right now. It's 9:00 in the morning. They've read the announcement-

Trevor Noah 39:02 They're discussing this

Ben Winston 39:03 ... we're going ahead, and they are discussing how Trevor thinks it's not a good idea. And I'm also annoyed at myself, genuinely annoyed at myself, and it was bad producing. I did, I made an, I m- I made a genuine mistake. Being serious, I actually learned from this, and you don't even know about it. The i- In my head, I think of us as kind of a unit. Like, I, in a lovely way.

Trevor Noah 39:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm with you.

Ben Winston 39:22 In that, like, I just thought, "Oh, Trevor will be fine with all of this."

Trevor Noah 39:25 Right. Okay. I'm with you.

Ben Winston 39:26 "And this is great." And I was so annoyed at myself that we had made an announcement, not with your name in it, that the Grammys was happening and I hadn't picked up the phone to you and gone, "Do you think that's all right? Is that okay with you? Will you still do it?" Because if you had said, "I don't wanna do it," I don't think I would've gone ahead and ... I, I, we might have gone ahead. I'm not saying you're bigger than the Grammys.

Trevor Noah 39:45 I get what you're saying. No, I get what you're saying.

Ben Winston 39:45 But I might have said, "Harvey, I need to find a host that can manage what we're about to do-

Trevor Noah 39:49 Oh, that's interesting

Ben Winston 39:49 ... before we go ahead. I can't, we can't announce we're doing it until I know who's gonna be the voice of, like, our ideas and our vision-

Trevor Noah 39:55 Yeah. Yeah

Ben Winston 39:55 ... and whatever." And I was so angry at myself, 'cause it's, it's a real ball drop for me. And I, and as you all know, I'm, like, quite detailed.

Trevor Noah 40:02 And I had, I had no emotion going. So I was-

Ben Winston 40:04 I'm sorry that you went through all of this

Trevor Noah 40:05 So I called a meeting with my staff.

Ben Winston 40:06 I was skipping through the grass.

Trevor Noah 40:07 Yeah. It's g-

Ben Winston 40:08 Enjoying a mountain.

Trevor Noah 40:09 Where the hell were Norm, Derek, and Rachel?

Ben Winston 40:11 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 40:11 So I called a meeting with my staff, with Patrick and, and Raj. And we called in, and they all knew, it was about 10:30 that morning. I said, "I've got, I, I've just got something in my stomach I have to share with all of you. Trevor's out. I think Trevor's out."

Ben Winston 40:24 No.

Trevor Noah 40:25 I swear to God. The room, it was the most morbid room. Everyone was like, "Oh my God." I was like, "I've," I said, "I've F'd up." I was like, "I didn't, I, I don't know what's happened. I, I might be able to talk him back in." I was spiraling. I don't know what was going on with me. I'm this, like, together-

Ben Winston 40:42 That's so out of character. That is very out of character

Trevor Noah 40:43 ... I was, it was so, but I was like, there was so much at stake for me with this show.

Ben Winston 40:45 Okay. This makes, that makes sense. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 40:46 I put my heart and soul into this Grammys. I, partly because, like, I love the Grammys now. I've just decided it's, like, it's my baby now.

Ben Winston 40:53 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Trevor Noah 40:53 I've done it five years and I love it, and I love the love it gets and, and I love, I'm a proper music fan, so I love that. And I just like telly and the challenge of it, and I've ... And the LA thing evaporated-

Ben Winston 41:01 And now in his home and now you're fighting for it

Trevor Noah 41:03 ... and I was proud. We can raise money.

Ben Winston 41:04 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 41:05 And I was like, "This is so idiotic of me to have a

Sizwe Dhlomo 42:41 And I was like, "So I've got a few ideas for the, you know, the Grammys. At some point we should talk about it." You're like, "Yeah, yeah, at some point we should just, yeah, whenever. Like, you know, I'm around. I'm back in LA next week. Let's talk then." [laughs]

Trevor Noah 42:52 "Sure. Yeah, no, absolutely." [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 42:54 [laughs] Oh, that's funny.

Trevor Noah 42:56 Meanwhile, we had the opposite, 'cause, uh, obviously the fires happened.

Sizwe Dhlomo 42:59 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 42:59 Now we're wondering, "What's gonna happen? How are you gonna do it? How are people gonna do it?" Everyone's trying to figure out the semblance of normalcy that they can attain during a disaster like this. And then, uh, you and I spoke-

Sizwe Dhlomo 43:11 Initially, we check- we thought they were gonna get canceled.

Trevor Noah 43:12 Yeah, we thought-

Sizwe Dhlomo 43:13 Yeah

Trevor Noah 43:13 ... it was gonna get canceled.

Sizwe Dhlomo 43:14 Mm.

Trevor Noah 43:14 And then it was you who said to me ... You had, like, no doubt in Ben being able to pull it off, funny enough.

Sizwe Dhlomo 43:19 I didn't have a doubt, a- and it's for two reasons, right? So I've obviously, I've worked with you guys for, like, four years now, seen how you guys do your thing, and I know the chemistry you have, right?

Trevor Noah 43:28 Mm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 43:29 Um, the first time in Vegas, I was familiar with your work-

Trevor Noah 43:34 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 43:34 ... but obviously had never seen you deliver. And after that year, I even told him, I said, "This is the right person for you. Like, I've never seen an on-air chemistry like what you guys have." And I'm not even saying this 'cause you're here, right?

Trevor Noah 43:46 That's nice.

Sizwe Dhlomo 43:46 Like, he- he'll know. Um, so when you guys decided, you put out the announcement, even on Instagram, and funny enough, I sent you a DM and my response was, like, a fire emoji, which I then thought-

Trevor Noah 43:57 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 43:57 ... "Well, I probably shouldn't have done that."

Trevor Noah 43:59 That's the wrong, yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 43:59 Yeah. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 43:59 That's the wrong emoji.

Sizwe Dhlomo 44:00 I was sat in my house with two hoses.

Trevor Noah 44:02 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 44:02 But I appreciate it.

Trevor Noah 44:03 Yeah. But-

Sizwe Dhlomo 44:05 I was 100% sure you'd be able to pull it off. I just knew that the tone of the show would have to be different.

Trevor Noah 44:11 For sure.

Sizwe Dhlomo 44:11 Which is what we initially discussed.

Trevor Noah 44:13 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 44:13 And then everything from that point on, perfect.

Trevor Noah 44:15 Did you ever ... Was ... So my instinct was obviously wrong, as in, like, you hadn't, you weren't pulling out.

Sizwe Dhlomo 44:20 No.

Trevor Noah 44:21 But did you ever consider, "Actually, maybe I shouldn't be hosting it this year. I don't," or, "I don't want the challenge of it this year," or, "You know what? Maybe this isn't for me"? Did it cross your mind at any point, or you were just as easygoing as you made out to me on the phone? Okay. Let's, let's take a break. I'll think about it.

Sizwe Dhlomo 44:37 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 44:37 I'll think about it, and then I'll, I'll, I'll give you the answer to that. [upbeat music] So I wanna take a moment to talk about ZipRecruiter. No matter what job you're searching for or hiring for, ZipRecruiter can help. Today, we're talking about the Grammys, and if you just think about a show like that, it's incredible the number of very specific jobs that go into putting it all together. You know what? It's actually funny. Speaking of jobs, you and I basically met through jobs.

Sizwe Dhlomo 45:05 Yep.

Trevor Noah 45:06 Right? And you and I met on a production set, basically. Like, I was doing, uh, you know, the kids show. You were doing ... What were you doing at the time? MTV?

Sizwe Dhlomo 45:16 MTV stuff, yeah.

Trevor Noah 45:17 Yeah. So you're doing MTV, and so you go there day one, and what do you expect?

Sizwe Dhlomo 45:21 Well, I didn't really have an expectation, 'cause how I got my job was via, like, an open audition.

Trevor Noah 45:27 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 45:27 So literally everything was a learning experience. And just, you know, "Okay, what do you do?" Then they'll tell you. Then you move on. "Okay, what do you do? What's your role? How does it all fit together to then create the big production?"

Trevor Noah 45:38 That's probably the most mind-blowing part of a production, is how many people need to come together to make it happen.

Sizwe Dhlomo 45:44 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 45:45 Like, I speak to people all the time who will say to me, "Hey, Trevor, I wanna work in entertainment." Then I go, "Doing what?" And they're like, "What do you mean doing what?" I'm like, "Well, doing what?" There's literally everything in entertainment. You know, I remember when I discovered there's somebody whose job it is to make sure that the cables that are on the cameras don't get tangled up, because then-

Sizwe Dhlomo 46:04 The cable basher

Trevor Noah 46:04 ... yo, and, like-

Sizwe Dhlomo 46:05 Yep

Trevor Noah 46:05 ... that's one of the most important people on the job. Like, running along the, the sidelines at the NFL or, you know, at a live show like the Grammys or you name it, like, that person's job is just to make sure that the cables don't get tangled so that you at home don't miss the shot. You know?

Sizwe Dhlomo 46:18 I've always wondered, what's a first boy grip? I've always read that since I was a kid, you know?

Trevor Noah 46:23 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 46:23 I was like, "I wonder what a first boy grip is." [laughs] Like, what is that?

Trevor Noah 46:28 It's the grip that is most important. That's my guess.

Sizwe Dhlomo 46:34 But why first boy?

Trevor Noah 46:35 Hey, man, this, this is why you need, like, hiring si- ... 'Cause I, I mean, how many jobs are there? Do you know what I mean? Like, think about it. Everyone thinks of a cameraman.

Sizwe Dhlomo 46:44 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 46:44 When a movie's being made or when a show's being, like, created on live TV, do you know how many different people are making that camera work? You know what I mean? You watch something. You think two people were having a conversation. You don't know behind them, there were 200 people making it look like it was just two people having a conversation. And all of those roles need people.

Sizwe Dhlomo 47:05 And they need to be filled. You need to know where to go and find them.

Trevor Noah 47:09 And that's where ZipRecruiter comes in. Every day, ZipRecruiter helps 10 million candidates with their job search, which means no matter the role or industry, they can help your business find qualified candidates fast. And when they say, "No matter the role or industry," they really mean it. Whether you need to find that one person, that one employee for your small business, or staff for a big event, you can see for yourself by going to ziprecruiter.com/trevor. With smart matching technology and handy tools like the invite to apply feature, you'll find a potential hire in no time. ZipRecruiter is the hiring site employers prefer most based on G2. In fact, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. See for yourself. Try it now for free at ziprecruiter.com/trevor. That's ziprecruiter.com/T-R-E-V-O-R. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. [upbeat music] Okay, so 2024 is coming to a close. Uh, I've been on tour almost for two years. This is, like, me finally wrapping things up. I put on a few extra shows in New York at The Beacon, at the Comedy Cellar, at a, a little theater downtown, at the Soho Theatre, and then I decided I'm gonna go to South Africa for Christmas. I'm gonna go spend time with my mom, and then I'll spend New Year's in South Africa, in Johannesburg, which I don't regularly do, with my friends Sizwe, Anele, everyone. We normally travel. And then I decide, "You know what? I'm just gonna spend time at home doing, like, nothing and just chill. Just get back to home vibes." So I'm home, I'm home, I'm home, having a wonderful time. While we're there, the news comes out about LA, and it's the same news that always comes out every year. There are wildfires in LA. Now, it's not diminished by the fact that it always happens, but you, you always think to yourself, "Oh yeah, they got it, man. They always, they always got it. It can get a little out of hand, but they've got it. They've got it. They've got it." Then the fires grow, then the fires grow. They keep growing. They keep growing. Now you hear about evacuation orders, and now we're reading this secondhand. We're not in LA, you know, so all you get is the news clip/a few videos online. Then the fires jump, then the fires expand. Then now we're like, "Wow, it looks like the whole city is burning." Now personal friends start texting me- Mm ... or e- like my manager, um, and, and my agent, Matt Blake, literally his house gone. Like gone, gone, ashes. I'm sorry. No, but you... So now you start getting direct people going- Yeah ... "Hey man, house gone. Hey, house gone. Hey, house gone." A- and now you're like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Everyone, how far is this thing getting?" Now you're like, "Oh, everyone is gonna be involved in this." It's not, it's not, it's not like a few people who live near to the boundary, which is normally how it is. Mm. It's everyone. So I'm experiencing this, but it's not about me, so I'm just like, "I hope everyone's okay." And whenever there's a tragedy, I hate being the person who's texting people because I feel like I don't need you to reply to my text while shit's going wrong in your life. So I'll text you afterwards, because my text doesn't necessarily help you. You know what I mean? So I'm, I'm quiet. I'm spending time off my devices. We go, we see things are being canceled, moved, et cetera. I go, "Sizwe, what do you think is gonna happen?" He's like, "I don't know. But if, you know, if anything happened, they'll let you know." I'm like, "All right, we'll see. Are The Grammys still happening?" "We don't know. We don't know. We don't know." Grammys gets announced. The Grammys are happening, but they say nothing about me, so I'm like, "Oh, okay. I guess there's gonna be a shift. It's fine." Then I go, "Sizwe, you saw The Grammys is happening?" Sizwe goes instantly, he's like, "Yeah." He's like, "Ben can pull it off. I know he can. He always, he'll figure it out. He, he always pulls it off." So I'm like, I'm like, "Yeah." I'm like, "Ben will do... I don't know how he's gonna do it- Mm ... but he'll do something. Cool." And I'm fine. I'm just living my life. We speak on the phone. The only doubts I had were doubts around... So I'll start with this. Number one, to what James said, and what anyone who's hosted an award show will know. You know? Like I remember like talking to Kevin Hart about it. I've talked to Chris Rock about it. You name it. Hosting a show is one of the more thankless things you can do. Yeah. Right? And not thankless like, "Oh, I need the thanks," but it's just because it's such a high-wire act, even if there's nothing bad happening in the world. You step onto a stage where people haven't come for you, and you then do the thing that you do, which is already precarious. Comedy is not a safe art form. Full stop. Like f- f- just even people who are coming to a comedy club, there's a possibility the comedy doesn't go the way they want it to. For a comedian, it's not a safe art form. No comedian's like, "Ah, what a lovely, easy job I have," right? So you start with that. Then an award show where people are coming for music is not even like the Emmys and the Oscars where people are, you know, used to sitting down, having people talk all night. No, the music speaks at The Grammys. You know? There's very little speaking at The Grammys. So I, I, I, I have my latent doubts about doing The Grammys. I roll to The Grammys because of you. [laughs] You know what I mean? This, literally from the beginning, I was like, "Look, I don't like award shows. I would never do an award show, but I roll with you, and I trust you to keep me safe and to try and put the best show on." And I love making people feel good. Mm. Now the fires are happening. I go, "Okay, so I've already got the doubts I had. But now what are you... Are you throwing a party while everyone's having a funeral?" Mm-hmm. "What are you doing? How m- how bad is the devastation? Are you assuming devastation on their behalf?" Because that's another thing I've realized we do quite a lot in society these days, is we assume things on other people's behalves that they themselves aren't experiencing. Mm. Babyface is a good example. Babyface- Mm ... wasn't pissed off. People were pissed off. "How dare you?" Mm-hmm. But the man that you are daring on behalf of is like, "No, I get it, man. It's part of the game. Relax." People get offended on, you know, a place's behalf. People get offended on... People, we, we do that, and sometimes w- we do it, I think o- most of the time we try and do it out of good, but the intention doesn't match up with the, with the outcome, right? So I, I didn't want to make the assumption and be like, "No, I cannot do The Grammys at this tough time. I cannot..." Then it's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What, what about the people who've worked for a year on their music? What about the people who've s- like prepared for a year to work on The Grammys? What about the people y-..." And I spend most of my time with these guys. I'm chatting to, you know, the, the stagehand backstage. I'm being ushered around, you know, by, by the crew. I, I'm, I'm building bonds with the, the cameraman because you, you know what it's like, Cesar, when you've hosted. That's the thing. Mm. These are the people that you're doing most of it with. Mm-hmm. So I'm not in the position to assume anything. I just go, "I will work with what is given to me." But what I thought from the get-go, even when I came to LA, was, "Man, this is gonna be hard." Mm. And this is gonna be hard because half the people who are here have a feeling of sadness that they're carrying. It's mixed in with resilience, but it's still sadness. The other half have some sort of reverence for what everyone is experiencing, but they've come into town, but they also don't want to be the people with confetti and streamers. So every normal pre-Grammy party was canceled. Every after party was canceled. Yeah. There was no Spotify party. There was no CAA party. There was no Warner Music party. There, there's nothing. There's nothing. So the preamble feels different. People feel different. You know? You, the first time you're gonna put something nice on is just to go to the show. That's, that's not usual. And then on top of that, you realize that the audience isn't having the same feelings depending on where they are. Someone's watching in South Africa.

