Why Trying to Fix Your Life Is Making It Worse

1. 0:00 – 0:45

   Trevor's Favorite Book

   1. TNTrevor Noah0:00

      [upbeat music] You- you've probably written, for me personally, I think for many people, but for me personally, one of the most, um, influential and important books of my life, so thank you.

   2. OBOliver Burkeman0:14

      Oh, I'm so glad to hear it.

   3. TNTrevor Noah0:16

      Yeah.

   4. OBOliver Burkeman0:16

      What book is that?

   5. TNTrevor Noah0:17

      Four Thousand Weeks. Changed my entire life.

   6. OBOliver Burkeman0:19

      Um, slightly blows my mind, but I'm very, very happy to hear it.

   7. TNTrevor Noah0:22

      Changed my entire life on this planet.

   8. EUEugene0:26

      Which... How and why? [upbeat music]

   9. OBOliver Burkeman0:33

      This is What Now? With Trevor Noah.

   10. EUEugene0:35

       [upbeat music]

2. 0:45 – 4:30

   The Strangest Conversation About Airplane Beds

   1. EUEugene0:46

      What airline is this?

   2. TNTrevor Noah0:47

      Air New Zealand has, um, they have a bed section in the back of the plane now. Six bunk beds.

   3. OBOliver Burkeman0:55

      All right.

   4. TNTrevor Noah0:56

      With, like, a full mattress, closes off where you sleep-

   5. EUEugene0:59

      Seven feet

   6. TNTrevor Noah0:59

      ... total darkness.

   7. OBOliver Burkeman1:00

      Right.

   8. TNTrevor Noah1:00

      And you go and sleep in that pod for, like, four hours, and you just book it. I think it's a great idea.

   9. OBOliver Burkeman1:05

      I think so, yeah.

   10. EUEugene1:07

       So my-

   11. OBOliver Burkeman1:08

       But you don't, you don't think so. [laughs]

   12. EUEugene1:10

       My issue is any passenger who's at economy going up there and sleeping for four hours.

   13. OBOliver Burkeman1:19

       Mm-hmm.

   14. EUEugene1:19

       One, I know that passengers at economy like taking advantage of situations. I've seen how they abuse the drinks.

   15. TNTrevor Noah1:26

       I like how you're saying they-

   16. EUEugene1:27

       Irish coffees

   17. TNTrevor Noah1:28

       ... like you didn't fly economy your whole life.

   18. EUEugene1:29

       My man.

   19. TNTrevor Noah1:30

       This guy, making it seem like-

   20. EUEugene1:32

       [laughs]

   21. TNTrevor Noah1:32

       You making it seem... If I was to apportion your flights-

   22. EUEugene1:35

       Yeah

   23. TNTrevor Noah1:36

       ... as a pie chart-

   24. EUEugene1:36

       Yeah. [laughs]

   25. TNTrevor Noah1:38

       ... the portion of your life that's business class and the portion that's econ- you, you... We wouldn't even see the slither of business class.

   26. EUEugene1:44

       And that's enough for me.

   27. TNTrevor Noah1:45

       [laughs]

   28. EUEugene1:47

       It's enough for me to know.

   29. TNTrevor Noah1:48

       I like how you say they, not us.

   30. EUEugene1:50

       It's enough for me to know. Because I've seen flight attendants coming to gossip about economy class passengers at business class.
3. 4:30 – 8:00

   Why 4,000 Weeks Changes Everything

   1. OBOliver Burkeman4:30

      Well, I certainly don't have the same accent as you.

   2. TNTrevor Noah4:33

      Yeah.

   3. OBOliver Burkeman4:34

      Um, but, uh-

   4. EUEugene4:35

      [laughs]

   5. TNTrevor Noah4:35

      That's what-

   6. OBOliver Burkeman4:36

      Sorry about that.

   7. TNTrevor Noah4:37

      That's... No, you don't have to be sorry. It's just like I had this, like, in my head.

   8. EUEugene4:40

      [laughs]

   9. TNTrevor Noah4:41

      You sounded like me.

   10. EUEugene4:43

       Yeah.

   11. OBOliver Burkeman4:43

       Yeah.

   12. TNTrevor Noah4:43

       And now I'm like, wait, where are you from?

   13. OBOliver Burkeman4:46

       Yeah.

   14. TNTrevor Noah4:46

       It's like an interesting... You... Also because you've, you've, you've probably written, for me personally, I think for many people, but for me personally, one of the most, um, influential and important books of my life, so thank you.

   15. OBOliver Burkeman4:59

       Oh, I'm so glad to hear it.

   16. TNTrevor Noah5:00

       Yeah.

   17. OBOliver Burkeman5:00

       What book is that?

   18. TNTrevor Noah5:01

       Four Thousand Weeks. Changed my entire life.

   19. OBOliver Burkeman5:03

       Um, slightly blows my mind, but I'm very, very happy to hear it.

   20. TNTrevor Noah5:06

       Changed my entire life on this planet.

   21. EUEugene5:10

       Which... How and why?

   22. TNTrevor Noah5:11

       So I don't even know how I came across Four Thousand Weeks. I, I don't know if anyone recommended it. I genuinely don't know. All I know is I started reading this book, and the very beginning of the book breaks down the premise, and you'll forgive me if I butcher anything because you are the author.

   23. EUEugene5:25

       In your own voice.

   24. TNTrevor Noah5:26

       But the, uh [laughs]

   25. EUEugene5:28

       [laughs]

   26. TNTrevor Noah5:28

       The, the, the, the, the book starts to break down our existence on this planet-

   27. EUEugene5:32

       Mm-hmm

   28. TNTrevor Noah5:32

       ... and basically goes, "If you are lucky, you have 4,000 weeks to live your life."

   29. EUEugene5:37

       That's if you're lucky.

   30. TNTrevor Noah5:38

       Yeah, if you're lucky, you have the average 4,000 weeks to live your life, right?
4. 8:00 – 10:00

   The Problem With Optimizing Your Life

   1. OBOliver Burkeman8:00

      in some other ways.

   2. TNTrevor Noah8:00

      Yeah, yeah.

   3. OBOliver Burkeman8:00

      And anyway, shouldn't I be having friends and a relationship, right?

   4. TNTrevor Noah8:03

      Yep.

   5. OBOliver Burkeman8:03

      So suddenly, you're sort of, uh, all of that stuff is, is on the agenda. But I'm totally using all the books I write as kinda like my own therapy as well, right? So the reason that I was able to write this stuff is not because I found it totally trouble-free, but because it was, like, a big struggle to-

   6. TNTrevor Noah8:19

      It was the thing that was struggling.

   7. OBOliver Burkeman8:20

      Right, right. I think I spent a lot of my sort of earliest adulthood thinking one day I was gonna get the combination of productivity systems and self-discipline-

   8. TNTrevor Noah8:29

      Yeah

   9. OBOliver Burkeman8:29

      ... and daily routines that was just gonna nail everything, and then it would just be, like, set it and forget it, you know, plain sailing for the rest of life.

   10. TNTrevor Noah8:36

       That, my problem is that's what they all sell you.

   11. OBOliver Burkeman8:38

       Right.

   12. TNTrevor Noah8:38

       Every second video on YouTube is, "Here's how you optimize your life. Here's the perfect morning routine. Here's how you figure out your week. Wake up 5:00 AM, stretch, do some jumping jacks, lymphatic drainage-

   13. OBOliver Burkeman8:50

       [laughs]

   14. TNTrevor Noah8:50

       ... get outside, see the sun, make your breakfast, smoothie shake, go for..." You, it's like, it's, it's, it's so perfect, and it's so precise-

   15. OBOliver Burkeman8:58

       Mm-hmm

   16. TNTrevor Noah8:58

       ... that you constantly feel like you're failing if you aren't able to hit those beats every single time.

   17. OBOliver Burkeman9:04

       Yeah, yeah. And it, and it, the other thing it does, um, in my experience anyway, is that it, it makes you kinda live in the future the whole time, right?

   18. TNTrevor Noah9:12

       Yeah.

   19. OBOliver Burkeman9:12

       'Cause you're always just thinking, "I'm gonna get there soon."

   20. TNTrevor Noah9:14

       Yeah.

   21. OBOliver Burkeman9:14

       Right now I'm a total mess, but what I'm working on is becoming, like, a viable human being [laughs] six months, six years from now. And so the meaning of life is always, is always in the future, right? You're never-

   22. TNTrevor Noah9:25

       Oh, yeah

   23. OBOliver Burkeman9:25

       ... actually fully present in your own experience. And then, you know, having a kid was another big reminder of this stuff because that's a whole different layer of-

   24. TNTrevor Noah9:34

       Hmm

   25. OBOliver Burkeman9:34

       ... uh, lack of control over your time and limiting-

   26. TNTrevor Noah9:37

       [laughs] I like that

   27. OBOliver Burkeman9:37

       ... limits to your time and all that stuff, so-

   28. TNTrevor Noah9:39

       Of your sleep, of your money.

