Joe Rogan Experience #2338 - Beth Shapiro
Narrator, Beth Shapiro (guest), Joe Rogan (host), Narrator, Narrator, Narrator, Narrator, Narrator, Narrator, Narrator
In this episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, featuring Narrator and Beth Shapiro, Joe Rogan Experience #2338 - Beth Shapiro explores de-extinction, dire wolves, and DNA: rewriting nature’s rulebook together Joe Rogan and geneticist Beth Shapiro dive into ancient DNA, de-extinction, and how humans have been reshaping nature for tens of thousands of years. Shapiro explains her path from broadcast journalism to pioneering paleogenomics and her current role at Colossal Biosciences, where she helps engineer ‘dire wolves’ and works on projects like mammoths, dodos, and red wolves. They explore the scientific, ethical, and ecological stakes of reviving lost traits and species, from Neanderthal genomes to mammoth rewilding and genetic rescue for endangered animals. Throughout, they contrast scientific curiosity and innovation with academic gatekeeping, public fear, and the real-world risks of biological manipulation and invasive species.
De-extinction, dire wolves, and DNA: rewriting nature’s rulebook together
Joe Rogan and geneticist Beth Shapiro dive into ancient DNA, de-extinction, and how humans have been reshaping nature for tens of thousands of years. Shapiro explains her path from broadcast journalism to pioneering paleogenomics and her current role at Colossal Biosciences, where she helps engineer ‘dire wolves’ and works on projects like mammoths, dodos, and red wolves. They explore the scientific, ethical, and ecological stakes of reviving lost traits and species, from Neanderthal genomes to mammoth rewilding and genetic rescue for endangered animals. Throughout, they contrast scientific curiosity and innovation with academic gatekeeping, public fear, and the real-world risks of biological manipulation and invasive species.
Key Takeaways
De-extinction is really about reviving traits with modern genomes, not resurrecting perfect clones of extinct species.
Shapiro stresses that Colossal uses ancient DNA as a template to edit living relatives (like gray wolves) so they express key dire wolf or mammoth traits, creating functional analogs rather than exact genetic copies.
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Ancient DNA has radically revised human evolution narratives, including interbreeding with Neanderthals and Denisovans.
High-quality genomes from tiny bone fragments showed multiple archaic human lineages interbred with Homo sapiens, overturning earlier dogma that these groups never mixed and revealing that modern humans carry 2–5% Neanderthal DNA.
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Species boundaries are fuzzier in nature than the rigid labels scientists and the public use.
Examples like polar bear–brown bear hybrids, cattle–bison claims, and dog–wolf gene flow show that organisms frequently cross so‑called species lines, while our naming systems are human conveniences rather than biological absolutes.
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Genetic tools being honed for ‘de-extinction’ may be most powerful for conservation and genetic rescue.
Shapiro highlights projects like boosting genetic diversity in red wolves and potentially engineering disease resistance in vulnerable species (e. ...
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Invasive species and past biological ‘fixes’ show how badly well‑intentioned interventions can go.
Stories of Florida’s Burmese pythons, Hawaii’s predatory snails, proposed US hippo ranching, and imported wild pigs illustrate how adding new animals often creates cascading, uncontrollable ecological damage.
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Academic culture often discourages bold ideas through scarcity thinking and gatekeeping.
Shapiro describes colleagues who resent public outreach and new approaches because they fear losing funding or status, arguing that this negativity and territoriality stifles innovation and open scientific debate.
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Using gene editing in humans will likely move from taboo to ‘necessary’ in crisis scenarios.
They discuss CRISPR-based cures (like for a metabolic disorder in a baby) and Shapiro predicts that a major pandemic or existential threat could push society to accept germline edits that are currently viewed as unethical.
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Notable Quotes
““We are as gods… and we’d just better get good at it.””
— Beth Shapiro (referencing Stewart Brand on humans’ control over nature)
““Deciding not to use these technologies is also a decision—with its own consequences.””
— Beth Shapiro
““Biology doesn’t recognize our species concepts. It doesn’t care what we call things.””
— Beth Shapiro
““Most of the things that ever lived will never become fossils.””
— Beth Shapiro
““If you saw that bear walking on two legs through the trees, 100 percent you’d think it’s Bigfoot.””
— Joe Rogan
Questions Answered in This Episode
How should we define a ‘species’ in a world of constant hybridization, gene flow, and genome editing?
Joe Rogan and geneticist Beth Shapiro dive into ancient DNA, de-extinction, and how humans have been reshaping nature for tens of thousands of years. ...
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Where should the ethical line be drawn between using gene editing for conservation versus human enhancement?
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What criteria should determine whether a de-extinct or engineered species is ever reintroduced into the wild?
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How can scientific institutions reduce gatekeeping and scarcity mindsets so that high‑risk, high‑reward ideas like de-extinction get a fair hearing?
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What safeguards and international norms are needed as countries with different values race to deploy powerful biotechnology tools?
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Transcript Preview
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.
The Joe Rogan Experience.
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music) Hello, Beth.
Hello.
It's very great to see you again.
I am pleased to be here.
It's been really interesting getting to talk to you and communicating with you, and all the stuff that you guys have done at Colossal has been insane. So why don't you just tell everybody what your background is and what you do?
I'm a scientist. I work in a crazy field called ancient DNA, sometimes called paleogenomics. It means we go out into the world, we dig shit up and we extract DNA from it. And what is fantastic about that is it's being a modern-day explorer. I get to go somewhere, I get to find out something new that completely rewrites what we thought we knew, and it's brilliant. And I get to fight with people a lot, and because I love to fight-
(laughs)
... I recently quit my academic job and moved to become the chief science officer at Colossal, the company that has just made those dire wolves.
Why do you like to fight with people?
(laughs) Oh, I don't really like to fight with people.
(laughs)
I just felt (laughs) like it was the right thing to say at this minute. I end up fighting with people, though, m- not because I want to, but because I feel like-
(laughs)
... I have to defend what I think is the way that we should be doing science.
Well, it's certainly a controversial subject, and you guys are certainly groundbreakers. So whenever there's a controversial subject and people are groundbreakers, you're, uh, without doubt going to get a lot of pushback, and a lot of people that just want attention, a lot of people that are angry that you're getting attention. It's, there's a lot of stuff going on.
Yeah. There's a big... I think in academia in particular, there's this big scarcity mindset.
Mm.
And this leads people to be kind of negative about everything. Like, "That's gonna be too hard. If I say that that's good, then that means that the thing that I want to do probably isn't gonna get that money." Or, "If you get attention, that means I can't get attention." And it leads to this negativity that I think stifles innovation.
Uh, there's a lot of gatekeeping, too. You know, we talked about that recently. Uh, there's a lot of people that want to be the only people that are allowed to either discuss or work on things.
Yeah. Like, "I've spent my whole life working on this, therefore I am the only expert. And if anybody says something that disagrees with what I believe to be true, they're just wrong. I'm not even gonna think about it, they're just wrong."
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