Pete Buttigieg: The Broken Promise: Democracy, the Economy & What Comes Next

1. 0:00 – 0:14

   Who is Pete Buttigieg, really?

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      A graduate of Harvard, a Rhodes Scholar, a Naval Reserve officer who deployed to Afghanistan, and the mayor of a small city in Indiana

   2. TNTrevor Noah0:07

      Buttigieg now the first openly LGBTQ elected official to run for president.

   3. SPSpeaker0:12

      I'm running for president because I think our country

2. 0:14 – 1:10

   Mayor, veteran, scholar… beard guy?

   1. SPSpeaker0:14

      is running out of time. We cannot keep doing the same thing over and over and over again and expect it to get better.

   2. TNTrevor Noah0:20

      The Senate overwhelmingly approved the nomination of Pete Buttigieg as Transportation Secretary.

   3. SPSpeaker0:25

      He's overseeing one of the most significant investments in America's bridges, roads, and rails in more than half a century.

   4. SPSpeaker0:32

      What made Peter stand out was his leadership. You kind of knew that there was an extraordinary potential there. [upbeat music]

   5. TNTrevor Noah0:44

      This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. [upbeat music] Pete Buttigieg, do you miss being called Mayor Pete?

   6. SPSpeaker1:02

      Oh, I always go by Mayor Pete.

   7. TNTrevor Noah1:03

      Oh, you still go by Mayor Pete?

   8. SPSpeaker1:04

      Yeah, sure.

   9. TNTrevor Noah1:04

      I like that. Have you been on LinkedIn? [laughs]

   10. SPSpeaker1:06

       I haven't logged into LinkedIn in a while.

   11. TNTrevor Noah1:07

       [laughs]

   12. SPSpeaker1:07

       But yeah, maybe. I don't know.

   13. TNTrevor Noah1:08

       That would be great if you had a LinkedIn.

3. 1:10 – 2:13

   The beard origin story (and Chasten’s role)

   1. SPSpeaker1:10

      I should. Maybe I do.

   2. TNTrevor Noah1:11

      [laughs]

   3. SPSpeaker1:11

      I don't know. I should check now that you mention it. I still have my old, you know... I wonder if my MySpace is still up somewhere.

   4. TNTrevor Noah1:17

      Just, like, someone trying to link with you there. You know, I- you know what I always think about, like, um, people's social media profiles is the people who don't pay attention to the world world- Mm-hmm ... but pay attention to the social media, and then they're friends with you on MySpace, and they're just like, "I wonder whatever happened to Pete." [laughs] Like, think about it. There's people like that- Mm. Mm ... out there-

   5. SPSpeaker1:37

      Oh, God

   6. TNTrevor Noah1:37

      ... who were friends with you on, like, MySpace, Facebook, any of those things. Mm. You went off. You went and did things in the world. Mm. [laughs] They're still friends with you there, and they're like, "I wonder whatever happened to that guy." And now you've got a beard, so you look a little different. Mm. So they're just like, "I wonder where he is." You didn't always have a beard.

   7. SPSpeaker1:51

      No, no, this is, uh... It comes and goes, but, uh, I haven't had one in a while, so

   8. TNTrevor Noah1:55

      Beard, beard crew, both of you. How did you make that decision-

   9. SPSpeaker1:57

      Yeah

   10. TNTrevor Noah1:57

       ... of this is it now?

   11. SPSpeaker1:59

       Uh, mostly my husband made that decision, so [laughs]

   12. TNTrevor Noah2:01

       He was like, "I like you with a beard on."

   13. SPSpeaker2:03

       Yeah, yeah.

   14. TNTrevor Noah2:03

       Oh, I don't like seeing your face. That's how, that's how-

   15. SPSpeaker2:05

       He's like, "Stop there"

   16. TNTrevor Noah2:05

       ... 'cause how do... When a partner likes the beard, it's a hard one, eh?

   17. SPSpeaker2:09

       Yeah.

   18. TNTrevor Noah2:09

       Yeah. How does your-

   19. SPSpeaker2:10

       I don't-

   20. TNTrevor Noah2:10

       How did your beard come around?

   21. SPSpeaker2:11

       I think it's an easy one. You just give in.

4. 2:13 – 4:03

   Eugene’s beard journey: from baby face to philosopher

   1. SPSpeaker2:13

      [laughs] Like...

   2. TNTrevor Noah2:13

      I looked at myself in the mirror. I was like, "What is your aim in life?" [laughs] Then I was like, "What do you, w- what do you mean I'm doing everything right?" Then- [laughs] ... my face was like, "Is everything right for real, real, real?" Then I was like, "Yeah, maybe I'll try a mustache." Then I tried a mustache. Then I had a goatee.

   3. SPSpeaker2:30

      Yeah.

   4. TNTrevor Noah2:31

      Then I would hear girls going, "Yeah, oh, you look, um, yeah, with a beard, kind of..." Then I was like, "Yeah," then I grew a little bit on the side, and I was like, "Uh, what do you think now?" Then I did a little bit of a poll.

   5. SPSpeaker2:41

      Yeah.

   6. TNTrevor Noah2:41

      Then I went around and I was like, "What do you... [laughs] Hmm." Looked vulnerable. I was like, "Yeah, what do you think?" They were like, "Oh, yeah." Actually, then it became my identity.

   7. SPSpeaker2:47

      Yeah.

   8. TNTrevor Noah2:48

      Then COVID happened. Couldn't go to the barber.

   9. SPSpeaker2:50

      Okay.

   10. TNTrevor Noah2:51

       Then I was like, "Let me-

   11. SPSpeaker2:51

       Kinda grew on them

   12. TNTrevor Noah2:51

       ... let me see how this thing goes." Yeah. Oh, that's when you went full beard. Yes.

   13. SPSpeaker2:55

       Yeah, I see.

   14. TNTrevor Noah2:55

       Then I went full beard.

   15. SPSpeaker2:56

       Yeah.

   16. TNTrevor Noah2:56

       Then when I came out of COVID, people were like, "This is you now."

   17. SPSpeaker2:59

       Mm.

   18. TNTrevor Noah2:59

       Then two weeks, three weeks ago, I shaved everything off. Oof.

   19. SPSpeaker3:02

       Really?

   20. TNTrevor Noah3:03

       I lost my aura.

   21. SPSpeaker3:04

       You had to get it right back?

   22. TNTrevor Noah3:05

       Completely.

   23. SPSpeaker3:05

       Wow.

   24. TNTrevor Noah3:05

       Yeah, it's gone. I was like, "I can't live like this anymore."

   25. SPSpeaker3:07

       Yeah, interesting.

   26. TNTrevor Noah3:08

       I saw my dimple. I saw my, this part of my chin. I didn't like myself. [laughs] I was-

   27. SPSpeaker3:13

       [laughs]

   28. TNTrevor Noah3:14

       Ah ... past mirrors, I couldn't look at myself, and it started growing back, and I was like, "I'm in now."

   29. SPSpeaker3:19

       Wow.

   30. TNTrevor Noah3:19

       Yeah.
5. 4:03 – 5:13

   Trevor’s beard trauma: the laser years

   1. TNTrevor Noah4:03

      sides. No, so when I was... You know what happened is when I was, um, when I was young, late, like early 20s, somewhere there- Yeah ... I had really, really bad acne. Like, really, really bad. So then whenever my hair would grow out, it would make things worse. Mm. So someone was like, "Oh, you must go and get laser so that the hair doesn't grow." So I went and I got laser. You got laser? Yeah, I got laser on my face. Pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, pow. Mm. And then it helped, and then I was like, "Oh, this is much better. Thank you." And then beards came into fashion. Then I was like, "I'm joining." And then my, my skin was like, "No, you're not." [laughs] So now I'm just, this is me. Um, thank you for being vulnerable with us. I mean, this is not something that most men like talking about. What? Not growing a beard? Yes. Or getting laser? Because what you are doing right now is you're opening up the podcast to a huge segment of men who are struggling with connecting beards, and some of them don't know what happened. But you particularly, you chose this platform to face this disability that you now have. That's what we all do. And- You've got to share your, you've got to share your vulnerabilities. Look, I would like to say I see you. Thank you. I respect your decision. Thank you. And Pete and I would like to say we'll think of you when we're oiling our beards all the time. Thank you, Eugene. You're welcome.

6. 5:13 – 6:11

   Mayor Pete, Secretary Pete, or just Pete?

   1. TNTrevor Noah5:14

      Pete, welcome to the, uh, podcast.

   2. SPSpeaker5:16

      Thank you.

   3. TNTrevor Noah5:16

      Mayor Pete. [laughs]

   4. SPSpeaker5:17

      [laughs]

   5. TNTrevor Noah5:17

      Uh, former Secretary of, uh, Transportation Pete. Which, which title do you prefer the most?

   6. SPSpeaker5:22

      Just Pete. Just Pete is good.

   7. TNTrevor Noah5:23

      Just Pete?

   8. SPSpeaker5:23

      Yeah.

   9. TNTrevor Noah5:24

      It's weird calling you just Pete because I feel like you're not just Pete.

   10. SPSpeaker5:26

       Yeah.

   11. TNTrevor Noah5:26

       Like, you've done everything beyond just Pete. You know what I mean?

   12. SPSpeaker5:28

       Mm-hmm.

   13. TNTrevor Noah5:28

       It's like when someone-

   14. SPSpeaker5:29

       Yeah, His Excellency works if you want.

   15. TNTrevor Noah5:30

       [laughs]

   16. SPSpeaker5:31

       Yeah.

   17. TNTrevor Noah5:31

       You see? I'm in.

   18. SPSpeaker5:32

       [laughs]

   19. TNTrevor Noah5:32

       His Excellency Pete. Now we're talking. [laughs] Now we are talking. Yeah, that's what I'm-

   20. SPSpeaker5:39

       No, I'm a M- Midwesterner. We're, we're, like, humble, straightforward people. Pete's good. Just Pete.

   21. TNTrevor Noah5:42

       No, I like this. I like this a lot. Thank you so much for joining.

   22. SPSpeaker5:45

       Oh.

   23. TNTrevor Noah5:45

       You know, you know why I'm, I'm, I'm excited to have you is because, like, from the very first time I heard of you and knew you, I was on The Daily Show back then.

   24. SPSpeaker5:52

       Yeah.

   25. TNTrevor Noah5:53

       And then you were the mayor, and you know, it was like, so it was Mayor Pete.

   26. SPSpeaker5:55

       Yeah.

   27. TNTrevor Noah5:55

       And then it was, like, Mayor Pete's running for president, and then it was, like, Mayor P- and then it was Mayor Pete's in the administration.

   28. SPSpeaker6:00

       Yeah.

   29. TNTrevor Noah6:01

       You've always been- Inside the government in some way, shape, or form. And this is the first time where-

   30. PBPete Buttigieg6:06

       Yeah
7. 6:11 – 7:17

   The retired superhero phase

   1. TNTrevor Noah6:11

      days? Like, what are you doing?

   2. PBPete Buttigieg6:11

      Yeah, so this is the first time in 15 years that I haven't been either running for something or in some kind of public position or, or both.

   3. TNTrevor Noah6:19

      Yeah.

   4. PBPete Buttigieg6:20

      Um, and it's kinda great. I mean, you know, I'm, most days I'm the one dropping the kids off at school-

   5. TNTrevor Noah6:25

      Mm

   6. PBPete Buttigieg6:25

      ... or, or at camp this summer. Um, just able to, able to stop shaving for a few days, actually.

   7. TNTrevor Noah6:32

      Yeah.

   8. PBPete Buttigieg6:32

      And, you know, uh, just things that, that weren't possible when there was that, like, every day grind. Um, so I'm enjoying that. I'm trying to make the most of that. But then I'm balancing that with the fact that there's things going on in the world that I feel like I need to be part of or making myself useful around all the time, which is why I'm, I'm, I'm in the media, and I'm traveling, and I'm, I'm doing what I can, working with candidates I believe in, and, uh, promoting causes I believe in, and, uh, uh, you know, just being active politically without being, uh, in an active campaign.

   9. TNTrevor Noah7:03

      Mm.

   10. PBPete Buttigieg7:03

       And it's, it's different. I mean, it's, it's ... It can be strange, uh, uh, sometimes because I am so used to there being-

   11. TNTrevor Noah7:08

       Yeah, yeah, yeah

   12. PBPete Buttigieg7:08

       ... like, the one big thing that, that you organize your life around. Um, but, you know, that can, that can do a lot of work for you in your life, and it can also

8. 7:17 – 8:47

   Can you ever really step away from public service?

   1. PBPete Buttigieg7:17

      be very unhealthy, right? I think one of the-

   2. TNTrevor Noah7:19

      Mm

   3. PBPete Buttigieg7:19

      ... occupational hazards for people, including people in public service who have a lot of purpose in their work, is that your work becomes your purpose-

   4. TNTrevor Noah7:26

      Mm-hmm

   5. PBPete Buttigieg7:26

      ... and then you can't live without it.

   6. TNTrevor Noah7:27

      Right.

   7. PBPete Buttigieg7:28

      And that's, that's especially dangerous in, uh, politics because sometimes doing right by your job means putting your job on the line.

   8. TNTrevor Noah7:35

      Mm-hmm.

   9. PBPete Buttigieg7:35

      It's the only way to do your job well, uh, and maybe losing it. And it's, it's that much harder if, if you draw meaning from work. So yeah, I've been wrestling with all of that, um, but also really m- enjoying a life where I'm, I'm just around my husband and kids more, and at the same time, getting out on the road and, and, and trying to be part of the political conversation, 'cause obviously there's a lot to talk about.

   10. TNTrevor Noah7:54

       It almost feels like you're like a retired superhero.

   11. PBPete Buttigieg7:57

       Yeah. [laughs]

   12. TNTrevor Noah7:58

       I have to say.

   13. PBPete Buttigieg7:59

       Wow.

   14. TNTrevor Noah7:59

       Do you know what I mean? You, you were thinking the same thing.

   15. PBPete Buttigieg8:01

       Exactly.

   16. TNTrevor Noah8:01

       No, you know, you know why? Because e- w- we never think of it.

   17. PBPete Buttigieg8:03

       Yeah.

   18. TNTrevor Noah8:03

       But at some point, a superhero goes, "I'm, I wanna be done."

   19. PBPete Buttigieg8:06

       Yes.

   20. TNTrevor Noah8:07

       "I wanna be with my family."

   21. PBPete Buttigieg8:08

       Mm-hmm.

   22. TNTrevor Noah8:08

       "I wanna be ... " You know, it's like, "I wanna be Clark Kent."

   23. PBPete Buttigieg8:11

       Yes.

   24. TNTrevor Noah8:11

       "I don't wanna spend as much time being Superman." But then what happens?

   25. PBPete Buttigieg8:14

       Dust off the cape once in a while.

   26. TNTrevor Noah8:15

       Exactly, then there's something happening. They're like, "Oh, a tower is falling."

   27. PBPete Buttigieg8:19

       Mm.

   28. TNTrevor Noah8:19

       Or they're like, "Oh, there's a big invasion." Or, and then it's like, "Where's Superman?" And if you were a superhero-

   29. PBPete Buttigieg8:25

       Mm-hmm

   30. TNTrevor Noah8:25

       ... in any capacity, I think it feels weird just sitting at home. 'Cause h- here, here's what I mean.
9. 8:47 – 10:02

   Watching your own work get undone

   1. TNTrevor Noah8:48

      But if you were in the inner workings of it-

   2. PBPete Buttigieg8:50

      Mm

   3. TNTrevor Noah8:51

      ... you have more access to the levers that can actually change something and do something. So l- maybe, maybe that's a good question is, like, what would you say is something you've seen recently in the past few months that has made you go, "Ah, I gotta get off the couch and shave a little bit"?

   4. PBPete Buttigieg9:04

      Yeah. [laughs] I mean, where do you start, right? I mean, obviously so many things are happening in the country under this administration, from these, like, massive things that I think threaten the integrity of the Republic, like, like sending troops into the streets of American cities-

   5. TNTrevor Noah9:17

      Yeah

   6. PBPete Buttigieg9:18

      ... to, like, very specific policy things that I disagree with at, uh, the FTC or whatever, or at, at the department I used to serve in. I mean, one thing that's hard, even if, even if somebody comes in who you agree with, it's, I think it's hard for anyone who leaves a high office to watch their successor. Uh, but it's especially hard for me to watch them dismantle the airline passenger protections-

   7. TNTrevor Noah9:38

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

   8. PBPete Buttigieg9:38

      ... we put in, for example. We worked really hard on that. It was the right thing to do. You know, we took on the airlines, and we won, and now they're just unraveling it. So there's a lot of things like that that are very hard to watch. But, you know, what I've realized is I don't have to be in a seat of political power to be talking about it. I mean, one of the, uh, advantage, uh, privileges, I guess, that comes with just kind of where I fit in the picture right now is, you know, I've ... You know,

10. 10:02 – 11:56

    Going on Fox News to “say this”

    1. PBPete Buttigieg10:02

       like, my unexpected specialty of going on Fox News a lot, right? Like, part of that was I was like everybody else, occasionally finding myself watching that network and being like, "Man, somebody ought to go on there and say this." And then I got to actually be the guy who went on there and said this, right?