Ben Winston 54:45 Yep.

Trevor Noah 54:46 They're not having the same feeling.

Ben Winston 54:47 Right. That's absolutely true.

Trevor Noah 54:47 Somebody's watching in London, they're not having the same feeling.

Ben Winston 54:50 No.

Trevor Noah 54:50 They're happy for Ray, you know?

Ben Winston 54:51 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 54:52 And then someone's watching from Australia, and then someone's watching from ... But these people are like, "Oh, yeah, we know that there is a fire. But also, when we had a fire, you didn't do the thing, so we're having a different feeling."

Ben Winston 55:02 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 55:02 And, and I was watching this online, I was seeing people. So I didn't, I didn't assume anything, but I knew for me personally, I was like, "This is probably gonna be my least favorite Grammys."

Ben Winston 55:12 Mm.

Trevor Noah 55:13 Because whatever happens, I will be doing something wrong.

Ben Winston 55:17 But was it your least favorite in the end?

Trevor Noah 55:19 Yeah, easily.

Ben Winston 55:20 Right. Just because you were worried about that high line of how you were-

Trevor Noah 55:24 But I mean-

Ben Winston 55:24 Just because you couldn't be loose.

Trevor Noah 55:26 So not, not even loose. So it's like ... A- and when I say least favorite, I, I'm using, you know, like favorite the way you use, like, for fun.

Ben Winston 55:31 No, it's your experience.

Trevor Noah 55:32 Yeah, just-

Ben Winston 55:32 You don't mean least favorite as in the show.

Trevor Noah 55:33 Yeah, not like the show.

Ben Winston 55:34 You mean your experience.

Trevor Noah 55:35 But for me-

Ben Winston 55:36 Yeah

Trevor Noah 55:36 ... as Trevor-

Ben Winston 55:37 Yeah

Trevor Noah 55:37 ... this was the most stressful, most high-wire, most ... Because I, I don't want anyone who's experiencing this disaster to feel like I'm minimizing it, 'cause I'm not. I literally have some of my people in the audience-

Ben Winston 55:52 Sure

Trevor Noah 55:52 ... where we, we, we've experienced a collective loss.

Ben Winston 55:54 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 55:54 So even on a personal level, it's not like strangers.

Ben Winston 55:57 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 55:57 I'm like, "I want you to think," you know? But then you know there's someone who's watching going like, "Oh, really? What? I just tuned in for a funeral?" Because it is a celebration.

Ben Winston 56:05 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 56:05 And I always think that's the paradox of life. One of the hardest paradoxes of life to, to accept is that in the same hospital where somebody's dying, a baby's just been born.

Ben Winston 56:13 Mm.

Trevor Noah 56:14 Literally. Just like a few hallways away, someone is cheering, and then in another hallway, people are crying because they've had the exact opposite experience. But what do you do? Do you say the hospital is all sad, or do you say no balloons? Or do you say no crying? Like, what, what do you do? And that, that's, that's what it felt like coming in. And so even doing the show, you saw, it's like, we were like, "What jokes would work or wouldn't work? Or what do we say or not say or..." This is when I knew the room was different. This is the first Grammys I've done where everyone was sat before the show started.

Ben Winston 56:47 Hmm.

Trevor Noah 56:47 That's when I knew this was gonna be a, a weird, different vibe. I didn't know which way the vibe would go. But I've never done a Grammys, other than COVID, but that was different. I've never done a Grammys where everyone is sat.

Ben Winston 56:57 You mean, 'cause usually it's the mayhem at their arriving as they-

Trevor Noah 56:59 Yo

Ben Winston 56:59 ... as they're very jubilant.

Trevor Noah 57:00 Yeah.

Ben Winston 57:01 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 57:01 Taylor's just walking, "Nice to see you."

Ben Winston 57:03 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 57:03 "Ah, and you know that table and that table and-

Ben Winston 57:05 Yeah

Trevor Noah 57:05 ... and someone's over there, and, and Billie Eilish is-"

Ben Winston 57:07 But do you think that's because we started it with, with you talking about devastation?

Trevor Noah 57:10 No, no, no. But they were seated.

Ben Winston 57:12 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 57:12 Regardless of what ... I know what you mean.

Ben Winston 57:14 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 57:14 But they were in their seats.

Ben Winston 57:16 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 57:16 They weren't ... People are normally walking in.

Ben Winston 57:18 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 57:18 You know, the rappers are there. Oh, Busta Rhymes is in the corner. "Hey, what's going on, Babyface?" The, the ... No.

Ben Winston 57:23 There's usually a party in everybody's dressing room.

Trevor Noah 57:25 Yes.

Ben Winston 57:26 Mm.

Trevor Noah 57:26 There was none of that this year.

Ben Winston 57:27 There was none of that. But there was by the end of the show.

Trevor Noah 57:29 Yes. Yes, but it wasn't a party. It was a, it was, it was the feeling that you have after a, a funeral or a wake. It was, it was a feeling where most of the feelings that people had had had been addressed. So ca- it ... You know

Trevor Noah 57:45 when you, when you're applying s- a, a, a balm to a, a burn wound? There is a feeling of relief that comes with it that allows you to not feel burnt for a moment. Like Kendrick and his acceptance speech was a, that was a love letter to LA.

Ben Winston 57:58 Mm.

Trevor Noah 58:00 Kendrick may have made the same acceptance speech were the fires not there, but I don't think he would have, you know? Now he's like, he's talking about his love for each and every part of those, every city. It wasn't just Compton now.

Ben Winston 58:10 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 58:11 It was him going, "Yo, man, Pasadena, and you know, Santa Monica," and he's like, "All of this is part of me." Every single artist who got up and said something about something became part of the balm that soothed the night and the show. So I think the feeling we experienced at the end with Beyonce standing up there, I've never seen Beyonce that emotional.

Ben Winston 58:31 Mm.

Trevor Noah 58:32 Never.

Ben Winston 58:34 But do you think that was because of what had happened in Los Angeles, or do you think it was because of-

Trevor Noah 58:38 I think it's a, I think it's because of everything

Ben Winston 58:39 ... winning an album or?

Trevor Noah 58:40 No. No, no, no, no. I think it's-

Ben Winston 58:41 Like, people saw Billie Eilish crying when Beyonce was up on stage.

Trevor Noah 58:45 Yeah.

Ben Winston 58:45 And lots of people have said to me, "Why do you think she was crying?" And it's, it's really interesting. It's like, I think it could've just been the emotion of the night. But I mean, it could've been anything from being happy to see Beyonce. Some people were saying, "Oh, she's sad that she's lost, and that's why she's crying."

Trevor Noah 58:57 [laughs]

Ben Winston 58:57 I was like, "Oh my God, you don't know this girl."

Trevor Noah 58:59 Yeah, you don't know Billie Eilish.

Ben Winston 59:00 She's like the nicest person.

Trevor Noah 59:00 Yeah, you don't know Billie then.

Ben Winston 59:01 There is no ... Like, she is just the most exceptional human being. But I, I actually think, I, I think what set her off, if I had to guess-

Trevor Noah 59:08 Yeah

Ben Winston 59:08 ... and again, I don't know. I, I really don't know. I don't know her that well. But I think it was the firemen. I actually think the moment of those firemen coming out, because the fires were so close to her and, and whatever. I think those-

Trevor Noah 59:19 Oh, that's interesting

Ben Winston 59:20 ... the firemen made that moment emotional. And, and like I wanted to do the firemen for album. I knew straight away, I was like, "We have to get firemen to give out album."

Trevor Noah 59:27 Yeah.

Ben Winston 59:28 Because that's, because that is the biggest ep- That's the Celine Dion moment-

Trevor Noah 59:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Ben Winston 59:31 ... that we had last year.

Trevor Noah 59:32 Yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 59:32 It's, it's, you know-

Trevor Noah 59:32 It's special

Ben Winston 59:33 ... it's who you'd get. If it wasn't the fires, you'd be asking Paul McCartney-

Trevor Noah 59:36 Yeah, no, it's special

Ben Winston 59:36 ... or Mick Jagger.

Trevor Noah 59:37 Yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 59:37 And so the idea that you get 20 firefighters and you play some emotive music and you come out, I actually think that was a real, um, period or a full stop at the end of the show. Because it was like we've done all these bits. Let's support these local businesses. Let's have this like Gaga-Bruno performance. And then at the end you just see like this powerful 20 firemen giving out, this historic moment that was to Beyonce that made it even more historic. It's the thing that people have been begging for for however many years, and it's a group of firefighters. And I loved your line about this is the easiest job they'll ever have to do.

Trevor Noah 1:00:09 Yeah. [laughs]

Ben Winston 1:00:09 Just give out an award. It's a wonderful line. I loved it. And, um, yeah, I just thought that might have led to the emotion. It was like the person who they grew up loving in Beyonce, someone like Billie.

Trevor Noah 1:00:18 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:00:18 And you got the firefighters there. And the night's gone, like it's, it's been a lovely night. Music's brought people together, and I thought maybe that was why there was so much emotion in the room. But I don't know. I think it was a combination of everything, actually. Because-

Trevor Noah 1:00:29 'Cause you, you were se- you were seated in the room.

Ben Winston 1:00:30 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:00:30 So you, you have an interest-

Ben Winston 1:00:31 We were at a nice table. Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:00:32 ... yeah. So you're seated there. You're not ... Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:00:34 Even before the show started. So if you go back and you listen to everything that leads up to Grammy weekend, right? The pre-parties, et cetera, and so on. That adds to the energy. The vibrancy of the city adds to the energy

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:00:46 And not that the city wasn't vibrant, but things were very different from, I'd say, Wednesday onwards, and that was evident. In the first writing meeting, we already agreed that the tone of the show had to be different.

Trevor Noah 1:00:58 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:00:59 Not to say that the show's gonna be sad, but we're observing a moment.

Trevor Noah 1:01:02 Sure.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:01:02 And then by the time you get to the actual show, everything that you're saying, it ends up being bigger than the sum of its parts. Um, so yes, Beyoncé is emotional because it is a very big moment, but also, you're correct, the people that do hand over the award to her-

Trevor Noah 1:01:16 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:01:16 ... do make it even that much more amplified. So I think it was just, it was all of that coming together, and it ended up being beautiful in a way because if you look at the reviews now, when people speak about the show holistically, they're saying, "Best Grammys in however many years." Because that's really what TV is about. That rollercoaster of emotion is actually quite good sometimes, if you can cry at this one moment, but also end up crying because you're joyful and you're happy that Beyoncé finally clinched the award.

Trevor Noah 1:01:45 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:01:45 That's what makes it beautiful.

Trevor Noah 1:01:46 Mm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:01:47 Um, so it, it ultimately worked out.

Trevor Noah 1:01:49 Yeah, the emotion went, it was, it was really amazing. 'Cause, like, the firefighters were backstage. Man, they're a great group. Like, just, like, just ... You know, 'cause w- what I appreciated what you did there with them was we do a good job of calling on people to help us when we need the help. We forget that they're people as well.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:07 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:02:07 Do you know what I mean? So we call them firefighters, but they're people.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:09 Yeah. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:02:10 And it was cool to meet the people-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:12 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:02:12 ... who are firefighters backstage-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:13 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:02:14 ... and just see them, like, laughing and talking shit. So I was talking to, w- I was talking to one of the, um, one of the pilots who flies the helicopters, and he, like, runs the command of all of them, and he has to manage the airspace, you know, like choreograph what the planes are doing, what the helicopters are doing so that they don't crash in, because you have to wait for the one to go by before the other one can come so that they can drop the water and do the thing. You know what I... It- it's, it's complicated, but you need the water to be coming as quickly as possible. You've got them picking up at the reservoir. So he's telling me this. We're talking about it. We're having... But then and they epitomize the paradox of, of humanity because, on the one hand, he's, he's going, "Yeah, man, this thing was crazy." And he's like, "Man, but this was so great. Thank you for having us," and, "I can't believe this." And he's like, "And Beyoncé took a selfie with..." She took a selfie with every firefighter backstage, by the way.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:55 Did she?

