JRE MMA Show #39 with Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone
Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone (guest), Joe Rogan (host), Narrator, Narrator, Narrator, Narrator
In this episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, featuring Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone and Joe Rogan, JRE MMA Show #39 with Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone explores cowboy Cerrone torches Jackson-Wink, near-death cave dive, psychedelics Donald “Cowboy” Cerrone joins Joe Rogan for a wide‑ranging, raw conversation that centers on his painful break with the Jackson-Wink MMA gym, driven by money, loyalty conflicts, and the Mike Perry fight. Cerrone details how the gym culture changed from an elite, tight-knit team into what he calls a “puppy mill,” and why he built his own BMF Ranch to regain control of his training. The episode then veers into his intense near-death cave-diving experience, his transformative use of DMT and psilocybin to address fear and performance anxiety, and his relentless appetite for extreme pursuits—racing, mounted shooting, hunting, and future movie work. Throughout, the discussion touches on loyalty, ego, mental health, drugs, parenting, and how to live a full, authentic life while navigating public backlash and modern sensitivities.
Cowboy Cerrone torches Jackson-Wink, near-death cave dive, psychedelics
Donald “Cowboy” Cerrone joins Joe Rogan for a wide‑ranging, raw conversation that centers on his painful break with the Jackson-Wink MMA gym, driven by money, loyalty conflicts, and the Mike Perry fight. Cerrone details how the gym culture changed from an elite, tight-knit team into what he calls a “puppy mill,” and why he built his own BMF Ranch to regain control of his training. The episode then veers into his intense near-death cave-diving experience, his transformative use of DMT and psilocybin to address fear and performance anxiety, and his relentless appetite for extreme pursuits—racing, mounted shooting, hunting, and future movie work. Throughout, the discussion touches on loyalty, ego, mental health, drugs, parenting, and how to live a full, authentic life while navigating public backlash and modern sensitivities.
Key Takeaways
Loyalty and transparent money dynamics are foundational to long-term fighter–coach relationships.
Cerrone felt betrayed when Mike Winkeljohn chose to corner Mike Perry over him for financial reasons, especially after more than a decade at the gym; he argues fighters must know exactly who gets paid, for what, and whether values align.
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Gym culture directly affects fighter safety, development, and career longevity.
He criticizes Jackson-Wink’s open-door “puppy mill” model—randoms sparring with pros, constant hard live rounds, revolving-door coaches—as a recipe for unnecessary injuries and declining results, reinforcing the need for structured, controlled environments.
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Elite performers still need a ‘general’ to direct training and protect them from themselves.
Despite being experienced and self-motivated, Cerrone admits he overtrains, chases adrenaline, and needs a strong head coach to say no, manage volume, and handle strategic decisions so he can just be “a soldier.”
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Psychedelics can be powerful tools for confronting fear, ego, and performance anxiety when used intentionally.
Through guided DMT and high-dose mushroom experiences, Cerrone confronted his fear of losing and public failure, gaining perspective that one fight doesn’t define his worth and that life, family, and experiences matter more than outcomes.
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Near-death experiences radically clarify priorities but don’t always reduce risk-taking.
His detailed cave-diving story—getting lost in zero visibility, rationing air, planning how he’d die, and then finding an exit—sharply exposed his mortality, yet he still chooses to keep diving and seeking intense risks with better systems and partners.
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Modern outrage around language often ignores intent and context, but public figures still pay the price.
Cerrone recounts being forced to apologize and donate after using a homophobic slur casually; he insists he wasn’t targeting gay people, highlighting the gap between locker-room speech, public perception, and corporate image management.
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Living fully for some people means accepting chaos, danger, and nontraditional life paths.
From cave dives to skydiving, dirt racing, mounted shooting, hunting, and acting, Cowboy frames his life as ‘retired while still fighting,’ prioritizing experience and passion over a cautious, linear career trajectory.
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Notable Quotes
““It’s turned into a puppy mill. It’s all about money now, not the old Jackson’s.””
— Donald “Cowboy” Cerrone
““I need someone to tell me, ‘You crazy bastard, slow down.’ I can’t be the general and the soldier.””
— Donald “Cowboy” Cerrone
““In that cave I was deciding how I was gonna die. Writing a letter to my kid in my head.””
