Why Are All Bosses Idiots? with Simon Sinek | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

1. 0:00 – 0:54

   Trevor vs. Simon: order, chaos, and why they like each other’s brains

   1. TNTrevor Noah0:00

      Okay, so here's the difference between us.

   2. SSSimon Sinek0:01

      [laughs]

   3. TNTrevor Noah0:02

      If you brought Simon Sinek into your company-

   4. SSSimon Sinek0:04

      Yeah

   5. TNTrevor Noah0:04

      ... and you said, "Simon, what is going wrong with this company?"

   6. SSSimon Sinek0:07

      Yeah

   7. TNTrevor Noah0:07

      ... "And what..." Then Simon Sinek would try and help you to make the company better.

   8. SSSimon Sinek0:11

      Right.

   9. TNTrevor Noah0:11

      If you brought Trevor Noah into your company and said, "Yo, what are we, what's happening?" There's a chance that I would say, "You need to shut this place down." [laughs]

   10. SSSimon Sinek0:18

       [laughs]

   11. SPSpeaker0:18

       [laughs]

   12. TNTrevor Noah0:18

       "Just shut it all down. You should fire yourself-

   13. SPSpeaker0:20

       [laughs]

   14. TNTrevor Noah0:20

       ... and you people should ask yourself why you work here. And everyone should go home."

   15. SSSimon Sinek0:24

       Ah.

   16. TNTrevor Noah0:24

       That might be my solution.

   17. SSSimon Sinek0:26

       I mean, that's a contribution. You, that's-

   18. TNTrevor Noah0:29

       Yes, but what I mean is, like you, I feel like people-

   19. SPSpeaker0:31

       You bring, you bring order. Trevor brings chaos.

   20. SSSimon Sinek0:34

       [laughs]

   21. TNTrevor Noah0:35

       [laughs] [upbeat music] This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. [upbeat music] Was that, was that...

   22. SPSpeaker0:54

       Yes.

   23. TNTrevor Noah0:54

       Thank you. That's amazing.

2. 0:54 – 1:45

   Family closeness by design: Simon’s move to LA and being an “uncle dad”

   1. SPSpeaker0:54

      Simon, where are you based?

   2. SSSimon Sinek0:55

      Here.

   3. SPSpeaker0:55

      Oh, you're based in LA?

   4. SSSimon Sinek0:56

      Actually, yeah, yeah.

   5. SPSpeaker0:57

      Nice.

   6. SSSimon Sinek0:57

      I'm a New Yorker, but I'm here now.

   7. SPSpeaker0:59

      What brought you here?

   8. TNTrevor Noah1:00

      No, no.

   9. SSSimon Sinek1:01

      Uh-

   10. SPSpeaker1:01

       I'm trying to get Trevor to move here. He refuses to.

   11. SSSimon Sinek1:04

       Well, I mean, he's smart.

   12. SPSpeaker1:05

       No, don't say that.

   13. SSSimon Sinek1:07

       Uh, no, I-

   14. SPSpeaker1:07

       [laughs] Make him come

   15. SSSimon Sinek1:08

       ... he, uh, I, my sister and, my sister and her family moved here, uh, in the middle of 2019.

   16. SPSpeaker1:13

       Mm-hmm.

   17. SSSimon Sinek1:14

       My sister and I are very close, uh, and we work together.

   18. SPSpeaker1:17

       Mm.

   19. SSSimon Sinek1:17

       And so to help her ease into living in LA, I got a place here and started doing the bicoastal thing. But, you know, COVID was kind of a magical gift. My niece and nephew were kids that I used to see, you know, a couple times a month when I'd drive up to the suburbs-

   20. SPSpeaker1:31

       Yeah

   21. SSSimon Sinek1:31

       ... and spend a few hours at their house. And then when we went into lockdown, we were having family dinner every single night.

   22. SPSpeaker1:36

       So you're a real uncle dad.

   23. SSSimon Sinek1:37

       Yeah, yeah.

   24. SPSpeaker1:38

       [laughs]

   25. SSSimon Sinek1:38

       I came, I became, I got very, very close with those kids, and I, I love living in LA for them, and when they're not here, I'm very bored.

3. 1:45 – 3:09

   Siblings, friendship, and the (non)formula for staying close

   1. TNTrevor Noah1:45

      You do a lot of work in and around helping people connect, but oftentimes people will think of you as the guy who helps people connect in, like a, an official setting. You know, like a company and an institution and whatever. But is there anything you can help people, like literally what Christiana said, how do, how do siblings become closer or how do they, how do they stay friends? Or how do they even make a friend? 'Cause people assume you'll be friends with your siblings.

   2. SPSpeaker2:08

      Yeah.

   3. SSSimon Sinek2:08

      Right, right, right.

   4. TNTrevor Noah2:09

      But a lot of siblings hate each other.

   5. SPSpeaker2:10

      Also, like he's, he's like an uncle dad. He's helping raise-

   6. SSSimon Sinek2:13

      For sure. I'm the third parent

   7. SPSpeaker2:13

      ... which is like-

   8. SSSimon Sinek2:14

      For sure

   9. SPSpeaker2:15

      ... I would love that. Do you know what I mean? [laughs]

   10. SSSimon Sinek2:17

       I, I think, and I'm actually, it's funny you say that. People are very surprised by how close my sister and I are. They say, you know, "How, what's it like working with your sister? Is that okay?" As if it's some sort of disaster.

   11. TNTrevor Noah2:29

       Yeah.