    2. TNTrevor Noah10:15

       Be the change.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg10:15

       Mm-hmm. Um, and I can still do that. I mean, I'm not doing it from a position of power.

    4. TNTrevor Noah10:20

       Yeah.

    5. PBPete Buttigieg10:21

       Uh, but, uh, you know, as a citizen, I'm out there talking about this stuff and, and, and I'm hopeful that that matters.

    6. TNTrevor Noah10:27

       I, I wanna talk about each of those things that you said individually.

    7. PBPete Buttigieg10:29

       Mm.

    8. TNTrevor Noah10:30

       Because I think they branch out into topics and ideas that everybody's grappling with right now. So let's start with, like, the first part of it, you know, leaving a position, seeing somebody else step into that position. I think w- we all take that for granted in many ways, 'cause that's, it's very rare that that happens.

    9. PBPete Buttigieg10:48

       Yeah.

    10. TNTrevor Noah10:48

        Most of the time if you leave a position, the person who fills the position after you is generally trying to do the same job as you.

    11. PBPete Buttigieg10:53

        Yeah.

    12. TNTrevor Noah10:53

        Just generally.

    13. PBPete Buttigieg10:54

        Yeah.

    14. TNTrevor Noah10:55

        Do, do you know what I mean?

    15. PBPete Buttigieg10:55

        Mm-hmm.

    16. TNTrevor Noah10:55

        It doesn't matter what level you're on. So i- i- in, in my case, it's like Jon Stewart hosting The Daily Show.

    17. PBPete Buttigieg11:01

        Mm.

    18. TNTrevor Noah11:01

        I come after him. W- we're sort of aligned.

    19. PBPete Buttigieg11:03

        Mm.

    20. TNTrevor Noah11:04

        Do you know what I mean? And obviously we knew each other as people, but we're, we're-

    21. PBPete Buttigieg11:06

        Yeah

    22. TNTrevor Noah11:06

        ... heading in a similar direction as human beings a- and, and so on and so forth. In your office, you leave your job as the head of HR. The next person who comes in does HR. It's weird if they're like, "Nah, I don't believe in HR."

    23. PBPete Buttigieg11:18

        Yeah.

    24. TNTrevor Noah11:19

        "I don't believe in people."

    25. PBPete Buttigieg11:20

        Yeah.

    26. TNTrevor Noah11:20

        And you're like, "What? What, what happened?" They're like, "Yeah, that's, that's not how I roll." [laughs]

    27. PBPete Buttigieg11:24

        True. Well, and you could take it one further.

    28. TNTrevor Noah11:26

        Mm.

    29. PBPete Buttigieg11:26

        So I would say actually in my department, for example-

    30. TNTrevor Noah11:28

        Yeah
11. 11:56 – 12:56

    When your successor puts a Trump sign on your projects

    1. TNTrevor Noah11:56

       in transportation

    2. PBPete Buttigieg11:56

       ... because at least it's still there. Yeah.

    3. TNTrevor Noah11:57

       Yeah.

    4. PBPete Buttigieg11:57

       And even the projects, they killed some really good projects, but most of the projects that I launched, uh, they're still doing. They just put a Trump sign on them so they can take credit for it, but they're still doing the projects. [laughs]

    5. TNTrevor Noah12:06

       Do you mind when that happens?

    6. PBPete Buttigieg12:07

       Yeah, of course I do.

    7. TNTrevor Noah12:08

       [laughs] Okay, I like that.

    8. PBPete Buttigieg12:09

       Yeah.

    9. TNTrevor Noah12:09

       Honest. All right.

    10. PBPete Buttigieg12:10

        Because he He promised when he was president-

    11. TNTrevor Noah12:14

        Yeah

    12. PBPete Buttigieg12:14

        ... that he was gonna do a big infrastructure package, and then he failed.

    13. TNTrevor Noah12:17

        Mm.

    14. PBPete Buttigieg12:17

        And then we set out to a big, do a big infrastructure package, and he campaigned against it. Uh, people forget this.

    15. TNTrevor Noah12:23

        Mm.

    16. PBPete Buttigieg12:23

        It's not just that he didn't do it, it's when we did it, he threatened any Republican who was part of the bipartisan majority that voted to do the infrastructure bill-

    17. TNTrevor Noah12:32

        Yeah, he would go up against them

    18. PBPete Buttigieg12:33

        ... and said, "We will remember."

    19. TNTrevor Noah12:34

        Mm.

    20. PBPete Buttigieg12:34

        And you know, most of them either got taken out or took themselves out for the crime of having joined us to like vote for more road funding, right? Um, and now they're literally like slapping Trump signs on projects that were funded by our department, our administration, with a bill that Trump tried to stop. So yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm kinda pissed off about that.

12. 12:56 – 15:16

    Why America’s politics always flips every four years

    1. TNTrevor Noah12:56

       I, I always wonder if there's a way to like fix that in American politics. Uh, the first time I remember thinking about it was when I first moved to the US. I was reading a newspaper, and well, not a physical one, like digitally. Relax. I saw the way you looked at me. And, um, and I was reading, I was reading the newspaper.

    2. PBPete Buttigieg13:15

       [laughs]

    3. TNTrevor Noah13:15

       And it, it was interesting because it had names.

    4. PBPete Buttigieg13:18

       Yeah.

    5. TNTrevor Noah13:18

       And behind every name it had a little D or a little R.

    6. PBPete Buttigieg13:20

       Mm.

    7. TNTrevor Noah13:21

       And you know, it would say like, "Congressperson da, da, da says this, D, R. Congressperson this, D, R." And I was like, "What, what is, what is that?" And then someone was like, "Oh, that's Democrat, Republican." And it was so normal-

    8. PBPete Buttigieg13:31

       Mm

    9. TNTrevor Noah13:32

       ... to my, to my American friends to say that, but I-

    10. PBPete Buttigieg13:34

        Interesting

    11. TNTrevor Noah13:34

        ... for the life of me, I couldn't understand why news in America-

    12. PBPete Buttigieg13:38

        Yeah

    13. TNTrevor Noah13:38

        ... is filtered through the lens of politics before it's filtered through the news of, of, of, through the lens of news.

    14. PBPete Buttigieg13:44

        I hadn't thought about that. Yeah, any other country, I guess you don't see-

    15. TNTrevor Noah13:47

        No

    16. PBPete Buttigieg13:47

        ... the party label-

    17. TNTrevor Noah13:48

        No, not, not behind your name

    18. PBPete Buttigieg13:49

        ... literally placed on it.

    19. TNTrevor Noah13:49

        Not behind your ... Like in South Africa, for instance, they don't do that.

    20. PBPete Buttigieg13:52

        Yeah.

    21. TNTrevor Noah13:52

        They'll tell you if it's a story about a person who's in the ANC or a person in the DA. They'll say that, but it's not next to your name.

    22. PBPete Buttigieg13:57

        Yeah.

    23. TNTrevor Noah13:58

        It is not the thing that defines-

    24. PBPete Buttigieg13:59

        Mm, doesn't become your identity.

    25. TNTrevor Noah14:00

        Exactly.

    26. PBPete Buttigieg14:01

        Mm.

    27. TNTrevor Noah14:01

        And so even when they propose something-

    28. PBPete Buttigieg14:03

        Yeah

    29. TNTrevor Noah14:03

        ... I, I always wonder how much it blocks Americans in their ability to be for or against an idea.

    30. PBPete Buttigieg14:09

        Yeah.
13. 15:16 – 17:12

    Are Democrats stuck in “normal times” while the rules change?

    1. PBPete Buttigieg15:16

       they're from.

    2. TNTrevor Noah15:16

       It is, it is weird to see America flip and flop, though. I will say that. Like, when you're talking about like one administration wants this, then the next administration wants that, the next administration ... I, I, I was at an event in, um, I wonder where it was. I don't, I don't remember now. Europe, Middle East, somewhere, and there were some world lead- leaders gathered.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg15:34

       Mm.

    4. TNTrevor Noah15:34

       And they were having this discussion about America and its new place in the world, and one of the world leaders said something that was the most interesting thing I'd ever heard, because it gave me a different perspective. The moderator said, "How do you feel about what's happening in America right now, and what do you think this means for the future?" And he said, "Well, I don't really worry about the future. I just know we have to weather this moment for the next three or four years, and then America will flip this way, and then it'll flip that way, and it'll flip that way, and it'll flip this way."

    5. PBPete Buttigieg16:06

       Mm.

    6. TNTrevor Noah16:07

       And he said, "We think longer term."

    7. PBPete Buttigieg16:10

       Yeah.

    8. TNTrevor Noah16:10

       "And we try to think-"

    9. PBPete Buttigieg16:12

       Mm

    10. TNTrevor Noah16:12

        "... beyond one cycle at a time." And there was a, there was a general concession and a, and an agreement amongst the world leaders there who went, "Yeah, that's pretty much America." And if you think about it-

    11. PBPete Buttigieg16:23

        Mm

    12. TNTrevor Noah16:23

        ... it's, it, it is true for the most part.

    13. PBPete Buttigieg16:25

        Mm.

    14. TNTrevor Noah16:26

        America's one of the largest, most prominent countries that completely switches the direction it's going in every single-ish four years. Which is a ... That's like not a thing, really, when you think about it.

    15. PBPete Buttigieg16:41

        Yeah. I think, I'm trying to decide if I, if I buy that. I, I, I think that's somewhat true if we're in a normal political pattern. I think we're outside of that now. Like, I, I, worry that even in my party, I worry that people are acting as if we're in this kinda normal pattern of elections and politics-

    16. TNTrevor Noah17:00

        Yeah

    17. PBPete Buttigieg17:00

        ... when we're actually increasingly outside of it, right? So-

    18. TNTrevor Noah17:02

        In, in what way?

    19. PBPete Buttigieg17:03

        We've always had, uh, someone win an election, somebody aggressively or, or not, like promote their agenda. They win, they lose, whatever.

14. 17:12 – 18:50

    Winning the era vs. winning the election

    1. PBPete Buttigieg17:12

       But we have not had an American government try to consolidate its power over civil society-

    2. TNTrevor Noah17:21

       Right

    3. PBPete Buttigieg17:21

       ... over broadcast companies-

    4. TNTrevor Noah17:23

       Yeah

    5. PBPete Buttigieg17:23

       ... over law firms, over universities. Uh, you know, you just go on down the list-

    6. TNTrevor Noah17:29

       Yeah, yeah

    7. PBPete Buttigieg17:30

       ... the way that we have now. And what I see is, is a real risk that what happens is way beyond, uh, what happens in one election-

    8. TNTrevor Noah17:40

       Yeah

    9. PBPete Buttigieg17:40

       ... or two elections. I think we, I think my party could win in 2026 and not get the message. I think we could even win in 2028 and not fully grasp-

    10. TNTrevor Noah17:48

        Mm

    11. PBPete Buttigieg17:48

        ... the level of change that, that these guys in charge now are trying to achieve.

    12. TNTrevor Noah17:53

        Mm.

    13. PBPete Buttigieg17:53

        Which is why I'm trying to push people who are in the opposition to Trump, whether they think of themselves as Democrats or not, to think at a higher altitude as well about ... Like even my, my organization, a, a nonprofit and a PAC, we call it Win the Era. Um, not that I don't care about winning the election.

    14. TNTrevor Noah18:10

        Mm.

    15. PBPete Buttigieg18:10

        But I think what's more important is to win the era.

    16. TNTrevor Noah18:12

        Right.

    17. PBPete Buttigieg18:14

        When you're thinking of it in those terms, you start looking at, okay, what does it mean to get ready for the next, the way some of these other countries you talked about plan? What does it look like to get ready for the next 5, 10, 20, 30 years?

    18. TNTrevor Noah18:24

        Yeah.

    19. PBPete Buttigieg18:24

        Especially because I think we're also at a change or an end of a certain cycle that has gone on for decades. Like, certain patterns, assumptions, institutions about how the world works and about how the country works that were set up in the '40s and '50s are falling apart. And I don't think we can just go take power, find all the pieces, tape them back together, and have things be the way

15. 18:50 – 19:53

    America’s institutions aren’t broken — they’re outdated

    1. PBPete Buttigieg18:50

       they used to be. I think so many of our institutions have needed to be rebuilt for a long time. They're being smashed to pieces now by the current administration, whi- which is wrong. But it would also be wrong to imagine that this, the answer is to just go back and try to put them back the way they were.

    2. TNTrevor Noah19:05

       Put it back to the way it was.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg19:06

       I know you could say that about anything from the Department of Education to, um, tax policy in this country, uh, which I think we might have to start over on if, if they really break the, the fiscal viability of the country, which I think they're trying, um, to things like international development and USAID.

    4. TNTrevor Noah19:21

       You know what I always wonder? I wonder who pays the actual price.

    5. PBPete Buttigieg19:27

       Hmm.

    6. TNTrevor Noah19:28

       'Cause politics is weird in that when you look at the term generally of a president in a democratic country, it, it's not really enough time to implement change-

    7. PBPete Buttigieg19:40

       Make everything change. Mm-hmm

    8. TNTrevor Noah19:40

       ... and see the effects of that change. Just generally speaking, not all the time.

    9. PBPete Buttigieg19:44

       Mm-hmm.

    10. TNTrevor Noah19:44

        But, like, economies move slowly. Effects generally, you know, happen over time. But I think to myself,

16. 19:53 – 22:48

    Who really pays for political failure

    1. TNTrevor Noah19:53

       like, wouldn't it be crazy? And we've seen this sort of happen before in America. W- wouldn't it be crazy if, like, Trump does all of these things, and then only at the end of his term do you sort of start to see the results? But that means whoever comes in next takes all of the blame.

    2. PBPete Buttigieg20:06

       Yeah.

    3. TNTrevor Noah20:06

       Because that's when you might see the biggest results of education.

    4. PBPete Buttigieg20:08

       Yeah.

    5. TNTrevor Noah20:08

       That's when you might see the biggest results of-

    6. PBPete Buttigieg20:10

       Yeah

    7. TNTrevor Noah20:10

       ... taxes and how they've changed and healthcare that's been cut and-

    8. PBPete Buttigieg20:12

       Not only that, some of them are doing that by design, right? Some of the healthcare cuts they're doing that'll take people off Medicaid, they set up to only take effect after the next election.

    9. TNTrevor Noah20:19

       Oh yeah, they did that.

    10. PBPete Buttigieg20:20

        Right?

    11. TNTrevor Noah20:20

        I forget. Yeah.

    12. PBPete Buttigieg20:20

        They're not stupid [laughs] . Like, they, they know that, that that can happen. But you're right. Even if you are trying to do something immediately, it takes a while to filter through. Uh, I mean, I saw this back when I was mayor. I spent a lot of my first year as mayor doing things that upset people and cost political capital and weren't necessarily popular, believing that if I was right, if they were the right things to do-

    13. TNTrevor Noah20:43

        Mm-hmm

    14. PBPete Buttigieg20:43

        ... by year four, I would have something to show for it, and people would trust me, reelect me, and give me the benefit of the doubt.

    15. TNTrevor Noah20:50

        Oh.

    16. PBPete Buttigieg20:50

        And that's, that's kind of what happened. Um, everything from the way we designed our streets to the way I organized the city administration, people were mad. Uh, we, we stuck to ... I heard them out, but we also stuck to it in some important ways. And, and, and then it, things worked, and then they gave me a little more, uh, credit or a little more trust-

    17. TNTrevor Noah21:07

        Yeah, yeah, yeah

    18. PBPete Buttigieg21:07

        ... the next time around. So I think that, in an ideal sense, is how it's supposed to work, but I agree with you that I think a lot about if, if there was a f- four-year, if there was a five-year instead of a four-year term, and we were able to do just a little more on the bridges and the tunnels and the roads and the stuff that, the, at, at least the, the little piece of it that I worked on-

    19. TNTrevor Noah21:27

        Mm-hmm

    20. PBPete Buttigieg21:27

        ... how would things have been different?

    21. TNTrevor Noah21:30

        I come from a country where there were general elections last year, and no one party won outright.

    22. TNTrevor Noah21:34

        Whoa, whoa, we.

    23. TNTrevor Noah21:36

        I come from a country where [laughs]

    24. TNTrevor Noah21:41

        [laughs]

    25. TNTrevor Noah21:41

        I like how you just kicked me out of my own country.

    26. PBPete Buttigieg21:44

        Whoa.

    27. TNTrevor Noah21:45

        Wow. Wow, wow, wow, Eugene.

