Vic Mensa: Who is the Real Threat?

[upbeat music] The worst thing about being robbed by somebody on a bicycle is, is that it-

Oh, yeah, it's crazy

... it's, it's a very, it's a very whimsical way to be robbed.

Mm.

Something extreme.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if someone pulls out a gun and they're like, "Give me-

A story to tell as well, yeah

... give me your phone, give me your wallet."

Yeah.

No, but even after it happens, if, let, let's say if people were watching you, there's a certain amount of bravado that you get to maintain.

For surviving a gunshot.

"Wow, man, I, I can't believe you got robbed. I saw what happened, and you were there, and you had to put your hands up, and the person..." Or even a knife, you know, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

When you get robbed by somebody on a bicycle, it is one of... Because just think of a bicycle, and then the person grabs your phone. You said you were on a FaceTime.

Yes.

So now they're on a FaceTime with this person. [laughs]

[laughs]

I never thought about that.

So one minute you, as Vic, are like, "Man, let me tell you what I'm doing out here. Let me..."

[whooshing]

"Let me tell you what I'm doing out here." [upbeat music] This is What Now? With Trevor Noah.

Yo, you know what happened yesterday?

So I unintentionally bought a new iPhone.

Wait, before you guys carry on, can I just say you guys look like you got the same style memo, and then I was excluded from this.

When are you think I don't research?

So you dress like this for Vic? [laughs]

[laughs] It's the South African version.

I was like, if I find... I was like, if I find an orange, the guests will never know the difference. [laughs]

You know, we should have got... I don't, I don't know if you've, if this is because of you. I, I don't want to say it's because of you, and I haven't forgotten the iPhone thing. We're gonna come back to it.

Mm-hmm.

I have experienced an extreme citrus craving.

[laughs]

No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. I'm, I'm not... I... Yo, he, he, okay, he's my witness-

Yeah

... because he sees my fridge. My fridge always has watermelon in it.

Mm-hmm.

Always, always, always. Now, I have copious amounts of citrus.

Mm.

And I wonder, I genuinely wonder if it's partly because of you.

You'll never get sick.

Yeah, but I just wonder if, like, you've sort of y- you know-

Subconsciously influenced.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've-

Absolutely

... you've created like a-

I need to get a royalty from the, the citrus companies

... you could, and you, you probably could get sp-

Yeah, for sure

... you could get sponsored by, like, Big Orange or something.

And after, it can go to avocados. [laughs]

That's... Can you-

So remember you used to go on the iPhone, and there'll be selfies of people that have taken pictures of themselves.

Okay, wait, wait, so you were in the Apple Store.

Mind you, when you touch it-

This was me.

This was you?

As a child, yeah. I used to just hang out in the Apple Store and just, like, take selfies.

No, you were, you were one of those people?

Practice rapping in the, in the-

So now the phone's... Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait

... behind the computers. Oh, yeah, I got so many photos of myself, me and all my friends hanging out in the Apple Store.

[laughs] Can you imagine?

Making faces, like, throwing up gang signs.

Did you record stuff as well?

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

I used to... No, no, no. I used to see kids, no joke.

100%.

I used to see kids in the Apple Store on the iMac making an album.

Yeah, yeah. I recorded raps on there, all type of shit.

No one threw you out, right?

They did throw us out.

Oh, okay.

And then we came back.

Yeah. I saw something like that.

Do you know where those albums are? Do you know where the music is?

Facebook. Like, all buried secrets.

I feel like they shouldn't throw you out. I feel like that should be part of, like, the Apple Store's... It, it... How can I explain it? If you create, like, a subculture-

Mm

... within an Apple Store, that people come in to try and create things so that they can blow up, I argue that's one of the greatest marketing campaigns that's, that's-

It's tight. It's tight

Oh, man, that's actually-

Deep as fuck

... Yeah, that's, that's actually deep on so many levels.

Mm.

Because how much risk should a society be willing to take, take for the potential of- ... the great talents. Do, do, do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Like, if you were, it's easy for us to say it from, like, an institutional point of view. But, like, let's say you saw something in your kid that was scary, but could go on to become the greatest thing ever.

Hmm.

Do you hinder that?

I see it in my kid now. He just smacked somebody in the face yesterday.

[laughs] You're like, "UFC."

[laughs] I'm like, "Yeah, this guy's a fighter."

[laughs]

He could be a champion.

But?

But he just smacked his mom in the face, too. So.

How do you d- how do you deal with that? 'Cause on our side of the world-

[clears throat]

... that- that's not a story that could be told in that way.

In what way?

The way you just told the story seems like that is the conclusion of it, right? My kid... Or, or I'm assuming. What happened afterwards?

So he is a Taurus, which I'm learning is really the bull. Like, they're very-

Yeah

... stubborn.

Okay.

My father's a Taurus, but he's patient and maybe a different kind of Taurus.

Okay.

My son is like me, but a Taurus, and so he's, like, coming to blows with things. You know what I'm saying? And now he's in daycare, so those things are people, and he, he sees other kids that have toys. He doesn't have any siblings. He doesn't really... No sharing.

How old is he?

He's about to be two.

Three.

Okay.

Yeah.

He's about to be two next week.

Sounds like a two, three-year-old problem with that.

Yeah, for sure. And he sees-

[laughs]

... kids with toys. He wants their toy. He tries to take it. The kid doesn't want him to take it. He hits. My girlfriend comes to try to correct him. "Mansa," his name is Mansa Musa. Said, "Mansa, you n- you need to apologize to this kid." He hits her, too.

So does he have the full name, Mansa Musa?

Mansa Musa Mensa.

Or just Mansa only?

Mansa Musa Mensa.

Oh.

Or Triple M. That's the... And, uh, my, my Ghanaian cousins, they call him Triple M.

[laughs] Triple M.

And they've recently-

[laughs]

[laughs] Wait, who calls him this?

[laughs] At daycare. That's like he was, like, in the Smackdown.

No, I got a-

"Come here, nigga. Stop it, nigga." [laughs]

[laughs]

No, my Ghanaian cousins. I don't know what happened. It's like, so once he hit two, and now I post pictures of him, and they respond in my story, like, "My little nigga is getting so big."

[laughs]

And me and my girl are like, "What?" [laughs]

It, it, it has a different vibe in Africa, though.

Yeah.

It's just like a... You know? It, it, you-

It's funny, because they just don't know how to use it right. That's all.

No, that's it. So-

They just don't-

That's what I was about to say.

Who's they?

In, in South Africa.

My cousins.

[laughs]

In, no, but in South Africa-

Af- Africans, too. I mean, South Africans, too. I mean, it don't, it don't sound right when y'all say it.

No, it's true.

[laughs]

It's off.

We, we say-

[laughs]

We will even say, we will say, "Abbo, my nigga."

Yeah.

Which refers often to, like, African Americans in hip-hop.

But because there's also a cultural difference, in South Africa, many of us grew up influenced by hip-hop culture.

Hmm.

Right? And one of the things, before you could even, like, speak English, I remember my cousin would be, like, rappe- rapping along to Tupac. And then one of the things you'd say, he'd be like, "Oh, I wanna man. I wanna jelly man. I wanna jelly. Yo, yo, my, my man. Yo, yo, my man. Yo, yo, my nigga." Then you'd, you'd just say that. That's what you just knew you have to say to be in hip-hop.

Those two words were used interchangeably.

Yes.

My man.

And my nigga.

My nigga.

Then what happened was-

True. That's accurate

... over, over time, if you were s- if you were somebody who was in hip-hop, you were then referred to by people who weren't in hip-hop as abbo, my nigga. So they would say it for-

No, first it was amani.

Yeah, that's true. Amani, that's true.

Yeah.

Which is plural.

The rappers.

Yeah, the rappers.

The guys wearing durags.

Yeah.

Oversized FUBU shirts.

And then, and there's n-

Amani

... there's no, and there's no... It's not-

There's a thin line between love and racism. [laughs]

Yes, but it's also, but it's also, it's also how you say it. If you say, "Amani ga."

Uh-uh. Yeah.

"Amani ga."

Yeah, now it's... That's the one.

So it's got an, it's got a double E.

That's the one. Yeah, that's the one that's dope.

slightly, uh, like, praised connotation in a colonial sense.

Mm.

Sean Gamla.

You know what I'm saying?

Mm-hmm. Mm.

And so it's like a foreigner, but it's a, a, a bit uplifted.

It's an exalted foreigner.