   12. SSSimon Sinek2:30

       And for them, I think it, they feel it would be. And I don't want to work with anybody else-

   13. SPSpeaker2:35

       Oh

   14. SSSimon Sinek2:35

       ... but my sister. And she-

   15. SPSpeaker2:37

       I love that

   16. SSSimon Sinek2:37

       ... and I talk a thousand times a day, and we bounce between work and personal stuff.

   17. SPSpeaker2:40

       Yeah.

   18. SSSimon Sinek2:41

       And to answer your question, I don't know if there's a formula. I know we, I think one of the things that made us close is we grew up living all over the world. We-

   19. TNTrevor Noah2:49

       Ah, so you were your only contact.

   20. SSSimon Sinek2:51

       So we were the only-

   21. TNTrevor Noah2:52

       No. Okay, that actually makes a lot of sense.

   22. SSSimon Sinek2:53

       So we, we were the only common friends the other could use-

   23. TNTrevor Noah2:56

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. That actually, that makes a lot of sense.

   24. SSSimon Sinek2:57

       So that's probably-

   25. SPSpeaker2:58

       So I need to move my kids around the world a lot.

   26. TNTrevor Noah3:00

       You do, actually. You need to make-

   27. SSSimon Sinek3:01

       Correct

   28. TNTrevor Noah3:01

       ... them their only connection to each other.

   29. SPSpeaker3:03

       Yeah, we wanna do a London stint, definitely.

   30. TNTrevor Noah3:05

       Yeah.
4. 3:09 – 7:02

   Accents, bilingualism, and the critical window for language

   1. TNTrevor Noah3:09

      Do your kids already have the American accent?

   2. SPSpeaker3:12

      Obi sounds like Peppa Pig when he's speaking to me. [laughs]

   3. TNTrevor Noah3:15

      Oh, that's fun.

   4. SPSpeaker3:15

      And he sound, he sounds like California when he's speaking to everyone else.

   5. TNTrevor Noah3:18

      So he's on the, he's on the cusp.

   6. SPSpeaker3:19

      My daughter speak no hablo Inglés.

   7. TNTrevor Noah3:20

      [laughs]

   8. SPSpeaker3:20

      My young, my daughter does not speak English. [laughs]

   9. TNTrevor Noah3:22

      How, how old are your kids? How old are your kids? [laughs]

   10. SPSpeaker3:24

       My son is four. My daughter is 18 months.

   11. TNTrevor Noah3:26

       Oh.

   12. SPSpeaker3:26

       And I'm like, "Luna, Trump's America, you need to, [laughs] you need to learn to speak English."

   13. SSSimon Sinek3:30

       Well, there's a, there's, there's, the, so there's a, if you care about this stuff-

   14. SPSpeaker3:33

       Yeah, I do.

   15. SSSimon Sinek3:34

       So, um, I, I, s- I'm bilingual.

   16. SPSpeaker3:38

       Okay.

   17. SSSimon Sinek3:38

       I speak English and American.

   18. SPSpeaker3:39

       Okay.

   19. TNTrevor Noah3:40

       [laughs]

   20. SPSpeaker3:41

       Which are very different languages, by the way.

   21. SSSimon Sinek3:42

       100%. So you know, like kids who have French parents, you know, they'll like, just start speaking French to their parents. They, they, they just, they go between-

   22. SPSpeaker3:49

       Yeah

   23. SSSimon Sinek3:49

       ... English, French, English, French. Well, I do that. Like, when I talk to my parents or when I talk to my friends in England, I have an English accent.

   24. SPSpeaker3:54

       Yeah.

   25. SSSimon Sinek3:55

       I u- use English vocabulary. When I talk to my American friends, I speak American. So I, I bounce-

   26. SPSpeaker3:58

       Yeah

   27. SSSimon Sinek3:58

       ... between the two. My sister's 100% American. Can't even fake an English accent.

   28. SPSpeaker4:03

       That's so interesting.

   29. SSSimon Sinek4:04

       There's a feral, they found these feral kids in India.

   30. SPSpeaker4:07

       Mm-hmm.
5. 7:02 – 9:24

   Why world leaders seem lost: from Cold War clarity to today’s messy alliances

   1. TNTrevor Noah7:02

      I, I, you know, I resent all of these comments. But either way, I'm, I'm happy to have you here. Before I get into, like, my stuff, I wanted to know, is there a puzzle you're trying to solve right now that we can help you with?

   2. SSSimon Sinek7:12

      So, I mean, the, the simple answer is yes. The, I am absolutely, absolutely fascinated by the world order. This is not something we're gonna solve in a podcast.

   3. TNTrevor Noah7:21

      No, we will. We will.

   4. SSSimon Sinek7:22

      But, but, uh-

   5. TNTrevor Noah7:22

      We've got, like, 50 something odd minutes.

   6. SPSpeaker7:24

      [laughs]

   7. SSSimon Sinek7:24

      Perfect. So I, I-

   8. TNTrevor Noah7:25

      Most world orders I can solve in 30.

   9. SPSpeaker7:27

      [laughs]

   10. SSSimon Sinek7:27

       So I just, I find this, the world order just absolutely fascinating. You know, and trying to understand how we got here as well, you know, where we went from the Cold War, or Cold War 1.0, where it was very neat, it was very neatly organized.

   11. TNTrevor Noah7:41

       Yeah.

   12. SSSimon Sinek7:42

       You had democracy and capitalists on one side, and communists on the other side, and it was very clearly delineated that if you were communist, we weren't your friends.

   13. TNTrevor Noah7:52

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SSSimon Sinek7:52

       And that was it.

