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What Now? With Trevor NoahRIP… D.E.I. with Ruha Benjamin | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast
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80 min read · 16,210 words- 0:00 – 3:25
Trevor's school expulsion story
- TNTrevor Noah
So I was expelled from my primary school.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
And now if you drive past it-
- RBRuha Benjamin
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
I- no joke, they have, they'll have-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yes
- TNTrevor Noah
... like a banner flying sometimes and they're like-
- RBRuha Benjamin
I love it
- TNTrevor Noah
... "We're proud that Trevor Noah went here."
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
And I, I look at it, I'm like, "You guys kicked me out. You guys kicked me out of the school, and now you're putting up a banner like, 'We are proud to be the school that Trevor Noah went to.'" Then I'm like, "But you kicked me out." [upbeat music] This is What Now? With Trevor Noah. [upbeat music] You know, I, it, it's funny, in, in preparing for this conversation, I was thinking there's very few people we sit down with where you can talk about as many topics-
- RBRuha Benjamin
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
... as we can with you.
- RBRuha Benjamin
I know.
- TNTrevor Noah
Like, when I think of a, when I think of a Venn diagram of conversation, Ruha fits perfectly in the middle of most of these Venn-
- RBRuha Benjamin
I know
- TNTrevor Noah
... like everyth- I mean, like everything. I wrote-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Master of none, though. Master of none.
- SPSpeaker
Don't say that.
- TNTrevor Noah
No, no, no, no.
- RBRuha Benjamin
No, no, no, no, no, no.
- TNTrevor Noah
Actually, no.
- RBRuha Benjamin
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Actually, you should say that.
- SPSpeaker
You think she's a master of none?
- TNTrevor Noah
You, actually, you should say that. Wait, wait, I'll, uh, I'm gonna read you-
- RBRuha Benjamin
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
I'm gonna read you the f- the full quote. Um-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah
- 3:25 – 5:00
Examining the failures and limitations of DEI initiatives
- TNTrevor Noah
maybe the first thing we should jump into-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... is DEI.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Has DEI failed? Was it bound to fail?
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah, I was never a big booster of DEI, so to see it coming down, I feel for those who were genuinely invested in that as a potential to transform institutions and industries. But it always felt like a concession, a placeholder for something that could be more transformative. And so like with placeholders, I think they become permanent. [laughs] Then as opposed to being a stepping stone, it becomes this kind of, you know, uh, safe way of corralling those who would sort of cause trouble. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- RBRuha Benjamin
And, and so, you know, you could say it was bound to fail, or you could say it w- it's doing exactly what it was designed to do. Um, and so I think we shouldn't be satisfied with kind of these sort of token, fleeting forms of attention because as we're seeing now, they come and go very quickly. So a lot, so many of the people who were hired under DEI programs, you know, after the killing of George Floyd are now l- losing their jobs.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Entire programs are-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- RBRuha Benjamin
... going up in smoke. So I think we should rethink what our demands are. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Ruha, it's interesting you say that. W- the thing that made me come across you, not first, but a very viral moment, you gave a commencement speech at your alma mater, Spelman College, and you said, "Black faces in high places will not save us." And for some people who really believe in, like, representation politics, they jut up against that idea. They think, "No,
- 5:00 – 10:00
Black representation in high positions and institutional power
- SPSpeaker
we need Black p- faces in high spaces." What brought you to that conclusion? 'Cause it's a v- a very radical one, and also like-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... I would say kind of cynical as well.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And which I'm, you know, I'm a cynical person.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- RBRuha Benjamin
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
But I'm just like, I'm just interested about what, what about your life path brought you-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... to p- that place of it doesn't matter if it's a Black person at the top.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
This, this int- this system is rotten.
