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What Now? With Trevor NoahTripping Past Your Ego with Michael Pollan | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast
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Chapter summaries
Trevor and Christiana's Opposing Views on Drugs
Trevor introduces Michael Pollan and admits he and his co-host may disagree entirely on the topic. They trade how their upbringings shaped their attitudes toward drugs, including Trevor's mother offering him cigarettes and beer at home.
- •Trevor introduces Michael Pollan and his books, including The Omnivore's Dilemma and How to Change Your Mind
- •Pollan is cast as the go-to guy on psychedelics even though he calls himself a journalist
- •The co-host says she is surprisingly un-nuanced and reactive on this topic
- •Trevor's mother let him try cigarettes and beer at home as harm reduction
- •Trevor grew up believing drugs meant being a loser and did not smoke weed until 21
Talking About Risk First: Addiction, Overdose and Bad Trips
Pollan explains that leading with risk makes skeptical listeners open up. He says classic psychedelics have no recorded lethal dose and no addiction risk, though psychotic breaks and bad trips are real and set and setting matter.
- •Pollan says talking about risk at the start keeps skeptical listeners open
- •Classic psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, DMT) have no recorded lethal dose, unlike Tylenol
- •Rats given LSD try it once and never again, unlike amphetamines or cocaine
- •The Andrew Weil story shows a panic attack can look like psychosis
- •A guide and proper set and setting reduce the danger of bad trips
From Taboo to Medicine and Spiritual Use
Trevor compares psychedelics' changing image to cannabis. Pollan describes how the taboo lifted after 2018, how cannabis was rebranded as medicine, and how psilocybin was given to religious leaders.
- •Cannabis was rebranded from Cheech and Chong to medicine for AIDS patients
- •Scientists used to admit psychedelic use only off the record
- •Psychedelics are on both a medical path and a spiritual path
- •Religious leaders from many faiths were given psilocybin in a study, and several had their faith renewed
- •Many encountered a divine that was feminine, while the Buddhist priest described a realm beyond concept
End-of-Life Care and Ego Dissolution
The co-host says the benefits are what scare her, and asks Pollan to describe them, especially end-of-life care. Pollan describes work at NYU and Johns Hopkins with terminal cancer patients and explains ego dissolution, including his own experience of becoming blue Post-it Notes.
- •Terminal cancer patients had guided sessions at NYU and Johns Hopkins
- •Patients' anxiety about death changed
- •One woman felt her molecules being taken up by plants and identified with something beyond her ego
- •Pollan describes his own ego dissolution as exploding into blue Post-it Notes
- •The ego is a defensive wall, and when it comes down nothing separates you from what is out there
Short-Circuiting the Brain's Predictions
Trevor describes friends who became believers after psychedelics, and links the drugs to neuroplasticity and a baby's sense of wonder. Pollan explains lantern versus spotlight consciousness and how psychedelics disrupt predictive habits, helping with addiction, eating disorders and OCD.
- •Trevor's atheist friends came away believing in something beyond themselves
- •The co-host argues that Pentecostal experiences and meditation can do similar things
- •Pollan says adult brains mostly use the senses to correct predictions
- •Children have lantern consciousness while adults have spotlight consciousness
- •Psychedelics temporarily dissolve habits of thought, useful for addiction, eating disorders and OCD
Could Psychedelics Treat Racism? Integration and Guides
The co-host asks seriously whether psychedelics could treat racism or homophobia as patterns of thought. Pollan calls it an untested hypothesis and stresses that guides and integration after the experience are what make changes last.
- •Pollan says treating racism is an untested hypothesis, and no study has looked at racial attitudes
- •Psychedelics are generally thought to increase connectedness and reduce tolerance for authoritarianism
- •The co-host wonders about police biases and predictions
- •Pollan says people write new stories about themselves, and a guide helps solidify them afterward
- •Trevor says people without intention or integration slip back into old patterns
Indigenous Roots and Who Is Using Psychedelics
The co-host objects that psychedelics come from indigenous medicine. Pollan says psilocybin and peyote have indigenous histories, while LSD and MDMA are Western creations, and describes communities now adopting them.
