The Trad Wife Paradox with Anne Helen Petersen! - What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

1. 0:00 – 2:39

   Trevor’s “Homemade KFC” story and why this topic feels like a conversational landmine

   1. TNTrevor Noah0:00

      My mom is the antithesis of trad anything. I remember one day I said to my mom, "Can we get some KFC?" And then my mom was like, "We can't afford KFC." Then my mom said, "You know what, honey, I'm gonna make you KFC." And I was like, "What? You can make KFC?" She's like, "I can make KFC." I was like, "That's not possible." I was like, "If, if, if people could make KFC, everyone would make KFC."

   2. CHChristiana0:20

      [laughs]

   3. TNTrevor Noah0:21

      "You're telling me KFC doesn't only come from the Colonel? How do you have the secret?"

   4. CHChristiana0:25

      [laughs]

   5. TNTrevor Noah0:25

      And went into the kitchen, and then she made, and then she fried it, and then we, then I was like, "Wow, my mom made KFC."

   6. CHChristiana0:31

      [laughs]

   7. TNTrevor Noah0:31

      And I'll never, and I'll never forget, I ate it, and then I, I looked at her and I was like, "This shit is not KFC."

   8. CHChristiana0:38

      [laughs]

   9. TNTrevor Noah0:39

      Some of my issues that I deal with in therapy are probably 'cause of that moment. You know when they say you-

   10. CHChristiana0:44

       [laughs]

   11. TNTrevor Noah0:44

       ... like, you lose trust in your parents? I looked at this woman and I was like, "W- " I was like, "Why would you lie to me? Why would you say you can make KFC when you can't make KFC?" And then she looked at me, and then, like, and then I started doubting myself 'cause I was like, "Why would you think your mother can make KFC?"

   12. CHChristiana1:00

       [laughs]

   13. TNTrevor Noah1:00

       "If she could make KFC, she would've opened KFC." [upbeat music] This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. [upbeat music] All right. This is gonna be a fun one.

   14. CHChristiana1:20

       I know. [laughs]

   15. TNTrevor Noah1:22

       This is, this is one of those w- uh, what I call, like, landmine conversations.

   16. CHChristiana1:26

       Yes.

   17. TNTrevor Noah1:26

       Because everything you say can and will be used against you [laughs] in a court of law. But it's, but it's probably, it's probably my favorite type of conversation to have, like, my, my favorite type of topic because when you, when you say tradwife, so I've been saying that to everyone. I, I, you know, my friends will be like, "Oh, what are you doing on the podcast?"

   18. CHChristiana1:45

       Mm-hmm.

   19. TNTrevor Noah1:45

       I say, "We're gonna be talking about tradwives." Some people don't know what it is at all, and then I have to explain it. I go, "Trad, traditional wife." And then as soon as I describe the videos, everyone knows what I'm talking about.

   20. CHChristiana1:57

       Oh, yeah.

   21. TNTrevor Noah1:57

       I say, "It's, you know, these women who are, they're dressed in, like, really old school style or dressed up vibes, but then they're cooking, they're preparing, like, everything from scratch." And then everyone's like, "Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah." And then they start listing off their favorite ones and, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm excited to talk about it because, uh, I don't know what you're gonna say.

   22. CHChristiana2:17

       Oh, you, you don't even have a feeling about where I land?

   23. TNTrevor Noah2:19

       No, I, no, I'll be honest with you.

   24. CHChristiana2:21

       Yeah.

   25. TNTrevor Noah2:21

       I don't, I don't. Because this is one of those topics where you could go either way.

   26. CHChristiana2:24

       I'm, I'm nervous 'cause I, I'm afraid to offend people.

   27. TNTrevor Noah2:27

       Oh.

   28. CHChristiana2:27

       Which I never am, like, in life. [laughs] So I couldn't be a tradwife-

   29. TNTrevor Noah2:31

       Oh

   30. CHChristiana2:31

       ... 'cause I'm rude.
2. 2:39 – 4:09

   Christiana’s background: church culture, ‘head of household,’ and autonomy vs victim/villain framing

   1. TNTrevor Noah2:39

      Wait, wait, so do you think some of the people in your life are tradwives?

   2. CHChristiana2:43

      I am-

   3. TNTrevor Noah2:43

      Like, are they, no, but are they actually tradwives, or do you think they have traits that you would associate with a tradwife?

   4. CHChristiana2:48

      I think they have a lot of the traits.

   5. TNTrevor Noah2:49

      Yeah.

   6. CHChristiana2:50

      I think they are living, oh, my God, you're gonna get me in trouble 'cause now my friends-

   7. TNTrevor Noah2:54

      No. No, I just wanna know. No.

   8. CHChristiana2:55

      [laughs]

   9. TNTrevor Noah2:55

      Okay, so I, I wanna know how many of those traits you see in people before you say they are or are not a trad.

   10. CHChristiana3:02

       I know. I know. I'm, Trevor, can you see how careful I'm being?

   11. TNTrevor Noah3:04

       I can see. I've never seen you like this, by the way.

   12. CHChristiana3:06

       [laughs] I know. That's why I'm like, it's, I wanted to do the conversation, but I've been like, "Oh, God. I don't wanna." Okay, so I think there are the traits.

   13. TNTrevor Noah3:14

       Yeah.

   14. CHChristiana3:14

       But they wouldn't necessarily embrace the label.

   15. TNTrevor Noah3:17

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   16. CHChristiana3:17

       And then because, you know, I grew up very churchy and very Christian.

   17. TNTrevor Noah3:20

       Yeah.

   18. CHChristiana3:20

       I know people who are like, "Straight up, man is the head of the household."

   19. TNTrevor Noah3:24

       Right.

   20. CHChristiana3:24

       "I'm here to honor him and honor God and raise my children."

   21. TNTrevor Noah3:27

       That all sounds good to me. That all sounds good to me.

   22. CHChristiana3:28

       [laughs]

   23. TNTrevor Noah3:28

       Keep going. Keep going.

   24. CHChristiana3:30

       Raise my children.

   25. TNTrevor Noah3:31

       This is fantastic. Keep going.