   15. TNTrevor Noah7:52

       Mm-hmm.

   16. SSSimon Sinek7:52

       All the communists were on one team, and all the democracies and capitalists, or those who aspired to be, were on the other team. Play. It was very, very simple. And both, both were reasonably rational and played by very similar rules. Well, that doesn't exist anymore, and we now have ideologies mixed together. Uh, our adversaries are also our trading partners. It's a complete mess, and cons- continues to get messier, and I'm absolutely fascinated by how our leaders don't really understand the world that we're operating in and how we got here, and yet they're attempting to make decisions to manage it or lead it.

   17. TNTrevor Noah8:32

       So this is great because, um-

   18. SSSimon Sinek8:34

       All of your listeners are tuned in for this.

   19. TNTrevor Noah8:36

       No, no, this is great.

   20. SPSpeaker8:37

       [laughs]

   21. SSSimon Sinek8:37

       [laughs]

   22. TNTrevor Noah8:37

       This is, this is why, this is why people listen, trust me. This is why people listen, because I, I feel like to give people a little more context, you know, like, you, you blew up on the scene many years ago. Now, I think you've had, like, multiple moments that have really put you into the zeitgeist.

   23. SSSimon Sinek8:53

       Mm-hmm.

   24. TNTrevor Noah8:54

       But one thing that I think has separated you from many people is that y- you're seen as somebody who is inspirational and, and thought-provoking and, and really a modern day philosopher in how we see the world. But then you, you're also seen like that by institutions in some ways. You know, like, so you'll, you'll get brought in to speak to, like, military leaders or personnel and, you know, you'll get brought in to speak into, like, parts of government or companies. They'll go, like, "Simon, we, we need you to come in." Okay, I'm gonna ask you a q- you don't have to expose anybody here.

   25. SSSimon Sinek9:23

       Mm-hmm.

6. 9:24 – 13:05

   ‘Are bosses idiots?’ Tactical vs. strategic thinking and the promotion trap

   1. TNTrevor Noah9:24

      And I'll, I'll tell you what I think about it, and then I'd love to know your opinion on it. In my time traveling around the world and spending a lot of time with leaders in America, not political by the way, just across the board.

   2. SSSimon Sinek9:36

      Mm-hmm.

   3. TNTrevor Noah9:36

      People who have power over other people in any way, shape, or form.

   4. SSSimon Sinek9:39

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   5. TNTrevor Noah9:39

      I have been shocked at how much people who are in charge of shit do not know what is going on.

   6. SPSpeaker9:47

      [laughs]

   7. TNTrevor Noah9:47

      And I'm going to repeat this a little bit slower, 'cause it shocked me when I came to the realization.

   8. SSSimon Sinek9:51

      Mm-hmm.

   9. TNTrevor Noah9:52

      Most of the pe- many even of the people, let's not say most.

   10. SSSimon Sinek9:56

       Mm-hmm.

   11. TNTrevor Noah9:56

       Many of the people-

   12. SSSimon Sinek9:57

       Mm-hmm

   13. TNTrevor Noah9:57

       ... who are in charge-

   14. SSSimon Sinek9:58

       Mm-hmm

   15. TNTrevor Noah9:58

       ... of companies, of, uh, institutions-

   16. SPSpeaker10:02

       Mm-hmm

   17. TNTrevor Noah10:02

       ... of, like, you know, states, they do not know-

   18. SPSpeaker10:07

       Yeah

   19. TNTrevor Noah10:07

       ... what is going on.

   20. SPSpeaker10:09

       Mm-hmm.

   21. SSSimon Sinek10:10

       Yeah.

   22. TNTrevor Noah10:10

       It's an amateur point of view because I, I don't work, like, with them. So you're the person who works with them.

   23. SSSimon Sinek10:15

       Yeah.

   24. TNTrevor Noah10:15

       I wanna know, like, the people who are running the world-

   25. SSSimon Sinek10:18

       Yeah

   26. TNTrevor Noah10:18

       ... do they know what they're doing?

   27. SSSimon Sinek10:19

       I think your assessment is, is pretty spot on. I mean-

   28. TNTrevor Noah10:22

       Damn, we're in trouble.

   29. SPSpeaker10:23

       [laughs]

   30. SSSimon Sinek10:23

       You know, the ... But, but, like, when, when I work with government or I work with military, like, I'm constantly amazed at how much they know, and simultaneously amazed at how little they know.
7. 13:05 – 18:48

   Middle management pain: the ‘angry smart person,’ EQ, and leading where you stand

   1. SPSpeaker13:05

      I think we've all worked in places where we've been like, you know, "My boss is an idiot," right?

   2. SSSimon Sinek13:10

      Yeah.

   3. SPSpeaker13:10

      And so for the person who's-

   4. SSSimon Sinek13:11

      But that wasn't you at The Daily Show, right?

   5. SPSpeaker13:12

      No. I was like, "My boss is this smart South African" [laughs]

   6. SSSimon Sinek13:15

      Okay. All right.

   7. SPSpeaker13:16

      He's so brilliant. [laughs]

   8. SSSimon Sinek13:16

      'Cause I don't know many places you've worked. I'm just trying to narrow it down.

   9. TNTrevor Noah13:19

      Why, why, why ... That's an interesting, we've all worked in place ... Wow. That was a ...

   10. SPSpeaker13:24

       [laughs]

   11. TNTrevor Noah13:25

       [laughs] But I actually think Christiane does think or did think that maybe.

