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The Ozempic Obsession with Jia Tolentino | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

Ozempic, It started with a lizard, and then transformed into a drug that, depending on who you ask, is either a miracle or the downfall of society.

Trevor NoahhostChristinahostJia Tolentinoguest

Aug 22, 202448mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

50 min read · 10,273 words

0:00 – 0:01
Intro
1. TNTrevor Noah
  [upbeat music]
0:01 – 5:25
Pro-Choice on Ozempic: Opening Positions
1. TNTrevor Noah
  I'm not a scientist, and none of this is actual advice. Please take everything ... Imagine I'm an idiot who has stumbled into your village.
2. CHChristina
  [laughs]
3. TNTrevor Noah
  Now you can listen to me. [upbeat music] This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. [upbeat music] Christiana, nice to see you in person.
4. CHChristina
  Good to see you in person, Trevor.
5. TNTrevor Noah
  This is so much fun, friend. I haven't seen you in so ... like, like this-
6. CHChristina
  I know
7. TNTrevor Noah
  ... in the flesh.
8. CHChristina
  We used to do this every day.
9. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
10. CHChristina
  Remember?
11. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah. That was the best thing.
12. CHChristina
  We used to make a show every day. [laughs]
13. TNTrevor Noah
  Every single day of our lives.
14. CHChristina
  [laughs]
15. TNTrevor Noah
  That, that was ... I was like, I loved it.
16. CHChristina
  You liked it so much you quit-
17. TNTrevor Noah
  Ah. I mean-
18. CHChristina
  ... and left us. [laughs]
19. TNTrevor Noah
  [laughs] Oh, man. Um, I'm excited to have this conversation today because, um, I'm, I mean, I'm, I'm excited for all conversations. But, like, this conversation is, is one that I don't even think we'll be able to complete today, which I think all good conversations are strangely enough. And this one in particular intrigues me because everybody's talking about Ozempic, right? And we're not talking about Ozempic the product today. I think that's, that's gonna be important for everyone to understand. We're just gonna use that as a name for-
20. CHChristina
  Mm-hmm
21. TNTrevor Noah
  ... you know, these weight loss drugs.
22. CHChristina
  Yeah.
23. TNTrevor Noah
  'Cause Ozempic, Mounjaro, Zepbound, Wegovy, you name it.
24. CHChristina
  Yeah.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  You know? The, the point is we're talking about inject, lose weight, apparently feel great. This is the ... That's my catchphrase, by the way, if they wanna buy it from me.
26. CHChristina
  [laughs]
27. TNTrevor Noah
  I'm, I'm available, Eli Lilly. I'm available, and Novo Dos- Dospis. I ne- I never know how to say their name.
28. CHChristina
  Yeah, I can't say it either.
29. TNTrevor Noah
  But, uh, yeah, it's ... I feel like we're at an interesting inflection point in society where there was a point when this would've just been ... would, would've been shunned completely.
30. CHChristina
  Yeah.
5:25 – 8:08
Thinness, Morality and the Idea of Cheating
1. JTJia Tolentino
  Well, I, you know, this I do have thoughts on. You know, I think that one of the things that our whole fascination with Ozempic is based on is ... And it's interesting. You know, Christiana, I wonder if you have thoughts with little kids, right? Part of beauty is thinness, as, as it's taught to you from a really early age. Like, fatness, queerness, darkness, all of these things are, like, coded as signs of deviance. I f- Like, you, you learn as a really young child in Disney movies, in anything, like, beauty is really coded as morality.
2. TNTrevor Noah
  Right. Right, right.
3. JTJia Tolentino
  And there's this Protestant work ethic thing, right? It's something that you should achieve through hard and punitive work and discipline, right?
4. CHChristina
  Yeah.
5. JTJia Tolentino
  And when people use Ozempic, it's like, mm, you cheated.
6. CHChristina
  Yeah.
7. JTJia Tolentino
  You skipped the hard work part.
8. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm.
9. CHChristina
  You know? Yeah.
10. JTJia Tolentino
  And so you, you got the thing we demanded of you, but now we find this a vaguely immoral thinness.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  Like, you worked hard-
12. CHChristina
  Yeah
13. TNTrevor Noah
  ... to achieve the right thing. Okay. I, I, I hear what-
14. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah.
15. CHChristina
  Yeah
16. TNTrevor Noah
  ... I hear what you're saying.
17. CHChristina
  Yeah.
18. TNTrevor Noah
  It's funny because I, I don't know how it was for you growing up, but, so I have, I've had an interesting journey with, um, weight and how I perceive it, and fatness, et cetera, because I grew up in South Africa. Genuinely, growing up, this is such a weird thing to try and explain to people. In South Africa, you did not get made as much fun of if you were fat. Like, so, like a fat person, you'd just be like, I mean, I, I don't even remember if we had that many names, but I remember all the ones for skinny people was Sticks Manzanza. It w- [laughs]
19. CHChristina
  [laughs]
20. JTJia Tolentino
  [laughs]
21. TNTrevor Noah
  That was my favorite ones.
