What Now? With Trevor NoahWhat the West Gets Wrong About China | Alice Han & Trevor Noah
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
95 min read · 19,317 words- 0:00 – 1:20
Intro
- AHAlice Han
[upbeat music] If you w- uh, watch, um, videos on Chinese TikTok-
- EUEugene
Yeah
- AHAlice Han
... there's a lot of girl-
- EUEugene
Is that Weibo?
- AHAlice Han
Um-
- EUEugene
Or is it, or is it just-
- AHAlice Han
It's, it's Douyin. Like Douyin-
- EUEugene
Douyin, okay
- AHAlice Han
... and Xiaohongshu, which is Red Note. Um-
- EUEugene
Say that, say that last part. The last-
- AHAlice Han
Xiaohongshu
- EUEugene
... yeah.
- AHAlice Han
Red- it's a, it's-
- EUEugene
Xiaohongshu?
- AHAlice Han
Yeah.
- EUEugene
'Cause that's, uh, sometimes I feel like you like you are Xiaohongshu. Xiaohongshu.
- AHAlice Han
[laughs]
- EUEugene
So you [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
I can roll, I can roll like that.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Thank you, Eugene. Xiaohongshu.
- EUEugene
Thank you. Xiaohongshu.
- AHAlice Han
Oh my God, you have such a good accent.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh.
- EUEugene
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Thank you very much.
- AHAlice Han
Yeah, no, seriously. Seriously. You could, you could go on to Chinese TV and be-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh. [laughs]
- EUEugene
Okay. Oh, damn. Damn.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, it's, um-
- 1:20 – 3:00
Why Alice Thought Trevor’s Invite Was a Scam
- EUEugene
Just like conspiracy theories.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- EUEugene
Or sometimes charges when they're being pressed against you, and you're like, "Him, too. He was there." [laughs]
- AHAlice Han
[laughs] Oh my God.
- TNTrevor Noah
I've never heard that one, compliments are like conspiracy theories.
- EUEugene
I made it up.
- TNTrevor Noah
No, I, that's what I'm saying. I've never heard that. I like that.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
I like, that's a fresh one.
- EUEugene
Alice, go ahead. Tell him.
- AHAlice Han
Oh, I got, so I got the email from you guys two weeks ago, and I legitimately thought it was a scam. I was thinking, "Why the heck is Trevor Noah-
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
You
- AHAlice Han
... A, interested in China, and B-
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- AHAlice Han
... why is his team emailing me?"
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- AHAlice Han
And so I sat on it for two days thinking, "This is just n- this is probably-
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- AHAlice Han
... another one of those AI scam artists that are just creating random emails out there for people."
- TNTrevor Noah
You, okay, you've made me realize something. I think you're not, you are not the first, second, nor third, nor fourth person who said this. I need to find a different way to reach out to people then because I, because ma-
- EUEugene
DMs
- TNTrevor Noah
... 'cause many people think that when-
- EUEugene
DMs are the o-
- TNTrevor Noah
... when we're reaching out, it's a scam.
- EUEugene
Yeah, but DMs are the original authenticator.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay. So I'ma just like reach out in the DMs.
- EUEugene
If someone DMs you, you know it's true, right? Alice, if, if you had gotten a DM from him, would you have thought it was a scam?
- AHAlice Han
And he's got the blue tick verified. Yes.
- EUEugene
There.
- 3:00 – 5:00
Why Most Western Analysis on China Is Wrong
- TNTrevor Noah
i- that the world has ever dealt with.
- EUEugene
Relationships.
- TNTrevor Noah
And that is ... W- uh, not relationships-
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
... but that is one of them, Eugene. But in many ways, actually, Alice is a relationship expert.
- EUEugene
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's just a different type of relationship, a geo- geopolitical relationship.
- EUEugene
Aha.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- AHAlice Han
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Um, no, but, but, but you, you, you are considered an expert on China, which is ... It, I ... Am I correct in saying it is one of the most complicated countries to actually be an expert in-
- EUEugene
Sure
- TNTrevor Noah
... because of how multilayered it is?
- AHAlice Han
I completely agree, and we were just talking earlier how my pet peeve is the amount of white people that write about China without having ever gone or lived there.
- TNTrevor Noah
That is hilarious. [laughs]
- AHAlice Han
And they have a framework by which they analyze China.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm.
- AHAlice Han
They think it's the next Soviet Union. They think it's the next imperial Germany. And, and my f- real shtick is you've gotta, and you probably understand this better than most people, you've gotta understand the culture from the ground up to really understand what the country's about, and it's a very complicated, diverse history and culture. It's, it's entirely relevant in this new technological geopolitical age, but I think you're completely right. It's one of the hardest countries to get right, and increasingly so in the last decade because, A, people aren't traveling in the way that they used to. B-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm
- AHAlice Han
... Western journalists aren't living thems- there. Some were kicked out. And C, just in general, people have this ideological frameworking and-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- AHAlice Han
... and fear-mongering about China without really trying to understand it.
- TNTrevor Noah
Uh, did you see that, uh, that trip recently where a few US, I don't know if they were senators or just, uh, Congress people, went to China. It was their first time, which also shocked me, by the way. These are-
- EUEugene
It shocked you that Americans left America?
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs] Don't do that, bro.
- AHAlice Han
That they have a passport.
- TNTrevor Noah
Don't do that, bro. You, both of you, don't do that.
- AHAlice Han
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Don't do that. Hey.
- 5:00 – 6:30
Why US Lawmakers Still Don’t Understand China
- TNTrevor Noah
China. [laughs] You're part of the problem, buddy. Um, no, I w- I was shocked that lawmakers-
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... could go to China for the first time, and I mean, like, deep into their tenure, like deep, deep, these people have been serving in Congress forever. This was their first trip to China. And then while they were there, they were, they were just mesmerized by everything.