   12. SPSpeaker13:29

       I didn't think you were an idiot.

   13. TNTrevor Noah13:30

       Okay. Okay.

   14. SPSpeaker13:31

       I didn't think you were an idiot.

   15. SSSimon Sinek13:31

       Do you think of yourself as an idiot?

   16. TNTrevor Noah13:32

       I actually do.

   17. SSSimon Sinek13:33

       'Cause I think of myself as an idiot.

   18. SPSpeaker13:34

       No, I don't think of you that.

   19. TNTrevor Noah13:34

       And I mean this honestly.

   20. SPSpeaker13:35

       But I constantly disagreed with him. I still disagree, but, but then I was like, "This guy, I'm-

   21. TNTrevor Noah13:38

       Which is, which means I'm an idiot

   22. SPSpeaker13:39

       ... I was like, "He's so-

   23. SSSimon Sinek13:39

       Which makes for great entertainment, by the way

   24. SPSpeaker13:41

       ... I was like, "This is ..."

   25. TNTrevor Noah13:42

       [laughs]

   26. SPSpeaker13:43

       I was like, "He's mad" [laughs] .

   27. TNTrevor Noah13:46

       [laughs]

   28. SPSpeaker13:46

       And he thought the same of me, so ... And, but I thought he was, I always thought Trevor's brilliant. So it wasn't that I thought he was an idiot.

   29. SSSimon Sinek13:52

       A br- brilliant and an idiot.

   30. SPSpeaker13:54

       Brilliant idiot. Maybe-
8. 18:48 – 26:17

   Gossip vs. venting: when stories protect the tribe—and when they poison it

   1. SPSpeaker18:48

      Could you tell the audience more about your view on gossip? 'Cause I come on, on the other side of it, and I don't like the word gossip. I think we should call it oral history, because that's what it is.

   2. SSSimon Sinek18:57

      [laughs]

   3. TNTrevor Noah18:57

      [laughs] Oh.

   4. SPSpeaker18:58

      Oral history in real time. In real time.

   5. TNTrevor Noah19:01

      Is that true?

   6. SPSpeaker19:02

      Yeah. I mean, I, I come from a line of griots.

   7. SSSimon Sinek19:05

      [clears throat]

   8. SPSpeaker19:05

      West African.

   9. TNTrevor Noah19:06

      But isn't it-

   10. SPSpeaker19:06

       And I love stories of the past-

   11. TNTrevor Noah19:07

       But wait, wait, wait

   12. SPSpeaker19:07

       ... orally.

   13. TNTrevor Noah19:07

       Yeah, but no, how do you define gossip then?

   14. SPSpeaker19:09

       So, like, g- I think gossip is really important for protecting the tribe. It's how we-

   15. TNTrevor Noah19:13

       No, no, but how do you define gossip?

   16. SPSpeaker19:14

       What do I define g-

   17. TNTrevor Noah19:15

       Like, what do you ... So what I mean is, like, okay, for me, when I hear gossip, I go, gossip is a story about something or someone-

   18. SPSpeaker19:22

       Yeah

   19. TNTrevor Noah19:22

       ... from my perspective that is salacious in some way, shape, or form.

   20. SPSpeaker19:26

       Okay.

   21. TNTrevor Noah19:26

       But it isn't necessarily the same as history, because history's a thing that happened. And I ... Look, everyone's gonna be biased, but I always feel like telling a story involves, like, a little, um, I think it's two things. Okay. So the main one is trying to be impartial. You, you don't gossip about the history of your people. You just tell the story of it, right? That's what I think of with, like, the griots and the-

   22. SPSpeaker19:48

       But, you know, but, you know, history and gossip is interchangeable for me.

   23. TNTrevor Noah19:50

       No, no, I'm, I'm, I'm with you in some ways.

   24. SPSpeaker19:52

       You know? Yeah.

   25. TNTrevor Noah19:52

       And then the second one for me, and this is a big one, is I don't think people ever need to whisper about histories. Like-

   26. SPSpeaker19:58

       Oh, some people should, should-

   27. TNTrevor Noah19:59

       No, no, I mean, I mean amongst, like ... Do you get what I'm saying?

   28. SPSpeaker20:00

       Yeah.

   29. TNTrevor Noah20:00

       That's what I always think, like, a gossip for me is. This is my personal ... Is, like, if you ever need to, like, look before you say the thing, I think that's more gossip than history. Like, I never need to say to you, like, if you go, like, "Christiana, tell me about your family." And then I go, like, "Well, my mom, so my mom started working when she wa-

   30. SSSimon Sinek20:17

       [laughs]
9. 26:17 – 27:42

   A practical anti-toxicity tool: add alternative explanations before judging

   1. SSSimon Sinek26:17

      So what, so, uh, we, we did this in our company.

   2. SPSpeaker26:19

      Yeah.

   3. SSSimon Sinek26:19

      Because I was very public about it with the whole team, which is I said, "From now on, when somebody says something about someone's intentions or, uh, uh, or, or labels their character, it is everyone's responsibility in that meeting to interrupt that train of thought and raise the question." So for example, "That guy's so lazy," right? "Oh my God, he's so lazy." All that's needed is for anybody in the room to say, "Could be lazy."

   4. SPSpeaker26:44

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SSSimon Sinek26:45

      Or could be stressed or has some stuff going on at home, or we've put them in a job they don't know how to do it and so they're freaking out. Like, to just add to a list of other possibilities that it could be that's a, that's, that's getting the results that we're getting. Lazy's absolutely on the list.