22. CHChristina
  [laughs]
23. TNTrevor Noah
  Uh, Sticks Manzanza, Ski- skinny Maneely. It wa- like, there were all these names where it was just like, you, you, you're a twig, you're thin.
24. CHChristina
  Yeah.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  You ... And it was a sign there of, of, um, a lack of having.
26. CHChristina
  Yeah.
27. TNTrevor Noah
  If you got married and you didn't gain weight, people would say that your marriage is not going well.
28. CHChristina
  [laughs]
29. TNTrevor Noah
  Literally, they'd be like, "Is your, is your wife not treating you well? Ai, mana, aha."
30. CHChristina
  Yeah.
8:08 – 10:42
Weight Loss Drugs for Children and Structural Causes
1. CHChristina
  it's funny that you mention the childhood stuff that it brings up because recently it was approved for children.
2. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, it was?
3. CHChristina
  Yeah. Uh-
4. JTJia Tolentino
  Right
5. CHChristina
  ... and there are parents who are making the decision-
6. TNTrevor Noah
  Ooh
7. CHChristina
  ... to give-
8. TNTrevor Noah
  Ooh, I don't know about that.
9. CHChristina
  I mean, Trevor, that's your inst-
10. TNTrevor Noah
  Ooh
11. CHChristina
  ... it's, like, very visceral. You're like, "Giving it to kids?" But like-
12. TNTrevor Noah
  Okay, I'll, I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. I do not think that these types of drugs should be approved for children. I personally believe that there are still a whole host of things that you can do to get that child ... Like, if, if you're giving them this drug, I'm assuming it's because their weight is really detrimental to their health.
13. CHChristina
  Okay.
14. TNTrevor Noah
  Otherwise, it's, it's weird. Like, you're just trying to make, like, a sexy kid or something.
15. CHChristina
  I mean-
16. TNTrevor Noah
  That's weird
17. CHChristina
  ... it's so crazy, but I meet m- mothers, a lot of older girls who are, like, preteens and teenagers, and they'll show you pictures of their daughter and be like, "Oh, but this one needs to lose weight." You know, like-
18. TNTrevor Noah
  What?
19. CHChristina
  ... mothers ... It, it's so encoded in our culture that there are mothers out there and fathers out there who just like-
20. TNTrevor Noah
  Damn
21. CHChristina
  ... "You need to lose weight." I mean, most people's r- relationship with food don't come from themselves. They often come from their parents and their families.
22. JTJia Tolentino
  It's, it's so interesting that all of this concern about what creates health for kids always comes down to food and weight.
23. CHChristina
  Yeah.
24. JTJia Tolentino
  Right? And it's like there's so much other stuff. It's like it's housing policy. It's like, it's, it's food stamp policy, right? It's all of these things.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
26. JTJia Tolentino
  And it's, like, funding for recess and, you know, and, and for, like, physical activities-
27. CHChristina
  Yeah
28. JTJia Tolentino
  ... and for, and for all these things. 'Cause, you know, there are, there are levers you can pull to change your body certainly during childhood and that, you know ... Like, it's, it's not to say that lifestyle and the, what you eat doesn't affect it, but, you know, the- there ... I talk to doctors that are, you know, their, the patients are, their kids are in food deserts, and-
29. CHChristina
  Yeah
30. JTJia Tolentino
  ... they have nobody that can take them outside.
10:42 – 12:19
Body Ideals in Nigeria and Fattening Rooms
1. TNTrevor Noah
  Was Nigeria the same? How, how, what's, what was weight like in Nigeria? Like, how does-
2. CHChristina
  It's really interesting. There is this cultural ... The body that's idealized is quite hard to get, so it's like-
3. TNTrevor Noah
  Yes
4. CHChristina
  ... big hips, tiny waist, and big boobs, and a big bum, which is pretty impossible to get, right? Most people don't have it naturally.
5. TNTrevor Noah
  Yes. Yeah.
6. CHChristina
  And you're not probably gonna have that after you have kids. Um, I was always considered a bit too skinny. Like, my grandma was like ... I remember she saying to me once, she was crying, and my mom was like, "Why are you crying?" She was just like, like she calls me by my name, Ama. She was just like, "Who's gonna marry Ama? She's got bones."
7. TNTrevor Noah
  [laughs]
8. CHChristina
  [laughs] That, you know, you know, if you actually go to West Africa in particular, you see a lot of body diversity.
9. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
10. CHChristina
  So you see, like-
11. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
12. CHChristina
  ... really tall women-
13. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
14. CHChristina
  ... really muscular women. And, like, in Nigeria, I think the most, the biggest indicator about how bodies naturally are is that does your tribe have a fattening room? Which is like before a woman gets married, she has to go to a room.
15. TNTrevor Noah
  You said a fattening room.
16. CHChristina
  They call it a fattening room.
17. TNTrevor Noah
  Where you have to become fat.
18. JTJia Tolentino
  Hell yeah. [laughs]
19. CHChristina
  Because the girls are just naturally quite muscular, especially in, like, in the southeast, quite muscular and lithe.
20. TNTrevor Noah
  Okay.
21. CHChristina
  You know what I mean. So you know what that means. Fatness is supposed to be good, a sign of fertility. But then again-
22. TNTrevor Noah
  Wait, how long do you stay in the room?
23. CHChristina
  F- till you get fat.
24. TNTrevor Noah
  I love this.
25. CHChristina
  Yeah. Oh, I don't know. I don't know about that.
26. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, wait. Okay.
27. CHChristina
  They kind of put a-
28. TNTrevor Noah
  Depends on how they're making you fat.
29. CHChristina
  Yeah.
30. TNTrevor Noah
  Is it like, is it like-
12:19 – 14:46
Jia's Reporting and the Swing Back from Body Positivity
1. TNTrevor Noah
  Jia, like when did you, when and why did you start writing about Ozempic? 'Cause you were one of the first people writing about this, you know, before it became the wave, before it became the trend.
2. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah.
3. TNTrevor Noah
  I remember there was a moment pre-Ozempic, it just wasn't a thing.
4. JTJia Tolentino
  Mm-hmm.
5. TNTrevor Noah
  And then there were whispers.
6. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah.
7. TNTrevor Noah
  And then all of a sudden you heard Elon Musk was on it, and you're like, "Wait, what's happening here?"
8. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah. Well, I think of... I kind of think of the Kardashians as, you know, the sort of weather vane for what the winds of sort of capital-
9. TNTrevor Noah
  Hilarious
10. JTJia Tolentino
  ... and, you know, like, deeply punitive, technologically based beauty standards.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  [laughs]
12. JTJia Tolentino
  You know, it's like you can literally see written upon their bodies what women all across the country are going to then do, you know, in this really kind of amazing, terrifying way. And so, you know, I, I think, I, it was, it was like that. No one had ever heard of it, and then, you know, I started to hear about there was this shot that was intended for treating, um-
13. TNTrevor Noah
  Diabetes
14. JTJia Tolentino
  ... chronic conditions-
15. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, yeah
16. JTJia Tolentino
  ... caused by type 2 diabetes that women in Hol- like, you know, some women in Hollywood were taking, and their bodies were suddenly visibly changing. And it was interesting to me to begin with because, you know, like I, I grew up in, you know, the '90s, the early 2000s in, in sort of very conservative Houston, Texas, like deep within this hegemonic, like white dominated, the age of sort of the only people that are beautiful are like Paris Hilton, you know, and Britney Spears, and that was the body prescribed. And then we had the sort of Obama-era, you know, grand democratization of culture, which included, you know, people started to have open dialogue about how you could be healthy at every size, which you can, right? And that all sorts of bodies are beautiful. And I always felt a little skeptical of the sort of Dove ad body positivity thing for reasons we can get into later. But I said, "Okay, finally, like we have reached a new era."
17. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
18. JTJia Tolentino
  Maybe it will unlock the sort of hold that white diet culture has had on America since the '20s, basically. And then this happened, and it was like, oh, oh no. [laughs]
19. TNTrevor Noah
  We're back.
20. JTJia Tolentino
  Oh no, we're swinging.
21. CHChristina
  Yeah.
22. JTJia Tolentino
  I mean, that was my in- initial interest. It was like I thought we had already changed, that we were gonna stay on this train of, of, you know, openness and, I don't know. And, and, and the sharp swing back, um, and what that meant for the way people talked and thought about beauty I thought was extremely interesting, and then so I just started tracking it.
14:46 – 20:01
Beauty vs. Health and a Moral Way to Talk About Weight
1. TNTrevor Noah
  So here's the thing I, I wonder, though. Do, do you think that utopia can ever exist? And y- you know, because I, I mean, like, I don't know, sometimes I- I'm a little simple in this thinking in that I go, we're still animals, and animals also judge each other based on some physical aspect-
2. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah
3. TNTrevor Noah
  ... or, and, and we're no different. I just think what happens to us that's particularly different is there are tastemakers that exist in different spheres who sort of like pull the levers-
4. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah
5. TNTrevor Noah
  ... to decide, like how we define where the, the, you know, the Overton window of beauty actually exists-
6. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah
7. TNTrevor Noah
  ... and where the one of health is. Do you think that our conversations these days lie in beauty, or do they lie in health, or is it people using health to masquerade their views on what they think beautiful is?