Trevor Noah 1:02:56 Let, let me tell you something. Like-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:02:57 She even thanked them before she accepted the award.

Trevor Noah 1:02:59 You noticed that, right?

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:00 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:03:00 She, by the way, not just thanked them. Beyoncé took the award from both, like, there were two people. She took the award from one, hugged both-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:09 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:03:09 ... looked at both in the eye. And I know some people are like, "Man, what's a, what's the big deal with that?" For me, those are, like, some of the moments where I appreciate the humanity of someone more.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:18 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:03:18 Because when you've won album of the year, it is a lot easy, it's easy ... Anyone who's won an award will know, you, you, you black out.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:25 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:03:26 Like, I don't judge anyone. I remember when, when I won the Emmy, uh, every thought I had before that-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:31 Black out

Trevor Noah 1:03:31 ... you've experienced this. The first time-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:32 Black out

Trevor Noah 1:03:32 ... especially or the ... Like, and it was Beyoncé's first time. You black out. You think you know everything before you come in there, and they say your name. Your mouth goes a little dry. Your, you go, "Wait, what? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait." And she had the, the humanity, I wouldn't even say the presence of mind, to go, "I see you. I see you." Like, it felt very African to me.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:51 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:03:51 And then she, like, then she started with them, and then for me, what was great was seeing it carry on backstage.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:03:57 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:03:57 She, like, took selfies with the ... And, and this is like, you know as an artist, you don't wanna be taking a selfie when you've been crying a little bit and your makeup isn't great, the lighting is not ... No, Beyoncé took all the selfies.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:04:07 That's great.

Trevor Noah 1:04:07 The light was terrible backstage. These people were ... And she was talking to everybody and laughing, and we're there, and we're then, it's like crying, laughing. It, it felt like the full encapsulation of what the night was about, which is what LA feels like it's going through as a place, and which is what every place that goes through a disaster feels like, right? You have the shock of the events happening. You have the, the moment where everyone wonders, like, how bad it's gonna get or how far it'll go. And then from that, in the most clichéd way, you start noticing little sprouts of hope, and then you start seeing resilience, and you see the first smile and the first hug and the fir- y- you know? And, and I think that for me, even on a, on a personal level, was a beautiful encapsulation of all of it. And I think, I can't speak for her, but I think that's what Beyoncé was feeling as well. Remember, man, she didn't get, she didn't get nominated at the Country Music Awards.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:05:04 No.

Trevor Noah 1:05:04 Imagine what it's, what it feels like for Beyoncé.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:05:06 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:05:07 You dabble in this thing called country. Now people think you're dabbling. People don't know how much she loves and grew up on country, you know what I mean? She's a proper Texas girl. Proper. You do this thing, and then Country Music Awards go, "Nah, you didn't even do it to us. Never mind, like, winning. You didn't even do it." [laughs] And you're like, "Damn," you know? And then here you are in an- in another awards show, and you go, "All right. Well, I, I don't know. I don't know what'll happen." As an artist, you might have made a terrible mistake.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:05:37 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:05:38 And so I think it's a culmination of everything. It's the room. It's the night. It's the people. It's the journey. It's her personal journey. It's, it's all of it, and I think everyone else in the room felt that for her and for everything because we want to live in a world where there's a happy ending. We all want that. That's not life, unfortunately. But we all want that, and in a way, that felt like the happy ending. It's the craziest sentence a human being can ever say, but it was like, it was amazing that the underdog won. [laughs] You know, and it's wild to say, like, Beyoncé was the underdog, but that's what it felt like in the room.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:06:14 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:06:15 Whether it was Taylor Swift or Billie Eilish or, or Shaboozey or, you know, Busta Rhymes or, you know, Janelle Monáe or you name it, people were like, "Damn, she did it." And I know people are like, "Yeah, but it's Beyoncé." It's like, no, no, no. But still, in the same way Superman at the end of the movie, we go, "Ah, he got out from, oh, under that building that Zod smashed him with," that's what it felt like, is like we, we've been on this journey, and that was, yeah. It was a ... It w- it was just, like, a magical, real moment to be part of.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:06:44 Did the atmosphere

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:06:45 in the room, because obviously you're hosting it. I'm in a truck in the, in the parking lot basically with all the cameras and everything.

Trevor Noah 1:06:51 Oh, yeah. You're disconnected in a weird way.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:06:52 So I, but I'm sort of in the most connected and also the most disconnected-

Trevor Noah 1:06:55 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:06:55 ... in that I'm across e- every element in some ways, but then you're not ... You're trying to just prece- But the feeling in the room-

Trevor Noah 1:07:01 What was the feeling in the room when Kendrick won? What was the feeling in the room when Beyoncé won? And did the, did the, did the room change during the night? He, he, he, I, I think at the beginning everyone was like, "How are we supposed to be?" But I do feel like at the end there was just a love in there and it was real warmth.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:07:16 100% it did. So in the beginning, as you correctly point out, people are kind of looking for permission to act a certain way, but they don't know how to act until you give them that direction, right? And so in the opening of the show, I think quickly people were there to celebrate artists and music, obviously it's music's biggest night, but you made them observe a moment initially and they're like, "Okay, cool. We're with that." And then slowly the show started to open up-

Trevor Noah 1:07:41 Mm

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:07:41 ... with the performances, obviously the production, et cetera and so on, and people started to feel good about it. Now, when you mention Kendrick, I can tell you right now, everybody, when the Kendrick announcement wa- because it happened twice-

Trevor Noah 1:07:55 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:07:55 ... in the live show, not the three awards he won before. Both those instances when Kendrick won, I think everybody in the building was happy for him. Everybody was happy.

Trevor Noah 1:08:06 Yeah, yeah, they were.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:08:06 Uh, to the point where they literally sang along to Not Like Us-

Trevor Noah 1:08:12 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:08:12 ... until he stepped on stage. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:08:16 I'm a huge Drake fan. I was incensed. [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:08:18 Oh, you were.

Trevor Noah 1:08:19 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:08:19 No, and he is, he is.

Ben Winston 1:08:20 Really.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:08:21 Sizwe was like-

Trevor Noah 1:08:22 [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:08:23 Sizwe was like, "What is this?"

Trevor Noah 1:08:24 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:08:24 When the crowd chanted in unison-

Trevor Noah 1:08:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 1:08:26 "A minor."

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:08:27 Yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 1:08:27 I mean, wow.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:08:28 Yo, but I, I-

Trevor Noah 1:08:29 You were personally hurt.

Ben Winston 1:08:31 But also you're seeing, like, the biggest icons in the world doing it.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:08:34 Yeah, yeah, no.

Trevor Noah 1:08:34 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:08:34 Like, it's not just seeing the crowd doing it-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:08:36 Sizwe was, Sizwe was personally-

Ben Winston 1:08:37 ... you're seeing-

Trevor Noah 1:08:37 Yeah

Ben Winston 1:08:37 ... I had all the cameras and you see Taylor and Beyoncé and they're all singing along. It's-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:08:41 Yep

Ben Winston 1:08:41 ... it's a thing.

Trevor Noah 1:08:41 Let me tell you something, that, that moment was so big that the only texts I've gotten other than, "Congratulations on a Grammys, Con-" The, the n- next number of texts that I've gotten from people without fail, the largest number is this, I'll, like, basically I'll try and sum them all up in one sentence. One of my friends wrote in the best way. He said, "Huh, this was a tough night for you light skins, huh?" [laughs] That's what, that's, that's what people all texted me. "Are you okay?" I was like, "What do you mean am I okay?" They're like, "Yo, yo, that hit Drake so hard I feel like it sort of spilled into you. Are you okay?" I'm like, because it was such a ... And it was organic. That was a-

Ben Winston 1:09:20 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:09:20 ... 'cause the, the room before that-

Ben Winston 1:09:21 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:09:22 ... sort of was observing the night. That song elicited something in them-

Ben Winston 1:09:27 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:09:27 ... where they forgot that they were observing anything.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:09:29 They all participated.

Trevor Noah 1:09:29 And they were just like-

Ben Winston 1:09:30 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:09:30 ... "Ah, sad, sad, sad. A minor."

Ben Winston 1:09:33 Yeah. But I mean-

Trevor Noah 1:09:34 Look, do you think that was-

Ben Winston 1:09:35 Jokes aside though

Trevor Noah 1:09:35 ... do you think that was a turning point, or do you think it was-

Ben Winston 1:09:37 No, I-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:09:37 No, no, no, it had already started to warm up

Ben Winston 1:09:39 ... I think it was a turning point.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:09:39 Yeah, it had started to warm up long before that.

Trevor Noah 1:09:41 Okay.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:09:41 Where,

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:09:42 where would you say the turning point was? I'm interested.

Trevor Noah 1:09:43 I think the, the person who had the most difficult task all night, apart from you, because obviously you had to bring it all together, I think we gave Sabrina Carpenter a really hard task.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:09:51 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:09:52 Yo, can I tell you?

Ben Winston 1:09:52 And I te-

Trevor Noah 1:09:53 Yes.

Ben Winston 1:09:53 I can ta-

Trevor Noah 1:09:54 Go, no, no, go

Ben Winston 1:09:54 ... I can unpack it. So the thing I obsess about more than anything else, the thing I spend more time on than anything else is the running order. What I mean by that is, like, the order of everything from, like-

Trevor Noah 1:10:03 Yeah

Ben Winston 1:10:03 ... where you go, what award, how it ... Firstly, it's a logistical nightmare because you've got to build one set while you're taking another one down, and you've got to time the other one so that this goes up while that goes down. It's like a crazy building process. But act one was Trevor setting the tone, a band The Doors that had lost everything and so therefore, a, a band The Doors who had lost everything and so therefore had, uh, uh, a, almost like an exc- it was like a beautiful moment where we were, like, seeing them and seeing, um, them experience opening the Grammys, which was really beautiful. Then you go in and we come to Trevor, and you're doing your opening. Then Billie Eilish is on, literally on a background-

Trevor Noah 1:10:43 Yeah

Ben Winston 1:10:43 ... that got burnt down-

Trevor Noah 1:10:44 Yeah

Ben Winston 1:10:44 ... but it's where she comes from, and it's a really beautiful song.

Trevor Noah 1:10:47 Mm.

Ben Winston 1:10:47 Then we've got the commercials, which is helping local businesses, and then you get to top of act two, and Sabrina Carpenter has to sing about espresso, and she's doing it while she's doing a comedy act.

Trevor Noah 1:10:56 It was a full-on comedy act.

Ben Winston 1:10:57 And that was the moment where it was like, okay, if we've done the work in part one, if all of those things, Trevor's intro, The Doors, mono but fundraising, let's go big on the fundraising, Billie Eilish, commercials. If those five things have worked, then Sabrina's gonna be okay and this will be great. If not, then everyone's gonna be like, "Why is she falling through the stairs? Do you not know what's going on in the world?"

Trevor Noah 1:11:20 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:11:20 Mm.

Ben Winston 1:11:20 "Hashtag do better", all of that stuff.

Trevor Noah 1:11:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 1:11:22 And l- luckily, I think, because part one went really well, because you did really well, because Billie Eilish was incredible, because The Doors was very moving, and fundamentally Sabrina was unbelievably brilliant-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:11:32 Yeah

Ben Winston 1:11:32 ... and funny and charming and, like, old-school Hollywood glam and-

Trevor Noah 1:11:35 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Ben Winston 1:11:36 ... phenomenal, like, talent, that suddenly everybody was up dancing. At the beginning of the song they were not, by the end of the song they were. By the time they got to Chapel, everybody was up and then for, from Benson all the way, from Benson to Doechii to Teddy to Shaboozey to Raye, it was carnage. Everywhere we looked, people were on their feet, and I was like ... And that was the biggest moment for me. When we finished Best New Artist, I was, like, celebrating with Hamish because I was like, "Actually, whatever happens from, like, the next hour and a half, two hours, like, that was a really beautiful way of taking an audience that you were nervous about, and by the end of Raye they're on their feet, like, going, "This is one of the best things we've seen." And so yeah, that was, that wa- that was the moment, but Sabrina had to turn it.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:12:18 So now on that, because you've now reminded me of something that I observed, and I didn't speak to you about it even after the show, right? You've mentioned about the different set changes. Obviously you got stage left and stage right. During Sabrina's performance, uh, she had the part where she's by the porch.

Ben Winston 1:12:33 Yep.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:12:33 Um, and at the end I think they're supposed to clear the porch so that you can drop the stage on the left-

Ben Winston 1:12:38 Correct, so Cardi B can come out

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:12:39 ... so that Cardi would come out-

Ben Winston 1:12:40 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:12:40 ... for the performance. And I think there was a delay with clearing that. The stage couldn't drop fully. He delivered the link, and I think he had to buy, like, it looked like 20 seconds.

Ben Winston 1:12:50 Correct.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:12:51 My question is, and I've seen these things happen-

Ben Winston 1:12:53 Uh-huh

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:12:53 ... specifically with you, very, very special moments that the viewer doesn't get to understand because they don't know what was meant to happen to begin with.

Ben Winston 1:13:00 Krah.

Trevor Noah 1:13:02 And things will go wrong-

Ben Winston 1:13:03 Mm-hmm

Trevor Noah 1:13:03 ... in a major way.

Ben Winston 1:13:05 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:13:05 I've never seen you, I've never heard you shout, I've never seen you lose your composure. Is that a matter of just experience, or is that how you are as a person?

Ben Winston 1:13:13 Mm. Well, that was Trevor's fault, that moment with Cardi. He doesn't know it, but that was Trevor's fault. I know his, the way he speaks. I know his pace that he speaks.