You know what I mean? An exalted foreigner.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, uh-

Mm

... and, and they'll call me a white man. So I'm, I'm in this house where I'm staying, and the, the man who works in the home sees that I'm about to go outside. Uh, it's like 9:00 PM. I'm trying to go find some food. Ghana's very safe. You know what I'm saying? So I'ma go find some food. I'm like, you know, putting on my shit, and he's like, "Where are you going?" And I said, "Man, I'm about to go get some food." He said, "Ah, ah, ah. Ghanaians, they do not like when white people go out at night." [laughs]

[laughs]

And I'm like, "Me? White people go out at night?" I'm like, "If you don't get the fuck out my way, like, I'm from Chicago. I'm from a very dangerous place. Like, I'm going outside." But I thought that was so funny to me that I was so not a Black person-

[clears throat] Yeah

... in a Ghanaian context. Like, that I was enough of a white person that I should be fearful for going outside-

It's, it's-

... alone at night.

Yeah.

Did you go outside?

And I'm... Yeah, I went, of course. But I didn't find shit. They don't have nothing going on at 9:00 PM in Ghana.

[laughs]

It's not even like that.

But can I ask you a q- you know, it's funny you say that thing. Do you ever wonder whether or not the bona fides you have where you're from hold up in another place? Because you see what you just said. You're like-

Mm

... "I'm from Chicago.

I don't..." You know?

Mm.

Oh, yeah.

I sometimes think about that. I go-

They're like, "Here, there's machetes."

Yeah, but that's- [laughs]

[laughs] No, for real.

"Where do you live in Chicago again?"

I went to, uh-

No, but that's what I mean

... I went to Jamaica, man.

[laughs]

One time I got to Jamaica, you know what I'm saying, and my flight was, uh, kind of disrupted. I had the wrong passport. My manager had gave me his passport. I'm sitting in the airport for, like, 16 hours. I'm frustrated. I try to sneak in the shit, all type of shit. When I eventually made it there, I got a chip on my shoulder 'cause I'm like, "This was a three-day-long trip-

Mm

... and I spent the first day-

And you've already lost 16 hours. Yeah

... I spent the first fucking day in a, in a fucking-

Yeah

... Montego Bay airport. And so I get there. You know when you're in Jamaica, many places, that, uh, local guys will just try to accompany you-

Yep

... to get tips. You know what I'm saying?

Same thing in Nigeria.

And so the local guy, he jumps in the car. He's like, "Oh, I'ma tell you where you're going. You're going this way." You know, and I'm like, "Okay." Um, and, and we get there, and eventually he wants his tip.

Yep.

You know? And, and once again, my Chicago thing, it, it clicks on. And as I feel like he's kinda trying to strong-arm me-

Uh-huh

... into this tip-

Uh-huh, uh-huh

... I'm like, "What the fuck is you talking about? I'm from Chicago. You not finna..." You know what I'm saying? "Strong-arm me out of shit." And, and later that day, though, I went to the hotel pool, and I'm, I'm like, "Man, you know what? Let me inspect the validity of this I'm from Chicago claim in Jamaica." And so I looked-

Wait, so did you tip him?

Jamaica

... Jamaica. [laughs]

[laughs]

I was like, "I'm tipping everybody." I mean, the, the tip would've been, like, 25 cents.

[laughs]

[laughs]

I was like, "These niggas will kill me."

[laughs]

[laughs]

"They should be telling me, 'I'm from Jamaica. You better give me what I'm asking for.'"

So you were like, "Jamaican murder rate?"

"Because we will kill you 10 times faster than you'll kill us."

So you Googled Jamaican murder rate and-

Versus Chicago-

... and exchange, and exchange rate

... murder rate.

You were like-

Yeah

... "It is not worth it." [laughs]

I did the computation and I realized I'm 10 times more likely to get killed by them than they are by me.

Oh, man.

And the tip is, like, 10 cents in total.

[laughs]

[laughs] Oh, man. Oh, fuck. I, I won't lie. I know it's an ignorant point of view to have, but I, I never understand it when I'm in Jamaica. So Jamaica-

What don't you understand?

Jamaicans will warn me.

Mm-hmm.

So when I was in Jamaica, um, it's funny. Our flight was disrupted, so we were supposed to fly, uh, out of Montego. And then they were like, "No, you gotta go to Kingston so you can get out, 'cause flights are changed." And then when we were in Kingston, someone was like, y- they're like, "You don't wanna, you don't wanna go anywhere."

[laughs] They say you don't wanna leave.

They're like, "Don't leave."

being Black, it's... It almost like, it goes with anything. You can either blend in or stick out. So when you're in Europe and you're Black, you're like, "Ah, I stick out." But when you're in anywhere where there's Black people, in Africa, in, in America, you're like, "Yeah." 'Cause I make the mistake of speaking to African Americans like they know what I'm saying. [laughs]

Like they understand you.

Like exact- like they know what I'm saying. I'm like, " [clicking] "

Eugene will literally do that, by the way.

Yeah.

[laughs] 'Cause, 'cause your brain doesn't-

Eugene will switch, Eugene will switch into African languages all the time-

Doesn't make the connection

... with African Americans.

It doesn't compute.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I, I, I get that.

Eugene, there was one day we were with s- and then you said to a guy, you were like, " [clicking] "

Yeah. [laughs]

I get, I g-

And then I said, "Eugene-

I get that

... he doesn't understand-

Yeah

... what you're saying."

I get that, 'cause when I just saw a glimpse of you on the screen in the back room-

Yeah

... I didn't know you were South African until you spoke.

You need to stop speaking.

I can tell, I can tell in time.

You know what I mean, though?

Yeah.

I can always tell. I can always identify the Africans. It's just I can, but, like, sometimes in that first moment-

Mm

[laughs]

[laughs]

Don't let them niggas show up in South Africa-

Oh, man

... and never go home.

[laughs]

Uh, no, but you're right, though, w- about, uh, going to places and not realizing that, um, your, like, worldview from home-

Yeah

... doesn't apply. Like, I was in Montreal one time and, uh, walking down the street, talking to my buddy on the phone, FaceTime, got a French girl with me. I'm stunting. I'm like, "Yeah, man, you know, niggas out here, I'm real international. You know, I'm doing my thing." You know what I'm saying? And a man rode by me on a, on a bicycle, on a road bike, and he's just pedaling, and I'm stunting. And the man just, whoosh, grabbed the phone-

The phone

... and kept riding, fast as hell. I'm so s- so stunned, you know what I'm saying? Because this is a very beautiful place. I'm thinking I can physically overpower anybody that tries to rob me in this place. Um, but I wasn't ready for the crackhead on the bike. And so I chase him, can't catch him. You know what I mean? I, I was going on this wild goose chase to try to find my phone. I'm doing Find My iPhone. I trace my shit to a park full of crackheads on bikes, so many crackheads on bikes. I can't distinguish who-

Your crackhead.

I don't know who's the one that's... My crackhead, literally.

Yeah.

Exactly. I don't know which crackhead is my crackhead.

Your nigga. [laughs]

See, this, this is when it gets racist.

Oh, sorry.

It's, it's-

Sorry. Sorry

... but, uh, so the-

Sorry

... so one of them came out, and he-

We're fine now too. [laughs]

[laughs] So the one, one of them came out, you know, and, and I'm like, "Man, this might be the one", you know?

[laughs]

So now I'm racist, you know. I'm like, "This might be the one." And so I'm like, "Man," you know what I'm saying? "Did you happen to... You know what I'm saying? Do you got a iPhone?" You know. And he pulled out, like, a way older iPhone.

Ah.

He's like, "I didn't steal no iPhone. I got... This is a iPhone." Oh, he said, "What kind of iPhone is that?" "I, iPhone 13." He said, "This is iPhone 6, nigga. I'm, I, I'm crazy. Apologize." You know.

[laughs]

get robbed by somebody on a bicycle, it is one of... Because just think of a bicycle, and then the person grabs your phone. You said you were on a FaceTime.

Yes.

So now they're on a FaceTime with this person. [laughs]

I never thought about that. [laughs]

So one minute you as Vic are like, "Man, let me tell you what I'm doing out here."

Whoosh.

And then whoosh.

[laughs]

"Let me tell you what I'm doing out here."

[laughs]

[laughs]

Now they're riding away, but you're in the background chasing them. Nobody looks cool-

Yeah

... chasing something that is way faster than them. So when you chase another human being-

It also looks unrealistic.

Very whimsical.

You'll never catch a bicycle.

Yeah, when you, when you chase another, another human being, you both are running. When someone's riding a bicycle and you're-

And you're running

... chasing the bicycle, you just look like a child left behind by something.

Mm.

Like, all your swag-

It was like a clown show, for sure.

It is.

It was a clown show.

It's gone.

All, all my swag with the girl was kind of-

It's gone

... evaporated.

But I love that she stuck with you, man.

a question.

[laughs]

Does, does, does Ghana feel like a version of home now? 'Cause you go, you go there quite a lot.

Mm.

Yeah, Ghana does, man. You know what I mean? I started going to Ghana when I was 11, and so I've, like-

Who, who on your, on your parents side, who's-

My father's Ghanaian.