   6. SPSpeaker27:00

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SSSimon Sinek27:01

      And it's just giving people grace that we're not judging why they're performing the way they are or why they are the way they are, you know?

   8. SPSpeaker27:08

      Mm-hmm.

   9. SSSimon Sinek27:08

      So like, I, I'm, I'll give you another example. I went for a walk with a friend of mine. She wanted some advice. And, uh, she, the, the, the conversation started like this. "My boss is a horrible person." And I immediately interrupted and said, "Oh my God, does she kick her dog and abuse her children?" She said, "No." I said, "Okay, so we don't know that she's a horrible person. We know that she's a horrible boss." Those are two very, very different things, and I think that's the problem when we label someone's behavior or skill set versus labeling their character. And when we label their character, it's insidious and dangerous, and that's when it gets toxic. [upbeat music]

10. 27:42 – 30:45

    Companies as modern tribes: values-based organizations and why ‘values’ feel fake

    1. TNTrevor Noah27:42

       We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break. [upbeat music] You know, when I, when I'm listening to this, I can't help but, but wonder if, we always talk about companies as if they're these isolated spaces. But it feels like you live in a world where you're constantly exposed to the Petri dishes of society.

    2. SSSimon Sinek28:09

       Mm-hmm.

    3. TNTrevor Noah28:10

       'Cause what is a company, if not a manufactured community?

    4. SSSimon Sinek28:12

       It's a collection of people. It's all it is.

    5. TNTrevor Noah28:13

       Right? It's a collection of people.

    6. SPSpeaker28:14

       Yeah.

    7. SSSimon Sinek28:14

       It's the modern tribe.

    8. TNTrevor Noah28:15

       There you go.

    9. SSSimon Sinek28:16

       That's all it is.

    10. TNTrevor Noah28:16

        And so these are the people you, because of, let's say, your job, maybe you chose, but you sort of didn't choose them because you, you weren't the person hiring all of them.

    11. SPSpeaker28:24

        Mm-hmm.

    12. TNTrevor Noah28:24

        And you weren't the person.

    13. SSSimon Sinek28:25

        Mm-hmm.

    14. TNTrevor Noah28:25

        So in many ways, it is like a tribe. It is like a community. These people have happened into your life, and now you have to choose how to treat them and how not to treat them. So I, the th- the thing that pops into my mind as I'm thinking about this is, is it harder for us to be better or to treat people or to give them the benefit of the doubt in a corporate setting? Or is this just a magnifying glass that's put on us and our ability outside of the corporate set- Like, like, where have you found it easier to apply these principles? 'Cause everything you're saying to me-

    15. SSSimon Sinek28:59

        Mm

    16. TNTrevor Noah28:59

        ... sounds like things we should be doing in real life, right?

    17. SSSimon Sinek29:01

        Yeah.

    18. TNTrevor Noah29:01

        So we should go, "I don't like that person's music. I don't like how they looked in some pictures. I don't like the way they speak." I don't, as opposed to saying, "That person's an asshole."

    19. SPSpeaker29:11

        Yeah.

    20. SSSimon Sinek29:11

        Mm-hmm.

    21. TNTrevor Noah29:11

        And it's like, well, how do you know they're an asshole? I can tell.

    22. SPSpeaker29:14

        Yeah.

    23. SSSimon Sinek29:14

        Mm-hmm.

    24. TNTrevor Noah29:14

        You're like, okay, but what of them?

    25. SSSimon Sinek29:15

        Mm-hmm.

    26. SPSpeaker29:16

        Yeah.

    27. TNTrevor Noah29:16

        You know? And we've seen this happen online.

    28. SSSimon Sinek29:18

        Sure.

    29. TNTrevor Noah29:18

        You can just, like, build, all of a sudden there's, like, a movement.

    30. SSSimon Sinek29:21

        Mm-hmm.
11. 30:45 – 34:46

    How Milton Friedman shaped today’s capitalism: shareholder primacy, layoffs, and populist backlash

    1. SSSimon Sinek30:45

       So you are highlighting the very problem with modern capitalism, right? The capitalism that we have today is not Adam Smith capitalism. That's not, that's not the capitalism we have today. We have a bastardized form of capitalism influenced by an, a, a, a, a, a, an economist from the late '70s named Milton Friedman. The Adam Smith version of capitalism was that the baker selfishly wants to make the best bread so that they can sell more bread than-

    2. TNTrevor Noah31:10

       Okay

    3. SSSimon Sinek31:10

       ... all the other bakers.

    4. TNTrevor Noah31:11

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SSSimon Sinek31:11

       And the, the butcher selfishly wants to make the best meat so he can sell more than all the other butchers. And the, the, the c- the dairy farmer wants to make the best butter so that he can sell more, and what you get is the best sandwich. What we as the customer get is the best sandwich, right? So the selfish behavior of wanting to be better than their others benefits the customer, right? And in the late 1970s, Milton Friedman wrote a, a, an op-ed in The New York Times where he basically proposed a new definition of business. He actually called it The Responsibility of Business. The responsibility of business was to maximize profit within the bounds of the rules. Forget about ethics.

    6. TNTrevor Noah31:43

       Maximize profits-

    7. SSSimon Sinek31:44

       Within the bounds-

    8. TNTrevor Noah31:45

       Within the bounds of the rules

    9. SSSimon Sinek31:45

       ... of the rules.

    10. TNTrevor Noah31:46

        Okay.

    11. SSSimon Sinek31:46

        Right? Ethics are a higher standard than the rules, and you see it all the time. You know, companies did some horrifically unethical things.