8. CHChristina
  Yeah. I think it's like the latter, right? And I think even if we were in this utopia where we accepted everyone's bodies, like I think The Economist did a piece about, talking about the fact that, like, women's salaries are pegged to what they weigh.
9. TNTrevor Noah
  Yes.
10. CHChristina
  And if you lo- if you lose a certain amount of weight, your salary goes up.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
12. CHChristina
  So it's just like the market forces, for whatever reason, we know the reasons, reward being skinny.
13. TNTrevor Noah
  And by the way, did you see the opposite is true for men?
14. CHChristina
  Interesting.
15. TNTrevor Noah
  The more a woman gains in weight, the more her salary goes down. And with men, the bigger they get, like the rounder ... I guess it's like because you look like King Richard or those vibes. [laughs]
16. CHChristina
  [laughs] Like Henry VIII.
17. TNTrevor Noah
  He's like the more like- Henry, yeah. It's like those vibes.
18. CHChristina
  Yeah.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  Like, "Graah, to all my subjects"
20. CHChristina
  Yeah.
21. TNTrevor Noah
  The more, like, bulbous you become, the, your money actually, like people don't penalize you at all. They're just like, "Yeah, this dude knows what he's talking about."
22. CHChristina
  Yeah.
23. TNTrevor Noah
  "He ate a pig that had an apple in its mouth."
24. CHChristina
  Look at that. Yeah. And I think for women it's always gonna be you are judged. That connection between morality-
25. TNTrevor Noah
  Yes
26. CHChristina
  ... and beauty and health, I think people just collapse it into one. They don't see them as different things, even if they use the language like, "Don't you wanna be healthy?"
27. TNTrevor Noah
  Right.
28. CHChristina
  You know, when they're, but they're t- saying to someone, "Don't you wanna lose weight?" And I think it's gonna be harder for women to escape that, unfortunately.
29. TNTrevor Noah
  So okay. Let, let me ask this question now. Um, is there a moral way for people to engage in conversations about weight, weight loss, health, and how it pertains to people? Like Jia, you know, you've done a lot of research in this. Christiane, I know you've talked about this for, for years. But like where do you think we find the, the ... Where do you think we find the sweet spot?
30. JTJia Tolentino
  I think it exists, and I think probably the people that are the best at it are fat people, you know? I think that there are a lot of people that have been, that have spent, you know, that have, that's been, like th- this cultural discursive work in the last 15 years to establish a whole vocabulary for how we could be talking about these things, right? And it, and it's incredibly difficult in reporting this piece even and in talking to people, like I think that the fear of fat and the bias against it is, it would come out quite casually. I'm sure it's built into me in some way, you know, in the way that I think about it. But I think that there is a way to get some basic facts on the table, right?
20:01 – 25:50
How GLP-1 Drugs Work and What They Reveal About Compulsion
1. TNTrevor Noah
  Let's, let's talk a little bit about the drugs themselves, like the actual way that the drugs work. I, I was lucky. I, I had a conversation with, um, the CEO of Eli Lilly and, and some of the scientists who work there.
2. JTJia Tolentino
  Mm.
3. TNTrevor Noah
  'Cause I wanted to understand-
4. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah
5. TNTrevor Noah
  ... what is this thing. So I'll, I'll break it down. And Jia, I know you're the expert, so please jump in. A few decades ago, there was a scientist who discovered that there was a, essentially a hormone that was released into your body that told your body you were full, right? And they wanted to study what this, this, this thing was. GLP-1 they called it. 'Cause they never called it easy things like Patrick, which they should-
6. JTJia Tolentino
  [laughs]
7. TNTrevor Noah
  ... 'cause then it would help us. If scientists were just like, "We're gonna call this Patrick," then we all know what Patrick is. But anyway, scientists found GLP-1. This is something that makes your body feel full, makes you feel satisfied, I think is a, is a more important word. And they wanted to study it, but they couldn't. They're like, "All right, how do we figure it out?" They found a lizard. They always find a lizard. And they're like, "We can reproduce this." You fast-forward, they realize that this drug can help people who have diabetes.
8. JTJia Tolentino
  Mm-hmm.
9. TNTrevor Noah
  Then they're like, "Okay, this is for diabetes. This is for diabetes." But then someone goes, "Wait a minute, it's not just diabetes. People are losing weight."
10. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  And they're like, "Huh." And then like all drug companies, the same way they did with Viagra, they were like, "We're trying to help people with their blood pressure."
12. JTJia Tolentino
  [laughs]
13. TNTrevor Noah
  And they're like, "Have you noticed that all these people are getting erections?"