Trevor Noah 1:13:25 [laughs]

Ben Winston 1:13:25 So when I do a link, I time it out, and I read it as Trevor's voice in my brain, and I time how long it's gonna take to do the porch and for that to come down. I want you to go back, and I want you to watch that. For some reason, and I have no idea why, somebody pressed times four on Trevor Noah, and you whizzed through this link. It didn't matter in any way. You whizzed through a link that you had never, ever whizzed through before. I don't even remember what the link was, but you literally went, "Okay, the fundraising on the thing, da, da, da, da, da, and here's somebody, da, da, da, da, Cardi B" And I was like, oh, my God, what happened? And I, I had forgotten to go, "Hey, I'm gonna need you to read this-

Trevor Noah 1:14:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Ben Winston 1:14:00 ... as your normal human being voice.

Trevor Noah 1:14:02 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:14:02 You whizzed through it, and suddenly I was like, oh, no, the porch isn't clear, so we just cut wide to seven. I, I, do you know what? There's such big things in the show. I, I, you, I don't lose my cool at that. I'm also a bit like, what? The audience is gonna be so surprised that the porch has to be taken away and that, like. I'm also a bit like, it doesn't need, that is the least of our worries. The worry for me was Best New Artist and how we logistically did that, 'cause that was impossible for Hamish and Hayley, our directing team, to do. But, but that moment was just like, well, one of those things. Didn't really bother me.

Trevor Noah 1:14:30 I'll, I'll tell you why I went four times.

Ben Winston 1:14:33 I know.

Trevor Noah 1:14:33 Do you remember doing it?

Ben Winston 1:14:34 No.

Trevor Noah 1:14:34 Yeah, I'll tell you why, but-

Ben Winston 1:14:35 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:14:35 ... I'll tell you after the break. Don't go anywhere 'cause we got more What Now? after this. [upbeat music]

Ben Winston 1:14:48 What was the link?

Trevor Noah 1:14:49 So the link you're talking about was coming out of Sabrina, going into the monologue, going into the table talk, moving around. So as Sizwe says-

Ben Winston 1:15:02 No, it wasn't the monologue.

Trevor Noah 1:15:02 No, it wasn't that? Where, where was it?

Ben Winston 1:15:04 No. No, you were right about the first part. You came out of Sabrina-

Trevor Noah 1:15:06 Came out of Sabrina

Ben Winston 1:15:07 ... and you, you went, you did a whole thing about jokes, leave them to me.

Trevor Noah 1:15:11 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:15:11 But you did them under the applause, so that was done. It, you weren't going into a monologue.

Trevor Noah 1:15:14 Oh, yeah, this was coming out of Sabrina after performing.

Ben Winston 1:15:16 Coming out of Sabrina into Cardi B.

Trevor Noah 1:15:18 Yes. And then going into the-

Ben Winston 1:15:20 It, just into, going into Best Rap Album. It was a small link, but you whizzed through it.

Trevor Noah 1:15:24 So I can ... Okay, I can tell you, but I can tell you what the feeling was. So one of the biggest unknowns coming into this show was where would the audience be?

Ben Winston 1:15:35 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:15:35 Right? How many people are in that room?

Ben Winston 1:15:38 What do you think, 14,000?

Trevor Noah 1:15:40 Yeah, maybe 14. Yeah, somewhere there.

Ben Winston 1:15:42 I mean, if you think, yeah, probably 14,000.

Trevor Noah 1:15:43 Yeah. Now, the weird thing about doing live TV, and especially an award show or anything like that, is you're balancing two balls that are very differently sized. You have the TV audience, which is massive, and then you have the live audience, which is tiny in comparison. However, the live audience has a direct and immediate impact on you.

Ben Winston 1:16:05 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:16:06 The TV audience does not.

Ben Winston 1:16:07 Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:16:08 But now if you ignore the live audience, that is at your peril as a performer because they will never be with you, and if you don't have the room, you don't have the right energy that gets you to where you need to be. In whatever you're saying, they're not listening. They're not paying attention. They're not coming with you. They're not laughing. You name it. If you only pay attention to the room, the person at home is going, "Well, clearly this is not for me."

Ben Winston 1:16:29 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:16:29 "This is taking too long. This is-"

Ben Winston 1:16:31 Mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:16:31 And you've watched an award show where it feels self-indulgent. You're sitting at home, and then the people there are like, "Ah, nice shoes. Ha ha, ha ha, ha ha, ha ha." And you're like, "All right, clearly this is not about me. I'm just watching people." But this is the delicate dance. You are making a show for television, but there aren't 200 people in that room with you. There are 14,000 people in the room with you.

Ben Winston 1:16:53 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:16:54 So they are as important-

Ben Winston 1:16:55 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:16:56 ... in a weird way as the people at home, and yet they, they serve very different purposes. So your pace for the people in the room is different to your p- pace for the people at home. Your pace for a joke is different, your pace for everything. So in these moments, what I'm experiencing is I've just felt where the room is when we've come out of the top of the show, and I've gone, "Damn, we have a lot of work to do tonight because people aren't as celebratory as they normally are."

Ben Winston 1:17:27 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:17:28 So now when people are saying, "How are you?" and "How have you been?" At every table, whether it's Cynthia Erivo talking to Taylor Swift, whether it's John Legend going over and talking to, you know, uh, uh, Esperanza Spalding or whoever it is, everyone there is going, "How are you?" Normally, it's like, "Hey, what's up? How you feeling? Yeah, baby, ooh, look at you." No, now people are, "How are you?" Doesn't matter why.

Ben Winston 1:17:52 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:17:52 How are you? And now I'm going, "Oh, man, this is not where I would do the jokes that I thought I would do, and I've got to move that around." I'm doing all of this in my head here.

Ben Winston 1:18:03 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:18:03 I'm trying to think of how we're shifting things. I'm trying to think of ... And, I mean, you know me well. Both of you do. After every show, I go, "There's a million things I could have done better," you know? But because I know comedy's so precarious, I'm always like, "Ah." It's the death of you. You know? To, to, to what you said at the beginning of the conversation. Like, look at what happened with Jo Koy. I remember, like, everyone, like, laughing, "Oh, Jo Koy's terrible." Then people said to me, they were like, "Aha, Trevor, Jo Koy, that was terrible, right?" I was like, "I take no joy in that." There's li- there's literally no part of me that was like, [laughs] "Yeah, Jo Koy." No, I was going, as a fellow comedian, "Yo, my man, I'm not happy, and I know what that's like as a feeling." You know? Any performer who's had it, especially a stand-up comedian, I'll never look at them and be like, "Yeah, you idiot." No. And it also compounds because the more you lose the room-

Ben Winston 1:18:47 Oh, my friend

Trevor Noah 1:18:47 ... the worse your performance becomes, and then even less compelling to even the viewer now.

Ben Winston 1:18:52 My friend, my friend, you, you know it very well. So in this moment, I'm going, "We have to edit what the show is or isn't going to be," because I've responded to what's happened in, like, the monologue, and I've felt ... Because I'm, you know me. I'm doing it dynamically.

Trevor Noah 1:19:08 Yeah. For sure.

Ben Winston 1:19:08 I'm trying to feel where the people are. Because contrary to popular belief, you know, and I wish, like, people would understand this, especially online. There is almost no comedian

Trevor Noah 1:19:19 That is getting on stage to try and make you feel shit. The very act of being a comedian is people who want to go on stage to make other people feel better. They like a laugh. They like making people laugh, right? But now, as, as, like, the aperture has expanded and as, like, things are moved out of context, people are subjected to comedy that they maybe didn't ask for or they're watching something that isn't for them. And I understand that, you know. That's the nature of, of entertainment and TV and social media in particular, clipping of things, et cetera, right? So I know as a performer, oh, man, if I don't get that right or if that moves or if I didn't get the... It's gonna create the wrong ripple effect for the show, not even for me.

Ben Winston 1:20:03 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:20:03 And I don't want the show to have that kind of feeling. I don't want people coming up and... If I'm having a terrible time, Cardi B doesn't come on and, and, like, laugh and giggle when she's presenting the award.

Ben Winston 1:20:12 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:20:12 If I'm having a terrible time, Gloria Estefan doesn't come on, like-

Ben Winston 1:20:15 No

Trevor Noah 1:20:15 ... "Thanks, Trevor," and a little fun little bounce in her vibe. If I'm having a terrible time, J.Lo and Heidi Klum don't pull off Benson Boone's outfit the same way. Now, they go like, "Ugh."

Ben Winston 1:20:25 Can we do this?

Trevor Noah 1:20:25 Can we pull off this guy's... I don't know if I wanna be part of... Jim Gaffigan is not jumping in.

Ben Winston 1:20:30 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:20:30 You know, which for me was my favorite joke of the night.

Ben Winston 1:20:32 It was a really funny joke.

Trevor Noah 1:20:33 Easily.

Ben Winston 1:20:33 It was a really funny joke.

Trevor Noah 1:20:34 And shout out, shout out to Jim. Let me tell you something, man. There are few things I love more than comedians who love jokes more than anything else.

Ben Winston 1:20:42 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:20:42 'Cause, like, the reason I say shout out to Jim Gaffigan, he's one of my favorite human beings, he's one of my favorite comedians by far. I didn't tell Jim Gaffigan that this was gonna happen.

Ben Winston 1:20:51 No.

Trevor Noah 1:20:52 I didn't prep- I didn't prompt him, I didn't preempt it, I didn't do anything. And I'm sorry, Jim. I really apologize, but I only thought about it the day of because the writers, right? So the night before the Grammys-

Ben Winston 1:21:03 Yeah, it only happened that day, didn't it?

Trevor Noah 1:21:04 Yeah. Night before the Grammys, Luka gets traded to, um-

Ben Winston 1:21:09 The Lakers.

Trevor Noah 1:21:09 The Lakers.

Ben Winston 1:21:10 Yeah, mm-hmm.

Trevor Noah 1:21:10 Anthony Davis goes to the Mavericks.

Ben Winston 1:21:12 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:21:13 Massive news. Sizwe messages me first thing in the morning. He's like, "Yo, big things happened." I'm like, "Yep, I know." Dan Amira, one of the writers on the, on the team, he messages me. He's like, "We've gotta make a joke about this. There's gotta be a trade joke or something." So I'm like, "All right. We've gotta, we gotta do something. We'll figure it out." I get to the venue, I'm like, "Okay, I got it. I got it." I'm looking at the seating chart and I go, Jim Gaffigan gets up coming back from an ad break. Now I'm like, "I'm screwing Ben. I hope I'm not." So I'm trying to find the least impactful place where this could happen.

Ben Winston 1:21:39 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:21:40 So I go-

Ben Winston 1:21:40 I loved it.

Trevor Noah 1:21:41 So I go, "Let's get Jim Gaffigan to stand up and say, 'Welcome back. During the break, Trevor Noah was traded to Dallas, and so I'm now your host. I know. I'm, I'm as shocked as you are.'" People love it in the room. We pitch it to you. You love it. Everyone's like, "This is gonna be great." And then like you, I made the giant producer's mistake. I didn't ask Jim Gaffigan. [laughs]

Ben Winston 1:22:01 [laughs] Yeah, that was happening during the show, 'cause I said, "Is Gaffigan in?"

Trevor Noah 1:22:05 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:22:06 "Has anyone spoken to Gaffigan?" And Kate Dowd, who was with you, she went, "Not that I'm aware of."

Trevor Noah 1:22:10 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:22:10 I was like, "Well, somebody might need to go and tell Jim Gaffigan that we've written a joke for him."

Trevor Noah 1:22:14 Nobody had spoken to Jim Gaffigan. And then I... This, this is a mess. This is where, like, literally like you, I made a massive assumption. I go, Jim Gaffigan, if you know anything about his comedy, his writing, the way he creates shows and who he is, this man has an insatiable appetite for jokes. Jim Gaffigan loves funny. So I made the mistake as a fan of his, not even as, like, a peer.

Ben Winston 1:22:36 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:22:36 As a fan of his, I went, "There's no way Jim Gaffigan wouldn't love this." And I thought, "I'm just gonna go up to him right before he has to do it and tell him." I also know that Jim Gaffigan can host shows.

Ben Winston 1:22:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:22:45 I also know that he's fantastic-

Ben Winston 1:22:46 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:22:46 ... and he's calm under pressure. He's, like, Jim Gaffigan is a stone cold killer in that way. You know what I mean? So in my head, I made all these assumptions and then at the last minute someone said, "Has anyone spoken to Jim Gaffigan?" And I, I went with you. I was like, with everyone, I was like, "No." And then I said, "I'll go." And I went and I found Jim on the floor. This was, like, maybe, like, a two acts sort of in, so I think it was after Sabrina Carpenter and all of that.

Ben Winston 1:23:11 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:23:11 And I went, "Jim, there's a joke. Here's the joke," and I pitched it to him. Thank God he immediately found it funny.

Ben Winston 1:23:16 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:23:16 And I was like, "Please, this is how, you know, I, I trust you, but this is how it needs to be performed. And then the Red Hot Chili Peppers are coming, and I need you to not diminish their moment."

Ben Winston 1:23:23 Oh, yeah, because that's the only thing I said to you, didn't I?

Trevor Noah 1:23:25 Yeah, because I was like, "We've promised them this is... These guys-"

Ben Winston 1:23:27 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:23:27 "... this is Californication."

Ben Winston 1:23:28 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:23:28 "These guys are coming out for LA. Their thing can't be goofy, please." And Jim, the consummate professional-

Ben Winston 1:23:34 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:23:34 ... the best comedian out there doing his thing, like, got up there and then honestly, like, that moment for me as well was such a, it was such a, like, wonderful team moment.

Ben Winston 1:23:45 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:23:45 I mean, you heard the room. Easily my favorite joke of the night.

Ben Winston 1:23:48 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:23:48 Like, by far, by far, by far.

Ben Winston 1:23:48 A lot of people, a lot of people were saying that as well.

Trevor Noah 1:23:50 Easily my favorite joke of the night.

Ben Winston 1:23:52 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:23:52 Easily.

Ben Winston 1:23:52 But that's why I don't think... I think the room was better than you think it was in so many ways. I think you-

Trevor Noah 1:23:56 No, no, no, no, no.

Ben Winston 1:23:56 By, by the time you got to act three, it was. It was like-

Trevor Noah 1:23:59 No, no, no. So-

Ben Winston 1:23:59 They loved it.