- EUEugene
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And they came back saying, "Yeah, well, I mean, China wasn't ... I didn't expect it, and I, I couldn't believe what they're doing out there. And, you know, I, I mean, uh, there's a lot of things I ... I've got a new, uh, perspective on China." And I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait. I understand if an idiot like me is living at home and has an opinion on China.
- EUEugene
Right.
- TNTrevor Noah
That's fine.
- AHAlice Han
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's not great, but it's fine. If you are making laws and you're-
- AHAlice Han
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... deciding policies between yourself and China, and you know nothing about China, w- like, what are we doing?
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Do, do you know, do you know what I mean?
- AHAlice Han
Yeah, yeah, 100%. It, and I love that imagery of, of Marco Rubio, the secretary of state, marveling at the, the ceiling as he goes into-
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- AHAlice Han
... to Beijing during the Trump, uh, Xi summit. But that really sums it up, is I think w- Since COVID, uh, people haven't really been traveling to China in the same way. Now, that's changed in the last year or two because there's now visa-free travel policies and, and now it's trending China maxing to go to China.
- TNTrevor Noah
Did that really happen because of IShowSpeed?
- AHAlice Han
Well, th- I think, yeah. I think he was r- he's a huge star, by the way, in China, and I love that.
- TNTrevor Noah
That-
- AHAlice Han
But-
- TNTrevor Noah
That's insane that that happened
- AHAlice Han
... but it, but he's not the only one. There's a ton of American vloggers, you can see this across YouTube, who in the last 18 months have been going to-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- AHAlice Han
... China, getting
- 6:30 – 7:30
China’s Massive Transformation Since COVID
- AHAlice Han
huge views, just showing-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- AHAlice Han
... b- because China compared to Japan is way cheaper, and it's one of those underdog tourism destinations. It's been so m- developed since COVID.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- AHAlice Han
The internal domestic indust- uh, uh, tourism industry, the logistics, the transport. So when people go there, they're so shocked that China's not the China of the 2010s. You know, remember the Beijing Olympics-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
- AHAlice Han
... and people were talking about pollution, and it was still-
- TNTrevor Noah
There was so much smog that people were saying they were, they were-
- AHAlice Han
Oh, yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... afraid that the athletes wouldn't be able to run. They wouldn't-
- AHAlice Han
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- AHAlice Han
Yeah. So it's changed a huge amount, even in the last 10 years. And but my, to, uh, add to your point, Trevor, my problem is that they A, don't go there, and B, they don't really do the hard work of trying to understand, uh, both the intentions and capabilities of the Chinese government and the people. Uh, will give you a really good example. So the semiconductor policy that the Trump administration and the Biden s- administration put in, they thought it would be very, very easy if
- 7:30 – 11:30
The Semiconductor War
- AHAlice Han
to just cut off the hardware side of the AI, uh, development, meaning the chips, and that China would be behind. China would have no hope of ever catching up. Fast-forward a decade, and, you know, China's only a couple months lagging behind the frontier models in America.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- AHAlice Han
Huawei just announced that by, uh, in the next couple years it will do under two nanometer chip production, which is as competitive as TSMC. That, I think, is so different from what people would have expected-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm
- AHAlice Han
... because they're not going to China. They're not understanding that, uh, what's actually happening at the government level but also in, in the companies, in the companies like Huawei, like, uh, SMIC, which is another chip company-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah, yeah
- AHAlice Han
... Alibaba, uh, ByteDance. They're, they're hugely innovative companies, not just the kind of imitative China that we're so used to.
- TNTrevor Noah
Well, I, I think, I think it's because people keep an idea of a place or a people as they first learned of them.
- AHAlice Han
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
And I think we're all guilty of this in some way, shape, or form. Like in South Africa, one of the main things people would think about when they think about China is fake goods.
- AHAlice Han
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know what I mean?
- EUEugene
Hey.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hong Kong.
- EUEugene
Hey, hey.
- TNTrevor Noah
I'm a Hong Kong.
- EUEugene
No, no, no.
- AHAlice Han
[laughs] .
- EUEugene
I would have thought-
- TNTrevor Noah
What would you have thought?
- EUEugene
Bruce Lee.
- TNTrevor Noah
The, I mean, fine.
- EUEugene
Yeah, but carry on. Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
But, but no, but I'm serious.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
You're not wrong. It was, it was kung fu movies.
- EUEugene
It was kung fu, yes.
- TNTrevor Noah
Kung fu movies.
- EUEugene
Drunken Master.
- TNTrevor Noah
And yeah, Drunken Master or-
- 11:30 – 17:30
How China Actually Works
- AHAlice Han
since then, it's, it's, it's rebounded remarkably in terms of favorability.
- TNTrevor Noah
Y- yeah, you know, that's, that is probably the strangest thing about China. Like, when I try and read about it and try and understand it, on the one hand, it seems like China runs, you know, the way the Chinese government runs the country is really structured and, and rigid. That's how it feels for me when I see it. I'm like, "Okay, they, they, they have an idea of where they're trying to go."
- AHAlice Han
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's multi-generational.
- AHAlice Han
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
It isn't constrained by the next election or democracy or, like, a thing that's gonna, like, throw it off course.
- EUEugene
Yeah, there's no campaigning or elections in China.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, yeah. They're like, "No, no, no. This is our long-term plan."
- AHAlice Han
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
"It's gonna last longer than we're even alive, and this is where we're trying to get to."
