Prime Minister Mia Mottley: Climate, Immigration, and the Power of Small Nations

1. 0:00 – 1:00

   Rihanna, Barbados, and the Art of Fairness

   1. TNTrevor Noah0:00

      [upbeat music] I've al- I've always noticed it, but I've, I've never, I've never thought to myself, it, it seems so obvious now, but I've never thought to myself, "Oh, yeah, you, you can't tell Rihanna's story without talking about Barbados."

   2. MMMia Mottley0:15

      Exactly.

   3. TNTrevor Noah0:15

      The music, the way she sees the world, the way she interacts with the world.

   4. MMMia Mottley0:19

      Yeah.

   5. TNTrevor Noah0:19

      The fact that she's still, you know, a citizen of Barbados.

   6. MMMia Mottley0:22

      Yeah.

   7. TNTrevor Noah0:22

      Like, all of these things-

   8. MMMia Mottley0:24

      Yeah

   9. TNTrevor Noah0:24

      ... inform how she goes.

   10. MMMia Mottley0:25

       And that she still has a Bajan accent.

   11. TNTrevor Noah0:28

       That's true.

   12. MMMia Mottley0:29

       Yeah.

   13. TNTrevor Noah0:30

       So if I said that phrase to her, she'd know what it means?

   14. MMMia Mottley0:32

       Of course. [laughs]

   15. TNTrevor Noah0:32

       So h- wait, how do I say it? You, you can't-

   16. MMMia Mottley0:34

       You still have a, a, a-

   17. TNTrevor Noah0:35

       No, the fair, the fair, how do you say the phrase?

   18. MMMia Mottley0:36

       Oh, damn fair.

   19. TNTrevor Noah0:38

       Damn fair.

   20. MMMia Mottley0:38

       Or you gotta treat people fairly.

   21. TNTrevor Noah0:39

       But you said damn fair.

   22. MMMia Mottley0:40

       Damn fair.

   23. TNTrevor Noah0:41

       Damn fair. I'm gonna, I'm gonna work on-

   24. MMMia Mottley0:43

       But you have a good Bajan accent already.

   25. TNTrevor Noah0:44

       I'm, I'm working with yours.

   26. MMMia Mottley0:46

       [laughs]

   27. TNTrevor Noah0:46

       Damn fair. I'm gonna learn it. I'm just gonna say it to people, "Damn fair," and I'm, I'm gonna get there.

   28. MMMia Mottley0:49

       [laughs]

   29. TNTrevor Noah0:50

       I'm gonna ... Rihanna, you didn't invite me to your party. Damn fair.

   30. MMMia Mottley0:52

       Exactly. [laughs]
2. 1:00 – 4:48

   Welcome to What Now? (And No, Rihanna Isn't Prime Minister)

   1. TNTrevor Noah1:00

      This is What Now? With Trevor Noah. Prime Minister Mia Mottley, welcome to the podcast.

   2. MMMia Mottley1:19

      Thank you very much, Trevor.

   3. TNTrevor Noah1:20

      I was thinking of every possible question I could ask you, because you, you're one of the most brilliant thinkers I know. You're also one of the-

   4. MMMia Mottley1:29

      Oh

   5. TNTrevor Noah1:29

      ... most original human beings I've ever met.

   6. MMMia Mottley1:31

      Thank you.

   7. TNTrevor Noah1:32

      And as I was going through everything I could think of, I went, there's one pressing question I've always wondered, and I've always wanted to ask you, and that is, does it ever bother you that most people think Rihanna's the prime minister-

   8. MMMia Mottley1:47

      [laughs]

   9. TNTrevor Noah1:48

      ... of your country?

   10. MMMia Mottley1:49

       I wish she was. [laughs]

   11. TNTrevor Noah1:51

       [laughs]

   12. MMMia Mottley1:51

       Then I'd be able to spend more time on the beach. [laughs]

   13. TNTrevor Noah1:55

       [laughs]

   14. MMMia Mottley1:55

       No, Rihanna is phenomenal. I mean, look, Rihanna has made Barbados known in places and with people that would not otherwise have known it. I mean, we like to think that everybody knows about Barbados. That's what happens when you come from a small nation.

   15. TNTrevor Noah2:09

       I know what it's like, yeah.

   16. MMMia Mottley2:10

       But the truth is that she really has extended the boundaries for us and, um, she has defined excellence and, and I wanna speak to it because people don't appreciate that I genuinely feel that she is the businesswoman and artist that she is because of how she was raised.

   17. TNTrevor Noah2:30

       Huh. Say more.

   18. MMMia Mottley2:31

       Barbados is a place-

   19. TNTrevor Noah2:32

       What do you mean by that?

   20. MMMia Mottley2:32

       Barbados is a place that social justice matters. If you go to a Bajan, the first thing they tell you, "Man, you can't unfair that, buddy. That ain't fair." Everything's about fairness, justice. And Rihanna, when she decided to go into business, said, "Look, I'm gonna do a makeup company, because guess what? Everybody's been doing makeup for certain colors-

   21. TNTrevor Noah2:57

       Mm-hmm

   22. MMMia Mottley2:57

       ... and certain hues.

   23. TNTrevor Noah2:57

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MMMia Mottley2:58

       I'm gonna do it for everybody, because everybody matters. Everybody must be seen." I keep talking about seeing, hearing, and feeling people. She did it. Then she wasn't satisfied with that. She said, "I'm gonna do a lingerie company." And then you look at the shows, and the lingerie is for every shape and size, those who are fit, those who have been maimed, those who are disfigured, for everybody. And that sense of inclusion, that sense of social justice that was instilled in her from birth, that was reinforced in her in school, is what she's living. So when people ask, "Why is she successful?" Because she's authentic, because she's real, because she's living out what really matters. And that sense of fairness and inclusion, the world buys into with her.

   25. TNTrevor Noah3:46

       I think that's beautiful.

   26. MMMia Mottley3:47

       Yeah, man.

   27. TNTrevor Noah3:48

       I've al- I've always noticed it, but I've, I've never, I've never thought to myself ... It, it seems so obvious now, but I've never thought to myself, "Oh, yeah, you, you can't tell Rihanna's story without talking about Barbados."

   28. MMMia Mottley3:58

       Exactly.

   29. TNTrevor Noah3:59

       The music, the way she sees the world, the way she interacts with the world.

   30. MMMia Mottley4:03

       Yeah.
3. 4:48 – 5:26

   ""We Is We"" - The Most Powerful Three Words

   1. MMMia Mottley4:48

      words.

   2. TNTrevor Noah4:48

      That's the most powerful ... Okay.

   3. MMMia Mottley4:49

      We is we.

   4. TNTrevor Noah4:50

      We is we.

   5. MMMia Mottley4:50

      Yeah.

   6. TNTrevor Noah4:50

      Damn fair.

   7. MMMia Mottley4:51

      Uh.

   8. TNTrevor Noah4:52

      I, I, I almost feel like that's, that's a perfect place to, to start a conversation because i- if we think of Rihanna as a, as a concept and as an idea-

   9. MMMia Mottley5:03

      Mm

   10. TNTrevor Noah5:03

       ... you have a single human who has had an outsized impact on the world.

   11. MMMia Mottley5:08

       Yeah.

   12. TNTrevor Noah5:08

       They came from a place that many would have considered insignificant.

   13. MMMia Mottley5:11

       Mm-hmm.

   14. TNTrevor Noah5:11

       They started in a place that many people would have considered, uh, unremarkable, and yet there's no denying that music, fashion, beauty has now been shaped by this person.

   15. MMMia Mottley5:21

       Absolutely.

   16. TNTrevor Noah5:23

       I feel like your journey and the journey of Barbados has been very similar.

4. 5:26 – 9:53

   Barbados's Complicated History

   1. MMMia Mottley5:26

      Mm-hmm. Truth is that the journey of Barbados before has been there for good and bad reasons, and let's start with the bad.

   2. TNTrevor Noah5:33

      Yeah.

   3. MMMia Mottley5:34

      Um, Barbados was settled, in fact, this is 400 years this year that the British first landed. But the history was written that they were the first, although we now know that people were probably there who came from, um, Europe. But the story that nobody told was the Amerindians who lived there for centuries, and who at the time when the British came, there was evidence of settlements and life, but nobody had been living on the island at the time.

   4. TNTrevor Noah6:01

      Huh.

   5. MMMia Mottley6:02

      I start there really to carry you to the fact that the modern story of Barbados then is shaped by the British conquest. And they started a parliament in 1639. It's the third oldest in the Commonwealth. Um, and they passed a law which really is something that we are not proud of at all, and it became the structure for modern racism and institutional racism as we know, and it was the bedrock for slavery. It was the 1661 Slave Code passed by the Barbados parliament. It was followed in Jamaica, it was followed in South Carolina, it was followed in Georgia, it was followed in Antigua. Almost all of the countries in the Americas used that 1661 Slave Code-

   6. TNTrevor Noah6:48

      Wow

   7. MMMia Mottley6:48

      ... which denied the humanity of Black people as the basis for their thing. The British treated Barbados as the jewel in the crown. It was a producer of sugar. Um, it was, for them, the earner of great wealth.

   8. TNTrevor Noah7:02

      Yeah, yeah.

   9. MMMia Mottley7:03

      And it was also the place by which they understood how to control and denigrate Black people, um, as slaves. So that we feel, as modern, independent Barbadians, that we have a duty to pay forward, and that duty to pay forward is as a result of that history. Now, there were other things that happened at the time because of how important the colony was to the British. So after King Charles took back over from Cromwell, ironically King Charles, he, He gave some of the planters in Barbados land in the Carolinas, and therefore there is a huge impact of Bajans and Bajan slaves moving into the Carolinas, and the linkages between Charleston and Speightstown in the north of Barbados go back, um, 370, 75 years.

   10. TNTrevor Noah7:55

       That's fascinating.

   11. MMMia Mottley7:56

       Yeah. And, and, and there is also a belief that we need to do more research with the Gullah people and to really see the linkages between the Carolinas and Barbados. Um, in addition, prior to that, when the Royalists, um, tried to fight against Cromwell-

   12. TNTrevor Noah8:15

       Yeah

   13. MMMia Mottley8:16

       ... they had the Charter of Barbados in 1651, which they say 125 years before independence, the Declaration of Independence in the USA-

   14. TNTrevor Noah8:26

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

   15. MMMia Mottley8:26

       ... really spoke to a lot of the same things in terms of no taxation without representation, and a lot of the same things that came to be discussed here. So that you see Barbados popping up in a supersized way throughout history.

   16. TNTrevor Noah8:39

       Throughout history.