Trevor Noah 1:24:00 Yeah, I... So what I'm saying is this. Like, I'm also measuring it by how much I can contribute and what I can do.

Ben Winston 1:24:06 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:24:06 Not judging the room.

Ben Winston 1:24:07 No, I understand.

Trevor Noah 1:24:08 But I know that as Trevor, there's certain things I should be, you know, certain marks I should be hitting-

Ben Winston 1:24:12 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:24:13 ... or certain, certain connections that I should be making. But, uh, you know, you, you know this. Like, making a live show is like flying a plane and then discovering something's wrong with it while it's flying.

Ben Winston 1:24:25 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:24:25 And you have to fix it.

Ben Winston 1:24:26 Yeah, 100%.

Trevor Noah 1:24:27 Oh, the wing is loose, but we can't land. It's live.

Ben Winston 1:24:29 Ugh.

Trevor Noah 1:24:30 A normal TV show, you go, "Cut, cut, cut, cut."

Ben Winston 1:24:31 That's happened. [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:24:32 "All right, everybody. Hey, let's land the plane. Uh, let's fix the wing." Live show doesn't do that. Live show goes, "We are flying and there's a massive error. Can somebody, uh, go down and check on the landing gear while we're flying? Uh, someone go check the wing while we're flying. Hey, check the, the windscreen, check the apparatus, check the equipment, check the... while we're flying."

Ben Winston 1:24:50 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:24:50 So I, even as Trevor as a comedian, there's moments where the show is happening and I'm going, "Ah, I would have done that differently. I could have done that differently. The person I was looking at wasn't there. So then I have to change this. I'm gonna move, then I'm gonna da, da, ba, ba, ba." But it's live.

Ben Winston 1:25:03 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:25:04 I don't wanna mess up your timing. It's not about me. So if I miss with a joke or anything-

Ben Winston 1:25:08 Yeah

Trevor Noah 1:25:08 ... the show keeps moving.

Ben Winston 1:25:09 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:25:09 I can't be like, "Wait, wait, hold on, audience. Let me give you 10 minutes that I know is gonna..."

Ben Winston 1:25:13 No.

Trevor Noah 1:25:13 No.

Ben Winston 1:25:13 But what you are good at, and this is where I actually messed up, I think, in, in, in the bit with Cardi, which is what started this discussion, was that I just wasn't on my timings. And, and I'm always in his ear the whole show and I'll be like, "I need you, I need you-"

Trevor Noah 1:25:25 Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Ben Winston 1:25:26 "I need you to, to, like, go a bit longer here."

Trevor Noah 1:25:28 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:25:29 Beyonce's not in her seat for country album.

Trevor Noah 1:25:31 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:25:31 The Weeknd's set isn't set. You know, all of those things, and you're unbelievable at... Like, there was one bit where you stood next to Billie Eilish and I said, "Mate, I really need a favor. I'm so sorry. I, I, like, I know this is a quick link, but I need you to fill for, like, a minute." And you stand there and it's the most natural thing. I watched the show last night. I, I sat in my house. Harvey came over and we watched it. We got a curry and we watched it together, 'cause I can actually enjoy it and that you're brilliant. You stand there and go, "Hey," you, you're like, um, "Hey, Billie, how you doing?" And she's like, "Uh-oh." And you do a whole thing.

Trevor Noah 1:25:57 No, but you see, so-

Ben Winston 1:25:58 You do a whole thing

Trevor Noah 1:25:59 ... like, I'm not gonna say anything

Ben Winston 1:25:59 Yeah, but no-

Trevor Noah 1:26:00 I could say something, but-

Ben Winston 1:26:01 But it was because I needed the time, and meanwhile everyone's building the set-

Trevor Noah 1:26:04 Yes

Ben Winston 1:26:04 ... or whatever, and you're just, you found it. No one would ever know that I'm in your ear going-

Trevor Noah 1:26:08 But this is-

Ben Winston 1:26:08 ... "Take a bit longer."

Trevor Noah 1:26:09 Yes, but this is also where people sort of, I wish they could be in my brain for some of these moments. This is, like, one of the moments I'm talking about. We're coming back from an ad break, all right? Right before we come back, you say, "Trevor, we need extra time." I go, "Okay, that's fine. We need extra time, I'm here." You're like, "Yeah, speak to anyone or whatever." So I'm right there. I look down and I go, "Who's around me?" I'm like, "Oh, Billie Eilish is here and Finneas is here." But now literally we're coming back and three, two, one, just before we go, like, action essentially to me-

Ben Winston 1:26:39 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:26:40 ... Billie looks at me with terror in her eyes.

Ben Winston 1:26:42 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:26:42 And she goes, "Uh-oh." But she doesn't go uh-oh like a funny uh-oh, she goes like, like she goes, "Uh-oh," like, "Please don't do this to me." Now I wasn't gonna do anything to her, but now I'm like, "Oh, man, I, I don't even want it to seem like I was doing something to her," because here's the thing that people also don't get, right? I know it's easy to put people up on pedestals, and like they're artists and they've won awards and the... Yo, I, I know it's hard to imagine this, but there are human beings under all of these veneers. There are human beings under these Twitter handles, there are human beings under the dress rehearsal, there's human beings under the, like, top s- you name a top album, there's a human being under it. And the, my job for me as Trevor is I'm not coming in there to make your night less fun or less enjoyable, because you are also on the edge of your seat wondering if you're gonna win a Grammy.

Ben Winston 1:27:32 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:27:32 You're wondering if your work is gonna be lauded, you're wondering if you're gonna be rewarded by your peers, by the thing that you've spent so much time doing. Nobody wants to lose. Nobody wants to be a loser. No one wants people to, like, laugh at them. I don't care who you are, nobody wants that feeling. So for me as the host, I'm looking down at this person who's now just gone like, "Man..." And I've been with Billie Eilish f- like, at all the Grammys. This is the first time she's ever done that. Billie's never looked at me and gone, "Uh-oh."

Ben Winston 1:27:59 [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:27:59 She's, her and Finneas look at me like, "What's up? Hey. Hey." This is the first time she went, "Uh-oh," like, and I was like, "Ah, but now we're live. Now, now what are we doing?" That, so then-

Ben Winston 1:28:08 And you still need to fill for another 45 minutes

Trevor Noah 1:28:10 ... yeah, and now you can't say what it was, but I needed it.

Ben Winston 1:28:11 You're so good at it.

Trevor Noah 1:28:12 And so now I said, that's why I said the honest thing, which was like, "Billie, I don't know why you're saying oh, I'm not gonna..." And she like, she, she's looking at me like, "I don't trust you. This is coming."

Ben Winston 1:28:20 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:28:20 And so that moment is honest and, and, and I think that's sometimes the thing that people miss in a lot of these moments, you know? Like, when was it? Like, right after the Grammys, for instance, w- it was, I think it was you, no, maybe Xolisa or someone contacted me. They're like, "Hey man, how do you feel? Some people are, like, feeling bad about, like, some of the jokes or whatever on the show." And I was like, "I get it, but I..." Like, the, the one thing that I wish people would get with comedy, comedians, I don't speak for everyone, but I think I speak for most comedians, we're trying to

Trevor Noah 1:28:50 make people laugh, we're trying to have a good time, right? The hardest place to experience a collective safe comedy show is where everyone isn't the same. And the Grammys, for instance, is the best place for strangers and people who don't normally come together to come together. But it's also one of the most precarious places for comedy.

Ben Winston 1:29:11 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:29:12 Because the number one thing that comedy needs is context.

Ben Winston 1:29:14 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:29:15 Do you know what I mean? So, like, I saw someone who said, "You arrogant American, how can you say this shit about my people?" Then I was like, "I'm, I'm not American." Someone was like, "How could you make that joke about immigrants? How dare you? You know, you American, what..." Then I was like, "Oh, I thought you knew that I was an, I was an immigrant." [laughs] Do you get... No, but those are small things that you can take for granted as a performer.

Ben Winston 1:29:37 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:29:37 You go, "Oh, yeah, because you've tuned into the show for an artist that maybe you never tune in for, you don't, you don't know me, and you don't, you, you have this assumption."

Ben Winston 1:29:45 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:29:46 "The show's in America. This person's talking about LA. Uh, yeah, that's an American." I'm like, "No, no, I, I'm, I'm an, I'm an immigrant." I'm making a joke about the idea of immigrants by some people in, and, and those are the moments where you go like, "Ah, damn, I'm always-"

Ben Winston 1:29:57 But does it bother you that people, like, d- does it get to you? Because the majority of stuff is positive, but yet you're, you'll think about the negative.

Trevor Noah 1:30:04 So, no. So I, I don't think of it, it's a weird one to say. I don't think of it personally, because I don't think it's personal. There's two things that I do whenever I look at any type of outrage or any time, type of criticism. Actually, three things. Number one, I always acknowledge that the size and scope of it are a lot smaller than, than we think, you know? And you often say this, Sizwe, in general. How many people are saying a thing-

Ben Winston 1:30:30 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:30:30 ... is oftentimes nowhere near to, you know, the amount of people saying it. It's just a few people can be loud. That's the first thing I think of. The second one is it affects me on a professional level because then I go, I always take it on me, I go, "I didn't do that properly." You know, one of my favorite things I heard was, um, I don't think it, he, he's credited with it, but I loved Anthony Jeselnik was on a, on a podcast and was talking about comedy and the idea, and he said something that I, that I loved and is true. He said, "Art is getting away with it." You know? And so I don't care who you are as a comedian, you know, whether you are Dave Chappelle or Chris Rock or Trevor Noah, Anthony Jeselnik or Jim Gaffigan or Kitty Flanagan or you name it. Getting away with it is what makes it. It means that the people have fully understood the context that you were delivering a joke with, and you managed to bring them into your world to say it. That's why a comedian can make a joke about, you know, uh, the most heinous things. You know, j- uh, we talk about this all the time i- in England with, like, Jimmy Carr. Jimmy's saying the most horrible things. You know, or would, you know, killing his family jokes or, uh, jokes about, like, mass murder, whatever it is. But because the audience knows he's Jimmy and they know that this is a joke, there's a full context.

Ben Winston 1:31:45 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:31:45 As soon as the context gets removed, people react or respond differently. You know what I mean?

Ben Winston 1:31:49 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:31:50 And so on a professional level, I just always, it's a good reminder to me always to go like, "All right, you can, you can work a little bit better." How do you craft that perfect joke? Like, um, uh, Chappelle when he was on SNL, for me, that was one of his best performances I've ever seen, and I told him. I was like, "Yo, the way you..." Think of the line when he says- People were laughing at people, uh, celebrities losing their houses. People like, "Yeah, burn your house, burn your house." And then he goes, "And that's why I hate poor people."

Ben Winston 1:32:15 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:32:16 If you miss with that joke, the headline is Dave Chappelle says he hates poor people.

Ben Winston 1:32:22 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:32:22 But that man delivered it with such precision and perfection in the moment, in the tone, in the everything, that everyone knew it was a joke, and they knew that it was a misdirect and what he was... It worked. You, you, you don't even have to get technical. It worked, right? And so as a comedian, when I miss, I don't go, "Screw the audience." I go, "Ah, a little, little bit, you know, you could-

Ben Winston 1:32:45 Mm. Finesse

Trevor Noah 1:32:46 ... try, try s- yeah, try, try something different there. Move that around. Where's the audience? How do you meet them? What are they thinking? What are they not thinking? 'Cause my intention is never to go out there and, uh, that's not what I'm doing, so it doesn't affect me. The third thing I do is try and contextualize it all, and I think that's one of the great things that I've enjoyed about working on the Grammys. We live in a world where people are spending less and less time with people who are not like them. We live in silos. People don't mix with people from other religions. People don't have conversations with someone who has a different political point of view. People aren't sitting down at tables with somebody who listens to different music. It's not happening as much as it used to, right? You know, we talked in one of the previous episodes with, um, MKBHD, Marques Brownlee. We talked about, like, this idea of the, the audience of one, how the For You page on social media is a fantastic invention, but it's also taken something away from society that we never knew we needed, which was to have a collective page. Did you see the thing? You saw the thing.

Ben Winston 1:33:50 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:33:50 I saw the thing.

Ben Winston 1:33:52 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:33:52 There's fewer and fewer instances of that. It's the Super Bowl. It's the World Cup. It's the Grammys. You know what I mean? Your For You page, my For You page can be completely different, so what we think reality is is completely different. None, none of us is wrong, but it's different, and so what I do is I contextualize it. And the reason I say the Grammys has helped me do that is because I have been at five Grammys now, and I've watched how people have been offended. By the way, not by me. I've been lucky. Like, people have been great, like, for most of it. But, like, I've seen people get offended at Sam Smith's performance-

Ben Winston 1:34:25 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:34:25 ... that one year.

Ben Winston 1:34:26 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:34:26 People that get offended.

Ben Winston 1:34:28 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:34:28 How could he? How, wh- what, h- how, the, how... I've seen people get offended by, you know, like, oh, Shakira, really? There are children watching, and you're gonna dance like... And it's like, it's like, no, no, no, the context, because they didn't... If you know Shakira, you know this is Shakira. This is great. I've seen people get offended by a rap act that's come on, and someone hears, like, one or two of the lyrics, and they're like, "How can they say... You're gonna put that person on-

Ben Winston 1:34:51 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:34:51 ... a public television show and let them say that? How, how could they say that sentence?" I've seen people get offended by how some of the artists are dressed during a show, you know? This is family viewing. How could... I've seen some people get offended just because an artist performs after another artist. I've seen, the downside of humans coming together who are not homogenous is there's likely to be more offense. The upside is that's when you get the most beautiful tapestry, and I think that's what we experienced on the night. I saw people stand and cheer for Doechii because they had discovered her with that performance. Doechii knew Doechii.

Ben Winston 1:35:33 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:35:33 But people were standing up like, "Man, I just discovered Doechii."

Ben Winston 1:35:37 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:35:38 People were standing and cheering for artists because they're like, "I never, I never"... Chappell Roan, they're like, "Is this what a Chappell Roan is?"

