Psychedelics & Neurostimulation for Brain Rewiring | Dr. Nolan Williams

(Upbeat music) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today, my guest is Dr. Nolan Williams. Dr. Williams is a medical doctor and professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Stanford University School of Medicine. His laboratory and clinic focus on depression and other mood disorders. They focus specifically on the use of transcranial magnetic stimulation, which is a brain stimulation technique that can either activate or quiet specific brain circuits, as well as circuits within the body, in order to treat depression and other mood disorders. Other laboratories and clinics use TMS. What sets apart the work of Nolan Williams and colleagues is that they combine TMS with other treatments, and some of those treatments are among the more cutting edge that you've probably heard about these days, including ibogaine, psilocybin, MDMA, cannabis, DMT, and other drugs that, at this point in time, are experimental in terms of clinical trials, but that at least the preliminary data show hold great promise for the treatment of depression and other mood disorders. In the course of my discussion with Dr. Williams, we covered things such as the history of each of these drugs, how they came to be, and their current status in terms of their clinical use and legality. We also talk about their safety profiles, both in children and in adults, and we talk about what the future of psychedelic research and clinical use really looks like. For instance, we discuss how a number of laboratories and clinics are modifying psychedelics to remove some of their hallucinogenic properties while maintaining some of their antidepressant or anti-trauma properties. You'll also learn about some fascinating research in Dr. Williams' laboratory focus on ketamine, which is a drug that is increasingly being used to treat depression, and contrary to common belief, the effects of ketamine, in terms of relieving depression, may not actually arise from its dissociative effects. One thing that you'll find extraordinary about Dr. Williams is that not only does he have vast knowledge of the various treatments for depression, but that he and his laboratory are really combining these treatments in the most potent way, that is combining psychedelic treatments with brain-machine interface, or combining brain-machine interface with particular learning protocols, that is neuroplasticity protocols, which can directly change the brain in specific ways. So today, you're going to learn a tremendous amount about the neural circuitry underlying depression, as well as positive moods. You'll also learn about all the various drugs that I described, and you're really going to learn about the current status and future of the treatment of mood disorders. Today, you'll also learn about a number of ongoing studies in Dr. Williams' laboratory. I should mention that they are recruiting subjects for these studies. If you go to BSL, which stands for Brain Stimulation Laboratory, so that's bsl.stanford.edu, you have the opportunity to apply for one of these clinical trials for the treatment of depression and other mood disorders. I confess that the conversation with Dr. Williams was, for me, one of the more stimulating and informative conversations I've ever had about psychedelics, which is simply to say that his breadth and depth of knowledge on that topic is incredible, and his breadth and depth of knowledge in terms of the underlying brain science and how it can all be combined with clinical applications is also extraordinary. I'm sure that by the end of today's episode, you're going to come away with a tremendous amount of knowledge about the clinical and non-clinical uses of those substances, and you're going to understand a lot more about how the healthy and diseased brain work. I'm pleased to announce that the Huberman Lab Podcast has now launched a premium channel. I want to be very clear that the Huberman Lab Podcast will continue to be released every Monday at zero cost to consumer, and there will be no change in the format of these podcasts. The premium channel is a response to the many questions we get about specific topics, and it will allow me to really drill deep into specific answers related to those topics. So once a month, I'm going to host an Ask Me Anything, so-called AMA, where you can ask me anything about specific topics covered on the Huberman Lab Podcast, and I will answer those questions. Those, of course, will be recorded. There will also be other premium content available to premium subscribers, such as transcripts and short videos of new tools and unique tools for mental health, physical health, and performance. If you want to check out the premium channel, you can go to hubermanlab.com/premium. There is a $10 a month charge or $100 per year, and I should mention that a large portion of the proceeds from the Huberman Lab Premium Channel will go to support scientific research that develops the very sorts of tools that we talk about on the Huberman Lab Podcast. The rest of the support for the Huberman Lab Podcast Premium Channel will go to supporting the regular Huberman Lab Podcast. Again, that's hubermanlab.com/premium. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is InsideTracker. InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform that analyzes data from your blood and DNA to help you better understand your body and help you reach your health goals. I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done, for the simple reason that many of the factors that impact your immediate and long-term health can only be analyzed with a quality blood test. One problem with a lot of DNA tests and blood tests, however, is you get data back about levels of metabolic factors, levels of hormones, et cetera, but you don't know what to do with that information. InsideTracker makes interpreting your data and knowing what to do about it exceedingly easy. They have a personalized platform where you can go and you can see those levels of hormones, metabolic factors, lipids, et cetera, and they point to specific nutritional tools, behavioral tools, supplement-based tools, et cetera, that can help you bring those numbers into the ranges that are optimal for you. If you'd like to try InsideTracker, you can go to insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off any of InsideTracker's plans. Again, that's insidetracker.com/huberman to get 20% off.Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. I started sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover a few months ago, and it is simply incredible. In fact, I don't even like traveling anymore (laughs) because they don't have Eight Sleep mattress covers in hotels and Airbnbs. One of the reasons I love my Eight Sleep mattress cover so much is that, as you may have heard before on this podcast or elsewhere, in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, you need your body temperature to drop by about one to three degrees, and I tend to run warm at night, which makes it hard to sleep and sometimes wakes me up in the middle of the night. When you sleep on an Eight Sleep mattress cover, you can program the temperature of that mattress cover for specific times in the early, middle, and late part of your night so that the mattress stays cool, and as a consequence, you sleep very, very deeply. It also tracks your sleep, so it's paying attention to how many times you're moving, how deep your sleep is. 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Again, that's LiveMomentous.com/huberman. And now for my discussion with Dr. Nolan Williams. Thanks for joining today. I'm really excited to have this conversation. It's been a long time coming, and I have a lot of questions about different compounds, psychedelics in particular.