Yeah.

So father's Ghanaian.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I've been going back to Ghana for more years of my life than not.

Mm.

At this point, I've, like, developed a lot of my own longstanding relationships-

Ah

... beyond my family.

I love that. Yeah.

You know what I mean? And so it definitely, it is home. It's, it's the place I've been most on the planet outside of Chicago and probably LA or something like that, you know?

Wow, that much?

For sure. Definitely outside of America, it's the place I've been the most.

What, what do y- what is the thing you find about Ghana that brings you a piece of home that you can't achieve otherwise? I, I, I ask this question selfishly because I've, I've started realizing ... I was talking to Eugene about this the other day. We were walking around in, in Johannesburg, in South Africa, and I was saying to Eugene-

'Cause you know, we thug like that.

[laughs] You told this guy the worst thing.

We walk around. [laughs]

I, I know it is kind- it is thugged out in Johannesburg.

So we, we were walking and, and-

We were walking Hillbrow

... and I was, I was saying to Eugene-

'Cause we're not scared of anyone.

[laughs] I'm scared.

and it's much slower paced. Like America, we are confined by time. Like, we're obsessed with it. We schedule our days in 30-minute increments. Like, I've got this meeting, then I have this Zoom call, and then I have this lu- lunch, then I have a breakfast. You know what I mean? I have so many scheduled events. Try that in Ghana. [laughs] You know what I'm saying? Like, it's not gonna happen 'cause people don't operate like that. People are not beholden to time in the same way.

Yeah.

A nigga be six hours late for something, and that's just, like, regular. You know, it's-

It's not even late

... so that's kind of on time.

Yeah.

It's just something to expect. And as I'm spending time in Ghana, there's always a process of, like, low-key decolonizing my mind as it pertains to time to allow things to happen at their own pace more and to stop being so rigidly connected to, to my ideas of, of time and schedule.

Hmm.

And it becomes more of a, it becomes more of a peaceful experience.

Do you think it made you more chilled as a person?

I think when I'm there, but then I get too chill, and then I try to come, like, eight hours late to some shit, and I miss the whole thing, you know? I, I, I'm still trying to find the balance.

Yeah.

You know? Like, how do I fit in this while still, like, accomplishing shit? Um, it's always a little bit of a, of a tug-of-war, but in general though, I do admire

the way that people in West Africa, people in the Caribbean are not, um, so, yeah, controlled by time.

Mm-hmm.

Like, not so-

Mm-hmm

... in fear of time.

Time.

I feel like Americans live in a constant fear of missing the moment, you know? But being in the moment is, is the way to not miss the moment.

Yeah. Even, even the phrase wasting time I find is one that is often used in America and in the West in a way that isn't used in, at least in my experience, in Africa or in the Caribbean. You, you can't waste time because time's always happening.

Mm.

You don't have it.

Mm.

You, you never have it. So you're either doing with it w- what you please, or you're not doing with it what you-

Mm.

But you cannot waste time, you know? And so-

Can I interject please?

It, it's actually, I was actually gonna-

Is it possible for me to interject?

Yeah. But I was actually gonna say this about you. I was gonna say you'd be proud to know, you know, 'cause you inspire me to read books about things.

Thought to waste time.

No, no, no, you do.

I was like, yeah, yeah. [laughs]

There's a, there's a, there's a book that I read actually that was saying, like, this thing is actually quite real, but it actually goes to, um, the environments that people came from. So-

Mm

... people in Africa, especially in, like, West Africa, Central Africa, et cetera-

Mm-hmm

... the Caribbean never suffered food scarcity due to weather or to time.

Yeah.

So they never needed to develop a relationship with time.

Yes.

Mm.

up in the snow, it's death. So time is more important to Europeans-

'Cause people in Africa and the Caribbean could just go get that avocado-

Yeah, exactly

... at any time.

Yeah.

Planted their faces.

No, but, uh-

Waited many, many decades

... but I thought you would appreciate that, Dave. Sorry, yes.

No, I, I do appreciate that. That is, um-

That's crazy

... that is great.

[laughs]

The, [laughs] the, um-

[laughs]

[laughs]

No, no. The thing, no, the thing that this reminds me of

is yesterday, Trevor-

The whole thing-

Sorry

... reminds you of yesterday

... I'm, no, I'm telling Vic.

Oh.

Yesterday Trevor texted me, and he was like, um, "Let's chat about what we're gonna do with, you know, this podcast," and that whole thing, of today. You know, that kind of thing, 'cause we, yesterday. Then he said in his text, this is related to time. In his text, he said, "I'll call you at 2:30."

I feel like this guy is just using this opportunity-

No, no [laughs]

... to expose me, but let's carry on.

No, no. No, no.

[laughs]

He, no, this is all part of it.

I'm sure. Yes.

He said-

Carry on, Dave.

Yes. No, no, he said-

It, it ends with me being condemned-

No, no, no

... but please, please continue.

No, just where we are, the main character over here said, "I'll text you at 2:30." Then he didn't text at 2:30. Oh, he said, "I'll phone you at 2:30." He didn't phone at 2:30. Then he phoned at 7:30. To your point of Africans, no, really. He phoned at 7:30, which I'm also African, so I didn't, when he said, "I'll text at 2:30," I didn't have that like, "Oh, I'll phone at 2:30." I didn't have that, "Oh," you know, at all because I'm African. But when we did get to 7:30 when he called, if you hadn't called at all, I would've been fine with it. I'd have been like- Well, he didn't call. We'll meet the next day. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

I'll call you at 5:00 to talk about tomorrow. I didn't call you, I'll just assume he's doing something, then we meet the next day. You know, you get where I am as a person? Cool. But then at 7:30, 'cause I've known this guy for many years, so at 7:30 he called me. He did call. But he called... You know when someone sort of, like, calls you when, because they, when they know that you won't, like, really be able to pick up the phone?

[laughs]

[laughs]

No, this is bullshit.

No, no, no, no.

Yo, what?

No, no, no. Wait, wait.

What if they hang up after two rings?

a good place to explain.

Why I got a new iPhone?

No. This is, people have very different experiences in life.

Mm-hmm.

And I think one of my gifts has always been being able to understand that everyone is consuming the same reality from their perspective.

Mm-hmm. [laughs]

Don't make it deep. Don't make it deep.

Let me explain why.

He gonna say I have ADHD-

No

... or whatever he tells everybody to have.

[laughs] No, let me explain. So-

What if he says AIDS?

I love [laughs] I love, I love your experience.

[laughs]

I'll tell you what happened. This is actually f- this is actually great. It's, it's a very poignant thing to chat about, you know? I feel like Vic will even have great opinions on this. So you are correct, I said to you, "I'll call you at 2:30."

Why did you say 2:30?

Because that is when my previous engagement was gonna end. So I knew, so I knew my thing ends at 2:00.

Oh, you wanted to catch momentum.

So I was like, my thing ends at 2:00. I'll, I can make the call by 2:30. Okay?

And then also remember-

No, no-

... this is unprompted. I'm not asking for this.

Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

He's not asking for 2:30.

I, I, he's, I'm not-

I'm not asking for this call.

He saw a 12:00 to 2:30.

Yes, but wait.

Do you know what I mean? I'm not asking for this call.

to connect with people, do you ever fear its, its ability to disconnect you from people? And, and, and I, I mean this-

100%

... you know, so you actually got me. Uh, April 1st, you put out the video. I remember being very sad.

Hmm.

He, Vic put out a video saying he was quitting Instagram.

Oh, when he was playing with us.

And he was quitting speaking publicly.

Yeah, I was upset.

And it was, and it was slides.

Yeah.

Each slide I got more emotional.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[laughs]

I got more sad.

Yeah.

He's talking about all the money he's lost for being outspoken.

Yes.

He's talking about how, you know, it's not worth it anymore. He's just gonna go into a hole and not say anything in soci- Yo, I was deep.

Yeah.

And I was feeling it.

Yeah.

And then the last slide, he was like, "April Fools".

Yeah.

I didn't appreciate that.

[laughs]

'Cause I thought at some point we just get over April Fools, but not Vic Mensa.

That was fun every time.

[laughs]

But no, but you know, you know what it did? It, it honestly did bring up in me... I, I thought to myself, I was like, yeah, but, like, you're putting out these videos at a pretty frequent rate now.

Hmm.

yeah. Yeah

... of your words online? You know, I think part of, part of it for me is definitely doing my best to not be too attached to response, which can be difficult, but, um, to try to stay driven by message, you know what I mean? Try to, try to stay driven-

Mm

... by purpose. I think about a time I was on your show, like must've been 10 years ago.

Yeah, on The Daily Show.

