What Pets Actually Want & Need | Dr. Karolina Westlund

What Pets Actually Want & Need | Dr. Karolina Westlund

Huberman LabApr 28, 20252h 5m

Andrew Huberman (host), Karolina Westlund (guest)

Ethology and species-typical behavior in pets (dogs, cats, horses, parrots)Dog breed differences via the predatory/hunting sequenceAnimal emotions, core affect, arousal, and safety (polyvagal, attachment)Human misconceptions about dominance, leadership, and trainingReading animal communication: tail wags, facial expressions, scent, playCat-specific needs: solitary hunting, socialization, litter, scent markingDomestication, welfare in captivity (zoos, cities), and neutering choices

In this episode of Huberman Lab, featuring Andrew Huberman and Karolina Westlund, What Pets Actually Want & Need | Dr. Karolina Westlund explores science-Based Secrets to Truly Understand What Your Pets Need Most Andrew Huberman interviews animal ethologist Dr. Karolina Westlund about what dogs, cats, horses, and other animals actually need for mental and physical wellbeing, based on ethology and neuroscience rather than popular myth. They examine how species evolved to live in the wild, then map those needs onto modern homes, cities, and farms to reveal common welfare mistakes. Dr. Westlund explains how predatory and social behavior sequences were selectively bred into different dog types, how cats’ solitary-hunter origins shape their needs, and why horses often have some of the worst captive lives. They also cover emotion models, attachment, dominance misunderstandings, training, and how to design daily routines that satisfy animals’ drives while improving human–animal relationships.

Science-Based Secrets to Truly Understand What Your Pets Need Most

Andrew Huberman interviews animal ethologist Dr. Karolina Westlund about what dogs, cats, horses, and other animals actually need for mental and physical wellbeing, based on ethology and neuroscience rather than popular myth. They examine how species evolved to live in the wild, then map those needs onto modern homes, cities, and farms to reveal common welfare mistakes. Dr. Westlund explains how predatory and social behavior sequences were selectively bred into different dog types, how cats’ solitary-hunter origins shape their needs, and why horses often have some of the worst captive lives. They also cover emotion models, attachment, dominance misunderstandings, training, and how to design daily routines that satisfy animals’ drives while improving human–animal relationships.

Key Takeaways

Design Your Dog’s Life Around Its Predatory Sequence Niche

Modern dog breeds were sculpted by selectively amplifying specific steps in the wolf hunting sequence: orient/sniff → eye/stalk → chase → grab/retrieve → kill → dissect → eat. ...

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Aim for ‘Calm and Safe’: Low-Arousal, Positive-Emotion States

Dr. ...

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Use Consent-Based, Slow Touch Instead of Human-Style Hugging

Humans are primates and tend to hug and pat quickly, especially on the top of the head—many non-primates experience that as restraint or threat, not affection. ...

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Rethink Dominance: Priority of Resources, Not Owner–Dog Power Struggles

In ethology, dominance simply means priority of access to scarce resources within stable groups, not ‘being the boss’ or just walking in front. ...

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Respect Species Differences: Cats Are Solitary Hunters, Not Small Dogs

House cats evolved as solitary hunters that form loose aggregations, not tight, cooperative packs. ...

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Harness Scent and Sniffing: ‘Pee Mail’ and Nose Work Are Psychological Needs

Dogs extract enormous amounts of social and emotional information from scent: sex, reproductive state, individual identity, and likely emotional state. ...

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Prioritize Secure Attachment and Developmentally Appropriate Rearing

Early separation from mothers and littermates (e. ...

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Notable Quotes

We systematically, intentionally bred for specific pieces of the wolf hunting sequence in different dog breeds. To give dogs a good life, we should understand which piece we bred them for.

Dr. Karolina Westlund

In our fear of anthropomorphism, we’ve fallen into anthropodenial—pretending animals have nothing in common with us, when in fact we share a lot.

Dr. Karolina Westlund

I would not label most of what people call ‘dominance’ between humans and dogs as dominance at all. As an ethologist, dominance is simply priority of access to resources.

Dr. Karolina Westlund

Dogs don’t imprint on humans the way goslings imprint on Konrad Lorenz—they form attachment bonds that can be secure or insecure, just like human infants.

Dr. Karolina Westlund

If you don’t let animals show the behaviors they evolved to perform—like foraging or hunting—they will redirect that energy into problem behaviors instead.

Dr. Karolina Westlund

Questions Answered in This Episode

For a mixed-breed dog where lineage is unclear, what concrete steps would you recommend to identify which part of the predatory sequence it’s most driven by, and how should owners adjust exercise and enrichment once they know?

Andrew Huberman interviews animal ethologist Dr. ...

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If you could redesign the average urban dog’s daily routine to minimize chronic stress from constant strangers, noise, and constrained movement, what would an ideal 24 hours realistically look like for a city dog?

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Given the evidence that early weaning and certain neutering practices can increase fear and reactivity, should veterinary and shelter policies be revised, and how would you balance that against the urgent need to control overpopulation?

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You mentioned that secure attachment might reduce the need for hyper-structured socialization checklists in puppies; what are the clearest, observable signs an owner can look for that indicate their dog has (or lacks) secure attachment to them?

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In cats, how would you systematically troubleshoot a household where multiple cats are urine-marking indoors: what sequence of environmental changes, behavior observations, and veterinary checks would you go through before considering rehoming or medication?

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Transcript Preview

Andrew Huberman

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Carolina Westlund. Dr. Carolina Westlund is an animal ethologist and expert in animal behavior. Dr. Westlund and I discuss the relationship between humans and domesticated animals, with a focus on the evidence-based protocols for optimizing the mental and physical health of our pets. Dr. Westlund explains the best way to interact with our animals. Now, we may assume that the way we pet our animals and exercise them and feed them makes them truly happy, but as she points out, many of the things that people assume turn out to be false when it comes to our pets and their fundamental drives. She teaches us the very basic but powerful things that we can do to satisfy those drives, both for the animals' sake, of course, and to better our relationship with them. We also discuss the unique neurological and physiological requirements of different dog breeds. It's a fascinating conversation that stems from their lineage from wolves and will tell you whether or not your particular breed, even if it's a mutt, should be exercised in a particular way, whether or not it needs additional forms of stimulation that you're not currently giving it, and so on. And because we both realize there are also cat owners out there too, we discuss the often misunderstood communication signals and social needs of cats. As you may know, there is a tremendous amount of debate out there about the best training and practices for taking care of our dogs and other animals, and so much of that is grounded in speculation and training outcomes, which of course are important. The conversation today with Dr. Westlund approaches animal health and welfare through the lens of ethology and the species that our pets evolved from to provide actionable protocols that are grounded in science and that you can implement right away to improve your pet's wellbeing. So if you're a pet owner, this episode is going to be of immense value to you. If you're not a pet owner, you'll still learn a ton about animal biology and psychology, including yours. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Carolina Westlund. Dr. Carolina Westlund, welcome.

Karolina Westlund

Thank you.

Andrew Huberman

I'm super excited for this conversation.

Karolina Westlund

Yeah. Me too.

Andrew Huberman

I can barely contain myself. I think we have so much to learn from animals, and I think we have so much to learn from our relationship to animals. I also believe that we have all sorts of ideas about what animals experience, what they think about us, the relationship that we think we have with them.

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