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What Now? With Trevor Noah

The Anxious Generation with Jonathan Haidt | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

Jonathan Haidt, noted social psychologist and author of The Anxious Generation, sits down with us to discuss how smartphones and social media are harming Gen Z – and really all of us.

Trevor NoahhostJonathan Haidtguest

May 15, 20251h 21mWatch on YouTube

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CHAPTERS

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Chapter summaries

Age Checks and the Leisure Suit Larry Story
Trevor Noah recounts clicking "I am 18" to get past the age check in a computer game as a kid. He uses it to show how little stands between young kids and content considered harmful.
- •The barrier to entry for harmful content is just clicking a button claiming to be 18
- •Noah says he first answered honestly in Leisure Suit Larry, was refused, then rebooted and claimed to be 18
- •The anecdote frames the episode's concern about kids' access to online content
Why The Anxious Generation Resonated with Parents
Noah introduces Jonathan Haidt and asks why the book connected so widely. Haidt says mothers in particular feel family life has become a fight over screen time, and that mothers' reactions are driving laws and political change.
- •Anxiety, depression and loneliness are rising among young people
- •Haidt says touchscreen devices are far more addictive than TV because of the stimulus-response loop
- •Mothers felt kids being pulled away more than fathers did
- •Haidt says laws are often pushed by female leaders or leaders' wives who read the book, as in South Australia
From Play-Based to Phone-Based Childhood
Haidt summarizes the book as a tragedy in two acts: overprotection in the real world from the 1990s, then a sudden shift to smartphone childhoods between 2010 and 2015. He answers the moral-panic criticism by pointing to the simultaneous rise in girls' mental illness across the developed world.
- •Haidt says we overprotected kids in the real world and underprotected them online
- •Act one: from the 1990s, kids were pulled indoors despite falling crime
- •Act two: 2010–2015 brought smartphones with front-facing cameras, Instagram and high-speed internet during early puberty
- •He says the school shooting explanation can't account for girls' self-harm rising in Australia, Scandinavia and Europe in 2012–2013
What Play Teaches: Self-Governance and Risk
Noah describes hyper-supervised playgrounds and asks what kids lose. Haidt explains that play wires the brain through exploring, trying and failing, and that constant adult intervention trains kids to rely on authority. They also discuss risky play, over-sanitized playgrounds and Haidt's observations of students arriving in 2014–2015.
- •Haidt says play builds brains and the skills of self-governance
- •Kids trained to report conflicts to adults are being trained for authoritarianism, per Haidt
- •Concerted cultivation parenting and overscheduled kids have spread across class and race lines
- •Haidt noticed students arriving in 2014–2015 with high anxiety and more "defend mode"
- •Mariana Brussoni's view: playgrounds should be as safe as necessary, not as safe as possible
Anti-Fragility, Exclusion and Rough-and-Tumble Play
Haidt asks parents how often they'd want their children excluded by age 18, and explains anti-fragility using the immune-system analogy. The conversation moves to roughhousing, school policies that hurt boys, and the decline of boys' educational outcomes.
- •Negative childhood experiences like exclusion are essential, though Haidt says multi-day bullying has no evidence of benefit
- •Kids need to learn conflict and cooperation together
- •Haidt says young male mammals do more rough-and-tumble play, and no-touch policies hurt boys
- •1980s school changes cutting recess and art coincided with boys beginning to drop out
Boys, Video Games, Porn and Behavioral Addiction
Haidt draws on Richard Reeves's work to explain why boys are falling behind while technology targets them. He describes video games, porn, gambling and short videos as hooks, and the dopamine changes that can result.
- •Girls outperform boys from kindergarten through PhD, per Haidt
- •Multiplayer games arrived with high-speed internet and are designed to keep boys on
- •Haidt says 5–15% get addicted to each of these activities
- •Dampened dopamine response can make everything off-screen feel boring and hurt attention in class
- •Noah describes the free-to-play model as a drug-dealer model
Online Dangers and the Missing Age Gates
Haidt traces the internet from 1990s techno-optimism to today's risks, including Omegle and predators on Instagram and Snapchat. He argues that the internet needs age gating.