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
But it seems very rigid. It's like strict parents. That's how I feel like. I feel like China's government is like strict parents. But then at the same time, I'll see things that China's doing where I'm like, "That seems fun and rock and roll," and it doesn't match up with the idea that I have of a homogenous, like, strict parent-
- AHAlice Han
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... if, if that makes sense. And I, I don't know, how should, how should we be thinking of China? Like, which, which China is the real one? Is it the place where everyone's building everything and they, they moving forward and, you know, there's, there's just, like, a boom happening in terms of-
- AHAlice Han
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... manufacturing, et cetera, et cetera, or is it the China that has, like, the strict government th- that defines how people live their lives every day?
- AHAlice Han
Yeah. It's honestly a cop-out answer, but both. This is gonna sound very wonky. There was a great paper by a Chinese economist over a decade ago in which he has a framework that China is a regionally distributed authoritarian regime. And what he means-
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm
- AHAlice Han
... by that is that, yes, you have the central government, which historically in China has been the emperor.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- AHAlice Han
Um, there's a phrase in Chinese which is the, the mountains are high, but the emperor is far away, and that suggests-
- TNTrevor Noah
Wait, say that again. The mountains are high?
- AHAlice Han
The mountains are high, but the emperor's far away.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, I'd love that on my bio.
- AHAlice Han
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
The mountains are high.
- AHAlice Han
And the emperor's far.
- TNTrevor Noah
Far away.
- AHAlice Han
And what it means by that is y- yes, you have central command, and the emperor, or in this case, the central government says, "You should do this. These are the targets for semiconductor output."
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- 17:30 – 20:00
China’s 4 Biggest Problems
- TNTrevor Noah
and, like, where, where does it diverge from the way the West portrays China's-
- AHAlice Han
Hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... issues or problems?
- AHAlice Han
Well, the West, insofar as I understand, portrays it a lot as, you know, "This is the problem with authoritarianism. It's a massive struggle-"
- TNTrevor Noah
Yep
- AHAlice Han
... "between-"
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- AHAlice Han
... democracy and authoritarian regimes."
- EUEugene
They still see that little red book-
- AHAlice Han
Yeah, e-
- EUEugene
... of Chairman Mao.
- AHAlice Han
Exactly. They, they have this kind of Maoist, uh, Marxist-Leninist framework, whereas in China they're thinking about structural issues. So what I have called, uh, the four Ds are, are the real problems in China that policymakers understand.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AHAlice Han
And the, those four Ds are, number one, debt. You've got debt north of 300% of GDP. Uh, that's just a little bit lower than Japan, but that's a huge amount of debt, more than the US.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AHAlice Han
Uh, that, why does that matter? It matters because it, it- Crowds out investment in more efficient areas of the economy, and it crowds out d- uh, domestic demand, which is the second D. You know, consumption has really underwhelmed and, and actually is underwhelming, uh, relative to pre-COVID trend, uh, because household savings rates have gone up. Households are-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm
- AHAlice Han
... less, you know, sp- um, you know, less keen to spend, like Americans for instance.
- TNTrevor Noah
Interesting.
- AHAlice Han
They don't use their credit card. There's no sort of tradition of using credit cards. People are more conservative when it comes to sp- you know, spending, uh, durable goods for instance. Uh, and n- and that has obviously got knock-on effects for the rest of the world because it means that if China wants to keep growing at 5% of GDP, then it needs to export even more to the rest of the world-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh
- AHAlice Han
... to maintain that growth.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AHAlice Han
So that's the other side of this demand, uh, and debt problem. And-
- TNTrevor Noah
So, so if China's population is not bearing the brunt because it's not spending as much, it's not creating as much for China's economy-
- AHAlice Han
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... then China has to get that spending outside of China.
- AHAlice Han
Exactly.
- TNTrevor Noah
All right.
- AHAlice Han
And the strength of the American economy is that it is consumption and-
- 20:00 – 22:00
China’s Demographic Crisis
- AHAlice Han
birth rate since 1949, since record, on record, since the communists came to power. Um-
- TNTrevor Noah
Wow.
- EUEugene
And that's why I think you moving back home will be good. [laughs]
- AHAlice Han
[laughs] To, to fertility. Increase fertility.
- EUEugene
You're a nice young man. Settle down.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- EUEugene
Leave the 40s alone. [laughs]
- AHAlice Han
[laughs] I didn't know this was gonna be this kind of podcast.
- EUEugene
Oh. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- AHAlice Han
There are too many tech bros-
- EUEugene
All of a sudden
- AHAlice Han
... that are talking about pro-natalist policies.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, wow. [laughs]
- AHAlice Han
But speaking of, there is this one guy in, in China who's fascinating, just a side, side note. And I was talking about the 4D-
- TNTrevor Noah
This whole entire podcast is a side note.
- EUEugene
Is a side note.
- AHAlice Han
It's a side note.
- EUEugene
Yes.
- AHAlice Han
Okay.
- EUEugene
Feel free.
- AHAlice Han
Good. So there's a demography, um, professor who is also the chairman and founder of Ctrip, which is China's big, uh, trip booking platform.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AHAlice Han
And he, um, uh, is now paying his employees $50,000 per baby because he's so worried about the demographic issue in China. Uh, you know, China's, um, you know, uh, replacement rate is now about one, meaning that the population is shrinking.
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- AHAlice Han
By 2040, one in three people will be above 60. Just think about-
- TNTrevor Noah
So it's quite, 'cause Germany's, Germany's is currently, like, 1.4.
- AHAlice Han
It's slightly higher than China.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- AHAlice Han
Yeah.