You know, when I came back from Palestine, and I was on your show speaking about my experience in Palestine and in the West Bank, and how it reminded me of, uh, American racism and Jim Crow. And, um, that was early in the common parlance of discussions about Palestine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know what I mean? For, um, for the American populace, you know what I'm saying? And yeah, at that time I experienced a lot of blowback, not particularly for being on your show or what I said on there, but generally for speaking my mind.

Mm-hmm.

You know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

About, about what I felt.

Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. Shut up. Who are you? It's, yeah, it's the usual. Yep.

You know, and the like people in my team and in my circle that I didn't know felt very differently-

Yeah

... about that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Um, and, and for sure throughout the years there's been so much fallout and consequence and loss of money and loss of opportunities for, um, for being outspoken, like for saying the things that I believe. But ultimately I have tried the opposite, you know what I mean? I've tried to like muzzle myself and, and be silent at times when I knew I had something to offer of value, and that was pretty soul crushing too. You know, that, that didn't like, that didn't lead me in the right direction either. And I feel like maybe I've started to f- feel that leaning into purpose and like being driven by my purpose serves me. You know, that it's bet- it's better for me, it's better for the world. And if people fragment it, if people misunderstand it, if people misuse it, um, that's gonna be a part of it. I'm sure there's been so many times when things that you've said-

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah

... have been manipulated and-

Yeah, I mean, look at what WhatsApp did to me with my friend.

WhatsApp is the culprit. [laughs]

Just that alone. I mean, look at it. We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break. You know what I love about spring? Everything just feels fresh again. The weather shifts, people start going outside more, and suddenly you feel like you should be eating something that didn't come out of a packet. That's why I like going to Whole Foods Market this time of year. Whole Foods Market is your go-to destination to celebrate the fresh flavors of spring with seasonal produce at its juiciest, plus limited time flavors throughout the store. This is the time to get together and share vibrant finds with your loved ones, and you feel it as soon as you walk in. You've got organic bagged salad kits, fresh produce, potatoes, parsnips, radishes, spring onions, artichokes, all the things that make you feel like you've got your life together. And then of course you go in for that and you leave with things you didn't plan for, like a peach apricot rose Italian soda, or those 365 by Whole Foods Market strawberry pretzels that somehow disappear before you even get home. And if you're hosting or even just showing up somewhere trying to impress people, the bakery has you covered. The mango yuzu Chantilly cake, the strawberry shortcake, these are the kind of desserts where people don't ask questions, they just assume that you know what you're doing. And the nice thing is, there are deals throughout the store, especially on 365 brand items, so you can feel responsible while still treating yourself a little, because that's really what spring is about. Starting fresh and then rewarding yourself immediately. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring and save at Whole Foods Market.

You know what, one of the things I appreciate about what you do though specifically is, uh, and I, I, I hope I can frame this correctly. I feel like some people create things online so that they can create more things online. And I, the reason it's hard to articulate is because people go like, "But isn't everyone trying to make things to make things?" No. I think of it like this. Okay, politicians, especially in America I find, spend all their time or a lot of their time campaigning so that they can be reelected-

Mm

... so that they can campaign so that they can be reelected-

[laughs]

... so that they can campaign so that they can be reelected.

It's about delivering the services and the promises. Yeah.

Then I go, "Wait, wait, wait. What was the point of getting into power if you never use that power for the people who voted you in?"

Right.

And they go, "As soon as I'm in, yeah, and I, uh, fundraising, I've gotta get more money and, and I've gotta get this," and I, yeah, I go, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, but why?" "Well, so that I can get reelected" So that you can do something. You forget the initial purpose of why you came in. It would've been better for you to come in for a single term, do your damnedest to deliver, and just leave. It would've been better for you and it would've been better for, for your constituents. I think there's also something that's happening online where- There used to be a world where people would create things and put them online because they wanted to create things. But then now people create so that people can view them so that they can create so that they can view them so that they can create so they can-

Mm

... you, you know what I mean?

Mm.

So that's when people become parodies of themselves.

Mm-hmm.

They become caricatures of themselves. They, they, they do things to, to, like, make

you feel a certain way, right?

Yeah.

I don't say this to gas you up. Honestly, I never feel like you're trying to spark outrage. I never feel like you are trying to make something go viral. I never feel like you are ... Like, I don't, I don't feel riled up by your comments, both for you or against you.

Yeah.

And what I mean by that is I don't watch your videos and go, "Yeah, get them Vic," and I don't watch your videos and go like, "I can't believe Vic said..." I just listen to you and I find myself going, "Damn, what an interesting way to phrase that. That's a, that's an interesting lens that he applied on this topic," or, "That's, that viewpoint, wow, I like the way he put that together with..." But, but, but, like, is that ... Am I, am I reading that correctly?

Yeah, no, I-

Or is it just-

... I, I appreciate that immensely coming from you, man. I'm, I'm just, like, a, I'm a consummate fan of your comedy and, and really your perspective. 'Cause I feel like you're somebody that shows me that mediums are just that. They're, they're avenues with which to express what is contained by the human being.

Oh, damn, thank you.

You know what I'm saying? And that, like, comedy is a medium for sure.

Yeah.

And then late night TV was its own medium.

Yeah.

You know, even this is its own medium. Um, I was watching, like, uh, your newest special, um, on, on Netflix, and I was just like, I was so glad to, to be watching you as a comedian.

Oh, thank you, man.

You know what I'm saying?

Thank you.

Because, like, I'm just a such a huge fan of you as a comedian, and that medium, you know what I'm saying? That, that way of looking at the world and dissecting it. Fucking Martin Luther King realizing he fought for [laughs] bland chicken.

[laughs]

So good. Um, and, uh, and the purpose of it, you know what I'm saying? Is eve- Like, as I've been doing the things I've been doing right now online, it's really in a way been my way of, um, dissecting how I see the world, but also, like, working on writing jokes and, like, making fun of it and having-

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right

... you know, ha- having, um, genuine conversation the way I would talk to a friend. You know? 'Cause the world is fucking on fire. It's crazy, but we Black people, man, you know what I'm saying, we make everything fun. We ain't just, like, sitting around suffering about it.

No.

You know what I mean? I'm sure niggas even on the plantation. Yeah, that's, I guess that's what Joy in the Trenches was about.

That's, that's, that's literally what it's about.

For sure. Niggas on... You, you made a-

Yeah

... plantation joke.

Yeah.

Like, the fucking overseer comes and you, you picking the cotton while he there. As soon as he leaves, you say, "You motherfucking dirty ass-"

where's my friend?

I was like, "Who are you?" [laughs]

[laughs]

Wet ass, dirty ... [laughs]

Dirty dog smelling ass nigga. [laughs]

But, you know, something... I've realized that once, purpose is a selfish pursuit. It just when people get to experience it from you, they think there's more to it than there actually is. So for example, the example that you made about politicians.

Oh.

Sometimes you-

Shit, wait, hold on. Say that again.

So purpose is a selfish-

Purpose is a selfish pursuit

... pursuit. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So when people-

That's an interesting idea

... see me and they enjoy it, they start thinking, they make it that, they make the result of your, of your purpose-

Like it was always for them

... it was always for them.

Okay.

So when a, when a politician is campaigning, just maybe they like being on the road. Just maybe they like the staff meetings and the late campaign and the photo shoots, but they were never about service delivery. They were never about making sure that you get the water, but we see it in South Africa.

This is true. No, this is very true.

These politicians that are good at rallies, and they-

Yeah, they-

... good at the campaign

... yeah, they love the life.

Yes, but they never thought they'll have to actually sit down and understand what the budgets are,

how many people-

How do you guys feel about Julius Malema?

W-

'Cause-

I mean, it's-

Yeah, from-

That's like how long is a piece of string.

[laughs]

No, no, no, I'll, I'll tell you why. So the first thing I'll say is-

I see him from my American perspective, not knowing so much.

Okay, I'd love to know what-

Yeah, tell us. Yeah

... tell us how you see-

Let me tell you

... how you see him and then we'll tell you.

My nigga.

Yeah. [laughs]

[laughs] Just don't say it.

[laughs]

You just don't know what you're doing with that weapon. It's a brilliant weapon.

For, sorry, again-

A tool

... for con-

[laughs]

... for context, before you answer the Julius Malema, uh, question, for those who don't know, Julius Malema is one of the, like, people that people point to, to say that he is promoting the white genocide.

Oh, yeah.

Oh.

Julius Malema, I w- I would say, is, like, our most controversial publicly-

Of course

... and internationally known-

he's, he's the one that is, um, fighting back by any means necessary. That's the feeling, the sense-

Okay. Yeah

... that, that I get from him. When I was in South Africa, something that broke me was to realize that white people are maybe about 10% of the population-

Yeah, I think even less. Yeah

... in, in South Africa, maybe even less.

Uh-huh.

And hold 90% of the wealth.

Mm-hmm.