   26. CHChristiana3:32

       They call their husband, like, my mom actually used to call my dad my lord and master to piss off my grandmother. That's a family fact.

   27. TNTrevor Noah3:37

       Oh, okay.

   28. CHChristiana3:38

       Like, so I-

   29. TNTrevor Noah3:38

       To piss off your, your, I mean-

   30. CHChristiana3:40

       Yeah, yeah, ironically, but, like, you know, I, I, especially being, like, of African descent, even the women who are not, who have jobs and all of that embody the tradwife thing. You know, they'd be like, "My husband is the head of the household." That's the world I come from.
3. 4:09 – 7:09

   What counts as a tradwife today? Monetized domesticity and the contradiction at the center

   1. TNTrevor Noah4:09

      How, how far do you think you are away from tradwife, or how close do you think you are to tradwife?

   2. CHChristiana4:14

      Do you know what? It's so funny. I have a friend who is, like, the opposite of a tradwife, so she-

   3. TNTrevor Noah4:19

      What does that, what, what does that mean?

   4. CHChristiana4:20

      She's not traditional and she's not a wife. [laughs]

   5. TNTrevor Noah4:24

      [laughs] But then, but then how are you a tradwife?

   6. CHChristiana4:26

      Well, she's like, she, she doesn't even have any of, like, the labels. Like, she, she, she's child-free.

   7. TNTrevor Noah4:31

      Okay.

   8. CHChristiana4:31

      She's child-free by choice.

   9. TNTrevor Noah4:32

      Okay.

   10. CHChristiana4:33

       She speaks her mind.

   11. TNTrevor Noah4:35

       Yes.

   12. CHChristiana4:35

       And she, she comes from a long line of matriarchs.

   13. TNTrevor Noah4:37

       Okay.

   14. CHChristiana4:37

       She came round, this is when I was pregnant with Obi, she came by the apartment, and I was doing something, and I did something for Lewis. And she was like, "So is this how you keep a man?" And I was like-

   15. TNTrevor Noah4:45

       Wow

   16. CHChristiana4:45

       ... "What are you talking about?" She was like, "You're being so nice and girly."

   17. TNTrevor Noah4:49

       Wow.

   18. CHChristiana4:49

       And I'm like, "I'm not nice to him," 'cause I think I'm a mean wife, right? And she was like, "No, you're being, I've never seen this side of you." So it was, it was a m- and I, I think about that a lot because-

   19. TNTrevor Noah4:58

       What if, what if you're secretly a tradwife and you don't know it?

   20. CHChristiana5:00

       I don't cook, so I think that takes me out of the equation.

   21. TNTrevor Noah5:04

       It is one of the biggest factors.

   22. CHChristiana5:05

       Yeah, I, and I don't cook.

   23. TNTrevor Noah5:05

       It's, and it's not just cooking. It's cooking, like, everything from scratch.

   24. CHChristiana5:10

       Yeah, no.

   25. TNTrevor Noah5:10

       Like, from scratch scratch.

   26. CHChristiana5:11

       Yeah. Obi says to me, "Mommy, what are we gonna order tonight?"

   27. TNTrevor Noah5:15

       [laughs]

   28. CHChristiana5:16

       [laughs] And then he goes, "Delivery." And my mom is like, "You have ruined this child."

   29. TNTrevor Noah5:20

       Oh, man.

   30. CHChristiana5:20

       So, like, I don't cook 'cause I find it very laborious.
4. 7:09 – 11:09

   Anne Helen Petersen introduces the ‘buckets’ of tradwives and the Ballerina Farm archetype

   1. APAnne Helen Petersen7:09

      Yeah. You know, well, first of all, I'm glad that we're coming into this with the ambivalence that we have, right? Like, there is so much contradiction. There is so much complexity, and I think I often have conversations with people who are like, "Oh, obviously these women are evil," right? Or are like, "They're the, the, the..." You know, or, "They're ideal," right?

   2. TNTrevor Noah7:30

      Yeah, yeah.

   3. APAnne Helen Petersen7:30

      Yeah. So there's just not a lot of in between. So the way I think of it is there's actually, like, these bigger buckets of tradwives that we can think about. [laughs] Buckets of tradwives. [laughs] There are, I think, the, like, the OGs, which are absolutely women who are deeply, deeply invested in either evangelical Christianity and its vision specifically of the, the future of America.

   4. TNTrevor Noah7:53

      Uh-huh.

   5. APAnne Helen Petersen7:54

      And I would also put a little caveat on there and say, like, white evangelical Christianity. And, and there, some Mormons are kind of in that bucket, so-

   6. TNTrevor Noah8:04

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

   7. APAnne Helen Petersen8:04

      ... uh, a very famous tradwife who has never ever claimed the, the moniker tradwife is Ballerina Farm, who has been in the news a lot lately. Ballerina Farm is the moniker, the handle for an Instagram account that is run by this woman named Hannah. She is married. She was a ballerina, thence, thus the ballerina part, but she was married to, or she is married to the son of the founder of JetBlue Airlines.

   8. TNTrevor Noah8:32

      Oh.

   9. APAnne Helen Petersen8:32

      And they're Mormon, and they have, I believe, eight kids. She also is a pageant queen and recently competed in, it's like Mrs. America- Yeah, it was Mrs. America ... when you're married. Yeah. Oh. Mrs. America. Mrs. America. Uh, very shortly after giving birth to her most recent kid. But so she, like, the aesthetic there is very aspirational. And-

   10. TNTrevor Noah8:55

       That's so, so Ballerina Farm. So I've gone, I've gone on a deep dive in the... Like, my Instagram algorithm is trash now.

   11. APAnne Helen Petersen9:02

       [laughs]

   12. TNTrevor Noah9:02

       My TikTok algorithm. I just need to start brand-new accounts, just so you know.

   13. APAnne Helen Petersen9:06

       Yeah. [laughs]

   14. TNTrevor Noah9:06

       Because everything that I've now, like, researched for this conversation has led me down a deep pu- Now all my, all my Explore page is, is, like, random white women in the middle of nowhere milking a cow for their children's breakfast cereal. [laughs]

   15. APAnne Helen Petersen9:22

       Yeah, or, like, coming to... Like, they're putting together, like, their homeschool-

   16. TNTrevor Noah9:26

       Yes, yes

   17. APAnne Helen Petersen9:27

       ... elements for, like, 10 kids.