Ben Winston 1:35:45 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:35:46 Charli XCX, I saw old people start, like, going like, "Ah, I don't know what this is." Yo, The Weeknd, that whole laser show, the whole... And I, and I think that thing for me, I might be in the minority, but I think the risk of people being offended for me is worth bearing if it means we're all at least in the same space to be offended. Because I think society needs more of that. And so honestly, on a personal level, I always just put my head down and I go, "Do better, Trevor." And I don't mean do better, like change the subject. I go like, "No, how can you then in, in future create something where the context isn't lost?" If I make a joke and the point of the joke is what it is, and then you get angry, I really don't care. But if you go, "Oh, you-

Ben Winston 1:36:30 Right

Trevor Noah 1:36:30 ... you said this and it w- it meant that," I'm like, "No, no, no, that's not what I meant." Then I go, "Okay."

Ben Winston 1:36:35 Then I needed to do better by-

Trevor Noah 1:36:36 Yeah, I go, "As a comedian"

Ben Winston 1:36:37 ... explaining that context.

Trevor Noah 1:36:37 "Yeah, man, I go as a comedian." I'm like, "Okay."

Ben Winston 1:36:39 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:36:39 And I, and I look at a joke and I go, "Tell it 10 other different ways. How could you tell it in 10 different ways-

Ben Winston 1:36:46 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:36:46 ... so that the person who's listening to it would feel different about it?"

Ben Winston 1:36:48 It's d- it's a different world that we live in now. This is going off from the Grammys really. But, like, and for you, when you do this podcast, right, and you're out there and you're doing Daily Show, when you used to do it-

Trevor Noah 1:36:58 Right

Ben Winston 1:36:58 ... you're doing comedy, you're doing things. You, you're now talking to an audience that often will be offended for no reason, but sometimes might be offended for a reason. Do you have to change, in the last few years, do you think you've had to change the way you are because of the way people react to stuff now? Do, do you over-censor yourself? Are you more cautious in the way you speak? Are you worried about that? Does that, or do you still have just the freedom to say whatever you think is right and funny?

Trevor Noah 1:37:23 I actually think I've gone the opposite way.

Ben Winston 1:37:25 Wow.

Trevor Noah 1:37:26 And I'll tell you why. When I was hosting The Daily Show, I wasn't just hosting The Daily Show. I was executive producing The Daily Show. I was, in effect, the employer of 170-odd people. I think at the peak, 190 people. Me and my other executive producers, this is our job, is to not just make a good show, but keep these people employed. Like, that's the pressure that comes with hosting a show-

Ben Winston 1:37:51 Mm

Trevor Noah 1:37:51 ... is that if you get kicked off the air, it's not just me. It's my camera guys, it's my team, it's my this, it's my... And so in my head I'm going, "Us fails, not me fails. Us fails." Right? So if I say something that hurts this collective, can I stand by that? "Oh, Trevor, you made this joke and now The Daily Show doesn't exist anymore." And I'm like, "Yeah, I don't care." Yeah, but I do care. 'cause I, you know, I, I know Benny's kid. Uh, I, I, I do care. Do you know what I mean? I, I hang out with Zach. I do c- I do care.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:38:22 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:38:23 So that's the bigger thing for me. Now I'm a lot more nimble. And secondly, I also believe, you know, and Erin, who d- who, who, um, who does my hair for not just for the, but for the Grammys and a bunch of things here in LA, she said it beautifully the other day. She said, "I feel like we're moving into the age of authenticity." And I believe that. And so I go, you know, we talked to, to Marques about it on the show. We, we talk about with everything. Yo, man, I, I no longer live in a space where I think things should be about, like, the publicity or the PR of it. If someone says to me, "I didn't like that joke," I go, "Tell me why." And they tell me, and I go, "Oh, yeah, that's, that's not what I meant, but thanks for the note, and I'm gonna try and tweak something or move it." I won't not say things. What I am more cognizant of, though, is that we have lost so much context. So even when I'm in South Africa doing a podcast with Sizwe and Anele, or even if I'm telling a joke in Abu Dhabi, or if I'm doing, like, a TV show in Sydney, Australia, I know that that joke doesn't end in Australia anymore.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:39:29 Right.

Trevor Noah 1:39:29 I know that that podcast doesn't end in South Africa anymore. I know that the Grammys doesn't end in LA anymore.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:39:36 Mm.

Trevor Noah 1:39:36 And so now what I'm trying to do, which is very hard, I'm not even saying it, like, in a woe is me way. I actually, I actually like hard things. I like challenges. I go, "Wow, how do you tell a joke that maintains its context across borders?" It's almost impossible, but I love the opportunity and the challenge, and so now I actually say more, but I spend more time trying to get to the context. Does that make sense?

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:40:01 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:40:02 Does-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:40:02 So now, Ben, to you, right? I guess in the same vein, when you used to do The Late Late Show-

Trevor Noah 1:40:10 Mm-hmm

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:40:10 ... which obviously you used to, you're also EP of, that was, in some ways, an extension of the work you do at the Grammys. So, for example, the week leading up to the Grammys, sometimes you'd have a guest on that would roll forward to the Grammys. And if anything were to happen, because it's only one night at the Grammys, if anything were to happen on the Sunday evening, you'd have had an opportunity maybe on the Monday evening to interview whomever the person was, clarify whatever needed to be clarified, et cetera and so on. Without The Late Late Show now, do you find that you don't get to do a do-over? Does, is that something that-

Trevor Noah 1:40:41 Mm

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:40:42 ... actually filters into your mind at all? Because I used to obviously see the synergy between the two shows.

Trevor Noah 1:40:47 Right.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:40:47 Just having, you know, been around in proximity to you guys, I'd see how the one would work with the other.

Ben Winston 1:40:55 Yeah, I, I think I miss, with The Late Late Show, it's not specifically missing replying to something that's happened, 'cause I don't, I don't think, I don't think the stuff I would ever go in is ever goes into that contro- controversial. The Grammys, I can think of two moments probably in the five Grammys I've done, including last night's or whenever it was, two nights ago. That was, I got a bit of stick for WAP with Cardi and Megan Thee Stallion.

Trevor Noah 1:41:20 Oh, yeah, I remember. I remember that.

Ben Winston 1:41:22 My answer on that one was Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion wanted to do that performance. They were excited about it, and who am I to say, "No, actually, I..." Who am I to censor that and say, "No, you shouldn't do that. You need to be more like this"? That's just not ever the job of someone like me. And then the Sam Smith one also, you're right. It did. People, people got, I got texts from a couple of people, uh, um, who were like, "It was inappropriate," more from the religious perspective, because he was dressed like a devil.

Trevor Noah 1:41:47 Not, yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. No.

Ben Winston 1:41:48 And people were, there was a couple people who said, you know, "I, I don't think I'll be able to watch the Grammys anymore because of that." And I loved that performance, and I thought it was amazing. But, like, I, I have to say, I've pr- I've probably changed a little bit. I've got two little girls now. I had them then, but maybe they're of an age where they're repeating stuff. And they were, you know, sitting in the front row at the dress rehearsal, watching Charli XCX, and I was a bit like, "Oh, God, my five-year-old's, like, grinding."

Trevor Noah 1:42:09 [laughs]

Ben Winston 1:42:10 Like, throwing panties in the air. And I'm like, "Oh, no, what have I done?" But I'm probably a bit more conscious of it. I was a bit more, like, gung-ho maybe five years ago, and now I am a bit more conscious that, uh, you know, you are making a show that you want America to feel comfortable watching, not just your America. And so I'm very, uh, aware of that, and I think that that, that comes into me. As for what, like, The Late Late Show, I don't miss being able to respond, because it's James's show, not mine. Yes, I was the showrunner-

Trevor Noah 1:42:35 No, no, no

Ben Winston 1:42:35 ... with Rob, but it was James' show. What I miss is something will happen in the world, and you have no outlet to make a joke about it or make a sketch about it, or there'll be something that happens in pop culture, and you'll be like, "Oh, this is a great idea for, like, a spoof music video." I miss that hugely, um, but not in response to work that I'm doing really. That's, that's not what I miss. But I, but, but I definitely miss that power of creating an hour of television every day, because it was just the most remarkable thing. I think about the Grammys, and it's, like, months of work for, like, that four hours, whereas at least The Late Late Show, you turn up every morning, you have a blank page-

Trevor Noah 1:43:09 Yep

Ben Winston 1:43:09 ... and you can do whatever you want, and that next day you can't celebrate the good ones or mourn the bad ones, because you've got another one tomorrow. You know, whereas if something goes wrong at the Grammys, and luckily it didn't, and in fact, I was happier than I've ever been after this Grammys, weirdly. I felt the most, like, weight off my shoulders at the end. I don't know if you felt that from me afterwards.

Trevor Noah 1:43:27 No, I did. I did. Well, y- because we had the, we had, like, no technical issues.

Ben Winston 1:43:31 We had no technical issues, and it had gone well, and I really felt like everything that we wanted, we'd, but, you know, you had done that high wire act brilliantly, and the performances had worked. So it wasn't my favorite Grammys that we've done, even though everyone's saying, "Oh, best Grammys ever."

Trevor Noah 1:43:44 I was actually about to ask you that.

Ben Winston 1:43:45 It wasn't my favorite Grammys ever, but it was the biggest relief I've had, because, um, I was just like, "Oh, man, thank God it's over. The weekend didn't get leaked." Like, that was a secret-

Trevor Noah 1:43:55 Oh, yeah

Ben Winston 1:43:56 ... I'd been carrying for a long time.

Trevor Noah 1:43:57 That was, that was huge. That was huge.

Ben Winston 1:43:57 And Best New Artist is something I've wanted to do for so long, and yeah, I just thought it all worked really well. And I thought the other thing is, you know, that thing that you carry around, and the voting is nothing to do with me. I don't even have a vote. Of course I don't. But everyone going, "You know, Beyoncé's got to win album of the year."

Trevor Noah 1:44:13 Oh, that was, you're just talking-

Ben Winston 1:44:14 It's like a relief that it happened

Trevor Noah 1:44:15 But also talking about, like, offense, I personally have gotten texts that have been delivered to me through, like, I don't even know how, like, people know what person, know, literally people being like How dare you say Beyoncé made a country album? Do you- Let me tell you something. The, don't you dare... But, but like people f- like people fighting with me, by the way. Like, I made a category. Like, I vote. Yeah. Like, I chose... Uh, I'm gonna- Yeah. I'm even going like, okay, first of all- [laughs] ... I don't know how you got this to me, but I also cannot do anything for you. [laughs] Me, myself, as Trevor, I cannot do anything for you, right? Same. But, but it, but that's what I mean by, like, offense in that way. And, and here's the thing. Here's the thing that's, that's, that's tough in life. What's tough in life is we should always remember that the car crash gets the most attention. Yeah. Right? I- And it's, it's the way humans are designed. You know, sometimes we try and make it insidious. Oh, the news companies, they, they'll always cut to the thing. Yeah, but also as humans, we look at the car crash. How was your drive? Man, there was a massive accident. How was your drive? Uh, I, I don't even know. You don't report the fact that the highway moved freely. You report the fact that there was a giant pileup, okay? So I also understand this, and I try to remind myself of it and think of it for people. But, like, what I appreciate, I, I will say of the Grammys, so when I have the phrase like, "It's not my favorite Grammys," I'm only talking on like a technical level- Sure ... and on a, like, ease of, you know, it's like- It's a beauty ... if I was, if I was a pilot, I was going- Mm ... it's not my favorite flight because of the storm- Yeah ... and the turbulence and all of that. Yeah. However, and I mean this honestly, getting to the end of that show, seeing the types of hugs that people were giving each other, seeing the way that people were responding to what had happened, seeing Doechii, like, celebrating- Yeah ... her performance backstage, like, you know, like the greatest moment ever, when she's like, "We did that shit" you know what I mean? Mm. Seeing, like everyone, every single person experience something so special, you know, whether it's like Bruno, like Bruno Mars, people don't know how much that guy loves music- Mm ... and, and doing it well. So to, you know, to see, to see that in every way, and then on top of that, ended with, like, firefighters coming up to us. Even when people are like, "Thank you," and I was like, "You can't thank me." Hm. Firefighters coming up and they- [laughs] ... "Man, thank you so much." And, and I'll be honest, that's what keeps me going. Yeah. And I always say, um, there's this phrase I, I, I, I... It came into my head a few years ago and it was, "Let everything you experience in life be a quest- be an answer to a question you already have." That's what I said to myself. "Let everything that happens to you in life be an answer to a question you already have." And I was like, you don't know what the question may be, but when something happens to you, let it be an answer. So your car is taking long, you've given the car to a valet or something. It's not coming, and you're standing there and you... Maybe the answer to your question, am I a patient person, is being answered right now. Do you know what I'm saying? Mm. It's an answer to that question. Someone says to you, "Hey, uh, your shirt looks nice." And you go, "Oh, thank you," and you feel something. That's an answer to the question, do I care how people think I'm dressed? Take it the way you want to, but it's an answer to a question you didn't know you had. And for me personally, when, like, a firefighter comes up to me and goes, you know, like, uh, one of the, like the, I think it was one of the chiefs, she was standing on stage- Sheila, yeah ... do- doing, yeah, Sheila doing- Yeah ... the actual award. Mm-hmm. Sheila came to me and she went, "You." And I was like, "Oh, God." Oh. And she went, she's like, "I've got a bone to pick with you, kid." And I was like, "What?" She's like, "You gave me so many amazing years at The Daily Show, and then you go off and live life." [laughs] She's funny, though. And she really is. Yeah, yeah. And she's like, "And you just leave me like this?" Ha. She's like, "I'm glad you're doing everything else you're doing, but ooh." [laughs] And she's like, "Give me a hug." And it's like that moment, and then like the- What was the question that she answered in that moment, though? The, the question that she answered for me- Finish the thought ... was w- am I doing it for anybody? Right. Does it mean anything to anybody else? You know, is it, is it like... 'Cause I, I'll, I'll be, I'll be frank with you, and Sizwe, you know this, like you know this intrinsically about me. I don't care for most things, and I don't do it for me, genuinely. I have a great time, like, doing most things just like whatever. When it's outward facing, uh, I don't care for most stuff. But in those moments, I remind myself that it's not always about me, and I see her joy and I'm like, "Oh yeah, man. Try and remember those people." You know, like, uh, the other firefighter comes up to me and he's, he's just talking about, like, the stuff I've said and the way he- I've made him laugh and what- And I go like, "Oh yeah, don't forget those people." And, and for me, the Grammys in that way, I know it's not the reason reason, but to your point, when you go, damn, the Grammys itself sitting near like $10 million that has been raised just on one night- Mm ... from, you know, literally from the top, from Doors coming all the way through Billie Eilish, Sabrina Carpenter, and then you name it, all the way down to that final performance with Charli XCX. Charli XCX. And you go like, every single person had to come together to do this, and in the same way, every single person who donated had to come together. Like, I'm, I didn't know this, but now I'm even more proud knowing that each contribution wasn't $10,000. So much prouder, yeah. I agree. Everyone was just like, "Yo, man." And I- that's why I kept saying it the whole night. Just give what you can. Mm. It's not about, like, this is not about... Like, just give what you can, and I think that was the lesson for me of doing the whole Grammys for this year, was everyone just give what you can in every situation. $5 doesn't help anybody who's lost their house. It doesn't. But if everybody can give $5, you'll be shocked at what can happen. Do you know what I mean? Trevor Noah can't- That's literally what happened. Yeah. Trevor Noah can't make the Grammys. I can't. I can't make it good, and I can't make it bad. But I can contribute to it, you know? E- everyone can, and even, like, the recording members voting, you know, no one can make Beyoncé happy. [laughs] You can't. But 13,000 people came together from the music industry and made her happier, I, I argue, than I've ever seen her, 'cause I don't know her personally in that way. But like- Mm ... I don't know, and I think that was, that was the overarching feeling for me. And isn't that kind of-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:50:29 I suppose the nub

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:50:30 and the joy of doing a show like the Grammys, that it's actually so consequential in so many people's lives. If you do one of your evening shows, one of your evening shows, yeah, you can make a person feel good, but you do the show on behalf of the Academy.