    12. TNTrevor Noah31:53

        Right.

    13. SSSimon Sinek31:53

        You know, they-

    14. TNTrevor Noah31:53

        Yeah

    15. SSSimon Sinek31:53

        ... a patent to an essential drug-

    16. TNTrevor Noah31:55

        Yeah

    17. SSSimon Sinek31:55

        ... and they raised the price-

    18. TNTrevor Noah31:56

        Yeah

    19. SSSimon Sinek31:56

        ... 1500%.

    20. TNTrevor Noah31:57

        Right. It's within the rules, but it's not-

    21. SSSimon Sinek31:58

        And they all say the same thing: We broke no laws.

    22. TNTrevor Noah32:00

        Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    23. SSSimon Sinek32:01

        Which is true, right? Horrible, but not illegal, right? And so in the late '70s and early '80s, a lot of the sort of the ruling classes, the CEO classes, heard this definition and went, "Yeah, baby," right?

    24. TNTrevor Noah32:14

        Mm.

    25. SSSimon Sinek32:14

        And they embraced Friedman's definition of capitalism, the, or business, the responsibility to business, and they sort of doubled down on it. And you started ... It gave rise to some entirely new behaviors and entirely new CEOs. There was no s-

    26. TNTrevor Noah32:26

        This is just from this op-ed?

    27. SSSimon Sinek32:28

        Uh, yeah, yeah. I mean, like, it became a popular thing.

    28. TNTrevor Noah32:30

        Wow, Milton, that's a, that's a-

    29. SSSimon Sinek32:32

        Milton Friedman

    30. TNTrevor Noah32:32

        ... high hit rate. Well done, Milton.
12. 34:46 – 38:41

    The alpha social contract: why people accept inequality until leaders stop protecting the tribe

    1. SSSimon Sinek34:46

       It's become a game for a few so they can, so they can command more wealth. And, and just to, just to put a, a one final sort of cap on it, if you go back to the anthropology of leadership, like if we go back, you know, 50,000 years, whatever you wanna do, where we lived in tribes that were never bigger than about 150, 200 people, human beings evolved into naturally hierarchical animals. We're constantly assessing and judging who's alpha, depending on whatever the standards are for that, for that group. Who's alpha? And we treat our alphas differently, right? You know this. As soon as you started getting some fame-

    2. TNTrevor Noah35:20

       [laughs]

    3. SSSimon Sinek35:20

       ... you're better looking and all your jokes are funnier, right?

    4. TNTrevor Noah35:22

       [laughs]

    5. SSSimon Sinek35:22

       If you leave your jacket in another room, somebody goes and gets your jacket for you. If you're junior and you leave a jacket in the other room, you get your own jacket, right? That's just how it works. And so what we did was we assessed our alphas, and we stepped back, and we allowed our alphas to get first choice of meat and first choice of mate, except the group is not stupid. We don't give first choice of meat and first choice of mate to our alphas for nothing. There's a deep-seated social contract that when danger threatens the tribe, we expect the person who's actually stronger, actually smarter, actually better fed, to confront the danger to protect the tribe. That's why we give you all the perks. This ... It's not ... You don't get the perks for free. They come at a cost. And so that's the deep-seated social contract. We have no problem with CEOs making more money than us. Where it broke the contract and why you get the anger is not the disparity. It's when we started to see the people who are in alpha positions, when danger threatened the tribe, the economy took a little shake, whatever it is, that they would sooner sacrifice the people to protect their own interests rather than sacrifice their interests for the short term to protect the people, and that's why we're getting the populist reaction. That's what it is. It's, it's, it's the people saying, "You have, you have violated your-"

    6. TNTrevor Noah36:35

       Right.

    7. SSSimon Sinek36:35

       "... and so we're coming for you with pitchforks."

    8. TNTrevor Noah36:36

       I mean, it's, it's no different in many ways To what we see in countries, right?

    9. SSSimon Sinek36:41

       100%.

    10. TNTrevor Noah36:42

        So people will say, we want democracy. Like the idea of democracy is very popular because it's been attached to things like fairness and equality, et cetera. But I would argue most people would be fine living in a dictatorship or under monarchy if their lives were good.

    11. SSSimon Sinek37:01

        Benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government.

    12. TNTrevor Noah37:04

        Yeah. Like it's like-

    13. SSSimon Sinek37:04

        But the-

    14. TNTrevor Noah37:04

        ... people don't actually care really

    15. SSSimon Sinek37:06

        ... the problem is succession.

    16. TNTrevor Noah37:07

        Yeah.

    17. SSSimon Sinek37:07

        Yeah.

    18. TNTrevor Noah37:07

        That, that, that's actually the thing, you know?

    19. SPSpeaker37:09

        Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    20. TNTrevor Noah37:09

        And so what you're saying now is, I think of how many people, let's say in America, we start with the US. O- one of the more interesting things I saw was on, um, um, AOC, uh, AOC's, um, Instagram page, right? Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

    21. SSSimon Sinek37:24

        Mm-hmm.

    22. TNTrevor Noah37:24

        She asked people after the election, "Hey, I noticed that Trump won the election."

    23. SPSpeaker37:30

        Mm.

    24. TNTrevor Noah37:31

        "But he lost on the down ballots in many places. And now a lot of people are saying, this is a conspiracy. They're saying, how could Trump have won the election?"

    25. SPSpeaker37:39

        Mm-hmm.