14. JTJia Tolentino
  [laughs]
15. TNTrevor Noah
  And they're like, "Everyone, stop. We don't give a shit about blood pressure. We've just struck gold." But what I found most fascinating about this is to what you said, Christiana, when we started the conversation. If we have the conversation about weight loss, I feel like we're missing something bigger that we're discovering right now, and these drugs are helping us understand something about self-control-
16. CHChristina
  Yeah
17. TNTrevor Noah
  ... and how it has been robbed from us. Because people take Ozempic, Zep or whatever, right? The first thing they do is they don't eat as much. We knew that would happen.
18. CHChristina
  Yeah.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  Okay, fine, it's working. But then people go, "Oh, I don't drink alcohol the same way anymore."
20. CHChristina
  Yeah.
21. TNTrevor Noah
  "Uh, I don't watch as much TV. I don't use social media. I'm not even on my phone as much."
22. CHChristina
  Yeah.
23. TNTrevor Noah
  "I don't gamble as much." And you're just like, wait, wait, wait, wait. What is hap-
24. CHChristina
  Compulsive shopping.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
26. CHChristina
  I, I read about that.
27. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
28. CHChristina
  Someone who stopped them compulsive shopping.
29. TNTrevor Noah
  And so, you know, I almost wonder if in discovering this solution, have we now exposed all of the poisonous problems that society has unleashed upon itself?
30. CHChristina
  Yeah.
25:50 – 28:04
Corporations, Individual Blame and Willpower
1. TNTrevor Noah
  I, I think, I think something we, we, we also have to consider is this: One of my biggest beefs is, is that corporations have found ways to create messaging that tricks people into-
2. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah
3. TNTrevor Noah
  ... making the corporation's problem their problem.
4. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah.
5. TNTrevor Noah
  In the same way oil companies scammed us into thinking that recycling was our job, right?
6. JTJia Tolentino
  Mm-hmm.
7. TNTrevor Noah
  And they make it about individuals.
8. JTJia Tolentino
  Right. Yeah.
9. TNTrevor Noah
  "You need to recycle."
10. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  No. No, no, no. Let me tell you something. Recycling is not our job.
12. JTJia Tolentino
  Mm.
13. TNTrevor Noah
  The job is to not make the thing in the first place. We take for granted how many times, and we ignore how many times we get tricked-
14. JTJia Tolentino
  Mm
15. TNTrevor Noah
  ... into believing that it's us, and I think the same thing has happened with food and indulgence in America and in the rest of the world.
16. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah.
17. TNTrevor Noah
  Is where, you know, to your point, Jia, is like people have been made to feel guilty about their appetites and about their indulgence and about their ... And then we create this world where we now fight with each other. Why are you letting your kid eat so much? Well, I can't ... Well, it's my child. It's their appetite.
18. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  I don't wanna stop. I don't wanna make them guilty. And no one seems to be ask- not no one, but, like, I think sometimes we forget to ask the question, like, wait, w- why is it impossible for your chil- your child to stop eating those chips? If we live in a society where we blame people for the addiction catching them but don't ask who's imposing the addiction upon them, then I feel like we're playing a game of Whac-A-Mole, telling everybody in society-
20. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah
21. TNTrevor Noah
  ... that they need to be better, when in fact we're ignoring the fact that ... You know?
22. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah, for sure.
23. TNTrevor Noah
  These Ozempic-type drugs, as much as we're focusing on them as the conversation, I feel like they've exposed this underbelly of addiction that we've-
24. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah
25. TNTrevor Noah
  ... all allowed.
26. CHChristina
  Yeah. I think, Trevor, what you're getting at is that we've always thought all of these things are just a question of willpower.
27. TNTrevor Noah
  Yes.
28. CHChristina
  And it's not about-
29. TNTrevor Noah
  And, and responsibility
30. CHChristina
  And Jia, I think your piece touches on that as well.
28:04 – 30:21
Class Divides and the Pressure to Conform
1. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, yeah. So let, so let's talk a little bit about, about, um, you know, if we move beyond appetites per se and, and we, we, we come back to the, the world of these drugs, what they're doing and, and how people are, are, are using them. Have we now entered a new world, you know, Jia, to what you're saying, where this will become another instance of the haves being able to escape another ill in society? There's, there's a ... It's almost like we've put a price on people being able to evade this thing, this net of addiction that has been cast upon everybody.
2. CHChristina
  Also, I think, Jia, just to, to hop in, it's like we're talking about Ozempic so much because people lose weight, and we think-
3. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
4. CHChristina
  ... losing weight is the better thing to do. And now it means that there'll be a class of people that can do that and-
5. TNTrevor Noah
  Yes
6. CHChristina
  ... not have to go through the cruelty of fatphobia, and it's gonna be the people with money that can perhaps escape that everyday cruelty, and then the people that don't can't do that.