Ben Winston 1:50:44 Mm-hmm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:50:45 It literally means so much to all of those artists that are in attendance that night.

Ben Winston 1:50:48 Yeah. And I also wanna stress this to people, you don't understand how many artists are in that room. I know we, we see the big artists-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:50:55 Yeah

Ben Winston 1:50:55 ... and you know them, but man, you walk down and you'll see, like, a composer-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:51:01 Yeah

Ben Winston 1:51:01 ... who is having the night of their lives, sitting with their spouse. All they've done is compose or even, like, conduct classical music, and they are just like, "This is the pinnacle of what I've worked for." Sorry, I cut you off.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:51:14 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:51:14 Carry on.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:51:15 And so while you're not in charge of, like, who wins and who loses, you certainly are in charge, for example, of who gets to perform and in what way.

Ben Winston 1:51:23 Yeah. That's right.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:51:24 Right? And you've also got a very personal relationship with the artists. I've seen it, I've experienced it. Does it ever get to a point where- [laughs]

Ben Winston 1:51:30 Not all of them. [laughs] Not all of them, but some of them.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:51:32 Well, that's exactly it. Does it ever get to a point where it adds to a tension or, I suppose, then will make your relationship even better-

Ben Winston 1:51:39 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:51:39 ... because of-

Ben Winston 1:51:40 It does get tense

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:51:40 ... a decision you've taken?

Ben Winston 1:51:42 Yeah, 100%. There'll be artists who I've got relationships with, and they'll be like, "I've got a new single. I've got it. I'm gonna save it for the Grammys." And I'm like, "Ooh, I don't know if I've got a spot."

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:51:51 [laughs]

Ben Winston 1:51:51 And I'm like, "This is awkward." Um, yeah, there's, like, really lovely things. I'd say, like, the three, the three performances that I was really excited about for a long time, not a long time, actually, some of them were a long time. When I f- when... It was actually, I called, I called Brandi Carlile, who's a really good mate of mine, and I said to her, "I really"... I'd been listening to I Love LA in my car going between the hotel downtown where we were evacuated to and my house where I was sitting during the day, because I never thought the fires were gonna come and take my house away, but I did think, like, an ember could fly over and, like-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:52:24 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Ben Winston 1:52:24 ... and then, and then a small little fire becomes a big one.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:52:26 Right.

Ben Winston 1:52:26 So I just decided the kids would be downtown in the hotel, which is where we'd sleep, and then I, in the day, would come and sit in my garden. I had a hose at the front, a hose at the back-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:52:33 I was about to go, "What's, what's the plan when the ember comes over?" [laughs]

Ben Winston 1:52:36 ... and a hose on the side. [laughs] Yeah. I had three hoses, right?

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:52:37 Oh, man.

Ben Winston 1:52:38 So I would sit there all day on my laptop doing work by the window in the garden, and I'd just, like, look in case there was embers, because I can put out an ember.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:52:45 [laughs]

Ben Winston 1:52:46 But, like, you know what you're like.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:52:48 This is so funny.

Ben Winston 1:52:48 You're like, you're like-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:52:48 No, somebody would do that

Ben Winston 1:52:49 ... you're like that guy in a zombie apocalypse-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:52:51 Yeah

Ben Winston 1:52:51 ... with, like, a tiny little rifle.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:52:52 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:52:53 And you're just like, "I'm, I'm gonna protect my family."

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:52:55 "I'm gonna protect my house."

Ben Winston 1:52:56 Yeah. But no, it, but, but it's true, because the truth of it is my house was only gonna burn down because we were f- we were at the edge of Brentwood. So the fire was a long, it was m- mile and a half, but it was-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:53:06 Yeah

Ben Winston 1:53:06 ... it was close, but it wasn't close enough. If it was coming for us like it did with Palisades or, or, or, or Altie- Altadena, uh, I would've been able to get in my car and go.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:53:14 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:53:15 But it was more likely that something, we've got a lot of trees over the house.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:53:18 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 1:53:18 So I was just like-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:53:20 Yeah

Ben Winston 1:53:20 ... I think it would be better for me just to be there, put out a little fire-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:53:23 Yeah

Ben Winston 1:53:23 ... than it become a big fire and then it's too late. So that's what we decided to do. It, it's not, I promise you, it's not as risky as it sounds. Um, but I was listening-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:53:32 Yeah

Ben Winston 1:53:32 ... to I Love LA, and I, again, going back to our earlier point that I've suddenly become obsessed with this city. I don't know what's happened to me. But, um, so I'd be listening to it and I'd be like, "What a great way. That is making me feel good. I love that song. Maybe if Randy Newman would allow us to change some of the lyrics", which he did. But then I was like, "Who performs it?" And at one point I was like, "Stevie Nicks would be great."

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:53:51 Mm-hmm.

Ben Winston 1:53:51 And then I was like, "Miley Cyrus would be quite fun. Would that be cool?" And then I thought, "Well, Red Hot Chili Peppers would be great, but they'd never do I Love LA, 'cause they'd wanna do their own song," which might, which is amazing, but then it would be a bit more somber.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:54:03 Yeah, yeah. It's a very somber-

Ben Winston 1:54:04 So I called Brandi Carlile and I went, "I, I'd really like this song. Do you think it's a good idea? Who do you think I should... Do you think Pink? Do you think, like, who do you think?" And she said, "Have you heard of the band Doors?" And I was like, "It's funny, I actually just watched them on Kimmel two nights ago," 'cause I know that they're a... I didn't know them well, but I knew of them, and their house, like, one of their houses burnt down, parent's house, all of that. And she was like, "I know them, and they're, like, incredible musicians." And so I was like, "Maybe we do that and we put a super group around them." So that was an amazing moment, doing a Zoom with that band. And they were like, "Why is the Grammys calling us?" [laughs] Like, they're, not that they're not amazing, but, like, they're not a nominated band.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:54:42 Yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 1:54:42 And I was like, "I'd like to speak to you." And I got on a Zoom with Taylor and Griffin and their manager, Brian, and I said, "Look, we'd- I want you to open the Grammys, come, follow in the footsteps of Prince and Bruce Springsteen and Michael Jackson." And, and they were kind of like, "Oh my God, this is insane." And it's a weird moment for them because they know they've just experienced the biggest sadness in their life.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:55:02 Mm-hmm.

Ben Winston 1:55:02 They've lost everything.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:55:04 But then out of that comes-

Ben Winston 1:55:05 But out of that, they're opening the Grammys.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:55:07 Mm-hmm.

Ben Winston 1:55:08 So it's, like, a really amazing thing that they would've dreamt of as kids. And then it's a real weird feeling for them because you're like, "Well, I'm only getting that."

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:55:14 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:55:14 "I'm not gonna-"

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:55:15 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:55:15 Then let's be hon- Doors aren't gonna open the Grammys at this stage. They might in a few years, but, uh, right now they're not opening the Grammys unless that happens. So that's actually a bit of a head-screwing thing for them. But that was beautiful, 'cause I knew it could be amazing, and I knew they were great musicians, and every musician we called, John Legend, Brittany Howard, et cetera, Sheryl Crow. Um, I, we emailed Bob Dylan's manager, and I haven't heard back yet, but I'm hoping maybe we'll get a reply. [laughs]

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:55:37 Maybe he's in South Africa. You never know.

Ben Winston 1:55:38 Yeah, could be.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:55:39 He could be in South Africa taking

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:55:40 time away.

Ben Winston 1:55:40 So those calls were fun. And then Raye and Doechii was really fun, because I've been a fan of those for a long time.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:55:45 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:55:45 Both of those I've known of for a while. And then when Colbert put Doechii on-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:55:49 Oh, man, your, your camera shot of the Doechii thing, like, y- made it look like she just, like, hated me. Did you see that?

Ben Winston 1:55:57 No.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:55:57 That, that, that was just like... But this is what I mean about, like, the, the aperture in life, right?

Ben Winston 1:56:01 Go on.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:56:02 So the joke we always have at the Grammys is this: Who you cut to defines the moment. [laughs]

Ben Winston 1:56:08 [laughs] I would avoid we-

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:56:09 Like, like for instance, if you, if I make a joke about Taylor Swift and you cut to Taylor Swift, and Taylor Swift is like, "Uh-uh," it's over.

Ben Winston 1:56:17 Over.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:56:17 It's over. Now she-

Ben Winston 1:56:18 That's happened, that happened to Jo Koy.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:56:20 Yeah. Now-

Ben Winston 1:56:20 That's what happened to Jo Koy

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:56:21 ... now you, she might have been going uh-uh for anything-

Ben Winston 1:56:23 Mm-hmm

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:56:24 ... but if you cut to her at the wrong time, for, and you have to-

Ben Winston 1:56:26 It happened to you, I think, four years ago.

Sizwe Dhlomo 1:56:28 You have to be sensitive about this, actually. You know, obviously you and the director is like-

Trevor Noah 1:56:34 You can make something that isn't something-

Ben Winston 1:56:36 You're right

Trevor Noah 1:56:37 ... become something. So for instance, if you cut to an artist, do you remember the year Beyoncé won best dance? And the camera cut to Diplo, and he leaned over to somebody, and w- he's now said what he said. He said, like, "I, I worked on that," or, "I wrote on that," or something like that, 'cause he did. I think he worked on the album. But he went like, "I worked on that." And then people at home were like, "Oh, he said... That's, that's f- screwed up."

Ben Winston 1:56:59 I know.

Trevor Noah 1:56:59 Or, "She shouldn't have won," or-

Ben Winston 1:57:00 She didn't deserve it

Trevor Noah 1:57:00 ... "She didn't deserve it." That's e-

Ben Winston 1:57:01 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 1:57:02 And all of a sudden, Diplo's now having a, he's in a huge beef-

Ben Winston 1:57:05 I know, I know. I do worry about that

Trevor Noah 1:57:06 ... with an army of Beyoncé fans.

Ben Winston 1:57:08 I do worry about that.

Trevor Noah 1:57:09 And I always wonder about that on your side as like, what do you-

Ben Winston 1:57:11 Well, it's, it's, you know what it is? It's about the timing of it. Because what happens is, so I will have a bank of, Hamish is in the director's seat to my right, and I have a bank of all of the cameras. There's like 20 of them.

Trevor Noah 1:57:22 Yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 1:57:22 And so I'll specifically ask for the four that are in the audience-

Trevor Noah 1:57:25 Yeah

Ben Winston 1:57:25 ... in my, in my best eye line. So I'll be looking there. And so while Hamish is calling, you know, "Cut to camera two, go around the back of Beyoncé. Get the fo-," you know, we'll be, I will always be looking at where the stories are.

Trevor Noah 1:57:36 Right.

Ben Winston 1:57:36 'Cause I'll know the stories more than Hamish will. He'll know, like, the shots. He tells an unbelievable story, but I'll know that, like, you know, Billie is Charli XCX's closest friend.

Trevor Noah 1:57:44 Ah.

Ben Winston 1:57:44 And like-

Trevor Noah 1:57:44 Got it. Okay, got it, got it, got it

Ben Winston 1:57:45 ... that could be really, so I, I'm aware of that because it's, I've put the show together.

Trevor Noah 1:57:48 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:57:49 Um, but like there is an example actually i- in this specific one, like I cut to somebody, and they were smiling, and they were really clapping really, really a lot. Um, and I said, I said to, I always call. I went, "Two's nice." That's what I'll go.

Trevor Noah 1:58:03 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:58:03 I'll go, "Lovely on three," or whatever, which is my way of going really politely, "I'd like you to cut to camera two or three." [laughs]

Trevor Noah 1:58:09 [laughs]

Ben Winston 1:58:09 And Hamish knows that. Rather than going, "Cut to three."

Trevor Noah 1:58:11 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:58:12 I just go, "Two's lovely." And he'll be like, "Two," and he'll catch it. But sometimes he'll have, you know, he'll be doing other things because he's got other plans, or he wants to go wide or whatever, or I'll be sort of shouting, "See the room, see the room," so we're going wider.

Trevor Noah 1:58:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 1:58:24 But if he cuts a little bit late, then somebody laughing, right?

Trevor Noah 1:58:28 [laughs]

Ben Winston 1:58:28 Or like enjoying it, somebody laughing.

Trevor Noah 1:58:31 [laughs]

Ben Winston 1:58:31 And if he hears it a bit late, and then they've just finished laughing, and then they're gone, and then you cut there, then it looks brutal.

Trevor Noah 1:58:37 Yeah, no, it's all wrong.