- 22:00 – 29:00
Why Chinese Women Don’t Want Kids
- AHAlice Han
videos on Chinese TikTok-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- AHAlice Han
... there's a lot of g-
- TNTrevor Noah
Is that Weibo? Or is, or is it just-
- AHAlice Han
Um, it's, it's Douyin. Like Douyin-
- TNTrevor Noah
Douyin, okay
- AHAlice Han
... in Xiongshui, which is Red Note. Um-
- EUEugene
Say that, say that last part. The last-
- AHAlice Han
Xiongshui.
- EUEugene
Yeah.
- AHAlice Han
Red- It's, uh, it's-
- TNTrevor Noah
Xiongshui?
- AHAlice Han
Yeah.
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm.
- AHAlice Han
So, so-
- EUEugene
'Cause that's how, sometimes I feel like you're like, "Do you like Xiongshui?"
- TNTrevor Noah
Xiongshui.
- EUEugene
So you ... [laughs]
- AHAlice Han
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
I can roll, I can roll like that.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Xièxie, Eugene. Xiongshui.
- EUEugene
Xièxie. Xiongshui.
- AHAlice Han
Oh my God, you have such a good accent.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh.
- EUEugene
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Thank you very much.
- AHAlice Han
Yeah, no, seriously.
- TNTrevor Noah
Xièxie.
- AHAlice Han
Seriously. You could, you could go onto Chinese TV and be-
- 29:00 – 34:00
China’s Dating Crisis
- TNTrevor Noah
what is, what is the, the, the breakdown? While we're still talking about-
- EUEugene
Hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... demographics in China. We're seeing this trend around the world. Is it the same in China, where the men are now becoming less favored in the workplace at all, are finding themselves in a hyper-competitive world where they're actually, like, losing a bit of the race? Is that also seen in China, or is it, or is it different?
- AHAlice Han
Not to the same degree, and it's not talked about as much as it is in the West.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AHAlice Han
But the, uh, and, and certainly not as much as, as, as Korea, where I know there is a right-wing incel movement that is anti-women because, to your point-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes
- AHAlice Han
... they, they feel as though the deck is increasingly stacked against them. That quite- hasn't quite happened as of yet. Uh, but I think more importantly is this kind of, um, you know, consternation, uh, especially amongst men, that they can't find women. Because one, like, one of the other unintended consequences, although you, you could have easily predicted this based on human nature, is we've got a massive, um, uh, skew towards the male population-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh
- AHAlice Han
... as opposed to female. So there are way more men-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, wow
- AHAlice Han
... in my generation in China than there are women.
- TNTrevor Noah
Because of the one-child policy.
- AHAlice Han
Because of the one-child policy.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, wow.
- AHAlice Han
And people favored, they would rather have one, one, one son rather than a daughter.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, boy.
- AHAlice Han
And, and as a result, dating is r- just really tough. The, the, the barrier to entry to date as a Chinese man historically, uh, and still is present today- Is you've gotta have your own apartment, your own car-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm
- AHAlice Han
... a really stable job-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm. Mm
- AHAlice Han
... uh, and that's really, really tough. And that's why we were talking about this earlier. There's been a trend, um, on, um, social media in terms of vloggers, but i- it's been happening really since Russia-Ukraine of, of, um, Chinese men going out and finding Ukrainian women and bringing them back to China.
- TNTrevor Noah
No ways.
- AHAlice Han
And the Ukrainian women have really popular vlogs saying how great China is compared to-
- TNTrevor Noah
No ways
- AHAlice Han
... [laughs] Russia or Ukraine, and how great Chinese men are compared to Russian men because they d- they're responsible financially, they take care of the kids, they, they take care of their women. It's, it's a, it's a fascinating thing. One last data point. I was in Shanghai a couple weeks ago, uh, and in, uh, Tomorrow Square, which is, uh, right in the central of Shanghai, there are now, um, these matchmakers that just sit out there, and I literally saw hundreds of them-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm
- AHAlice Han
... in the square-
- TNTrevor Noah
In the park. I've seen this
- AHAlice Han
... with posters.
- 34:00 – 38:00
Immigration, Japan & Cultural Identity
- EUEugene
But I think that's what's happening now in China, right? When Chinese men go out there, they're like, "Yo, you don't know how hot I am in, in Ukraine."
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- EUEugene
"I'm changing all day long."
- TNTrevor Noah
Good for them. Good for them. I love that, actually. We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break. [upbeat music] How easy is it to, um, to move to China? 'Cause from what I've read, China's not necessarily like an, like an immigration country.
- AHAlice Han
No, no. But I think Japan is less of a... Well, Japan's starting to change now. But J-
- TNTrevor Noah
When I was in Japan, sorry to cut you off. When I was in Japan, there were newspaper articles. It was interesting 'cause the, the, our tour guide was translating it for us, but there were whole newspapers-
- EUEugene
You made your tour guide translate newspaper articles?
- TNTrevor Noah
I didn't make. Please. I didn't make anyone do anything, Eugene.
- AHAlice Han
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
He is the tour guide, was... I was just saying, "What's in the news today?" And then he was telling me some of the stories.
- EUEugene
And then he said, "Ah, not much."
- TNTrevor Noah
No, and then he told me.
- EUEugene
Then you said, "No, really."
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs] No.
- EUEugene
"What's in the news today?"
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, I was just asking 'cause I, I'm curious. I wanted to know what's happening-
- EUEugene
Right
- TNTrevor Noah
... in Tokyo while we're there.
- EUEugene
Right.
- TNTrevor Noah
And one of the big stories in the newspaper was a continuing discussion where they were... Essentially, the headline was, "Should Japanese people be less, um, xenophobic?"