   29. OBOliver Burkeman9:40

       [laughs]

   30. TNTrevor Noah9:41

       Of your urgency, of your, of your control and how you can keep them healthy and alive.
5. 10:00 – 11:30

   You Can't Control Your Time

   1. TNTrevor Noah10:00

      I, I love it, and I remember the pieces. But, like, if you were to break down the ethos of Four Thousand Weeks to somebody you know. You go like, "Hey, I, I can only speak to them for one minute, and I'm trying to explain the, the philosophy behind it," how would you break it down as the author?

   2. OBOliver Burkeman10:14

      I guess I would say we have really limited time on the planet.

   3. TNTrevor Noah10:18

      Mm-hmm.

   4. OBOliver Burkeman10:18

      We have really limited control over how that time unfolds, and that's just a fact. That's not like, "I think you should live this way or that way." That's just the truth.

   5. TNTrevor Noah10:26

      Yeah.

   6. OBOliver Burkeman10:27

      And I think a lot of our problems with time, as I go through in the book, procrastination, distraction, feeling like you're doing the wrong things, life is meaningless, whatever, often come from not taking account of those limitations and trying to constantly get, like, out from under them-

   7. TNTrevor Noah10:42

      Yeah

   8. OBOliver Burkeman10:42

      ... or on top of them. And if you instead sort of fall back into them and embrace them-

   9. TNTrevor Noah10:46

      Mm-hmm

   10. OBOliver Burkeman10:46

       ... it's not only more relaxing and realistic. I think it's also more productive and fulfilling, right? I don't think this is a book about, like, doing less. I think it's a book about doing the right things and actually being more effective, I hope, and more, kind of making more of an impact on the world. So it's about embracing instead of constantly trying to outrun our human limitations, I suppose.

   11. TNTrevor Noah11:07

       Your, your book was the reason I, um, deleted social media apps regularly.

   12. OBOliver Burkeman11:13

       So you the one.

   13. TNTrevor Noah11:14

       [laughs]

   14. OBOliver Burkeman11:15

       Now my DMs don't get answered.

   15. TNTrevor Noah11:17

       Right, yeah. [laughs]

   16. OBOliver Burkeman11:17

       You, and I'm sorry they don't.

   17. TNTrevor Noah11:18

       Oh, man. You know what a-

   18. OBOliver Burkeman11:19

       You know how many nice videos I send to him? [laughs]

   19. TNTrevor Noah11:23

       [laughs]

   20. OBOliver Burkeman11:23

       And you know, I'll see them-

   21. TNTrevor Noah11:23

       What have you missed? What have you missed?

   22. OBOliver Burkeman11:24

       I'll go back in, and I'll be like, "Oh, I've got six to reply to."

   23. TNTrevor Noah11:26

       [laughs]

   24. OBOliver Burkeman11:26

       I also seem like a loser because I respond to people at, in bulk.

   25. TNTrevor Noah11:29

       Yeah.

   26. OBOliver Burkeman11:29

       So I'll be like, "Ha

6. 11:30 – 14:00

   Why Trevor Deleted Social Media

   1. OBOliver Burkeman11:30

      ha, that's crazy. Wow. Oh, no. So dope. Nice." And then I'm done.

   2. TNTrevor Noah11:35

      Then it's, "Congratulations. Oh, sorry for the divorce."

   3. OBOliver Burkeman11:37

      [laughs]

   4. TNTrevor Noah11:37

      I'm like this. All, all of this is happening.

   5. OBOliver Burkeman11:39

      No, but, but you, so you know what it was? I think it was the line in the book where you basically say, you talk about, I... So this is what I loved. It's how you frame things. Um, Oliver talks about it's not about not being on social media or not.

   6. TNTrevor Noah11:51

      Mm-hmm.

   7. OBOliver Burkeman11:51

      It's just are you doing what you sh- what you want to be doing? So if you want to scroll on social media for 12 hours, do it then.

   8. TNTrevor Noah12:00

      Mm.

   9. OBOliver Burkeman12:00

      If you want to do it-

   10. TNTrevor Noah12:01

       Mm-hmm

   11. OBOliver Burkeman12:01

       ... do it then.

   12. TNTrevor Noah12:02

       Mm-hmm.

   13. OBOliver Burkeman12:03

       But if you find yourself going, "I can't believe I spent 12 hours on my phone today"- You didn't wanna do it Ah. Do, do you know what I mean? Yes, yes. So it wasn't like a book that, like, I, I never felt judged. I never felt- Mm ... like, like the ideas in it don't judge how you're living your life. It just reminds you to actively live your life as opposed to participate in it occasionally. Right. I find that, um... Because always w- whenever I'm on social media, I'm lucky enough that the algorithm now, maybe it's not luck, maybe it's me training it- Mm-hmm ... shows me what I like. Mm-hmm. So I don't feel like me being online all the time is counterproductive. I've heard people saying they wanna switch off. Mm-hmm. But I'm like, when I'm switched off as well, sometimes I feel like I've been switched off for too long. So I'll sit at the park and I'll be like, "Yeah, I've sat here for three hours now," but I also have the same satisfaction when I'm on social media being occupied by what I want to be occupied by. Mm. Does that make any sense? Totally. I, I, I mean, I think, uh, increasingly it seems like you're in a minority if you're someone who feels like that was what you wanted to do. I- Mm ... and I'm not judging you. For me, there was always that mismatch. You can never judge me, Oliver. [laughs] I wouldn't dream of it. The things I've done. [laughs] The, the, the, i- i- I think a lot of this, and it's not just social media, right? Yeah. There's lots of other stuff. It's about, it's not about, like, don't live your life this way, live your life that way. It's more about be conscious about what's actually happening and what human life actually is, and then it's often a lot easier to make those decisions, right? Because you're sort of making them in reality instead of in this kind of weird fantasy world where you might be able to do everything. Yeah. I mean, that was always my problem. Mm. Yeah. I also, I also think it's the, um, you know what it's the, it's the, it's being o- okay with failing as well. In what way? That's probably the biggest thing that you changed in the way I see the world. Just being like, "Oh, I'm gonna fail at this for a while." I've never, I've never heard anyone sell that as a concept in, in my opinion. Just the idea of like, okay, so in your life you have your friends, your family,

7. 14:00 – 17:00

   Choosing What to Fail At

   1. OBOliver Burkeman14:00

      yourself- Mm-hmm ... your work, your, you know, your fitness, your home projects that you're working w- wha- You've got all these things, and then it'll be like, you know, get your time right. Put the pieces together. D- This is the first book that was like, yo, bro, sometimes you can choose which areas of your life to be failing in. Oh, yeah. Like, like actively choose- Where your attention goes. Mm-hmm ... that, like, I'm- Mm-hmm ... gonna fail at work for the next few months because I want, I really wanna succeed at family. Succeed at this. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. So for me it's seeing that, like, the standard of success that we hold ourselves to- Mm-hmm ... is, is like doing more things than a human can do. It's working 48 hours a day, which don't exist. It's, it's- It's- ... you know, it's, it's being able to answer as many emails as- Yeah ... the world wants to, to send you. So y- so actually any kind of boundary drawing in that situation, any place where you say, "This is my focus for this season and this is not," it's gonna feel like a failure in some way- Yeah ... because the standard of success is, like, be omnipotent. Right. Right. Um, but if you decide in advance, like you're saying, right? If you say, well, for this season, like, I don't know, maybe you're the beginning of a career or you've just had a baby or something and, like, okay, this isn't gonna be the season when my, all my home improvement projects get done because those other things are just gonna take up all the time. Well, then when you don't get around to the home improvement projects, you don't feel like a loser, right? 'Cause you made the decision in advance. Yeah. You decided that, that you were gonna turn down that dial to turn these dials up. Um, the worst thing is thinking that you're gonna do all of it, and then every single day is an experience of, like, how useless you are. [laughs] If you choose to lose. [laughs] Oliver just explained trying to fight jet lag. I'm going to the mall. [laughs] No. Yo, that feeling will kill you, bro. [laughs] Yo, that feeling will humble you quick, yeah? [laughs] Yeah. Feeling will humble you quick. Try to- I've seen people with jet lag, like, you know when they try and fight it, they'll get somewhere, and then they'll be like, "Get outside. The first thing is you gotta get outside. You gotta get moving." [laughs] "You gotta live your day as soon as pos- get some coffee in you. Get a run going." 3:00 PM. [laughs] I just, I just need to lie down. I just- [laughs] ... I just need to, like... [laughs] Oh, yeah, I just... [laughs] Jet lag, my friend. Oh, man. [laughs] Oh, man, jet lag will humble you. [laughs] So what w- Yeah. Like, what was it a- Oh, man ... like, what was it about your life that got you down this path? Because, I mean, many people are journalists, have stayed journalists. Uh- Mm ... even if people switch into becoming an author, it's like what they write about is still journalistic- Yeah ... by its very nature. It, it feels like you're in a world where it, it, it isn't, how can I put it? It's not like a fact that you're trying to research. It's an opinion that you have on the way, you know, we live our lives and the world is. Yeah. That's based around facts. Yeah. And it makes sense for many people, and then some people will be like, "I don't know if that makes sense for me." And, and, and that's fine, but, like, h- what do you think clicked in your brain that, that got you thinking like that? I guess I've always been really interested in sort of big ideas stuff. Yeah. And I think it is quite journalistic, right? 'Cause it's