    28. TNTrevor Noah21:47

        [laughs]

    29. TNTrevor Noah21:48

        [laughs]

    30. TNTrevor Noah21:49

        Look, I'm sorry.
17. 22:48 – 24:31

    Do politicians actually want young people to vote?

    1. PBPete Buttigieg22:48

       I don't know. That's a really interesting warning for those of us who sometimes fantasize about what it would be like if America had five political parties.

    2. TNTrevor Noah22:56

       Yeah.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg22:57

       Um, and you know, there was a s- there was a minute last year when, uh, Speaker, Speaker McCarthy or whenever it was, McCarthy was losing his grip on the US House. It looked for a minute like he could maybe keep his speakership by getting some Democratic votes. And I thought, "If Democrats name their price and McCarthy goes with it, we could see a coalition government-"

    4. TNTrevor Noah23:17

       Yeah

    5. PBPete Buttigieg23:17

       ... "on American soil for the first time in my life."

    6. TNTrevor Noah23:19

       The centro appeared. That's it.

    7. TNTrevor Noah23:19

       Hmm.

    8. TNTrevor Noah23:19

       Yes.

    9. PBPete Buttigieg23:20

       And I was actually kind of intrigued by that idea.

    10. TNTrevor Noah23:22

        Hmm.

    11. PBPete Buttigieg23:22

        It didn't happen, obviously, but I, I wondered what the, whether that might give us some chance of breaking out of this really stultified-

    12. TNTrevor Noah23:30

        Kind of-

    13. PBPete Buttigieg23:30

        ... paralyzed state that we're in, but-

    14. TNTrevor Noah23:32

        Yeah

    15. PBPete Buttigieg23:32

        ... it sounds like what you're saying is not to romanticize that model too much, 'cause it has its other, um, its other downsides, which, which makes sense. I think for us, the problem we have is here in America, there's no party that actually commands a majority.

    16. TNTrevor Noah23:45

        Mm-hmm.

    17. PBPete Buttigieg23:46

        Right? I mean, both parties, in terms of people who really are like, "Yeah, that's my party," are at, like, something like 30%, right? But every election, y- functionally, pretty much every election for Congress and certainly for the president, it kind of comes down to two, and people are supposed to pick. And then people are dissatisfied with what they get, right? Um, part of what I wish we could do to respond to that is just expand the scope of things that both parties think are inarguably true.

    18. TNTrevor Noah24:16

        Mm-hmm

    19. PBPete Buttigieg24:17

        And will defend, and then go out, argue about the other stuff. So I don't know about South Africa, but I know a lot of countries where if there's a center right party and a center left party, they both, for example, acknowledge the reality of climate change.

18. 24:31 – 25:40

    What if both parties only agree on 30% of the truth?

    1. PBPete Buttigieg24:31

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They'll fight over, they'll fight over who's doing a better job fighting it. Oh, yeah. No, no, that's ... Yes. Yeah. But they won't fight over whether it's a thing. Yeah. Right? Universal healthcare. Here, yeah, a lot of these things are just a given. Education. Yeah. And I'd like to invest a little more in what I think of as the inarguables, that we all ought to be, or most of us ought to be able to, to say we care about. Yeah. Yeah. But then there are all these other things that are contested, that, that, that are fought over, that we still have, like, two-thirds support in the country for. Hm. Um, importantly, lots of things that Democrats are for and Republicans are against, that two-thirds of Americans agree on. I mean, the idea that we gotta tax the wealthy more. The idea that we ought to have a, a, a stronger minimum wage. The idea that, uh, there ought to be paid family leave- Yeah ... in this country when you have a kid. Uh, ideas around a woman's right to choose, or, uh, freedom to marry. Mm-hmm. Or climate change. Mm-hmm. Or background checks on guns. These are not, like, 51/49 things. These are actually, like, 60 or 70% consensus positions in the country. Wow. Yeah. And yet my party can't figure out how to get 51%, let alone 60 or 70. Mm-hmm. Uh, on our candidates. I think that needs to lead to some introspection on, on how we, how we approach these issues.

19. 25:40 – 27:07

    AI: the one issue not yet poisoned by politics

    1. PBPete Buttigieg25:40

       And then this, this other set of issues that I'm spending a lot of time thinking about, that don't have any left to right pattern yet. I'm thinking about, a lot about artificial intelligence, right? Where I think most people, left, right, or center, are skeptical of a lot of these tech companies. Yeah. Interested in AI. Mm-hmm. If only 'cause we use it, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ChatGPT or whatever, we use more and more in our day-to-day lives. Excited about what it can do, but also very worried about what it might do to us. And there's this moment where it hasn't fallen into this obvious left/right fight yet. Mm-hmm. That's interesting. Mm-hmm. But what COVID taught us the hard way is that even something like public health and getting vaccinated, uh, that you would think was not a partisan thing, almost overnight became one. Yeah. Which tells me that this is a very special and narrow window around AI, to talk about things that might be shared principles before we figure out what to fight over [laughs] Huh ... between Democrats and Republicans. That's really good. You know what I mean? That, that ... Yeah, that actually is a fascinating idea to think about- Mm-hmm ... is like, when does an issue suddenly become politicized? Mm-hmm. And when is it not? I distinctly remember, because, I mean, I was, like, in the thick of things when it was COVID, and it was ... I distinctly remember seeing one of the strangest flips. Hm. And it was how Donald Trump was pushing forward for a vaccine. Right. Donald Trump was. Mm-hmm. I'll say this again. Donald Trump was pushing forward with a vaccine, and he was leading a team that was, like,

20. 27:07 – 29:35

    How vaccines became partisan overnight

    1. PBPete Buttigieg27:07

       it was Operation something. Yeah, Warp Speed. Warp Speed. Yeah. Operation Warp Speed. Yeah. And it was like Donald Trump. And I, I'll never forget this moment. I would see liberals, progressives, Democrats, whoever, whatever they wanna call, I would see tons of them going, "I don't trust his vaccine. Hm. This man is ... How are they making it so quickly?" Hm. "How are they rushing the ... I don't trust. Donald Trump's gonna make a v-" [laughs] And then I was like, "Guys, Donald Trump's not in the lab." Mm-hmm. It's not like he's there with, like, his little vial, and he's like, "Add two, add two of these. Four drops. I think I got it. Whoopee doopey doo." [laughs] No. He's leading a task force- Yeah ... that is trying to get it. Yeah. Then they were like, "I just don't trust it. I just don't trust it." Hm. And then Biden wins. Mm. During COVID. Mm. Biden's in charge now. Mm. They keep moving forward with the vaccine, which I still say is Trump's vaccine, and by the way, which Trump has said is his vaccine. Mm. And then I noticed everyone flip. All of a sudden, people were like, "Well, I ... Of course I trust it." And then now the flip happened the other way, the other way around. Yes. It's like people were like, "I don't trust that vaccine. I don't trust the Democrats." Right. And I was like, what just happened here? Yeah. Has it become so, like, red and blue that it, you, you, do, you get what I'm saying? Yeah. You can literally just flip- Yeah ... based on- No, it's true ... who's, who's telling you something. Yeah, who's telling ... And then Trump- Mm-hmm ... he went to, I don't know if you saw this, he went to one of his rallies. I will never forget this. And then he said, "It's my vaccine." Say it in his voice. In, in the crowd. Oh, he's there, and he's like, "It's my ... I, I created the vaccine. Joe Biden taking credit for my vaccine, taking credit. I did it. I did it." And then the crowd was like, "Boo. Boo." [laughs] Crowd was like, "Boo." And then he's like, "Yeah, a lot of people don't like it, but it was mine. It was mine. I did it. I did it." [laughs] And his crowd was booing- Hm ... the idea of the vaccine. Yes. And Trump was like, "No, no, no. It's mine." It's mine. Yes. And even now in moments, you'll see him slip. If someone asks him- Hm ... "Who made it?" He'll be like, "Well, I made it." But then he sort of says it like Joe's, Joe's, Joe spoiled it. Hm. But he still goes, "He made it." And I'm like, what happened in that moment? I love that you brought up the AI thing. Mm-hmm. Because it's like, when does a topic or an issue become politicized in America? Yeah. And I, I was wondering, do ... 'Cause I know you, you spend a lot of time thinking about this. Is it when the groups know which lever to pull? Hm. Is it when ... Like s- like for instance, I, I, I often think that sometimes American politics is thought of as this, um, this pure ideal, idea and ideal that's hanging on its own,

21. 29:35 – 31:10

    When corporations choose a side before voters do

    1. PBPete Buttigieg29:35

       and we sometimes forget how many outside forces are poking and prodding at it. Hm. Yeah. Right? So if I run a major corporation, and I'm trying to get AI, you know, I, I wanna get as few restrictions as possible. I wanna be in a power position. I think all I would do is look at which party would be more amenable to getting me what I want. Mm. And then I would try frame it so that AI is in or out of the other party's wheelhouse. Does that, does that- Yeah, for sure ... does that sound, like, real to you? Yeah. Or even familiar to you? No, that's right, and I think companies do that all the time. Mm-hmm. Like, they figure out a way, if, if, you know, you're running a clean tech company- Yeah ... and Trump wins, and suddenly anything green is out of fashion, maybe it's smarter to talk about it in terms of, uh, contributing to American energy independence- Oh, there you go ... or American energy dominance. Okay. Which is also true, right? Mm-hmm. That's one thing that, like, green energy has to say for itself. Now, it doesn't ... Well, I mean, Trump's still killing wind power, but that, I think that happens all the time on some level. I think also, though, a lot of this is downstream from culture, as they say, right? Yeah. That, that the politic, politicians kind of flatter themselves or ourselves that, that we're shaping things. Yeah. Hm. Sometimes we do. Obviously leadership decisions matter hugely. But l- a lot of times A lot of things have worked through the culture before you even get to the, the, the, the left and right boundaries of what politicians get to do.

    2. TNTrevor Noah30:51

       Oh, that's interesting.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg30:51

       Right. And then sometimes it can come back out. So think about tech, right? Think, um, not AI. Think about social media.

    4. TNTrevor Noah30:59

       Yeah.

    5. PBPete Buttigieg31:00

       So it starts with kind of like left vibes, right?

    6. TNTrevor Noah31:04

       Mm-hmm.

    7. PBPete Buttigieg31:04

       Think of like early internet days.

    8. TNTrevor Noah31:05

       Yes.

    9. PBPete Buttigieg31:05

       These guys like basically seem like Democrats, 'cause they're, maybe they're more libertarian

22. 31:10 – 33:22

    How culture decides politics before Congress does

    1. PBPete Buttigieg31:10

       deep down.

    2. TNTrevor Noah31:10

       Mm-hmm.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg31:10

       But like they're young, they're socially liberal, they think climate change is real, they care about immigration, you know. And, you know, you've got Obama hanging out with tech CEOs. That seems like a very natural thing-

    4. TNTrevor Noah31:22

       Right. Yes

    5. PBPete Buttigieg31:22

       ... in like 2012, say. Right? Then these things happen with the way social media affects the election, the role of Twitter, and suddenly it's, gets more complicated than that. And you come to this point where actually now when you think tech CEO, Silicon Valley tech CEO-

    6. TNTrevor Noah31:39

       Yeah

    7. PBPete Buttigieg31:40

       ... you are more likely to think of them at that dinner in the Trump f- you know, White House-

    8. TNTrevor Noah31:45

       Right. Right

    9. PBPete Buttigieg31:46

       ... than, um, thinking of them like rubbing elbows with Obama, right?

    10. TNTrevor Noah31:50

        Mm-hmm.

    11. PBPete Buttigieg31:51

        And yet-

    12. TNTrevor Noah31:51

        Wow

    13. PBPete Buttigieg31:52

        ... even though the, that's been kind of coded either way, one of the few like kind of areas where the horseshoe has come together on our political spectrum is the idea of getting phones and social media apps out of our schools.

    14. TNTrevor Noah32:05

        Hmm.

    15. PBPete Buttigieg32:06

        So you've got really right-wing, like MAGA right-wing politicians. Uh, Josh Hawley comes to mind-

    16. TNTrevor Noah32:14

        Yeah

    17. PBPete Buttigieg32:14

        ... who I would disagree with on ferociously, [laughs] strongly on lots and lots of things, um, uh, teaming up with more liberal politicians. A- and not just federally, but the state level.

    18. TNTrevor Noah32:24

        Mm-hmm.

    19. PBPete Buttigieg32:25

        Saying things like, "Yeah, a, a, a, a screen should not be with a kid, uh, during the hours that they're in school."

    20. TNTrevor Noah32:31

        Hmm.

    21. PBPete Buttigieg32:31

        "Because that's a distraction, it's a problem, it's a vector for a lot of bad things to get into their, their minds." And there's actually something of a consensus. I don't think that's happening because the politicians got together and said, "Hey, we gotta find something that we can agree on. What about this?" Or put, to put it another way, if that happened, it happened after more and more parents who didn't agree on politics-

    22. TNTrevor Noah32:51

        Yeah

    23. PBPete Buttigieg32:51

        ... didn't agree on what they thought of, you know, this or that election or how-

    24. TNTrevor Noah32:54

        Yeah

    25. PBPete Buttigieg32:54

        ... social media played, but definitely agreed on, "Oh wow, this could be screwing up my kid"

    26. TNTrevor Noah32:57

        Hmm

    27. PBPete Buttigieg32:59

        ... uh, start to feel the same way about this issue. And that pressure then finds its w- which is healthy, by the way.

    28. TNTrevor Noah33:04

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    29. PBPete Buttigieg33:04

        That pressure finds its way into the political system.

    30. TNTrevor Noah33:05

        Hmm.
23. 33:22 – 36:32

    How voters can feel less helpless

    1. TNTrevor Noah33:22

       What always helps a voter not feel helpless? Because sometimes people think-

    2. PBPete Buttigieg33:26

       Yeah

    3. TNTrevor Noah33:26

       ... of government as this big juggernaut that's gonna-

    4. PBPete Buttigieg33:28

       Yeah

    5. TNTrevor Noah33:28

       ... happen with or without you, and you're just happy for smaller wins. Like, for example, in my country, people who are-

    6. PBPete Buttigieg33:33

       Our country.

    7. TNTrevor Noah33:36

       Pete, you know what I mean. [laughs]

    8. PBPete Buttigieg33:39

       [laughs] I'll stay out of this one.

    9. TNTrevor Noah33:44

       [laughs] Our country, Trevor.

    10. TNTrevor Noah33:47

        Thank you, Eugene.

    11. TNTrevor Noah33:48

        You're welcome. People who are mostly underprivileged or underserviced will always worry about social grants. If you can sort that out-

    12. PBPete Buttigieg33:57

        Mm-hmm

    13. TNTrevor Noah33:57

        ... or cheaper housing. If you can sort that out, whether it takes you four years of your tenure or the last two months of it, it will happen. Just the hope of it-

    14. PBPete Buttigieg34:05

        Yeah

    15. TNTrevor Noah34:05

        ... is always enough. So how do people feel empowered that whoever they voted for, um, will always do what they promised? How do you hold the person that you voted for accountable?

    16. PBPete Buttigieg34:15

        Yeah.

    17. TNTrevor Noah34:16

        Because obviously that seems like protesting on social media becomes a thing.

    18. TNTrevor Noah34:19

        Right. I think that's, I think that's universal.

    19. TNTrevor Noah34:21

        Yeah.

    20. TNTrevor Noah34:21

        I think that's every country-

    21. TNTrevor Noah34:21

        Yeah

    22. TNTrevor Noah34:21

        ... to be honest. It is a great question.

    23. TNTrevor Noah34:23

        Yeah.

    24. PBPete Buttigieg34:24

        Well, look, the answer is supposed to be the election, right?

    25. TNTrevor Noah34:26

        Mm-hmm.

    26. PBPete Buttigieg34:27

        But look at our system. I mean, in addition to the, um, all the problems around presidential elections, including the fact that we're the only presidential democracy in the world where the person who gets the second most votes can get the office and the person who gets the most votes loses-

    27. TNTrevor Noah34:42

        Mm-hmm

    28. PBPete Buttigieg34:42

        ... because of the electoral college. But in addition to that, you look at the congressional level, and out of 435 seats in the US House, less than one in 10, less than 40, are actually considered competitive.

    29. TNTrevor Noah34:56

        Less than 40?

    30. PBPete Buttigieg34:57

        Yeah. So even though we are, let's say, typically a 55/45 country in terms of which way the country feels, which party the country supports, you, you have states, like where I grew up in Indiana.
24. 36:32 – 38:40

    Why local action still changes lives

    1. PBPete Buttigieg36:32

       even be eligible to vote, and said, "Hey, this decision's gonna impact me." And they spoke with a kind of moral authority that, that young people have.

    2. TNTrevor Noah36:40

       Hmm.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg36:41

       And it got people's attention, and it, it, it changed things So that's one example of, of where I think people sometimes have more power than they might imagine.