   17. MMMia Mottley8:40

       And in a sense, therefore, I don't try to claim it for Rihanna or myself or others today as a country because it really has always had that tradition. Yesterday on my social media, a picture came up of the father of independence, Errol Barrow, and his wife meeting President Lyndon Johnson-

   18. TNTrevor Noah8:59

       Uh-huh

   19. MMMia Mottley8:59

       ... here in DC. And the story goes at that time that President Johnson said to this prime minister of a newly independent country, um, the Organization of American States, the US will pay your dues to join. And Mr. Barrow said, um, "Sir, with all due respect, where I come from, if you can't afford the dues, you don't join the club." I give you that story as well as in his first speech to the United Nations, he declared that we would be friends of all, satellites of none. So there's a strong sense of dignity, a strong sense of we have a responsibility to do things-

   20. TNTrevor Noah9:40

       Mm-hmm

   21. MMMia Mottley9:40

       ... and to, to give, um, especially because of what we went through, and that does not mean that we are more powerful than we are because at the end of the day, size still does matter.

5. 9:53 – 10:07

   Size Matters (But Not How You Think)

   1. MMMia Mottley9:53

      But on things of thought, leadership, and dignity count as.

   2. TNTrevor Noah9:59

      Because you, you, you ... I mean, when you talk about size, I think it is important to understand the size of Barbados.

   3. MMMia Mottley10:05

      [laughs]

   4. TNTrevor Noah10:05

      What, what's the current population?

6. 10:07 – 13:32

   When Good Family Planning Becomes Too Good

   1. TNTrevor Noah10:07

      It's three-

   2. MMMia Mottley10:08

      Probably about 270,000.

   3. TNTrevor Noah10:10

      Okay, yeah. That was-

   4. MMMia Mottley10:11

      Yeah

   5. TNTrevor Noah10:11

      ... 300,000 was what I thought.

   6. MMMia Mottley10:13

      Just under 300, yeah.

   7. TNTrevor Noah10:13

      Just under 300,000.

   8. MMMia Mottley10:15

      We actually ha- regrettably have declined, and we're right now going through a whole conversation about building back up the population.

   9. TNTrevor Noah10:21

      Is that because people have been leaving?

   10. MMMia Mottley10:24

       Part of it is that, but part of it is that we've done a damn good job at family planning. Family planning has been strong in the country from the 1950s.

   11. TNTrevor Noah10:30

       You know, this is, this is one of the things that, like, feels like one of the greatest conundrums that the world is facing.

   12. MMMia Mottley10:36

       Yeah, yeah.

   13. TNTrevor Noah10:36

       Right? Is ... I was actually, I was having a, a conversation with my mom about this.

   14. MMMia Mottley10:40

       Okay.

   15. TNTrevor Noah10:41

       So my mom was asking me, um, what I think about marriage, when I'm gonna get married.

   16. MMMia Mottley10:45

       Uh-huh. [laughs]

   17. TNTrevor Noah10:45

       You know, all, all of these questions. But not pressing, but pressing.

   18. MMMia Mottley10:48

       [laughs]

   19. TNTrevor Noah10:48

       And, and then-

   20. MMMia Mottley10:50

       As moms do.

   21. TNTrevor Noah10:51

       As moms do, yeah.

   22. MMMia Mottley10:51

       Yeah.

   23. TNTrevor Noah10:51

       As moms do. And then I, I said to her, "One of the things I've been pondering is how much of our, um, advancement has limited the natural progression-

   24. MMMia Mottley11:06

       Yeah

   25. TNTrevor Noah11:06

       ... of what it is to be human."

   26. MMMia Mottley11:08

       Yeah.

   27. TNTrevor Noah11:08

       Because now you have to, like, choose to make a family.

   28. MMMia Mottley11:11

       Yeah.

   29. TNTrevor Noah11:11

       Back in the day, f- you know, if we think about f- f- this is only in this, in this century.

   30. MMMia Mottley11:15

       Peop- people didn't think.
7. 13:32 – 15:04

   The Population Crisis Nobody's Talking About

   1. TNTrevor Noah13:32

      Do you think it's, it's because people are able to choose to have kids, or is it because people are choosing to have fewer kids as their standard of living goes up?

   2. MMMia Mottley13:40

      I think it's a combination of reasons.

   3. TNTrevor Noah13:41

      Yeah, how does it, how does it work?

   4. MMMia Mottley13:42

      I, I think it's a combination of reasons. I think some of it was immigration.

   5. TNTrevor Noah13:45

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MMMia Mottley13:46

      I think some of it is more people choosing not to have children or not having children for whatever reasons. Um-

   7. TNTrevor Noah13:51

      And then what do you say to them if it, if that's the, you know, as a, as a leader, 'cause n- now you have the predicament.

   8. MMMia Mottley13:57

      Yeah.

   9. TNTrevor Noah13:57

      And it's a confusing one. You need more people. Do you tell people to have people, or do you-

   10. MMMia Mottley14:01

       Well, I'd like them to, but the reality is that I still need people before they do it the pleasurable way. [laughs]

   11. TNTrevor Noah14:09

       [laughs]

   12. MMMia Mottley14:09

       So while, while they have pleasure in doing it, we're gonna need that. I still need skills now. And when you start to see the shortage of skills, then you begin to realize this is-

   13. TNTrevor Noah14:19

       Oh, wow

   14. MMMia Mottley14:19

       ... a real, real constraint on stability and growth.

   15. TNTrevor Noah14:27

       I would love for you to help us get an insight into thinking about the world like a leader should, versus how we think about the world as the passive participants-

   16. MMMia Mottley14:37

       Mm

   17. TNTrevor Noah14:37

       ... of what's happening.

   18. MMMia Mottley14:38

       Mm.

   19. TNTrevor Noah14:39

       What, what you just said, we often read about. Like, everyone reads about it.

   20. MMMia Mottley14:42

       Mm. Mm.

   21. TNTrevor Noah14:43

       They go, "Oh, I re- I was reading that there's not enough workers coming into this country."

   22. MMMia Mottley14:46

       Mm.

   23. TNTrevor Noah14:46

       "There's not enough people."

   24. MMMia Mottley14:47

       Mm.

   25. TNTrevor Noah14:47

       You know, Japan is experiencing a decline, Germany, et cetera, et cetera. When you're with world leaders or when you're working on these problems, is it, i- is there, is there a light that is shining in one direct-

   26. MMMia Mottley14:58

       Mm

   27. TNTrevor Noah14:58

       ... Is it immigration? Is it-

   28. MMMia Mottley15:00

       Yeah

   29. TNTrevor Noah15:00

       ... is it something that we're not thinking about? Like, where do, where are the possible solutions-

   30. MMMia Mottley15:03

       I, I-
8. 15:04 – 17:24

   Why We're Better at Moving Money Than People

   1. TNTrevor Noah15:04

      think of-

   2. MMMia Mottley15:04

      I fear that the conversation about immigration and migration is rooted in racism-

   3. TNTrevor Noah15:10

      Right

   4. MMMia Mottley15:10

      ... rather than rooted in the needs of a country. I think that people are fearful of becoming a minority-

   5. TNTrevor Noah15:17

      Yeah

   6. MMMia Mottley15:17

      ... in their own country, and that's natural. Uh, you can't think that. But at the same time, without the influx of people, you're not going to be able to stabilize or get the growth that you need as a country. And one of the problems is that in the world we have worked out how to move money. Nobody worries about how to move money globally. But as soon as you start talking about moving people, everybody gets nervous. And in 20, was it December 2018, I think, at the OACP, Organization of African, Caribbean, and Pacific states in Nairobi, I made the point, and I continue to make it, that we need a proper deal for migrants. And this notion of people having to drown just because-

   7. TNTrevor Noah16:04

      Mm

   8. MMMia Mottley16:04

      ... they want a better life when countries elsewhere actually need them and can provide opportunity and dignity to them, something is fundamentally wrong. And regrettably, that is one of the things I can say we are failing people.

   9. TNTrevor Noah16:19

      We definitely are.

   10. MMMia Mottley16:20

       Yes, sir. We are unfailing people, and we are seeing people die unnecessarily when we can have a structured program. And part of it comes back then to the sustainable development goals-

   11. TNTrevor Noah16:30

       Yeah

   12. MMMia Mottley16:30

       ... the SDGs, because most people don't want to leave their own countries. They leave because there's a reason.

   13. TNTrevor Noah16:37

       Because they have to.

   14. MMMia Mottley16:37

       They have to.

   15. TNTrevor Noah16:38

       Yes. Yeah.

   16. MMMia Mottley16:38

       They're either f- running from something or running-

   17. TNTrevor Noah16:41

       Running towards something

   18. MMMia Mottley16:42

       ... to something.

   19. TNTrevor Noah16:42

       Yeah.

   20. MMMia Mottley16:43

       And if we could get a basic agreement globally that there's certain things that we must provide people, basic education, which means from pre-primary to secondary. I mean, I'd love to say post-secondary and tertiary, but let's start-

   21. TNTrevor Noah16:58

       But just starting at the base level

   22. MMMia Mottley17:00

       ... let's get, let's get-

   23. TNTrevor Noah17:00

       Everyone in the world

   24. MMMia Mottley17:01

       ... must have a basic education-

   25. TNTrevor Noah17:03

       Yeah

   26. MMMia Mottley17:03

       ... that allows them to learn at any stage of their life again.

   27. TNTrevor Noah17:06

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   28. MMMia Mottley17:07

       That basic healthcare for the, the very basic things.

   29. TNTrevor Noah17:11

       Right.

   30. MMMia Mottley17:12

       Um, the opportunity to play football or cricket or whatever sport you like, or road tennis, which-
9. 17:24 – 22:48

   Road Tennis: The Olympic Sport You've Never Heard Of

   1. MMMia Mottley17:24

      play in this room.

   2. TNTrevor Noah17:25

      Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What's it called?

   3. MMMia Mottley17:26

      Road tennis.

   4. TNTrevor Noah17:27

      Road tennis.

   5. MMMia Mottley17:28

      Yeah.

   6. TNTrevor Noah17:29

      And what, what's ro- what is road tennis?

   7. MMMia Mottley17:30

      So the guys at home made these rackets out of plywood.

   8. TNTrevor Noah17:34

      Okay.

   9. MMMia Mottley17:35

      The net is effectively about, what, six, nine inches off the ground.

   10. TNTrevor Noah17:39

       So it's like knee height to approximately-

   11. MMMia Mottley17:41

       So if you're not fit, you can't play it. So even I got a little trouble sometimes. [laughs]

   12. TNTrevor Noah17:46

       [laughs]

   13. MMMia Mottley17:47

       And then a t- ball, and you can play it. It's like the size of a table tennis board, but it's played on the, on the road.

   14. TNTrevor Noah17:53

       On the road.