7. JTJia Tolentino
  Well, yeah. I think one of the things that does seem maybe meaningfully new about this is that the beauty standards of the last decade seem to me to be this really kind of insidious arms race between, like, digital enhancement and then technological alteration-
8. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
9. JTJia Tolentino
  ... to match digital enhancement, and then you digitally enhance more and then use technology to further sort of shape, inject-
10. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, yeah
11. JTJia Tolentino
  ... discipline, whatever. Like, the thing that really scares me is the idea that an unaltered body or face is aberrant or deviant and sort of-
12. TNTrevor Noah
  Hmm
13. JTJia Tolentino
  ... unacceptable. That ... Like, that's the thing that I find, um, really, like, existentially terrifying.
14. TNTrevor Noah
  Damn. Yeah, you-
15. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah
16. TNTrevor Noah
  ... it's almost like, um, in those, um, you know, when you watch those cyberpunk future movies-
17. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah
18. TNTrevor Noah
  ... uh, where, like, people are judged because they don't have cybernetics now, you know?
19. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah.
20. TNTrevor Noah
  So everyone has ... Yeah, and that's, that's an interesting way you've just put it now. It becomes judgment because, like, well, why aren't you making-
21. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah
22. TNTrevor Noah
  ... yourself better?
23. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah. And I think plenty of people who are fat and healthy and perfectly happy in their lives are, are, are now hit with this sort of unbearable wave of, like, well, why don't you just get the little jab, you know?
24. CHChristina
  Yeah.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  Hmm. 'Cause now it seems like you're actively making a choice to not be healthy or to want-
26. JTJia Tolentino
  Like, why, why wouldn't you con-
27. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
28. JTJia Tolentino
  ... why wouldn't you conform, right? Like, it's, it's-
30:21 – 34:09
Celebrity Weight Changes, Body Positivity and Body Neutrality
1. TNTrevor Noah
  So h- here's a question I do have. I'm gonna throw a few things at you, and everybody-
2. JTJia Tolentino
  Go for it
3. TNTrevor Noah
  ... trigger warning. Everybody-
4. JTJia Tolentino
  Safe space
5. TNTrevor Noah
  ... trigger warning, every- J- Jia, trigger warning. And feel free to plead the fifth. No one needs to speak.
6. JTJia Tolentino
  Okay.
7. TNTrevor Noah
  I don't wish to bring anybody down with me, all right? I'm the pilot who will tell you to jump out of the plane before I take it on this dive. So- Let's, let's, let's get, let's get messy with a few of these, of these moments in these conversations. Sometimes it feels, and I'm speaking for people and, 'cause I generally don't think I struggle with this as much myself, but I do know that there's a little inconsistency or, or what people perceive as a, as a flipping of a narrative when a celebrity ... Let's just deal with celebrities. Celebrities will come out, they go, "I love my body. My body's great." They build fans based on that body and that body being great. Fans are like, "We love your body. Your body's great. We're all with you." And then the celebrity pops out, like after six months they've just disappeared-
8. CHChristina
  Yeah
9. TNTrevor Noah
  ... and they come back and they've got a completely new body, and then they're like, "Hey, I've got a new body."
10. CHChristina
  Yeah.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  And then people are like, "Yo, what the ... Wait, what, what just, what just happened here?" And they're like, "No, I love this body because actually I wasn't healthy and I wasn't happy and my knees were hurting me," whatever it might be. And then they get a m- a level of backlash from the people that were body positive who are now sort of anti-body positive because now their-
12. CHChristina
  Yeah
13. TNTrevor Noah
  ... body's gone a different way. D- does this make sense? And it almost feels like i- in the same way everything else in society has become like a, a cult, it's like it sometimes feels like we are not working towards a place where people can be the way they wish to be. We're working to a place where people can be the way we wish them to be, and then if they deviate from that, we kick them out. Do you get what I'm saying? Like look at how many people were angry at Adele for losing weight.
14. CHChristina
  Yeah.
15. TNTrevor Noah
  Angry at her. Jennifer Hudson, angry at her.
16. CHChristina
  For sure.
17. TNTrevor Noah
  Do you know what I mean?
18. CHChristina
  I, I, you know, not to speak on behalf of fat people or fat women at all, but I think there's s- so little imagery of women that had perhaps Adele's old body or Jennifer Hudson's old body. There was something very comforting for people to see a fat woman who's thriving and have this incredible career.
19. TNTrevor Noah
  Right.
20. CHChristina
  Um, and there's like this disappointment or resentment when that celebrity then changes their body. I, I speculate some of that.
21. JTJia Tolentino
  Right. I, I mean, I, I mentioned earlier like the, the whole Dove, every, you know, everyone is beautiful, like the big- the, the beginning of the sort of corporatized body pos- positivity movement. It, it seemed dangerous to me immediately because it seemed like, no, like actually beauty is this sort of a- arbitrary assignation based on people's conformity to market forces.