    4. TNTrevor Noah36:50

       Mm-hmm.

    5. PBPete Buttigieg36:50

       Even if I understand why, and share why so many of us feel disempowered when it comes to national politics. Another thing is to recognize that you don't have to wait for the next election-

    6. TNTrevor Noah37:01

       Ah

    7. PBPete Buttigieg37:01

       ... to be having an effect.

    8. TNTrevor Noah37:02

       There you go. Yes.

    9. PBPete Buttigieg37:02

       So of course, periodically you have these elections, that's the kind of ultimate check on some-

    10. TNTrevor Noah37:06

        Mm-hmm

    11. PBPete Buttigieg37:06

        ... on power, assuming the elections take place appropriately. But in the meantime, some stuff that sounds very old-fashioned, like getting in the streets or calling your member of Congress, matters. You can tell it matters because of, uh, what happened at these town halls, where a lot of people-

    12. TNTrevor Noah37:22

        Yes

    13. PBPete Buttigieg37:22

        ... especially when the Republicans were cutting Medicaid, a lot of people went to the town halls and said, "If you cut Medicaid to give tax cuts to wealthy people, it's gonna do this to me, and I'm pissed."

    14. TNTrevor Noah37:31

        Yeah.

    15. PBPete Buttigieg37:32

        And it mattered enough that, uh, a lot of these members either stopped doing the town halls completely-

    16. TNTrevor Noah37:36

        Mm-hmm, mm

    17. PBPete Buttigieg37:37

        ... or had these moments that showed that that really shook them, right? So I think that we need to get more in the habit of flexing political muscle offline.

    18. TNTrevor Noah37:46

        As citizens.

    19. PBPete Buttigieg37:47

        Not just-

    20. TNTrevor Noah37:48

        Mm-hmm

    21. PBPete Buttigieg37:48

        ... on our, you know, on our smartphones. But yeah, as citizens in a very real IRL human 3D format. And the, the other thing I would say, back to our thing about culture, is that a lot of the, the kind of battlefield of ideas in politics is inside people's social circles and their families.

    22. TNTrevor Noah38:07

        Yeah.

    23. PBPete Buttigieg38:08

        And I wonder if actually because it's so easy for us to spout off on politics online, we're actually less likely to have a hard political conversation with someone we know or care about.

    24. TNTrevor Noah38:18

        Mm.

    25. PBPete Buttigieg38:19

        But those are the people you can actually move, right? Like, we, we know time and time again, we've seen, like, people's hearts and minds change when somebody they already know and trust shapes the way they think about something. And I th- I worry that we might be doing less of that in a moment-

    26. TNTrevor Noah38:35

        Yeah

    27. PBPete Buttigieg38:35

        ... where we need to be doing more.

    28. TNTrevor Noah38:36

        Yeah, interpersonal mobilization.

    29. PBPete Buttigieg38:38

        Absolutely.

    30. TNTrevor Noah38:38

        Yeah.
25. 38:40 – 40:40

    The power of uncomfortable conversations

    1. TNTrevor Noah38:40

       You know, it's funny, I, I think of it less as changing people's minds, and I think of it more as just being around people who change you and how your mind works.

    2. PBPete Buttigieg38:49

       Mm.

    3. TNTrevor Noah38:49

       Right.

    4. TNTrevor Noah38:50

       Like, the reason I, I think of it is I remember reading a book about how the views and opinions that we hold are oftentimes more influenced by our locales and our location-

    5. PBPete Buttigieg39:03

       Yeah.

    6. TNTrevor Noah39:03

       Right

    7. TNTrevor Noah39:04

       ... than how we think we think.

    8. PBPete Buttigieg39:05

       Mm.

    9. TNTrevor Noah39:06

       Right?

    10. TNTrevor Noah39:06

        Mm-hmm.

    11. TNTrevor Noah39:07

        And I, I remember f- I finished reading the book and I thought to myself, "Huh, maybe you're not conservative, you just live in a rural area."

    12. PBPete Buttigieg39:14

        Mm-hmm.

    13. TNTrevor Noah39:14

        Right.

    14. TNTrevor Noah39:15

        "And maybe you're not actually liberal-

    15. PBPete Buttigieg39:17

        Yeah

    16. TNTrevor Noah39:17

        ... you just live in a major metropolis."

    17. PBPete Buttigieg39:20

        Yeah.

    18. TNTrevor Noah39:20

        And I'm not dismissing anybody's political views, but I think it's inevitable that if you move to a major city where there are more people who have come from more places, you're gonna be exposed. You're in New York, you're walking around, and you're like, "This is how I think men dress." Within the day you're like, "Well, I, maybe I don't know how men dress." And if you-

    19. TNTrevor Noah39:36

        I've been resisting that.

    20. TNTrevor Noah39:37

        Yeah. [laughs] When you're around it. But when you're around it enough-

    21. TNTrevor Noah39:40

        Pete, I have been resisting.

    22. TNTrevor Noah39:42

        [laughs]

    23. TNTrevor Noah39:43

        'Cause I'm keeping my fashion sense until I leave. [laughs]

    24. TNTrevor Noah39:45

        Stay here long enough.

    25. TNTrevor Noah39:46

        I've seen what the men here

    26. TNTrevor Noah39:47

        Stay here long enough, you'll see.

    27. TNTrevor Noah39:48

        [laughs]

    28. PBPete Buttigieg39:48

        What, what are, what are your tools of resistance?

    29. TNTrevor Noah39:50

        My wardrobe.

    30. PBPete Buttigieg39:51

        Oh.
26. 40:40 – 42:09

    The beard, the Overton Window, and political fashion

    1. TNTrevor Noah40:40

       You know, whatever it is, shifts in society, and all of a sudden it's like, oh, look at that. Oh, uh, that, that news anchor has a beard, oh, and that TV presenter has a beard.

    2. PBPete Buttigieg40:48

       Ah.

    3. TNTrevor Noah40:48

       And your teacher has a beard. And, and then society doesn't realize that the Overton window of a beard has shifted. Same thing happened with tattoos, right?

    4. PBPete Buttigieg40:55

       Mm. Yeah.

    5. TNTrevor Noah40:55

       There was a time when a tattoo was a great way to know who you shouldn't hire.

    6. TNTrevor Noah40:59

       Mm.

    7. PBPete Buttigieg40:59

       Yeah.

    8. TNTrevor Noah40:59

       That's how people thought of it.

    9. PBPete Buttigieg41:00

       Mm.

    10. TNTrevor Noah41:00

        Oh, tattoo.

    11. PBPete Buttigieg41:01

        Yeah.

    12. TNTrevor Noah41:01

        I guess we're not hiring you.

    13. PBPete Buttigieg41:02

        Yeah.

    14. TNTrevor Noah41:03

        And then now, a tattoo almost means nothing.

    15. PBPete Buttigieg41:06

        Mm-hmm.

    16. TNTrevor Noah41:06

        It's like it's not ... It, it, it is not a signifier that tells you about how somebody does or doesn't live their lives. Not that it ever was.

    17. TNTrevor Noah41:12

        Yeah.

    18. TNTrevor Noah41:12

        But now it definitely isn't, even in society's view, for the most part.

    19. PBPete Buttigieg41:15

        Yeah.

    20. TNTrevor Noah41:16

        And so when, when I think about these things, and I think about, like, the Overton window and-

    21. PBPete Buttigieg41:20

        Mm

    22. TNTrevor Noah41:20

        ... and how it shifts in politics, I w- I wonder if you've thought about it on a local level versus a national level, because you, you are in an interesting position.

    23. PBPete Buttigieg41:30

        Yeah.

    24. TNTrevor Noah41:30

        You were a mayor.

    25. PBPete Buttigieg41:31

        Mm-hmm.

    26. TNTrevor Noah41:32

        As a mayor, you're only trying to shape the lives of the people who are in the same town that you live in.

    27. PBPete Buttigieg41:39

        Mm-hmm.

    28. TNTrevor Noah41:39

        You know?

    29. TNTrevor Noah41:39

        Mm.

    30. TNTrevor Noah41:40

        We all know the streets. We all know that corner.
27. 42:09 – 43:30

    How nationalizing politics kills local problem-solving

    1. PBPete Buttigieg42:09

       our work was distant from what was going on in Washington-

    2. TNTrevor Noah42:14

       Oh, okay

    3. PBPete Buttigieg42:14

       ... or national politics.

    4. TNTrevor Noah42:15

       Hmm.

    5. PBPete Buttigieg42:16

       And I think that's one of the reasons, without ever concealing where I was, that I was a Democrat, that I was more progressive than probably most people in my city, I had, you know, e- before I became more of a national figure, I had, like, equal approval rating among Republicans, Democrats, and independents in the city.

    6. TNTrevor Noah42:32

       Oh, wow.

    7. PBPete Buttigieg42:32

       Because they weren't ... They just wanted to know if I was gonna get the trash picked up.

    8. TNTrevor Noah42:35

       Yes.

    9. PBPete Buttigieg42:35

       And are we gonna-

    10. TNTrevor Noah42:36

        Yeah

    11. PBPete Buttigieg42:36

        ... like, grow the local economy.

    12. TNTrevor Noah42:37

        Yes.

    13. PBPete Buttigieg42:37

        You know, what were we doing about these, this blocking and tackling, like, basic things to take care of the city. And so I guess to your question, I'd say it's one, in one way easier, in one way harder. The, the way that it was easier was we were all operating from pretty consistent- Sense of the facts.

    14. TNTrevor Noah42:56

        Mm.

    15. PBPete Buttigieg42:57

        So if there was a hole in the road, as the mayor, I couldn't be like, "That's the best road ever. There's no holes in it." And-

    16. TNTrevor Noah43:04

        Yeah, there's a pothole

    17. PBPete Buttigieg43:04

        ... you know, like people could see, and they'd be like, "There's a hole in the road. What are you gonna do about it?" Right? If something was good or something was bad, people could just tell. And so there was much less of a contest over what the facts were.

    18. TNTrevor Noah43:14

        Wow. Yes.

    19. PBPete Buttigieg43:15

        And much more of a contest of, given these facts, what are you gonna do about it?

    20. TNTrevor Noah43:17

        What you gonna do about it?

    21. PBPete Buttigieg43:18

        Right?

    22. TNTrevor Noah43:18

        Mm-hmm.

    23. PBPete Buttigieg43:19

        There's the good, the bad, and the ugly.

    24. TNTrevor Noah43:20

        Yeah.

    25. PBPete Buttigieg43:20

        And the ugly was we had, because we'd been a factory town, we had acres of collapsing auto factories everywhere.

    26. TNTrevor Noah43:27

        Interesting. Damn.

    27. PBPete Buttigieg43:27

        And vacant and abandoned houses everywhere,

28. 43:30 – 46:24

    Reality, imagination, and fixing potholes

    1. PBPete Buttigieg43:30

       and you couldn't escape it. You couldn't pretend otherwise. And so what was easier was we at least had the same reality.

    2. TNTrevor Noah43:36

       Mm.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg43:37

       Uh, compared to nationally, where ... I mean, you can tell, like the way, like the way Donald Trump talks about American cities-

    4. TNTrevor Noah43:42

       Yes

    5. PBPete Buttigieg43:43

       ... he's clearly just using his imagination.

    6. TNTrevor Noah43:45

       Yeah.

    7. PBPete Buttigieg43:45

       Right? This is not based on any experience of what it's actually like.

    8. TNTrevor Noah43:48

       Yeah, or maybe-

    9. PBPete Buttigieg43:49

       To be in these cities

    10. TNTrevor Noah43:49

        ... it's social media feed. 'Cause I think we take for granted how much that man is on social media.

    11. PBPete Buttigieg43:53

        Totally.

    12. TNTrevor Noah43:53

        Do you know what I mean?

    13. PBPete Buttigieg43:54

        Totally. Yeah.

    14. TNTrevor Noah43:54

        Mm.

    15. PBPete Buttigieg43:55

        Now, here's the way it's harder. It's harder because if you're trying to pry open an O- Overton Window, the more that the reality you're trying to describe that's different is kind of in somebody's face, I think the harder it is to picture something different. I, I, I can try to open somebody's Overton Window, and I have, about changing the electoral college.

    16. TNTrevor Noah44:13

        Yeah.

    17. PBPete Buttigieg44:13

        Like, I talked about that when I was running for president, which probably not the smartest thing to do in New Hampshire.

    18. TNTrevor Noah44:17

        [laughs]

    19. PBPete Buttigieg44:18

        And I definitely didn't think that that was gonna, like, happen in five years, but I just think, like, I should lay down a marker from the earliest in my career till the end about that being important and try to, like, push, push, push, so like one day 20 years from now, maybe we will fix it. But when you're asking people to look around the vacant and abandoned houses in their neighborhood or look at the abandoned factory downtown-

    20. TNTrevor Noah44:41

        Mm-hmm

    21. PBPete Buttigieg44:41

        ... and say with a straight face, "It doesn't have to be this way. We can change it."

    22. TNTrevor Noah44:46

        Wow.

    23. PBPete Buttigieg44:46

        "If you trust me, I will change it."

    24. TNTrevor Noah44:47

        Mm-hmm.

    25. PBPete Buttigieg44:48

        "Give me a chance."

    26. TNTrevor Noah44:49

        Mm-hmm.

    27. PBPete Buttigieg44:50

        Um, that can require even more of a, a push on the imagination than I want it when I'm talking in abstract terms about what we might want our country to be like.

    28. TNTrevor Noah44:59

        Okay.

    29. PBPete Buttigieg44:59

        Right?

    30. TNTrevor Noah45:00

        Yeah, that makes sense.
29. 46:24 – 47:40

    Why social feeds make us arrogant

    1. PBPete Buttigieg46:24

       doing something that, that looks good-

    2. TNTrevor Noah46:26

       Yeah

    3. PBPete Buttigieg46:27

       ... and reminds me why they're amazing.

    4. TNTrevor Noah46:28

       Mm.

    5. PBPete Buttigieg46:29

       And here's this person I already don't like doing something which reminds me why I don't like them.

    6. TNTrevor Noah46:33

       Yeah.

    7. PBPete Buttigieg46:33

       And that's it. Right? And I think it, it, it makes it that much harder for us to have any humility about why we are where we are on the political spectrum and, and, and why we believe what we believe about what ought to happen next.

    8. TNTrevor Noah46:47

       Yeah. I think as you separate communities, that becomes the first thing. Like, we had, um, Robert Putnam on the podcast-

    9. PBPete Buttigieg46:54

       Mm

    10. TNTrevor Noah46:54

        ... a while ago, and he wrote that amazing book, Bowling Alone.

    11. PBPete Buttigieg46:57

        Yes.

    12. TNTrevor Noah46:57

        And the fundamental ... I mean, you, you're familiar with it, but for those who don't know, the fundamental premise of the book was he wanted to study why some societies work and why some don't, and when he was in Italy, where he was studying it, he came to realize that in Italy, which is a relatively small country-

    13. PBPete Buttigieg47:14

        Mm

    14. TNTrevor Noah47:14

        ... especially in, like, in size itself, he saw that some towns and cities were doing particularly well, and people trusted the government. They engaged in the government, and there was low levels of corruption. And this is what interested me 'cause, you know, from our country, I, uh [laughs] I was thinking. I was like, "Why is corruption worse or better in some places?" And he found one of the most interesting correlations, and it was just about how strong

30. 47:40 – 49:20

    Bowling Alone and the death of community

    1. TNTrevor Noah47:40

       community bonds were.

    2. PBPete Buttigieg47:41

       Yeah.

    3. TNTrevor Noah47:41

       So in places where there were still church choirs and community bowls and clubs, whether it was coffee-

    4. PBPete Buttigieg47:49

       Social clubs

    5. TNTrevor Noah47:49

       ... or debate. Social clubs.

    6. PBPete Buttigieg47:51

       Mm-hmm.

    7. TNTrevor Noah47:51

       He found was the biggest correlation-

    8. PBPete Buttigieg47:54

       Interesting

    9. TNTrevor Noah47:54

       ... between how the thing worked. And then when he brought it to America, he almost instantly found it was, it was true.

    10. PBPete Buttigieg48:00

        Mm.

    11. TNTrevor Noah48:01

        Where people had bowling clubs is where they generally were less polarized-

    12. PBPete Buttigieg48:05

        Mm

    13. TNTrevor Noah48:05

        ... and where they had more community, and they, they, they, they moved in unison in a different way. Didn't mean- It doesn't mean they all had the same view.

    14. PBPete Buttigieg48:11

        Mm.

    15. TNTrevor Noah48:12

        But he found it was because you had spaces where people could sit together, not coming to talk about politics, but because of the in-between time, would just talk about things-

    16. PBPete Buttigieg48:22

        Yeah

    17. TNTrevor Noah48:22

        ... that might be political. So they would say, to your point-

    18. PBPete Buttigieg48:25

        Mm

    19. TNTrevor Noah48:25

        ... "Hey, man, you see that hole in the road? What's been going on?"