   15. MMMia Mottley17:54

       And that's it. So it's the most-

   16. TNTrevor Noah17:55

       I mean, this, this feels like a s-

   17. MMMia Mottley17:56

       ... perfect sport for inner city, um, areas and ghettos.

   18. TNTrevor Noah18:01

       Where there's no cars.

   19. MMMia Mottley18:03

       Yeah. Well, even when there's cars-

   20. TNTrevor Noah18:04

       I mean, probably in your neighborhood

   21. MMMia Mottley18:05

       ... no. No.

   22. TNTrevor Noah18:05

       Well, how are we playing road tennis?

   23. MMMia Mottley18:07

       So the, you stop, you pull up the c- the, the net.

   24. TNTrevor Noah18:10

       [laughs]

   25. MMMia Mottley18:10

       The car passes, and you move. Swear to God. [laughs] When you come to Barbados, you'll see

   26. TNTrevor Noah18:17

       Um, I'm actually gonna come and see.

   27. MMMia Mottley18:18

       Yeah, yeah.

   28. TNTrevor Noah18:18

       You know, so it's funny, in S- in South Africa, we used to ... I mean, most places in the world

   29. MMMia Mottley18:21

       Yeah

   30. TNTrevor Noah18:21

       ... I, you know, friends of mine who grew up in, like, Harlem, have the same stories-
10. 22:48 – 26:35

    The Browning of the World (And Why It Scares People)

    1. MMMia Mottley22:48

       that anybody can come and be whoever they want to be in this country. That was the seed of its greatness. And then let's look at biology. I didn't do much biology in school, but any instrument, any organism that closes in and that doesn't open up dies, atrophies. So I really, really feel that the problem that we're facing is the browning of the world.

    2. TNTrevor Noah23:11

       The Browning of the World.

    3. MMMia Mottley23:13

       Right. Ralph Gonsalves, who's Prime Minister of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, says it all the time, and he's absolutely correct. It's the browning of the world. So that, you see, when you let too many people come in, and people start to mix, in a sense, everybody's beginning to get the same color and the [laughs] same type of thing, and that frightens people.

    4. TNTrevor Noah23:32

       I-

    5. MMMia Mottley23:32

       Because love knows no boundaries, does it?

    6. TNTrevor Noah23:34

       That's true. That's true. Um, I mean, I'm sitting here.

    7. MMMia Mottley23:37

       Yeah.

    8. TNTrevor Noah23:38

       So, but I, I ... You know what I, I sometimes think it is? I think us seeing the browning of the world as one of the factors is, is completely correct, but I often wonder if this is not a natural byproduct of people experiencing a standard of living that declines over time, and then they start to point somewhere.

    9. MMMia Mottley24:01

       Yeah.

    10. TNTrevor Noah24:01

        Do you know? Because it, because, like, if you look at Europe itself, some of the biggest wars that have ever been fought-

    11. MMMia Mottley24:07

        Mm-hmm

    12. TNTrevor Noah24:07

        ... only involved white people.

    13. MMMia Mottley24:08

        Mm-hmm.

    14. TNTrevor Noah24:09

        You know, there was, they were just fighting with themselves about themselves. A- and, and so whenever I, I, I read these stories throughout history, I go, "Oh, wow, it, it doesn't matter." Brown is almost the easy thing for somebody to pick on now.

    15. MMMia Mottley24:22

        Mm-hmm.

    16. TNTrevor Noah24:22

        But when you get rid of that, someone will find something else, and somebody will find something else. And, and so I, I, I almost wonder-

    17. MMMia Mottley24:27

        I think it's a combination.

    18. TNTrevor Noah24:28

        Yeah?

    19. MMMia Mottley24:29

        Um, I think that there is definite Um, a definite contribution with respect to inequity.

    20. TNTrevor Noah24:35

        Yeah

    21. MMMia Mottley24:36

        And the fact that people who could have believed that this was the type of life that they could aspire to now realize that that is now beyond them. I mean, in this country you have it with the industrialization-

    22. TNTrevor Noah24:47

        Yeah, yeah

    23. MMMia Mottley24:47

        ... that left, and therefore, um, strong, credible, dignified jobs were all of a sudden taken from people, and those jobs sustained families. Um, but let us not forget as well that there is still regrettably, um, an eye for differences in the world.

    24. TNTrevor Noah25:07

        Oh, definitely, yeah.

    25. MMMia Mottley25:07

        And, and, and I think the combination of all of those things has helped to create that sense of almost despair, and the despair has led then to anger, and the anger has led to shutting out people and focusing in. But tell me when in history any civilization has conquered or survived by shutting in. And any living organiz- organism-

    26. TNTrevor Noah25:36

        Yeah

    27. MMMia Mottley25:36

        ... survives by shutting in. It doesn't work. And regrettably, we have to get worse before we get better, before we realize that it is a crisis and that the survival of all depends on the well-being and welfare of all, as happened in COVID.

    28. TNTrevor Noah25:52

        Yeah, that's the, tho- those are the only times when people start to think differently about-

    29. MMMia Mottley25:55

        Yep

    30. TNTrevor Noah25:55

        ... the world that they're in.
11. 26:35 – 31:35

    Which Countries Are Getting Immigration Right

    1. MMMia Mottley26:35

       Yeah. I think Ca- Cana- Canada has probably done a better job than most of the-

    2. TNTrevor Noah26:39

       And what, what do they do?

    3. MMMia Mottley26:40

       ... developed countries. I think that they found a way of recognizing that they need to bring in people, but at the same time, they treat them as Canadians. The US had it right before, too. I mean, for whatever reason, the US is in a schism as it relates to migration. And I'm not passing judgment on them. I'm just noticing that, you know, you do grow, and you do succeed if you create those opportunities.

    4. TNTrevor Noah27:05

       Yeah.

    5. MMMia Mottley27:05

       I think you are absolutely correct in also making the point that in those parts of the country where people were denied or didn't have the ability to move at the same level and to increase their quality of life-

    6. TNTrevor Noah27:17

       Yeah

    7. MMMia Mottley27:17

       ... at the same level, they then assume that it's because of a foreigner. It's because of an outsider. You're seeing it in France. You're seeing it in, um, other places. But remember when Angela Merkel brought in a million people-

    8. TNTrevor Noah27:29

       Right

    9. MMMia Mottley27:29

       ... from, um-

    10. TNTrevor Noah27:30

        It was Syria when it was-

    11. MMMia Mottley27:31

        Syria

    12. TNTrevor Noah27:31

        Yeah.

    13. MMMia Mottley27:32

        And it was like a shot of adrenaline because she understood that Germany was facing the worst possible future, a declining and aging population.

    14. TNTrevor Noah27:42

        Mm-hmm.

    15. MMMia Mottley27:42

        The irony is that's what we're facing in most Caribbean countries. The ECLAC, um, agency predicts that in Barbados, that one in every two people could be over the age of 65 by the year 2050.

    16. TNTrevor Noah27:58

        One in every two?

    17. MMMia Mottley27:58

        That's crazy.

    18. TNTrevor Noah27:59

        Oh, that's not a great ratio.

    19. MMMia Mottley28:01

        Exactly. And in the case of Jamaica and Trinidad, 39, 40%, somewhere around there. So this is a real issue that we have to solve now-

    20. TNTrevor Noah28:10

        Yeah

    21. MMMia Mottley28:10

        ... 'cause we're 25 years away from that point in time. Um, at the same time, the Caribbean is a microcosm of almost most of the largest civilizations of the world.

    22. TNTrevor Noah28:21

        It really is.

    23. MMMia Mottley28:22

        Not all, but most of them.

    24. TNTrevor Noah28:23

        Yeah.

    25. MMMia Mottley28:23

        So you have African, you have European, you have Asian in every sense, um, Indian, Chinese, um, you have Middle Eastern, uh, and you have the traditional Indians, most of whom were taken out. But in St. Vincent and in Belize, you still have the Garifuna. In Dominica, you have the Caribs. So you still have a few remaining. And I like to believe that the Caribbean, because of our history, has a story to tell to the rest of the world and an example to share with the rest of the world. We've not been perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but for the most part, we have been able to bring about development to our people in the post-colonial environment that sees people, that feels people, that hears people, that recognizes that, look, okay, we need to provide education, shelter, housing, et cetera.

    26. TNTrevor Noah29:18

        Yeah.

    27. MMMia Mottley29:18

        We haven't done it for all yet, but we're on that pathway. Not everybody's gotten on the train yet, but a lot have. And when you start to compare it to other countries and other regions in the world, you begin to see that. The difficulty has come in that in many instances, small states have had rules imposed on them that don't make any sense. I mean, for years, for the last 30 years, we've been arguing to the WTO that we need special and differential treatment as small states, and that my percentage share of global trade in goods is 0.000%. [laughs] And my percentage share of global trade and services is 0.001%. So we have no capacity to distort global trade. But if you treat me as if I am equal to a large nation, then you will kill me before I can even start. You destroy anything that I can do to keep my population alive in terms of manufacturing or in terms of whatever.

    28. TNTrevor Noah30:25

        Yeah.

    29. MMMia Mottley30:26

        So that there is the old Aristotelian principle, equality for equals and proportionality for un- unequals. And if we were simply to use that and to recognize that you can't have the same one-size-fits-all prescription, you can't do it in a family-

    30. TNTrevor Noah30:42

        Mm-hmm
12. 31:35 – 35:07

    One Size Fits All Is Killing Small Nations

    1. MMMia Mottley31:35

       the one-size-fits-all rule will not work, and that you have to be able to give a little elbow room. Not a lot, but a little elbow room for us to do the things that we need to do to keep our people alive, to keep our people prospering, to not cause our people to want to get into the things that you complain about globally in terms of migration or crime or-

    2. TNTrevor Noah31:56

       Yeah, yeah, yeah

    3. MMMia Mottley31:57

       ... all of the other things.

    4. TNTrevor Noah31:58

       Yeah, I've, I've always been, I've always been fascinated by, by the, like, sometimes what I think is very short-term thinking from some of the bigger nations.

    5. MMMia Mottley32:06

       Mm.

    6. TNTrevor Noah32:06

       In that they'll often think about mass migration, but they don't seem to wonder why people are leaving the place that they're in. I, I, I, the first part of me goes, like, maybe it's just an arrogance.

    7. MMMia Mottley32:17

       I'll give you an example.

    8. TNTrevor Noah32:18

       Yeah?

    9. MMMia Mottley32:20

       They do things that literally shoot themselves in the foot sometimes.

    10. TNTrevor Noah32:24

        In what, in what way?

    11. MMMia Mottley32:26

        In 2006 and '7, there was a big debate about the International Criminal Court and the fact that the ICC, that US heads of state and army, milit- military people did not want to be subject to prosecution.