   18. TNTrevor Noah9:30

       Yes.

   19. APAnne Helen Petersen9:30

       And then there are people who just wanna live like a '50s housewife. Mm. And that is different, right? Like, they do not have the religious component. They do not see this as God's plan for the world. They are not necessarily invested in the more, like, white supremacy components of this. But they would like to spend all of their time doing things in the domestic sphere. So that includes homesteading, right?

   20. TNTrevor Noah9:53

       Yeah.

   21. APAnne Helen Petersen9:53

       And, like, the, the aesthetic of homesteading that's very popular. That includes not working for pay, right?

   22. TNTrevor Noah9:59

       Uh-huh.

   23. APAnne Helen Petersen9:59

       Um, and I think that that is the part that people are actually attracted to who, somehow, who find themselves fascinated by these accounts and find themselves continually going back or, like, "Why do I keep following Ballerina Farm if her life is so distant from mine?"

   24. TNTrevor Noah10:18

       Yeah.

   25. APAnne Helen Petersen10:19

       It's because they think there is some sort of fantasy about, "Well, what if I didn't have to do all of the things all of the time? What if I got to focus on these parts of being a mother, of being a partner, of being a person in the world that felt fulfilling to me?" So that's, that's a different sort, though. And also, like, the stay-at-home girlfriends, which are oftentimes linked into or put into this bucket.

   26. TNTrevor Noah10:43

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   27. APAnne Helen Petersen10:43

       People who, like, they tape for TikTok especially, like, "Here is my life as a stay-at-home girlfriend," and it's, like, making chia smoothies-

   28. TNTrevor Noah10:53

       [laughs]

   29. APAnne Helen Petersen10:54

       [laughs] ... and, like, doing Pilates. And they're not even married. Like, a tradwife would die if they were associated with these stay-at-home girlfriends. Like, those women are living in sin. Like, they are not, they do not belong in the same-

   30. TNTrevor Noah11:07

       Yeah
5. 11:09 – 14:11

   From ‘Stepford’ suspicion to fantasy: why the aesthetic can feel liberating

   1. TNTrevor Noah11:09

      I, so, okay. So I'll, I'll be honest. I've been on a, I've been on a rollercoaster of emotions here digging into the world of, I'm gonna call it tradism. You have-

   2. APAnne Helen Petersen11:19

      [laughs]

   3. TNTrevor Noah11:20

      Because, like, when I, when I first watched the videos, I, my first thought was, "This is evil in some way, shape, or form." And the reason I thought that-

   4. APAnne Helen Petersen11:27

      Mm

   5. TNTrevor Noah11:27

      ... is, is because of, uh, I guess, like, my indoctrination. Like, what I've seen in movies and things. So it's these videos. You know, it's a static shot. It's a woman who's dressed impeccably but, like, really made up in a kitchen.

   6. APAnne Helen Petersen11:38

      Yeah.

   7. TNTrevor Noah11:39

      It has a Stepwood, Stepford Wives-

   8. APAnne Helen Petersen11:41

      Yeah

   9. TNTrevor Noah11:41

      ... vibe to it, you know? So it's like-

   10. APAnne Helen Petersen11:42

       Yeah

   11. TNTrevor Noah11:42

       ... "Every morning, I try to make cereal for my children."

   12. APAnne Helen Petersen11:46

       [laughs] From scratch.

   13. TNTrevor Noah11:47

       "Granola made from scratch. I pick the almonds from the soil." And you watch this, and you're like, "Oh, this is evil. This is the devil. This is-" But then when I, when I like, you know, like Ballerina Farms and, and I watched, I watched a few more videos, I watched a few more videos, then I was like, "Hmm. Do I hate this idea?" And I, I, I, I'll tell you, I'll tell you where I'm coming from, 'cause I see your, your side eye already, Christiana.

   14. CHChristiana12:08

       [laughs]

   15. TNTrevor Noah12:09

       I, I'm not saying, do I hate this idea or do I like it as a man, I'm not saying that. What, what, what I mean is there wa- there was something strangely liberating in the idea of somebody just living a simple life-

   16. CHChristiana12:23

       Mm-hmm

   17. TNTrevor Noah12:24

       ... where there are predetermined outcomes or, or expectations-

   18. CHChristiana12:28

       Yeah

   19. TNTrevor Noah12:28

       ... for what you need. Because I don't know, I, like, I, I, I have this feeling oftentimes in society where I go, you know, in America I feel it more than most countries, but I, I don't know about you, I hate the fact that we don't know how much we're supposed to do and sort of what we're supposed to do.

   20. CHChristiana12:42

       You mean the rat race?

   21. TNTrevor Noah12:43

       Yes, the rat race.

   22. CHChristiana12:44

       The rat race.

   23. TNTrevor Noah12:44

       How much money do we need?

   24. CHChristiana12:46

       Yeah.

   25. TNTrevor Noah12:46

       Okay, how much success do you need? When is it done? When is it ach- when is it finished? Are you successful? Oh, you didn't get your master's? Oh, you didn't get your PhD? Oh, this is the only house you've stayed in? This is your only c- this is the only vacation? Like, when does it end? And when I was watching these videos, there was a simplistic completion that, that I enjoyed about them, where it was like, all you have to do-

   26. CHChristiana13:09

       Yeah

   27. TNTrevor Noah13:09

       ... is wake up every day.

   28. CHChristiana13:10

       All. [laughs]

   29. TNTrevor Noah13:11

       No, no, no. I'm saying, this is what I mean. What I mean is, I'm not saying it's easy, but it's not infinite. It's al- all-

   30. APAnne Helen Petersen13:17

       But it is infinite because there's always more kids.
6. 14:11 – 16:30

   The ‘tradwife to divorcee’ pipeline: risk, dependency, and the resume problem

   1. CHChristiana14:11

      There is the trad wife to divorcee pipeline, where you lose because you can no longer have children or your husband's left, interested. A lot of trad wives, honestly, are starter wives, even in very Christian circles.