8. 17:00 – 19:00

   What Oliver Gave Up to Live Differently

   1. OBOliver Burkeman17:00

      not like I'm saying I work in the tradition of Carl Jung, or I work in the tradition, or in neuroscience. It's like I'm just taking stuff from everywhere. Right. Like, very journalistically sort of like, oh, this philosopher had something that made a difference to me, and this study seems interesting, and haven't you ever noticed how this always happens on social media? So I'm just trying to sort of... So it does feel in that sense like I'm being a, a, a reporter in a way. But yeah, I'm reporting on, I guess, what it feels like to, to be in the modern world and what we can, sort of how we can reconcile ourselves to that and hopefully be happy and effective and ambitious without constantly feeling insane. Yeah. Do you think you've succeeded? [laughs] Not in any sort of final way, no. Um, but I definitely am sort of, I'm way less anxious, um, than I used to be. I'm much more sort of able to take decisions about how to use my time and not be tormented by all the emails I'm supposed to have been answering and, and all the rest of it. So yeah, I think I'm gradually sinking into reality in a, in a positive fashion. You'd have to ask my wife, really. Yeah. Well, that's what I was, like, actually gonna ask you. How many people-

   2. TNTrevor Noah18:09

      Or how many jobs or how many opportunities did you lose by changing your perspective in life?

   3. OBOliver Burkeman18:14

      Well, this is the great thing about being a finite human, right? You never know, 'cause you can't ever go back and take the other path-

   4. TNTrevor Noah18:19

      Yeah

   5. OBOliver Burkeman18:19

      ... and see what happened. So I feel like my life has been, um, really, uh, great since I started sort of living into this way of being. But what do I know? I could have been, I, I could have been 10 times as successful the other way, or 10 times more miserable.

   6. TNTrevor Noah18:35

      10 times less successful.

   7. OBOliver Burkeman18:35

      Right, right.

   8. TNTrevor Noah18:36

      Yeah, yeah.

   9. OBOliver Burkeman18:36

      And actually, that's part of the idea, right? One of the things we don't get to do as people who can only be in one place at a time and live one life out of all the million options, is see how it could have been the other, the other way. So it's like regret. It's this fascinating emotion where people think like, "Well, it would've been better if I'd done this or that." But, like, you just can't know. And when you really see that you can't know, I think that's quite

9. 19:00 – 23:00

   Why Trevor Blames the Lottery

   1. OBOliver Burkeman19:00

      liberating, 'cause it's like all you ever do in every moment is take what seems like the best decision in that moment, and then do it again-

   2. TNTrevor Noah19:06

      Hmm

   3. OBOliver Burkeman19:06

      ... and do it again, right? I mean, you're never gonna be able to get to the end of the finish line and be like, "Ah, I did the right things, 'cause this would've happened if I hadn't done..." Who knows? Nobody knows.

   4. TNTrevor Noah19:14

      I blame lotteries.

   5. EUEugene19:16

      Oh, I thought you were gonna say Spider-Man: The Multiverse.

   6. TNTrevor Noah19:18

      That too. [laughs]

   7. EUEugene19:20

      What a relief. Okay, carry on. Lotteries.

   8. TNTrevor Noah19:21

      No, I, I blame, I blame lotteries.

   9. EUEugene19:23

      [laughs]

   10. TNTrevor Noah19:23

       You know, you know why?

   11. EUEugene19:24

       Yeah.

   12. TNTrevor Noah19:24

       Because they make us feel like there was, like, a right answer, and we could have thought of it and could have got to it. I don't know how to explain this-

   13. EUEugene19:31

       Hmm

   14. TNTrevor Noah19:31

       ... but, like, I f- I feel like-

   15. EUEugene19:32

       There was. There w- there were six-

   16. TNTrevor Noah19:34

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, like I-

   17. EUEugene19:35

       ... six numbers you could have chosen

   18. TNTrevor Noah19:35

       ... I know it sounds weird. I know it sounds weird.

   19. EUEugene19:37

       And you didn't choose them.

   20. TNTrevor Noah19:38

       Yeah, yeah. But you c- you-

   21. EUEugene19:39

       You didn't choose them. They go, "We chose them."

   22. TNTrevor Noah19:42

       Yeah.

   23. EUEugene19:42

       You, on the other hand, weren't a savior.

   24. TNTrevor Noah19:43

       We'll show you the person who chose them. You didn't. This was y- this was your mistake. And then they'll be like, "Look at the numbers you did get right. Here's the num- here are the numbers you should have chosen." I almost wish the lottery didn't tell you the winning numbers. They just, like, phoned the winner and that was it.

   25. EUEugene19:57

       [laughs]

   26. TNTrevor Noah19:57

       But the rest of us, they left us guessing.

   27. EUEugene19:58

       Yeah, right. [laughs]

   28. OBOliver Burkeman19:59

       [laughs]

   29. TNTrevor Noah19:59

       They just left everybody guessing.

   30. EUEugene20:01

       [laughs]
10. 23:00 – 27:00

    The Problem With Everyone Finding “The One”

    1. TNTrevor Noah23:00

       feel like you're incorrect.

    2. EUEugene23:01

       I hate those people.

    3. TNTrevor Noah23:02

       Join the team. Because when they're on the other side-

    4. EUEugene23:06

       Hmm

    5. TNTrevor Noah23:06

       ... and asking for privacy-

    6. EUEugene23:08

       Hmm

    7. TNTrevor Noah23:08

       ... and respect while they handle their affairs as they're splitting up their, their divorce-

    8. EUEugene23:13

       [laughs]

    9. TNTrevor Noah23:14

       ... then it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

    10. EUEugene23:17

        Yeah. [laughs]

    11. OBOliver Burkeman23:17

        Yeah.

    12. TNTrevor Noah23:17

        Whoa, whoa. Now you want privacy.

    13. EUEugene23:19

        Yeah.

    14. TNTrevor Noah23:19

        Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

    15. EUEugene23:21

        [laughs]

    16. TNTrevor Noah23:21

        You were all over my timeline writing poems-

    17. EUEugene23:24

        Yeah

    18. TNTrevor Noah23:24

        ... about how when you find the one for you-

    19. EUEugene23:27

        You know

    20. TNTrevor Noah23:27

        ... you realize that there's a half of you that never existed.

    21. EUEugene23:30

        Mm-hmm.

    22. TNTrevor Noah23:30

        And in that your... And then now you want privacy. But you were very quick to basically tell me that there was a correct answer.

    23. EUEugene23:37

        Mm-hmm.

    24. OBOliver Burkeman23:37

        Mm-hmm.

    25. TNTrevor Noah23:38

        Your person.

    26. EUEugene23:38

        Yeah.

    27. TNTrevor Noah23:39

        Now in the divorce, why are you not saying that that's the correct answer? So I don't have a problem with people falling in love or saying they found the right person or... But what I'm saying is, when the world constantly feels like people are finding the answer and you are not-

    28. EUEugene23:52

        Yeah

    29. TNTrevor Noah23:52

        ... I think it can make you feel more depressed and more like a loser, like you were saying.

    30. OBOliver Burkeman23:56

        Oh, yeah. And it's also because, like, you have access to your own internal monologue of self-doubt and self-criticism. You don't have access to anybody else's-
11. 27:00 – 30:00

    Why Your To-Do List Is Impossible

    1. TNTrevor Noah27:01

       they have doubts. You'll go, "What about this?" They're like, "Oh, well, we don't know. And a- actually, sometimes I wonder. I'll be honest with you, I'm not sure."

    2. OBOliver Burkeman27:08

       Yeah.

    3. TNTrevor Noah27:09

       And, and you're like, "What? But you're the, you're the foremost expert." And you realize with expertise comes a humility and an acknowledgement that you don't really know anything, because you start knowing how much you don't know.

    4. OBOliver Burkeman27:18

       Absolutely, yeah.

    5. TNTrevor Noah27:20

       You, you get what I'm saying?

    6. OBOliver Burkeman27:20

       Mm-hmm.

    7. TNTrevor Noah27:21

       But then as, like, like, average people, we know everything.