    12. TNTrevor Noah32:45

        Right.

    13. MMMia Mottley32:46

        And they went around the world trying to get countries to agree that they should be exempted. And we in the Caribbean said, "Hey, we hear you, but, one, it don't make sense, because this is intended for all people."

    14. TNTrevor Noah33:00

        Yeah.

    15. MMMia Mottley33:00

        "But, two, even if it wasn't, this is the idea of the former Prime Minister of Trinidad and Tobago, A.N.R. Robinson. And as a matter of solidarity, as well as principle, we can't do it." They said, "Well, if you don't do it, we're gonna withdraw all military aid from your countries."

    16. TNTrevor Noah33:16

        Wow.

    17. MMMia Mottley33:17

        I said, "Okay, that's not a wise thing to do, but-

    18. TNTrevor Noah33:21

        I mean, that's also another-

    19. MMMia Mottley33:21

        ... we talked for a year-

    20. TNTrevor Noah33:22

        Yeah

    21. MMMia Mottley33:23

        ... 18 months, and eventually said, "We're gonna do it anyhow." What happens? Nature abhors a vacuum. China, who never had any relationship with any of the militaries [laughs] in the region really, then stepped in and developed a relationship and provided training and equipment and things thereafter. Does that make sense to a country that is so frightened for China?

    22. TNTrevor Noah33:46

        See, when you're saying that-

    23. MMMia Mottley33:47

        [laughs]

    24. TNTrevor Noah33:48

        ... I wish more people understood, especially Western nations, you know, quote, unquote. I wish they understood how many of the problems they're experiencing are created in a cycle.

    25. MMMia Mottley34:01

        Yeah.

    26. TNTrevor Noah34:02

        You know? So friends and I were talking the other day, you can't talk about 9/11 without talking about Osama bin Laden. You can't talk about it without talking about Al-Qaeda. You can't talk ... But then you can't talk about it without talking about the CIA, which you then can't talk about without talking about the US and what it was trying to do about communism.

    27. MMMia Mottley34:18

        Yeah.

    28. TNTrevor Noah34:18

        And now many of those people go, "Oh, we did the wrong thing," but-

    29. MMMia Mottley34:21

        Yeah

    30. TNTrevor Noah34:21

        ... the effects are felt so many years later. And, and what you're saying is the same. If you watch the news-
13. 35:07 – 39:20

    Middle Income Countries and the GDP Trap

    1. MMMia Mottley35:07

       globally

    2. TNTrevor Noah35:07

       ... to developing nations. Okay.

    3. MMMia Mottley35:08

       Exactly.

    4. TNTrevor Noah35:08

       Yeah.

    5. MMMia Mottley35:09

       But countries like my own have been said, "Oh, you're middle income, you don't need money from us." So we effectively don't get any aid from the USA or from Britain or whatever, other than a part of a regional study or a regional thing that is done. And that's one of the things that we've been arguing, and I'll come to that in a bit, because that's at the core of a lot of the development issues, that we are asked to be able to access capital from the official financial institution, international financial institutions, on the basis of historic GDP per capita.

    6. TNTrevor Noah35:45

       Mm-hmm.

    7. MMMia Mottley35:46

       Which really doesn't ... I tell people, that is like taking my blood pressure two years ago to determine if I'm gonna have a stroke today.

    8. TNTrevor Noah35:52

       [laughs]

    9. MMMia Mottley35:52

       It's completely irrelevant. You understand?

    10. TNTrevor Noah35:55

        That's a great analogy.

    11. MMMia Mottley35:57

        [laughs] So that what matters, because in 72 hours, a hurricane can hit me.

    12. TNTrevor Noah36:02

        Yeah.

    13. MMMia Mottley36:03

        And I can have wipe-out risk. Now, a hurricane can hit in Florida, you don't have wipe-out risk. A hurricane hits in The Bahamas or Dominica, it's gone.

    14. TNTrevor Noah36:14

        Yeah.

    15. MMMia Mottley36:14

        And instead of dealing with qualitative issues in education, you're now dealing with basic access to schools again. So we make the point that the North Atlantic countries, for whatever reason, had the Caribbean and a lot of the other small island developing states in the Pacific, et cetera, in a certain prism. This is how they view you. This is how they're gonna relate to you. And China and India and others come along and say, "Oh, these are some of your real development needs. Oh, you need a gymnasium."

    16. TNTrevor Noah36:46

        Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    17. MMMia Mottley36:46

        "Oh, you need help-

    18. TNTrevor Noah36:47

        You need a port

    19. MMMia Mottley36:47

        ... building a port."

    20. TNTrevor Noah36:48

        Yeah, you need a road.

    21. MMMia Mottley36:48

        "Or you need help in doing roads. Um, we're gonna lend you the money at 3%." Or 2% or 4%. Who else is lending you that money? Nobody. So I think that, remember what I said, we wanna be friends of all, satellites of none. So we're not looking to be anybody's pawn, but at the same time, we're not looking to be disadvantaged or unfared because you don't believe I should talk to my neighbor, um, when in truth in fact, the neighbor's done me nothing.

    22. TNTrevor Noah37:19

        Hmm.

    23. MMMia Mottley37:20

        And then secondly, when I look at your circumstances, you have greater exposure with your treasuries to them than I have. The Chinese hold 4% of my debt. [laughs]

    24. TNTrevor Noah37:30

        Hmm.

    25. MMMia Mottley37:31

        It can't do me, it can do me less than a hurricane can do me. There are others who hold a far greater percentage of my debt, and the Chinese hold far greater percentages of debt in the developed world-

    26. TNTrevor Noah37:41

        Right

    27. MMMia Mottley37:41

        ... in the G7 countries.

    28. TNTrevor Noah37:42

        It al- it almost feels like a contradiction then in some ways.

    29. MMMia Mottley37:45

        It is.

    30. TNTrevor Noah37:45

        It's almost like some of the larger countries are basically restricting smaller countries from engaging-
14. 39:20 – 42:18

    Phones, Kids, and the Most Powerful Weapon

    1. MMMia Mottley39:20

       maturity-

    2. TNTrevor Noah39:21

       Is not yet fully developed

    3. MMMia Mottley39:22

       ... is not yet fully developed.

    4. TNTrevor Noah39:23

       Yeah, yeah.

    5. MMMia Mottley39:23

       You're gonna tell them they can't smoke. Remember with children you were told you can't drink coffee when you're young-

    6. TNTrevor Noah39:27

       Yeah

    7. MMMia Mottley39:27

       ... it's not good for young children.

    8. TNTrevor Noah39:30

       Yeah.

    9. MMMia Mottley39:30

       But yet you give them this most powerful weapon.

    10. TNTrevor Noah39:33

        Yeah. It shapes them.

    11. MMMia Mottley39:35

        Now, and s-

    12. TNTrevor Noah39:35

        It molds them, it influences them, yeah.

    13. MMMia Mottley39:37

        And at the same time, I've been arguing that you need to expose our kids to risk, because what do children want? To play adults. They start at young, and they can get away with it. Then they go and take their mother's makeup and their mother's shoes-

    14. TNTrevor Noah39:50

        [laughs]

    15. MMMia Mottley39:50

        ... and whatever, and they're playing house. By the time they become teenagers, it gets a little more dangerous. They wanna smoke, they wanna ride a bike, they wanna have sex, they wanna do other things. You know, got us. And I'm saying to them, "We teach children how to cross the road as little kids safely. How do we prepare them to manage other risk as they get older?" And therefore, the educational transformation that we need is not to give people knowledge, because facts, for the most part, although you have to be discerning, are found there in technology. What we need are the values and attitudes, the skills, the commitment to excellence in whatever you do, and empathy, because you have to care about people. If not, then you're gonna be in trouble. And you have to do the best that you can do in everything that you do, however little, however small, however large. And you have to show them how they develop and mature, which is what we don't talk enough about, the social and emotional learning targets. What do you expect a child to say or do-

    16. TNTrevor Noah40:58

        Yeah

    17. MMMia Mottley40:59

        ... at 7, at 10, at 12, at 14, at 16? When the hormones start to get in the way, how do you deal with that? Recognizing that relationships with parents are not always the easiest during that period of time, so how do you create a pressure cooker type thing where the steam can be taken off and the child just doesn't explode into-

    18. TNTrevor Noah41:21

        Yeah, yeah, yeah

    19. MMMia Mottley41:21

        ... some kind of, you know, awful situation. So these are the things that matter. So I'm seeing more and more a world that is not allowing us to have the conversation sufficiently that we need to have. And regrettably, um, it means that at the level of international policy, where we're talking about an international diplomacy and power relationships, that some of the things that ought to make common sense are ignored, and then we only get to it when it becomes a crisis. You know? So there's so many things that we can do better. And l- let's take climate. Okay? They say that there's no climate crisis.

    20. TNTrevor Noah42:04

        Mm-hmm.

    21. MMMia Mottley42:04

        The reality is that whether we say it or not, the temperatures and the climate is not changing. There's a clear difference of opinion between

15. 42:18 – 46:39

    Finding Climate's Love Language (Hint: It's Methane)

    1. MMMia Mottley42:18

       those now who say there's no crisis and those who are frightened as hell that this is the greatest existential crisis that the planet will face.

    2. TNTrevor Noah42:25

       Yeah.

    3. MMMia Mottley42:27

       So how do you bridge this moment in time? You've got to find a common love language. What do I mean? Methane is 80 times more dangerous than carbon. We talk about carbon all the time. But carbon stays in the atmosphere for hundreds of years. Methane stays in the atmosphere for 12 to 15 years But it's 80 times more dangerous. Methane is generated from gas leaks and the flaring of gas. It's generated from how we raise our livestock-

    4. TNTrevor Noah43:09

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

    5. MMMia Mottley43:10

       ... and farm rice. It's generated from landfills. If we were simply to fix the pipes that are leaking and stop flaring the gas, because when you flare gas, you can't make money from it.

    6. TNTrevor Noah43:25

       Hmm.

    7. MMMia Mottley43:26

       If you were to capture the gas, and if you were to fix the leaks, what would happen to the oil and gas companies? They make more money. That's their love language. What would happen to the planet?

    8. TNTrevor Noah43:39

       We would stop-

    9. MMMia Mottley43:39

       It would stop the destruction of it. That's our love language. And the scientists actually tell me that if we get this right in the next 15 years, we can actually reverse the temperature by half a degree. So what does that also do for the oil and gas companies? Oil and gas companies are not the villains, the emissions are. So if they can invest at scale for decarbonizing technology, then they can continue to have a longer route to run. And the controlling of the methane gives them the time to do the research-

    10. TNTrevor Noah44:19

        To get to the decarbonization

    11. MMMia Mottley44:20

        ... and to do what President Trump did with the COVID vaccines. Remember the warp, warp, warp speed?