    26. TNTrevor Noah37:39

        "But the people in these certain counties and whatever, or states, they voted Democrat, but then Trump won? What's, what's going on here?" And so she said, "Just for me, can you all tell me if you voted for me and Trump? I wanna know if that's possible." And her, I don't know what the number was, but it looked like she was flooded with replies and then she started posting them on her page. And it was amazing to see how many people said, "I voted for you and Trump."

    27. SSSimon Sinek38:05

        Yeah.

    28. TNTrevor Noah38:06

        Because while you two don't see eye to eye, you are both doing the same thing-

    29. SSSimon Sinek38:11

        Correct

    30. TNTrevor Noah38:11

        ... in my eyes, which is you're dismantling the system-
13. 38:41 – 57:37

    Can CEOs change? Incentive structures, purpose statements, and the ‘cultish’ trap

    1. TNTrevor Noah38:41

       Yeah, but how do they respond when you, because you actually hang out with CEOs. How do they respond?

    2. SSSimon Sinek38:45

       Well, the ones who agree with me hang out with me.

    3. TNTrevor Noah38:47

       Ah, okay.

    4. SSSimon Sinek38:47

       The ones who don't agree with me don't, don't call me. Um, uh, but-

    5. TNTrevor Noah38:51

       Have you ever changed a CEO's mind?

    6. SSSimon Sinek38:54

       The problem is not their mind, the problem is their incentive structure. Like I remember I was d- I was working with a CEO and gave him some counsel on sort of how to organize things better, and he was really honest. He's like, "I totally agree with everything you're telling me, and your, your insights are spot on, and I completely agree, and I'm gonna implement none of it. Because if I do it your way, I won't get my bonus." He was just very blunt with me.

    7. TNTrevor Noah39:20

       Damn.

    8. SSSimon Sinek39:20

       And so-

    9. TNTrevor Noah39:20

       There you have it, folks

    10. SSSimon Sinek39:21

        ... and so, but the, but there are good leaders who are taking risks to fight the machine. There's also a younger generation of leaders that are coming up. The newer companies, the newer CEOs, um, are, are raising these questions, and you start to hear things like triple bottom line, and you start to hear these things. But you're 100% right, you know, the number of ... Look, the fact that, um, uh, what's it, the, I've forgotten the, all the businesses that come together at the ... I've forgotten what the, what they're called. But a few years ago, they put out a statement saying purpose really matters at, in business.

    11. TNTrevor Noah39:52

        Okay.

    12. SSSimon Sinek39:53

        But when I started, like if, if you talked about purpose at work, you were just a weird-ass hippie, and every company has a purpose statement on their website, even if they don't follow it-

    13. SPSpeaker40:02

        But-

    14. SSSimon Sinek40:02

        ... even if it's just 'cause they have to.

    15. TNTrevor Noah40:03

        Yeah.

    16. SPSpeaker40:04

        I-

    17. SSSimon Sinek40:04

        But that's at least progress.

    18. SPSpeaker40:05

        I think it's-

    19. TNTrevor Noah40:06

        [laughs]

    20. SPSpeaker40:06

        ... 'cause, like we probably fall on different parts of the capitalist debate, and we're not gonna get into it because I hate capitalism. Um, and I, I don't think-

    21. TNTrevor Noah40:16

        But you are champagne socialist.

    22. SPSpeaker40:18

        I don't, I don't think it's a system that can be redeemed-

    23. TNTrevor Noah40:20

        [laughs]

    24. SPSpeaker40:20

        ... personally, especially America's history of racial capitalism. Um, I guess I object to the fact that why should I find purpose in work? Like, I actually deeply recoil when I hear that because I'm just like, oh, so you want me to feel ... Like it's like kinda like the wellness industry, right?

    25. TNTrevor Noah40:36

        No.

    26. SPSpeaker40:36

        This way of feeling good about yourself in order to sell me more things, and I'm like, why should my ... To me, my purpose can never ever be in work, God forbid, an office, and God forbid my boss coming to me and saying like, "What's your why?" And I'm like, "Well, my why is to be with my family and my friends and my community."

    27. TNTrevor Noah40:54

        Right.

    28. SPSpeaker40:54

        This is just how I make money.

    29. TNTrevor Noah40:55

        Is that all this is for you, a transaction?

    30. SPSpeaker40:57

        Yeah. Especially Trevor. Ah, I saw the transaction.
14. 57:37 – 1:06:19

    One ‘why’ for life: origin stories, meaning at work, and Simon diagnoses Trevor’s purpose

    1. SSSimon Sinek57:37

       The difference is they're not actually living them or doing them. To go to your point about the why, the, a why is fundamentally an origin story. That's all it is. And a why does not change. You have one why your whole life, and that's it. 'Cause you are the sum total of how you were raised.

    2. TNTrevor Noah57:54

       You, you have one why your whole life?

    3. SSSimon Sinek57:55

       You have one why your whole life. You are the s-

    4. TNTrevor Noah57:57

       Whoa, whoa, whoa, Simon.

    5. SPSpeaker57:58

       [laughs]

    6. TNTrevor Noah57:58

       Now I'm gonna be fighting with you before we go. Wait, what?

    7. SSSimon Sinek58:01

       Yes. You are-

    8. TNTrevor Noah58:02

       Tell me more. Tell me more

    9. SSSimon Sinek58:02

       Oh, and now we're out of time.

    10. TNTrevor Noah58:04

        [laughs]

    11. SPSpeaker58:05

        [laughs]

    12. TNTrevor Noah58:07

        You have one why.

    13. SSSimon Sinek58:08

        You have one why your entire life, because you are the product of how you were raised.