Then I think about America, where Black people are about 10%, 13%, and- Once again, white people hold 90% of the wealth.

Mm-hmm.

And being there, being on the continent, you know what I mean, in this cradle of fucking civilization, and seeing that, that freedom was so partial.

Hmm.

You know me? And that the, uh, the ownership of, of the land and the wealth, um, was squarely not in the hands of the Africans was riveting. You know what I mean? The, the, the woman I was with at the time, she had to, like, check me at a, at a point in time. She's like, "You can't just get mad at every white person you see." [laughs]

Damn, that's funny.

You know? And I'm like-

That's funny

... I'm like, "But why the fuck you niggas own everything?" You know?

Yeah.

And I, and I, and I'm livid, you know what I mean? And then I see Julius Malema, and he's like, "Kill the boar."

[laughs]

"The farmer." [laughs] You know? And I'm like, "That's my nigga." You know? My nigga.

My nigga. [laughs]

I'm my nigga.

I'm my nigga. [laughs]

Yeah, okay. This guy's with it, okay.

So-

So tell me how you guys feel.

All right. So, and Eugene, I mean, you'll interject anyway.

Yeah, yeah.

This, this is, this is how I see it. I think Julius Malema, in terms of his rhetoric, has one of the most progressive rhetorics that I've ever come across, and he, and he, he's inspired one of the more necessary conversations, not just in South Africa, but on the continent and in the world as a whole. And the argument, 'cause there's people who won't know

it, is if I distill it down, it is fundamentally this: Can you claim to give somebody their freedom if you do not give them the tools to actually exercise that freedom?

Hmm.

Right? And, and i- if I was to use an analogy here, oftentimes what I think he's speaking about in terms of restitution is he'll go, South Africa's racism, you don't have to go far back. You know? You, you don't have to go back, like, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years.

[laughs]

It's our parents, literally.

Yeah, 20 years.

Like, not, not figuratively. It is literally our parents-

Mm-hmm

... who were the last, like, like, let's say adult victims of apartheid.

Apartheid. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And then we were born in apartheid.

In apartheid. Yeah. We're-

And then we experienced democracy and freedom.

And we grew up outside of it.

Yes.

Yes.

And so we grew up outside of it.

Mm-hmm.

But when you, when you look at that, there are many things that the state stole from Black people and all other people of co- colored people, any, you name it. The state stole these things from them, took that, and gave it to the white population in South Africa.

Mm-hmm.

And many of them, and this is something that I think is important to, to say, many of them unknowingly receiving it.

Yeah.

Which is, which is a part of the conversation people don't really have often. Many white people in South Africa were obscured from the reality of the situation.

Yeah.

So they were going, "We get good roads. We get free schools. We get unemployment. Seems like the government's doing a good job."

Opportunities.

And then the government would just go, "Hey, just so you know, man, these Black people are crazy out here. We're holding them back." And the only place they got their reality from was from the government. And so in the same way, it's funny, I remember when I went to the, uh, African American History Museum, one of the things you see, um, MLK talk about is he, in all of his writings, when he's trying to get journalists to come out and cover what's happening, he's saying in his writing, and I, I paraphrase this because I don't know if I'll say it accurate, but he says, "Because I truly believe when our white brothers and sisters see what is being done, w- see what is being done by the American government to Black people-

Yeah

... I believe that they will stand up with us." So I f- I find it fascinating that even in America, MLK, and then in South Africa, white people were being, were, uh, were obscured from the truth. The, the truth was being obscured from them, right? So they receive these things. The government steals from Black people to make white people live a life that is as, as good and as easy as possible.

all agree that this was terrible.'" And you're like, "Wait, wait. That, that's it?"

Yeah.

[laughs]

It's like, "No, no, no, let's, let's start from here now."

Hmm.

"We do agree this was terrible, so let's, let's, let's move forward from here. But we don't wanna take it back from that person because, I mean, two wrongs don't make a right."

This is why I love Julius Malema though.

Right. But the issue is-

Hmm

... and this is the issue I have with many politicians, rhetoric versus action.

Mm-hmm.

Maybe I'm an outlier in saying this. Maybe I'm not. I think Julius Malema and many other politicians like him, not just in South Africa, but on the African continent, have fantastic rhetoric.

Mm-hmm.

But the actions that they participate in do not necessarily do what they need to do to liberate the people that they're trying to liberate.

So I think, I think mostly it's a timing thing. So there's a strange thing about South African history that if you tell it the way it is-

[laughs]

... you run the risk of being an apologist for the Afrikaner apartheid system.

Oh, that's interesting.

Because it starts in three parts. So the first part was the British, who oppressed the Black people, the Khoisan indigenous people of the country, and the Afri- and, and the, and the Black people.

Right.

And then when the British were like, "Okay, now you can have your own republic," and they left, they left the whole system to the Afrikaner. Then the Afrikaner started-

The Dutch at the time

... the Dutch.

Yeah.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

So they were like, "Okay, now we're gonna run this thing our way." And then they took the system that the British had and gave it a name. So before, it was just colonization, and then they called it apartheid. But now they were like, "Okay, now we're gonna promote two races here. Colored people will be the second-

Yeah

... and then we'll be the first one, which is the Afrikaner." But even in the Afrikaners, not all Afrikaners benefited from apartheid. There was elitism as well. It went with surnames-

Mm

was because they were not protected by privilege. Those were working class neighborhoods-

Oh

... where they put a stadium here and a school here. So the integration happened there first. So it was harder to penetrate the big-ass mansion suburbs that the elite people that owned the mines and the land and the farms were living in, and it will never happen in our country. So the second part about what I find, which is a weird social experiment with Julius Malema and the EFF, is revolution can never happen in a democratic society, and that kind of rhetoric of revolution. Remember that these guys grew up in the ANC of Peter Mokaba, who was a firebrand, who was the next spoken-up person after Nelson Mandela, and he just happened to be a young person when Nelson Mandela was released, and they grew up under him. So their rhetoric about what democracy... I mean, what revolution is and what freedom is, was mistimed. Because in the middle of democracy you can't shout those words-

Oh, that's interesting

... while you yourself are in a Range Rover and a Mercedes Benz and living in old historic suburbs and your children are enjoying private schools. So his voice got lost in there. The second part about that group was he was not a lone wolf. There were two other guys who were involved in the building of the party that people liked as if it was a boy band. So there was, uh, the academic, which is Mbuyisa, Dr. Mbuyiseni Ndlozi. And there was another person who loves finance and academic, which is Floyd Shivambu. And those people left the party, and he was left alone to become a dictator.

Julius Malema, yeah.

Yes. But the funny part about that is there was an inquiry now in South Africa, and there was a parliamentary panel of it, which he, everyone expected to be the chair of it. He refused to be the chair of it, and he recused himself from a lot of testimonies of corrupt policemen that involved him.

Mm-hmm.

So he's losing the fight over and over. And right now, two weeks ago, he was found guilty of discharging a firearm in a rally. And he was charged, and he's gonna face time. So-

Julius Malema

... yeah, he was sentenced

to five years.

Well, he said, "The farmer."

Yeah, then he go bra, bra, bra, brr, pa.

And then he shot the guy. Yeah.

Brr, pa.

That's my favorite part of the song.

[laughs] Well, yeah.

Now he's now serving time for it.

Yeah. So if, if he, if, if he was convicted and charged for, for helping a person who was being mistreated because of their race, I would be like, "Okay."

Yeah.

But for breaking the Firearms Control Act, discharging a machine gun in a-

See, this is funny. This is funny.

Mm.

This brings me to one of my other realizations about South A-

Mm-hmm

... South Africa. It's so different.

Yeah.

Uh, I was learning about the hip hop artists, and they were like, "Man, in South Africa, being a hip hop artist and, uh, being a gangster is actually, like, a demerit to your career because it makes you seem, uh, less commercially viable." Because to hear about, uh, a well-known public figure going to jail for saying, "Brr, pa," and discharging a firearm-

That's so funny

... this connects to things I like about artists. [laughs]

This is so funny

... this connects to things that seem very familiar to me.

Yeah.

Like, man, South Africa was- showed me so much, bro. I was like, uh, first of all, I just think the entire idea of Afrikaners is hilarious. So you just a white nigga that put a extra A in your name? [laughs]

[laughs]

And now you think you're an African? You're fucking Dutch. Like-

And French

... go- and French, and go the fuck home to those two very distinct places. I look at fucking Elon Musk's, uh, loose-skin, Sith Lord-ass father-

[laughs]

... who sits there and he says-

point-

[laughs] In, uh-

... I think, I think the key thing that we lose in a lot of these conversations, and that's funny enough I think why many of your vis- videos have res- resonated with people, is when you peel back-

Yeah

... metaphorically and literally the layers-

Mm-hmm

... class is the one thing that emerges constantly and consistently.