    12. TNTrevor Noah44:24

        Oh, Operation Warp Speed? Yeah, we've talked about them, yeah.

    13. MMMia Mottley44:26

        You need Operation Warp Speed for methane, and, and that's what, I mean, I'd love to tell President Trump that because he gets what he wants, and the world gets what it needs.

    14. TNTrevor Noah44:37

        How, how is this mis- I mean, you, you're saying this to me now. I-

    15. MMMia Mottley44:41

        I've said it a few times publicly because-

    16. TNTrevor Noah44:43

        Yeah, but it, it-

    17. MMMia Mottley44:43

        ... I think the world needs-

    18. TNTrevor Noah44:44

        ... it's logical. It's, what you're saying to me doesn't, I'm, I'm trying to think of it in my head, and I'm going, "I don't understand why this, the, I-"

    19. MMMia Mottley44:51

        It's, it's, it's, it's common sense.

    20. TNTrevor Noah44:53

        W- so what's falling where? Is it, is it companies that are trying to cut costs-

    21. MMMia Mottley44:56

        I- I've been trying

    22. TNTrevor Noah44:57

        ... or they're trying to-

    23. MMMia Mottley44:57

        I've been talking to President Macron. I've been talking to a-

    24. TNTrevor Noah44:59

        Yeah

    25. MMMia Mottley44:59

        ... number of other leaders, and I'm saying, "Look, we need to have a face-to-face meeting with the oil and gas CEOs," because I actually believe that there is a win-win for us all. They have, remember Sting's song, I Hope the Russians Love Their Children Too?

    26. TNTrevor Noah45:14

        Yeah, yeah.

    27. MMMia Mottley45:16

        Uh, I believe that the oil and gas companies love their grandchildren.

    28. TNTrevor Noah45:20

        Hmm.

    29. MMMia Mottley45:20

        [laughs] And unless they have a plan to live on Mars that they haven't shared with us yet, they gotta get this act right on Earth. I feel that if we can reach a legal agreement, just as we did with the Montreal Protocols to cover, um, the, I think it's called HFCs. I keep fixing it up in my head, but the air conditioners and everything-

    30. TNTrevor Noah45:43

        Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah
16. 46:39 – 53:13

    If We Can Cure Baldness, We Can Save the Planet

    1. TNTrevor Noah46:39

       I've never read a book about any major war where people said, "We can't."

    2. MMMia Mottley46:43

       Yep.

    3. TNTrevor Noah46:44

       Do you get what I'm saying?

    4. MMMia Mottley46:44

       Yep.

    5. TNTrevor Noah46:45

       The atom bomb is an impossible idea.

    6. MMMia Mottley46:46

       Yeah.

    7. TNTrevor Noah46:46

       It is truly impossible.

    8. MMMia Mottley46:48

       Yeah.

    9. TNTrevor Noah46:48

       But nobody said, "We can't."

    10. MMMia Mottley46:49

        Yep.

    11. TNTrevor Noah46:49

        They said, "Find more scientists."

    12. MMMia Mottley46:51

        Yeah.

    13. TNTrevor Noah46:51

        They said, "Find more brilliant people." They said, "Find more pieces of land." They said, they made it happen. You know, there's a, a trillion-dollar jet that America never got right.

    14. MMMia Mottley47:00

        So, you know, when I'm being facetious, I say, "If we can find a way to cure men's baldness, we can find a way to save the planet." [laughs]

    15. TNTrevor Noah47:08

        [laughs] But, but is that the problem-

    16. MMMia Mottley47:10

        And I say-

    17. TNTrevor Noah47:10

        ... maybe? Is that the problem, is that it's, is it, is it that we haven't found the right-

    18. MMMia Mottley47:12

        It has to command the priority

    19. TNTrevor Noah47:14

        ... is, yeah, isn't that, is it that maybe we haven't found the right lever? You know, because when you talk to most people about climate change, I, I don't think I'm being mean when I say m- most people don't necessarily care, care, care about it or don't feel like they can afford to care about it on a daily basis because it doesn't seem like the thing that impacts them now.

    20. MMMia Mottley47:32

        So, so let me, the, the-

    21. TNTrevor Noah47:33

        Like, we're so bad at seeing slow problems, you know what I mean?

    22. MMMia Mottley47:36

        Yeah, yeah. So, but let me tell you, it's happening faster than we think, though.

    23. TNTrevor Noah47:39

        Yeah.

    24. MMMia Mottley47:40

        Look at California this year. Look at the fires. I mean, it was apocalyptic.

    25. TNTrevor Noah47:46

        Right.

    26. MMMia Mottley47:47

        Look at the fact that from as far back as probably two, three years ago, insurance companies start, started to say, "We're no longer insuring-

    27. TNTrevor Noah47:56

        Yeah, yeah

    28. MMMia Mottley47:56

        ... for fire risk."

    29. TNTrevor Noah47:56

        We're pulling out of states, yeah.

    30. MMMia Mottley47:58

        Then let's look at Southeastern, South- Southwestern US, sorry, Florida-
17. 53:13 – 55:32

    The Reassembling of the Broken Vase

    1. TNTrevor Noah53:13

       that quarterly, quarterly report-

    2. MMMia Mottley53:15

       You don't see or hear anything else.

    3. TNTrevor Noah53:16

       Yeah. And, and, and all they're thinking about is, "I need to make sure that this number in the next three months is bigger than the next number, is bigger than the next number, is bigger than the ..." And so what that then means is you can't think long term.

    4. MMMia Mottley53:28

       Short-sighted.

    5. TNTrevor Noah53:28

       You can't think in a beautiful soft curve. You can't think in a way that's sustainable, I feel.

    6. MMMia Mottley53:33

       Which brings us back to the conversation about narrow casting and echo chambers. It brings us back to, there's some kids in the region that I met recently, and their parents said, "I make my child watch something that is an hour long every day," because they are so consumed-

    7. TNTrevor Noah53:53

       By quick-

    8. MMMia Mottley53:53

       ... with one minute and two minute, that their capacity-

    9. TNTrevor Noah53:57

       Yeah

    10. MMMia Mottley53:58

        ... to sustain attention, and to think, and to reason is compromised.

    11. TNTrevor Noah54:03

        Yeah.

    12. MMMia Mottley54:04

        The-

    13. TNTrevor Noah54:04

        I think, I think it's, I think it's more than that as well. I, I, I, I, I always find myself bristling when people say, "No one has an attention span," and I go, "That's not true."

    14. MMMia Mottley54:13

        Mm.

    15. TNTrevor Noah54:13

        I, I really don't believe it.

    16. MMMia Mottley54:14

        Mm, mm, mm.

    17. TNTrevor Noah54:15

        And the reason I don't believe it is because somebody can stay on TikTok for four hours.

    18. MMMia Mottley54:18

        Yeah.

    19. TNTrevor Noah54:19

        So they do have an attention span.

    20. MMMia Mottley54:20

        But they just-

    21. TNTrevor Noah54:20

        I think-

    22. MMMia Mottley54:21

        ... rotate it.

    23. TNTrevor Noah54:22

        Yeah, I think what they've done is we've created a system, we've monetized a world.

    24. MMMia Mottley54:28

        Mm.

    25. TNTrevor Noah54:28

        We're keeping you addicted to the drip, drip.

    26. MMMia Mottley54:30

        Yeah.

    27. TNTrevor Noah54:30

        Means that you don't realize the long-term reward of exploring, understanding, misunderstanding-

    28. MMMia Mottley54:37

        Mm-hmm

    29. TNTrevor Noah54:37

        ... rereading-

    30. MMMia Mottley54:38

        Mm-hmm
18. 55:32 – 59:17

    Global Debt Hypocrisy

    1. TNTrevor Noah55:32

       helping people understand why so many countries in the world are stuck in the positions that they're stuck in. You know, I, I grew up in a country where people, until this day, will say, "Ah, well, I mean, look at South Africa, they haven't," you know, and look at... And then I've seen them say that about African countries. "Well, you know, Africa, they haven't done well for themselves. I mean, you, you can blame the European, but Africa hasn't done well for itself." And you talk about this, this-

    2. MMMia Mottley55:56

       Hypocrisy

    3. TNTrevor Noah55:56

       ... global hypocrisy and inequity in a way that I think most people have never heard. A- a- and it made me wonder, like, what do you think, what is one practice that you think is the most globally, you know, indefensible way w- in how larger companies or, or countries are s- are treating smaller countries?

    4. MMMia Mottley56:17

       Uh, you were right in saying larger companies too, because I think it's a form-

    5. TNTrevor Noah56:21

       Oh

    6. MMMia Mottley56:21

       ... of, of, of bullying, and a failure to put yourself in the position of the others, and to craft rules that work for you, but not for everybody. So let's look at, everybody knows the story of Greece with their economy. Greece and Ghana, and I'm not talking about Ghana in the last post-COVID years, but just before COVID. Greece and Ghana had basically the same credit rating, but Greece was accessing money in the international capital markets at a fraction of what Ghana would access it. Part of it has to do with the safe assets, and part of it has to do with a lot of underlying assumptions that were made as you created these institutions.

    7. TNTrevor Noah57:08

       Mm.

    8. MMMia Mottley57:09

       And if I wanna get it as basic as I can, why should Europe determine who's the head of the IMF, and why should the USA determine who's the head of the World Bank?

    9. TNTrevor Noah57:18

       Hmm.

    10. MMMia Mottley57:18

        Doesn't South Africa have somebody who can head the World Bank? Doesn't, um, India have somebody who can head the IMF? So a lot of these assumptions were made, and the rules were crafted in the image of a few, not of the many. And as a result, we've been paying the price of those rules that have not been touched, have not been deconstructed and reconstructed, and we have been paying the price as well that just doesn't matter enough. [laughs] You know? Okay, South Africa's having problems. Okay, that's a conversation piece. Okay, maybe there's too much corruption in Africa. What's happening in Europe and North America? The same corruption not there? It takes two hands to clap.

    11. TNTrevor Noah58:02

        Hmm.

    12. MMMia Mottley58:03

        More often than not, it's a European or a North American investor-

    13. TNTrevor Noah58:06

        Yeah

    14. MMMia Mottley58:06

        ... in Africa-

    15. TNTrevor Noah58:07

        I always say this

    16. MMMia Mottley58:07

        ... that's driving the corruption.

    17. TNTrevor Noah58:08

        Yeah.

    18. MMMia Mottley58:08

        And it takes two hands to clap. This makes no noise. So I think that bringing these things to light matters in terms of those who have a conscience immediately say, "You're right. That's true." And those who don't have a conscience will find it more difficult to sustain the error of their ways.