   2. TNTrevor Noah14:23

      Huh.

   3. APAnne Helen Petersen14:23

      Yeah.

   4. CHChristiana14:23

      The man looks at her and he's like, "I have nothing to speak to you about because you're with kids all day."

   5. TNTrevor Noah14:28

      Oh, damn.

   6. CHChristiana14:28

      "And I'm in the world as an adult." And you know, adult socialization is important, Trevor. You know, you get to have certain types of conversations. And this woman has spent the last 15 to 18 years raising children, and he feels she limits her or maybe her body is broken down because that's what children do to your body because they're fucking evil.

   7. TNTrevor Noah14:45

      [laughs]

   8. CHChristiana14:46

      And, um-

   9. APAnne Helen Petersen14:47

      10 children. 10 children. What does that do to your body?

   10. CHChristiana14:48

       10 children. They've had so many children.

   11. TNTrevor Noah14:49

       Oh.

   12. CHChristiana14:49

       It does something to your body. And they say, you know, "I, I need a new wife," or maybe she dies. Like, it's, you know what I mean?

   13. TNTrevor Noah14:56

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   14. CHChristiana14:56

       This is a real life-

   15. TNTrevor Noah14:57

       No, I'm with you. I'm with you

   16. CHChristiana14:57

       ... you know, in Africa you see it all the time.

   17. TNTrevor Noah14:58

       Yeah, no, no, I'm with you. I'm with you.

   18. CHChristiana14:59

       And the woman dies or the woman's gone, and he's found someone else. But what this woman has done, which is an incredible thing, take care of the home for 18 years.

   19. TNTrevor Noah15:07

       Yeah, yeah.

   20. CHChristiana15:07

       You can't put that on your resume.

   21. APAnne Helen Petersen15:09

       Nope.

   22. CHChristiana15:09

       So if you go into Amazon warehouses all over this country, it's full of women who embodied trad wife ideals, whether in a secular or a Christian way.

   23. TNTrevor Noah15:18

       Oh, damn.

   24. CHChristiana15:18

       And they now have to fend for themselves, make minimum wage. They have no retirement. They have no 401Ks. And they are, like, having to w- so I'm saying this, that's one outcome.

   25. TNTrevor Noah15:28

       Okay. I'm gonna challenge both of you on this, and this is me playing a little bit of devil's advocate. I know I'm the only guy in the conversation.

   26. CHChristiana15:33

       [laughs]

   27. TNTrevor Noah15:33

       So my job is also to, like, spice things up. But, but I talk to many men, old men who will say the phrase to me all the time. They'll be like, "Trevor, let me tell you something. Happy wife, happy life."

   28. APAnne Helen Petersen15:45

       [laughs]

   29. TNTrevor Noah15:45

       "You make sure your wife is happy, and she says something and you say, 'Yes, love. Yes, darling. What, what else do you need, honey?' And your life will be smooth."

   30. CHChristiana15:56

       [laughs]
7. 16:30 – 19:24

   Stay-at-home parenting vs trad ideology: when ‘choice’ is tied to control of women

   1. APAnne Helen Petersen16:30

      Well, well first I just want to differentiate between stay-at-home mom or stay-at-home parent-

   2. TNTrevor Noah16:36

      Yeah

   3. APAnne Helen Petersen16:37

      ... and the ideology at work with the, the most, the, with a lot of these women, which is that they, they really believe, they really believe that women should not have power, right? That women should not be educated.

   4. TNTrevor Noah16:53

      Oh.

   5. APAnne Helen Petersen16:54

      Like, they really believe this, right? It's not just-

   6. TNTrevor Noah16:56

      Oh, they, they don't have that in the posts. Okay.

   7. APAnne Helen Petersen16:57

      It's n- [laughs] No, that's not as explicit, right? Like, Project 2025, absolutely on board with that.

   8. TNTrevor Noah17:03

      Oh, okay.

   9. APAnne Helen Petersen17:03

      Like, their, their larger goal is control over women's lives and their bodies. And so that's when, like, when I... 'Cause I think sometimes we get into this game of, like, if you're a feminist, then you shouldn't critique any other woman's choices. But these women, and I'm talking specifically about the ones who are very much invested in this evangelical version of this understanding-

   10. TNTrevor Noah17:28

       Like, the real trad.

   11. APAnne Helen Petersen17:28

       Yeah.

   12. TNTrevor Noah17:28

       Real trad is what you're saying.

   13. APAnne Helen Petersen17:29

       Yes.

   14. TNTrevor Noah17:29

       Okay.

   15. APAnne Helen Petersen17:30

       They believe in a larger project in which all women's rights are subsumed under the will of men.

   16. TNTrevor Noah17:35

       Ah, okay, okay.

   17. APAnne Helen Petersen17:37

       This is where, like, the ideological specificity becomes important because there are some of these women who grow up in the church and get married or convert to Christianity. They c- they become part of the church at a slightly l- later age. Education is frowned upon, so maybe you go to a little bit of Bible college, but you probably don't. You get married as soon as possible. So that you can have sex, right? Because you do not wanna have sex outside of marriage.

   18. TNTrevor Noah18:04

       Right.

   19. APAnne Helen Petersen18:05

       And then-

   20. TNTrevor Noah18:05

       That's the worst sex

   21. APAnne Helen Petersen18:06

       ... you become pregnant as [laughs] you become pregnant as soon as possible. And so a lot of these women have incredibly little in terms of formal education, and if they were themselves educated in a traditional home, they were likely homeschooled and did not have a great foundation. I'm not saying homeschooling creates bad education simply because it's home- homeschooling. A lot of these curriculum practiced in these homes is almost like ... I've heard trad wives who've left that lifestyle call it a form of educational abuse, right? 'Cause they learn so little, and it equips them so poorly.