    20. PBPete Buttigieg48:28

        Mm-hmm.

    21. TNTrevor Noah48:28

        Another person goes like, "Well, I heard, uh, this guy Mayor Pete says he's gonna fix ... What do you think of that guy?"

    22. PBPete Buttigieg48:32

        Mm.

    23. TNTrevor Noah48:32

        "I don't know, man. What do you think? What do you think?" But because you know me and I know you and we're bowling together-

    24. PBPete Buttigieg48:37

        Mm

    25. TNTrevor Noah48:37

        ... we're more likely to form opinions that are-

    26. PBPete Buttigieg48:41

        Yeah

    27. TNTrevor Noah48:41

        ... shaped by the collective as opposed to individually, and it's less of an echo chamber.

    28. PBPete Buttigieg48:44

        Yeah.

    29. TNTrevor Noah48:45

        Right? And that made me rethink everything. I even started, quote-unquote, "judging America less" because I went, "Maybe America's not polarized. Maybe America's just isolated."

    30. PBPete Buttigieg48:56

        You know? And he shows it, like, starts with TV.
31. 49:20 – 50:20

    Why isolation feels like polarization

    1. TNTrevor Noah49:20

       would be called a dictator before-

    2. PBPete Buttigieg49:21

       Mm-hmm

    3. TNTrevor Noah49:22

       ... has become more prevalent. We see it now-

    4. PBPete Buttigieg49:24

       Mm-hmm

    5. TNTrevor Noah49:24

       ... with countries that we won't mention their names, and we know them.

    6. PBPete Buttigieg49:26

       [laughs]

    7. TNTrevor Noah49:26

       And India [coughs] and South Africa. So we know those countries, and the strongman is, is ... And I think it makes sense now, 'cause I've been battling with this question, is why councilors locally and municipal managers and mayors are not taken seriously-

    8. PBPete Buttigieg49:43

       Right

    9. TNTrevor Noah49:43

       ... is because people think there's an overlord somewhere-

    10. PBPete Buttigieg49:45

        Yeah

    11. TNTrevor Noah49:45

        ... that can effect change-

    12. PBPete Buttigieg49:46

        Oh, interesting

    13. TNTrevor Noah49:46

        ... immediately.

    14. PBPete Buttigieg49:47

        Yeah.

    15. TNTrevor Noah49:47

        Then you go, "No, don't worry about him."

    16. PBPete Buttigieg49:48

        Yeah.

    17. TNTrevor Noah49:48

        "He probably doesn't even know there's a pothole in this street, but I do." But people have looked at the world now, like I said.

    18. PBPete Buttigieg49:54

        Right.

    19. TNTrevor Noah49:54

        People would have assumed before-

    20. PBPete Buttigieg49:56

        Yeah

    21. TNTrevor Noah49:56

        ... that a Putin, a Zelenskyy, a Trump, or Ramaphosa, whoever in Africa, would've been a dictator 10 years ago.

    22. PBPete Buttigieg50:01

        Yeah.

    23. TNTrevor Noah50:02

        But since now, it looks like if he's a strongman and he's rolling with strongmen, it looks like we're safe, generally, as a population. But I also think, [sighs] I think people generally, as voters, have lost hope in the system.

    24. PBPete Buttigieg50:15

        Mm.

    25. TNTrevor Noah50:16

        I, I see it every time. I see when people go, "Ah, what can we do?"

    26. PBPete Buttigieg50:18

        I think that's true everywhere.

    27. TNTrevor Noah50:19

        That, that phrase-

32. 50:20 – 51:47

    Democracy or the strongman: the choice ahead

    1. TNTrevor Noah50:20

       Yeah ... is, is very prevalent everywhere now when you travel the world.

    2. PBPete Buttigieg50:22

       I think that's true everywhere, yeah.

    3. TNTrevor Noah50:23

       "What can we do?"

    4. PBPete Buttigieg50:24

       Hmm. But in a democratic, even a complicated democratic society like ours, I think the answer comes back on us.

    5. TNTrevor Noah50:32

       Mm.

    6. PBPete Buttigieg50:32

       Like, if there's something wrong, either with an individual policy in our system or with the system itself, we're responsible, 'cause who else is gonna, right?

    7. TNTrevor Noah50:44

       Yeah.

    8. PBPete Buttigieg50:44

       I mean, it's either the strongman-

    9. TNTrevor Noah50:46

       Mm-hmm

    10. PBPete Buttigieg50:46

        ... or it's us. And if it's us, if the entire ... And, and I would argue, I have a very different view of what it means to be American than people like JD Vance. My view is what it means to be an American has a lot to do with this civic structure we created, this democratic structure we have. Um-

    11. TNTrevor Noah51:01

        Go deeper into that.

    12. PBPete Buttigieg51:03

        Well, one way to think of it is this. The fact that we have a word un-American-

    13. TNTrevor Noah51:08

        Yeah

    14. PBPete Buttigieg51:08

        ... which gets abused and, and, and, and, um, used as a weapon. But the fact that we even have that word-

    15. TNTrevor Noah51:15

        Hmm

    16. PBPete Buttigieg51:15

        ... is telling, because I don't know what you could do to be un-French-

    17. TNTrevor Noah51:21

        South African

    18. PBPete Buttigieg51:21

        ... or un-South African.

    19. TNTrevor Noah51:22

        Yeah, we don't, we don't-

    20. PBPete Buttigieg51:22

        Unghanese

    21. TNTrevor Noah51:23

        ... we generally don't have that as a thing.

    22. PBPete Buttigieg51:25

        Yeah. And I think what it signals is we believe that actually a certain set, a, a certain creed. I mean, the Declaration, right? The things that are in there. Not some ethno-national affinity, but the creed is what makes America America. Of course, we came out of a specific place and, and, and have a specific story and heritage and a s- certain land mass, obviously, but that's not what

33. 51:47 – 54:25

    What makes America… America

    1. PBPete Buttigieg51:47

       makes America America.

    2. TNTrevor Noah51:48

       Right.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg51:48

       What makes America America is our fidelity to this national experiment in democracy-

    4. TNTrevor Noah51:54

       Right

    5. PBPete Buttigieg51:54

       ... that we've been running for 249 years.

    6. TNTrevor Noah51:57

       Right.

    7. PBPete Buttigieg51:58

       And it follows from that, that, that all of us, just in as much as we are Americans, have some responsibility toward that in a way that I think is just different than the way you would say somebody in any other c- or other countries I can think of-

    8. TNTrevor Noah52:11

       Yeah

    9. PBPete Buttigieg52:11

       ... you know, uh, relate to their country. Um, and so I, I, I just think it, it's too easy of an out to say, "Ah, what can we do?" Um, we're in charge. Like, we the people, collectively-

    10. TNTrevor Noah52:24

        Mm

    11. PBPete Buttigieg52:24

        ... are in charge.

    12. TNTrevor Noah52:25

        What threat does the strongman pose to those ideals? Like, it almost feels like everywhere we have spoken about a strongman, people have voted for an Andrew Tate to be a president.

    13. PBPete Buttigieg52:34

        Yeah. It's bad. And I think the threat is all of these commitments, all of these freedoms that we care about-

    14. TNTrevor Noah52:43

        Mm

    15. PBPete Buttigieg52:44

        ... by the time everybody wakes up and sees that they're gone, it's too late. And this happens. I mean, when strongmen come to power in elections, when they don't just emerge as figures but then actually win an election-

    16. TNTrevor Noah52:54

        Yeah

    17. PBPete Buttigieg52:55

        ... very hard to get them out.

    18. TNTrevor Noah52:57

        Yeah.

    19. PBPete Buttigieg52:58

        I mean, history has shown that again and again and again. And so I think the challenge, especially for an opposition, is to do two things at once. We have to talk about those freedoms and that democratic commitment itself-

    20. TNTrevor Noah53:11

        Yeah

    21. PBPete Buttigieg53:12

        ... and talk about the things that are a little more immediate in people's lives, because the other thing we have learned, definitely, the hard way over the last 100 years, is that these authoritarian systems are systematically worse at taking care of your needs. At the end of the day, they will not help you be able to afford, uh, to, to buy a home. They will not help you-

    22. TNTrevor Noah53:29

        Mm

    23. PBPete Buttigieg53:30

        ... get healthcare. They will not deliver these things as well, uh, because they don't have to be responsive to you.

    24. TNTrevor Noah53:36

        They don't have to be responsive to you.

    25. PBPete Buttigieg53:38

        Yeah.

    26. TNTrevor Noah53:38

        But I think that misses the point of what they're trying to do, actually.

    27. PBPete Buttigieg53:41

        Right. How do you mean?

    28. TNTrevor Noah53:43

        I hear what you're saying, but the more I talk to people, the more I realize that some of the allure of the strongman, some of the allure of the populist, is not the fact that people actually think they're gonna fix it. Some people enjoy the fact that they're gonna break it for everyone.

    29. PBPete Buttigieg53:57

        Hmm.

    30. TNTrevor Noah53:58

        Do you get what I'm saying?
34. 54:25 – 57:20

    The appeal of breaking everything

    1. TNTrevor Noah54:25

       had jobs. I was in that city that had this. I was ... And I don't have it. No one cares about me. No one looks at me. The news only pops up-

    2. PBPete Buttigieg54:32

       Yeah

    3. TNTrevor Noah54:32

       ... when it's the next election and they're gonna ask my opinion. But no one's here for me."

    4. PBPete Buttigieg54:36

       Hmm.

    5. TNTrevor Noah54:36

       "But now there's somebody who's gonna break all of it." And they go, "Look, I'm already living in the trash."

    6. PBPete Buttigieg54:42

       Yeah.

    7. TNTrevor Noah54:42

       "You're gonna join me."

    8. PBPete Buttigieg54:43

       Hmm.

    9. TNTrevor Noah54:44

       And I think that's sometimes what we forget. We, we always think of as a, as a logical push. We go like-

    10. PBPete Buttigieg54:49

        Hmm

    11. TNTrevor Noah54:49

        ... "This person's not gonna help." Then they're like, "Yeah, I'm already homeless."

    12. PBPete Buttigieg54:52

        Hmm.

    13. TNTrevor Noah54:52

        "I already don't have healthcare."

    14. PBPete Buttigieg54:54

        Hmm.

    15. TNTrevor Noah54:54

        "I already don't have a job. My wages are already not keeping up, so I would like them to break it so that we're all on the same page." And I, I actually wonder if- That's something you look at. You know, when you talk about the Democrats now, there's a feeling that I hope you're aware of where a lot of people, and this isn't unique to, to the United States. When I was in the UK and I was talking to people who voted for the new government, now they go, "I mean, they're, they're useless."

    16. PBPete Buttigieg55:19

        Yeah.

    17. TNTrevor Noah55:19

        That's what they go. They go, "We voted for this, this guy, and here's Keir Starmer and here's this, but they're useless."

    18. PBPete Buttigieg55:24

        Hm.

    19. TNTrevor Noah55:24

        And the main thing that people say when, when I listen to them in different parts of the world, is they go, "It feels like liberals are selling an agenda that is beautiful on paper, but they're feckless when they get into power."

    20. PBPete Buttigieg55:39

        Hm.

    21. TNTrevor Noah55:39

        They'll tell you about healthcare, they'll tell you about education, they'll tell you about jobs, but when they get in, they tell you about like, "Oh, you, you can't just do that overnight, and it's so hard and it's this and..."

    22. PBPete Buttigieg55:47

        Yeah.

    23. TNTrevor Noah55:47

        And then they'll also tell you things like in America, for instance, "We gotta get the Republicans on board. We've gotta get them on board."

    24. PBPete Buttigieg55:53

        Mm-hmm.

    25. TNTrevor Noah55:53

        Obama, "No, no, no. I don't wanna do it myself. I gotta, I gotta wait for Mitch. Uh, Mitch has gotta come on board, you know, gotta get this thing." And it's like, well, why are you waiting?

    26. PBPete Buttigieg56:00

        Hm.

    27. TNTrevor Noah56:01

        Then when Donald Trump comes in-

    28. PBPete Buttigieg56:02

        Mm-hmm

    29. TNTrevor Noah56:02

        ... Donald Trump goes, "I'm not waiting for anybody."

    30. PBPete Buttigieg56:04

        Yeah.
35. 57:20 – 59:04

    Do Democrats still do things?

    1. PBPete Buttigieg57:20

       give us enough political room to implement this agenda, here's what we're gonna deliver for you." And I think it's a good list, like the list of things we wanna deliver, like higher wages, more housing, paid family leave. This is something every country has except us.

    2. TNTrevor Noah57:37

       Wow. But let's po- let's pause on one, like a few, let's just pause on the housing one, for instance.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg57:42

       Mm-hmm.

    4. TNTrevor Noah57:42

       One of the criticisms that I think a lot of people correctly level at the Democrats is they go, "There are states where Democrats are ruling from top to bottom. Why do they have some of the worst housing crisis in America?"

    5. PBPete Buttigieg57:55

       Mm-hmm.

    6. TNTrevor Noah57:55

       Like, "Why do they have some of the highest house- homeless populations? Why do they..."

    7. PBPete Buttigieg57:58

       Mm-hmm.

    8. TNTrevor Noah57:58

       You know what I mean?

    9. PBPete Buttigieg57:59

       Yeah.

    10. TNTrevor Noah57:59

        So it's like, I think that's the thing that a lot of people-

    11. PBPete Buttigieg58:03

        Struggling

    12. TNTrevor Noah58:03

        ... butt up against-

    13. PBPete Buttigieg58:04

        Yeah

    14. TNTrevor Noah58:04

        ... is they go, "I..." No one is against housing.

    15. PBPete Buttigieg58:07

        No.

    16. TNTrevor Noah58:07

        No one will say, "I don't want housing for people." No one is against, but I think the question people will ask is they'll go, "Yes, beyond the promise, why does it seem like..." And again, this is why I'm-

    17. PBPete Buttigieg58:16

        Yeah

    18. TNTrevor Noah58:16

        ... I'm not in all the states.

    19. PBPete Buttigieg58:17

        Yeah.

    20. TNTrevor Noah58:18

        But some might ask you, they might go like, "But, but Pete Buttigieg, why does it seem like-

    21. PBPete Buttigieg58:23

        Yeah

    22. TNTrevor Noah58:23

        ... the Democrats aren't able to do this thing in the state where they're running all of the-

    23. PBPete Buttigieg58:27

        Already

    24. TNTrevor Noah58:27

        ... all the levers?"

    25. PBPete Buttigieg58:28

        Yeah.

    26. TNTrevor Noah58:28

        "Why can't they get housing going? Why can't they get better schools going? Why, like-"

    27. PBPete Buttigieg58:31

        Yeah.

    28. TNTrevor Noah58:32

        "What, what's your response to them in that situation?"

    29. PBPete Buttigieg58:33

        There's so many, there's so many different answers that are all true and that are important. One is that, yes, like sometimes we just get in our own way. I mean, I saw that with a kind of a, it's kind of a proceduralism, a kind of a fetish for, for process.

    30. TNTrevor Noah58:45

        Yeah.
36. 59:04 – 1:04:05

    Bureaucracy vs. boldness: why things don’t get built

    1. TNTrevor Noah59:04

       Okay.

    2. PBPete Buttigieg59:04

       And there's, so there's so many checks that by the end, it's taken so many years that it's doubled in cost, and you can't get it done.

    3. TNTrevor Noah59:09

       Hm.

    4. PBPete Buttigieg59:09

       Now, sometimes we were able to get through that. Other times it was really tough. So that's real. Um, but another way to answer the question is to point to the places where we are getting results or did get results, either locally or nationally. And I think because we are doing a healthy process of questioning some of our own policies and, and, and, um, habits, sometimes missing the fact that we also need to vigorously defend the things that we got right, and that's true at the local level where you have, um, Denver, where there's Mayor Mike Johnson, who has gotten extraordinary results on housing-

    5. TNTrevor Noah59:41

       Yeah

    6. PBPete Buttigieg59:42

       ... in a way that mixes compassion for people experiencing homelessness with the need to make sure that it is safe and clean on the streets.

    7. TNTrevor Noah59:48

       Mm-hmm.

    8. PBPete Buttigieg59:49

       And expanding just the affordability and access to housing. Or-

    9. TNTrevor Noah59:53

       DC had a great-

    10. PBPete Buttigieg59:54

        Um, I think real progress

    11. TNTrevor Noah59:55

        ... like more houses per capita than Texas was building

    12. PBPete Buttigieg59:57

        Um, or on something like safety, you know, a place like Boston-

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:00:02

        Yeah

    14. PBPete Buttigieg1:00:02

        ... where they got the low... One of the reasons it didn't work when Republicans tried to bring in Michelle Wu to a committee and kind of beat her up on public safety was the lowest murder rate in 75 years. So she can explain, like, "Here's how we got that done." But there's also a, a third set of answers that's also true that has to do with all the ways that, uh, when Democrats came to power, they were still stopped by Republicans, right? And the question is, is the answer to that that you just blow through the way Trump is? Well, the, the truth is, no Democrat in my lifetime has amassed that kind of power. Um, and-

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:00:37

        What do you mean, what do you mean by that?