22. CHChristina
  Yeah.
23. JTJia Tolentino
  It's not like a, it's not like a spiritual moral good. Like it was this whole thing that was really important to say that everyone was beautiful, as if to say everyone is good. And it was like, no, no, no, everyone is good and worthy, but perhaps that has nothing to do with beauty.
24. TNTrevor Noah
  Oh, wow.
25. CHChristina
  Yeah.
26. TNTrevor Noah
  That's fascinating.
27. CHChristina
  Yeah.
28. JTJia Tolentino
  And it seemed to me like perhaps it is just much more important to say like everyone is worthy and beauty is not as important as we ever thought it was at all. Like it's just this thing, right?
29. TNTrevor Noah
  To, to dumb that down, in a way it's, it's almost like what you're saying is ...
30. JTJia Tolentino
  It's body neutrality, yeah.
34:09 – 38:12
Functional Health Over Weight: The LeBron Example
1. JTJia Tolentino
  so convoluted.
2. TNTrevor Noah
  So, so here, okay. I'll s-
3. CHChristina
  So I just wanted to throw Tressie in.
4. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah. Oh, definitely.
5. CHChristina
  Tressie McMillan Cottom, brilliant sociologist. She talks about structural ugliness, right?
6. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
7. CHChristina
  This, the, the thing about-
8. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
9. CHChristina
  ... like how beauty is like this structural concept.
10. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
11. CHChristina
  And like even though you can feel beautiful on an individual level, structurally if you are dark skin, fat, and your body-
12. TNTrevor Noah
  Right. Right, right
13. CHChristina
  ... size, you are seen as ugly. And I think what Ozempic is getting at is just like it's this cure to that structural ugliness of weight.
14. TNTrevor Noah
  That's interesting.
15. JTJia Tolentino
  Right.
16. CHChristina
  And that's what a lot of thinkers are trying to resist, that like why have we made being bigger structurally ugly?
17. TNTrevor Noah
  So, you know, I ... So there's two things. Okay. First of all, I think we shouldn't forget, and this is why it's hard to have these conversations in society, I believe, because people weaponize certain parts of conversations-
18. CHChristina
  Yeah
19. TNTrevor Noah
  ... and use it as a cudgel against others. Let's take it to like athletes. LeBron James had to lose a lot of weight, or he decided rather.
20. CHChristina
  Yeah.
21. TNTrevor Noah
  LeBron James decided to lose a lot of weight. LeBron said, "If I want my knees to take the pounding that they're gonna take, me jumping, me, it is easier if I carry less weight. It is easier for me to run across a court if I carry less weight." I think the thing we shouldn't take for granted is, is like I almost wish there was a world where we could, we could all go into good, uh, good faith conversation land.
22. CHChristina
  Yeah.
23. TNTrevor Noah
  You know, where we can talk about health, but it not be used against somebody else in like a shitty way.
24. CHChristina
  Yeah.
25. TNTrevor Noah
  A doctor can say, "Hey, you do wanna try and, and work out as much as possible 'cause it's good for your heart." But then someone's not gonna-
26. CHChristina
  Yeah
27. TNTrevor Noah
  ... point to someone and go like, "You see? You piece of trash."
28. CHChristina
  Yeah.
29. TNTrevor Noah
  But it is important for people to know like the lifting of weights, just like, just like resistance training has been shown to be one of the most important factors in longevity. And not, I'm not saying living long, I'm saying living as a functional person-
30. CHChristina
  Yeah
38:12 – 40:51
Visible Fatness, Judgment and Rising Weight Bias
1. TNTrevor Noah
  what I, you know what I also realize as we're speaking about this? Whether we like to admit it or not, humans are generally judgmental, right? We hold and cast judgments upon other people because it either makes us feel like we are doing well-
2. CHChristina
  Yeah
3. TNTrevor Noah
  ... or it makes us, whatever it is, there's reasons we do it, right? I think we shouldn't ever take for granted the fact that fatness is one of the few things that somebody can see on you that tells them something about you in some way, shape, or form. It, you don't know what it's telling you, but you can see it.
4. CHChristina
  Yeah.
5. TNTrevor Noah
  But, like, think of it this way. If somebody has a, has a gambling problem or likes gambling or y- whichever way you wanna put it, that pers- you can't tell.
6. CHChristina
  Mm-hmm.
7. TNTrevor Noah
  If somebody drinks a lot of alcohol, is addicted to alcohol, or likes alcohol, drinks on occasion, you can't tell. Do you get what I'm saying?
8. CHChristina
  Yeah.