- AHAlice Han
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Because they're fully [laughs] they're fully like, "We don't want anyone who's not Japanese here. Don't bring them into our country. We're not mixing cultures. We're not..." But then the article's like... It was weird because the article was basically like, "We agree. We shouldn't let anyone in, but it's not working."
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
"But we agree we shouldn't let anyone in."
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
"But what are we gonna do about this? Should we maybe bring... Maybe we should start bringing people in who wanna learn Japanese and wanna learn Japanese culture-
- AHAlice Han
Yeah. Culture. Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... and they wanna become Japanese. Maybe we start with them."
- AHAlice Han
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
And then we, we were, we were out having sushi at a, you know those tiny, tiny, tiny little place like s- like beautiful sushi places-
- 38:00 – 41:00
Why China Dominates EVs and Robotics
- AHAlice Han
robots in a second.
- TNTrevor Noah
We're definitely-
- AHAlice Han
But culture-
- TNTrevor Noah
... not gonna forget robots.
- AHAlice Han
[laughs] Especially not sex robots in Japan. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Hey, hey, hey. Why don't you just lead with that?
- AHAlice Han
[laughs] So you have the edit.
- TNTrevor Noah
Geopolitical AI economist.
- AHAlice Han
Okay. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Sex robot.
- AHAlice Han
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Advocate.
- AHAlice Han
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
We're going to China, my friend. [laughs]
- AHAlice Han
[laughs] It produces the most robots in the world. Okay, so-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, man. [laughs]
- AHAlice Han
So, [laughs] sorry, guys.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- AHAlice Han
So this is where culture's really important. So Japan historically, you know, you had the Meiji Restoration, this closing off of Western influence.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yes.
- AHAlice Han
Because they feel very fearful of that-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- AHAlice Han
... and very strong and convicted, and they should in their traditions and culture. Uh, but I think if I compare it to China, which is by no means perfect, there's, China has culturally a more curiosity and open-mindedness towards the West.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh.
- AHAlice Han
This is why it was able to invite a lot of foreign investment in the '80s and '90s, obviously copycat it, imitate it-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- AHAlice Han
... and then iterate on it and make it better. Um, but you also see it at a, a, um, in terms of an anecdotal level, like, I go to a bookstore in China, and I see Elon Musk and his mother's face everywhere, Maye Musk. Like, she's a freaking star in China.
- TNTrevor Noah
Really?
- AHAlice Han
They are obsessed with the family. Uh, but that-
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm
- 41:00 – 47:00
Will China Invade Taiwan?
- AHAlice Han
robots, I'm a little bit doubtful, but that, that's another kind of-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, we'll get to...
- AHAlice Han
Right
- TNTrevor Noah
... okay, we'll table robots.
- AHAlice Han
And then D, fourth D is destruction, which is the other challe- challenge. It's related to Taiwan. Are we gonna have, in the next couple years, a big showdown over Taiwan?
- TNTrevor Noah
How real is that, though? 'Cause it, it feels like that's been on everyone's lips for-
- AHAlice Han
For the longest time. Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... it, it's in the same way, and, you know, not to flatten these, these topics down, but, like, in the same way the world has been warned about Iranian missiles s- like, for decades-
- AHAlice Han
People-
- TNTrevor Noah
... Iran-
- AHAlice Han
... have risked destruction
- TNTrevor Noah
... Iran's gonna make a nuke. Iran's gonna make a nuke. Iran-
- AHAlice Han
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
And it's like, here we are decades later, and they still haven't made a nuke. How real is the threat of China invi- invading Taiwan? Because it, to me, it seems imminent, but I remember even when I was, like, on The Daily Show and we were covering it, it felt like it was weeks away. And then weeks later, it felt like it w- weeks away, and then it was weeks, and then it was like, oh, it's been years, and still weeks away. And then even now when I read the news, they're like, "I think it's happening. I think it's happening next week."
- AHAlice Han
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
"I think it's happening next week. I think it's happening next week." And then I remember watching videos of people who live in Taiwan, and then they were just, like, chilled.
- AHAlice Han
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
But the media that I was consuming in America was going, "Oh, man, it's very stressful. It's about to happen. It's about to happen." So, like, how, how real is the threat?
- AHAlice Han
I certainly don't think it's real in the next two years.
- TNTrevor Noah
No?
- AHAlice Han
Uh, there's a lot of internal politics that I can get into in just a bit in China.
- TNTrevor Noah
Two years, though.
- AHAlice Han
In the next two years I think it's highly unlikely.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AHAlice Han
But, um, fast-forward 10 years or more, I think the probabilities go up, uh, mainly because, uh, you know, the Chinese will start to have superiority in terms of the military balance of power.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AHAlice Han
Uh, especially if the US doesn't do more to really invest in military defense capabilities. Uh, and, and certainly you've seen in the last couple years that, uh, the spending on debt has outpaced the spending on the military. This is a law-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm
- AHAlice Han
... in history by, coined by my boss Niall Ferguson, called Ferguson's Law, so shout out to him, which is that he looked at, um, empires through history.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- 47:00 – 52:00
How Xi Jinping Built His Power
- TNTrevor Noah
um, expansion if they went into China, into, uh, Taiwan.
- EUEugene
Taiwan.
- AHAlice Han
Yeah. So-
- TNTrevor Noah
That's, no, that's an interesting way to think about it.
- AHAlice Han
Yeah. And then she ha- she has time, Xi Jinping, the president, has time on his side. He's 72 this year. He's, he's built-
- TNTrevor Noah
Still a young man
- AHAlice Han
... he's still relatively young.
- TNTrevor Noah
Still a young man.