- RBRuha Benjamin
So many stories I could tell. One is, as a graduate student, um, I was in that kind of position of being enrolled to be the Black face of a scientific program that was trying to recruit more Black patients to undergo a very experimental treatment. So I was enrolled to be that person that was supposed to help win over the trust of this community that was needed for this program, and it was a very uncomfortable position because I was at the one hand, you know, sort of touted and put up, uh, on a pedestal, but at the same time very vulnerable, 'cause if I had said no, then I would have lost access to X, Y, and Z. So one is my own complicity. Then very recently in the last year, um, in my own institution, I've observed how Black administrators in particular are really being Called on to do the dirty work, to write the threatening emails, to call students who are demanding an end to genocide aggressive and, and, and, uh, angry, and a threat. And so it's not the white president, but a whole flank of Black administrators who are the ones who are really, um, you know, doing the work of these institutions to repress, uh, free speech and dissent. And I think that that is very strategic because when that is the face of the message, people perhaps who believe in representational politics may be less likely to question it, be critical of it, to push back against it. So it's really a way of insulating business as usual with a cosmetic veneer of change and progress and inclusion that I really believe we have to look past and look through in order to see what's actually going on.
- TNTrevor Noah
I can imagine, you know, as, as I'm listening to you say these two things about diversity, uh, the, the first part of it is I can imagine a lot of people who don't share your politics cheering with you, first of all.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
'Cause they ... Like, I think of people like Elon Musk who have said, "No," you know, he's like, "We don't want diversity."
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
"We want the best people for the job, and that's it, and stop, stop hiring diversity. Boeing planes are crashing because of the Blacks."
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
"The Blacks don't know how to screw doors in."
- RBRuha Benjamin
[laughs] Yes. Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right? Even though there's no, there's literally [laughs] there's no record of this. So he would hear you-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yes
- TNTrevor Noah
... and be like, "Yes, thank you."
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah. Yes.
- TNTrevor Noah
"We don't want diversity."
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
"We want the best person for the job."
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yes.
- TNTrevor Noah
Another person would be like, wait, but, but then Ruha, if, if we're not addressing the exclusion of people ... Like, when I, when I think of South Africa's history-
- 10:00 – 26:00
Student protests and academic freedom at Princeton
- RBRuha Benjamin
so again, when we're offered two choices, exclusion or inclusion, we always have to ask ourselves what's being left off the table. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
I, I actually had a follow-up.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
You have been an activist alongside the students-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... um, in the pro-Palestine movement, kind of become the, I'd say, the professorial face of this movement at Princeton, and because of your, your stance, you've been suspended.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
And that is what you're talking about when you're talking about Black administrators and the protests again-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... against genocide, et cetera, in the light of diversity and inclusion.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, can you speak more about that? Because you're putting your career on the line, and-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Absolutely
- SPSpeaker
... there's people out there be like, "What's Palestine got to do with you?"
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
So I, I'd be ... I, I'm really curious about that.
- RBRuha Benjamin
I, I'm h- happy to. And just quick clarification, I'm on probation for a year-
- SPSpeaker
Okay
- RBRuha Benjamin
... specifically for accompanying the students in a sit-in that took place in the spring. And I went in because they were concerned about, one, police brutality that we'd been witnessing at Columbia and other places, and also because up until that point the administration was really distorting their activities and their motives. And so they were ... they wanted a kind of objective faculty observer, but the administration has rejected that s- that status and just said I was with them, and so now I'm on probation. And so, you know, to think about, again, at the very moment you mentioned the MacArthur, the day before I, uh, received the call from MacArthur that I won this award in s- in September, I had just had a very tense call with the administration that was essentially investigating my role. And so when the award, it was announced, it was all over the university website, all of the accolades. So they take credit, and at the same time they're investigating me for basically, um, acting on what I, uh, was hired to do.
- TNTrevor Noah
Damn.
- RBRuha Benjamin
And so they're happy for it to stay theory. They're happy for it to stay on the page, but when you start actually living what you're writing and studying about, then it becomes a problem. And so that is, again, this disjunction between liking things to be, um, controlled in the way that will benefit them, but as soon as you start to challenge them, then they p- try to put you in your place. Try being the operative word.