    8. OBOliver Burkeman27:25

       [laughs] But I think it comes with growing up. Uh, uh, the older you get, the more you realize that, um, moderation and awareness go hand in hand. So you know that your time is limited, things that you can do, and your emotional capacity for things is also very limited.

    9. TNTrevor Noah27:39

       Oh.

    10. OBOliver Burkeman27:39

        But the awareness is always a helpful thing to help you realize that the, the path you didn't choose was maybe not good for you or good for you.

    11. TNTrevor Noah27:47

        Right.

    12. OBOliver Burkeman27:47

        For example, like relationships, New York will expose to you, or has exposed to me really, when in life you really need partnership.

    13. TNTrevor Noah27:55

        Mm-hmm.

    14. OBOliver Burkeman27:56

        I've seen kids being taken to school-

    15. TNTrevor Noah27:58

        Yeah

    16. OBOliver Burkeman27:58

        ... that I'm like, they need this person to take them there.

    17. TNTrevor Noah28:00

        Yeah.

    18. OBOliver Burkeman28:01

        Then you've seen people between their 20s and their 40s in relationships, but within that spectrum as well, they're in different kind of relationships.

    19. TNTrevor Noah28:07

        Yeah.

    20. OBOliver Burkeman28:07

        So the younger ones are holding hands, being more affectionate than the much older ones in their 40s and their 50s. They're more comfortable with each other.

    21. TNTrevor Noah28:14

        Mm-hmm.

    22. OBOliver Burkeman28:14

        And then you see maybe people in their 60s and 70s who either don't have a partner or have one, and their interaction with that partner is very different. So if you're 20-something trying to figure out what do you need in your life, this is the best place to look at, because you'll see different people in different stages of their lives interacting differently in relationships.

    23. TNTrevor Noah28:34

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is what I love about you. So I haven't, I haven't read this one.

    24. OBOliver Burkeman28:38

        About me?

    25. TNTrevor Noah28:38

        No. Meditations from Walkers.

    26. OBOliver Burkeman28:40

        Oh, I thought you were complimenting me. See how I doubted myself.

    27. TNTrevor Noah28:42

        No, but I love you as a person.

    28. OBOliver Burkeman28:44

        And I went, "Eh, thank you."

    29. TNTrevor Noah28:44

        You know this.

    30. OBOliver Burkeman28:44

        See how my self-esteem went back up again.
12. 30:00 – 34:00

    The Liberation of Defeat

    1. TNTrevor Noah30:00

       the liberation of defeat.

    2. OBOliver Burkeman30:02

       Right.

    3. TNTrevor Noah30:03

       W- what does that even mean? Like... Or, or rather, why would you choose that to be the starting off point to help somebody feel better about their lives?

    4. OBOliver Burkeman30:11

       I'll try to explain. I did, I did want to sort of bring people down to earth with a bump, because then you can get started, right?

    5. TNTrevor Noah30:16

       Mm.

    6. OBOliver Burkeman30:16

       If you're waiting the whole book to, like, bring them down to a bump, it's-

    7. TNTrevor Noah30:19

       Mm

    8. OBOliver Burkeman30:19

       ... I don't think it works.

    9. TNTrevor Noah30:20

       You're my kind of guy, Oliver.

    10. OBOliver Burkeman30:21

        The, [laughs] I'm glad to hear it.

    11. TNTrevor Noah30:22

        Yeah.

    12. OBOliver Burkeman30:22

        The w- the way I was... What is... The idea I'm trying to get at there is that a lot of the ways that we stress ourselves out in life- ... come from not quite taking seriously enough the problems that we have. So a really simple example that I start with there is, like, if you feel like you've got a, a, a really terrible to-do list, you've got so many things to do-

    13. TNTrevor Noah30:40

        Yeah

    14. OBOliver Burkeman30:41

        ... it's gonna take all your time and effort and discipline to get through it. It's really gonna dominate your life to get through all these things, then life becomes a real slog, right? 'Cause you're trying to get to this point where you're through the list. But if you realize that it's worse than that, because there'll actually always be too much to do, because the space of things you feel like you need to do is always gonna be bigger than your time and your abilities, so you're gonna die with a long to-do list of things you haven't finished. Well, that's a lot more liberating, 'cause then it's like-

    15. TNTrevor Noah31:10

        Mm-hmm

    16. OBOliver Burkeman31:10

        ... oh, well it can't be my job to get to the end of this to-do list. It must just be my job to do a bunch of the things on it that feel important, right?

    17. TNTrevor Noah31:19

        Yeah.

    18. OBOliver Burkeman31:19

        Because you're not... It's that feeling that you might be able to get to the point where you're on top of absolutely everything that is tormenting you.

    19. TNTrevor Noah31:26

        Mm-hmm.

    20. OBOliver Burkeman31:26

        Not the fact that you won't get there. Does that make sense?

    21. TNTrevor Noah31:29

        It makes complete sense. You, you basically... You've basically come in with... It's almost like people are running a race, like a 100 meter sprint, and they run in their, like, local municipality or town, and they're coming fourth.

    22. OBOliver Burkeman31:45

        Mm-hmm.

    23. TNTrevor Noah31:45

        And they're like, "Oh, man, I just need to get to first" And you're stepping in going, "You're the fourth slowest person, or fourth fastest person in your town, but in the world, you are rubbish"

    24. OBOliver Burkeman31:56

        [laughs]

    25. TNTrevor Noah31:56

        "You are absolutely trash, so stop stressing yourself about, like, actually getting faster because even when you get to first in your town, you're still gonna be the slowest person probably in this country.

    26. OBOliver Burkeman32:05

        Right.

    27. TNTrevor Noah32:05

        So just like-

    28. OBOliver Burkeman32:07

        Yeah.

    29. TNTrevor Noah32:07

        This is what I mean.

    30. OBOliver Burkeman32:08

        Yeah.
13. 34:00 – 42:00

    Acceptance vs. Resignation

    1. OBOliver Burkeman34:00

       is a sort of a calming down and a, and a, and an ability to see that you can carry on being super ambitious without that sense of deficit and, like, void. You don't n- you can, you can try to do loads of cool things in life as an expression of feeling good about yourself rather than because you feel bad about yourself. And so I think that those are ultimately the kind of people that I'm, that I'm writing for, people who don't feel any stress about how they use their time, don't seek out-

    2. TNTrevor Noah34:29

       [laughs]

    3. OBOliver Burkeman34:29

       This is not for you.

    4. TNTrevor Noah34:30

       Writing about it. I mean, Oliver's just like, "This is not for you"

    5. OBOliver Burkeman34:34

       [laughs]

    6. TNTrevor Noah34:35

       Yo, do you think your life is fine? This is not for you, bruh.

    7. OBOliver Burkeman34:37

       [laughs]

    8. TNTrevor Noah34:38

       That's what Oliver said. Genuinely.

    9. OBOliver Burkeman34:40

       Now, I do think that there are also, there are people who sort of feel so overwhelmed that they don't sort of give into that kind of nihilistic idea, but they just sort of can't figure out where to start. And, like, there's just so much deluging me. How can I find any... And those people, I think, I do try to address in this book, right? People who feel like despairing at how much they're burdened by stuff they have to do-

    10. TNTrevor Noah35:05

        Yeah

    11. OBOliver Burkeman35:05

        ... or feel that they need to do. That, that I think is a different thing. But people who are just like, "Why do anything? It's all pointless." Like, you don't think that. On some level, you want to build a meaningful life, right? I think.

    12. TNTrevor Noah35:16

        We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Shaved ice by the beach, a trip to the state fair, and a throwback flick at the local drive-in. They're more than just items to check off the summer bucket list. They're also opportunities to earn 2% daily cash back when you use your Apple Card with Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card now and use in minutes with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com. Do, do you think some of the way you think was shaped by the fact that you're English?

    13. OBOliver Burkeman36:09

        Huh.

    14. TNTrevor Noah36:09

        And what I mean by that is, like, I'm trying to think of how to phrase this. So I feel like if you were American, your book would be a lot more rosy.

    15. OBOliver Burkeman36:21

        [laughs]

    16. TNTrevor Noah36:23

        But being an optimistic Brit-

    17. OBOliver Burkeman36:25

        Mm-hmm

    18. TNTrevor Noah36:26

        ... means that you hope and believe in the possibility of a better future But you're also like, "It's gonna be raining tomorrow."

    19. EUEugene36:33

        [laughs]

    20. TNTrevor Noah36:34

        Do you, do you get what I'm saying?

    21. EUEugene36:35

        It definitely is.

    22. TNTrevor Noah36:36

        Yeah, that's what I mean.

    23. EUEugene36:37

        [laughs]

    24. TNTrevor Noah36:37

        It's, it's a strange... It's, it's almost like-

    25. EUEugene36:39

        Yeah

    26. TNTrevor Noah36:39

        ... you are the, you, you, you are what I would assume if someone had, like, a, like, a stereotypical joke.

