How to Improve at Learning Using Neuroscience & AI | Dr. Terry Sejnowski

How to Improve at Learning Using Neuroscience & AI | Dr. Terry Sejnowski

Huberman LabNov 18, 20242h 34m

Andrew Huberman (host), Terry Sejnowski (guest)

Reinforcement learning, dopamine, and the brain’s value function for motivationProcedural vs. cognitive learning and how to actually learn betterSleep architecture, sleep spindles, and memory consolidationMitochondria, exercise, and age-related changes in energy and cognitionAI and large language models as models of brain algorithms and tools for discoveryNeurological and psychiatric disorders (Parkinson’s, schizophrenia, depression, autism)Temporal context, self-attention, and future directions in brain–AI research

In this episode of Huberman Lab, featuring Andrew Huberman and Terry Sejnowski, How to Improve at Learning Using Neuroscience & AI | Dr. Terry Sejnowski explores neuroscience, Algorithms, And AI Reveal Simple Rules For Better Learning Andrew Huberman interviews computational neuroscientist Dr. Terry Sejnowski about how algorithms in the brain and in AI can dramatically improve learning, motivation, and treatment of brain disorders. Sejnowski explains that a single reinforcement-learning–like value function, implemented via dopamine and the basal ganglia, underlies our motivation, skill acquisition, and many social behaviors. They explore why procedural practice is indispensable for real mastery, how sleep and exercise enhance memory via mechanisms like sleep spindles and mitochondria, and how AI can be used as an ‘idea pump’ and research partner rather than a human replacement. The conversation also touches on disorders such as Parkinson’s, schizophrenia, and depression, and how insights from neuromodulators, metabolism, and AI may reshape their treatment.

Neuroscience, Algorithms, And AI Reveal Simple Rules For Better Learning

Andrew Huberman interviews computational neuroscientist Dr. Terry Sejnowski about how algorithms in the brain and in AI can dramatically improve learning, motivation, and treatment of brain disorders. Sejnowski explains that a single reinforcement-learning–like value function, implemented via dopamine and the basal ganglia, underlies our motivation, skill acquisition, and many social behaviors. They explore why procedural practice is indispensable for real mastery, how sleep and exercise enhance memory via mechanisms like sleep spindles and mitochondria, and how AI can be used as an ‘idea pump’ and research partner rather than a human replacement. The conversation also touches on disorders such as Parkinson’s, schizophrenia, and depression, and how insights from neuromodulators, metabolism, and AI may reshape their treatment.

Key Takeaways

Your Motivation And Habits Run On A Single ‘Value Function’ Algorithm

The basal ganglia implement a simple reinforcement learning rule: predict future reward, compare it to actual reward, and update synapses based on the error signal. ...

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You Need Both Procedural Practice And Conceptual Understanding To Truly Learn

The brain has two major learning systems: a cortical, cognitive system (explicit knowledge, rules, concepts) and a subcortical, procedural system (basal ganglia; automatic skills). ...

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Sleep Spindles And REM Sleep Are Non‑Negotiable For Memory And Skill Consolidation

During non‑REM sleep, brief circular traveling waves called sleep spindles (1–2 seconds long) help transfer recent experiences from the hippocampus into stable cortical memory without overwriting existing knowledge. ...

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Exercise Is A Global ‘Drug’ That Rejuvenates Mitochondria, Brain, And Learning

Mitochondria provide cellular energy (ATP) and degrade with age and certain medications, contributing to reduced vigor and cognitive slowing. ...

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AI And Large Language Models Are Tools, Not Replacements, For Human Intelligence

Modern AI systems (transformers, large language models) learn by predicting the next word and, in doing so, build internal semantic models of language and world structure. ...

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Brain Disorders Reveal How Delicate Neuromodulatory And Metabolic Balance Really Is

Parkinson’s disease illustrates what happens when dopamine neurons in the brainstem die (often from environmental toxins like pesticides): procedural learning and movement initiation collapse, patients become slowed or even ‘locked in’, yet internally they may feel they are moving normally due to a shifted internal set point. ...

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Unstructured Mental ‘Idling’ And Sleep Support Insight More Than Constant Input

Periods of low external input—walking without headphones, light jogging, doing simple chores—support ‘mind wandering,’ during which the brain hops non‑linearly between ideas and can have ‘aha’ insights. ...

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Notable Quotes

We know the algorithm the brain uses to learn sequences of actions to achieve a goal. It’s simply to predict the next reward you’re going to get and update based on the error.

Terry Sejnowski

We have two major learning systems. We have a cognitive learning system, which is cortical, and we have a procedural learning system, which is subcortical, basal ganglia. And the two go hand in hand.

Terry Sejnowski

Exercise is the best drug you could ever take. It’s the cheapest drug you could ever take, that can help every organ in your body.

