Joe Rogan Experience #2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson

(drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

The Joe Rogan Experience.

Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays) Josh Dubin, my man. Introduce your friend. (laughs)

(laughs) This is gonna be wild. Uh, this is JD Tomlinson, the former prosecuting attorney for Lorain County, Ohio. And for the listeners, prosecuting attorney is, um, similar to a DA in most jurisdictions. They just call it the prosecuting attorney. He was the- the head attorney in, um, (smacks lips) Lorain County, Ohio-

That's correct.

... up until January.

So, the reason why that's significant is that- (laughs) last time we were here, we were talking about that case, the case of the Ohio Four. So, let's- why don't you recap that for everybody just for- for people that didn't listen to the previous podcast when we talked about this.

So, the Ohio Four are four gentlemen that were wrongfully convicted of a murder they didn't commit. And the last time I- I came on, uh, we talked extensively about the case. You can read about it at freetheohiofour.com. We have on that site my submission that I made to JD when he was the prosecuting attorney, and all the exhibits supporting it. But what happened is this woman is murdered in the '90s, and these four men become suspects actually before there's any evidence against them whatsoever. Uh, in two and a half decades of doing post-conviction work, I had never seen the police put in an affidavit, um, where they're... Excuse me, not an affidavit, a police report when they're investigating this murder that these four men are people we should look at. Based on nothing other than there was a lot of commotion in the community, understandably so, that there were people from out of town selling drugs. No question my client, um, and these other three guys were involved in selling drugs, and they wanted drugs off the street in Lorain. So, they immediately start looking at them. This woman is found behind a shopping center horribly, savagely murdered. She is stabbed multiple times. Her throat is cut. Her name is Marcia Blakey. She had been run over by a car. It was obvious because there were tire marks on her body. And several hours later that morning someone that she lived with, a gentleman by the name of Epps, was found murdered in strikingly similar fashion. So, the police are investigating this crime and run into a dead end. They have no leads. They don't have any evidence, and they're searching for the perpetrators. So, the Lorain County Prosecutor's Office goes public with the offer of an award. They offer $2,500 to anybody that has information about this crime. The next day or a couple of days later, in walks a man named William Avery Sr., who is no stranger to the Lorain County Police Department. He had been a- a paid informant for them for a long time, and he comes in and he speaks to detectives. And they say, "Everything you're tell-" In- in essence, they say, "Everything you're telling us has been public, you know. You need to give us more information." He then that week brings his son in, William Avery Jr., and his son claims to have information about the case. And they tell him, you know, "You're not telling us enough." He comes back about a week later and he says, "Well, I know the guys that did this." And he blames it, the murder, on Al Cleveland, um, John Edwards, Lenworth Edwards, and Benson Davis. And he claims that Al Cleveland confessed it to him. So, they start investigating this man William Avery Jr.'s account of what happened, and what he is telling them happened does not match the physical, um, state of this apartment where he claims this beating happened. So, this is like one of the telltale ways to tell if someone is falsely confessing to you or- or falsely implicating others. He tells them that there's this horrific beating of- of this victim that occurs in an apartment, and they go to the apartment. I mean, chairs turned over, tables turned over, a bloody knockdown, drag out fight for her life. And they go to the apartment and take pictures, and it's in the most pristine condition you can imagine. Not a chair turned over, not a table, and they immediately had reason to know that this guy was bullshitting because he then comes and says to them, "You know, I have other details." And the more details he gives them, the less it's matching up with the evidence that they have. So, they're trying these four men separately. When the first trial happens, William Avery Jr. has an idea, and his idea is I'm gonna extort these people for money. He shows up at the trial and he tells the prosecutors, "I want $10,000."And the prosecutor said to him, "What are you talking about? Um, you have to testify. You got the, the reward money." And he says, "I'm not testifying." They put him in jail for contempt and he says, "I made the whole thing up anyways. I did it for the reward money. I made it up." They should have known right then and there, before any of these four men were tried, that this was someone that led them down the wrong path. But instead of doing that, they keep him in jail. I don't remember if it was for 30 days or 60 days, and they let him cool his heels a little bit. The judge in the trial calls a mistrial, and when there's a mistrial, you can try someone again. So about a month goes by and William Avery Jr.'s story has now evolved. He now no longer claims that Al Cleveland confessed to him. He claims that he was a witness to it.