- •Early internet was slow and not dominated by companies expert at addicting users
- •As late as 2012–2013 people were still techno-optimists
- •Haidt says child molesters are now on Instagram and Snapchat, where kids can be extorted over photos
- •Parents guard against playground risks yet kids can enter risky online worlds with one click
Free-to-Join Games, Zoom and Joint Attention
Haidt and Noah discuss why games are different from embodied communities that cost something to join or leave. Haidt links Zoom to Tomasello's work on joint attention, and Noah describes putting consoles in one room as a hybrid solution.
- •Girls thrive with a few close friends, and Instagram swapped those for hundreds of contacts
- •Haidt says games are at least synchronous, but in-person togetherness is special
- •Noah argues life isn't only about efficiency and in-person meetings carry connection Zoom loses
- •Haidt cites Tomasello on joint attention distinguishing humans from chimpanzees
- •Noah suggests putting kids in the same room with their consoles
Putnam, Lost Trust and Preparing Kids for Democracy
After a break, Haidt brings in Robert Putnam's work on declining social capital. He says the 1990s retreat from outdoor play was driven by lost trust in neighbors, and that parents now fear police calls. He ties this to de Tocqueville and civic self-reliance.
- •Haidt says kids stopped playing outside because trust in neighbors was falling, not because the world was getting more dangerous
- •Responsibility for kids now falls especially on mothers, who are blamed or even arrested
- •Noah compares neighbors reporting each other to Soviet-era surveillance
- •Haidt cites de Tocqueville on Americans solving problems collectively and says we are preparing kids for authoritarianism instead
How Social Media Harms Girls
A speaker asks about girls, self-harm and body image. Haidt explains how social media targets girls' social interests and exposes them to comparison, inappropriate role models and eating-disorder content, and he argues emotional contagion explains the sudden spike in girls' mental illness around 2012.
- •Social information and gossip are especially appealing to girls
- •Girls see enhanced photos of friends and influencers who tell them looks are what matter
- •Accounts posing as 13-year-olds searching diets quickly get eating-disorder content
- •Haidt says kids average about 12 minutes of vigorous exercise and 8–10 hours of screen time a day
- •The girls' curves spike in 2012 like a hockey stick, which Haidt attributes to emotional contagion
What Parents Can Do: Regaining Attention and the Four Norms
Asked about protective measures, Haidt says it's not too late and describes how students in his class improved by cutting social media. He then lays out four norms to roll back the phone-based childhood.
- •Haidt says the brain stays plastic into the early 20s and early puberty is a key period
- •Students who cut back TikTok reported better focus, sleep and time with friends
- •Doing it as a group with other parents or peers makes it easier
- •Four norms: no smartphone before high school, no social media until 16, phone-free schools, more free play and independence
Third Spaces, Streets and Reclaiming Neighborhoods
Haidt notes the lack of third spaces, and Noah argues the street outside your door can serve as one, citing block parties and his township childhood. Haidt says communities must be deliberate, and mentions the SUV problem and a UK teen hangout.
- •Haidt says third spaces like parks and libraries have been decimated
- •Noah says during apartheid the streets were his third space, and kids ran them responsibly
- •Noah suggests neighbors can claim back the street collectively, as with block parties
- •Haidt says cities require more deliberate community-building and mentions a UK teen space called The Den
Let Grow Programs and Rebuilding Independence
Haidt describes Let Grow's Play Club and Let Grow Experience, which help kids and parents build independence and reduce fear. The conversation covers involving shopkeepers and police, and Haidt closes on a growing global movement.
- •Play Club uses school playgrounds after school with an adult nearby but no direction
- •The Let Grow Experience asks kids to do something new on their own with parents' permission
- •Haidt says teens began agreeing around 2011 that "my life feels useless" and that kids need to do useful things
- •Haidt says parents' fear drops after kids succeed, as with his own son walking to school
- •Doing it at community scale changes norms, and a speaker suggests telling shopkeepers

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