And it's not going anywhere, yeah.

True.

Do you get what I'm saying?

Yeah.

True.

So to your point, race being a fiction, it's like, yeah, it is, it is... You know, it's a subjective reality.

Yeah.

So race doesn't exist, but it also does.

But racism is, is very real.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

The effects of race are very real.

Completely.

Yeah.

And race is a subjective, amorphous-

There you go.

Mm-hmm.

There you go. But class, there's a, there's a, um, an English writer who said it beautifully one day. And sh- and she said, she said, "I cannot wait for the United States to finish its race war so that it can realize that it was fighting about class all along."

Class all along, yeah.

The entire time. But race was the, was the justification-

Yeah. No, and it's brilliant

... for the creation of the, of class distinctions.

Class will always look for a thing.

"My name is Jack, I live in a shack. I might be Black, but I got a six-pack."

Did he-

And, uh, yeah, he had... That was his song. I remember it vividly.

No, a six-pack?

Um, oh, he was so hungry he had a six-pack.

Damn.

You know what I'm saying? And I was like-

Mm

... th- he's really shucking and jiving.

Damn.

And it was crazy-

Yeah

... though, because I was like, damn, for a Black man to, to, to make it, to put food in his body in, in this society, I'm seeing shucking and jiving on a street level, and even the richest nigga is shucking and jiving though, like-

Mm-hmm

... y- to achieve this momentous wealth. And that, that shit kind of, it frustrated me, man.

But I argue, though. But I argue, though, those are two spikes from a multi-pronged, uh, world because South Africa's, I mean, far from perfect. Don't get me wrong. But I will say only thanks to traveling I have come to appreciate how many more paths are starting to appear for Black people.

Yeah.

So there are, there are Black people who've, let's not even call it a fortune, 'cause not every person has made a fortune. There are Black people who are just, like, doing it th- you know, a, a completely different way. Like, you know, uh, I can think of, like, a woman who started out selling, you know, what we call a magwinya, but let's say, like, a version of, like, a fried donut type thing.

Mm-hmm.

On the street corner, selling it out of a bucket, doing it. And then you go back there today and you're like, "Oh, wow, now she has, like, a, like, a store and an enterprise-

Mm

... and she's running this thing." And, and then on the other hand you have accountants and you have lawyers. You still have a guy on the street begging and doing this.

Mm-hmm.

And I, I, I'm not saying it's perfect, but what I, what I have appreciated about it is, is that it's, it's sort of, it's reminded me of the class story as opposed to the race story. And, and what I mean by that is even in South Africa... So you see what you said earlier in the conversation about Ghana, where they'll say, "Ah, white man," and they have a name for it. What did you say it is?

Obroni.

Say again?

Obroni.

Yeah, obroni.

In, in Nigeria it's oyinbo.

Oyinbo.

South Africa was just built on a lot of systemic corruption as well. Like, a lot of stuff was given to people and businesses were given to people that didn't deserve it, and as soon as someone gets caught, the whole value chain doesn't get caught. So for example, in South Africa when apartheid ended, a lot of buildings were given to people who were literally children who didn't know what they were doing. They were just given these build- these title deeds of these buildings. So as they grew up as adults, they end up inheriting these buildings-

Yeah

... owning them. So when the state wants the building they have to buy the building from them, right? So now you see it with, um, people who are got, are caught, like for example, there's a, there's the system called the tendering system where we come and then we bid. Whoever has the lowest price gets to supply the goods.

They have it here in America as well.

You have it as well?

Yeah, they have it in the US.

So the toilet paper story, he's probably a tenderpreneur. He probably put in a bid and then-

Yeah

... someone tipped him, and then he got the thing. But the thing is what happened with that money is the money buys houses, buys cars, but the dealerships are not owned, luxury dealerships are not owned by Black people. Luxury estate agents are not Black people. So the money still circulates amongst the same people again.

The story always ends with the people people want it to end with. It's a-

Yes.

You know, it reminds me of Miami. I always found it interesting that, like, every documentary that would teach you about the drug trade in Miami-

Yeah

... will, will talk about the money that drug dealers were spending.

Mm-hmm.

You know? These Colombian drug lords and these-

Mm-hmm.

But they never talk about the fact that the money went somewhere.

Yes.

Corruption needs a cycle.

Yep.

You can't be corrupt alone. Just, you know when people will be like-

Yes

... "Africa, Africa's so corrupt."

Yeah.

And I'm like, "With who?"

You ever seen that video of the so-called African politician who was like, "Corruption is not bad. It is only bad if I'm not

a part of it."

Yeah.

"If I am a part of that corruption, I defend it."

Yeah. [laughs]

Yeah. But corruption, corruption-

Yeah

... with, corruption cannot be alone.

Yeah.

So when people go, "Africa is corrupt" I'm always like-

Yeah

... "Yes, but with who?"

Yes.

You look at the stories. There'll be corruption.

Mm-hmm.

There'll be an arms deal that's, that's corrupt with a French company.

Mm-hmm.

Like a massive... We're not talking about, like, like, a mom and pop store.

Mm-hmm.

Talking about, like, a French arms contractor.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It'll be with an American company. It'll be with, like a... Then you're like, oh, okay. There are outside forces that are really powerful that know they can come into Africa- Do deals with certain people, but then leave the corruption story-

Yeah

... in Africa

And, and, but still be the puppet master. I mean, that's the-

Yeah, yeah, yeah

... that's the-

Yeah

Oh, yeah, for sure

... the whole long-term strategy is to be able to keep the system of corruption going without having to be the face of it.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

for the change-

Mm-hmm

... and the fact that they were gonna be freed from this dictator. And then Trump turns around, and he's like, "No, no, no, no, no. American companies can come in and do business again."

"And we're gonna own the oil."

Yes. And that's cool.

"We're gonna be taking care of the oil."

And we're happy.

And we have the oil. Yeah, I, I, I agree with you.

And then you go, "Okay, but what about the democracy side?" And he's like, "Eh, look, man, the point is American companies can come in and make the money." Same thing with Iran.

Mm.

You go, "Why are you there? What are you actually doing there?" And any time he has a hint of optimism, look at what the optimism is about. You go, "Is it about the nuclear, uh, enrichment that they might have?" He's like, "Yeah, yeah. The point is the strait will be open, and we're gonna be doing this together. It's business, baby. W- uh, we're back. It's b- it's bus- " And you're like, "Oh, you..." That's why I say I don't know if he does it... I think he does it unknowingly.

Mm.

He doesn't understand how valuable the farce was.

For sure.

Yeah.

Does that make sense?

That's a good, good one.

Because he's not-

Mm-hmm

... aligned with, um, with the same-

No

... decorum of the-

No

... political machine.

Of the people.

No.

So he-

And class of people, yeah

... he recognizes that, you know, he can manipulate these markets, and he can make a massive steal-

Yeah

w- for the series," 'cause it's gotta, it's gotta be tied. You won Venezuela.

[laughs] Won Venezuela, won, yeah.

Lost Iran, then the Cuban series. So then sometimes I think that, that the world should help Cuba so when it comes to the final, you know what I mean? Then-

But no one will.

Sorry?

No one will.

Yeah, because Cuba represents something that's so challenging and so dangerous to the supremacy of imperialism, and they represent the nigga they just couldn't kill. Like, Cuba has defied American supremacy-

Mm

... for so long, and to be so close.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And Cuba has sent thousands of doctors to Africa-

Yeah

... and sent soldiers to Angola, and sent fighters to accompany, like, uh, Amilcar Cabral in Guinea. Like, I met with OGs that had photographs of them with weapons in the jungle-

Damn

... that had stood side by side with Kwame Nkrumah, you know what I mean, and rocked with Patrice Lumumba, and they're 90 miles from Florida. You know what I mean? And so the world can't come to Cuba's defense because Cuba has defied the idea that the American way is better for too long. You know what I mean?

Hmm.

They stand for something so significant, and it's interesting, though, because when I'm there, the official policy that was laid out by, uh, Lester Mallory in, like, 1960, an American, uh, diplomat, was to bring about, um, I'm paraphrasing, suffering, destruction, and starvation to the people of Cuba to the point that they revolt against their own and overthrow the government.

Right.

That was the official stated policy. And so much time has passed, and so many people in Cuba have been born under these current conditions that many of them only blame their own government.

Hmm.

Many of them don't even consider the American sanctions. Let-

As being part of the issue.

Never-

Yeah

... never mind the fact that fucking American sanctions, not just in Cuba, but around the world over the past 50 years have killed, like, I don't know, like, 50 million people. It's some astronomical number of people that have died-

Yeah

... from American sanctions. Uh, but once again, that shadowy puppet master effect of being able to circumvent and add in suffering, starvation, and destruction through a third party, uh, like, type of manipulation, it leaves the people feeling like it's their fault. It's very similar to the way that Africans will feel, uh, Africans often will be like, "Well, what about the corruption that," you know what I mean? "That we are corrupt."