- TNTrevor Noah
You spoke about this, you know, i- in that, in that same address-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... that Christiana was talking about that went viral. One of the things you speak about as well is these universities, and universities in general, being quick to suppress people's voices when a protest is happening.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
But then many years later, rewarding those people with honorary degrees or-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... and it, I didn't realize that until you said it. I was like, "Oh yeah, there's so many people," you name it, like from MLK to Nelson Mandela to-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... where universities, like the institutions-
- 26:00 – 34:45
Debating integration versus segregation in society
- RBRuha Benjamin
to each other. So I think hand-in-hand with this worldview is this idea that we have to build a social fabric that when I hurt you, I'm both gonna be accountable to and I'm going to take action to ensure it doesn't happen again. So when it comes to school and what we would call, like, the, the, you know, the, the school-to-prison pipeline, and all the ways that we incorporate incarceral processes and logics in school, including suspension and detention and all of these things, it's a lack of creativity. It's a lack of thinking, how else could we organize this such that we don't cut off people who have a bad day or are, you know, sort of wrestling with something and can't express why it is, so they act out in this way? There's examples of schools and communities that are experimenting with that, and a lot of it comes down to, again, this prioritization of order and excellence over really play and imagination, and thinking about the, the fact that oftentimes the first things to go from many schools when there's budget cuts, uh, recess and art, [laughs] like the very places-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... that people would be able to have self-expression. And even our language of, like, Black excellence, like, as something to strive for, um, has a huge underside. You know, uh, going back to what we were joking about, the kind of, like, Nigerian parents, like, there's so much that gets lost and repressed and discounted when we strive for a very narrow form of achievement. There's so many forms of intelligence and genius and creativity that gets shut down [laughs] that we're never, never, we never get to experience because we want everyone to sit behind their desks for eight hours a day, raise their hand, walk in line, you know? And so part of it is to rethink even what we consider education and excellence and achievement.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right. Yeah.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Because everyone could ev- ultimately benefit from those changes.
- TNTrevor Noah
So I, I love that idea.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
But I, I still say I should've been expelled.
- RBRuha Benjamin
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay?
- RBRuha Benjamin
Okay.
- TNTrevor Noah
No, and I'll, I'll, I'll tell you why. So I think, I think this is one of the main things that we struggle with in society. Unfortunately, we are always at the mercy of, you know, the average, right?
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And that is, that's most systems.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
You're working at the mercy of the average.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
If a car is too high, it cannot drive into a parking garage, right? If something is too wide, it cannot fit into an aisle, e- et cetera, et cetera. And so I think of, like, schools. Schools are a crazy novel concept when you think-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... about it, right? W- we design, like, one building where, like-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... 1,000-odd people can come in-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... and all of them are learning, and all of them are coming together, where before it was just, like, little community, few people.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
You learn what you can.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah.
- 34:45 – 44:20
Human beings searching for solutions to real problems
- RBRuha Benjamin
about that.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- RBRuha Benjamin
You know?
- TNTrevor Noah
When I, when I was sitting looking at some of your work, there was one question I wanted to ask you, which is extremely controversial.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
I'm gonna say this ahead of time.
- RBRuha Benjamin
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
But, a- and I'll preface it with this. I oftentimes think to myself that as human beings, we're searching for solutions to real problems. We very seldom think that we've reached the wrong solution.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right? Because we have a good intention. I really believe most human beings do. And in looking at some of your work, your speeches, your, your, your writing, and even society itself, even some of the things you're saying now, I, I, I found myself wondering, and this applies to America, and then maybe it'll go to other places in a different way, because Finland ties in. Do you think that integration was the right move? Like, I, and now I'm separating two things, 'cause I know in America people are like, "Well, of course. I mean, there were, people were, there was racism and there was segregation." And I go, "Yeah, no, no, no, I'm separating them." Let's separate someone being oppressed and someone not being able to get a job and someone not being able-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... to get a bank loan. Let's take all of those, the negative things away.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Because I'll put myself out personally-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... and say I think- Whether we're talking about gifted kids-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... who are anomalous, let's say, to the norm.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Whether we are talking about, um, a- and I mean anything, anything that-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... does not fit into a category, I think the r- part of the reason Finland is able to do it-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... is because, have you been to Finland?
- RBRuha Benjamin
It's very homogenous. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
I've been to Finland. You know who's in Finland? Finnish people.
- RBRuha Benjamin
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
That's it. That's it. And because they're all Finnish, there's an idea of like, no, we all head in the same direction.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
We all know what our actions mean.
- 44:20 – 59:03
Exploring the possibilities and dangers of AI technology
- SPSpeaker
So, um, Trevor over here is a real AI enthusiast, and I am a technophobe.