- AHAlice Han
Compared to American presidents.
- TNTrevor Noah
A fresh, young lotus.
- AHAlice Han
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
That's what he is, huh? Living his dream. Xi Jinping. Is it ... Are we saying it right when we say Xi Jinping, or is it, like, is it, is it backwards?
- EUEugene
Xi.
- TNTrevor Noah
Is it-
- AHAlice Han
Um, oh no, it's right. Xi Jinping.
- TNTrevor Noah
It is.
- AHAlice Han
It's, it's the last name first and then the-
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay, it is Xi Jinping
- AHAlice Han
... and then the, yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
'Cause I remember when we f- when we found out, like, Shinzo Abe, w- it was Abe Shinzo, and we were saying, we were basically saying his name backwards-
- AHAlice Han
Mm
- TNTrevor Noah
... the whole time. And then all of a sudden someone was like, "No, it's wrong."
- AHAlice Han
No, it, it, he, he's got it-
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay, so it is Xi Jinping.
- AHAlice Han
He's got it right. Yeah, exactly.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay. What, what is, what has made him so successful? Like, it seems like every ... Again, when you read Western media, and this is something, by the way, that I, I think is interesting to your point. I, I only realized the other day, China is one of the few, like, major countries where its news is also being written in its language.
- AHAlice Han
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
So if you cannot read Chinese, or Mandarin, Cantonese, whichever one it's being written in, you are missing out on a lot of the nuance and the actual Reporting and storytelling that's happening in the coun-
- AHAlice Han
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
Does that make sense?
- 52:00 – 56:00
China’s Global Expansion Strategy
- TNTrevor Noah
many Americans I think sometimes will take for granted that part of the reason America is as powerful as it is, and has been as powerful as it has been, is primarily because of its soft power. America didn't go around the world blowing up the world to get the power it had. It went to Africa with things like US aid. You know, it helped, um, European governments build themselves up after World War II. It gave low interest loans. It really became the, the benefactor of the world.
- AHAlice Han
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
It helped with trade. It inspired-
- AHAlice Han
The sugar daddy.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, it was, it was really the sugar daddy of the world.
- AHAlice Han
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
And that made the world like America and aspire to, to America. Over the past few years, we've seen America take a step back and go, "Hey, w- America is America. We don't want anything to do with the rest of the world. Don't involve us," and, and that's that. And then you see it in Africa. Like, China's gone in and, you know, has built ports and built roads and-
- AHAlice Han
Railways
- TNTrevor Noah
... railways and airports, and created these interesting agreements where, like, the Chinese will never lose in the deal.
- AHAlice Han
Mm-hmm.
- TNTrevor Noah
You know? So it's like either they get their money back or they now own infrastructure in Africa.
- AHAlice Han
Yeah, yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Um, we've seen the, the Chinese reach out to, like, Brazil and create new deals that never existed for, like, soy exports, et cetera.
- AHAlice Han
Mm.
- TNTrevor Noah
W- w- within China, what do you think they are seeing with America pulling back, and what do you think they're trying to do? Like, i- is there a concerted effort to fill the gap, or is it just them creating another version of a Silk Road?
- AHAlice Han
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, lots of people talk about policymakers in China as being majority engineers in the, in the way that, uh, is different from the US where they're majority lawyers. But I, uh, the, uh, the other thing that I think is interesting about policymakers is that they are very keen historians. A lot of them read history, and they have looked at American history and gone, "Actually, it's not that great to be everyone's enabler and sugar daddy." You know, there's just a lot of-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh
- AHAlice Han
... these commitments that you have to make.
- TNTrevor Noah
Obligations.
- AHAlice Han
On obligations.
- TNTrevor Noah
Expectations.
- AHAlice Han
Um, you know, it's far better if, you know ... Actually, we have, uh, trade with all these different countries, and we help them build infrastructure that it actually accelerates trade, so they buy more of our products.
- TNTrevor Noah
Interesting.
- AHAlice Han
And we can have, get more commodities like cobalt and lithium from Africa so that we don't have any supply chain problems like the Americans, Europe- and Europeans have had. So we can really dominate across technologies and supply chains. That is the, the thinking, which is let's have more influence globally, but maybe more preeminence regionally in Asia-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- AHAlice Han
... where we're looked to as, uh, within the tributary system, we're looked to as the center. But I, I don't think policymakers have this view that it's worthwhile or worth their while to become the next global policeman, uh, the next-
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm
- AHAlice Han
... sugar daddy.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- AHAlice Han
Because they've seen what that means, you know, costly battles, uh, increasing deficit spending, uh, in the American context, and they increasingly look at the model in America and see a lot of problems. But one last thing I'll say, which I think is underappreciated- So in the 1990s, the G7 countries comprised about 70% of global GDP.
- 56:00 – 1:00:00
What Chinese People Actually Think
- TNTrevor Noah
[upbeat music] How do people on the ground feel in China? Because again, that, that's another one of those things where if you just, like, read the media, they'll, they'll always make it seem like, Western media makes it seem like people in China are clamoring to get out.
- EUEugene
Yeah, not having a good time.
- TNTrevor Noah
Like, clamoring. They're like, "You thank your lucky stars that you don't live in China-
- EUEugene
Mm-hmm
- TNTrevor Noah
... because oh, they would dream to live in a country where there's 600 TV channels and 15 kinds of nut milk. You don't understand how tough it is."
- EUEugene
And there's Starbucks on every corner.
- TNTrevor Noah
"You don't understand."
- AHAlice Han
By the way, that exists already in China, just so you know. [laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
That's hilarious.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
But that, but that's, yeah, so-
- AHAlice Han
There's more variety, actually, in certain foods in China. Uh, just, just so you know.