— Donald “Cowboy” Cerrone
““Psychedelics pour water on the dirt and clean out the bullshit. They remind you it’s all love, friends, experiences.””
— Joe Rogan
““I’m gonna fight till I don’t love it anymore. The day I wake up and say ‘nah,’ that’s when I’m done.””
— Donald “Cowboy” Cerrone
Questions Answered in This Episode
How should major MMA gyms balance loyalty to long-time fighters with business pressures and new stars like Mike Perry?
Donald “Cowboy” Cerrone joins Joe Rogan for a wide‑ranging, raw conversation that centers on his painful break with the Jackson-Wink MMA gym, driven by money, loyalty conflicts, and the Mike Perry fight. ...
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What would an ideal high-level MMA training environment look like if you optimized for safety, loyalty, and long-term careers?
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How far should athletes go with psychedelics and microdosing to manage fear, depression, or performance anxiety, and where is the ethical line?
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Does our current cultural sensitivity around offensive language help reduce harm, or does it mostly fuel performative outrage and control?
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Given Cowboy’s near-death cave story, what separates healthy risk-taking from self-destructive behavior, and how do you know when you’ve crossed that line?
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Transcript Preview
(glass clinking) Yes, sir. (liquid pouring)
Cheers.
Cheers. (glasses clanking)
And we're live.
And we're live. There's so much to talk about.
Obviously. So much to talk about.
It's been years.
It's been a while. It's been a while.
It's been a while.
And, uh, one of the reasons why you're here is because... (smacks lips) I was supposed to have Jackson Win- I mean, we should just get right into this. I was supposed to-
You think we should get into it or should we-
Yeah.
... let the-
Let the Budweiser settle in?
Let the Budweiser kick. I haven't even eaten breakfast. I specif-
(laughs)
... ially didn't eat breakfast. I'm like, "I'm gonna drink beer with Joe." I already know he's getting me beer, and that way it can hit me a lot faster and I'll loosen up my lips a lot sooner.
We can do whatever you want, man.
(laughs)
It's up to you. You're looking thick, dude. How much do you weigh now?
(coughs) Man, so I've been, um... So here's a crazy story. (smacks lips) I go to, I go to, um, the PI to... 'Cause Dana tells me I can't go to 55, so I go to talk to the P-
He told you you can't go? Why?
Well, 'cause he says I'm, I'm getting old and... Older. Well, I should say he said old. I'm getting old. And it's wor-
The weight cut's too hard?
The weight cut, right? So I said, "All right. I'm gonna go to the, to the PI. You guys have this amazing facility with..."
The PI stands for Performance Institute, for people who know.
Yeah.
For certain, there you go. UFC Performance Institute.
And, uh, they have trainers and dietician, nutrition, right? So I'm, I'm going there to meet with them to get a, a guideline and some kind of plan that we can attack so I can go to Dana like, "Look, I met with your guys. They said it's okay." While I'm there, second day into all this, like, crazy testing you do, right? They have all kinds of tests that they run where you get on these bikes and... You know what I mean? Like, fuck, I was at, like, a Olympic training center testing. Um, uh, I wanted to say Joe Silva walked in, but then that's not right 'cause he's not there anymore. So, uh...
Nick Maynard?
No, um, Sean Shelby-
Sean Shelby?
... comes in and says, "Cowboy, uh, Mike Perry really wants to fight you. You want to take this fight?" And I was like, "Uh, well, I thought I was going to 55." And he said, "Yeah, he called you out and he really wants to fight you." And I was like, "Well, fuck. Okay, I'll fight him. Sure. Done. F- That's fine. But next one, can I go to 55?" You know? Like, goddamn. So the, how this Perry thing all started was, um, Felder's opponent got hurt. Um, I called to fight Gaethje 'cause, 'cause Vick got hurt. So I was like, "I'll go to 55, fight Gaethje." Um, and then crazy shit just happened, and then the Perry fight they offered me and I called Perry, said, "Hey, man. I know we're training together, but this is 10 days notice. Let's do this." He's like, "Fuck yeah, man. It'd be great. Let's do this." So that's how that started, and then w- I didn't get to fight. That was the end of it for me. I went to the UFC to go back to 155, and then all of a sudden he's calling me out and-
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