- RBRuha Benjamin
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Like, I'm a Luddite. [laughs] He talks a lot, a lot about, like, the transformative-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... possibilities of AI. I'm terrified.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Now, I know-
- TNTrevor Noah
And also the reali- I mean-
- SPSpeaker
The reality
- TNTrevor Noah
... if you even rewind this exact conversation-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, no, it's grounded. But you know, he-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes
- SPSpeaker
... 'cause he's just an optimist in nature-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... he has a very optimistic view of AI.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And I know your work with the New Jim Code.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
You speak a lot about, like, racist robots and all-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... of these things.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
I don't want you to feed into my technophobia.
- RBRuha Benjamin
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
I want you to describe this world-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... if we used our imagination to-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... its fullness. What could AI prob- perhaps do for us that's really good?
- 59:03 – 1:01:23
VR technology's role in cultural preservation
- RBRuha Benjamin
exhibit. I wasn't, I have n- not, I wasn't really a, a for VR. I've written about it, of how it's manipulated and used for, like, trauma porn, et cetera.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- RBRuha Benjamin
But I'm collaborating with an amazing team that's working on a project called Phoenix of Gaza. It's a VR exhibit that has footage, um, from the last few years in Gaza, before the devastation. Many cultural everyday activities, weddings, sewing groups, children playing, people doing po- sharing poetry, and also now in the aftermath of this genocide. And so this is where you enter the world. It's very different from seeing something on film or on screen. Like, the kids are looking at you eye to eye, like you're standing over the shoulder of a teenager reciting poetry passionately.
- TNTrevor Noah
Damn.
- RBRuha Benjamin
You're on, you're with a little boy on a skateboard going on the beach. He has the camera and you're, you're riding with him. And so this experience of entering this world is one thing, but it's the fact that it's created by and for Palestinians, and I think it matters who's creating these technologies with what values and goals in mind. Like, um, you know, the stories that they're telling are about preservation. It's about rebuilding. It's about having now the footage of churches that have been demolished, mosques that have been demolished, but h- but having the, the architecture there, you know, in this 360 camera-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- RBRuha Benjamin
... with the idea that we are gonna go home and we are gonna rebuild this. And so the Phoenix of Gaza XR project is one of the few, um, you know, of these kind of emerging technology projects that I think of as truly liberatory, in that the goal is to, you know, engender self-determination and cultural preservation and a return, a right to return.
- TNTrevor Noah
I've been wrestling with this idea, and some of it has been inspired by conversations, some of it has just been reading, learning, et cetera, about- How much responsibility everybody bears for how they frame every single conversation they have.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right? And, and the reason I think about it is because, you know, in our conversation we've touched on ideas of intention-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... culture, power, perception, you know?
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
All, all of these things. And I can't help but think about
- 1:01:23 – 1:13:56
Communication challenges in conflict resolution
- TNTrevor Noah
Israel Palestine, and how when I've sat down with people who are pro-Israel, Israeli or Jewish and Jewish American-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... what's been interesting to me is seeing how different or how differently people are hearing the same thing.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Do you know what I mean?
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
So here's a simple one. Not a simple issue, but, like, just an example. You know, there's a chant that people often say, "From the river to the sea-"
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah. Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... Palestine shall be free." For anyone I know who's Palestinian, when I've asked them what does that chant mean, they say-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... "Well, we want freedom for all our people."
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
"Not just in Gaza, but from the West Bank. We want freedom for everyone."
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah, from the River Jordan-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- RBRuha Benjamin
... to the Mediterranean Sea.
- TNTrevor Noah
From the River Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea, we want our freedom.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know? And that's what we chant. And then when I've spoken to my friends who are Jewish, or Israeli maybe-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... and not even, you know, religious Jew or whatever, but-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... Jewish, they go, "No, this is a chant of genocide."
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
They're saying, "From the river to the sea, they're going to cleanse us." What is, what stands in the way of the river and the, and the sea?