    16. PBPete Buttigieg1:00:39

        Well, first of all, the total power over government, right? Because the courts and the Congress are unwilling to constrain him even when they know he's doing something wrong.

    17. TNTrevor Noah1:00:48

        Okay. Got it.

    18. PBPete Buttigieg1:00:49

        Right?

    19. TNTrevor Noah1:00:50

        So, so you're-

    20. PBPete Buttigieg1:00:51

        And that didn't just randomly happen

    21. TNTrevor Noah1:00:52

        ... you're basically saying like Trump has everyone in line really.

    22. PBPete Buttigieg1:00:54

        Totally.

    23. TNTrevor Noah1:00:54

        Not, not just amassing the power, but he has, he has the power in line with him.

    24. PBPete Buttigieg1:00:57

        Absolutely.

    25. TNTrevor Noah1:00:58

        Yeah.

    26. PBPete Buttigieg1:00:58

        Right. The problem is you say that, and then it starts to sound attractive to some people. Like, great, all we need is to do that on our side. We just need to have somebody, uh, some Democrat who's willing to break all the laws and have total control over, you know, all government-

    27. TNTrevor Noah1:01:08

        Yeah

    28. PBPete Buttigieg1:01:08

        ... and then we'll do our stuff, and that's not the right answer. Because sometimes the rule of law is part of what we're trying to protect [chuckles] itself, in addition to the things that it, that it might shape or stop. But look, the appeal of the strongman is always, I'm gonna get results. I mean, Mussolini's, you know-

    29. TNTrevor Noah1:01:23

        Yeah

    30. PBPete Buttigieg1:01:23

        ... I'm gonna make the trains run on time. Which by the way, importantly, he didn't Uh, he did not succeed in making the trains run on time, but he built that reputation.
37. 1:04:05 – 1:04:44

    First-world budget, third-world problems

    1. PBPete Buttigieg1:04:05

       not all of it, and the word is inequality.

    2. TNTrevor Noah1:04:08

       Hmm.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg1:04:08

       So there's so much research that shows even if you take two countries that have the same average GDP.

    4. TNTrevor Noah1:04:15

       Yeah.

    5. PBPete Buttigieg1:04:16

       The same general level of development. The one that has a higher level of inequality will have more, will have worse outcomes-

    6. TNTrevor Noah1:04:24

       Yeah

    7. PBPete Buttigieg1:04:24

       ... on everything from violence to public health, even on average.

    8. TNTrevor Noah1:04:27

       Hmm.

    9. PBPete Buttigieg1:04:28

       And you mentioned Robert Putnam, uh, famously wrote Bowling Alone. Uh, he wrote another book, co-wrote another book that's less famous called The Upswing, which basically the whole book is written around, uh, a chart that is the, the level

38. 1:04:44 – 1:06:19

    Inequality: the root of almost everything

    1. PBPete Buttigieg1:04:44

       of inequality in this country. And you can see all of these, they kind of, if you start the clock in the '40s or even in the '60s, you see a comparatively more equal society, and then you see it go more and more unequal-

    2. TNTrevor Noah1:04:58

       Hmm

    3. PBPete Buttigieg1:04:58

       ... until you have this explosion of inequality that we're living with now. And you can correlate all these other developing world problems that we seem to have here around social instability-

    4. TNTrevor Noah1:05:08

       Yeah

    5. PBPete Buttigieg1:05:09

       ... and violence and health. All of them get worse pretty much on the same trajectory-

    6. TNTrevor Noah1:05:15

       Mm-hmm

    7. PBPete Buttigieg1:05:15

       ... as the inequality gets worse.

    8. TNTrevor Noah1:05:16

       Right.

    9. PBPete Buttigieg1:05:18

       And then, of course, it becomes self-reinforcing because y- the more you have the, that economic inequality, the more you start to have inequality in power.

    10. TNTrevor Noah1:05:24

        Yep.

    11. PBPete Buttigieg1:05:25

        And that can be used to reinforce the conditions that lead to the economic inequality.

    12. TNTrevor Noah1:05:29

        Mm-hmm.

    13. PBPete Buttigieg1:05:30

        And this is yet another reason why I think we're not paying enough attention to AI. Everybody's paying attention to AI as, as tech.

    14. TNTrevor Noah1:05:35

        Yeah.

    15. PBPete Buttigieg1:05:36

        But I think we need to pay more attention to AI as a question of political economy because it can do one of two things. It can either create so much wealth that there is enough to go around, and all of us could have a four-day workweek and more money in our pocket, and it could alleviate inequality.

    16. TNTrevor Noah1:05:54

        Right.

    17. PBPete Buttigieg1:05:55

        Both by finding the right way to share the, the dollars and cents wealth that it creates, and by taking the, the benefits of it in terms of, like, a level of tutoring that-

    18. TNTrevor Noah1:06:06

        Yeah

    19. PBPete Buttigieg1:06:07

        ... up until now has only been available to a wealthy kid.

    20. TNTrevor Noah1:06:09

        Yeah, yeah.

    21. PBPete Buttigieg1:06:09

        And now you just get it from a-

    22. TNTrevor Noah1:06:10

        That's, that's the dream, right?

    23. TNTrevor Noah1:06:10

        Yeah.

    24. TNTrevor Noah1:06:11

        That's the dream.

    25. TNTrevor Noah1:06:11

        That's it.

    26. PBPete Buttigieg1:06:11

        That's one way things could unfold. The other way things could unfold is it makes these inequalities

39. 1:06:19 – 1:07:40

    Will AI fix inequality or make it permanent?

    1. PBPete Buttigieg1:06:19

       of wealth and power even more extreme. It concentrates the wealth into the hands of the people who have the means, not just to start these tech companies, but to own the physical plant, you know, the computers and the, and the, and the land and the energy that goes into them.

    2. TNTrevor Noah1:06:32

       Yeah.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg1:06:33

       And they're making all the money. Uh, and, you know, more, uh, wealthy and established and powerful players have more control over the AI, and it unfolds that way. Like, one of those two things is gonna happen, and the decision over which of those two things happen, in my opinion, is mostly not a technology decision. It's a political decision.

    4. TNTrevor Noah1:06:52

       Yeah.

    5. PBPete Buttigieg1:06:53

       Set of policy decisions about what we do next.

    6. TNTrevor Noah1:06:56

       Yeah. It's, uh, it's similar to what they discussed a while ago in, it was either in Sweden or it was in Finland, one of the two, and they basically discussed taxing robots in a factory.

    7. PBPete Buttigieg1:07:10

       Hmm.

    8. TNTrevor Noah1:07:10

       And people at the time, you know, especially outside of those countries, were like, "That's crazy. How can you tax a robot? How can you..." And they went, "No, no, no, nothing is crazy here." Because remember, we have to go down to the fundamental principle of what tax is trying to do and how it's trying to do it.

    9. PBPete Buttigieg1:07:24

       Yes.

    10. TNTrevor Noah1:07:24

        Right? And when you start thinking of laws through that lens, you start to realize That every law is crazy until it's a law.

    11. PBPete Buttigieg1:07:31

        Yes.

    12. TNTrevor Noah1:07:32

        Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean?

    13. PBPete Buttigieg1:07:33

        It's a wild idea.

    14. TNTrevor Noah1:07:33

        Yeah.

    15. PBPete Buttigieg1:07:34

        Yeah.

    16. TNTrevor Noah1:07:34

        Like, even the idea of weekends wasn't a thing.

    17. PBPete Buttigieg1:07:36

        Mm-hmm. Mm.

    18. TNTrevor Noah1:07:37

        You used to work every single day of the week.

    19. PBPete Buttigieg1:07:38

        Mm-hmm.

    20. TNTrevor Noah1:07:38

        And then at some point, unions

40. 1:07:40 – 1:10:33

    The laws that sound crazy until they aren’t

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:07:40

       fought and were like, "Man, we gotta take days off." Now-

    2. PBPete Buttigieg1:07:42

       Yeah

    3. TNTrevor Noah1:07:42

       ... the idea that you wouldn't work, that you would work seven days a week is now the crazy idea.

    4. PBPete Buttigieg1:07:46

       Right.

    5. TNTrevor Noah1:07:46

       And so I think, I think that's, that's the question is, like, what are we able to do that seems crazy now?

    6. PBPete Buttigieg1:07:52

       Yes.

    7. TNTrevor Noah1:07:52

       That could define the new normal tomorrow. And that sort of makes me think of all the, the, the, the people running for office in some way, shape, or form who are Democrats, who are very progressive, and are doing really well, right?

    8. PBPete Buttigieg1:08:05

       Mm-hmm.

    9. TNTrevor Noah1:08:05

       New York City right now, Zohran Mamdani. Like, you can say what you want about the feasibility or not-

    10. PBPete Buttigieg1:08:13

        Mm-hmm

    11. TNTrevor Noah1:08:13

        ... of his plans and ideas, 'cause everyone can poke holes in everyone's-

    12. PBPete Buttigieg1:08:16

        Mm-hmm

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:08:16

        ... feasibilities, right? But the, the movement behind him.

    14. PBPete Buttigieg1:08:20

        Yeah.

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:08:21

        People on the ground, Black, white, young, old, you name it, saying, well, not rich. But everyone else going-

    16. PBPete Buttigieg1:08:28

        [laughs]

    17. TNTrevor Noah1:08:28

        ... "This guy?"

    18. PBPete Buttigieg1:08:29

        Yeah.

    19. TNTrevor Noah1:08:29

        "I like what he's trying to do."

    20. PBPete Buttigieg1:08:31

        Yeah.

    21. TNTrevor Noah1:08:32

        And, and you see them mobilize behind him, you know? You, you see the Democratic Party having, having some of its lowest approval ratings in years, despite not being in power, which is rare in America.

    22. PBPete Buttigieg1:08:42

        Mm.

    23. TNTrevor Noah1:08:42

        But Bernie Sanders bringing out some of the biggest crowds he's ever brought out.

    24. PBPete Buttigieg1:08:46

        Mm-hmm.

    25. TNTrevor Noah1:08:46

        You know? And, and we, we, we talked to him about it on the podcast.

    26. PBPete Buttigieg1:08:48

        Mm.

    27. TNTrevor Noah1:08:48

        And I, I was wondering, like, from your perspective, as somebody who's been in an administration, has been very close to, like, the upper workings of the, of the Democratic Party, is there an internal reckoning with where the establishment Democrats sits?

    28. PBPete Buttigieg1:09:03

        Yeah.

    29. TNTrevor Noah1:09:04

        And where it seems like the voters of the Democrats sit, because it seems like there's a big disconnect there.

    30. PBPete Buttigieg1:09:08

        Mm-hmm.
41. 1:10:33 – 1:12:37

    Why the left needs a strategy room

    1. PBPete Buttigieg1:10:33

       ideas. And I s- the best leaders I see in the party, many of whom are on the left, but many of whom are, are more moderate. It's not about, it's not only about how left you are.

    2. TNTrevor Noah1:10:40

       Yeah.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg1:10:41

       Yeah. But they have a level of imagination about what needs to happen that gets back to the first principles. See, the, the left likes to think that we're the intellectual ones, but I actually believe the right, over the last, like, 50 years, has been much more systematic-

    4. TNTrevor Noah1:10:59

       Definitely

    5. PBPete Buttigieg1:11:00

       ... about connecting, like, big ideas, bold ideas, sometimes crazy ideas, through this process that gets them into the mainstream, finds politicians willing to, to, uh, give 'em a try. Pushes, pushes the Overton Window-

    6. TNTrevor Noah1:11:12

       Yeah

    7. PBPete Buttigieg1:11:12

       ... pushes the political system, until eventually that happens, and that's why they're able to sometimes ... I mean, demolishing the right to choose in this country, that was a 50-year project-

    8. TNTrevor Noah1:11:22

       Yeah

    9. PBPete Buttigieg1:11:22

       ... on their part, right? The stuff in Project 2025, it wasn't just a laundry list of crazy policy proposals. It was the result of a whole kind of apparatus doing very big, deep thinking-

    10. TNTrevor Noah1:11:34

        Yeah

    11. PBPete Buttigieg1:11:34

        ... most of which, of course, I, I think is horribly wrong. But they were really thinking about these things in a very basic way.

    12. TNTrevor Noah1:11:40

        It feels like they have a room.

    13. PBPete Buttigieg1:11:41

        Yeah.

    14. TNTrevor Noah1:11:41

        And then the Democrats don't.

    15. PBPete Buttigieg1:11:43

        Yeah, I mean, I think they are more-

    16. TNTrevor Noah1:11:44

        Like, in a weird way, you just said-

    17. PBPete Buttigieg1:11:45

        Yeah

    18. TNTrevor Noah1:11:45

        ... there's not one room where all the Democrats meet in-

    19. PBPete Buttigieg1:11:47

        Yeah

    20. TNTrevor Noah1:11:47

        ... but it seems like the Republicans were like, "Hey, let's meet in a room-

    21. PBPete Buttigieg1:11:49

        Mm-hmm

    22. TNTrevor Noah1:11:49

        ... and have, like, this collective idea that moves us." But, uh, but, but, but before we, we move on from that, give me an idea of, like, what you agree with on Zohran and what you don't agree with. I'd love to know, 'cause you were a mayor.

    23. PBPete Buttigieg1:11:58

        Yeah.

    24. TNTrevor Noah1:11:58

        You know?

    25. PBPete Buttigieg1:11:58

        Right.

    26. TNTrevor Noah1:11:58

        So you actually ran a city. So, like, give me something where you go like, "Oh, I agree with that."

    27. PBPete Buttigieg1:12:02

        Yeah, so I think, uh, I, I mean, first of all, just the, the focus on affordability.

    28. TNTrevor Noah1:12:06

        Yeah.

    29. PBPete Buttigieg1:12:06

        Like, we have to prioritize that and make sure that, that you can afford to live in this city. Makes a ton of sense. I think the stuff he's talked about, uh, getting, uh, mental health resources out to crisis situations.

    30. TNTrevor Noah1:12:17

        Mm.
42. 1:12:37 – 1:17:05

    Government grocery stores and the limits of policy

    1. PBPete Buttigieg1:12:37

       things, I'm kind of skeptical of the, like, government grocery store concept. Um-

    2. TNTrevor Noah1:12:40

       What, what, so you see, this is what I'm intrigued with. What is it about that? I'd love to know.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg1:12:43

       Because there are sets of things that should be done by government. Um, and then there are things that I think should be done by the private sector.

    4. TNTrevor Noah1:12:52

       Okay.

    5. PBPete Buttigieg1:12:52

       And, uh, running a grocery store is a good example. I, I think the government needs to come in where there are these big collective action problems-

    6. TNTrevor Noah1:13:00

       Yeah

    7. PBPete Buttigieg1:13:00

       ... or founda- like, like basic research. Good example. So my favorite example of this is, is, is the iPhone, to talk about the deliver- the, the division of labor.

    8. TNTrevor Noah1:13:10

       Yeah.

    9. PBPete Buttigieg1:13:11

       You know, like, I don't think the federal government could ever, like, design and sell a smartphone that you and I would wanna buy.

    10. TNTrevor Noah1:13:20

        Mm.

    11. PBPete Buttigieg1:13:20

        Like, I think only a company could do that.

    12. TNTrevor Noah1:13:23

        Mm.

    13. PBPete Buttigieg1:13:23

        To drive that level of innovation and use the competitive pressures of capitalism to fashion a product, uh, in that way that eventually becomes affordable for people, that's just, that's what companies do well.

    14. TNTrevor Noah1:13:37

        Mm-hmm.

    15. PBPete Buttigieg1:13:38

        If the federal government hadn't literally invented the internet, which no company or even consortium of companies could have done, like, that took f- taxpayer-funded public research to do

    16. TNTrevor Noah1:13:50

        To create. Mm-hmm

    17. PBPete Buttigieg1:13:50

        ... if there's no internet, there's no smartphone. So w- the areas where I believe government le- needs to lean in more are areas where there's some, there's some reason to think that it, it will only work if government leans in.

    18. TNTrevor Noah1:14:06

        Mm-hmm.