- •Psilocybin and peyote were used for thousands of years in Mexico, Central America and by Native Americans
- •LSD and MDMA are products of modern Western chemistry
- •Pollan says the '60s went wrong by ignoring indigenous wisdom
- •Silicon Valley funds studies, and consciousness researchers experiment with psychedelics
- •Veterans use them for trauma, and microdosing may work through placebo
Cost, Alcohol Versus Psychedelics, and Healing a Broken World
The co-host raises cost and worries about family addiction. Trevor contrasts alcohol, which disconnects you from yourself, with psychedelics, and predicts AI guides. They debate whether psychedelics are a plaster over societal wounds, and Pollan says trauma and death will always need treatment.
- •The co-host notes that guides are expensive and her family history of addiction shapes her view
- •Trevor says alcohol disconnects you from yourself while psychedelics connect you to yourself
- •Trevor predicts an AI guide on your phone to democratize access
- •The co-host argues psychedelics are a plaster over the mother wound and that society should reduce trauma
- •Pollan agrees causes of trauma should be removed but says death and trauma will still happen
FDA Approval, Big Pharma and Trevor's Conspiracy Theory
Trevor shares his theory that governments will only legalize psychedelics once pharma can synthesize and sell them at a markup. Pollan compares the rejected MDMA approval with esketamine and explains why the FDA struggles with psychedelic-assisted therapy.
- •Trevor fears pharma will outlaw grown mushrooms and sell expensive synthetic versions
- •Pollan says mushrooms are easy to produce, so they will be hard to control
- •Esketamine was approved despite weak trial results because big pharma backed it and no therapy was needed
- •The FDA is stumped by psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy because the therapy cannot be removed
- •Pollan says once a business model exists, big pharma will get involved
Psychedelics, Teenagers and Rites of Passage
The co-host asks how parents should talk to teens about psychedelics. Pollan recounts his son's frightening mushroom outing in high school and says he sees psychedelics as a rite of passage not suited to a 13-year-old, and Trevor adds that young brains are already plastic.
- •The co-host asks how a parent should discuss shrooms with a 15-year-old
- •Pollan tells of his son's friend who thought his arm was falling off
- •Pollan's concern in that story was the car, as with alcohol
- •He suggests not using ego-altering chemicals before the ego is developed
- •Trevor told his younger brother to keep his plastic brain until he is stuck
Spiked Communion Wine and Psychedelics as Threat to the Order
Pollan says early communion wine may have been spiked, citing ergot residue found in a cup in Spain. Trevor and the co-host debate order versus freedom and whether psychedelics undermined the American Dream.
- •Pollan cites evidence that early communion wine may have contained ergot, the fungus LSD derives from
- •He recommends the book The Immortality Key
- •Trevor says Nixon-era officials targeted psychedelics because they undermined the American Dream
- •Trevor argues ancient tribes used psychedelics to maintain order
- •The co-host says she prefers order over freedom and fears a loss of striving
Drugs, Capitalism and the Politics of the Drug War
Asked whether psychedelics changed his own yearning, Pollan says they are not habit-forming and places them among society's drugs. He notes caffeine suits the capitalist order and recounts the Ehrlichman quote about Nixon's drug war targeting hippies and Black people.
- •Psychedelics are not habit-forming and usually involve one or two experiences
- •Every society has drugs, and caffeine makes people better workers
- •Alcohol numbs people and cigarettes help make people better workers
- •Ehrlichman said the drug war was about politics, aimed at hippies and Black people
- •Pollan says it is still undecided whether society can make peace with psychedelics
Fear, Creativity and the Windshield of Consciousness
The co-host explains her fear of upheaval stems from her British and Nigerian background in order and hierarchy. Pollan says he would want others using psychedelics for creativity, and describes psychedelics as smudging the windshield of consciousness; Trevor jokes about spiking the UN's water.
- •The co-host's fear of upheaval comes from her background in hierarchical societies
- •Pollan says he'd want to live in a world where other people use psychedelics
- •Psychedelics are called cultural mutagens, with Steve Jobs crediting LSD for his vision
- •Psychedelics smudge the windshield of consciousness so you notice it
- •Trevor jokes about spiking UN delegates' water like communion
After the Interview: Where the Co-Host Landed
After Pollan leaves, Trevor asks the co-host where she stands. She moves to about 50% no for society, supporting end-of-life care and veterans, and to 95% no for herself.
- •She is 100% no for herself at first, then 95% after the conversation
- •For society she lands at about 50% no
- •She supports use for end-of-life care, veterans and people needing healing
- •She says she doesn't feel the yearning for it because nature, her children and faith serve her
- •Trevor takes credit for moving her 5%