   22. TNTrevor Noah18:42

       So let me, let me ask you this, then. You s- what you've just described to me now sounds cultish. It sounds-

   23. APAnne Helen Petersen18:48

       Yeah, yeah

   24. TNTrevor Noah18:48

       ... oppressive. It sounds terrible. This is not what I see on my feed. Like-

   25. APAnne Helen Petersen18:52

       Yeah

   26. TNTrevor Noah18:52

       ... my feed, it looks sexy. It looks fun. It looks, um, rewarding. It looks engaging. So help me understand this. How did something ... 'Cause if you j- if you just sold that to me now-

   27. APAnne Helen Petersen19:03

       Yeah

   28. TNTrevor Noah19:03

       ... no one would buy it. How, why is that trending now? Like, why is that huge on ... TikTok is, like, now. We're talking about today.

   29. CHChristiana19:10

       Yeah.

   30. TNTrevor Noah19:10

       You know? This is not like a Facebook trend.
8. 19:24 – 22:47

   Why it trends on TikTok: burnout, childcare math, and the ‘having it all’ backlash

   1. CHChristiana19:24

      I, uh, Anne, I, I, I have so many thoughts on this, but as a millennial woman who has a lot of friends who have chosen to be stay-at-home moms, who are super progressive, very educated-

   2. TNTrevor Noah19:35

      Yeah

   3. CHChristiana19:36

      ... the workplace is really hard. People are burnt out.

   4. APAnne Helen Petersen19:39

      Yeah.

   5. CHChristiana19:39

      So I-

   6. APAnne Helen Petersen19:40

      Yeah

   7. CHChristiana19:40

      ... I speak to friends, and they're like, "Why, why work for 10 man- 10 men when I can work for one?" [laughs]

   8. TNTrevor Noah19:45

      [laughs]

   9. APAnne Helen Petersen19:45

      [laughs]

   10. CHChristiana19:47

       You, you, you know what? You, you, and I can-

   11. APAnne Helen Petersen19:49

       Right. Well, and you're only making enough to cover childcare.

   12. CHChristiana19:52

       Childcare.

   13. APAnne Helen Petersen19:52

       Right?

   14. CHChristiana19:52

       And so, like, yeah.

   15. APAnne Helen Petersen19:53

       The, the, the calculus-

   16. TNTrevor Noah19:54

       Ah, okay

   17. APAnne Helen Petersen19:55

       ... the calculus is broken.

   18. CHChristiana19:56

       Yeah.

   19. APAnne Helen Petersen19:56

       So here you are making barely enough. You're still-

   20. TNTrevor Noah19:58

       Yeah

   21. APAnne Helen Petersen19:58

       ... you're behind. You're behind in the workplace in part because, you know, the pay gap and all of the sorts of, like, various discrimination that happens in the workplace but also because you took maternity leave, which puts you backwards in the work clock for various reasons. And I think that, like, Gen Z, I mean, Gen Z loves to razz millennials, but I think one of the things they see when they look at millennials is like, "Oh, they're trying to have it all." Or, like, millennial feminists are trying to figure out, how can I be a great mom, great parent, a great partner, and, like, a really ... like, have a career that I like? And it's impossible. So what is your choice? I think this is where you get almost, like, this reactionary move, and I don't think that if a Gen Z person is watching this on TikTok, it means that they necessarily have conservative politics, right? It's more that the choices laid out for them seem like they suck.

   22. TNTrevor Noah20:52

       I mean, I, I, I get all ... So okay, let me, let me ... L- let's take a step back, and let me ask you this, then, as a question. Anne, like, help me understand. Is, is being a trad wife problematic in and of itself, or is, is being a trad wife problematic when you live in a society where capitalism will def- define your end game or your outcome on the other side? So if we lived in a world where you didn't have to worry about, like, surviving on the other side, i- is being a trad wife bad? Like, like, you know, I, I, I, I read, um, you know, your, your writing and one of my favorite articles of yours was, was the Elle one where they asked you to be a trad wife-

   23. APAnne Helen Petersen21:30

       [laughs]

   24. TNTrevor Noah21:30

       ... for a week. And forgive me because I guess maybe I've never done this. I couldn't believe that you were like, "I can't do it." I was like, "A week?"

   25. APAnne Helen Petersen21:38

       [laughs]

   26. TNTrevor Noah21:38

       This doesn't seem difficult for a week. All you have to do for a week is, like, serve someone and just, like-

   27. APAnne Helen Petersen21:45

       Trevor.

   28. TNTrevor Noah21:45

       No, no, no. And just-

   29. APAnne Helen Petersen21:47

       No. [laughs]

   30. TNTrevor Noah21:47

       Okay.
9. 22:47 – 32:44

   Fetish vs reality: the ‘sexy submission’ narrative and coercion underneath

   1. TNTrevor Noah22:47

      We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break. [upbeat music] Okay, 'cause when I was going through it, I'm not gonna lie, I was like, "This is a little sexy."

   2. CHChristiana23:04

      [laughs]

   3. TNTrevor Noah23:04

      It seemed ... No, I'll tell you why. It seemed to me like people were, like, living out some sort of fetish vibe.

   4. CHChristiana23:10

      Totally.

   5. TNTrevor Noah23:10

      You know?

   6. CHChristiana23:10

      There's an element of that.

   7. TNTrevor Noah23:11

      No, so it felt like it was like-

   8. CHChristiana23:12

      I mean, they have like 10 kids, so they are having sex.

   9. TNTrevor Noah23:14

      Exactly.

   10. CHChristiana23:15

       Definitely.

   11. TNTrevor Noah23:15

       And, and it was also the, the, the, like-

   12. APAnne Helen Petersen23:16

       But they're having sex, like, we're talking about, like, the old fa- like, they're having sex anytime the man wants it.

   13. TNTrevor Noah23:23

       Oh.

   14. APAnne Helen Petersen23:23

       And some of this is coerced.

   15. CHChristiana23:24

       You're, you're selling this to Trevor right now.

   16. APAnne Helen Petersen23:26

       [laughs]

   17. CHChristiana23:26

       This, this, we, we ... Anne, you really have to bring me back. [laughs]

   18. TNTrevor Noah23:29

       You actually ... No, no, no. You, you actually aren't. I'll, and I'll, I'll tell you why on that, on that element, why. That doesn't, that doesn't, um, that doesn't appeal to me as much because I think one of the problems we have in modern relationships and in society is this lopsided, you know, appetite for sex.