    19. PBPete Buttigieg1:14:06

        I think that's true to a point in health insurance. Um, I'm not somebody who believes we should abolish any private health insurance, but I do think there needs to be a, a public opport- a public option, a public, we call it Medicare for all who want it

    20. TNTrevor Noah1:14:19

        Yeah

    21. PBPete Buttigieg1:14:19

        ... like, not Medicare whether you want it or not. But, like, especially if people are gonna keep changing jobs, like, you need benefits that, that aren't just dependent on your company that you work for, right? Um, but I'm not somebody who believes, like, every hospital and every health insurance system should be somebody who works for the government. Other situations, um, and this is why I was an aggressive regulator of airlines, I don't think we should have a government-run airline. Some countries do. I don't think that works. Um, but I also don't think the market for airlines is exactly, like, a healthy, normal, competitive market. Um, it's got huge barriers to entry. It's got, uh, all these things that help to explain why you only have a handful of airlines.

    22. TNTrevor Noah1:14:58

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    23. PBPete Buttigieg1:14:59

        So the answer to me was, okay, this should be done by private companies, but the government should very energetically lean in and regulate those companies so that they-

    24. TNTrevor Noah1:15:07

        Yeah

    25. PBPete Buttigieg1:15:07

        ... can't abuse their customers.

    26. TNTrevor Noah1:15:09

        Mm-hmm.

    27. PBPete Buttigieg1:15:09

        And my sense is that when it gets to groceries, which is a highly competitive and very, very low profit margin business-

    28. TNTrevor Noah1:15:20

        Yeah

    29. PBPete Buttigieg1:15:22

        ... you're not gonna find some, like, market inefficiency because, like, grocers are, uh, have these, like, monopoly ri- especially in the city context.

    30. TNTrevor Noah1:15:30

        Yeah.
43. 1:17:05 – 1:22:18

    Should governments act like companies?

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:17:05

       you know, you're trying to make as much money as possible. You're trying to get the profits that you can. The argument is at some point it gets down to zero, and I mean, you, like, really, you're a brain in this world. I've, uh, you know, I've seen your, your resume and everything you've studied. But it feels like corporations and the way they exist is sort of at odds with the public good. So let's go back to the iPhone.

    2. PBPete Buttigieg1:17:27

       Mm-hmm.

    3. TNTrevor Noah1:17:27

       Right? I don't believe that a government couldn't make an iPhone. I actually don't believe that.

    4. PBPete Buttigieg1:17:32

       Mm.

    5. TNTrevor Noah1:17:32

       I think governments and the way we see them now-

    6. PBPete Buttigieg1:17:34

       Mm

    7. TNTrevor Noah1:17:34

       ... could not make an iPhone-

    8. PBPete Buttigieg1:17:36

       Mm

    9. TNTrevor Noah1:17:36

       ... because to your point and what we said earlier, they've become bloated.

    10. PBPete Buttigieg1:17:39

        Mm.

    11. TNTrevor Noah1:17:39

        They've become slow. They've become corrupt, et cetera. But I don't think ... To me, I go, like, I don't think that means a government could not make an iPhone. I just think it means that the way some of the governments around the world operate now, they would not.

    12. PBPete Buttigieg1:17:51

        Shouldn't be able.

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:17:51

        Right?

    14. PBPete Buttigieg1:17:51

        Yeah.

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:17:52

        So here's an example. Let's look at Brazil right now. And this could change. That's why I say I'm not an expert, but this could change. Brazil right now on a government level-

    16. PBPete Buttigieg1:18:01

        Mm

    17. TNTrevor Noah1:18:02

        ... has rolled out a digital payment, um, system-

    18. PBPete Buttigieg1:18:06

        Mm

    19. TNTrevor Noah1:18:07

        ... that works in the country.

    20. PBPete Buttigieg1:18:08

        Mm.

    21. TNTrevor Noah1:18:08

        Right? And basically what they've done is they've made it so that everybody in the country can have a bank account just having a phone.

    22. PBPete Buttigieg1:18:14

        Mm.

    23. TNTrevor Noah1:18:14

        We've got similar products in, in South Africa- ... and in, in Southern Africa.

    24. PBPete Buttigieg1:18:18

        Yeah.

    25. TNTrevor Noah1:18:19

        Uh, M-PESA in Nigeria and those places. Ukuru.

    26. PBPete Buttigieg1:18:21

        Yeah.

    27. TNTrevor Noah1:18:22

        But this is not run by a company. It's the government. And what they did is they said, "We are going to be your bank-

    28. PBPete Buttigieg1:18:29

        Mm

    29. TNTrevor Noah1:18:30

        ... and your banker. We're gonna make sure that you have access to banking," which is one of the worst things you can do to persons, when they're not banked.

    30. PBPete Buttigieg1:18:36

        Mm-hmm.
44. 1:22:18 – 1:23:35

    How monopoly power breaks democracy

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:22:18

       what I'm talking about

    2. PBPete Buttigieg1:22:18

       ... the moment that they threat, they, they, they face some kind of competition.

    3. TNTrevor Noah1:22:21

       Okay. All right.

    4. PBPete Buttigieg1:22:22

       Right? But that's because there's that local monopoly.

    5. TNTrevor Noah1:22:24

       No, no, no. Then we are ... No, no, then I think we are closer, yeah.

    6. PBPete Buttigieg1:22:26

       So yeah, I'm not saying that, like, government can't do well in a tech context.

    7. TNTrevor Noah1:22:28

       Okay, okay, okay.

    8. PBPete Buttigieg1:22:28

       I'm, I'm just looking for the things that are more like networks or platforms or utilities or something where-

    9. TNTrevor Noah1:22:33

       Yeah

    10. PBPete Buttigieg1:22:33

        ... you really just cannot expect market forces to do much good.

    11. TNTrevor Noah1:22:37

        Right.

    12. PBPete Buttigieg1:22:37

        Versus the ones where you s- we have more experience with, like, competition driving prices down and, and-

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:22:42

        Yeah

    14. PBPete Buttigieg1:22:42

        ... you know, um.

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:22:43

        Like, I found it wild that during COVID, the government couldn't pay people in America into their bank accounts.

    16. PBPete Buttigieg1:22:49

        Hmm.

    17. TNTrevor Noah1:22:49

        That was, that was just wild to discover about America. I was like, "Wait, what?"

    18. PBPete Buttigieg1:22:52

        Yeah, and look, sometimes the answer to these things is also related to corporate power. So another thing that the Trump administration has killed is direct file. You know, the last administration was where it was kind of a pilot.

    19. TNTrevor Noah1:23:01

        Yes.

    20. PBPete Buttigieg1:23:02

        Some people had it, some people didn't, but it was growing, where you could just file your own taxes.

    21. TNTrevor Noah1:23:05

        Yes.

    22. PBPete Buttigieg1:23:05

        Seems like a pretty basic thing. Most people in most developed countries can do this. You go and file your taxes.

    23. TNTrevor Noah1:23:09

        Even in developing. South Africa, you can file your own taxes.

    24. PBPete Buttigieg1:23:12

        Yeah.

    25. TNTrevor Noah1:23:12

        Developing even.

    26. PBPete Buttigieg1:23:13

        And here you can't. Is that because we, the American people, couldn't figure out a way to make that possible? No. [laughs] It's because there are companies that make a lot of money as the middleman-

    27. TNTrevor Noah1:23:22

        Yeah

    28. PBPete Buttigieg1:23:22

        ... who figured out how to block getting that done, right?

    29. TNTrevor Noah1:23:25

        It's wild.

    30. PBPete Buttigieg1:23:25

        And they're, they're having their way in this administration. So yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm not gonna be the person to say that, like, innovation only happens if you let the private sector do anything it wants.
45. 1:23:35 – 1:24:35

    How corruption kills progress

    1. PBPete Buttigieg1:23:35

       I just, I think I draw the line on that balance a little bit differently.

    2. TNTrevor Noah1:23:37

       No, no, no, I understand what you're saying. I, I think you clarified it. Let's talk a little bit about, um, the world, the geopolitics. And as, as we wrap this up, I wanna, I wanna know where you see yourself moving in the future.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg1:23:48

       Mm-hmm.

    4. TNTrevor Noah1:23:48

       As, you know, Pete looks at the future of America, and America looks at itself in the world.

    5. PBPete Buttigieg1:23:52

       Mm-hmm.

    6. TNTrevor Noah1:23:53

       There's no denying that Donald Trump has completely upended how America sees the world and how the world sees America.

    7. PBPete Buttigieg1:24:00

       Yeah.

    8. TNTrevor Noah1:24:00

       You know? Allies are no longer, like, ally allies.

    9. PBPete Buttigieg1:24:03

       Yeah.

    10. TNTrevor Noah1:24:03

        You know? Countries like India are on, like, a blacklist.

    11. PBPete Buttigieg1:24:06

        Mm-hmm.

    12. TNTrevor Noah1:24:06

        Brazil's on a blacklist because they are prosecuting somebody who tried to stage a coup. Canada is always, you know, in an adversarial relationship or a moment with the ... It, it, it just feels like America isn't the, you know, that rock that it once proclaimed itself to be and w- I think how many countries saw it. When you look at the geopolitical landscape right now, what do you think

46. 1:24:35 – 1:27:00

    Can America rebuild global trust?

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:24:35

       the future of America is if this carries on for the next, like, four years? Like, if, if it just keeps going the way it's going, what do you think it does to America that Americans don't realize?

    2. PBPete Buttigieg1:24:47

       Mm-hmm.

    3. TNTrevor Noah1:24:47

       And what do you think it af- like, how, how do you think it affects the world in a way that the world hasn't yet thought of?

    4. PBPete Buttigieg1:24:53

       I mean, I think it's gonna take a lifetime to, even in a best case scenario, it will take a lifetime to es- establish some of the trust that has been blown up, uh, between other countries and this country by the Trump administration. And, and I also, I think we have to face the fact that the, the whole world system that we have all inherited has been showing its age for some time.

    5. TNTrevor Noah1:25:17

       Yeah.

    6. PBPete Buttigieg1:25:18

       Like, this emerged out of the, the power dynamics and the values that were most, uh, prominent or, or, or, um, had their greatest moment of privacy immedi- uh, primacy immediately after World War II.

    7. TNTrevor Noah1:25:31

       Mm-hmm.

    8. PBPete Buttigieg1:25:31

       Right?

    9. TNTrevor Noah1:25:32

       Mm-hmm.

    10. PBPete Buttigieg1:25:32

        And, like, the last of the people who experienced World War II as adults are, are passing out of, uh, uh, out of this world right now.

    11. TNTrevor Noah1:25:40

        Mm-hmm.

    12. PBPete Buttigieg1:25:40

        Like, we're just in a very ... Different

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:25:43

        World

    14. PBPete Buttigieg1:25:43

        ... world.

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:25:44

        Mm-hmm.

    16. PBPete Buttigieg1:25:45

        And so it's another example of a realm where I don't think we're saying, like, "Let's just try to get Trump out, come in, and stitch back together all of these systems and alliances and international institutions the way they used to work, and hope that'll get us through another 80 years."

    17. TNTrevor Noah1:26:01

        Yeah.

    18. PBPete Buttigieg1:26:02

        Um, [clears throat] I think the future is one where we reconnect with the importance of values-

    19. TNTrevor Noah1:26:10

        Yeah

    20. PBPete Buttigieg1:26:10

        ... as well as interests in American policy. And that's part of what I think is at stake for the rest of the world. So my view is leadership matters, leadership by people, but also leadership by countries. And somebody will be leading the way things unfold for the next five, 10, 20 years in the world. And I really want that not to be people like Putin or people like Xi Jinping.

    21. TNTrevor Noah1:26:35

        Mm.

    22. PBPete Buttigieg1:26:36

        I want that to develop on terms ... It's not that I want the world to look like and think like America, but I think there are the val- the American values that are most worth defending are most worth defending because they also express universal values, and I think it was the most credible thing about what we did do when we set up the institutions we did, like the UN, um, in, in that, that period.

47. 1:27:00 – 1:29:11

    “America First” vs. “America Alone”

    1. PBPete Buttigieg1:27:01

       Um, so what does it actually look like? I mean, we can't be ... We, we have this America First mantra, but it's really kind of like an America alone.

    2. TNTrevor Noah1:27:11

       Yeah.

    3. TNTrevor Noah1:27:12

       Hmm.

    4. PBPete Buttigieg1:27:12

       I would like to see a vision that's about America in first place, meaning America strives to compete and outdo every other country.

    5. TNTrevor Noah1:27:19

       Mm-hmm.

    6. PBPete Buttigieg1:27:19

       And c- Which means we care about what the other countries are doing, and when they're ahead of us on something, we try to learn from them, catch up, and get back in first place. Um, but it's not by having our ... It, it's not by stepping on people's faces as we go, because that really does amount to America alone, and in ways that we can't even guess sitting here in 2025.

    7. TNTrevor Noah1:27:41

       Yeah.

    8. PBPete Buttigieg1:27:41

       Like, that will make every American less safe, I think.

    9. TNTrevor Noah1:27:46

       Let's say you were president, and you're stepping into the White House. It's post-Trump. There's been another election.

    10. PBPete Buttigieg1:27:57

        Mm.

    11. TNTrevor Noah1:27:57

        Things have gone well. Let's say you're president, and, and you look at this world that lies out there. I won't ask you, like, sort of what you would do. I know there's policy and things change and whatever.

    12. PBPete Buttigieg1:28:07

        Mm-hmm.

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:28:07

        What I'm, what I'm ... What I found myself, myself most interested in is does America and do American leaders ever think about how to grapple with the world that they have created that they're now fou- fighting against?

    14. PBPete Buttigieg1:28:25

        Mm.

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:28:26

        And the reason I ask it is like this, like, Putin is a great example. You can't talk about Vladimir Putin without talking about how Putin becomes Putin, and you can't talk about how Putin becomes Putin without looking at how Russia the way we know it becomes Russia.

    16. PBPete Buttigieg1:28:40

        Mm-hmm.

    17. TNTrevor Noah1:28:40

        You can't talk about how Russia becomes Russia the way it does without talking about how America worked towards Russia. Now, I'm not excusing Putin in any way, shape, or form.

    18. PBPete Buttigieg1:28:49

        Yeah.

    19. TNTrevor Noah1:28:49

        But I'm going, man, when you look at the Cold War and how America played it, a lot of it was, like, bullying-

    20. PBPete Buttigieg1:28:55

        Mm

    21. TNTrevor Noah1:28:56

        ... in a way that didn't bring Russia along.

    22. PBPete Buttigieg1:28:57

        Mm.

    23. TNTrevor Noah1:28:58

        And then you look at, like, you know, the G20, and you look at all of these decisions that America made, and you're like, "Ooh, doesn't seem like America made a lot of the best decisions to bring Russia along," right?

    24. PBPete Buttigieg1:29:07

        Mm.

    25. TNTrevor Noah1:29:07

        'Cause America at the time was so paranoid about communism.

    26. PBPete Buttigieg1:29:10

        Yeah.

48. 1:29:11 – 1:33:15

    The price of inconsistent values

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:29:11

       It, it-

    2. PBPete Buttigieg1:29:11

       No question

    3. TNTrevor Noah1:29:12

       ... it cast aside all of its values.

    4. PBPete Buttigieg1:29:14

       Mm.

    5. TNTrevor Noah1:29:14

       You know, America was like, "We'll give anyone money anywhere in the world if they're gonna help us fight communism."

    6. PBPete Buttigieg1:29:19

       Sure.

    7. TNTrevor Noah1:29:20

       "We'll prop up dictators. We will overthrow leaders w- as long as it stops communism."

    8. PBPete Buttigieg1:29:25

       Yeah.

    9. TNTrevor Noah1:29:25

       And it's like, ah, well, if you're gonna give up your values when it suits you, then are they your values? And, and, and so, like, that's one example, you know? Um, another one I think of in the world is I go, you know, we, we talk about, like, issues now. I was thinking the other day, I was like, America doesn't have a particularly good track record of sort of, like, helping the, the movements that society would agree are the movements that are worth helping.

    10. PBPete Buttigieg1:29:50

        Yeah.

    11. TNTrevor Noah1:29:50

        Like, apartheid was a good example.

    12. PBPete Buttigieg1:29:51

        Mm.

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:29:52

        I'm not saying you were there, by the way. I'm not pointing at you like you did it. Um, [laughs] no, but, like, I was thinking the other day, I was like, America didn't do a good job during apartheid.

    14. PBPete Buttigieg1:30:00

        Yeah.

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:30:00

        Yeah.

    16. TNTrevor Noah1:30:00

        It's not like America was like, "We're gonna help you s-" No. When, when apartheid was fully in f- like, in full force-

    17. PBPete Buttigieg1:30:06

        Mm-hmm

    18. TNTrevor Noah1:30:07

        ... America was like, "Yep, seems pretty good to us." They welcomed South African leaders.

    19. PBPete Buttigieg1:30:11

        Mm.

    20. TNTrevor Noah1:30:12

        None of their visas were blocked.

    21. PBPete Buttigieg1:30:13

        Mm-hmm.