    19. TNTrevor Noah58:29

        You've said things that have made me think of how we convince people differently, because I remember one day you said, and you'll, you'll, you'll correct me, 'cause I might paraphrase you incorrectly.

    20. MMMia Mottley58:38

        Mm-hmm.

    21. TNTrevor Noah58:38

        You essentially said, "We'll listen to people fighting about, like, migration, and who's going where-

    22. MMMia Mottley58:43

        Mm-hmm

    23. TNTrevor Noah58:43

        ... and who's going..." We never think to ourselves, "How can we pay somebody to stay in their country?"

    24. MMMia Mottley58:48

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    25. TNTrevor Noah58:49

        And I, I, I saw you saying this.

    26. MMMia Mottley58:51

        We must make

    27. TNTrevor Noah58:51

        Yeah, I saw you say that, and some people were like, "Oh, no, you should never... How could you say such a thing?" Be- because I realized there's this, there's this, there's this idea around immigration that has been romanticized, you know?

    28. MMMia Mottley59:00

        Mm-hmm.

    29. TNTrevor Noah59:00

        And I think maybe because I've, I'm an immigrant-

    30. MMMia Mottley59:03

        Yeah
19. 59:17 – 1:01:59

    Pay People to Stay Home

    1. TNTrevor Noah59:17

       But for the most part, people wanna stay home.

    2. MMMia Mottley59:19

       Yep.

    3. TNTrevor Noah59:20

       S- what chases them out is a war.

    4. MMMia Mottley59:22

       Yep.

    5. TNTrevor Noah59:22

       What pushes them out is a famine.

    6. MMMia Mottley59:24

       Mm-hmm.

    7. TNTrevor Noah59:24

       What pulls them somewhere is an opportunity-

    8. MMMia Mottley59:27

       Mm-hmm

    9. TNTrevor Noah59:27

       ... that they don't have where they're from. But if they had those things in the place that they were-

    10. MMMia Mottley59:32

        And discrimination.

    11. TNTrevor Noah59:33

        Yeah.

    12. MMMia Mottley59:33

        Mm-hmm.

    13. TNTrevor Noah59:33

        You find that that would stay their home forever.

    14. MMMia Mottley59:36

        Mm-hmm.

    15. TNTrevor Noah59:36

        And when you said that, I remember thinking-

    16. MMMia Mottley59:38

        So you be-

    17. TNTrevor Noah59:38

        ... this is wild that a world leader would say that, pay people to stay in their country.

    18. MMMia Mottley59:41

        Yeah. Look, and, and it may not be as crude as that. It may be in terms of the development package-

    19. TNTrevor Noah59:47

        Yeah, yeah, yeah

    20. MMMia Mottley59:47

        ... and the investment opportunities.

    21. TNTrevor Noah59:48

        But it broke through when you said that, I think.

    22. MMMia Mottley59:49

        But that's the point. And, and the thing is to get people's attention to start to think differently.

    23. TNTrevor Noah59:54

        Yes.

    24. MMMia Mottley59:54

        Because what I find is that there are too many assumptions that we accept as rigid positions, rather than... And, and the thing I say to my government, to, to my ministers all the time, to the country all the time, let us deconstruct and reconstruct. What is the public policy we're trying to serve? What is the public mischief we need to avoid? Has technology made it more possible or easier for us to do things in a way that we weren't doing it before?

    25. TNTrevor Noah1:00:25

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    26. MMMia Mottley1:00:26

        And if so, who are the winners and who are the losers? Because if you don't see people, you're doing nothing. There will always be somebody who will suffer as a result of the change in the status quo, and there will always be somebody potentially who can benefit. But sometimes you need to go in, just like a, a, a sculptor, and you need to just smooth it out.

    27. TNTrevor Noah1:00:46

        Mm-hmm.

    28. MMMia Mottley1:00:47

        Because even though you're going in one direction, you may find that that's a outlier that you really need to bring back, and if not, down the line it'll lead to X, Y, Z.

    29. TNTrevor Noah1:00:56

        How do you, how do you maintain your hope being such a small nation? Because I, I always think to myself, Barbados to me is, is the perfect analogy for, for what many humans feel in life.

    30. MMMia Mottley1:01:11

        Mm-hmm.
20. 1:01:59 – 1:05:24

    Hope, Faith, and ""Ain't Catch You and Pass You""

    1. MMMia Mottley1:01:59

       You have to believe that the next minute, the next moment, the next month, the next year can in fact be better even if you're going through the hardest of times. Um, at the same time, I've always relied on the fact that God and time and circumstances can be allies. God for faith, time because we have a saying in Barbados, "Wha ain't catch you ain't pass you."

    2. TNTrevor Noah1:02:28

       "Wha ain't catch you ain't pass you?"

    3. MMMia Mottley1:02:30

       Yeah.

    4. TNTrevor Noah1:02:30

       Oh, I like that.

    5. MMMia Mottley1:02:30

       "Wha ain't catch you ain't pass you." So-

    6. TNTrevor Noah1:02:31

       I like that

    7. MMMia Mottley1:02:32

       ... just because you haven't, it hasn't caught you yet, it hasn't passed you either.

    8. TNTrevor Noah1:02:35

       Oh, I like that.

    9. MMMia Mottley1:02:37

       And in terms of circumstances, things happen, and we don't, this may be part of the divine if you're a person of faith, or things just happen if you don't-

    10. TNTrevor Noah1:02:47

        Yeah, yeah

    11. MMMia Mottley1:02:47

        ... have that. And why is my voice on climate resonating more today? Because of the floods in Pakistan, because of countries in Africa that are going through famine and locusts, because of wildfires in Greece and California.

    12. TNTrevor Noah1:03:06

        Yeah.

    13. MMMia Mottley1:03:06

        Those are the circumstances. Time, because 20, 30 years ago when Al Gore was telling us about An Inconvenient Truth-

    14. TNTrevor Noah1:03:16

        Mm

    15. MMMia Mottley1:03:16

        ... nobody wanted to listen. [laughs]

    16. TNTrevor Noah1:03:19

        Mm.

    17. MMMia Mottley1:03:20

        So circumstances and time and faith have a way of conspiring to create that opportunity even regardless of how small you are, and as you learn in the stories with David and Goliath, regardless of how large you are.

    18. TNTrevor Noah1:03:36

        Hm. Do you think the world's-

    19. MMMia Mottley1:03:39

        And I know, and, and, and the fact that, let me give you a s-

    20. TNTrevor Noah1:03:41

        Yeah

    21. MMMia Mottley1:03:41

        ... small example, 'cause South Africa plays cricket. And Nelson Mandela made the point that when he was in prison, learning about the conquests of the West Indies cricketers beating the British, beating the Australians, in the 1960s-

    22. TNTrevor Noah1:03:57

        Yeah

    23. MMMia Mottley1:03:58

        ... that this gave him such a sense of warmth and hope and, you understand? And that's what it does for ordinary people. So Barbados, as small as we are, before Rihanna, there was Sir Garfield Sobers, Gary Sobers, the greatest cricketer of all time. You go to Australia, they'll tell you, "Who's the greatest cricketer of all time, all-rounder?" Gary Sobers. You go to England, Gary Sobers. You go to India, Gary Sobers. He's still living. He's our first living national hero. Rihanna joined him a few years ago. And for me, you know what's special? Both of them grew up within a mile of Bridgetown in humble circumstances.

    24. TNTrevor Noah1:04:40

        Hm.

    25. MMMia Mottley1:04:41

        And both of them came to be the greatest of all in the field that they have been-

    26. TNTrevor Noah1:04:48

        Hm

    27. MMMia Mottley1:04:48

        ... practicing in. So smallness and poverty and circumstances of birth or geography do not define us, and that must always, always, always be kept evermost in our minds and as we raise our children. Nobody's better than us, and we're not better than anybody. But we have the capacity to be the best that we can be, and sometimes our best will actually be better than everyone else.

    28. TNTrevor Noah1:05:14

        Talk to me about the, um, Bridgetown Initiative.

    29. MMMia Mottley1:05:17

        Yeah. So that's just a way of us being able to encapsulate a lot of what we've been discussing here.

    30. TNTrevor Noah1:05:23

        Yeah. But, but it's

21. 1:05:24 – 1:13:21

    The Bridgetown Initiative Explained

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:05:24

       so, it's so fascinating. Please just, just talk us through it. Because I think regardless of where you're from, it's great to hear, you know, amazing ideas that could shape any corner of, of the globe. Talk, talk to me the, about the idea-

    2. MMMia Mottley1:05:36

       So-

    3. TNTrevor Noah1:05:36

       ... its inception and, and what you hope it achieves.

    4. MMMia Mottley1:05:37

       So we realized that the things that we've been speaking about aren't unique to us. And a few years ago I said, "Look, let me bring together a number of the people globally that I've been meeting, that have been agreeing with us, that fundamentally believe that things must change." Now, some of them came from mainstream, within the financial institutions and the UN, some of them from outside, some of them from NGOs. And we brought them all to Barbados a few years ago, and we started the discussion to frame out how can we bring greater transparency and equity and opportunity to countries so that we can achieve the sustainable development goals and at the same time we could save the planet.

    5. TNTrevor Noah1:06:22

       Yeah.

    6. MMMia Mottley1:06:23

       Um, we are on the front line of the climate crisis. There's no two ways about it. I mean, for six months of the year, you worry about a hurricane. For the other few months of the year, Barbados is one of the 15 most water-scarce countries in the world.

    7. TNTrevor Noah1:06:36

       Wow.

    8. MMMia Mottley1:06:36

       Two years ago, we actually had 50% of our 30-year rainfall for the first few months of the year.

    9. TNTrevor Noah1:06:42

       Oof.

    10. MMMia Mottley1:06:42

        So it's real. When we brought everybody together, we realized that, look, we need to make a major statement and to go after a set of reforms globally. You heard me speak about the fact about the need for inclusion. Why should the head of the IMF be a European and the head of the World Bank be an American? That's a deal that was done by a few boys in a club decades ago.

    11. TNTrevor Noah1:07:08

        Yeah.

    12. MMMia Mottley1:07:09

        But it doesn't apply to the world that you and I live in today.

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:07:12

        It also doesn't necessarily mean that the best mind is, is doing the job.

    14. MMMia Mottley1:07:15

        It's definitely not.

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:07:15

        Yeah.

    16. MMMia Mottley1:07:15

        Exactly. You may have the best mind, but you may not-

    17. TNTrevor Noah1:07:18

        Yeah, but you may not

    18. MMMia Mottley1:07:18

        ... equally.

    19. TNTrevor Noah1:07:19

        Yeah.