Terry Sejnowski

Everybody’s worried that AI is going to replace us and make humans obsolete. Nothing could be further from the case. Our strengths and weaknesses are different, and by working together we’ll be stronger.

Terry Sejnowski

Once you know something about how the brain works, you can take advantage of that. The key is to think about the problem before you go to sleep and let your brain work on it.

Terry Sejnowski

Questions Answered in This Episode

You mentioned that negative, high-salience events produce very strong one-trial learning in the brain’s value function. Are there biologically grounded ways—beyond traditional psychotherapy—to deliberately ‘retrain’ or overwrite these pathological value signals after trauma?

Andrew Huberman interviews computational neuroscientist Dr. ...

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In your view, what are the most damaging consequences of removing procedural practice from math and science education, and how would you redesign a typical K–12 curriculum to optimally leverage both cognitive and procedural learning systems?

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Given that zolpidem can double sleep spindles and memory consolidation for pre-sleep learning but impairs encoding afterward, do you see any ethically acceptable use cases for such pharmacological enhancement (e.g., before important exams), or do the tradeoffs and unknowns outweigh the benefits?

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You described ketamine as both a model for schizophrenia and a treatment for severe depression, depending on dose and context. How could AI-driven analysis of clinical and mechanistic data help us more quickly identify similar ‘paradoxical’ drugs or combinations for other intractable psychiatric conditions?

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Your Pioneer proposal focuses on temporal context and self-attention in brains and transformers. If we discovered that the basal ganglia implement something like transformer-style self-attention, how might that change the way we diagnose, treat, or even prevent disorders like Parkinson’s, ADHD, or autism that involve disrupted temporal sequencing and attention?

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Transcript Preview

Andrew Huberman

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Terry Sejnowski. Dr. Terry Sejnowski is a professor at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies, where he directs the Computational Neurobiology Laboratory, and as his title suggests, he is a computational neuroscientist. That is, he uses math as well as artificial intelligence and computing methods to understand this overarching, ultra important question of how the brain works. Now, I realize that when people hear terms like computational neuroscience, algorithms, large language models and AI, that it can be a bit overwhelming and even intimidating. But I assure you that the purpose of Dr. Sejnowski's work, and indeed today's discussion is all about using those methods to clarify how the brain works, and indeed to simplify the answer to that question. So for instance, today you will learn that regardless of who you are, regardless of your experience, that all your motivation in all domains of life is governed by a simple algorithm or equation. Dr. Sejnowski explains how a single rule, a single learning rule drives all of our motivation-related behaviors, and it, of course, relates to the neuromodulator dopamine. And if you're familiar with dopamine as a term, today you will really understand how dopamine works to drive your levels of motivation, or in some cases, lack of motivation, and how to overcome that lack of motivation. Today we also discuss how best to learn. Dr. Sejnowski shares not just information about how the brain works, but also practical tools that he and colleagues have developed, including a zero-cost online portal that teaches you how to learn better based on your particular learning style, the way that you in particular forage for information and implement that information. Dr. Sejnowski also explains how he himself uses physical exercise of a particular type in order to enhance his cognition, that is his brain's ability to learn information and to come up with new ideas. Today we also discuss both the healthy brain and the diseased brain in conditions like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's, and how particular tools that relate to mitochondrial function can perhaps be used in order to treat various diseases, including Alzheimer's dementia. I'm certain that by the end of today's episode, you will have learned a tremendous amount of new knowledge about how your brain works and practical tools that you can implement in your daily life. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out completely online. I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years. Initially, I didn't have a choice. It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school. But pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to one's overall health. In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, including cardiovascular exercise and resistance training, which of course I also do every single week. Now, there are essentially three things that great therapy provides. First of all, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about essentially all issues that you want to. Second of all, great therapy provides support in the form of emotional support or simply directed guidance, what to do or what not to do in given areas of your life. And third, expert therapy can provide you useful insights that you would not have been able to arrive at on your own. BetterHelp makes it very easy to find an expert therapist who you really resonate with and that can provide you the benefits I just mentioned that come with effective therapy. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in terms of the quality of sleep that you get each night. How soft it is or how firm it is, how breathable it is all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs. If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz and it asks you questions such as, "Do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach? Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night?" Things of that sort. Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't. Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you. For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress, D-U-S-K. I started sleeping on a Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had. If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com/huberman. Take that two-minute sleep quiz and Helix will match you to a mattress that is customized for your unique sleep needs. For the month of November 2024, Helix is giving up to 25% off on all mattress orders and two free pillows. Again, that's helixsleep.com/huberman to get up to 25% off and two free pillows. And now for my discussion with Dr. Terry Sejnowski. Dr. Terry Sejnowski, welcome.

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