   19. APAnne Helen Petersen23:46

       Yeah.

   20. TNTrevor Noah23:46

       I think, I think, I think sex in a relationship works best when both parties get to want it when they want it.

   21. CHChristiana23:51

       Yeah.

   22. TNTrevor Noah23:52

       'Cause the spark needs to come from both sides.

   23. CHChristiana23:53

       But-

   24. TNTrevor Noah23:53

       So I actually don't like the idea-

   25. CHChristiana23:55

       But that trad, that trad dad you described-

   26. TNTrevor Noah23:57

       Yes

   27. CHChristiana23:57

       ... part of why he does that is the expectation anytime I-

   28. APAnne Helen Petersen24:00

       Yeah

   29. CHChristiana24:01

       ... do wanna have sex with this woman, she's gonna have sex with me.

   30. TNTrevor Noah24:02

       No, no, no. I think, I think-
10. 32:44 – 38:49

    The moneyless thought experiment: power, identity, and why neither guest opts in

    1. TNTrevor Noah32:44

       ... you were allergic to it on all levels. One of the big ones was money. So then let me ask you both this. Let's say we took money completely off the table forever. You, you would be fine. There is no issue whatsoever.

    2. CHChristiana32:54

       My heart just dropped. I love money so much. [laughs]

    3. TNTrevor Noah32:55

       No, but forget it. Money's out of the ... There's no money. Don't worry about money anymore.

    4. CHChristiana32:58

       I like money. Sorry.

    5. TNTrevor Noah32:59

       Don't worry about money, okay? We live in a moneyless world.

    6. CHChristiana33:01

       Okay.

    7. TNTrevor Noah33:02

       Okay? Does being a tradwife become more attractive to you now?

    8. CHChristiana33:07

       No, not for me.

    9. TNTrevor Noah33:08

       Okay, so not for you.

    10. APAnne Helen Petersen33:09

        No.

    11. TNTrevor Noah33:09

        Still no. I'm just gonna keep throwing things out, and then I wanna-

    12. CHChristiana33:11

        Yeah

    13. TNTrevor Noah33:11

        ... I wanna see where I get you. Okay.

    14. CHChristiana33:12

        'Cause I, I don't wanna lose power.

    15. TNTrevor Noah33:13

        Okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

    16. CHChristiana33:14

        Yeah. Yeah.

    17. TNTrevor Noah33:14

        Let's, so, so money, no problem.

    18. CHChristiana33:16

        Yeah.

    19. TNTrevor Noah33:16

        Still no for you, Anne, no for you.

    20. APAnne Helen Petersen33:18

        Well, but, so, like, then all I would just do all day would be doing stuff for the home that also served my partner. Like, I would be okay with it if I could just, like, garden. Like, I could do stuff that I wanted to do.

    21. TNTrevor Noah33:33

        No, no, no, no, no, you're not understanding.

    22. CHChristiana33:34

        [laughs]

    23. APAnne Helen Petersen33:35

        [laughs]

    24. TNTrevor Noah33:35

        I, I now see why you would be a bad tradwife. You're not, you're not, you're not listening to my commands here, Anne.

    25. CHChristiana33:41

        [laughs]

    26. APAnne Helen Petersen33:41

        [laughs]

    27. TNTrevor Noah33:41

        I'm saying you're tasked with everything, but you don't ever have to worry about money. And I mean ev- even if the man disappears, the state or the entity will look after you. So Christiane, you're not in.

    28. CHChristiana33:51

        No.

    29. APAnne Helen Petersen33:52

        No.

    30. TNTrevor Noah33:52

        Okay, okay, okay.
11. 38:49 – 43:17

    Online trad vs ‘real trad’: hypocrisy, access to social media, and the paradox of choice

    1. TNTrevor Noah38:49

       Don't go anywhere, 'cause we got more What Now? after this. [upbeat music] I wonder if the trad wives we don't see online are pissed off at the trad wives that we do see online. On- only because-

    2. CHChristiana39:08

       Mm

    3. TNTrevor Noah39:08

       ... one of the elements that both of you have mentioned, and I've, I've actually heard a lot of people speak about, is the lack of outside interaction, is the lack of outside connection, is the lack of just expanding your mind. And so I wonder if, like, OG trad wives are a little bit pissed off at these, like, internet trad wives because they're like, "No, you're interacting with people online all day. You're, you're not living the trad."

    4. CHChristiana39:34

       Yeah.

    5. TNTrevor Noah39:34

       It's, it's like these, um, y- have you ever followed these, like, TikToks where people live off the grid, and they, they're like, "Uh, I live by myself. I'm in a, I'm in a forest, and I make my food. I don't talk to people. I don't ... " I w- but they're on a live telling people this.

    6. CHChristiana39:48

       [laughs]

    7. TNTrevor Noah39:48

       And they're responding to people.

    8. APAnne Helen Petersen39:49

       [laughs]

    9. TNTrevor Noah39:49

       You know what I mean?

    10. APAnne Helen Petersen39:50

        Yeah.

    11. TNTrevor Noah39:50

        And I'm like, "But you're not living the life."

    12. APAnne Helen Petersen39:52

        Yeah.

    13. TNTrevor Noah39:52

        By, by, by virtue of the fact that you are displaying it, you, you are not living the life. And so I, like, I don't know, because you, you've written so much about it and you've interviewed so many people about it. Is there, like, a, an inner conflict within the trad movement where they're like, "These people are fake trad," or do they look at them as missionaries where they go, "No, they're necessary to spread our movement"?

    14. APAnne Helen Petersen40:13

        Well, I think that some on, like, the far extreme side of the spectrum would definitely say that some of those cute dresses are way too revealing.

    15. TNTrevor Noah40:21

        Oh.

    16. APAnne Helen Petersen40:21

        But then, like, I don't know. I think a lot of women aren't at all aware ... Like, if you're really deep in this stuff, you're not, you don't have a TikTok account.

    17. CHChristiana40:30

        Mm.

    18. APAnne Helen Petersen40:30

        You're not watching this.

    19. TNTrevor Noah40:31

        Yeah.

    20. APAnne Helen Petersen40:31

        Right?