    14. TNTrevor Noah58:13

        Okay.

    15. SSSimon Sinek58:14

        That's, I mean, you're not gonna ... Like, you are who you are.

    16. TNTrevor Noah58:16

        Okay.

    17. SSSimon Sinek58:17

        And there's nothing that can happen in your life that will make you not who you are. Now, you can pretend you're someone different. We would call you inauthentic, and when I uncover a why, literally all I'm doing is going backwards to discover the patterns of what made you who you are, and then I'm trying to put words on them. And it's the same for a company. Walt Disney, when it does things right, is fundamentally the origin story, story of Walt Disney's vision of the world, this escape from the stressful lives that we have to go into this magical place, and we can leave reality for a moment.

    18. TNTrevor Noah58:45

        Mm-hmm.

    19. SSSimon Sinek58:45

        It's an, that's literally what it says in the plaque outside Disneyland, you know? And that's all, it's, if you look at the beginnings of things. We can do a little, we can here, let's have a little fun.

    20. TNTrevor Noah58:55

        I've been having fun, just for the record.

    21. SPSpeaker58:57

        [laughs] Simon's like, "I haven't been having fun."

    22. TNTrevor Noah58:59

        I've only been having fun.

    23. SSSimon Sinek59:00

        This is torturous.

    24. SPSpeaker59:01

        It's my turn. [laughs]

    25. TNTrevor Noah59:01

        [laughs]

    26. SPSpeaker59:03

        Welcome to What Now? with Trevor Noah. [laughs]

    27. TNTrevor Noah59:05

        [laughs] I've only been having fun.

    28. SSSimon Sinek59:09

        Tell me something specific that you've worked on in your entire career. It does not have to have been commercially successful.

    29. TNTrevor Noah59:14

        Okay.

    30. SSSimon Sinek59:15

        But t- something specific that you worked on in your career that you loved being a part of, and if every project was like this one thing, you'd be the happiest person alive.
15. 1:06:19 – 1:14:59

    For those without options: service as the ‘hack’ to rebuild community and joy

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:06:19

       I love this for me. No, no, I appreciate it, but th- so the last thing I'll ask you before we go is this then. For the person, and I think this is sort of what cristiana is saying, for those who are not lucky enough to find themselves in that place, in that moment, some people- Mm ... can't be in a park, they can't choose the kids, they can't... Do you get what I'm saying?

    2. SSSimon Sinek1:06:37

       So you, you're, you're-

    3. TNTrevor Noah1:06:37

       What is the, what is the trick that you would recommend? And I mean this honestly, because I go, I really go every-

    4. SSSimon Sinek1:06:41

       You're comparing your why everybody has-

    5. TNTrevor Noah1:06:45

       Yes

    6. SSSimon Sinek1:06:45

       ... so, like, so, and it doesn't have to be a happy childhood memory. So I did this with somebody a, a, a few years ago, and I said, "Tell me an early childhood memory." And they said, "I had a horrible childhood."

    7. TNTrevor Noah1:06:53

       Yes.

    8. SSSimon Sinek1:06:53

       I said, "Well, tell me another, another, any memory." And they said, "I had a very, very alcoholic, abusive father."

    9. TNTrevor Noah1:06:59

       Mm-hmm.

    10. SSSimon Sinek1:06:59

        "And he would go on these drunken rampages, and I remember hiding in the closet, um, w- and I wrapped my sister underneath me to protect her from my father." And, you know, we're both crying as she's telling this story. She's a protector. She wakes up every day to protect those who can't protect themselves. I can bring my, I can make myself, bring myself to tears talking about it, right? And she was struck by this pattern. That she's, she's at her natural best and she finds peace when she's able to offer protection to others-

    11. TNTrevor Noah1:07:29

        Mm-hmm

    12. SSSimon Sinek1:07:30

        ... from, from whatever it is. And so these patterns exist for everyone. They're not the same as yours.

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:07:36

        Right.

    14. SSSimon Sinek1:07:37

        And whenever y- somebody hears that pattern, the result is goosebumps, some sort of emotional response.

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:07:43

        So all I ask you is for that person now, let's, let's imagine a person who goes, "Simon, I don't have much in the way of my community." And this is because of, you know, a series of factors.

    16. SPSpeaker1:07:52

        Yeah.

    17. TNTrevor Noah1:07:52

        You know, there isn't a club, there isn't a that, there isn't whatever. I work because this was the only job I could get.

    18. SSSimon Sinek1:07:57

        Mm-hmm.

    19. SPSpeaker1:07:57

        Mm-hmm.

    20. TNTrevor Noah1:07:58

        So I don't have the luxury of being recruited-

    21. SSSimon Sinek1:07:59

        Mm

    22. TNTrevor Noah1:07:59

        ... and I haven't been found by where I would like to be found.

    23. SSSimon Sinek1:08:02

        Mm-hmm.

    24. TNTrevor Noah1:08:02

        Okay?

    25. SSSimon Sinek1:08:03

        Mm-hmm.

    26. TNTrevor Noah1:08:04

        But I'm also looking for a piece of this.

    27. SSSimon Sinek1:08:06

        Mm-hmm.

    28. TNTrevor Noah1:08:06

        And my job is a soul-sucking experience where they want me here from the earliest time to the latest time.

    29. SSSimon Sinek1:08:11

        Mm-hmm.

    30. TNTrevor Noah1:08:11

        And I give all of my energy to this thing, and then when I get home, I have to look after my family and, and this is a-

Episode duration: 1:15:00