9. TNTrevor Noah
  And I think what's, what's strange about fatness is it is one of the few things where people from far can just assume many things about you because they can, like, sort of see it from the outside.
10. CHChristina
  And, and not just make judgments, but express those judgments.
11. TNTrevor Noah
  Yes.
12. CHChristina
  But I think with fat people, we're very prescriptive.
13. TNTrevor Noah
  We are.
14. CHChristina
  Like, and sometimes it's the-
15. JTJia Tolentino
  Well, and we see that body as, like, this is a sign of a problem.
16. CHChristina
  Yeah. Uh, be like, "Are you sure you want to eat that?" is a thing said to people who are-
17. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
18. CHChristina
  ... fat or-
19. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
20. CHChristina
  ... like, I, I saw a TikTok. A woman was, like, being fat and exercising, as people on the street going, "Go you, I'm so proud of you." And she's like, "I'm just on a run." [laughs]
21. TNTrevor Noah
  [laughs]
22. JTJia Tolentino
  [laughs]
23. CHChristina
  Like, why do you feel this need to, like, encourage me? The people trying to be nice, but it, like, what's under that-
24. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah, yeah
25. CHChristina
  ... is like you're someone that should be pitied and-
26. TNTrevor Noah
  Yes
27. CHChristina
  ... needs my encouragement-
28. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
29. CHChristina
  ... in a way that's kind of infantilizing you. Um, and I think that's the thing about fatphobia. We just feel like we can say anything to people who are fat, you know?
30. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
40:51 – 48:01
What Now: Long-Term Unknowns, Possible Shutdown and Politics
1. TNTrevor Noah
  I, look, I, I think, I think, you know, a- as, as we said in the beginning of this conversation, this feels like a, an inflection point and a moment where the conversations we have going forward are going to continuously evolve because now there's been a new agent that's been introduced.
2. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah.
3. TNTrevor Noah
  I feel like we're at, we're at that point now with these Ozempic-
4. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah
5. TNTrevor Noah
  ... type drugs, is they're now making us ask questions that go far beyond the questions that we've sort of been comfortable living in for a while.
6. JTJia Tolentino
  Mm-hmm.
7. TNTrevor Noah
  And those questions are, what is health? Are we trying to promote health, or are we trying to promote our moral superiority upon other human beings?
8. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah.
9. TNTrevor Noah
  Are we trying to, you know, run around shaming people because it makes us feel better? Why do we even feel, as you said, Christiana-
10. JTJia Tolentino
  Yeah
11. TNTrevor Noah
  ... that we have the right to do these things? And then with children, what does it mean for the future? 'Cause again, the big thing I think we also have to include in this is we don't know what the very long-term effects of these drugs are-
12. JTJia Tolentino
  No
13. TNTrevor Noah
  ... because they're so new. I mean, if you think about mass adoption for a long period of time for people who haven't had insulin issues, for people who don't have diabetes, we don't know. And I think that's something people always have to be careful of is realizing that we don't know. What we do know is how we can treat people today. And so, um, Jia, what now from your perspective? I'll break it down in two parts. What, what do you think we're going to see now? And then what would you hope we would see now that, that, that maybe we wouldn't and maybe we will?
14. JTJia Tolentino
  What I thought originally about the best case sort of cultural effect of this You know, the fact that this technology exists could be is that we could kind of remove the moral valences from every part of this conversation possible, right? That we could understand that metabolism and the hormonal preset that leads your body to be a certain weight and the, that all of it is much more sort of arbitrary and, and, and kind of morally neutral. And, and like you said, Christiane, like a, a sign of just all of the other things environmentally that you're swimming in. Like, I think that is the best thing that something like Ozempic can do is just, is lead people to the understanding that if you can radically change people's relationship to fullness by, by one injection-
15. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm-hmm
16. JTJia Tolentino
  ... then maybe it wasn't something that everyone should have been judging people.
17. TNTrevor Noah
  Mm.
18. CHChristina
  Yeah.
19. JTJia Tolentino
  You know? Then, then very clearly-
20. TNTrevor Noah
  Damn
21. JTJia Tolentino
  ... it's not something that-
22. CHChristina
  Yeah.
23. TNTrevor Noah
  Damn
24. JTJia Tolentino
  ... that, that deserved decades of moral, a century, a, like, a full century of, of moral condemnation-
25. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah
26. JTJia Tolentino
  ... by, like, the entire beauty industry.
27. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
28. JTJia Tolentino
  Right? Of course, it doesn't seem to have led there at all, and I think, um... I mean, I have no real predictions other than the fact that, you know, one thing about GLP-1 drugs is you, in the vast majority of cases, as soon as you stop taking them, your, the, your body reverts to how it was before.
29. TNTrevor Noah
  Yeah.
30. JTJia Tolentino
  So the, the weight loss lasts as long as you take them, basically.