    21. CHChristiana40:31

        Yeah.

    22. APAnne Helen Petersen40:31

        Like, you don't have that exposure because your husband wouldn't let you have even that sort of freedom.

    23. TNTrevor Noah40:36

        Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait.

    24. APAnne Helen Petersen40:37

        You don't have a bank account.

    25. TNTrevor Noah40:37

        So, so now wait, wait. So now let's, let's go to that. Is, is the truest expression of a trad wife the fact that you are not opting into it? 'Cause you see, it's interesting that you just said your husband wouldn't let you. So are, like, real, real, real trad wives not choosing to be trad wives, or can you choose to be somebody who is oppressed? I know it seems like a paradox.

    26. CHChristiana40:58

        Yeah, I, I-

    27. TNTrevor Noah40:58

        But can you?

    28. CHChristiana40:59

        It's interesting, 'cause A- and, and maybe you have a different disp- perspective on this, 'cause I, I come from more of, like, a Black Pentecostal, um, evangelical circles, and there is a degree of indoctrination, like just purity culture.

    29. TNTrevor Noah41:13

        Okay.

    30. CHChristiana41:13

        You're not supposed to have sex before your marriage.
12. 43:17 – 48:07

    Indoctrination, fear, and women enforcing patriarchy as ‘protection’

    1. APAnne Helen Petersen43:17

       Oh, there's so many things to talk about here, but I think that some of them have witnessed examples made of women who leave their whole entire lives, right? If you left, if you weren't enough a part of the church, like you're a fallen woman, and the way that those women are narrativized in the stories that they hear in their church, in their homes, like it's the end of your life. It's, it's not just a spiritual death. It is a, like you are over.

    2. TNTrevor Noah43:44

       Mm-hmm.

    3. APAnne Helen Petersen43:45

       And so that is like, do you actually have a choice? You're like I, either I'm going to risk everything, or I'm going to follow this path. I think there's also a risk that happens when people like us from the outside are like, "Oh, these women think that they're choosing, but they're not choosing."

    4. TNTrevor Noah44:03

       Yeah, yeah.

    5. APAnne Helen Petersen44:04

       It's you're giving them this sort of false consciousness, which is very, I think, demeaning.

    6. CHChristiana44:09

       Yeah.

    7. APAnne Helen Petersen44:10

       Right? Like, it's saying that they don't, they don't actually know, have any awareness of the world. But man, a lot of the women are the ones leading the charge with this.

    8. CHChristiana44:21

       Mm.

    9. APAnne Helen Petersen44:21

       They're the ones who are encouraging their husbands to become, you know, to go deeper into the trad like funnel, right? And it's because they see it as the route to their salvation, but I also think it's like more and more safety, right? Like it's-

    10. TNTrevor Noah44:38

        That's, that's a complicated puzzle now

    11. APAnne Helen Petersen44:39

        ... fewer choices that I have to make, right?

    12. CHChristiana44:40

        Yeah.

    13. APAnne Helen Petersen44:41

        Yeah.

    14. CHChristiana44:41

        And I, I ... Do you know, it's so funny 'cause I speak to my friends about this, about like the matriarchs being the ones that policed what we would wear the most.

    15. TNTrevor Noah44:48

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    16. CHChristiana44:48

        It was never like an uncle-

    17. APAnne Helen Petersen44:50

        Yes

    18. CHChristiana44:50

        ... saying, "That skirt is too short." It'd be a woman in church being like, "Why are you wearing that?"

    19. TNTrevor Noah44:54

        I think it's a complicated loop. You know, in the same way that Black parents will oftentimes beat their children more than most cops would ever because they're going, "If you do not follow the letter of the law, these people, the law-

    20. CHChristiana45:12

        Yeah

    21. TNTrevor Noah45:12

        ... will come down and take you away from me. It will end your life."

    22. CHChristiana45:15

        Mm.

    23. TNTrevor Noah45:15

        "I need to brutalize you so that you do not get-

    24. CHChristiana45:18

        Yeah

    25. TNTrevor Noah45:18

        ... brutalized by somebody-

    26. CHChristiana45:19

        Yeah, I know what you mean

    27. TNTrevor Noah45:19

        ... who does not care for you."

    28. APAnne Helen Petersen45:20

        Mm-hmm.

    29. TNTrevor Noah45:20

        In a weird way, I sometimes think that it might be the same thing with these societies, is that these women are not going, "How dare you wear that?" sort of from my perspective. They're going like, "How dare you endanger yourself?"

    30. CHChristiana45:32

        Oh, okay.
13. 48:07 – 52:48

    Political resonance: post-pandemic exhaustion, algorithms, and the promise of abundance

    1. APAnne Helen Petersen48:07

       Yeah

    2. TNTrevor Noah48:07

       ... on a, on a political level. You know, at the beginning of the conversation, you said- There's a reason this is bubbling up now more than ever. And, and, and it's true. I'm assuming trad culture didn't start yesterday. I'm assuming it-

    3. APAnne Helen Petersen48:21

       [laughs]

    4. TNTrevor Noah48:21

       ... it's been around for a while. I'm assuming it'll be around for a while, but the trend has really gotten steam. The trend is really moving in a certain way. And I'd, I'd love to know, as somebody who, you know, obviously works in this space but explores many others, how do you think they tie into each other? Like, what is the seduction that they're using to, to bring people in? Like, why is that resonating with anyone, the idea of what is a real woman, or we need to go back to the way women were? Why is that connecting, you know, if it's not true at all? Or, or is some of it true?

    5. APAnne Helen Petersen48:56

       I think women are exhausted, and I think that that has only become more true in the wake of the pandemic. So there's new research out that I saw in The New York Times recently about, like, looking at, you know, two years on from COVID isolation and, and kids being home during, like, especially that first year of COVID, on who took on the primary care in two-parent homes-

    6. TNTrevor Noah49:21

       Yeah

    7. APAnne Helen Petersen49:21

       ... with separate genders, and, like, s- the women, right? Like, just the bulk, the incredible bulk of care. And then that f- fatigue just continued on. There was never any recovery, right? So they had c- people develop caregiving burnout, but also work burnout.