    20. MMMia Mottley1:07:19

        What we want is opportunity. Let's deal with the Security Council. You have five countries that are the permanent five, but then you have other countries outside it like India that has over, what, 1.4 billion people out of 8 billion people in the world, and they don't sit on the permanent five.

    21. TNTrevor Noah1:07:35

        Hm.

    22. MMMia Mottley1:07:35

        You have Africa And I'm not talking about individual countries in Africa, because I keep making the point that the day that Africa gets its act together and becomes United States of Africa, then you have Africa, India, and China. [laughs]

    23. TNTrevor Noah1:07:49

        Hmm.

    24. MMMia Mottley1:07:49

        And, and, and don't tell me about ethnicities or boundaries drawn, because India has as many ethnicities, um, or Africa has more than, than India, but India has a hundreds of ethnicities-

    25. TNTrevor Noah1:08:01

        Right

    26. MMMia Mottley1:08:01

        ... and languages.

    27. TNTrevor Noah1:08:01

        Languages.

    28. MMMia Mottley1:08:02

        Same with China.

    29. TNTrevor Noah1:08:02

        Yeah.

    30. MMMia Mottley1:08:03

        But they found a way to whole, to stay whole as a nation state. So that why shouldn't Africa be represented on the Security Council as a permanent member? Why should they have to go and fight for an election for a different country every other year to get on? Um, let us look at, we talked about the per capita GDP as the basis. Why should I have to pay more money to borrow money for development when I am more vulnerable, and you're not taking into account my vulnerability in terms of the cost of capital, the interest rates that you'll charge me, but you're asking me to use the notion that, "Oh, you've come out of poverty"? So what do you do? You put me back on a escalator to be pauperized again-
22. 1:13:21 – 1:16:15

    The Susu: How Grandmothers Invented Modern Banking

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:13:21

       ... would then give one of the grannies-

    2. MMMia Mottley1:13:24

       Mm-hmm

    3. TNTrevor Noah1:13:24

       ... a lump sum of money.

    4. MMMia Mottley1:13:25

       You know why I'm laughing?

    5. TNTrevor Noah1:13:26

       Why?

    6. MMMia Mottley1:13:27

       That's a susu.

    7. TNTrevor Noah1:13:28

       That's what it's called?

    8. MMMia Mottley1:13:29

       A susu.

    9. TNTrevor Noah1:13:29

       Susu?

    10. MMMia Mottley1:13:30

        And I then learned actually only a couple weeks ago that in Nigeria they call, uh, I think it susu or something very similar.

    11. TNTrevor Noah1:13:37

        Oh, so it's very similar in the, yeah.

    12. MMMia Mottley1:13:38

        In Barbados, we call it either susu or a meeting turn.

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:13:41

        Yes. I love that.

    14. MMMia Mottley1:13:42

        So that you take your turn- Out of the meeting money

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:13:45

        And, and

    16. MMMia Mottley1:13:46

        And everybody puts in their piece, and that is where, that is how families were sustained

    17. TNTrevor Noah1:13:51

        Exactly. But when you look at what it's trying to do, it, it built this system where people realized on the smallest level

    18. MMMia Mottley1:13:59

        Mm-hmm

    19. TNTrevor Noah1:14:00

        As Black South Africans, they were unbanked

    20. MMMia Mottley1:14:02

        Mm-hmm

    21. TNTrevor Noah1:14:02

        They couldn't get loans. They couldn't get access to any funds that would enable them to do something that required more money than they had at that moment. But if they all put in a little bit, each person every month was getting a lump sum, and then some of it was kept aside in case there was a tragedy, like a-

    22. MMMia Mottley1:14:18

        Yeah

    23. TNTrevor Noah1:14:18

        ... a funeral, a death that was unexpected, et cetera. And then over time, and I've seen this happen in, like, some parts of Africa, some intrepid businesspeople have realized that a market exists where people told them it didn't.

    24. MMMia Mottley1:14:33

        Mm-hmm.

    25. TNTrevor Noah1:14:33

        And they've gone in and said, "Hey

    26. MMMia Mottley1:14:34

        Mm-hmm

    27. TNTrevor Noah1:14:34

        ... we will bank you even though you are unbanked

    28. MMMia Mottley1:14:36

        Mm-hmm

    29. TNTrevor Noah1:14:37

        We will connect you to the financial systems." You know, even the things you're talking about now

    30. MMMia Mottley1:14:40

        Kenya, Kenya is a perfect example
23. 1:16:15 – 1:21:09

    Making Fairness Make Sense

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:16:15

       uh, in France, wherever they may be, how do you make them see, or what do you say to them that helps them understand why their fate is tied to yours when it doesn't seem apparent?

    2. MMMia Mottley1:16:28

       Well, I think climate, as I said, has done a great, great job, circumstances, in proving that point for us

    3. TNTrevor Noah1:16:34

       Mm-hmm

    4. MMMia Mottley1:16:35

       Because they begin to see similarities in what's happening. The difference is that because we're small, we have wipe-out risk. They don't. They can live to see another day. They can live to find the way to build resilience

    5. TNTrevor Noah1:16:48

       Yeah

    6. MMMia Mottley1:16:49

       So that, that works. And the truth is that when you get in front of most people, people get it

    7. TNTrevor Noah1:16:56

       Yeah, it's actually true

    8. MMMia Mottley1:16:57

       What happens is the lack of audience, the lack of voice, and that's why I genuinely believe that if I were to sit in front of President Trump tomorrow and say, "Look, let's do this thing with, with methane"

    9. TNTrevor Noah1:17:11

       So you've never, you've never sat with him?

    10. MMMia Mottley1:17:13

        "You, you, you guys..." Not, not since he's back this time

    11. TNTrevor Noah1:17:15

        Oh, okay, okay

    12. MMMia Mottley1:17:16

        "You guys can drill, baby, drill" [laughs] "And we can save the planet." You understand? And, and, and, and it's a perfect love language, but what it does require is leadership from the G7 or G8 or whatever you wanna call them. And that's why I've said to President Macron, Emmanuel is a good friend. We've worked together on a number of things. Um, President Ruto himself and Barbados, we're working on how do we finance. I actually feel that if the World Bank was created today

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:17:48

        Yeah

    14. MMMia Mottley1:17:49

        It would be created with a different purpose. 80 years ago, you created a bank that needed to help with the reconstruction because of World War II

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:17:58

        World War II, yeah

    16. MMMia Mottley1:17:59

        Okay? And I can give you all the examples of the discriminatory treatment, including the fact that you, you, you, you, you allowed Germany to cap its debt service payments

    17. TNTrevor Noah1:18:10

        Mm-hmm

    18. MMMia Mottley1:18:10

        On the basis of its exports, percentage of its exports, or that UK took 100 years to repay for World War I. Um, but yet you want me to b- borrow and pay back for school in t- 15 years or a hospital. Makes no sense. We need longer-term, cheaper capital in order for the developing world to get where it needs to get

    19. TNTrevor Noah1:18:30

        Mm-hmm, yeah

    20. MMMia Mottley1:18:31

        And to stop the migration that you're complaining about and to have structured arrangements for labor movement and labor shortages. But if we go back to all of this, we find that, look, the absence of that capacity to have cheaper money and cheaper capital is actually making the world unfair. Transpose it as you did to populations. The rich get access to loans on a phone call, and the poor have to depend on a susu or a meeting turn

    21. TNTrevor Noah1:19:05

        Mm-hmm

    22. MMMia Mottley1:19:05

        If they're lucky. And it is that absence of fairness that I believe that if we get in the same room, most human beings do have empathy. Most human beings do care about fairness. But when you're in a large corporation, as you said, and you're pushing for quarterly returns and all of these things, you can hide behind all of that

    23. TNTrevor Noah1:19:29

        Yeah

    24. MMMia Mottley1:19:30

        But if I confront you face to face, you're actually gonna say, "You know, you're right. You know, that ain't fair." And we start to begin, even if it is going to be complex for you to deconstruct, we start the process And we at least agree on the destination, and then we start to discuss the modalities for reaching that destination. And climate has come at a time that maybe if I was leading 15, 20 years ago, I'd just remain a voice in the wilderness. But the global circumstances and, in fact, the democratization of voice-

    25. TNTrevor Noah1:20:09

        Yeah

    26. MMMia Mottley1:20:10

        ... because of technology, has created the capacity for a movement to start to build globally, and I'm not the one who started it. I'm not the one who's gonna finish it. I just happen to be one of the travelers along the way, and I will do my best. Um, there's a part of the Talmud that says that we are not expected to complete the task, but we, neither are we at liberty from resiling from it.

    27. TNTrevor Noah1:20:37

        Hmm.

    28. MMMia Mottley1:20:38

        And I use the metaphor of the relay all the time, and that is why I say to you that we have to do our part. And while I'm doing my part where I am, and I'm not, I'm, I'm not a prime minister. I do the work of a prime minister. That's not who I am. I'm Mia. So for as long as I'm here, I'll do that part of it, but there's gonna be a time when I'll be like Trevor, and I will choose other modalities to be able to bring about and influence people. And

24. 1:21:09 – 1:22:22

    Bring Your Folding Chair to the Table

    1. MMMia Mottley1:21:09

       a conversation at its smallest in a block on a, on a, in a, in a community is exchange and persuasion. [laughs] It's no different at the international level. The problem is that at the international level you're not given access to the room. Shirley Chisholm, who, as you know, in this country was the first Black American congresswoman, Bajan roots, was actually schooled in Barbados, gave credit to her Bar- Barbadian schooling and grandmother for defining who she was as a person. She was the first woman to dare, of Black origin, to dare to run for president in a established political party in this country. You go back and listen to her speeches, they are as relevant today as they were then. But she said one major thing that continues to, to, to, to remind me. Well, a few things actually, but one I'll share. "If they don't have a chair at the table for you, bring your folding chair," and that's what we've had to do.

    2. TNTrevor Noah1:22:10

       I like that.

    3. MMMia Mottley1:22:10

       Bring our folding chair to the table.

    4. TNTrevor Noah1:22:12

       That's sort of what, um, that's sort of what, uh, Ethiopia has just done.

    5. MMMia Mottley1:22:15

       Exactly.

    6. TNTrevor Noah1:22:16

       I mean, we, you know, what we're just speaking about is Ethiopia has been trying for a long time to build a dam,

25. 1:22:22 – 1:29:03

    Ethiopia's Dream Realized

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:22:22

       and I know it hasn't come without its political-

    2. MMMia Mottley1:22:24

       Yeah

    3. TNTrevor Noah1:22:24

       ... you know, sensitivities with Egypt and other countries-

    4. MMMia Mottley1:22:27

       Yeah

    5. TNTrevor Noah1:22:27

       ... that are downstream from the Nile. But it, it, it's really, um, revolutionary what they've done because-

    6. MMMia Mottley1:22:35

       Absolutely

    7. TNTrevor Noah1:22:35

       ... Ethiopia wanted to build a dam that they needed to generate electricity for a region that covers how many millions of people?