    27. EUEugene36:43

        Mm-hmm.

    28. TNTrevor Noah36:44

        What is a, a British motivational speaker?

    29. EUEugene36:47

        [laughs]

    30. TNTrevor Noah36:47

        An English motivational speaker, I would be like, "Oh, it's someone who tells you you can be better, but you're probably not gonna be." You know what I'm saying?
14. 42:00 – 48:00

    Why Waiting Makes Us So Angry

    1. EUEugene42:00

       ... where they're traveling across the galaxy and there's different types of aliens that kind of live together.

    2. TNTrevor Noah42:05

       Mm-hmm.

    3. EUEugene42:06

       The mall is like that. There's different types of levels.

    4. TNTrevor Noah42:09

       [laughs]

    5. EUEugene42:09

       People who work at the body shop smell nice all the time, and they think they're better. People who work at the luggage shop know about the world, but they've never been to the world. People who work at the music store know a lot about artists and art-

    6. TNTrevor Noah42:20

       Mm

    7. EUEugene42:20

       ... but have never produced a single thing in their life. People who work at the grocery store know about...

    8. TNTrevor Noah42:24

       That's fascinating.

    9. EUEugene42:24

       So it's almost like this multiverse that exists in one building.

    10. TNTrevor Noah42:28

        Yeah. And as a shopper, you go in there to get your goods, but as the people that work there, they live in this universe. And after a while, you become scared to leave the, to leave the universe.

    11. OBOliver Burkeman42:37

        Well, the thing that that makes me think of is that, like, this idea, it's another way of talking about this stuff, I think.

    12. TNTrevor Noah42:41

        Mm-hmm.

    13. OBOliver Burkeman42:41

        That, like, we are actually always choosing. It's just that we're either choosing consciously or, or unconsciously. This is a big point, like, the existentialist philosophers-

    14. TNTrevor Noah42:49

        Mm-hmm

    15. OBOliver Burkeman42:49

        ... were, were really big on, right? This idea that, like, to not, to, to stay somewhere because you think you just have to stay there is, is a choice. Um, and once you're making it more consciously, like, maybe it is the best thing for you to do, right? That's not, that's not ruled out.

    16. TNTrevor Noah43:03

        Mm-hmm.

    17. OBOliver Burkeman43:03

        It could be that it's the, there's something empowering about knowing that it is a choice. There is a sense-

    18. TNTrevor Noah43:10

        Yeah

    19. OBOliver Burkeman43:10

        ... in which you always have a choice. Not meaning in that sort of worst version of the American ethos way that, like, it doesn't matter that you were born into poverty or-

    20. TNTrevor Noah43:20

        Right. Well-

    21. OBOliver Burkeman43:20

        ... it doesn't matter that you've got this or that-

    22. TNTrevor Noah43:22

        Right

    23. OBOliver Burkeman43:22

        ... disadvantage. But, but that within those, within those frames-

    24. TNTrevor Noah43:25

        You, you do, even with-

    25. OBOliver Burkeman43:27

        You're making choices every moment. Yeah, yeah.

    26. TNTrevor Noah43:28

        The, the, the analogy I like to use for that is I always go, think of it like a board game.

    27. OBOliver Burkeman43:32

        Mm-hmm.

    28. TNTrevor Noah43:33

        We all start at a different place-

    29. OBOliver Burkeman43:34

        Mm

    30. TNTrevor Noah43:34

        ... on the board game, but from that point onwards, you're, you're choosing. And you really are rolling a dice because-
15. 48:00 – 50:00

    Why We Hate Waiting

    1. TNTrevor Noah48:00

       [laughs]

    2. OBOliver Burkeman48:01

       Yeah, no, it's true. And anyone who works in, like, a shared office, you come to the microwave to use it, and it's always stopped at seven or eight seconds, right?

    3. TNTrevor Noah48:08

       Yeah.

    4. OBOliver Burkeman48:08

       And you gotta cancel it. 'Cause I think people really find it very difficult to surrender for the, the, the surrender of control is involved-

    5. TNTrevor Noah48:15

       Why?

    6. OBOliver Burkeman48:16

       ... in, in waiting. 'Cause on some really deep level, we want to be able to determine how our day unfolds, and we want it more now that we can do it in so many ways, so that technology allows so much of this. Um, and then we run up against these moments where you do just sort of have to You do just sort of have to wait, and it's, it's really a feeling of... I mean, the bo- the- people talk about boredom like it's a really sort of l- passive or low-grade feeling, but it can be really quite, um, aggravating, right? Yeah. To be bored. Mm. Um, and, and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that you're being asked to surrender control for a little while, to just wait for something to happen, wait for the microwave, wait for a, the traffic, the cars ahead to move. In New York, this is always striking to me, right? Everybody's honking their horns when they're caught in traffic jams, famously, for decades. Doesn't do anything, right? Nothing. It's an expression of- Nothing ... frustration. Yeah. So clearly there's something else going on there than, like, "Now I will do the most effective thing to move the car in front of me." It's just like, w- why do I have to run up against finite reality in this way and, like, push against it- [laughs] ... and it won't just do what I want it to do every- Is that British optimism again? Every moment. Run up against finite... [laughs] Yeah. You know, you know what you've just made me realize as well is the more control we get, the less comfortable we have not having it. Yeah. Hmm. It's addictive. When you would order a pizza that was gonna be delivered, when you f- when pizza delivery first sort of started, the pizza just had, would just be, the... You'd have a conversation with a person. Mm-hmm. They would tell you the pizza's on its way. Mm-hmm. And then the pizza was on its way. Yeah. Then they started saying, "We deliver within..." Yes. They give you a time. Oh. Then you're like, okay, now you're looking at the

16. 50:00 – 54:00

    Technology Gave Us Too Much Control

    1. OBOliver Burkeman50:00

       time. Yes. Then you complain. Then they gave you a map to track it on a phone. Hmm. And now you sit- Yeah ... there watching this person, and then you're like, "What is, what is, what's hap- what's happen- what's, what, what's going on here? Why? Why are they... " You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, you've become, even though they, they keep giving you more- Now they could use priority as well ... and more and more control. When they say, "Pay more and you'll be first on the list." Ah, that's even... You know the worst one that's gotten me now? Is on the app. Mm. It'll say your food has been delivered. [laughs] And then I'm like, "But where is it?" [laughs] And then you find, like, the person, like, just got there, so they've registered- Ah ... that they've just arrived. Yeah. But that delay, in that moment in time- Feels frustrating ... I'm more panicked- Yeah ... than I was for the 30 minutes prior. I have a cheeky question I'd like to ask actually, which is another place where this happens famously, is, like, when people get kinda like high profile and- Then you should be asking me ... celebrity-ish, right? What are you doing on- Ask, I'll ask you both. [laughs] But, like, this is kinda like a famous phenomenon where you move ever more into a world where things are provided for you and you don't have to think about them 'cause you have a team, 'cause all that thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, like, f- very famously, right, you have certain people just engaging in, like, meltdowns because of the- Or they become assholes. Right. They become full on- Mm-hmm. I've, I've... Yeah, but I've seen people like that. I've seen, I think it's more prevalent with, like, musicians. Right. But I've seen, like, a few, like, A-list actors who are so sheltered from reality that they don't know that anything comes with any time or opportunity cost. They, they are not familiar with that concept at all. Explain. So food is just available all the time. Okay. And, and, and- And what they want ... yeah. And then, like- Not just food ... and clothing- Right, okay ... clothing is at their hotel. You know those people who haven't been to a clothing store in decades? They, they don't even think of that as a concept. The clothing is just in their closets, and then they wear it or they don't wear it, and then there's more clothing and they wear it or they don't wear it. Um, w- when they travel, the vehicles are just there that pick them up that take them to a plane that just flies them somewhere. They, they don't think of the waiting in between. Mm. Someone takes their luggage. Mm-hmm. Someone sometimes flies ahead of them with their luggage to leave the luggage and put the clothes in their hotel room, and then when they get there, the clothes are just there. And so, so you, you remove so much of the time and opportunity cost that you are completely shattered by it when it comes into your world. [laughs] Right. You know what? I- I've just... Oliver, I'm sorry, I can't be part of this anymore. [laughs] I don- I feel like I know someone who's not using their high profile status enough. [laughs] I feel like some of it is wasted on other people. Won't mention names. Hi, Trevor. [laughs] No one flies ahead of him. No one packs his wardrobe. I've, I've always thought of doing that, I won't lie. It just, but it seems ridiculous. There's a- It's time for a week ... there's a service you can pay that actually, uh, that you pay in New York. They do that. They will pack your, your luggage. They pack your clothes. They'll fly your luggage to the country you're going to on vacation, and then they'll hang all your clothes, steam them, put everything up in the hotel. Oliver, you and I, my man. So when you get there, everything's just ready. And then when you check out, you just leave and then they'll come to the hotel, take the clothes, put them back in a bag, and then ship them back to you. But I, uh, my brain, I, I don't know why I haven't, I haven't... [sighs] Tell me more. I'm here for you. [laughs] Because if those services are transferable to friends and family- [laughs] I mean, Oliver and I won't say no. Yeah, but you're paying for all of these things. No, don't. Relax. Go ahead. Tell us. But you're saying transferable like it's not a... Here, here, here's- Because what'll happen- Here's what my issue is. Yes. I always believe- Mm ... that you should not become comfortable with things that may not be permanent. Life is such. No, no, but what I, because what I mean is, like, if you are unable to accept it when it, like, shifts the other way- No, I'll, I'll accept it. You think you can go backwards? Yeah. Nah, bro, let me tell you something. You'll go crazy. You know something about me that you think Oliver should know.