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We'll feel that.

I know exactly what you mean.

And it's, it, it always breaks my mind because it does two things. On the one hand I go, it's all unraveling right now in the world. I th- I think we, we live in a time that is unlike many other times-

Yeah

... in that there is no one central narrative that anyone controls anymore. And while I'm happy about it, it also terrifies me because- I don't believe that anyone was, like, let's say, telling the truth about their country or central power, but I also don't think the world can survive if everyone believes nothing and nobody's a good guy. And, like, do you know what I mean?

Mm.

If every government's bad and everyone is bad and everyone is not doing the right thing, then what incentive do we have to be part of anything?

Yeah. Or even outspoken. I think, um, there's enough people who with ... who are supposed to have opinions and who have a platform that are having too much of a good time within the rottenness of the system. So if Nelson Mandela, for example, was having a shitty time-

Yeah

... and he says, "My people are also having a shitty time," we're all having a shitty time.

Yeah.

So if the people with opinions are also like, "I can also take a business flight to New York and I have an S class," and, and, and, and those voices get stifled. So I think that's what's happening around the world right now, is there's an outlier once in a while, someone who's doing well and has an opinion, and can influence those with opinions to also have more opinions. But there are those who don't have a platform, who are not having a good time, who can't say much and do much as well. So I think we have to give balance to that. There's enough information out there for people to make up their own minds, but I think when people are faced with the day-to-day struggles, it's very hard for them to turn on the news and feel sorry for people who are being bombed far away from where they are.

What do you, what do you think changed? Because when I look back, especially at American musicians and actors even-

Mm

... this is literally how I grew up. I grew up watching, you know, the stories about race and class-

Mm-hmm

... and all that, oftentimes through the lens of, like, American artists.

Mm.

You know, and then there were obviously the ones before my time. But when I think of, like, the Nina Simones and the Muhammad Alis and the ... When I, when I watch those interviews, I go, "Damn."

Mm-hmm.

'Cause I mean, Dave, like, we were on The Daily Show, but have you ever watched those interviews and been like, "Man-

Yeah

... Late Night was no ... Like, Late Night now is like, "So tell me, tell me about the time you, uh, you rode a horse and, uh, ate a banana. That was a crazy time." And then you go back and watch-

Mm-hmm

... Late Night from, like, decades ago, and it's like, "So, um, Mr., Mr. Ali, y- you say that America's inherently racist. What do you mean by that?"

Yeah.

And you're like, "Damn, this is Late Night..." D- do you get what I'm saying?

Yeah, because those influential people were also not having a good time, so when they got a chance to speak, they would actually

raise up-

No, but they were a- they were ... I would argue they were having as good a time as you could be having now. Maybe I'm wrong.

No.

But now, like, you, you are an outlier, whereas back then, I don't know that you would be an outlier per se.

Yeah.

Mm. I think COINTELPRO just been very effective. You know, I mean, Black people have had so many mass movements and elevations of consciousness, and they're always followed by, like, cataclysmic events of biochemical warfare. Like, crack cocaine hits the streets not long after, um, the Black Panther Party is in the footsteps of Malcolm X, like, shifting mental, uh, the, the consciousness of the people. But then you experience crack cocaine, you experience mass incarceration. You get to a point where kids of my generation in Chicago that are in the working class, so many of them are, like, three generations of fatherless homes. I mean, everybody's been incarcerated.

Yeah.

Millions of men incarcerated.

Mm.

And, and so many parents addicted to drugs, like, passing that down to, to their children. That becomes, once again, something that we often feel like we feel ownership of the, of the ways we've been poisoned.

Hm.

And then we, then we put that into our art. We make that our focus. We make that our music. We, we lose sight of, uh, anything other than the suffering and the struggle that, that we experience, and ascending out of it is kind of seen, um, only from a material context. You know what I mean? Because it's so ... It's, it's, it's so dire. The circumstances are so dire-

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

... that it's like, cool, get the S class, get the first class flight. That's it.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying?

Get out the, get out the hood.

Just, just get out the fucking hood.

Yeah, yeah.

That's, that's the only goal, you know what I'm saying? [laughs]

Yeah.

And how, and then from one of the-

We lose, we lose the dream of, of there not being a hood in that way, and then we just wanna get out of it.

Just wanna get out of it. And then you even see, like-

Mm

... ways in which, um, the entertainment industry has, uh, controlled opposition and platformed focused corrosive messaging-

Yeah

... and uplifted those things, um, very intentionally. And, uh, and, and it just becomes pervasive, you know what I mean? Like, that's the, that's the dominant thread of, of conversation. But it doesn't last. I think the pendulum swings.

Yeah, mm-hmm.

You know what I'm saying? I think we're coming back to a time when for sure things are d- even when I was on your show 10 years ago talking about, talking about Palestine, like, that was a real fucking outlier.

It's also, it's also-

You know what, uh-

Yeah?

A thing that I think, um, people don't recognize a lot is that-

Don't say racism is good, like you normally say in our group chats.

Like I normally say. [laughs]

[laughs]

My nigga.

Is the, is the-

[laughs]

I'm a nigga.

[laughs]

[laughs]

It just sounds like I'm a nigga, so it's like-

[laughs] Oh, yeah. That's ... I don't even hear it like that.

That is [laughs] is the, um, is the fact that some of the things that people do-

Are like, I don't know, maybe I won't say this clearly, but we see people, then we go, "People are good." It's feels like people are good. You know, in the world? Yeah. They're just generally good. Then when something bad happens, it almost seems so unfathomable that it's, that you're like, no, either life just sort of like panned out like that- Mm-hmm ... or you are a conspiracy theorist. I remember talking to a friend about this when I first came to the US, long before The Daily Show, long before. I was, I was in, um, I was in Los Angeles, and I was going around doing comedy clubs and nights, and I'd, I would meet these comedians. I remember one night I was at what they call an urban night, you know? So it's a Black comedy night. Now where we're from, that's just the nights. You know what I mean?

At night.

[laughs]

Amani guys everywhere.

[laughs] So it's all, it's all an urban night. [laughs]

With the Ghanaian butler going, "You can go." [laughs]

[laughs] So we're like, "Yo."

"You know where you're going." [laughs]

[laughs] Like, and, and, and we had this conversation. [laughs]

[laughs]

[laughs] And he said something that, man, it really stuck with me. He said, um, he said, he said... He was, we were talking about like conspiracy theories and not believing and, and, you know. And then he said to me, he said, "Man, one of the things I wish, I just wish that African Americans didn't have as many conspiracy theories as they have."

Mm.

And this is a Black man saying this, by the way.

Mm-hmm.

but I sometimes feel like it is, oh man, what's the word I would use? I sometimes feel like it is safer maybe, or, or... Yeah, safe is the only word I could think of. For a society to collectively believe in a lie that moves them in the same direction. Yep. Same direction being the key phrase.

Mm-hmm.

Yes. Than for everyone to just have their own reality. And I, I hold... It, it's a paradox in my brain, and it's something I struggle with because I do not wish for any of us to, quote-unquote, "be living a lie" or be living in a fake world. But then at the same time, if everyone believes their own thing and nobody li- believes anything, I genuinely believe that's when society just disappears as a concept. I mean, if you had a central religion as a central, like, it, ideas. If, if we take away religion being bad or good- Yeah ... but it just goes like, "Guys, let's believe that we should be nice to each other." Yeah. Then you go, okay. As opposed to, "I should be nice to some people or not nice to..." I, I'm saying to your- Yeah, yeah, no, I'm with you. Yeah ... "Let's be nice to each other, otherwise you'll go to hell." Yeah. You know, is like a lie. But, um- It is? [laughs] But, but it could help- It, it actually is a lie ... people move in a- Because accept- It is? Yeah, it's accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. In, in a direction ... that's, that's the thing. It's not about being nice to other people. Should I talk, and this, I don't want to go into this. But I just don't want Eugene to go- You don't? I don't want Eugene to go to hell for the wrong reasons. No, no, no. I don't want to go into this.

You don't?

This is- Go nobly. No, just hold on. [laughs]

[laughs]

[laughs] Yo, this man just said, "Go nobly." [upbeat music] Don't press anything. We've got more What Now? After this. [upbeat music]

What do you, what do you think people get the most wrong about you, then? Like, 'cause I mean the, uh, uh, yeah, I'm, I'll throw it out there. I could be wrong about this, but when I see, like, Vic Mensa, there's so many iterations of you that I've seen over time, as you would with any artist in the public eye. But there's so many different iterations of you. I wonder what people get wrong about you that you see out there, where you're like, "No, that's not me," or, "That's not how I am anymore," or, "That's, that's never been me."