    8. MMMia Mottley1:22:43

       Well, the population of Ethiopia is over 100 million.

    9. TNTrevor Noah1:22:45

       You're right.

    10. MMMia Mottley1:22:45

        And only, I think, just over 50% of their population have access to electricity.

    11. TNTrevor Noah1:22:50

        Yeah.

    12. MMMia Mottley1:22:50

        And if you talk to anyone about the story of Africa, the biggest problem in Africa is that when the world is talking about technology-

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:22:58

        Yeah

    14. MMMia Mottley1:22:58

        ... 600 million people out of 1.4 billion do not have electricity.

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:23:03

        Yeah.

    16. MMMia Mottley1:23:03

        And the World Bank has committed to doing 300 million, and I thank Ajay for that, but what's happening to the other 300 million?

    17. TNTrevor Noah1:23:10

        Mm-hmm.

    18. MMMia Mottley1:23:10

        The world has more than enough money to finance it, and the fact that they're using a dam means that they're using renewable energy that is not becoming a drag on the planet as well.

    19. TNTrevor Noah1:23:22

        But how they funded it was fascinating.

    20. MMMia Mottley1:23:23

        That's the story of resilience.

    21. TNTrevor Noah1:23:24

        I mean, that's, that's, that's the most fascinating story.

    22. MMMia Mottley1:23:26

        So the International-

    23. TNTrevor Noah1:23:26

        They asked for a loan from the International Bank.

    24. MMMia Mottley1:23:29

        And the banks, international community refused to fund it for whatever reasons, and the Ethiopians turned inward, and between the central bank and, and the banks in Ethiopia and the ordinary citizens-

    25. TNTrevor Noah1:23:40

        That's, it's a mind-blowing story

    26. MMMia Mottley1:23:42

        ... citizens buying bonds, citizens giving donations. And I said to the prime minister, um, two days ago when we opened it, um, to Abiy, I said, "Look, you know that this is the 21st century Adwa." And, and for those who don't know about Adwa, Adwa is the battle where Ethiopia beat Italy in 1896. Nobody believed it would have happened. And, um, Ethiopia came together, and it took them, I think, almost two years in the long trek, and they rose majestically. Adwa is what led to the beginning of the Pan-African movement. The New York Times, when you go to the, the museum in Addis Ababa that commemorates Adwa, you see the New York Times articles showing that this little African country that's, their mind or mine, is much bigger than Italy, beat the great Italians. And out of this then came the entire movement that, guess what? Black people can achieve something after centuries of domination and subjugation.

    27. TNTrevor Noah1:24:45

        Hmm.

    28. MMMia Mottley1:24:46

        And out of that came the glory of the Pan-African movement, the c- the conferences, ultimately the 1945 Manchester Conference, which really was the last major one before the independence movement, and Nkrumah and all of the others coming out. So for me, this engineering feat, it's the biggest dam in Africa. It's, like, two kilometers wide, 550 feet high. I mean, you have to see it to believe it. I've never seen water move at that speed. And even after they take the water that they need for the dam to generate the electricity, the overspill is coming down with a ferocity that I've nev- I've never seen it. And that they could do it when the world said no. It took them 14 years, but they did it.

    29. TNTrevor Noah1:25:35

        So do you think there's a future where smaller countries and countries that have been cast aside start to think like this, or will-

    30. MMMia Mottley1:25:43

        Absolutely.
26. 1:29:03 – 1:32:10

    Why People Aren't Having Kids

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:29:03

       ever go, "This is the greatest challenge we're facing. Uh, uh, people are not having enough children." And I go, "Yeah, but why would you want to have a child in a world-

    2. MMMia Mottley1:29:10

       Yeah

    3. TNTrevor Noah1:29:10

       ... where you cannot pay for that child's schooling?"

    4. MMMia Mottley1:29:13

       Yeah.

    5. TNTrevor Noah1:29:13

       "Where there's no healthcare for that child, where you don't know where the next meal for that child is gonna come from."

    6. MMMia Mottley1:29:18

       Yeah.

    7. TNTrevor Noah1:29:18

       You, you don't need to bribe people.

    8. MMMia Mottley1:29:21

       And if you don't-

    9. TNTrevor Noah1:29:21

       Yeah, you, you don't create the environment that is necessary for them to want to expand.

    10. MMMia Mottley1:29:25

        And if your state is not going to catch the ball for you-

    11. TNTrevor Noah1:29:28

        Exactly

    12. MMMia Mottley1:29:29

        ... then why do it?

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:29:30

        Exactly.

    14. MMMia Mottley1:29:30

        So that, that's why, and you asked me why. Because in Barbados, we believe that we have a responsibility to provide for every child education, from pre-primary to tertiary.

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:29:43

        Hmm.

    16. MMMia Mottley1:29:43

        The last government removed tertiary education, free tertiary education. The first thing we did when elected, even as we were entering an IMF program, was to reintroduce free tertiary education for Bajans at the University of the West Indies at Cave Hill Campus, because without education, the opportunities are simply not going to be there, and the capacity to reason with people will not, equally not be there. Um, by the same token, we provide access to healthcare. I'd like to do even more, but we do more than most countries of the world, quite frankly. And I think that in understanding that, you then begin to say to the financiers, "That's why I need 30 years or 40 years to pay back for the-

    17. TNTrevor Noah1:30:31

        Yeah

    18. MMMia Mottley1:30:31

        ... construction of a school-

    19. TNTrevor Noah1:30:33

        Yeah

    20. MMMia Mottley1:30:33

        ... or a hospital, because I need to make sure that the people in whom I'm investing are now earning to help me pay back that debt at that point in time. But if you give me 10 or 15 years to do it, uh, everything bunches up, and I'm not yet at the stage where I have the capacity to repay, given the investment that I've made in people."

    21. TNTrevor Noah1:30:54

        Yeah, my mom always used to say, "You need to give the tree long enough time to bear fruit."

    22. MMMia Mottley1:30:57

        Absolutely.

    23. TNTrevor Noah1:30:58

        And if you let it grow long enough, you can keep plucking fruit forever.

    24. MMMia Mottley1:31:02

        That's the point. [laughs] And it's so basic that if we can ... And that's why I say to you that you have the ability, you and others, you and Ava DuVernay and others who are storytellers, who are communicators. More than anything else, we need the world to hear the message. And as a prime minister, as a political figure, they'll immediately devalue what I say by 70% because politicians don't carry this weight-

    25. TNTrevor Noah1:31:33

        Mm-hmm. Yeah

    26. MMMia Mottley1:31:34

        ... that you will carry as a comedian, as an entertainer, um, that she will carry as a producer and a director, that, uh, Usain Bolt or Gary Sobers will carry as a sportsman, or Rihanna will carry as a, as an artist. You have the ability to reach people when they are vulnerable and willing to hear. And it'll stick.

    27. TNTrevor Noah1:32:00

        Well, we, we start like this.

    28. MMMia Mottley1:32:01

        Exactly.

    29. TNTrevor Noah1:32:02

        We start like this, and then our next conversation on a road Playing

    30. MMMia Mottley1:32:06

        In Barbados
27. 1:32:10 – 1:34:28

    Educate, Don't Agitate

    1. MMMia Mottley1:32:10

       gonna get some of my constituents to do it. [laughs]

    2. TNTrevor Noah1:32:13

       As any good leader does. Know when you are not the best person for the job.

    3. MMMia Mottley1:32:17

       Oh, boy.

    4. TNTrevor Noah1:32:17

       That's, that's the mark of a good leader.

    5. MMMia Mottley1:32:19

       I, I will arrange it, I'll manage it.

    6. TNTrevor Noah1:32:21

       [laughs]

    7. MMMia Mottley1:32:21

       I'll even commentate for you. [laughs]

    8. TNTrevor Noah1:32:24

       It's, it's, it's on. It's on. Um, Prime Minister Mottley, thank you so much for joining us. And, uh, yeah, I mean, you know, one of the ... As I say, one of my favorite things about listening to you is-

    9. MMMia Mottley1:32:33

       My name is Mia, by the way.

    10. TNTrevor Noah1:32:34

        Oh, no. I mean-

    11. MMMia Mottley1:32:35

        Please

    12. TNTrevor Noah1:32:36

        ... yes, but in my culture-

    13. MMMia Mottley1:32:37

        Please. Yeah

    14. TNTrevor Noah1:32:37

        ... ha ha.

    15. MMMia Mottley1:32:38

        I know. I know.

    16. TNTrevor Noah1:32:38

        Let, let me call you that and see what my people will say to me.

    17. MMMia Mottley1:32:41

        [laughs]

    18. TNTrevor Noah1:32:41

        I, I acknowledge that.

    19. MMMia Mottley1:32:42

        I know.

    20. TNTrevor Noah1:32:43

        But, um-

    21. MMMia Mottley1:32:43

        Thank you

    22. TNTrevor Noah1:32:43

        ... no, I, I think, I think, I hope you don't take for granted, we live in a world where so many world leaders either can't or don't feel the need to break down some of the most complicated issues that people are experiencing in the world, and then they turn around and are shocked by people protesting in the streets, burning things down, or even just losing complete faith in the system that exists.

    23. MMMia Mottley1:33:07

        Yeah.

    24. TNTrevor Noah1:33:07

        They go, "Why won't people vote?" And you go, "Yes, but why won't you listen to them when the voting isn't what's the most important thing at that time?" And I think what I've always appreciated about you is, um, you take the time to break down the concept. You take the time to see what someone you don't agree with is seeing, and you, you, you put a concerted effort into doing what I think all great leaders should do, which is educating us-

    25. MMMia Mottley1:33:30

        Mm-hmm

    26. TNTrevor Noah1:33:30

        ... about the world that we live in. So thank you so much for joining me.

    27. MMMia Mottley1:33:32

        As- Thank you. And, you know, our last rebellion in 1937, the theme was educate, don't agitate.

    28. TNTrevor Noah1:33:40

        Hmm. I like that.

    29. MMMia Mottley1:33:44

        Yep.

    30. TNTrevor Noah1:33:44

        Educate, don't agitate.
28. 1:34:28 – 1:34:48

    Outro & Final Thoughts

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:34:28

       And don't forget to engage with us in the comments. Uh, if you wanna, uh, suggest a guest, maybe there's questions you want, maybe there's ideas that you have, you can chat to us. We will read through the comments, and we'll get into it. Either way, I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you for hanging out with us on What Now? And remember, we do this for you, so we would like to hear from you. Till next time. Thank you.

Episode duration: 1:34:51