17. 54:00 – 58:00

    Why Everything Becomes the New Normal

    1. OBOliver Burkeman54:00

       Let me tell you something, my friend. You'll go crazy. There, the... I don't care who you are in life, there's gonna be one thing you get to that you can't let go of. Okay. Maybe, right. Uh, Warren Buffett was, like, famous for that. He's like simple dude, has like a, a McDonald's burger and a Coke- Mm-hmm ... like every day of his life. Lives the same life. And he lives in the same house and he drives the same Honda and all these things, but try and take his private jet. Oh, boy, oh boy. [laughs] That old man will, yo. And he- Warren Buffett- Right ... everyone's like, "He's such a simple guy, and he..." Yes. [laughs] With a private jet. But go look at what he has said about his private jet. [laughs] He's like, "I don't need to change anything in my life." And you know, you, private jet. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

    2. TNTrevor Noah54:41

       Yo.

    3. OBOliver Burkeman54:41

       [laughs]

    4. TNTrevor Noah54:42

       He, he has said it himself.

    5. OBOliver Burkeman54:44

       Yeah. Right.

    6. TNTrevor Noah54:44

       He's like, "I can't go back."

    7. OBOliver Burkeman54:45

       No way.

    8. TNTrevor Noah54:46

       Yeah. He's like, "This is the only thing in my life that I, I can't, I can't ... I, I ... All this other stuff, the car, the house, the ... I can live as simply as you want. I, I don't care about any of it. But the private jet, please. Please, please, please, please, please, let's just keep that."

    9. OBOliver Burkeman55:01

       Hmm. And this is ... I mean, this is a phenomenon you see at every level of, of income, right? It's called hedonic adaptation, I think.

    10. TNTrevor Noah55:07

        Uh-huh.

    11. OBOliver Burkeman55:07

        Right? And, and anyone who is at any level except, like, really serious poverty, as soon as you have the ability to, you know, buy a certain brand of coffee-

    12. TNTrevor Noah55:18

        Uh-huh

    13. OBOliver Burkeman55:18

        ... or, like, anything, it doesn't need to be pri- private jets or with a million miles of private jets, takes a few weeks and then that feels like it's gone from being a, a, a perk to being a, the minimum baseline of-

    14. TNTrevor Noah55:30

        It's a new baseline.

    15. OBOliver Burkeman55:31

        Right, right, right.

    16. TNTrevor Noah55:31

        I feel like Oliver is sub-tweeting me. Yes.

    17. OBOliver Burkeman55:33

        [laughs]

    18. TNTrevor Noah55:33

        It's a new baseline. Mr. Heirloom Tomatoes.

    19. OBOliver Burkeman55:35

        [laughs]

    20. TNTrevor Noah55:35

        Heirloom tomatoes and ma- I've ... Oliver, I've become-

    21. OBOliver Burkeman55:38

        Now look, you've gone and bought some tomatoes

    22. TNTrevor Noah55:39

        ... I've become a matcha connoisseur.

    23. OBOliver Burkeman55:40

        Listen to this guy. Matcha.

    24. TNTrevor Noah55:42

        I have, I have spat out matchas.

    25. OBOliver Burkeman55:43

        Mm-hmm.

    26. TNTrevor Noah55:44

        Right outside the shop.

    27. OBOliver Burkeman55:45

        [laughs] 'Cause they weren't perfect.

    28. TNTrevor Noah55:47

        Because they were not.

    29. OBOliver Burkeman55:48

        Yeah, yeah.

    30. TNTrevor Noah55:49

        I [laughs] ... First time I had a matcha, I was like, "This is nice."
18. 58:00 – 1:03:00

    How to Choose What Actually Matters

    1. TNTrevor Noah58:00

       anytime. This is the ... Before I forget, this is the, this is the chapter that I wanted-

    2. OBOliver Burkeman58:10

       [laughs]

    3. TNTrevor Noah58:10

       ... uh, to chat to you about.

    4. OBOliver Burkeman58:11

       Mm-hmm.

    5. TNTrevor Noah58:12

       Uh, becoming a better procrastinator. That l- that, like, it ... Just, like-

    6. OBOliver Burkeman58:17

       Sounds like an oxymoron.

    7. TNTrevor Noah58:18

       Yeah, exactly. Just like the idea behind this blew my mind.

    8. OBOliver Burkeman58:21

       Mm-hmm.

    9. TNTrevor Noah58:23

       But help us understand what you mean by become a ... Because everyone goes, "Procrastination is the worst thing," right?

    10. OBOliver Burkeman58:28

        Mm-hmm.

    11. TNTrevor Noah58:28

        Putting or, or rather delaying what you should be doing-

    12. OBOliver Burkeman58:32

        Yeah

    13. TNTrevor Noah58:33

        ... it cripples most people out there. The I should have done, I haven't done, I haven't done ... But, but you say become a better procrastinator. What do you mean by that?

    14. OBOliver Burkeman58:39

        I guess what I mean is the sort of ... I, I talk about good procrastination and bad procrastination. So, um, there is a bad kind, right? And that is wanting to do everything so perfectly that you, that you sort of never get started.

    15. TNTrevor Noah58:52

        Hmm.

    16. OBOliver Burkeman58:52

        'Cause if you want to really feel in control of a project-

    17. TNTrevor Noah58:55

        Yeah

    18. OBOliver Burkeman58:55

        ... the number one best way to feel in control is just never to do anything.

    19. TNTrevor Noah58:58

        Is not to start. [laughs]

    20. OBOliver Burkeman58:58

        Right? Yeah.

    21. TNTrevor Noah58:59

        Yeah.

    22. OBOliver Burkeman58:59

        'Cause then you're like, you can think ... And we all know people like this, right? They've got their dream, the band they're gonna start, the novel they're gonna write. And they love the dream, so they never take action, 'cause then the dream would come into contact with reality and it would be-

    23. TNTrevor Noah59:11

        Yeah, yeah

    24. OBOliver Burkeman59:11

        ... painful. Um, and it is painful, right? If you do anything creative or pretty much anything, you're always going through that process of like, [sighs] "This is good enough, but it wasn't what I thought it could be at the beginning."

    25. TNTrevor Noah59:22

        Hmm.

    26. OBOliver Burkeman59:22

        Um, but then I think good procrastination is really just the acceptance of that truth. That, like, given that we are finite, given that we have 24 hours in a day and have to be asleep for a chunk of them, you're almost always going to be not taking action on almost everything, right?

    27. TNTrevor Noah59:37

        Right.

    28. OBOliver Burkeman59:37

        Especially on almost everything you care about. Um, you make a list of the things you really care about in life. Uh, in the next hour, you're gonna do one, maybe two of them, and all the others are not gonna get done. So making progress and staying sane and being focused in that context, I think is, is, is not about finding a way of, of that not being the case-

    29. TNTrevor Noah59:59

        Yeah, yeah

    30. OBOliver Burkeman59:59

        ... 'cause that's, that's life.
19. 1:03:00 – 1:07:00

    A Simple Productivity System That Actually Works

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:03:00

       similar to what you're saying with the list, but y- you talk about, like, sort of limiting how many things you can be doing at, at a, any particular time, right?

    2. OBOliver Burkeman1:03:09

       Yeah. Yeah, right. So there's a c- I don't know, there's a couple of bits in the book that you might be thinking of, but, but I think there's a really good... Like, one really simple, if you want, like, a productivity hack, if anyone does, right? I think one really simple approach is to keep two lists, right?

    3. TNTrevor Noah1:03:23

       Oh.

    4. OBOliver Burkeman1:03:23

       To make one list that is open-ended, could have all the things you wanna do that are on your plate that you feel you should do, admin, whatever, could be hundreds of items long.

    5. TNTrevor Noah1:03:31

       Yeah.

    6. OBOliver Burkeman1:03:31

       And then another list that has maybe some fixed number of slots on it, right?

    7. TNTrevor Noah1:03:34

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    8. OBOliver Burkeman1:03:35

       Five, 10 slots.