- TNTrevor Noah
You, but this, so, so what is the average Chinese, I know you're not speaking for everyone, but, like, what is the average Chinese person experiencing of China, and what are they, like, do, do you know what I mean? How-
- AHAlice Han
Yeah
- TNTrevor Noah
... how are they viewing China?
- AHAlice Han
So there's a good side and a bad side. The good side is, you know, everyone, everyone else is having a worse time. Look at, they have this narrative, okay, there's just so much crime and guns in America-
- TNTrevor Noah
Damn
- AHAlice Han
... and racism. Increasingly, they don't want people like us, you know. And, and, you know, Trump has just put in this new, um, green card policy that makes it harder for people to stay while they're getting their green cards.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, yes, now you have to go-
- AHAlice Han
You have to go back
- TNTrevor Noah
... you have to leave the country-
- AHAlice Han
To your country
- TNTrevor Noah
... which seems like a trap.
- AHAlice Han
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- AHAlice Han
Exactly. And, and then, and but the flip side of it is, um, you know, people do feel like the economy's slowing down. There's this concept you always hear in the media in the West, this concept of lying flat, tang ping, which is, you know, why would you be in the rat race and work super hard when you can only get so much money and, you know, deflation is happening in the economy, and-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh
- AHAlice Han
... there's not as many jobs. You know, youth unemployment's still close to 20%. So young people in China feel a little bit depressed-
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm
- AHAlice Han
... about the economy-
- 1:00:00 – 1:08:00
BYD, Subsidies & EV Dominance
- AHAlice Han
I can't remember the exact-
- TNTrevor Noah
20 to 25 minutes
- AHAlice Han
... distance, but you should look it up. It goes from the-
- TNTrevor Noah
To the second floor
- AHAlice Han
... from the base to, to the top of the mountain.
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- AHAlice Han
[laughs] Oh, my God.
- TNTrevor Noah
It really, that, yeah, it feels like, it feels like China's just doing, like, impossible things most of the time. Like, in, in every ... I was reading about BYD the other day. Oh, maybe this is, yeah, this is, you're the perfect person to ask this.
- EUEugene
Why?
- TNTrevor Noah
Why was I reading about BYD?
- EUEugene
No, why is she the perfect person to ask?
- TNTrevor Noah
Because she knows about China, and she knows about, uh, economics.
- EUEugene
Okay, carry on.
- TNTrevor Noah
And you know none of these things.
- EUEugene
Oh, carry on.
- TNTrevor Noah
Even though I ask you about them every day.
- EUEugene
Really?
- TNTrevor Noah
You don't try and learn shit.
- AHAlice Han
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Out here telling me about beard oil.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
[laughs]
- EUEugene
That's the real BYD.
- TNTrevor Noah
So [laughs]
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- AHAlice Han
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
So [laughs] beard your dreams.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
So, um, uh, BYD for a long time was considered the laughing stock of-
- 1:08:00 – 1:19:00
The Future of Robots
- AHAlice Han
your stockpiles and import from other places around the world. So that's the f- that's the way that I look at it is it's less of an empire and it's more of a network of influence on trade, on geopolitics, on supply chains.
- TNTrevor Noah
So do, do you think China's gonna look to the robots? Is, is that a, is that a conversation that they're having?
- AHAlice Han
Oh yeah, for sure, is that robots are gonna help with the demographic challenge, and robots are gonna be the next major export, uh, like EVs and solar panels and batteries were a decade ago.
- TNTrevor Noah
But h- help, help me understand what solutions or what, what problems the robots are actually gonna be fixing. R- because I understand, okay, there's, there's the decline in terms of people's age and their ability to do things, so I guess robots taking care of people, is that one aspect of it?
- AHAlice Han
Taking care of elderly people.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay, so robots taking care of elderly people.
- AHAlice Han
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AHAlice Han
And then you have more task-specific, you know, uh, robotic installations in, already happening in factories.
- TNTrevor Noah
Factories, okay.
- EUEugene
Yeah.
- AHAlice Han
So dark factories that are completely d- uh, devoid of humans-
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah
- AHAlice Han
... basically, and it's just machines.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- AHAlice Han
Uh, uh, robotic machines. Uh, then you have, uh, certain hospitals and pharmaceutical, uh, uh, companies that use, again, robotic arms to pick, you know, pick out somebody's orders or prescriptions-
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, okay
- AHAlice Han
... without a human as well.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AHAlice Han
Uh, that's happening. Um, and then some really in- interesting stuff that is more in, in the brain chip interface that's happening, both invasively and noninvasively. So on the na- noninvasively front, they have this, um, this device that sits on, uh, the skin that basically is able to control the brain, um, so that you can control, uh, an arm.
- TNTrevor Noah
External.
- AHAlice Han
A robotic arm, an external arm. So if you have an amputee, there's a company called BrainCo that's doing it. If you're an amputee, then your brain is able to, it's able to pick up an elect- electric signal to your brain, this chip device that sits on the skin-
- TNTrevor Noah
And in- infer intention
- AHAlice Han
... and then, and then move, move your fingers and infer intention. And there's another one that's, uh, more invasive, which is a chip im- embedded into the brain-
- TNTrevor Noah
Right
- AHAlice Han
... that is helping people, um, who have spine injuries, can't walk, to-
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm
- AHAlice Han
... to walk again. Um, that's more in the kind of y- blended environment-
- TNTrevor Noah
Right
- AHAlice Han
... not, not purely robotics. Uh, but I, I, I, I suspect that we're gonna see, uh, you know, not just the humanoid robots that Elon wants to see, but different, you know, task-specific robotic installations. You know, the stuff that I mentioned that, uh, you know, the arms that are picking up o- orders.