    8. TNTrevor Noah49:39

       Yeah.

    9. APAnne Helen Petersen49:39

       Like, all, all of these things together, and then we just never had any sort of way of coping with any of that. If anything, parenting norms have become even more intense in the last four years, especially as people have anxiety over, like, learning loss-

    10. TNTrevor Noah49:54

        Yeah, yeah, yeah

    11. APAnne Helen Petersen49:55

        ... and these things that aren't actually real, right? So, like, everything all the time, and y- maybe you thought that, like, "Oh, when my kid gets a little older, it'll be a little easier," and it's not, right? Like, there's still all of these anxieties about screen time and safety and just everything. And so if you're dealing with that every day, just peak of exhaustion, and the only thing that you can do when you're that tired, the only thing that you can, like, find, muster the energy to do is either watch some Netflix or lay on your bed and watch TikTok, what's gonna catch your eye? And you know the way that the algorithms work, [laughs] as you know.

    12. TNTrevor Noah50:36

        Mm-hmm.

    13. APAnne Helen Petersen50:36

        Right?

    14. TNTrevor Noah50:36

        Mm-hmm.

    15. APAnne Helen Petersen50:37

        Like, you watch some of something, and it gives you more of that thing.

    16. TNTrevor Noah50:40

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    17. APAnne Helen Petersen50:40

        So that's part of it, and it's not so much like, "I don't want to have rights." It's, "This way is clearly not working."

    18. TNTrevor Noah50:49

        Yeah.

    19. APAnne Helen Petersen50:51

        What e- what other options do I have? Because, like, the government is not going to change anytime soon because of the way that it's organized in this country.

    20. TNTrevor Noah51:00

        Yeah.

    21. APAnne Helen Petersen51:00

        Like, we are still going to have people in power who believe that offering affordable childcare is, like, encourages women to work outside of the home, and thus, we should not have a- affordable childcare.

    22. TNTrevor Noah51:13

        Right.

    23. APAnne Helen Petersen51:13

        Right? So if you can't beat them, [laughs] join them.

    24. TNTrevor Noah51:18

        It's, it's funny you talk about the trends and what they actually say about society. You know, I, I, I think it's, um, is it Gabor Mate, the, the, the writer who says ... He always talks about how, when dealing with addiction, he says, like, "Don't focus on the thing that you're craving. Focus on the pain that the addiction is covering."

    25. APAnne Helen Petersen51:38

        Mm-hmm.

    26. TNTrevor Noah51:39

        Do you know what I mean? And in a way, I think that with society as well. I think to myself, oftentimes we'll focus on the trend. We'll focus on what people are gravitating towards. We don't focus on the pain that that is covering. You know, the trad wives, I think you just eloquently laid it out. We don't ask ourselves why it's becoming more popular. There's a lot of people going like, "Yeah, well, wow, that sounds nice." To have a home? Just even start with that.

    27. APAnne Helen Petersen52:04

        Yep.

    28. TNTrevor Noah52:04

        The idea of-

    29. APAnne Helen Petersen52:04

        Yep

    30. TNTrevor Noah52:05

        ... having a home?
14. 52:48 – 56:47

    A ‘third way’: reclaiming domestic crafts without submitting to patriarchy (and capitalism as the real culprit)

    1. APAnne Helen Petersen52:48

       Well, I, I do think that some w- like, this is something that's been going on for, like, 10, 15 years. It's the return to, like, crafting-

    2. TNTrevor Noah52:55

       Yes. Yes, yes

    3. APAnne Helen Petersen52:56

       ... and, um, like, fiber arts and, like, domestic arts, for lack of a better word.

    4. TNTrevor Noah53:01

       Yes.

    5. APAnne Helen Petersen53:01

       What we used to, like, teach as home ec. Like, those things, people like doing them. They're rewarding. It is fun to make things with your hands, whether it's something like a piece of wood-

    6. TNTrevor Noah53:11

       Yeah

    7. APAnne Helen Petersen53:12

       ... or it's gardening or whatever. Like, I do think that mill- And we know, we hear about this a lot, 'cause I think a lot of millennials who, like, worked their butts off throughout their 20s and 30s are like, "Okay, do I have any hobbies? Do I have a personality?"

    8. TNTrevor Noah53:26

       Yeah.

    9. APAnne Helen Petersen53:26

       "What do I like to do?"

    10. TNTrevor Noah53:28

        Yeah.

    11. APAnne Helen Petersen53:28

        And figuring that out. So I do think that there are ways of dabbling that aren't full, you know, submission to the patriarchy. Like, there's a halfway.

    12. TNTrevor Noah53:39

        Can I tell you guys a little secret on behalf of the patriarchy?

    13. APAnne Helen Petersen53:43

        [laughs]

    14. TNTrevor Noah53:43

        Um, men are also exhausted.

    15. APAnne Helen Petersen53:46

        Yeah.

    16. CHChristiana53:46

        Yeah.

    17. TNTrevor Noah53:46

        And I, I think sometimes I, I don't know. Sometimes I fi- find myself feeling like we're all playing, like, a game, and, and it almost, it almost makes me wonder, like, "Okay, well, if everyone is experiencing this oppressive force, who's applying the force?"

    18. CHChristiana54:02

        Capitalism.

    19. TNTrevor Noah54:03

        [laughs]

    20. CHChristiana54:04

        [laughs]

    21. TNTrevor Noah54:05

        I didn't wanna say it.

    22. CHChristiana54:06

        [laughs]

    23. TNTrevor Noah54:06

        I didn't wanna say it.

    24. CHChristiana54:07

        And I-

    25. TNTrevor Noah54:07

        But, like ... 'Cause you know who's not complaining about it? Is companies. I don't know if you noticed.

    26. CHChristiana54:10

        Oh, yeah. Companies-

    27. TNTrevor Noah54:11

        Companies are never exhausted.

    28. CHChristiana54:13

        [laughs]

    29. TNTrevor Noah54:13

        Companies are never like, "Ah, yes, we're having a tough time. We're so tired. We've decided to stop being a company for a while."

    30. CHChristiana54:20

        [laughs]

Episode duration: 56:48