    9. TNTrevor Noah1:03:35

       I like this idea a lot. Yeah. Hmm.

    10. OBOliver Burkeman1:03:37

        And the practice here, this is a very simple way. There are lots of other more complicated ways of doing this, but you just take 10 things from the big list, move them through, and you start, and you, and you don't let anything else come on from the big list to the short list until you've freed up a slot by-

    11. TNTrevor Noah1:03:50

        Yeah

    12. OBOliver Burkeman1:03:50

        ... by doing it.

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:03:51

        Oh, no.

    14. OBOliver Burkeman1:03:51

        So you're sort of creating a deliberate bottleneck. You're not really creating a bottleneck, you're acknowledging that you as a human being are a bottleneck. [laughs]

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:03:59

        Oh, yeah. [laughs]

    16. EUEugene1:03:59

        [laughs]

    17. OBOliver Burkeman1:04:00

        You actually only ever can do a certain-

    18. EUEugene1:04:01

        Yes, Steve Oliver

    19. OBOliver Burkeman1:04:02

        ... number of, of things at one time. Thank you.

    20. TNTrevor Noah1:04:03

        It's, it's, it's been my favorite thing-

    21. EUEugene1:04:04

        That's so-

    22. TNTrevor Noah1:04:05

        Yeah, that, that also-

    23. EUEugene1:04:06

        So I only m- remove one from the 10 when a space opens up from that five?

    24. OBOliver Burkeman1:04:11

        Wait, no. Say you have five. Uh, say you have an-

    25. EUEugene1:04:13

        Yeah

    26. OBOliver Burkeman1:04:14

        ... do you have an infinite-

    27. EUEugene1:04:14

        Infinite

    28. OBOliver Burkeman1:04:14

        ... open list, open list?

    29. EUEugene1:04:15

        Yeah.

    30. OBOliver Burkeman1:04:15

        And then say I have five.
20. 1:07:00 – 1:09:00

    What Oliver Learned to Let Go Of

    1. OBOliver Burkeman1:07:00

       quite the answer that you're looking for, I think is, is just the worry, right? Like, spending actual large amounts of time just stressing and fretting and feeling anxious, which is its own- That's a lot ... use of time. That's probably the, the major- I mean, right ... the most important thing. It's not a, it's not an activity that anyone would choose to do, I suppose- Yeah ... is what I mean. But, um, so there, so there is that. And then I think I've probably been more conscious, and again, this parenting will do this to you as well, I've been a bit more conscious about friendships and social life, right? Because it really matters to me to have good friends and to nurture- Yeah ... those friendships. But there's always that layer of social life where, like, nobody involved is particularly super wanting to do it, but you're all sort of going along with it. And so- Pickleball. [laughs] Well, if you like pickleball, you like pickleball. Oh, that's funny. But you know what I mean? There's, there's that kind of, there's that kind of- The way you just phrased it, everyone's going along with it, but no one really... Those friend groups are the worst. [laughs] Because it's like y- you, you just keep meeting for, like, quarterly reports. Yes. [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And a holiday here and there comes through. Exactly. And you miss out on enough to not really- Yeah ... care so much, but you still have the... Yeah. No, absolutely. And, you know, uh, not, not to diss the serial killer documentaries, but there is a certain kind of, I do find there's a certain kind of content consumption that pretty quickly falls out when you think about this in these ways. Not- Hmm ... never going on social media, not never vegging out with some, like, fun thing on TV. Absolutely not. But you're doing it a little bit more, uh, consciously- Yeah ... than you, than you were. And, and you're not sort of watching stuff that on some level, even when you're watching it, you know you don't wanna be watching. So I, I know this may sound crazy, but how this changed my consumption, I started making a decision, like making decisions to watch a movie that I wanted to watch that I've already watched, versus just watching a new movie that's come out just because it's a new movie that's come out. And I know that seems like a stupid thing to say, but, like- Mm ... for a long time I would consume going, "Oh, there's a new thing I should watch it. Oh, there's another thing I should watch." But the only reason I consumed it was because I, there was, it was the only new thing that was

21. 1:09:00 – 1:12:00

    Why We Keep Consuming Things We Don't Want

    1. OBOliver Burkeman1:09:00

       available. Like the time you made us watch Mortal Kombat. Uh-uh, that was for fun. [laughs] That was fun, wasn't it? That was, that was one of the fun ones. [laughs] That was w- that was me saying- Where was fun there? Where was the fun there? My man, when we were talking about how bad the background was. Oh, yeah, that was fun. Come on. Yeah. No. Okay. Okay. Okay. Like, come on. Okay. Everything in that... So what I'll do is I, I will, when I have my friends gathered, I enjoy making them watch terrible things- [laughs] ... and then complaining about it with them. Yeah. But we, or I go, "Have you seen this movie?" Then they go, "No." And I go, "It's the worst movie I've ever seen." [laughs] And then I go, "Put it on." I love it. And then we put it on together. Yeah. Yeah. And then they go, "Why are we watching this?" Then I go, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. The worst part hasn't come yet." [laughs] And then we watch the movie together. Oh, man. And I think the shared pain- Yeah. [laughs] ... brings us closer together as friends. I can well imagine it. I can well imagine it. Because they keep saying, "Why are we still watching this?" And I go, "No, no, no, no. It's gonna get worse. It's gonna get worse." [laughs] "How did they make this movie? It's gonna get worse." And then they go home, Oliver, and then they scratch me off their lists. Yeah. [laughs] They go, "I need to move him off my lists." They've made a conscious decision- [laughs] ... about their friendship. And you make a, you know, you make a good point about new movies as well, right? There's a strong pressure to see new stuff because of all the advertising and because of that sort of... This applies to everything else. The rest of the world will try to make your choices for you. Mm-hmm. And that's gonna happen anyway. So all we're talking about here is, like, having enough pushback to keep focusing on some of the things you wanna do, right? In any day, loads of other people's agendas are gonna have some role to play in it. Yeah, yeah. That's okay. It's, uh, you're not gonna get rid of that. It's just that you're gonna have, you're gonna be going into it with, with some sense of direction about what, what you care about. And I think that's, uh, an important kind of thing. You're making me realize that we, we left, society has left the word peer pressure in our teens. Hmm. But we- It's persistent ... it's persistent. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That throughout our lives, the food we eat, the content we consume. Have you watched Odyssey? No, not yet. Taha, you're missing out, bruh. See, I just did it to you now. No, I- [laughs] You know, after Mortal Kombat. [laughs] Who knows? No, but, no, but what you're saying, honestly- Yeah ... like, I joke, but- Yeah ... carry on, because what you're saying is really profound. It's true. No, absolutely. So we as adults, we don't think about, you made me aware of this, the food that we eat and when we eat it and why we eat it. Right. It's also just peer pressure. The adverts look good, the packaging looks nice. Yeah. The cars that we aspire to have. I'm now watching how the, a 10-year-old 911 Porsche is actually better than a 2026. Those cars are coming up in the market now. People are going, "It's actually not so bad. It was actually great." But when it was there at the time, it was not the thing. Mm-hmm. But now in hindsight- That's interesting ... the peer pressure has driven up, but also the appreciation for that has driven up the prices for those cars, because that's peer pressure. Right. If someone that you look up to says, "This thing is great"- They have it. Yeah, it's the thing ... they have it. It's the thing. Now those cars are hard to find in the market. Yeah. But if you look at the market from two years ago, and even a year ago during COVID as well, those cars were dirt cheap. But now because of peer pressure,

22. 1:12:00 – 1:14:00

    The “GLP-1 for Life”

    1. OBOliver Burkeman1:12:00

       and it's so subliminal now- Yeah, yeah ... and hidden in so many things and comes in so many packages. Yeah. It's not that kid at school who's smoking and says, "Do you want a puff?" It's the cool guy that goes, "Do you wanna invest your... Do you wanna be wealthy when you retire? Do you wanna invest your money here?" Huh. "Maybe buy this thing. Have you ever thought about paintings? Maybe have a six-pack. Maybe have you-" Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. "... seasonal tickets to this thing. Yeah. You never have to worry about it again." And again, it's not that you're gonna become perfectly free of all that, right? Mm-hmm. You're not gonna be the perfectly independent human. That doesn't exist. But if you have some conscious- Mm-hmm ... sense of what your main projects are at the moment, what your focus areas are, what you're willing to fail at at the moment, that's like a filter that you can, you can bring to, to the world of all the things that you're being pressured to- But I'd even argue that we need a, we need... What, what you're trying to provide here is a, uh, a m- a mental and a life GLP-1 to block- [laughs] ... to block those desires. Oh, I like that. I like that. Yeah, I'll, I'll settle for that. [laughs] I actually like that a lot

    2. TNTrevor Noah1:12:56

       Yeah, yeah, figuring out, like, how to boost your, what is it? Sa- satia- satia-

    3. OBOliver Burkeman1:13:01

       Satiation

    4. TNTrevor Noah1:13:02

       ... satiation.