    22. TNTrevor Noah1:30:13

        None of them were restricted.

    23. TNTrevor Noah1:30:15

        No sanctions.

    24. TNTrevor Noah1:30:16

        No sanctions.

    25. PBPete Buttigieg1:30:16

        Mm.

    26. TNTrevor Noah1:30:16

        America was one of the last to even, like, entertain the idea of sanctions, right?

    27. PBPete Buttigieg1:30:21

        Mm.

    28. TNTrevor Noah1:30:21

        And then when apartheid ended, the Clinton administration, just so we're clear, this is not, like, a Trump or anything, the Clinton administration gave out thousands of visas-

    29. PBPete Buttigieg1:30:30

        Yeah

    30. TNTrevor Noah1:30:31

        ... to white South Africans.
49. 1:33:15 – 1:35:29

    Leading with values, not just power

    1. PBPete Buttigieg1:33:16

       I think that our belief in that, however imperfect, however we haven't always been true to it at home and abroad, is the most important fact about us. And so I think leadership in America has to do the, the work of trying to center us in that while we're being buffeted by all these other things. So there were a lot of folks who were queasy about various countries, uh, in, in the course of the Cold War that we supported.

    2. TNTrevor Noah1:33:44

       Hm.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg1:33:44

       But really believed it was still somehow the right thing to do for reasons of hard security. I think a lot of that was wrong, but, um, that balance, nobody can claim that that's ever gonna be easy. But what we no longer have is the excuse of not knowing how it can go wrong.

    4. TNTrevor Noah1:34:00

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's true.

    5. PBPete Buttigieg1:34:02

       So the next president, or just the next generation of American leadership, arrives with the benefit of a lot of hindsight. And I say this-

    6. TNTrevor Noah1:34:09

       Yeah

    7. PBPete Buttigieg1:34:09

       ... belonging to the generation that was really shaped by 9/11 and also by the Iraq War. I mean, that definitely shaped my understanding of politics.

    8. TNTrevor Noah1:34:18

       Yeah.

    9. PBPete Buttigieg1:34:18

       It also shaped my life 'cause I wound up serving in, in the Afghanistan War. Um, a- and honestly, that was another example, right, where for 9/11, it was the first time for a lot of people that a chain of events that happened somewhere else actually was visited upon us-

    10. TNTrevor Noah1:34:32

        Yeah

    11. PBPete Buttigieg1:34:32

        ... concretely, and shook everybody out of this idea that that was just, you know, that, that we weren't gonna be pulled into the consequences of what was happening abroad, some of which we had had a hand in-

    12. TNTrevor Noah1:34:44

        Right

    13. PBPete Buttigieg1:34:44

        ... getting to be the way it was.

    14. TNTrevor Noah1:34:45

        Yeah.

    15. PBPete Buttigieg1:34:45

        'Cause it's a world that we made. I would like to believe, if we get it right, if we have the right fidelity to the values that actually matter, we do this next time around, if people are still returning our calls, as a country, with more of a partnership, with more of an actual partnership with other states and peoples that are sincerely committed to those same values. And that around that we can build an architecture of values, but also of security-

    16. TNTrevor Noah1:35:12

        Yeah

    17. PBPete Buttigieg1:35:12

        ... that, that actually works. But that's r- gonna be really, really hard, and it's gonna be that much harder because the level of trust people have for America has been laid so low-

    18. TNTrevor Noah1:35:24

        Hm

    19. PBPete Buttigieg1:35:25

        ... by what people are seeing from both our conduct toward other countries and just

50. 1:35:29 – 1:40:33

    Rebuilding trust at home and abroad

    1. PBPete Buttigieg1:35:29

       the way things are going at home right now.

    2. TNTrevor Noah1:35:30

       Yeah, because when I w- let's say when I look at a situation like e- exactly what you're saying, looking at the relationship with others, other countries, their representatives and their people. Again, I don't know the inner workings.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg1:35:43

       Yeah.

    4. TNTrevor Noah1:35:43

       So I'm only saying what I've read and what I've seen. You have a delegation of host- of negotiators who are in Qatar, right? They're there to negotiate whatever it is, but they negotiate. Israel kills them, bam, and says, "Yeah, we killed them." This is not even like a I'm saying. They said, "No, we killed them."

    5. PBPete Buttigieg1:36:04

       Mm.

    6. TNTrevor Noah1:36:05

       I found myself going, just on a basic level, and maybe I'm a very stupid, simple person.

    7. PBPete Buttigieg1:36:09

       Mm-hmm.

    8. TNTrevor Noah1:36:09

       It's possible. I went, "If you kill negotiators, isn't that the opposite of wanting to negotiate?" Like, you know what I mean? That's-

    9. PBPete Buttigieg1:36:17

       Right

    10. TNTrevor Noah1:36:18

        ... like this is, that's kicking the guy in the pit in Sparta. It's like, yeah, that's the guy who's come to deliver the message, and you won't get peace without...

    11. PBPete Buttigieg1:36:26

        Yeah.

    12. TNTrevor Noah1:36:27

        And so I, I was thinking to myself, I was going like, "Okay, so if, if you, if you are in power, if you're a leader in, in that type of situation, at what point does an ally stop being an ally, or how do you define the allyship of another country?"

    13. PBPete Buttigieg1:36:39

        Mm-hmm.

    14. TNTrevor Noah1:36:40

        Is it when their interests are completely aligned with yours?

    15. PBPete Buttigieg1:36:43

        Mm.

    16. TNTrevor Noah1:36:44

        Or is it when their actions are completely unaligned with yours?

    17. PBPete Buttigieg1:36:47

        Mm.

    18. TNTrevor Noah1:36:47

        You know?

    19. PBPete Buttigieg1:36:47

        Yeah.

    20. TNTrevor Noah1:36:48

        Like, how far would Israel have to go-

    21. PBPete Buttigieg1:36:50

        Right

    22. TNTrevor Noah1:36:50

        ... for you as a president to say, "I can't say that you're our ally anymore"?

    23. PBPete Buttigieg1:36:53

        Hm. But I think what happens in, you know, that, uh, happened as we're taping, like I think that's, that's just hidden in the news.

    24. TNTrevor Noah1:37:00

        Yeah, no, please, love talking about that. Yeah.

    25. PBPete Buttigieg1:37:00

        So I don't know, uh, all of the, uh, we're still learning what happened in that strike, but, uh, everything you just said makes sense to me about what it means to blow up negotiators, and it feels like every few days or every day there's another example of this.

    26. TNTrevor Noah1:37:15

        Right.

    27. PBPete Buttigieg1:37:17

        So I think the job of leadership is to say, "Okay, if this is our ally," or whatever you wanna call it, we are the most important country to that country.

    28. TNTrevor Noah1:37:26

        Yes.

    29. PBPete Buttigieg1:37:26

        We are the most important country to Israel.

    30. TNTrevor Noah1:37:28

        Right.
51. 1:40:33 – 1:44:20

    The danger of defending oppression

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:40:33

       denying there was a huge swath of the voting population, Democratic voters, especially young people who said, "Yo, man, we don't want our country, we don't want to be aiming in this direction. This is not what we're aiming, this is not what we see America doing."

    2. PBPete Buttigieg1:40:47

       Mm-hmm.

    3. TNTrevor Noah1:40:47

       And it was interesting that the Democratic leadership didn't seem to come on board with that. It sa- it felt like that was the 70/30 split, but just within a Democratic party-

    4. PBPete Buttigieg1:40:55

       Yeah

    5. TNTrevor Noah1:40:55

       ... where they were like, "No, we're not on board with this completely." How do you maybe bridge the divide is the wrong, the wrong phrase, but how do you, how do you make sense of that disconnect?

    6. PBPete Buttigieg1:41:09

       Yeah.

    7. TNTrevor Noah1:41:09

       You know, where, d- is it because young voters or voters in the Democratic Party don't know as much as the people, the leaders do, or is it because you see the situation differently? And not y- I'm saying you the collective of you.

    8. PBPete Buttigieg1:41:21

       Yeah. Well, look, I think part of it is what, what was going on during the time that your understanding of these events was formed, right?

    9. TNTrevor Noah1:41:27

       Yeah.

    10. PBPete Buttigieg1:41:28

        So if you're our age or younger, definitely if you're the, the, the Gen Z people who are watching this, including by the way, many Jews, young Jews, who are, uh, watching this saying, "I want no part of-

    11. TNTrevor Noah1:41:40

        Yeah

    12. PBPete Buttigieg1:41:41

        ... of that," you have only experienced Israel as the dominant regional hegemon. Uh, and especially in the last two years where they have decapitated or neutered those entities that are most threatening to them right now.

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:41:59

        Mm-hmm.

    14. PBPete Buttigieg1:41:59

        Whether we're talking about Iran, whether we're talking about, uh, Hamas' military capabilities, whether we're talking about Hezbollah, right? So you see this extremely powerful country where there, I think, is a generation of Democratic leaders who only knew or largely knew Israel as the underdog.

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:42:18

        Mm.

    16. PBPete Buttigieg1:42:19

        Uh, where this wasn't just some, like, off-stage thing that was invoked as why, and by the way, Netanyahu skillfully does this, invoke these off-stage threats as something that legitimize anything, including things like starvation that absolutely nothing can legitimize. Um, but back then, that was a real, this was not, like, a theoretical thing. Now, I'd say even today it's not a theoretical thing, but it's obviously more off-stage because of the power that Israel has exerted to not only defend itself-

    17. TNTrevor Noah1:42:48

        Yeah

    18. PBPete Buttigieg1:42:49

        ... but to do things that I think most observers, including people who care about Israel's future, would say are not helping you defend yourself. It's not helping the hostages. And it's not only incredibly destructive of life when you have starvation or these, these bombings that, that we're seeing or so many of the other things that are going on. Uh, but it's also destructive of a moral fiber-

    19. TNTrevor Noah1:43:10

        Yeah

    20. PBPete Buttigieg1:43:11

        ... that has connected these two countries.

    21. TNTrevor Noah1:43:15

        Mm.

    22. PBPete Buttigieg1:43:15

        That really is as important as the strategic relationship, and that could be the most lethal thing of all.

    23. TNTrevor Noah1:43:22

        Right.

    24. PBPete Buttigieg1:43:23

        Because it turns the relationship into a partisan cause or something that there's a generational split, and, uh, and that is un- just catastrophically bad, I think. But to get to where your question began, I think the next round of American leadership will just be about what will it take to make things get better. That's, that's the thing. S- so many, and this is the ultimate example of it. But so many things, international relations and here at home, are freighted with layer upon layer that if I mention this, you say, "Okay, but what about that?" And if it's that, "Well, what about that?"

    25. TNTrevor Noah1:43:56

        Hmm. That's true.

    26. PBPete Buttigieg1:43:57

        All of which is true.

    27. TNTrevor Noah1:43:58

        Yeah.

    28. PBPete Buttigieg1:43:58

        And in this case, it goes back not just to 1947, it goes back thousands of years, right? And it's all true. And no one moment, no one generation, uh, least of all, like a, a, a child or a family living in Gaza, or for that matter, living in Israel, can or should have to bear the weight of all of those layers. All we can do is say, "Okay,

52. 1:44:20 – 1:46:45

    What the next generation of leadership must do

    1. PBPete Buttigieg1:44:20

       what can we do that would make it better?" And I think a new generation of American leadership will be willing to do things to shape the choices of an Israeli government in ways that neither an older generation of Democrats nor Republicans were willing to do. But across all of this, I still come back to the idea that, uh, the, the real challenge is to, to have fidelity to the values that, that even if we're not that good at living up to them-

    2. TNTrevor Noah1:44:46

       Yeah

    3. PBPete Buttigieg1:44:46

       ... much of the time, the values are still there, and they're still worth it, and our attachment to those is everything.

    4. TNTrevor Noah1:44:52

       So let me ask you this finally before we let you go. Um, I won't ask you if you're gonna run for president, 'cause I've learned in America, you'll always say no, or you'll give me, like, a vague answer.

    5. PBPete Buttigieg1:45:01

       [laughs]

    6. TNTrevor Noah1:45:01

       Not you. Politicians just do that here. They go like, "Well, I think right now I'm focused on, uh, w- w-"

    7. PBPete Buttigieg1:45:06

       Dropping my kids off at school.

    8. TNTrevor Noah1:45:07

       Yeah, and my life and, and I think what we need to look at right now is the midterms and building a world where we can... I know how this goes. I know how this goes. So I won't ask you that. What I would ask you instead is this: Pete Buttigieg, the mayor, Pete Buttigieg, the Secretary of Transportation, and then we meet Pete Buttigieg now. What do you think you've seen in the world, in America, and in your communities that has changed how or what you would run on if you were to run again? You know, so when you look at yourself back, I mean, now what, what has it been, 10 years, maybe more?

    9. PBPete Buttigieg1:45:47

       Hmm.

    10. TNTrevor Noah1:45:47

        And then you look at it now. Is, is there anything that's shifted you? Is there anything that's changed your perspective slightly, and, and what would that thing be, and, and how would it change the path that you would pursue? 'Cause we all change.

    11. PBPete Buttigieg1:45:58

        Yeah.

    12. TNTrevor Noah1:45:58

        Something changes us along the way.

    13. PBPete Buttigieg1:46:00

        Yeah, of course.

    14. TNTrevor Noah1:46:01

        I'd love to know, you know. Now you've been in an administration, for instance.

    15. PBPete Buttigieg1:46:03

        Yeah. Um, I mean, I could point to any number of, like, tactical or policy questions where I think about it differently, or I'm more attuned to why things are harder than they look, or, or I think we should just blow something up instead of trying to keep working with it in our bureaucracy or something like that, but, but I think the biggest thing that's changed is that things that we used to talk about as a matter of rhetoric are here now.

    16. TNTrevor Noah1:46:28

        Hmm.

    17. PBPete Buttigieg1:46:29

        And so it's not enough. You know, words like authoritarianism or fascism.

    18. TNTrevor Noah1:46:34

        Mm-hmm.

    19. PBPete Buttigieg1:46:35

        I think when I was first, definitely when I was first running for president, those words are out there as kind of the end of a conversation. Like, "Look at this stuff that's going

53. 1:46:45 – 1:48:50

    From rhetoric to reality: fascism in our time

    1. PBPete Buttigieg1:46:45

       on, like that could, I mean, that, that might be authoritarian."

    2. TNTrevor Noah1:46:48

       Hmm.

    3. PBPete Buttigieg1:46:49

       And then it started happening, and now we're in a moment where we have to be much more clear-eyed about what it means to deal with that. In other words, if, if we just say, "That's, that's authoritarian," or, "That's fascist," like we, you know, um, everybody's, like, paralyzed by that, where actually I think the project increasingly is to, like, find out who's really good at dealing with fascism and, and learn from them [laughs] on, on how to beat it.

    4. TNTrevor Noah1:47:13

       Hmm.

    5. PBPete Buttigieg1:47:13

       Right? And that's just, like, a different project than the one I thought I was part of even five years ago. Um, I think that the other thing I would say is I, I still thought as recently as five years ago that there was more we could do within the structures that we inherited, within the kind of policy frameworks that we inherited. And now I just think all of that's g- being blown wide open, either because you have whole departments being burned down, like the Department of Education, or because, like the financial picture, which is not as, like, sexy to talk about fiscal policy, but I think sooner or later will require us to completely redesign our tax code as a country. Which is not a bad thing, actually, because that, that could be a chance to have, uh, a, a, a system of taxation where we actually get more trust that our government is actually doing good things with the money that we pay into it. There's a sense of more fairness. Um, but I guess w- what I'm getting at more than saying, like, oh, I, I, you know, think this, like, border policy, you know, I disagree with what I used to think five years ago. It's more that, that I think the framework we're in needs to be replaced in a way that I think, you know, Trump has, has clearly, um, exposed, but I think Democrats need to come to terms with, and we're just into a new world in terms of what that means for what leaders need to do.

    6. TNTrevor Noah1:48:39

       [upbeat music] Well, as always, man, I enjoy having a conversation with you. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for being so candid.

    7. PBPete Buttigieg1:48:45

       Thank you.

    8. TNTrevor Noah1:48:45

       And, uh, yeah, man. Thanks for sharing your beard. I appreciate it.

54. 1:48:50 – 1:49:35

    A new world demands new frameworks

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:48:52

       Thank you very much, for real.

    2. PBPete Buttigieg1:48:53

       Thanks for having me.

    3. TNTrevor Noah1:48:55

       Thank you so much for watching the episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friend still. Let them suffer for a change. And don't forget to engage with us in the comments. Uh, if you wanna suggest a guest, maybe there's questions you want, maybe there's ideas that you have, you can chat to us. We will read through the comments, and we'll get into it. Either way, I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you for hanging out with us on What Now? And remember, we do this for you, so we would like to hear from you. Till next time. Thank you. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 1:49:30