Ben Winston 1:58:38 And it happened this year where somebody was really applauding somebody for winning. I genuinely can't remember which one it is. I'd have to watch it back. And they were applauding like that, and I went, "Cut to camera two," and he didn't for a second, but then he went like four seconds later, and by that stage they were like this.

Trevor Noah 1:58:51 Ah.

Ben Winston 1:58:51 Really like glove.

Trevor Noah 1:58:52 Man. [laughs]

Ben Winston 1:58:53 And everyone's like-

Trevor Noah 1:58:53 Oh, man

Ben Winston 1:58:54 ... "Wow, they were so annoyed that they won." And I was like-

Trevor Noah 1:58:55 Yeah

Ben Winston 1:58:56 ... "Oh, they weren't. They weren't"

Trevor Noah 1:58:57 He won so and so.

Ben Winston 1:58:57 They weren't.

Trevor Noah 1:58:58 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:58:58 So it's all actually, it's not even just about the cutaway, it's about the split second of the cutaway.

Trevor Noah 1:59:03 It is, completely.

Ben Winston 1:59:04 Because somebody, during a laugh, the peak of somebody's laugh, their face is very different to the comedown from the laugh.

Trevor Noah 1:59:09 No, no, completely. Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:59:10 So you gotta catch it. But then sometimes, sometimes, like when we caught, ca- Taylor did like a dance. I can't remember when it was, but something happened, and she did like, she sort of did this dance. And it was only for that second that she did it with the camera on. It was incredible, and I was like, "Oh my God, that's amazing." Same with the meme that's gonna go forever of Beyoncé being shocked.

Trevor Noah 1:59:30 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 1:59:32 And what happens is-

Trevor Noah 1:59:32 Yeah

Ben Winston 1:59:32 ... what happens is, and there's one thing I'm gonna change next year, I've decided.

Trevor Noah 1:59:34 Okay.

Ben Winston 1:59:34 There's one thing I'm gonna change next year, if I'm allowed to. I'm saying it. I wanna swap the artist's name and the album. 'Cause what happens is people go, "Cowboy Carter, Beyoncé."

Trevor Noah 1:59:45 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 1:59:46 And actually, the, the, the TD, the technical director, who doesn't necessarily know which, the name of everybody's album.

Trevor Noah 1:59:53 Who, yeah, who, yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 1:59:53 Short and sweet. Sabrina Carpenter, and then you might-

Trevor Noah 1:59:57 Yeah.

Ben Winston 1:59:57 So I think they should, we should just change it where they go, "Sabrina," and then you immediately just know, and you're not waiting because if you miss... Like luckily we didn't miss it on Beyoncé. If we had missed the, like, shake-

Trevor Noah 2:00:07 Oh yeah, you wouldn't have that feeling

Ben Winston 2:00:08 ... which was a fraction of a second later-

Trevor Noah 2:00:09 Yeah

Ben Winston 2:00:09 ... then the whole thing wouldn't have been like she was so surprised. It would've just been like it was emotional. So like your, the, the, the timing of that when you cut-

Trevor Noah 2:00:16 Yeah

Ben Winston 2:00:17 ... defines those award moments.

Trevor Noah 2:00:18 It's also, I know it's, I don't wanna overstate it 'cause it's just the Grammys, but it is still the Grammys. It's also a lot of power to wield. You can make beefs that don't exist.

Ben Winston 2:00:28 That's right.

Trevor Noah 2:00:28 You can make artists-

Ben Winston 2:00:29 You're right

Trevor Noah 2:00:29 ... quote unquote, "hate each other."

Ben Winston 2:00:31 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 2:00:31 Like according to the public.

Ben Winston 2:00:33 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 2:00:33 "Oh, you saw how she responded when he won the award." You can literally... It also reminds me to, to be cautious of how I even see the world, funny enough.

Ben Winston 2:00:41 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 2:00:41 Like I go, "Don't forget that the world that you're seeing is filtered." Somebody's showing you something, and how they show it to you defines how you think it actually happened or didn't happen. And not in a conspiratorial way, just remember, the way you're seeing something has been chosen by somebody else. And so in that room, funny enough, I've seen people's faces shift, like from moment to moment.

Ben Winston 2:01:00 Yeah.

Trevor Noah 2:01:01 But where the camera is-

Ben Winston 2:01:02 Well, you know what's funny? The, I made one change, one big change when I took over this show five years ago.

Trevor Noah 2:01:07 Yeah?

Ben Winston 2:01:07 And it was a change for the worse of the show, no question. I scrapped the quadrant where you see everybody's face when they win or lose.

Trevor Noah 2:01:16 Oh.

Ben Winston 2:01:16 Because that was always on the show. It was always on the show every year for the 62 years of the Grammys.

Trevor Noah 2:01:21 You're talking about the, the part of the show where they go-

Ben Winston 2:01:23 So when they go, "The nominations are..."

Trevor Noah 2:01:24 Yeah.

Ben Winston 2:01:24 Da, da, da, da, da, da, da.

Trevor Noah 2:01:25 And then it's, it's revealed and what?

Ben Winston 2:01:26 And then they go, and then as they're opening the envelope, you see four-

Trevor Noah 2:01:28 Everyone's faces up there

Ben Winston 2:01:29 ... five or eight faces. All nominees are up there. And it's my favorite bit of award shows. I am rewinding-

Trevor Noah 2:01:36 Wait, you love it? [laughs]

Ben Winston 2:01:37 I'm rewinding it. I'm rewinding it to see their expressions. I'm rewinding it to see how good they're acting. I love it. Everybody loves it. And for the w- for the l- for the lesser of the audience experience, I took that away. I, I've made the show worse by doing it.

Trevor Noah 2:01:50 But why? But why'd you do it then?

Ben Winston 2:01:52 Because I think the Grammys, when we took it over, had some work to do in the artist community. I felt like the Grammys had, over the years, burnt a few bridges with quite a lot of artists. I felt like I spoke to some well-known artists who are friends, and they said that they felt like they were always on display, like they were in a zoo.

Trevor Noah 2:02:13 Oh, interesting.

Ben Winston 2:02:14 They were in those lines.

Trevor Noah 2:02:15 Interesting.

Ben Winston 2:02:15 They were in all, you know, you're in rows in a theater, and all the cameras are there, and you're just sitting there squashed, and you're, you're stuck. You can't get out 'cause you're on a row.

Trevor Noah 2:02:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Winston 2:02:22 Right? Ex- no one's on the aisles. There's only a few people on the aisles. So they were trapped, and they were on camera. And they all said that although they loved winning a Grammy, the, I think they felt like the evening was a lot of pressure for them, and it was a difficult thing for them to enjoy because they all felt on display. And there was also lots of other problems with the Recording Academy and Grammys that aren't for me to discuss now-

Trevor Noah 2:02:42 Yeah

Ben Winston 2:02:42 ... and it's none of my business anyway. But I would, I essentially went round and spoke to a lot of artists and, and I really wanted to make artists... One of the biggest things I wanted to do five years ago was make artists want to come back to the Grammys again and enjoy it and love it and have a great night.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:02:55 Mm-hmm.

Ben Winston 2:02:56 And one of the things I get most happy about on that, this night, on Sunday, that room, as you just said, is stacked.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:03:03 Yeah.

Ben Winston 2:03:03 And it's not just nominees. Like, people are showing up. They wanna come. They wanna be there. They wanna present. They wanna be part of it. They've got boxes. They, and it's become, and that's, t- that's, I think that's for three reasons. One, it's because we go out of our way to be as loving as, and as kind as we can to everybody.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:03:21 Yeah.

Ben Winston 2:03:21 And, like, we do it in a nice way. Number two is people love the tables, 'cause it's a vibe.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:03:25 Yeah, it's a vibe.

Ben Winston 2:03:25 They've got food, they've got drink-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:03:27 Let me tell you-

Ben Winston 2:03:27 ... they've got things. It's an atmosphere

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:03:28 ... see on that.

Ben Winston 2:03:29 It's a club

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:03:29 Actually, I wanna interject on that, because I get to experience that in a way that you guys never do. You all is in the control room. You all is backstage somewhere.

Ben Winston 2:03:37 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:03:38 That vibe by the tables, I cannot begin to explain to you how much of a vibe that thing is.

Ben Winston 2:03:43 People love it. People love it.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:03:44 People, people move from table to table during ad breaks. People come over, "Yo, so and so." Hugs, drinks, they have whatever the snacks are on the table. That is-

Ben Winston 2:03:55 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:03:55 ... honestly probably the best part of the evening.

Ben Winston 2:03:57 So there wasn't, so before I took over, there wasn't drinks, there wasn't food, there wasn't tables. It was all just rows. You can't get up to sp-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:04:03 No, you can't

Ben Winston 2:04:03 ... you know, you've been at the Emmys-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:04:04 Yeah

Ben Winston 2:04:04 ... or whatever. You can't get up and talk and go around. You can't get in. People are shuffling. They're up, they're down. It's not... And then I also felt, as much as I love the camera in someone's face when they lose-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:04:14 [laughs]

Ben Winston 2:04:15 And as much as I think that's good TV, I felt for the long-term gain of the Grammys-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:04:19 I get it though

Ben Winston 2:04:20 ... and, and the warmth that people feel, I want everyone to feel protected.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:04:23 Yeah.

Ben Winston 2:04:23 And I know that losing on camera for them is gonna be difficult. And you know what? They don't need to have a camera in their face for it. They do have a camera in their face, 'cause we're covering everybody who's nominated.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:04:33 Right, but in case they win. But it's not-

Ben Winston 2:04:34 But I actually go out of my way-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:04:35 There's no memes of them

Ben Winston 2:04:36 ... I re-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:04:37 Yeah

Ben Winston 2:04:37 ... yeah, and I really try, if I do see somebody who does really look a bit upset that they've lost, I, I don't cut to it.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:04:45 Oh, wow.

Ben Winston 2:04:45 I don't cut to it. Because, like, I know that's good for gossip and I know that's good for the internet, but it's not good for them, and it's not good for the person who's won.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:04:51 Yeah. It makes a story about that.

Ben Winston 2:04:53 And, like, and I, and I really want it to be a nice, loving room, and I want people to love coming. And that's our bread and butter now. It's b- about them coming back every year and enjoying it.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:05:01 Yeah.

Ben Winston 2:05:01 Because that's why, they, they've announced today, CBS, that it was the most, i- i- in the history of television, the most social impressions of any TV show of all time was this last Sunday.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:05:11 Wow.

Ben Winston 2:05:11 Of all time. And, like, that's because everyone's in the room, and I want everyone to feel protected by that. So if I did see, if I did think Billie Eilish was crying because she'd lost an album, we wouldn't have cut to her.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:05:22 Right.

Ben Winston 2:05:23 But because she was crying like Gaga was with the emotion of the moment, or firefighters, whatever it was, I was like, "That's a beautiful shot." Um, so yeah, that's, that's just something that we changed that I miss, because as a viewer I miss it, but as the person who has to oversee the show-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:05:37 Yeah

Ben Winston 2:05:37 ... it's helped me a great deal. And I s- you know, and I just be like, "Don't worry about it. You're gonna be fine. I'm ne- you're not gonna be embarrassed."

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:05:44 I like that.

Ben Winston 2:05:44 And it's, you know, I dunno.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:05:46 Congru- congratulations, my friend. It was a, it was-

Ben Winston 2:05:48 Oh, congratulations to you. You danced that high wire-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:05:49 No, no, no, for real

Ben Winston 2:05:50 ... and you did phenomenally. You really did

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:05:51 It's, um, it's not an easy task. You spend pretty much a year on it. Like, you only get a few days to enjoy the Grammys, and then you go into the Grammys immediately again.

Ben Winston 2:05:59 Well, yeah, maybe. I mean, I juggle a few different things, but-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:06:01 You, you, yeah, but you spend a lot of time on it.

Ben Winston 2:06:03 I th-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:06:03 So I, I-

Ben Winston 2:06:04 Yeah

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:06:04 ... I'm always happy for you and the entire crew and team.

Ben Winston 2:06:07 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:06:07 Like, the, the last thing I hear before I walk out on stage is oftentimes what the stagehands are saying, and even that is part of, like, literally we're like part of a, a football team or something.

Ben Winston 2:06:17 Mm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:06:17 You know? Like, the, the, the lead stagehand comes out, and then he made this beautiful speech. He, I, he didn't even know that I was, like, listening to it.

Ben Winston 2:06:22 Mm-hmm.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:06:22 But I, I felt motivated. He's like, "All right, everybody. You know why we're here."

Ben Winston 2:06:26 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:06:26 "You know what we're doing. We got one night, people. Let's make this work. Let's put our best foot out there, and, uh, come on, guys. Let's get through it. Let's get to the other side. You ready? Let's do it. Yeah." And then I cheered and I clapped, and they turned like, "Oh, the host was here. We did-"

Ben Winston 2:06:37 That's nice.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:06:37 But I was like, "No, thank you."

Ben Winston 2:06:38 Yeah.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:06:38 I was like, "I needed that. I also needed that." So, um-

Ben Winston 2:06:40 It is, I would say-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:06:40 Yeah, congrats to everyone

Ben Winston 2:06:41 ... and this, this is a corny thing to say, and it's boring for a podcast, but I, I wanna say it 'cause it's 100% true.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:06:46 This podcast is boring anyway. [laughs]

Ben Winston 2:06:48 No, I loved it. I, I found it like therapy. I found it like therapy. It's been lovely. But, like, it's, it's, um, like I'll be the one who sits here and talks about the show and represents it, but, like, we've put together this A team. Like, you're talking about those stagehands. Just think about how quickly they need to-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:07:04 It's insane, man

Ben Winston 2:07:04 ... take down a Sabrina carpet-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:07:05 It's so impressive

Ben Winston 2:07:06 ... set and bring-

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:07:06 It's so impressive

Ben Winston 2:07:06 ... build that weekend pyramid. You know, Raj Kapoor, Jesse Collins, Patrick Menton, Tabitha, Jeanette, all of them, David Wilde. They just do this phenomenal job that makes, I think, the hardest show in television possible.

Sizwe Dhlomo 2:07:18 Yeah.

Ben Winston 2:07:18 And, and the fact that people are being nice about it, I, I, it,