    5. OBOliver Burkeman1:13:02

       Sation.

    6. TNTrevor Noah1:13:03

       How do you say it?

    7. OBOliver Burkeman1:13:04

       I'm not sure. Sat- s- does it end in E- I- I- T- Y or-

    8. TNTrevor Noah1:13:07

       Yes

    9. OBOliver Burkeman1:13:08

       ... or s- satiety.

    10. TNTrevor Noah1:13:09

        Satiety.

    11. OBOliver Burkeman1:13:10

        Something like that.

    12. TNTrevor Noah1:13:11

        Yeah. I've never heard that word said out loud.

    13. OBOliver Burkeman1:13:13

        No.

    14. TNTrevor Noah1:13:13

        I always read it.

    15. OBOliver Burkeman1:13:14

        [laughs]

    16. TNTrevor Noah1:13:15

        [laughs]

    17. OBOliver Burkeman1:13:16

        Has anyone ever said it, actually? Yeah.

    18. TNTrevor Noah1:13:17

        I've never heard anyone say it out loud, actually.

    19. OBOliver Burkeman1:13:19

        Yeah, because the list, Oliver's list makes sense.

    20. TNTrevor Noah1:13:20

        Yeah, it's completely that.

    21. OBOliver Burkeman1:13:22

        I'm satiate with these five.

    22. TNTrevor Noah1:13:23

        Yes. And what you're doing is-

    23. OBOliver Burkeman1:13:24

        Things will come

    24. TNTrevor Noah1:13:24

        ... and you're limiting how quickly your, your, your stomach empties out.

    25. OBOliver Burkeman1:13:28

        Right.

    26. TNTrevor Noah1:13:29

        You're not like... It's, it's exactly that. You have invented the GLP-1 for... That's what you're providing people, the GLP-1 for life.

    27. OBOliver Burkeman1:13:36

        I love it, and I love the analogy. It had not, it had not occurred to me, so, um, that's brilliant. Yeah.

    28. TNTrevor Noah1:13:40

        You know what had also not occurred to me was when Mortal Kombat started. [laughs]

    29. OBOliver Burkeman1:13:45

        [laughs]

    30. TNTrevor Noah1:13:46

        My, my Swiss German side of me friend came out.
23. 1:14:00 – 1:16:00

    What 4,000 Weeks Really Changed

    1. OBOliver Burkeman1:14:00

       are not memorable at all.

    2. TNTrevor Noah1:14:01

       Mm.

    3. OBOliver Burkeman1:14:01

       They, they have to be like, I mean, we're talking, like, peak-

    4. TNTrevor Noah1:14:05

       Gladiator

    5. OBOliver Burkeman1:14:05

       ... you know, Gladiator-

    6. TNTrevor Noah1:14:07

       Volume one

    7. OBOliver Burkeman1:14:07

       ... Dark Knight. Like, it's gotta be, like, an extremely special film for everyone to remember it. Make your friends watch a terrible film with you.

    8. TNTrevor Noah1:14:16

       Right.

    9. OBOliver Burkeman1:14:16

       That moment will stick in your memory forever. [laughs]

    10. TNTrevor Noah1:14:19

        It also bonds you, right?

    11. OBOliver Burkeman1:14:20

        It does.

    12. TNTrevor Noah1:14:21

        It's like you're prisoners together, and you-

    13. OBOliver Burkeman1:14:22

        We've both suffered. The only difference is I was the prisoner-

    14. TNTrevor Noah1:14:24

        You're making trench art

    15. OBOliver Burkeman1:14:24

        ... and the warden.

    16. TNTrevor Noah1:14:25

        [laughs]

    17. OBOliver Burkeman1:14:26

        I invited you in, locked the door, and then we spent 20 years with me also complaining with you, being like, "Man, when are we getting out? When are we getting out of here, man?"

    18. TNTrevor Noah1:14:35

        [laughs]

    19. OBOliver Burkeman1:14:36

        "They're treating us like animals."

    20. TNTrevor Noah1:14:38

        [laughs]

    21. OBOliver Burkeman1:14:38

        And then after 20 years, I was like, "All right, this has been fun. All right, man, let's go do something else." [laughs]

    22. TNTrevor Noah1:14:46

        [laughs] Oh, man. But yo, Oliver, thank you. I just wanted to say thank you, man. Thank you for writing the books. Uh, thank you for thinking the way you do. Uh, and thank... You, you genuinely changed my life. I hope, I, I don't mean that-

    23. OBOliver Burkeman1:14:56

        Thank you so much. No, that's lovely to hear

    24. TNTrevor Noah1:14:57

        ... I genuinely don't say that as a platitude.

    25. OBOliver Burkeman1:14:59

        It's, um... No, it's really lovely to hear. I'm, uh, like I say, I find it a little hard to... Like, it always amazes me that anything I'm working through in this form helps other people, but it's, but it's really fantastic to hear.

    26. TNTrevor Noah1:15:10

        Ch- completely-

    27. OBOliver Burkeman1:15:10

        Yeah

    28. TNTrevor Noah1:15:10

        ... completely changed my life. Like-

    29. OBOliver Burkeman1:15:13

        I can't wait to get started now

    30. TNTrevor Noah1:15:14

        ... it's, it's the reason I'd tell anyone to read the book is because for me, Four Thousand Weeks, here's the best way to put it. It didn't make me more efficient. It didn't make me more productive.
24. 1:16:00 – 1:21:50

    What’s Next for Oliver

    1. TNTrevor Noah1:16:00

       someone goes, "Why aren't you doing that?" "Uh, just because I, I don't want to, and I don't want to have the capacity."

    2. OBOliver Burkeman1:16:04

       Mm-hmm.

    3. TNTrevor Noah1:16:04

       "Oh, but you could." It's like, yeah, you could. You could do a little bit of everything. But choosing the things that you want to do a lot more of completely frees up your life in a different way. So thank you, man.

    4. OBOliver Burkeman1:16:14

       Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

    5. TNTrevor Noah1:16:15

       Thank you for... I'm s- uh, what are you, what are you gonna work on next? What's the next book?

    6. OBOliver Burkeman1:16:17

       Uh, I'm working on another book. Yeah. I'm, I'm trying to write a book that is about sort of staying sane and functional and getting stuff done in specifically the kind of crazy-making times that we're, that we're living in at the moment. And I'm sort of-

    7. TNTrevor Noah1:16:32

       Like how to not be paralyzed.

    8. OBOliver Burkeman1:16:33

       Yeah. And I'm sort of tracking this idea of aliveness, which is the working title for the book.

    9. TNTrevor Noah1:16:37

       Mm.

    10. OBOliver Burkeman1:16:37

        Right? This idea of, this idea that that's the thing we need. It's the thing that is threatened by so much of the world in which we live, and that really kind of building your life around aliveness is, in some ways, I feel like it's the, the question that is not answered by, by, by these books, right? Which is like, well, okay, you take a saner attitude to not trying to do everything.

    11. TNTrevor Noah1:16:57

        Right.

    12. OBOliver Burkeman1:16:57

        Well, what direction do you go in then, right? So-

    13. TNTrevor Noah1:17:00

        Oh, I like that

    14. OBOliver Burkeman1:17:01

        ... and for me, that's been a really sort of important piece of the puzzle. Yeah.

    15. TNTrevor Noah1:17:05

        It, it's almost like once the human has freed themselves from the constraints that they've sort of, like, you know, succumbed to in society, what does that human now do? We talked about this the other day-

    16. OBOliver Burkeman1:17:18

        Yeah

    17. TNTrevor Noah1:17:18

        ... in a, in a little, in a small way. We, we talked about, like, an addiction.

    18. OBOliver Burkeman1:17:22

        Mm-hmm.

    19. TNTrevor Noah1:17:22

        And we were saying people take for granted that one of the things an addiction will give you in life-

    20. OBOliver Burkeman1:17:27

        Mm

    21. TNTrevor Noah1:17:27

        ... is something to do.

    22. OBOliver Burkeman1:17:28

        Is purpose. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    23. TNTrevor Noah1:17:29

        And purpose.

    24. OBOliver Burkeman1:17:30

        Mm-hmm.

    25. TNTrevor Noah1:17:30

        And when you remove the dic- the addiction, sometimes what we don't do is then in, like, find a way for people to have-

    26. OBOliver Burkeman1:17:37

        To replace it. Yeah

    27. TNTrevor Noah1:17:38

        ... the replacement-

    28. OBOliver Burkeman1:17:39

        Right

    29. TNTrevor Noah1:17:39

        ... that's not, is not addict- But it's like your time and your purpose were filled up by something.

    30. OBOliver Burkeman1:17:42

        Right. And I think that especially today, I mean, this is the dif-

Episode duration: 1:21:51