I think people used to think that I was very serious and always wanted to fight somebody.

You did give off that vibe, actually.

Fight over the-

No, no, no. You did give off that vibe.

[laughs] You said I did give off that vibe?

I was one of those. No, no, no. I, I believed that. Yeah.

You thought that I was very serious and I always wanted to fight?

100%. I'm glad you said that, actually.

Even when I came on your show?

Yeah.

Okay, okay.

No, I knew you weren't gonna fight me, but I was like, in this, in the hallway-

Who was gonna win?

... I pray to God nobody bumps this person.

If he fought you.

I pray to God that-

Who was gonna win?

Who? If he fought me?

Yeah, yeah.

No, V- come on, look at this guy.

Yeah, yeah.

He's from Chicago. I'm from-

He from Johannesburg.

No, my friend.

Me?

No, my friend.

Wait.

No. [laughs]

[laughs] Not you. You're not gonna win.

[laughs] Look at this guy.

You know.

You know what I do like about star signs is it comes with a lot of grace.

That's what I'm saying. Pragmatic. Yeah.

Yeah, like, like-

You hear someone, you're like, "Oh, what star sign?"

Yeah, but what I m-

Oh, sure

... what I mean by it is like-

Yeah

... star signs, they, they just, they come with a lot of grace. So someone will say, "Man, this person's stubborn." "Oh, they're Tau- ah, that explains it."

Right.

I think that, is that what you're saying, basically?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. There's, there's, they, they allow people-

To be themselves

... and to ha- and to contain all of themselves.

And they almost-

For sure

... they almost make you feel like the mistakes that pe- the, the flaws that people have are not-

You blame it on-

... of their own doing

... yeah, you blame it on their nature.

Yeah, like, ah, it's the stars-

I, I mean-

... and then you were born on a Tuesday-

Low-key, though

... and a cold night

right now-

I'm Tyler Durden

... you might not be real. You're Tyler Durden.

But it's really the Philly version of him as the intrusive thoughts.

[laughs]

[laughs]

From the African accent. [laughs]

He's like, "Young bull. Crash your shit, young bull."

[laughs]

[laughs]

"Allah whack bar. Crash that fucking car. Allah whack bar, young bull." [laughs]

[laughs]

Oh, man. You know, as we, when we started this conversation, I was wondering why I started gravitating towards your videos, and I understood what it was-

Yeah

... a little bit now after speaking to you. It's you almost cut across from our generation of thinking, 'cause him and I go into these rabbit holes a lot, but obviously we say what we want to say in our way.

Yeah.

We don't say it the way that you say it. But there's two things that you taught me. The one thing that you taught me a long time ago, and it's something that my daughter taught me the other day, is, was giving people grace, one, and understanding when to use your privilege.

Hmm.

'Cause I've, I've always struggled with that. And then I remember when we started doing television, 'cause I started doing television way later than he did, and we did a show together. And there was this one director that was just a douchebag, and I just got angrier and angrier and angrier 'cause in my head, I saw what he was doing as a director as a racist move.

Mm.

And I was ready to quit the show. And I remember you called me to the side, and then you said to me, "Yo, you must understand one thing. They already don't want us here." And I was like, "They're the white people." You're like, "No, them as a crew, they already think that someone better can do this job. It's not about race. If you walk away, you're proving him right, but if you stick around, you're only gonna get better." Then I was like, "So it's not about race?" He was like, "Maybe it might be on the side."

Yeah, I always said you never know.

Yeah, on the side. A tinge of racism.

Oh, it's always about race.

Yeah, but basically-

[laughs]

... the, the guy's sitting there going, "I know someone who could have done this thing better."

Yeah, should have even.

Should have done it better.

Mm-hmm.

And then that never left my mind because I was always ready to act on my intrusive thoughts. If someone steps in front of me, they're gone. And then you gave me that, and I was like, ah, it's using the privilege of knowing-

Mm

... that you can do better-

Mm

... and you can defeat them by just doing better. And there's the other thing that my daughter and I were discussing the other day. It had to do with a place that we booked, and then when we booked the place they said something can't be done. Until when, after booking the place, I showed up and they said, "You can do anything." And then I said, "Don't you feel bad for the fact that now you can do anything after they said you can't do anything?" And she said, "Dad, I would feel bad if we turned it down from an offer." Then I was like, "Why?" She was like, "No, it's not just everyone who can do what they like. And if I can do what I like because of how you do what you like and still get paid from it, then I would be remiss if I didn't take advantage of the fact that we can do what we like."

Hmm.

Then I was like, "Ah."

You know, the poignant thing about what you're saying, Eugene, there-

Yes

... is that, um, Trev, he told you how to, like, improve the world.

Mm-hmm.

'Cause you were like, "Look at the circumstance."

Yep.

"There's a better way to handle this."

Or just a different way, yeah.

A different, yes, a more, more effective way you would say.

Mm-hmm.

And then you, 'cause, like, Trevor's driving, [laughs] and you're like, "You know what? What if you just went into oncoming traffic?"

[laughs]

[laughs]

[laughs]

This is how we were exchanging it.

Ex- exchanging ideas. It's like ...

Yeah, and with your world, you are able to use everything that you've learned throughout life, throughout your art, throughout your career, to carry out these videos. You understand the privilege that you have.

It is the culmination of Vic Mensa, I feel like.

100%.

That's what I would call it.

Like 10 years ago, this Vic wouldn't exist, but with the travel that you've had, the, the work that you've done, the people that you've met, it makes whatever you have to say very poignant because you've lived it.

And if I may add to that, I don't think you should ever take for granted how descrawnifying the message-

Mm

... like, how important that is.

What is descrawnifying?

So oftentimes the things you're talking about are delivered by scrawny people that nobody wants to listen to.

[laughs]

In dashikis.

Privilege.

No, no, you wish it's dashikis. I'm talking about, like, when he's talking about, like, anything, Iran, the petrol dollar-

Yep.

Oh, okay, yes

... um, like race, um, you know, like, the, the, the, the carceral state. You, you name it. A lot of the time, the people who are talking about some of these topics-

Geeks

... are scrawny-

Scrawny

... geeks that nobody-

Old

... wishes-

Mm-hmm

... to, like-

doing that. So when that vessel presents that video, that message, and that story, someone can't be like, "Yeah, but of course you would say this, you, you, coming from Connecticut."

[laughs]

Do you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, of course it's easy for you to say, you, you know, because you, you, you, you're stuck.

I feel like that-

I like what you said about privilege too, man.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, I, I think about privilege a lot, man, and that like, um- One has to be, like, cognizant and conscious of your privileges in order to even have an effective message. You know what I'm saying? In order to have an authentic message, because we all have different privileges. You know what I'm saying? We might be oppressed in ways, be it for our, our race. You know what I mean? We're all Black men on this show right now. Um, but we're also all men, so we also-

Mm-hmm

... have a tremendous amount of privilege-

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

... by being men. You know what I mean? By being able-bodied men. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's so many things that go into it. I, I think about that a lot, especially having, having a white mother and, um, having certain comforts in life that have come along with that, and with my father's occupation, him having the privilege to be the only one in his family to come to America.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? Like, the rest of my family in Ghana, they live in, in, in pretty, in pretty abject poverty. You know what I mean? By, by an American standard, for sure.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? It's f- by... It's far from the bottom of the barrel in-

Yeah

... in their community, but, like, f- by our standard, like-

Yeah

... not having working restrooms and-

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

... roofs caving in and... You know what I mean? Like, working jobs for 50, 60, $70 a month. Like, that's an unfathomable-

Hmm.

Reality

... fucking reality.

Mm-hmm.

You know what I'm saying? But, uh, my dad came to America. He had, he had the privilege to, to get an education here.

Mm.

And so I'm living a- as both the, the fucking result of, of a lot of privilege in the midst of a lot of oppression at the same time.

so, so you, you, you are right. Is sort of even to what Dave was saying-

Mm-hmm

... about conspiracies and all of that, both things are true at the same time.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

It is always about race.

Mm-hmm.

But-

But it might not be.

Mm.

And then just that the, the class conversation is, is actually the bigger conversation.

It's always about class.

It's like where do you put the period on the sentence-

It's always about class

... is, is important.

That's, I like that

And it's, I feel like when you put the period on the sentence only after race, then oftentimes you're left without a full sentence, and you're left without, like, a clear goal.

Mm-hmm.

You know what I'm saying? Because if you just fixate on the racial dimensions of things without realizing how they're a, a front-

Mm

... for the actual class-

Yep

... struggle that exists-

Yep

... this is a lifetime pursuit. You'll just be frustrated about-

Yeah

... racism for the rest of your motherfucking life.

Yeah. You, you bas-

That's what you-