- 1:19:00 – 1:23:00
AI Talent and China’s Next Generation
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
B- because, you know, I, I, I realize this when talking to an expert like yourself, sometimes we don't know what questions we should be asking because we don't have the expertise to know what the questions are. What are the questions you think people should be asking about China that they're not asking?
- AHAlice Han
I love that question. I think that people should do that more in general. I would say in, especially in the AI realm ... talent flows really matter, and I don't think people, because they're in such a, in such a haste to focus, this is my other pet peeve, on compute. You know, everyone's saying, "Oh, US compute is the biggest in the world."
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- AHAlice Han
"We have an advantage in the frontier models." But at the end of the day, what really matters is having top-tier AI talent, and the fact that the plurality, and actually in some respects the majority, of top-tier AI talent is Chinese nationals in the US-
- TNTrevor Noah
Really?
- AHAlice Han
... is astounding. So 38, 9% of top-tier AI talent in Silicon Valley is Chinese nationals. They're not even American-born Chinese.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- AHAlice Han
They're Chinese nationals, and 38% are American-born, uh, engineers, and then there's the rest of the world. Uh, so if you think about that alone, and then you couple that with the fact that China has, uh, 40% of graduates every year in STEM, as opposed to in the US it's 20% of graduates every year is in STEM. Uh, 5 million of STEM graduates graduate almost every year in China and enter the workforce. I don't think people understand enough how important that just scale, but also the talent of these top-tier researchers are for, for AI development, for technological development.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- AHAlice Han
I think that's really understated and does not really capture it in economic models, but super important when we think about innovation in the next frontier.
- TNTrevor Noah
And, and what do you think some of the questions are that we're not asking about, like China's vision and its demographics and its sort of future plans as a whole beyond the space of AI and technology?
- AHAlice Han
So, uh, beyond AI and technology, I think the big question is what is gonna happen to, and a- again, it's tied to, to youths, uh, is like what is gonna happen to the Gen Z in China?
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- AHAlice Han
Because the boomers and the millennials kind of really got to ride the coattails of China's economic rise.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- AHAlice Han
And in the next couple years I believe there'll be upwards to 5 trillion US dollars of intergenerational wealth transfer from the boomers to Gen Z in China. So that's a lot of change that is gonna be transferred over, and the question is how are they gonna invest it? What are they gonna do with the money? Um, are they gonna decide to work as hard as their parents?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, will it affect their work ethic? Yeah.
- AHAlice Han
Yeah. Uh, you know, are, are they going to be motivated to get married or not?
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- AHAlice Han
You know, how are they gonna think about, um, their economic development, you know, in a slowing China? I think that is the big question. We haven't figured it out yet, because both narratives of, like, the youth are checked out and mailing it in, but also the youth are s- really hardworking and excited about AI. Both r- realities coexist. And then it, it, the big question is which pathway do we take? Like, will, which- will Chinese youths and the industry get super excited about AI and will China be, uh, not just a near peer competitor with the US but a leader?
- TNTrevor Noah
Right.
- AHAlice Han
Because maybe it's not just LLMs that matter, and maybe there are other innovations that, that young Chinese people can design. 'Cause they've already shown, Chinese companies have already shown that they're not just good at iteration but also good at innovation and making very viral stuff. Like, who would have thought a couple years ago that the most viral videos and content AI-generated would come out of China?
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah.
- AHAlice Han
From TikTok.
- TNTrevor Noah
Hmm.
- AHAlice Han
No one would have thought that, and that gave birth to a whole rise of content creators and influencers.
- TNTrevor Noah
Damn. It really is gonna be exciting.
- EUEugene
Very exciting.
- TNTrevor Noah
It's like a ... Yeah, I mean, we ... To see the China that we grew up with-
- 1:23:00 – 1:30:48
Where Trevor Should Visit in China
- TNTrevor Noah
if we go to China, where should we go first?
- AHAlice Han
I'm super biased 'cause I'm from Shanghai.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AHAlice Han
So you have to go there.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AHAlice Han
It's like the Paris of China.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, Shanghai's like the Paris of China.
- AHAlice Han
It's really, it's really, um-
- TNTrevor Noah
People are irritated that you're there when you're not. Is that what you're saying?
- AHAlice Han
Well, they're kind of arro- they're arrogant. They think they're the best people in China.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay, I like that.
- AHAlice Han
Yeah.
- TNTrevor Noah
I like that.
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- AHAlice Han
They, they, like, look down on everyone else.
- TNTrevor Noah
Yeah, that's para-
- EUEugene
[laughs]
- AHAlice Han
[laughs]
- TNTrevor Noah
People are just like, "What are you doing in our town?"
- AHAlice Han
They dress better. They, they look down on everyone else in China.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay.
- AHAlice Han
And they just think that they're culturally superior.
- TNTrevor Noah
Okay, cool.
- AHAlice Han
But, but you get the be- I think you get some of the best restaurants. It's super cosmopolitan for a mainland city-
- TNTrevor Noah
Uh-huh
- AHAlice Han
... in China. And there are some areas historically where there's, like, beautiful, um, art deco Spanish Revival buildings. 'Cause remember, in the Republican era, so the early 1900s in China, there were a lot of Westerners who were living there.
- TNTrevor Noah
Mm-hmm.
- AHAlice Han
They had different concession areas or zones. So there, there's a French concession zone.
- TNTrevor Noah
Oh, so they could, like, build their own ... They-
Episode duration: 1:30:50
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Transcript of episode 5w4mYeWGVc8