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's Israel.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And, and I, I can't help but have compassion-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm
- 1:13:56 – 1:19:45
Gender dynamics in educational spaces
- TNTrevor Noah
idea of like creating more of as opp- as opposed to trying to jam everybody more in? Mm. Mm-hmm. Does, does this make sense? Yes.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yes.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes. And I know- I get what you're saying ... someone might hear me say this and go like, "What? So you're saying we should have like a women only lab?" Maybe- [laughs] ... is what I'm saying. I'm saying I don't know, by the way. Mm-hmm. I'm just saying like what would happen- Yeah ... because that guy's not wrong. Mm-hmm. Like even in, in war, I, I- But Trevor, it's gonna be tough for you mixed race people, isn't it? Oh, don't worry about us.
- RBRuha Benjamin
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Like, well, w- with kids. Don't worry about us ... to m- Dominican, Nigerian, Puerto Rican-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... Brazilian, British- Yes, yes ... and American passports. Yes. They're gonna be the only ones in the lab. Yes.
- RBRuha Benjamin
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
But can, but can I tell you something? And I'll, I'll tell you, I have believed in this for a long time. I still do. I believe adversity is your friend- Yeah ... if you're taught to deal with it. Mm. You know, I, I talk to you all the time about anti-fragility as opposed to- Yeah ... just resilience. Mm. Mm-hmm. I remember having a conversation with a group of like former military, you know, I don't, I don't know what they, where they served and how, and I think it was even from different countries, and they talked about how they were less efficient and less able to do their jobs if they were serving with women, and not in like, these people weren't being shitty, by the way. Mm-hmm. They just gave me a new perspective. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. They weren't like, "Women shouldn't be in the military." They were like, "Can I be honest with you?" Mm-hmm. "When I'm in a gun fight and I'm surrounded by guys, I just think about winning the gun fight." Mm-hmm. "When I'm in a gun fight and there's a woman in the battalion, I'm like, damn, we gotta make sure she's also ... Because when we're picking up the backpacks and we're running, and then her, I'm thinking of her, the weight that she's carrying." And some of it, I know some of it will tap into like patriarchy. Mm-hmm. Some of it will tap into in- But some of it also taps into the very real thing that human beings have, where a mother will care more for a child than she will for an adult. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And where like instinctively as people, sometimes we act differently in an environment. Mm-hmm. And so I, I, I just wonder- Mm ... even for you talking about the sisterhood- Mm-hmm ... what do you think is so important about finding spaces- Mm-hmm ... where people who are alike- Mm ... can come together without those spaces being- Mm-hmm ... exclusionary? Yeah. Because it's a paradox. Yeah, yeah.
- RBRuha Benjamin
Yeah. And so I think, you know, it's like when I talk about the sisterhood, it's always with an eye to what often gets assumed about the sisterhood. For me, the value of bringing together everyone that seems the same on one level is that you immediately realize how different you are.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- RBRuha Benjamin
So for me, the great value of my Spelman education is I realized how much difference and hierarchy there is among Black women, whether it's because of skin tone, region, where you're born, your class, your religion, your sexuality. And so the value is to actually undo the notion that we're all alike, [laughs] and that you actually get-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- RBRuha Benjamin
... to wrestle deeply with the fault lines that you often don't have to get to do in predominantly white settings because you have to band together.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- RBRuha Benjamin
And so it, it, the value of it is not to relish in some idealized notion of shared identity, but to actually say, "Crap, like we have all of these issues that we never, ever get to deal with because we always have to have this false sense of unity and sameness," right?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- RBRuha Benjamin
And so there, there-
- TNTrevor Noah
Sameness, yeah
- RBRuha Benjamin
... there is definitely a function for that.
- TNTrevor Noah
I would love to know, like, y- you know, I know it's a, it's a, it's a big thing, but from yourself personally-
- RBRuha Benjamin
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... and then what you, what you see hopefully unfolding or what you see realistically unfolding in the landscape of education.
- RBRuha Benjamin
So I'm, I'm terrible at prognostication and prediction.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- RBRuha Benjamin
Um, in part because that's what AI-
- TNTrevor Noah
A real sociologist.
- RBRuha Benjamin
That, that- [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Have you noticed none of them do it quite well? Yeah, yeah. No, I'm not doing it.
- RBRuha Benjamin
No, but I mean-
Episode duration: 1:19:45
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Transcript of episode 1VRCfuKEGdo
